Hey guys, two things that have come to my attention since posting this video: 1. I am not saying that I don't think straight authors should write gay characters. If an author does their research properly, I have no issue with them writing a gay character into their story. There are countless examples of when this has been done perfectly. I'm sorry if this did not come across but what I am specifically trying to say is that I am not a fan of straight authors not doing their research and writing a novel that fetishises a gay coming of age story. Especially one that deals with underage characters. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. In the video I refer to "White cis women writing gay coming of age stories", I only do this because this seems to be the biggest demographic of authors that are writing these stories. This also seems to be the demographic that fetishise the whole growing up gay experience. 2. In regards to Veronica Roth, there was definitely some misinformation floating around and a lot of people have pointed me towards this video (ua-cam.com/video/AOwsQ3mJKPI/v-deo.html) which sums it all up perfectly. I'm sorry that I had not seen this before I made this video, I now understand that the claims made against Veronica Roth aren't true. So I apologise for not knowing this at the time of making this video. This video is completely just my opinions on these topics and I respect that everyone has their own opinions. I hope you understand.
Joe Hill There are several of them, especially in Japan. The genres involved are called BL/shounen-ai and yaoi. A lot of girls are really into those, believe me.
I think it is how you said what you said that has people riled up. Lets turn around what you said. Would it be appropriate for a cis white female to say "gay men shouldn't write about xy or z?" If it wouldn't sound right in your head spun back at you, why is it okay to say it to the other side? It makes you sound very rude and discriminatory. I'm not trying to say that you are. It's clear you weren't.
I get what you mean tbh since YA as a genre really likes recycling tropes, which doesn’t have to be bad necessarily but forming “tropes” for stories about like gay coming of age will always inevitably lead to some issues
The whole "audiobooks don't count as reading" drama made me so mad. As someone who's going blind at a young age that one hurt to see happen and I'm glad so many people fought back and defended audiobooks. Plus, now the person who started all that looks like an absolute fool cause audiobooks are insanely popular now ^_^
I have trouble reading print both because of failing eyesight and secondly because of arthritis in my fingers which means I often have trouble holding books. Audiobooks are very important to me.
I've never been a fan of audiobooks because I don't like narrators to sound like something I wouldn't think the characters would sound like. But for people who have struggle with physical reading or just prefer it this is a great option
It's important for people with vision problems but it's also given busy people an opportunity to read more. My uncle is a bus driver and has little time to read from a book, but he listens to audiobooks all day while he drives
I've taken part in over a dozen fandoms in my life, well before social media... Fandoms are always messy, it's crazy! The problem is that 100+ people inevitably won't get along long-term if they only have 1 or 2 things in common, which is that they love a certain piece of media. But there's always niches within big fandoms where like personalities naturally stick together.
honestly book twitter has the STUPIDEST drama and I think it’s because people hold each other to such high standards and if you don’t act like the perfect human being you’re suddenly cancelled?? don’t have time for it tbh 😂
HARD AGREE. Honestly, I like watching it unfold sometimes but also a lot of it can be so harmful for no reason. Especially when it’s attacking young people for something they said. It’s so ridiculous.
Okay but do people remember when Maggie stiefvater (the raven boys author) and Halsey started a fight, that was by far the most entertaining drama to come out of the YA book community
This happened way before I was even on Twitter or knew booktube existed, so I had to google because that sounds WILD, and wow. That drama was... a lot. Still categorized it as stupid drama in my head, though 😂 probably a lot more entertaining to have seen it in person than to read the tweets five years later.
Why is everyone going off on Suzanne Collins for writing a Prequel about President Snow? It’s her book! People need to chill. The Hunger Games is my favorite series off all time but I’m not mad! Don’t hate on a book before it comes out.
Because no one wants to read a book justifying why a white man decided he wanted to be a psychopathic killer?? It’s a story we’re all tired of. Maybe don’t degrade poc’s reactions?
Jasmine Ward poc’s reactions are valid, but i havent seen more than a few poc upset about it, mostly just white people because popular booktube is predominantly white (a whole issue on its own). i think itll be interesting because i like villain origin stories but the reactions of poc are completely valid. im not sure the original commenter was talking about poc’s reactions tho.
In my case I don't mind straight authors writing the gay YA if they are well informed, for example, a friend of mine wrote a novel where one of the main protagonists was a gay closeted teen and she kept asking me and my other friend (we r both LGBT) about our experiences, how it was and she asked for it with vivid details so she could make sure the character was well written. Honestly the character ended up being amazing and a great rep :)
Hey, thank you so much for sharing your opinion respectfully. A lot of people can't seem to do this. I completely agree with what you are saying. I really should have addressed this in my video but I honestly didn't think it would get as many comments and views as it has. I agree that as long as an author has researched the portrayal of their character then I have no qualms with that. So I'm really glad to hear your author friend has done this. My main issue is with the authors that don't take the time to do this and instead romanticise the experience of growing up lgbtqi+ and fetishise gay romances. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Again, I completely agree with what you are saying. Thanks again for sharing :)
Just Angus yes I agree with both of you! I do think there’s a difference if it’s a straight author writing an LGBT+ romance novel versus a novel that is supposed to document experiences because sometimes there are just some things that can’t be researched well enough to create an authentic novel and it would fall short for fans expectations. That isn’t to say it’s inherently bad, but they’re two different things to write. 😅sorry I don’t know if I’m explaining my point properly
Haley Andrews one that i can think of is the love simon book, i haven’t read it but i’ve heard a lot of the lgbtq+ community saying it wasn’t good representation, i know there are videos of people talking about why it’s not good representation in detail if you want to know more.
I’m gay, and to me, cis women writing gay characters isn’t a big issue as long as it isn’t a fetishizing, poorly researched presentation of really important stuff. If we hold this idea of “you c any write outside of your own individual experience” then there would be no ability to have any diversity in books. I’m white, so should I not have any POC characters? No. I should do research, get sensitivity readers and make sure I’m presenting experiences accurately. Love Simon was a pretty strong depiction tbh, but everyone’s experience is different
Yeah I understand that. I think the issue comes when it's happening as often as it is, and it almost takes the platform away from people who can tell the story from an honest and personal place if you get what I'm saying.
Read his pinned comment, but Love Simon/Simon v. The Homosapien Agenda is kind of an exception. In more recent years gay male books written by lgbt authors are more popular, but I would look into it more - the issue is more like, there’s dozens if not hundreds of white cishet women writing stories romanticizing gay male experiences without trying to research/understand it. It’s like 13 reasons why romanticizing self-harm.
What would count as fetishization? I read Love Simon/Simon v. The Homosapien Agenda and I didn't feel there wasn't anything fetishizing about it. I wish I would have a point of reference to go from. What about m-m romance written by women in general or does it come to the actual book? I've read 2 m-m romance books written by women/gender fluid authors and I've had someone say to me that, as a straight woman, I should not be reading m-m romance at all, written by straight or queer authors, because I'm a woman and I'm fetishizing gay men. I can see how it could seem this way but at the same time, I'm sure that that's not my intention, I just like to explore as a reader and as a human being. I'm a little lost at what exactly are the 'rules' regarding straight people reading queer fiction.
as a lesbian, I'll take any representation I can get in books, especially because the ratio of mlm books to wlw books is so disportionate and off. I have no problem with straight women, or even straight men, writing wlw books as long as they arent fetishization and research is done well on the topic. to be honest, i just want good wlw representation
Could you share your opinion on acotar then regards that subject? I've seen the video of readwithcindy where she reviews it and talks about the coming out of a character from the series and I tend to agree with her, that the representation was a bit forced and poorly executed in terms of writing. But I'm straight, so I cant really judge it, so I'm surious to know what would you think 😊
Do you have any recs for wlw books?? I've been struggling with realizing I'm bi for a long time (roman catholic family and etc) and I felt so relieved having read The 7 Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. Everything clicked for me, but having been raised the way I was, I don't know where to proceed from here. I'd love to read more and see more representation. Thank you so for your time and take care during this scary time
@@mahtanel7049 i think morrigan's coming out was very poor in both terms of writing and terms of good representation. if the fandom has to argue over whether morrigan is bisexual or lesbian, then thats a problem in itself. i don't like sarah j mass' books or her as a person very much, so i may be bias, but either way i do agree it is poor representation and it seems very forced for representation points.
The issue with Booktuber books like Sasha’s and Christine’s is that is a typical writer who isn’t IG or UA-cam famous would never have gotten those two books published as is. I personally read them both and they definitely need work, but a typical writer would have needed to put those books into a few more rounds of drafts to get it to sell. It’s not to say that they didn’t work hard on their works, but they definitely had a major advantage. Especially when people don’t give proper critique to their work, it’s how creatives grow.
I love Colleen Hoover books but they aren’t YA I wouldn’t want young teenagers reading those stories. She does deal with dark themes but I think it shows warning of those themes and brings those important issues to light. My fear is that people will read her work and think those issues are alright to be in irl because it’s romanticized.
Not trying to argue your point but i think its also important to think about how white het authors can get criticized for writing gay characters but also for not writing enough representation. Its kind of a catch 22. I’m bi and i take it case by case. If i feel like the experience is well captured i really dont mind who the author is and how they identify, I’m just happy for the representation
I think he’s specifically talking about the cis straight authors that fetishize these underage gay coming of age stories, and aren’t doing their research or handling these stories like they should.
@@itbelikethat4940 Okey i am straight by have some gay friends. From them, I know there is no one or 50 kinds of coming out stories, because each person have their own. So what kind of research they can do? Another point - Stright author, you don't need to be a detective to write a murder mystery so you don't need to be gay to write about coming out. Remember that thanks to this authors, gay MAIN CHARACTER started to show in MAIN steam books, and after books there will be movies and tv show. With lead to acceptance
The bofm ya drama is one of the stupidest dramas ive ever seen bc readwithcindy is the one that started it with a tweet in which she was literally just sarcastic and poking fun at herself cause she did a sponsorship with them. And people were canceling her for it. So dumb
I always feel a little weird getting upset with authors who have problematic elements in novels because having something in a narrative doesn't mean that's the opinion if the author? I don't know. It's a very blurry line.
yeah i’m glad someone else agrees. i think it’s stupid to get mad at people for including problematic content in their novels. i think my main issue is when it’s marketed as ya with no warning or mentions of said problematic content. but other then think i think people should write about what they want.
I mean you should be able to tell how the element is treated by the narrative tho. Like I've seen people get angry that other people are angered by racism in a book since they say it's just part of the plot, but what people are actually angry about it the handling of the racism, not simply it's inclusion.
milo but most people aren’t angry at the handling. They’re just angry at what they want to be angry about because their fweewings are hurt. You’d think heavy readers would be smart but most seem quite stupid.
right? watching this august 15, 2020 sure hits different.. no one could even think about it as "a transphobic tweet" anymore so much as jkr proudly airing her violently transphobic views whenever she gets the chance and literally writing a book about it in the most pathetically transparent attempt to scaremonger
angus: everyone knows about this / i won't say who but you know who I'm talking about me, detached from booktube + book twitter drama: *googling frantically* also, i'm pretty sure women can't be multifaceted people with more than one major defining character trait except for when they're not like other girls and hate makeup because they are naturally beautiful, smart (pretentious) and funny (but not as smart or funny as men) (i.e. a manic pixie dream girl written by a middle aged white dude) so I think I get where fake reader girls dude was coming from lmao
This video just confirms to me that I'm not aware of many things in the book community, i just stay in my own lane. the only "tea" I really remember putting my two cents in where the audiobook drama ( because not everyone can physically read a book.) and the Fake Reader girls because it led to a wider discussion on how your make videos shouldn't affect how you are in the community. ( NOt everyone can afford fancy filing equipment/camera's/ books/ subscription boxes etc)
This was sooooooo entertaining. I didn’t know 90% of this. Even though the entire topic was “drama” you were so refreshing and I am definitely now subscribed. ♥️🌿📚
The audiobook one really annoys me. It is still the book. There are a lot of people who cannot access books any other way, or it's the easiest way for them. My dad had a stroke and never recovered from the short term memory issues that brought about. He loves reading, but now when he sits down with a book, he barely remembers what happened on the page he just finished. Meanwhile, listening to audiobooks is easier for him, and he remembers better. I was heartbroken when I found out he couldn't read his books anymore. He's the one that got me into reading. So when we sat down and came up with the audiobook solution, I was so happy to see him reading again!
I got a hot take on women Writing Gay YA. I disagree. Anyone should be able to write on any topic or issue they so chose. Assuming they do their research. This case research it and have gay men read to ensure it is accurate. Straight Outta Compton is written by Andrea Berloff and Jonathan Herman. Both who are white. If they are not researching it and or are just doing it out of some fetish as you said then no.
Hey, thanks for bringing this up with me. I realise now I should've included this in my video. I am fine with these authors writing these stories as long as they do their research and don't fetishise the content. A lot of the YA market has become saturated with these romanticised fetishised gay coming of age stories that aren't accurate. My qualm is definitely with these stories, not the properly repped and researched ones.
Just Angus i was about to comment the same thing as the original commenter, but they took the words right out of my mouth! i think the best example of a gay book written by a woman is Simon Vs. she clearly did tons of research and heard personal accounts because it was like surprisingly accurate to my experience as a gay teen living in a conservative and homophobic town in America. i havent read much else in gay fiction besides that which didnt come from own-voices authors, but it was the best i have read.
I'm planning on writing a story about a gay/pan relationship with two men but I was nervous considering I'm a white cis woman and I didn't want people to think I'm fetishizing it. I'm going to look into a LOT of things beforehand, and know a few personally since I share some with him (depression, anxiety, etc.). Having a character hate himself for his sexuality and trauma seems almost wrong from someone who hasn't been through exactly the same thing, though I hope to write it in a way thats true, and not to simply progress a relationship for the audience (it's NA supernatural, not a coming of age/contemporary). I really love the LGBTQ+ community despite being straight myself, so I hope I don't disrespect anyone and have hesitated writing it into my second story because of that.
Yeah agreed cause people should be able to write whatever story but if you know for a fact that you don't know anything about the topic then you shouldn't write it
Dominique Harris Agree... I think it‘s super complicated to make a broad generalization because there are plenty of nuances to why someone might be writing a story about something but generally I think if you think „Should I be writing this..“ then maybe it‘s not your place to... Of course as a white person you should put characters of colour into your stories and as a straight person you should put LGBT characters in your story etc etc but you should not write the stories these people have to tell, e.g. what it‘s like to grow up as a gay person / trans person.. there are actual authors from these groups who want to tell their very own experiences and are overshadowed by authors who don‘t even belong in these groups
The thing with the Cassandra Clare incest drama is like yea it’s nasty putting Ron and Ginny in a relationship but there are so many people who make nasty ships like that. PEOPLE LITERALLY SHIP ANNA AND ELSA
milo I think his point tho is it’s not irl, like a lot of CC’s books depict violence or abuse that wouldn’t be fun to experience in real life, but it’s obv not really happening in books or frozen fanfic
@@rileytrep6514 yeah I get that but usually abuse and incest are depicted as bad and not "bad but actually bad in a hot way." It's nasty not when it's portrayed but when the author is like "this is good or hot actually"
@@prikas4313 I get that, I definitely don't support abuse or murder irl but it's up to the reader to realize it's fiction. Like one of my favorite shows is Dexter and murder is portrayed as a good thing, but me and most everyone who watches just watches it for the intrigue and would be against a real murder hapening. If someone is reading CC and thinks abuse is hot and something they want to do I think they had some issues before reading the book
milo yea I totally agree I was trying to say that like she shouldn’t be attacked for a fictional fan fic like that when there are so many other people who ship siblings or weird stuff like that
I personally feel as though the Cassandra Claire incest is important tea because that just shows that when she wrote the first book in the shadow hunter series and included ‘incest’. It can be seen as just a little roadblock in the book before they figured out they weren’t siblings, but it just shows that she saw it as an enticing thing that makes the romance even ‘hotter’. It disgusts me and I can never look at that book the same again without thinking of that.
but she wasn’t hurting anyone; it was just so she could make a later plot twist. Also in my opinion this can be compared to youtubers having to make apology videos cause old racist tweets came up from over ten years ago. yes it’s bad that the fanfic happened but it’s so old
I can see where you’d think that but I personally don’t think that was the intention of it at all, firstly it was just so blatantly obvious that that wouldn’t be the case, like no author would write the main couple to be siblings and I personally didn’t buy it for a minute, secondly it served a narrative point to show just how they couldn’t live without each other, because of their connection by the angel their souls are intertwined; abit like how parabatai are but stronger, and it was killing them that they couldn’t be together, that was why valentine told them the lie in the first place because if they worked together against him they were an unstoppable force, and Jocelyn wasn’t around to put the record straight. I will say that I personally believe that the plot-point could have been left out/changed and we could have been show how they’re bonded together a different way, but that’s not how it happened and I’m not going to condemn the whole series because of one plot thread I didn’t like
Yeah the important tea thing is kinda subjective, some issues are more important to people in different ways. I personally felt kinda meh about TMI but I can see how some people would either really like it or really dislike it
I remember a bunch of years back there was drama about booktubers getting books bought for them by fans off of their amazon wishlists. They were blamed for taking advantage of their platform and encouraging fans to buy stuff for them. It was a HUUUUGE thing. Anyhoo, thanks for catching me up on all the newer tea - what a journey.
Your “drama” reminds me of a movie commentary UA-camr I used to watch who did a commentary on Avengers: Endgame. In the movie there’s this big girl power scene in the middle of the battle. The UA-camr commented on how he didn’t like the scene because if the MCU really was that invested in girl power they should have done a female lead movie way earlier. He felt like the scene was just a cheap way to appear woke. However twitter/tumblr (it happened on both platforms) took the whole thing out of context and just talked about him saying he didn’t like the scene and made it look like he was sexist. Honestly, sometimes I think people are so used to being angry at the time that sometimes they change up what someone said in their minds just so they can continue to stay mad.
Haylee Haux yeah most definetly. But the took some of his words out of context and made it look like he was sexist. That’s the point I tried to make with this comment.
You're talking about Dylan is in trouble right? He got so much hate off of that video. I wish people watched his video and realised what he said made actual sense. He's a film commentary channel for a reason and he actually articulates himself so well.
Readywithcindy, KrimsonRogue, and Caleb Joseph are the only booktubers I even know of anymore. Some others I used to watch either mostly left youtube completely by now or shifted their content to commentary/reaction channels
I will say the three authors I hear brought up the most when talking about how cis straight women writing gay teen romance and coming of age are Becky Albertalli, Casey McQuiston, and Alice Oseman. None of which are both straight and cis! Becky is bi, Casey is nonbinary, and Alice Oseman is aroace. I still think its important tea, but I also think we need to be careful that we don’t forcibly out authors who aren’t ready for it by demanding certain stories only be written by certain people.
The Veronica Roth stuff was started in my opinion for no reason. Someone started something about how she made this one race with harsh language and all those characters were POC but if you read the book, skin color had nothing to do with the races because skin color wasn’t a genetically hereditary trait. (I can’t explain that logic but that’s how it worked 😂)
I had no idea Booktube Drama was a thing until today when someone brought up Steven Donahue accusing younger booktubers of not actually reading. Huh. Never knew.
I hate drama about what authors put in their books. If they write about abusive relationships why not!? It’s toxic and hopefully readers can learn from reading about the absurdity? If it’s distasteful we’ll good we got problems if it’s not! Classic literature has racism, abuse, generalized putting women down. We don’t cancel them because it’s outdated and toxic. In fact we teach it in school and hold lengthy discussions and analysis etc etc. it’s not cool. Don’t like it don’t read it! Don’t call out the author for being a certain bad roll model or whatever. Like calling an actor a racist abusive because they play a roll of a character. 🤔
Honestly, to me, Fanfiction in general, as long as it’s not about real people, isn’t hurting anyone and needs to be left alone. Like why don’t people hate on George RR Martin for his ASTOUNDING amounts of incest in GoT as much as Cassandra Clare, when she wrote one RonxGinny fanfic? When none of these people are real? My god, let it go people. If she was actually participating in incest, that’s different. But a fanfiction about fictional people? Get a life.
dunno why you dont have at least 500,000 subs yet looool. People are sleeping on the quality of your videos man. Thoroughly enjoyed all the tea i have no idea happened. ALSO unrelated. WHAT MIC DO YOU USE
Also- about carve the mark- you should watch Francina Simone’s video about the whole thing. A person of colors opinion on the whole thing- not gonna try and summarize or talk over her
Your mention about straight authors writing gay coming of age stories was so on point!! It really seems to be trending now, and I wish more people talked about it! Great video, it was kinda nostalgic remembering all the random drama booktube gets into 😀
I think its more than okay for anyone to write a gay coming of age story AS LONG as they do their research. Like, interview gay boys who struggled, read autobiographies by them. Talk to people online about it and really research the topic. As long as they dont use stereotypes, be insensitive because they havent done research.
@@bellac6311 " interview gay boys who struggled" - it will still be a representation of one person, you can't really research this topic. Because every person have their own story. It like writing about growing up experience - you can;t write one that could be accurate for everyone.
I’m really happy that people are defending audio books. My nana who loves reading and spends all her time reading is going blind, and we’re hoping to find a suitable audio book app to help her continue doing her favourite thing in the world. Saying audio books aren’t reading is insulting to people with any sort of disability, and honestly just in general to people who PREFER consuming that content in that specific way.
Booktwitter is damn insane. I loved this video! Francina simone made a great video about book dramas including carve the mark and disagreed that it was racist x
Someone else also recommended I watch it yesterday so I gave it a watch! Very insightful and definitely cleared a lot up for me! It's wild how everything got so twisted
I really loved this vid! I’ve watched booktube for years and always heard bookubers talk about booktube drama but never knew any instances and always wondered what kind of drama a community of people reading books could have. Ha! This was entertaining to finally find the tea!
Many Dark-Hunters books came out in the early 2000s, before CoB (2007), and the author actually started writing at the end of the 90s... if you looked into CC's past, you know she's a serial plagiarizer, bully and scammer. Many things in her published books, ahem, "take inspiration" from other books (Nightrunner, The Mortal Engines and The Infernal Devices by Philip Reeves, The Secret Circle, etc. etc.). Why even make a video like this if you're going to let your bias get in the way?
i have to say, i dont understand the hate for the hg prequel being in snow’s perspective. i personally love villain origin stories and a lot of people are immediately discrediting it before it has even released. i do understand a lot of people’s perspectives on it, but she is great at writing cautionary tales (aka the entire hg trilogy) and TBoSaS is almost guaranteed to be one too. idk, just my viewpoint!
Yeah! I loved Marissa Meyer's, Heartless, and I can't wait to see what this prequel is like. Sure, I would've preferred to read about Haymitch's time in the games but I'm curious about this one.
i just discovered your channel bc of this video and omg i love your personality and style so much!! the way you joked about the drama while still adressing those you found important and still sounding so sweet was amazing youre so cute pls
For the booktubers publishing books: Most people publish their book and then build their audience. Booktubers do it in reverse. There is NOTHING wrong with it!!! A good book is a good book regardless.
4:58 - actually, Sherrilyn Kenyon started the dark hunter series in 2002 with her prequel book fantasy lover. Cassandra Claire wrote city of bones in 2007. However, while Sherrilyn came first, I thought it was really fucking ignorant for her to try and sue Cassandra's writing for similarities when there are dozens upon dozens of other writers that have the same "brotherhood vampire" elements going on i.e. J.R. Ward, Mari Mancusi, Christine Feehan, etc.
That whole situation was a hectic kettle of fish. At the same time that was happening Sherrilyn Kenyon believes her husband and two assistants were trying to sabotage her career and try to kill her. He allegedly took out life insurance policies on her, stole money from her and their kids accounts. Once she got tested, she had high levels of minerals/chemicals in her body. I know she's dropped the lawsuit against them, but I'm not sure if he's ever been arrested.
Cataluna6 They are still in court battling this out. He has had her declared incompetent and court has control over her whole life including her money where she goes (like book tours or cons). She can’t even continue writing her books. He is also trying to get copywrite rights over her work. She has been writing about the dark hunters many many years before she ever met her ex. He is psycho in my opinion. Also he was the one who pushed for the lawsuit. Sherrilyn didn’t want to do it.
@@jennifershuster1345 See I've seen that and I've also read an interview and piece.... By Variety? I think where the person talked to her and others close to her and she herslef dosnt seem to be doing okay. I remember her big reason to think her husband was poisoning her was because all the hair brushes were gone or the hair on them was cleaned and he must have taken them so se couldn't get them tested.... Even though she still has the hair on her head. And it don't sound like she got tested and it came back positive or anything. And people who know are seem spilt on her accusations towards get husband including her children. It's all wild really.
i think lots of none gay authors write gay ya is becuz they are pressured by half the readers to be more woke and inclusive and have represantation for everyone, even if its not something the authors knows and research online is limited and mostly filled with tropes and fetish like stuff, you for sure can do propor research, it depends on how much info there is, since not all authors are english speaking and different countries have different info about topics)... while the problem you mentioned needs to be adressed, the other issue about pressuring authors also need to be adressed, cuz some of these authors do exactly what the readers want, but than the same readers complain about it. i think if readers wont pressure authors into a specific writing box, the 1st problem you mentioned will be solved faster (this does not included the few authors who write gay ya just becuz its the trend or things like that).
Omg, this was actually brilliant! Also, when I saw BOTM drama at the bottom my brain auto corrected it to that one subscription box and I fully thought it was about to be about that one SJM book box with the whole soap-gate deal 😂
It is hard for writers to find a balance between wanting to have equal representation in your stories and knowing that the stories of marginalized characters aren't always yours to tell.
The audio book one really pisses me off because my little brother has profound dyslexia (the rarest and most extreme case of dyslexia you can have) and audio books and people reading to him are really the best ways for him to consume a story. He can read but it’s much harder for him then the average person and if someone told him that listening to audio books didn’t count as reading I would throw hands I stg.
I didn't lose interest at all throughout the video! I really liked how, even though you were discussing drama, you delivered it in a way that was measured and intelligent.
Sounds to me like booktube spends more time judging each others politics and personal preferences rather than talking about books. If I want to write a book about a gay kid I'll do it. If you dont like it dont read it or write your own.
OK a few months ago I watched an entire analysis of Colleen Hoover's books and why they're problematic and then a few weeks later in a group chat somebody was saying that they are on a Colleen Hoover binge and they love everything they've read by her so I asked if it was as problematic and gross as I had heard. They all freaked out on me! At least 4 people immediately jumped to defending Hoover and told me it was so cute, sweet, adorable, romantic, etc and that who ever told me that stuff was really out of touch. !!???
If we wanna talk about an author plagiarizing another’s book, can we talk about Alison Goodman and The Dark Day Club. It is a literal rip off of The Mortal Instruments: •Ordinary girl finds out her mother was a part of a demon hunting society •Demon hunting society •Mom is MIA and left big problem for her daughter to fix •Broken yet hot love interest with a tragic past involving his loved one being a villain •Brother and sister who are best friends with love interest (both have black hair and blue eyes) •Brother is gay and was in love with love interest •Older brother with possible connections to evil villain •Family friend who is in love with main lead and doesn’t like the love interest (gets together with her at some point) •Need to collect three magical items to save the world •Girl has special gifts that make her special enough to find the three items •Learns how to fight demons with superhuman battle skills she was born with Tell me that doesn’t sound like The Mortal Instruments
I agree about the audiobook thing. Its a good idea for those with sight problems. Its no different to subtitles for those who can't hear well. Twitter needs cancelling full stop . Also the jk thing. I feel I'm the only one who can see both sides to it. I understand her having an opinion. We all have one. But I also think it should have been something she should have kept to herself. After all nobody is ever going to agree to everything in the world. Its never happened and it never will.
Thank you for your thoughts on audiobooks. I've always had audiobooks in my rotation but now even more so because of my eye macular degeneration. Consuming books via audiobooks have allowed me to continue my reading habits. So thank you for mentioning this❤️
Your mention of the Small Booktuber drama brought me BACK. What a trip down memory lane. Also I totally agree with Handbook for Mortals being entertaining tea. I read so much about that when it was going down. -Becks
"It was entertaining" but your face says fearrrr haha. Love this video! You've broken it down really intelligently and compassionately. It doesn't make sense that we should start so much drama when we all essentially love the same thing!
Why are people getting upset about an HG prequel coming out? Because it's "not the kind of story we need right now?" ...So what? Not all books have to address this huge worldly topics, some books can just come out for entertainment and fun. I feel like that's what reading used to be, and now every book that comes out has to speak on big societal issues? That's so dumb, it's a fictional book about a fictional world, if she wants to write a prequel who cares if it's what the world "needs," the author was probably really exciting about working on or finishing a new book and then everyone shit all over it for no reason (Not saying that any of this is your opinion, it just seemed like you were saying that's what other people were getting upset about)
Looking forward to hearing you rank soapgate at some point (truly such a fun discussion at Booknetfest this part year). I thought the discourse on one author signing books by other authors without their consent and when she was specifically asked to stop she said she would try was a fascinating one earlier this year.
Fantasy Lover (first book of the Dark Hunters series) by Sherrilyn Kenyon, was published in 2002, and City of Bones by Cassandra Clare in 2007. Just saying.🤷♀️
Yeah but in the lawsuit if you read it there's stuff that came out in TMI first in 2007 and not until 2009 in dark hunters that they claim that Late stole. And it's littered with those examples so I can see why someone would get that impresson if they read the lawsuit.
the thing (in my opinion) about cishet authors writing gay men in YA is that a lot of the time they write them for cishet teenage girls who are the type to love cmbyn and want a gay best friend and not to have actual representation for gay men (and 9 times out of ten just ends up fetishizing gay men and gay coming of age story’s and perpetuating harmful stereotypes
I don't get cancel culture and the need to censure books or make deductios from the book back to the author. Banned book lists have violated freedom of opinion for quite some time and cancel culture appears to be doing the same but instead the limiting act is done by a digital mob. Don't like a book, great, leave a review about what you don't like. Don't recommend it. But why go after someone as a mob? Be it on UA-cam or twitter or wherever?
Quite a few of these I didn't know of, I'm curious does anyone else really love when there's booktube tea because that is how you find new channels? Handbook For Mortals was the reason I really stumbled across booktube being a thing, BLM I found some incredible booktubers etc. There isn't much collaboration between booktubers which isn't really an issue but as counterintuitive but if I feel like binging a subject I can watch youtubers and learn their style and how they approach an issue and see if it's a good fit for me. Am I the only one who does that? I feel like nobody ever brings it up especially how youtube algorithm loves to bring you new videos about a topic you just learned about.
Hey guys, two things that have come to my attention since posting this video:
1. I am not saying that I don't think straight authors should write gay characters. If an author does their research properly, I have no issue with them writing a gay character into their story. There are countless examples of when this has been done perfectly. I'm sorry if this did not come across but what I am specifically trying to say is that I am not a fan of straight authors not doing their research and writing a novel that fetishises a gay coming of age story. Especially one that deals with underage characters. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. In the video I refer to "White cis women writing gay coming of age stories", I only do this because this seems to be the biggest demographic of authors that are writing these stories. This also seems to be the demographic that fetishise the whole growing up gay experience.
2. In regards to Veronica Roth, there was definitely some misinformation floating around and a lot of people have pointed me towards this video (ua-cam.com/video/AOwsQ3mJKPI/v-deo.html) which sums it all up perfectly. I'm sorry that I had not seen this before I made this video, I now understand that the claims made against Veronica Roth aren't true. So I apologise for not knowing this at the time of making this video.
This video is completely just my opinions on these topics and I respect that everyone has their own opinions. I hope you understand.
Idk I have really just never read a book which fetishises gay characters...
Joe Hill There are several of them, especially in Japan. The genres involved are called BL/shounen-ai and yaoi. A lot of girls are really into those, believe me.
I was just about to comment about Carve The Mark, then I saw your comment. Thanks for the good video!
I think it is how you said what you said that has people riled up. Lets turn around what you said. Would it be appropriate for a cis white female to say "gay men shouldn't write about xy or z?" If it wouldn't sound right in your head spun back at you, why is it okay to say it to the other side? It makes you sound very rude and discriminatory. I'm not trying to say that you are. It's clear you weren't.
I get what you mean tbh since YA as a genre really likes recycling tropes, which doesn’t have to be bad necessarily but forming “tropes” for stories about like gay coming of age will always inevitably lead to some issues
The whole "audiobooks don't count as reading" drama made me so mad. As someone who's going blind at a young age that one hurt to see happen and I'm glad so many people fought back and defended audiobooks. Plus, now the person who started all that looks like an absolute fool cause audiobooks are insanely popular now ^_^
I drive for work and spend eight or more hours in a car every day, so I get most of my 'reading' via audible these days.
I agree. Isn’t the point that people can enjoy stories or learn from books?
I have trouble reading print both because of failing eyesight and secondly because of arthritis in my fingers which means I often have trouble holding books. Audiobooks are very important to me.
I've never been a fan of audiobooks because I don't like narrators to sound like something I wouldn't think the characters would sound like. But for people who have struggle with physical reading or just prefer it this is a great option
It's important for people with vision problems but it's also given busy people an opportunity to read more. My uncle is a bus driver and has little time to read from a book, but he listens to audiobooks all day while he drives
The problem isn't Book Twitter, it's just Twitter. Every community turns into a pit of toxicity once it's on Twitter.
if there's a community/fandom the main objective is to try to keep it off Twitter otherwise it goes downhill.
Twitter is just tumblr 2.0 lol
@@bee9892 The problem is not twitter but the people you surround yourself with there.
I've taken part in over a dozen fandoms in my life, well before social media... Fandoms are always messy, it's crazy! The problem is that 100+ people inevitably won't get along long-term if they only have 1 or 2 things in common, which is that they love a certain piece of media. But there's always niches within big fandoms where like personalities naturally stick together.
@@reckonerwheel5336 I am glad i grew up in a time when there was no Internet. It's the only thing I am grateful for.
Every time you say something like "everybody knows", I don't know about anything. I feel really drama free haha.
Same here haha
Hahahaha same 😭
Bro same, living my life drama free since 2003...
Same 🤣
I really even went to twitter tryin to find the tea. Like who is the OG you tuber that said they disliked reading vlogs? I’m pretty knew to book tube
This is a dumb idea but,
The Stupid tea should have been called "Stupiditea"
Ahh that's a good pun
This person made a thing.
"Dumb idea" sir you misspelled great idea
I second this!
Me being on booktube since 4 months and not knowing any names:👁️ 👄 👁️
Lollll you poor thing
Mooooood
Saaaaaame lmao!
Same only it’s been like 6 months for me! I watched this because I need to know what’s going on lmao
@@Emma-rj4nd me almost 3 -4 years now...
honestly book twitter has the STUPIDEST drama and I think it’s because people hold each other to such high standards and if you don’t act like the perfect human being you’re suddenly cancelled?? don’t have time for it tbh 😂
Louder for the people in the back
HARD AGREE. You can never just be yourself without someone trying to start some sh**
OMG YES CERYS HAAAAA TWITTER BEEF IS INSAAAANNEEEEE
HARD AGREE. Honestly, I like watching it unfold sometimes but also a lot of it can be so harmful for no reason. Especially when it’s attacking young people for something they said. It’s so ridiculous.
Library of Cerys I’ve been on twitter for a week and I’m already traumatized and over it. 😳
Okay but do people remember when Maggie stiefvater (the raven boys author) and Halsey started a fight, that was by far the most entertaining drama to come out of the YA book community
The 'Hands wrapped around the stick shift' drama omg I completely forgot about this. What a wild time.
This happened way before I was even on Twitter or knew booktube existed, so I had to google because that sounds WILD, and wow. That drama was... a lot. Still categorized it as stupid drama in my head, though 😂 probably a lot more entertaining to have seen it in person than to read the tweets five years later.
how could one forget?
my lord that was a rollercoaster
Why is everyone going off on Suzanne Collins for writing a Prequel about President Snow? It’s her book! People need to chill. The Hunger Games is my favorite series off all time but I’m not mad! Don’t hate on a book before it comes out.
Thank you!! I really don't understand why people feel the need of hating something they haven't even read 😂
Because no one wants to read a book justifying why a white man decided he wanted to be a psychopathic killer?? It’s a story we’re all tired of. Maybe don’t degrade poc’s reactions?
@@blacklez It's not that deep. (Its a book of fiction) And the book wont be justifying anything, it would just explain how he became who he is.
Jasmine Ward poc’s reactions are valid, but i havent seen more than a few poc upset about it, mostly just white people because popular booktube is predominantly white (a whole issue on its own). i think itll be interesting because i like villain origin stories but the reactions of poc are completely valid. im not sure the original commenter was talking about poc’s reactions tho.
Open Doors it might not people on UA-cam, but on booktwt, all POC hate it. When it first came out, we were all upset and everyone gaslighted us.
In my case I don't mind straight authors writing the gay YA if they are well informed, for example, a friend of mine wrote a novel where one of the main protagonists was a gay closeted teen and she kept asking me and my other friend (we r both LGBT) about our experiences, how it was and she asked for it with vivid details so she could make sure the character was well written. Honestly the character ended up being amazing and a great rep :)
Hey, thank you so much for sharing your opinion respectfully. A lot of people can't seem to do this. I completely agree with what you are saying. I really should have addressed this in my video but I honestly didn't think it would get as many comments and views as it has. I agree that as long as an author has researched the portrayal of their character then I have no qualms with that. So I'm really glad to hear your author friend has done this. My main issue is with the authors that don't take the time to do this and instead romanticise the experience of growing up lgbtqi+ and fetishise gay romances. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Again, I completely agree with what you are saying. Thanks again for sharing :)
Just Angus yes I agree with both of you! I do think there’s a difference if it’s a straight author writing an LGBT+ romance novel versus a novel that is supposed to document experiences because sometimes there are just some things that can’t be researched well enough to create an authentic novel and it would fall short for fans expectations. That isn’t to say it’s inherently bad, but they’re two different things to write. 😅sorry I don’t know if I’m explaining my point properly
Do you mind me asking what the book and author was? If it’s good and respectful representation I’d really like to read and support them
Haley Andrews one that i can think of is the love simon book, i haven’t read it but i’ve heard a lot of the lgbtq+ community saying it wasn’t good representation, i know there are videos of people talking about why it’s not good representation in detail if you want to know more.
I’m gay, and to me, cis women writing gay characters isn’t a big issue as long as it isn’t a fetishizing, poorly researched presentation of really important stuff. If we hold this idea of “you c any write outside of your own individual experience” then there would be no ability to have any diversity in books. I’m white, so should I not have any POC characters? No. I should do research, get sensitivity readers and make sure I’m presenting experiences accurately. Love Simon was a pretty strong depiction tbh, but everyone’s experience is different
Yeah I understand that. I think the issue comes when it's happening as often as it is, and it almost takes the platform away from people who can tell the story from an honest and personal place if you get what I'm saying.
@@jessiedoherty128 there isn't a limit on how many people can be writers so I'm not sure how a platform is being taken away.
Read his pinned comment, but Love Simon/Simon v. The Homosapien Agenda is kind of an exception. In more recent years gay male books written by lgbt authors are more popular, but I would look into it more - the issue is more like, there’s dozens if not hundreds of white cishet women writing stories romanticizing gay male experiences without trying to research/understand it. It’s like 13 reasons why romanticizing self-harm.
C C because white cishet authors have more of a platform than most lgbt authors, so their books get more attention/more of a platform.
What would count as fetishization? I read Love Simon/Simon v. The Homosapien Agenda and I didn't feel there wasn't anything fetishizing about it. I wish I would have a point of reference to go from. What about m-m romance written by women in general or does it come to the actual book? I've read 2 m-m romance books written by women/gender fluid authors and I've had someone say to me that, as a straight woman, I should not be reading m-m romance at all, written by straight or queer authors, because I'm a woman and I'm fetishizing gay men. I can see how it could seem this way but at the same time, I'm sure that that's not my intention, I just like to explore as a reader and as a human being. I'm a little lost at what exactly are the 'rules' regarding straight people reading queer fiction.
as a lesbian, I'll take any representation I can get in books, especially because the ratio of mlm books to wlw books is so disportionate and off. I have no problem with straight women, or even straight men, writing wlw books as long as they arent fetishization and research is done well on the topic. to be honest, i just want good wlw representation
Same
Could you share your opinion on acotar then regards that subject? I've seen the video of readwithcindy where she reviews it and talks about the coming out of a character from the series and I tend to agree with her, that the representation was a bit forced and poorly executed in terms of writing. But I'm straight, so I cant really judge it, so I'm surious to know what would you think 😊
Do you have any recs for wlw books?? I've been struggling with realizing I'm bi for a long time (roman catholic family and etc) and I felt so relieved having read The 7 Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. Everything clicked for me, but having been raised the way I was, I don't know where to proceed from here. I'd love to read more and see more representation. Thank you so for your time and take care during this scary time
@@mahtanel7049 i think morrigan's coming out was very poor in both terms of writing and terms of good representation. if the fandom has to argue over whether morrigan is bisexual or lesbian, then thats a problem in itself. i don't like sarah j mass' books or her as a person very much, so i may be bias, but either way i do agree it is poor representation and it seems very forced for representation points.
@Anna Ryan Thank you so much, Anna!
BookTube tea is so weak, I upgraded myself to the Beauty Community--they will light a dumpster on fire just because the day ends in "day"
I don’t wear makeup but I watch it all
The issue with Booktuber books like Sasha’s and Christine’s is that is a typical writer who isn’t IG or UA-cam famous would never have gotten those two books published as is. I personally read them both and they definitely need work, but a typical writer would have needed to put those books into a few more rounds of drafts to get it to sell. It’s not to say that they didn’t work hard on their works, but they definitely had a major advantage. Especially when people don’t give proper critique to their work, it’s how creatives grow.
I love how Colleen Hoover is a whole topic
Look there's just so much to unpack with that woman hahahah
I haven’t read any of her books. So I wouldn’t know lol.
I love Colleen Hoover books but they aren’t YA I wouldn’t want young teenagers reading those stories. She does deal with dark themes but I think it shows warning of those themes and brings those important issues to light. My fear is that people will read her work and think those issues are alright to be in irl because it’s romanticized.
Not trying to argue your point but i think its also important to think about how white het authors can get criticized for writing gay characters but also for not writing enough representation. Its kind of a catch 22. I’m bi and i take it case by case. If i feel like the experience is well captured i really dont mind who the author is and how they identify, I’m just happy for the representation
I feel like there's no one size fits all whatsoever. Every issue should be dealt on a case by case basis because there's always so much to consider.
@@justwannafreefx9419 exactly.
I think he’s specifically talking about the cis straight authors that fetishize these underage gay coming of age stories, and aren’t doing their research or handling these stories like they should.
@@itbelikethat4940 Okey i am straight by have some gay friends. From them, I know there is no one or 50 kinds of coming out stories, because each person have their own. So what kind of research they can do? Another point - Stright author, you don't need to be a detective to write a murder mystery so you don't need to be gay to write about coming out. Remember that thanks to this authors, gay MAIN CHARACTER started to show in MAIN steam books, and after books there will be movies and tv show. With lead to acceptance
You are giving me vibes of leo DiCaprio in Romeo + Juliet 1996 in this video and I’m into it
Lol that's the best compliment ever thank you hahahah
We watched that movie in English class in like, 2010. And it’s so awful. Like, I really like Leo so I’m not complaining. But it was laughably bad.
The bofm ya drama is one of the stupidest dramas ive ever seen bc readwithcindy is the one that started it with a tweet in which she was literally just sarcastic and poking fun at herself cause she did a sponsorship with them. And people were canceling her for it. So dumb
Literally so dumb
People are so quick to cancel booktubers over the littlest things, especially POC booktubers 🤢
I always feel a little weird getting upset with authors who have problematic elements in novels because having something in a narrative doesn't mean that's the opinion if the author? I don't know. It's a very blurry line.
yeah i’m glad someone else agrees. i think it’s stupid to get mad at people for including problematic content in their novels. i think my main issue is when it’s marketed as ya with no warning or mentions of said problematic content. but other then think i think people should write about what they want.
I mean you should be able to tell how the element is treated by the narrative tho. Like I've seen people get angry that other people are angered by racism in a book since they say it's just part of the plot, but what people are actually angry about it the handling of the racism, not simply it's inclusion.
milo but most people aren’t angry at the handling. They’re just angry at what they want to be angry about because their fweewings are hurt. You’d think heavy readers would be smart but most seem quite stupid.
this video was made back in the day where there was only one transphobic jk rowling tweet
I'm so lost; what did she say??
right? watching this august 15, 2020 sure hits different.. no one could even think about it as "a transphobic tweet" anymore so much as jkr proudly airing her violently transphobic views whenever she gets the chance and literally writing a book about it in the most pathetically transparent attempt to scaremonger
@@sarahmcdonough7713 I've clearly missed something. What has JK actually said??
@@jhart1127 what do you mean "actually"? shes said a bunch of harmful transphobic bullshit. if you want direct quotes you can google.
She actually said that biological sex was real.
angus: everyone knows about this / i won't say who but you know who I'm talking about
me, detached from booktube + book twitter drama: *googling frantically*
also, i'm pretty sure women can't be multifaceted people with more than one major defining character trait except for when they're not like other girls and hate makeup because they are naturally beautiful, smart (pretentious) and funny (but not as smart or funny as men) (i.e. a manic pixie dream girl written by a middle aged white dude) so I think I get where fake reader girls dude was coming from lmao
This video just confirms to me that I'm not aware of many things in the book community, i just stay in my own lane.
the only "tea" I really remember putting my two cents in where the audiobook drama ( because not everyone can physically read a book.) and the Fake Reader girls because it led to a wider discussion on how your make videos shouldn't affect how you are in the community. ( NOt everyone can afford fancy filing equipment/camera's/ books/ subscription boxes etc)
This was sooooooo entertaining. I didn’t know 90% of this. Even though the entire topic was “drama” you were so refreshing and I am definitely now subscribed. ♥️🌿📚
Hey thanks so much! I'm so glad you enjoyed :)
this is "sarah dessen goes Ape Shitt on a teenager who didnt think her books should be part of a college curriculum" erasure
WHAT
The audiobook one really annoys me. It is still the book. There are a lot of people who cannot access books any other way, or it's the easiest way for them. My dad had a stroke and never recovered from the short term memory issues that brought about. He loves reading, but now when he sits down with a book, he barely remembers what happened on the page he just finished. Meanwhile, listening to audiobooks is easier for him, and he remembers better. I was heartbroken when I found out he couldn't read his books anymore. He's the one that got me into reading. So when we sat down and came up with the audiobook solution, I was so happy to see him reading again!
I didn’t know Derek Hough had a booktube channel
Lol I wish hahaha
When you click on the video quickly in case it causes stupid tea and gets deleted 😂
Praying I don't cause the next Booktube Drama Apocalypse with this
I got a hot take on women Writing Gay YA. I disagree. Anyone should be able to write on any topic or issue they so chose. Assuming they do their research. This case research it and have gay men read to ensure it is accurate. Straight Outta Compton is written by Andrea Berloff and Jonathan Herman. Both who are white. If they are not researching it and or are just doing it out of some fetish as you said then no.
Hey, thanks for bringing this up with me. I realise now I should've included this in my video. I am fine with these authors writing these stories as long as they do their research and don't fetishise the content. A lot of the YA market has become saturated with these romanticised fetishised gay coming of age stories that aren't accurate. My qualm is definitely with these stories, not the properly repped and researched ones.
Just Angus i was about to comment the same thing as the original commenter, but they took the words right out of my mouth! i think the best example of a gay book written by a woman is Simon Vs. she clearly did tons of research and heard personal accounts because it was like surprisingly accurate to my experience as a gay teen living in a conservative and homophobic town in America. i havent read much else in gay fiction besides that which didnt come from own-voices authors, but it was the best i have read.
I'm planning on writing a story about a gay/pan relationship with two men but I was nervous considering I'm a white cis woman and I didn't want people to think I'm fetishizing it.
I'm going to look into a LOT of things beforehand, and know a few personally since I share some with him (depression, anxiety, etc.). Having a character hate himself for his sexuality and trauma seems almost wrong from someone who hasn't been through exactly the same thing, though I hope to write it in a way thats true, and not to simply progress a relationship for the audience (it's NA supernatural, not a coming of age/contemporary).
I really love the LGBTQ+ community despite being straight myself, so I hope I don't disrespect anyone and have hesitated writing it into my second story because of that.
Yeah agreed cause people should be able to write whatever story but if you know for a fact that you don't know anything about the topic then you shouldn't write it
Dominique Harris Agree... I think it‘s super complicated to make a broad generalization because there are plenty of nuances to why someone might be writing a story about something but generally I think if you think „Should I be writing this..“ then maybe it‘s not your place to... Of course as a white person you should put characters of colour into your stories and as a straight person you should put LGBT characters in your story etc etc but you should not write the stories these people have to tell, e.g. what it‘s like to grow up as a gay person / trans person.. there are actual authors from these groups who want to tell their very own experiences and are overshadowed by authors who don‘t even belong in these groups
with how ""woke"" the booktube community presents itself i'm surprised the "audiobook aren't reading" drama made it outside of peoples heads.
The thing about zenith is the book ain't that good, and the stans were so defensive against booktubers who criticize the book
Right! It was just so bad and obvious she was trying to imitate Maas bad writing style
@@jshortforjay7270 the world-building is nonsensical
The thing with the Cassandra Clare incest drama is like yea it’s nasty putting Ron and Ginny in a relationship but there are so many people who make nasty ships like that. PEOPLE LITERALLY SHIP ANNA AND ELSA
I mean both can be nasty tho... just bc it's somewhat popular doesn't make it not nasty
milo I think his point tho is it’s not irl, like a lot of CC’s books depict violence or abuse that wouldn’t be fun to experience in real life, but it’s obv not really happening in books or frozen fanfic
@@rileytrep6514 yeah I get that but usually abuse and incest are depicted as bad and not "bad but actually bad in a hot way." It's nasty not when it's portrayed but when the author is like "this is good or hot actually"
@@prikas4313 I get that, I definitely don't support abuse or murder irl but it's up to the reader to realize it's fiction. Like one of my favorite shows is Dexter and murder is portrayed as a good thing, but me and most everyone who watches just watches it for the intrigue and would be against a real murder hapening. If someone is reading CC and thinks abuse is hot and something they want to do I think they had some issues before reading the book
milo yea I totally agree I was trying to say that like she shouldn’t be attacked for a fictional fan fic like that when there are so many other people who ship siblings or weird stuff like that
I personally feel as though the Cassandra Claire incest is important tea because that just shows that when she wrote the first book in the shadow hunter series and included ‘incest’. It can be seen as just a little roadblock in the book before they figured out they weren’t siblings, but it just shows that she saw it as an enticing thing that makes the romance even ‘hotter’. It disgusts me and I can never look at that book the same again without thinking of that.
but she wasn’t hurting anyone; it was just so she could make a later plot twist. Also in my opinion this can be compared to youtubers having to make apology videos cause old racist tweets came up from over ten years ago. yes it’s bad that the fanfic happened but it’s so old
I can see where you’d think that but I personally don’t think that was the intention of it at all, firstly it was just so blatantly obvious that that wouldn’t be the case, like no author would write the main couple to be siblings and I personally didn’t buy it for a minute, secondly it served a narrative point to show just how they couldn’t live without each other, because of their connection by the angel their souls are intertwined; abit like how parabatai are but stronger, and it was killing them that they couldn’t be together, that was why valentine told them the lie in the first place because if they worked together against him they were an unstoppable force, and Jocelyn wasn’t around to put the record straight. I will say that I personally believe that the plot-point could have been left out/changed and we could have been show how they’re bonded together a different way, but that’s not how it happened and I’m not going to condemn the whole series because of one plot thread I didn’t like
Yeah the important tea thing is kinda subjective, some issues are more important to people in different ways. I personally felt kinda meh about TMI but I can see how some people would either really like it or really dislike it
Like yeah I straight up refuse to read her books after the twist with the first one cause I'm all that's nasty
Fate Zaragosa yeah and that’s your right as a reader to choose what to read 👍
Oh yes, I feel filled in now. I'm really behind the loop.
I remember a bunch of years back there was drama about booktubers getting books bought for them by fans off of their amazon wishlists. They were blamed for taking advantage of their platform and encouraging fans to buy stuff for them. It was a HUUUUGE thing. Anyhoo, thanks for catching me up on all the newer tea - what a journey.
The v roth scandal was fake lol, the person who made the claims didnt even read the book. If yall wanna know, look it up.
Your “drama” reminds me of a movie commentary UA-camr I used to watch who did a commentary on Avengers: Endgame. In the movie there’s this big girl power scene in the middle of the battle. The UA-camr commented on how he didn’t like the scene because if the MCU really was that invested in girl power they should have done a female lead movie way earlier. He felt like the scene was just a cheap way to appear woke. However twitter/tumblr (it happened on both platforms) took the whole thing out of context and just talked about him saying he didn’t like the scene and made it look like he was sexist.
Honestly, sometimes I think people are so used to being angry at the time that sometimes they change up what someone said in their minds just so they can continue to stay mad.
There definitely seems to be a culture of people taking things like this out of context to scrutinise them.
Huh on my dash most people agreed that MCU was pandering with that scene
I meant people taking his comment out of context. Like people have with mine
Haylee Haux yeah most definetly. But the took some of his words out of context and made it look like he was sexist. That’s the point I tried to make with this comment.
You're talking about Dylan is in trouble right? He got so much hate off of that video. I wish people watched his video and realised what he said made actual sense. He's a film commentary channel for a reason and he actually articulates himself so well.
Readywithcindy, KrimsonRogue, and Caleb Joseph are the only booktubers I even know of anymore.
Some others I used to watch either mostly left youtube completely by now or shifted their content to commentary/reaction channels
Those are also some of the only BookTubers I watch! I’ve tried watching other creators but a lot of their content kind of gets a bit repetitive to me.
I will say the three authors I hear brought up the most when talking about how cis straight women writing gay teen romance and coming of age are Becky Albertalli, Casey McQuiston, and Alice Oseman. None of which are both straight and cis! Becky is bi, Casey is nonbinary, and Alice Oseman is aroace. I still think its important tea, but I also think we need to be careful that we don’t forcibly out authors who aren’t ready for it by demanding certain stories only be written by certain people.
The Veronica Roth stuff was started in my opinion for no reason. Someone started something about how she made this one race with harsh language and all those characters were POC but if you read the book, skin color had nothing to do with the races because skin color wasn’t a genetically hereditary trait. (I can’t explain that logic but that’s how it worked 😂)
I just watched a whole video on it someone suggested and now it makes sense! So silly. Glad I know the full story now though!
I just find it funny that there's enough drama to make a tier list out of
I had no idea Booktube Drama was a thing until today when someone brought up Steven Donahue accusing younger booktubers of not actually reading. Huh. Never knew.
I hate drama about what authors put in their books. If they write about abusive relationships why not!? It’s toxic and hopefully readers can learn from reading about the absurdity? If it’s distasteful we’ll good we got problems if it’s not! Classic literature has racism, abuse, generalized putting women down. We don’t cancel them because it’s outdated and toxic. In fact we teach it in school and hold lengthy discussions and analysis etc etc. it’s not cool. Don’t like it don’t read it! Don’t call out the author for being a certain bad roll model or whatever. Like calling an actor a racist abusive because they play a roll of a character. 🤔
"Book twitter is one of the most toxic communities on there"
Kpop twitter : hold my beer
Honestly, to me, Fanfiction in general, as long as it’s not about real people, isn’t hurting anyone and needs to be left alone. Like why don’t people hate on George RR Martin for his ASTOUNDING amounts of incest in GoT as much as Cassandra Clare, when she wrote one RonxGinny fanfic? When none of these people are real? My god, let it go people. If she was actually participating in incest, that’s different. But a fanfiction about fictional people? Get a life.
I was never in booktube drama as I only just joined. I love watching this to get the Tea
dunno why you dont have at least 500,000 subs yet looool. People are sleeping on the quality of your videos man.
Thoroughly enjoyed all the tea i have no idea happened.
ALSO unrelated. WHAT MIC DO YOU USE
DIVYA you're too sweet
divyaaaaaaaaaa
@@beequeen2556 yaaaaaaaaa
Also- about carve the mark- you should watch Francina Simone’s video about the whole thing. A person of colors opinion on the whole thing- not gonna try and summarize or talk over her
I just watched, it makes so much more sense now! So silly really how it all got twisted. Thanks so much for bringing it to my attention!
Your mention about straight authors writing gay coming of age stories was so on point!! It really seems to be trending now, and I wish more people talked about it! Great video, it was kinda nostalgic remembering all the random drama booktube gets into 😀
Thanks so much!!
this is exactly how i felt about autoboyography ....
I think its more than okay for anyone to write a gay coming of age story AS LONG as they do their research. Like, interview gay boys who struggled, read autobiographies by them. Talk to people online about it and really research the topic. As long as they dont use stereotypes, be insensitive because they havent done research.
@@bellac6311 " interview gay boys who struggled" - it will still be a representation of one person, you can't really research this topic. Because every person have their own story. It like writing about growing up experience - you can;t write one that could be accurate for everyone.
I’m really happy that people are defending audio books. My nana who loves reading and spends all her time reading is going blind, and we’re hoping to find a suitable audio book app to help her continue doing her favourite thing in the world. Saying audio books aren’t reading is insulting to people with any sort of disability, and honestly just in general to people who PREFER consuming that content in that specific way.
Booktwitter is damn insane. I loved this video!
Francina simone made a great video about book dramas including carve the mark and disagreed that it was racist x
Someone else also recommended I watch it yesterday so I gave it a watch! Very insightful and definitely cleared a lot up for me! It's wild how everything got so twisted
Your rant about audiobooks being a legitimate form of reading... I feel seen!
I really loved this vid! I’ve watched booktube for years and always heard bookubers talk about booktube drama but never knew any instances and always wondered what kind of drama a community of people reading books could have. Ha! This was entertaining to finally find the tea!
Many Dark-Hunters books came out in the early 2000s, before CoB (2007), and the author actually started writing at the end of the 90s... if you looked into CC's past, you know she's a serial plagiarizer, bully and scammer. Many things in her published books, ahem, "take inspiration" from other books (Nightrunner, The Mortal Engines and The Infernal Devices by Philip Reeves, The Secret Circle, etc. etc.). Why even make a video like this if you're going to let your bias get in the way?
"We're so dramatic" 😂 sums up this whole video
the audiobook slander is genuinely so ableist
i have to say, i dont understand the hate for the hg prequel being in snow’s perspective. i personally love villain origin stories and a lot of people are immediately discrediting it before it has even released. i do understand a lot of people’s perspectives on it, but she is great at writing cautionary tales (aka the entire hg trilogy) and TBoSaS is almost guaranteed to be one too. idk, just my viewpoint!
Yeah! I loved Marissa Meyer's, Heartless, and I can't wait to see what this prequel is like. Sure, I would've preferred to read about Haymitch's time in the games but I'm curious about this one.
Because people are stupid, especially HG fans. Most are little girls.
i just discovered your channel bc of this video and omg i love your personality and style so much!! the way you joked about the drama while still adressing those you found important and still sounding so sweet was amazing youre so cute pls
who did the reading vlog
For the booktubers publishing books:
Most people publish their book and then build their audience. Booktubers do it in reverse. There is NOTHING wrong with it!!!
A good book is a good book regardless.
Unfortunately the 2 booktubers who have published their books, neither book is particularly good apparently.. 🤭
@@racheltfisher do you know which books they are, which authors perhaps?
4:58 - actually, Sherrilyn Kenyon started the dark hunter series in 2002 with her prequel book fantasy lover. Cassandra Claire wrote city of bones in 2007. However, while Sherrilyn came first, I thought it was really fucking ignorant for her to try and sue Cassandra's writing for similarities when there are dozens upon dozens of other writers that have the same "brotherhood vampire" elements going on i.e. J.R. Ward, Mari Mancusi, Christine Feehan, etc.
Oh, that's really interesting, Thanks for filling me in on this, I actually had no idea she wrote the prequel that long ago!
You're so right.
That whole situation was a hectic kettle of fish. At the same time that was happening Sherrilyn Kenyon believes her husband and two assistants were trying to sabotage her career and try to kill her. He allegedly took out life insurance policies on her, stole money from her and their kids accounts. Once she got tested, she had high levels of minerals/chemicals in her body. I know she's dropped the lawsuit against them, but I'm not sure if he's ever been arrested.
Cataluna6 They are still in court battling this out. He has had her declared incompetent and court has control over her whole life including her money where she goes (like book tours or cons). She can’t even continue writing her books. He is also trying to get copywrite rights over her work. She has been writing about the dark hunters many many years before she ever met her ex. He is psycho in my opinion. Also he was the one who pushed for the lawsuit. Sherrilyn didn’t want to do it.
@@jennifershuster1345 See I've seen that and I've also read an interview and piece.... By Variety? I think where the person talked to her and others close to her and she herslef dosnt seem to be doing okay. I remember her big reason to think her husband was poisoning her was because all the hair brushes were gone or the hair on them was cleaned and he must have taken them so se couldn't get them tested.... Even though she still has the hair on her head. And it don't sound like she got tested and it came back positive or anything. And people who know are seem spilt on her accusations towards get husband including her children. It's all wild really.
I actually really like audiobooks because of the way they voice the characters. Also because I struggle with reading :') so listening is nice
out of all of them, this is literally BY FAR the best tier ranking video i have watched :) so funny, so interesting! all of your points are so spot on
i think lots of none gay authors write gay ya is becuz they are pressured by half the readers to be more woke and inclusive and have represantation for everyone, even if its not something the authors knows and research online is limited and mostly filled with tropes and fetish like stuff, you for sure can do propor research, it depends on how much info there is, since not all authors are english speaking and different countries have different info about topics)... while the problem you mentioned needs to be adressed, the other issue about pressuring authors also need to be adressed, cuz some of these authors do exactly what the readers want, but than the same readers complain about it.
i think if readers wont pressure authors into a specific writing box, the 1st problem you mentioned will be solved faster (this does not included the few authors who write gay ya just becuz its the trend or things like that).
THE “Writing Gay YA” ONE MADE ME CACKLE SO HARD BECAUSE ITS SO TRUE
Omg, this was actually brilliant! Also, when I saw BOTM drama at the bottom my brain auto corrected it to that one subscription box and I fully thought it was about to be about that one SJM book box with the whole soap-gate deal 😂
Omgggg I considered including soap-gate in this video but decided not to. If I do another one I'll definitely do it, hahaha.
It is hard for writers to find a balance between wanting to have equal representation in your stories and knowing that the stories of marginalized characters aren't always yours to tell.
Exactly what I was thinking while hearing his point of view
The audio book one really pisses me off because my little brother has profound dyslexia (the rarest and most extreme case of dyslexia you can have) and audio books and people reading to him are really the best ways for him to consume a story. He can read but it’s much harder for him then the average person and if someone told him that listening to audio books didn’t count as reading I would throw hands I stg.
I didn't lose interest at all throughout the video! I really liked how, even though you were discussing drama, you delivered it in a way that was measured and intelligent.
You missed the Stupidest Tea of all.... soapgate 😂
I knowwwww saving it for the sequel ;)
*Cindy has entered the chat*
I just had to look this up because I had no idea what it was, and now I feel like I'm going to Hell omg
@@emmajjy98 what was it
@@ArchanaYadav-tq1os weird to explain but they basically put soapd*cks in a bookbox. To my understanding
how have i watched booktube for like 5 years and not known any of the ones below important tea... this community seems STRESSFUL
Sounds to me like booktube spends more time judging each others politics and personal preferences rather than talking about books. If I want to write a book about a gay kid I'll do it. If you dont like it dont read it or write your own.
If you do a sequel, you should cover Book Piracy because that one comes around every 4 months it feels like
I definitely will!!
I love how respectful you were about every single topic. And so funny! This was such a great video and gave me flashbacks to all this drama haha
this just makes me wanna look and read about all the tea that i didn’t know about. you’re quickly becoming one of my fav booktubers Angus! ❤️
It's actually so entertaining to read about. Thank you so much!! I'm so glad you enjoy my videos
What was the tweet that Rowling tweeted that was transphobic?
OK a few months ago I watched an entire analysis of Colleen Hoover's books and why they're problematic and then a few weeks later in a group chat somebody was saying that they are on a Colleen Hoover binge and they love everything they've read by her so I asked if it was as problematic and gross as I had heard. They all freaked out on me! At least 4 people immediately jumped to defending Hoover and told me it was so cute, sweet, adorable, romantic, etc and that who ever told me that stuff was really out of touch. !!???
We know what about jk rowling exactly?
We are so boring compared to the UA-cam makeup community lol
If we wanna talk about an author plagiarizing another’s book, can we talk about Alison Goodman and The Dark Day Club. It is a literal rip off of The Mortal Instruments:
•Ordinary girl finds out her mother was a part of a demon hunting society
•Demon hunting society
•Mom is MIA and left big problem for her daughter to fix
•Broken yet hot love interest with a tragic past involving his loved one being a villain
•Brother and sister who are best friends with love interest (both have black hair and blue eyes)
•Brother is gay and was in love with love interest
•Older brother with possible connections to evil villain
•Family friend who is in love with main lead and doesn’t like the love interest (gets together with her at some point)
•Need to collect three magical items to save the world
•Girl has special gifts that make her special enough to find the three items
•Learns how to fight demons with superhuman battle skills she was born with
Tell me that doesn’t sound like The Mortal Instruments
I agree about the audiobook thing. Its a good idea for those with sight problems. Its no different to subtitles for those who can't hear well. Twitter needs cancelling full stop . Also the jk thing. I feel I'm the only one who can see both sides to it. I understand her having an opinion. We all have one. But I also think it should have been something she should have kept to herself. After all nobody is ever going to agree to everything in the world. Its never happened and it never will.
Thank you for your thoughts on audiobooks. I've always had audiobooks in my rotation but now even more so because of my eye macular degeneration. Consuming books via audiobooks have allowed me to continue my reading habits. So thank you for mentioning this❤️
Your mention of the Small Booktuber drama brought me BACK. What a trip down memory lane. Also I totally agree with Handbook for Mortals being entertaining tea. I read so much about that when it was going down. -Becks
Omg I'm glad SOMEONE remembers, I feel like that one really slipped under people's radar!
The dark hunter series came out in the 80’s not after the shadow hunter series
The BotM drama is so funny to me because this post IS SPONSORED BY RAID: SHADOW LEGENDS
"It was entertaining" but your face says fearrrr haha. Love this video! You've broken it down really intelligently and compassionately. It doesn't make sense that we should start so much drama when we all essentially love the same thing!
Thank you so much! I'm so surprised this hasn't caused any drama lol. I nearly didn't post it.
@@JustAngus Just imagine if it did haha. I'm glad you did post it despite your doubts!
Why are people getting upset about an HG prequel coming out? Because it's "not the kind of story we need right now?" ...So what? Not all books have to address this huge worldly topics, some books can just come out for entertainment and fun. I feel like that's what reading used to be, and now every book that comes out has to speak on big societal issues? That's so dumb, it's a fictional book about a fictional world, if she wants to write a prequel who cares if it's what the world "needs," the author was probably really exciting about working on or finishing a new book and then everyone shit all over it for no reason (Not saying that any of this is your opinion, it just seemed like you were saying that's what other people were getting upset about)
How did I know you’re Australian before I even clicked on the video
The most entertaining tier ranking video I’ve seen
This was funny and I never hear when the drama's happen. So it was a great way to get to know some of the drama 😅
I just stumbled across this video but so glad I did! Loving your commentary!
I just found you today. Whyyyyy? But ey, better to be late than never.
Me too! And I didn't know about a lot of these dramas so great! 😁 People! 😁🙈
Saying drama made about you is stupid tea is honestly the biggest boost ever let us all be as carefree as Angus pls
AHAHA I love this
Looking forward to hearing you rank soapgate at some point (truly such a fun discussion at Booknetfest this part year). I thought the discourse on one author signing books by other authors without their consent and when she was specifically asked to stop she said she would try was a fascinating one earlier this year.
Fantasy Lover (first book of the Dark Hunters series) by Sherrilyn Kenyon, was published in 2002, and City of Bones by Cassandra Clare in 2007. Just saying.🤷♀️
Yeah but in the lawsuit if you read it there's stuff that came out in TMI first in 2007 and not until 2009 in dark hunters that they claim that Late stole. And it's littered with those examples so I can see why someone would get that impresson if they read the lawsuit.
the thing (in my opinion) about cishet authors writing gay men in YA is that a lot of the time they write them for cishet teenage girls who are the type to love cmbyn and want a gay best friend and not to have actual representation for gay men (and 9 times out of ten just ends up fetishizing gay men and gay coming of age story’s and perpetuating harmful stereotypes
I feel like the fact that one of the guys from American pie was linked to handbook for mortals wasn’t brought up enough lol
Just found your channel. I’m so hooked.
Omg I studied film tooooo!!
OMG LEO WATCHES ANGUS MY TWO FILMMAKER BUDDIES
I don't get cancel culture and the need to censure books or make deductios from the book back to the author. Banned book lists have violated freedom of opinion for quite some time and cancel culture appears to be doing the same but instead the limiting act is done by a digital mob. Don't like a book, great, leave a review about what you don't like. Don't recommend it. But why go after someone as a mob? Be it on UA-cam or twitter or wherever?
Quite a few of these I didn't know of, I'm curious does anyone else really love when there's booktube tea because that is how you find new channels? Handbook For Mortals was the reason I really stumbled across booktube being a thing, BLM I found some incredible booktubers etc. There isn't much collaboration between booktubers which isn't really an issue but as counterintuitive but if I feel like binging a subject I can watch youtubers and learn their style and how they approach an issue and see if it's a good fit for me. Am I the only one who does that? I feel like nobody ever brings it up especially how youtube algorithm loves to bring you new videos about a topic you just learned about.
I am so out of the loop of everything wow 😂 I loved this video Angus!