Hinduism from an Orthodox Christian Perspective | Public Lecture | Part 2 (Q&A)
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2022
- Father Innocent from Saint Gregory Palamas Monastery gave a lecture last year at Saint Photios Orthodox Theological Seminary that covered the topic of Hinduism from an Orthodox Christian perspective.
During his lecture, Father Innocent gives a history lesson of the origins of Hinduism, what Hindus believe, and why Hinduism conflicts with Orthodox Christianity.
Father Innocent states that through his research of Hinduism, he found that there is a commonality between the beliefs of Hinduism and many modern trends and thinking.
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I think the closing question really missed the mark. The end goal of Hinduism is not “non-existence” but “union with God”.
It is no longer I who lives but Christ lives in me.
not completely true. this is just goal of moksha.
It's not a union, it's a collapse, by definition. If everything is Brahman, then distinctions (information) are illusory. So really all that happens is that the distinctions are dissolved. Therefore the identity of whatever person or object we are talking about loses its delineations and therefore for all intents and purposes, stops existing. It's the fundamental problem of all monistic philosophies.
@@helpIthinkmylegsaregone when a glass of water is dropped in ocean does it stop existing
@@yungman7053is person reducible to object or nature or essence? For the Christian the answer is firmly no.
Last question really answers all questions the west might have:
When introduced to Christ, the Hindu exclaims wow what a great God you have, I’ll too will pray to Jesus along my own gods! And places Jesus idol along with his other idols. That’s the essence of Hinduism.
And that’s the beauty in itself. Father already explained in earlier question that the “Bhakti” yoga is for non intellectual people who are good devotees but doesn’t have good intellectual level. Again in his part 1 lecture he mentioned that Sanatana ideology is inclusive of Atheism, Agnosticism, monotheism, polytheism and many more isms. You can follow any path to reach one Divine God
I wish I would have found Orthodoxy at 24, when I got involved in Hinduism, instead of 56. But Glory to God He found me!
"I am Not Shankara" was fantastic. It's a very profound statement
Am so impressed with and humbled by Father Innocent’s presentation. He was thorough and respectful which I so appreciate. I learned so much too. Thank you for your hard work and intense study. Father Innocent is a wonderful role model for all of us on how to approach different religions.
A really good presentation and the speaker is humble enough to say he doesn't know when he's unsure of something.
I think the biggest confusion from the audience is relating to the non-existence of individuality. Moksha is supposed to be the non-existence of one's ego, and uniting with the source of existence itself. Also, people don't need to die to achieve Moksha. Such individuals do feel pleasure and pain but have surpassed suffering.
The plurality concept (many ways to the same destination) is not for Abrahimic believers to drop exclusivity but for humans as a whole to embrace inclusivity.
Moksha in simple words, is the liberation of the soul from the cycle of birth and death. So, every hindu is duty bound to strive and attain "Moksha" through "Karma", renunciation, "Bhakti" or Devotion.
Very lucid exposition of Hinduism. Thank you. I think the lecture shows the beauty of the spiritual impulse in Hinduism, and by extension, in all religions, if we just dig deeper to understand.
He is very gental and honest individual,
He made Great efforts to understand Hinduism, it is vast subject and complicated and has lot of contradictory things, only enlighten individual can explain it properly.
Great effort sir... Father Innocent!
Courageous enough to take up Hindu philosophical thought in the premise of orthodox Christian perspective!!!
Though you have a long journey yet to cover to understand the semblance of various methods/practices... you have succeeded in raising curiosity on Hindu philosophy.. which is still an enigma.
My Pranama to you Revered Father. Bless me, so that I can be a good human being 🙏
Father Innocent is very humble and open to different thoughts. Thank you for your efforts Father.
Moksha can be understood as coming to terms with the ever present existence, and that knowledge being achieved experientially not through a thought of it. Knowing that the self within is the self without, beyond birth and without an inevitable death.
Its like waking up from a sleepwalking life, opening your eyes, and realizing that now you can see the obstacles(death) and won't have to bump into them again and again.
I am in awe of father innocent, his depth of understanding in Hindi philosophy is so amazing. He actually understood the real essence. Such a young guy with so much depth.
I am a Christian from India. My ancestors accepted the gospel when St Thomas came to India.
I have been exposed to Hinduism from childhood, both the baser idolatory and the higher philosophies. And I must say Father Innocent was accurate and quite thorough with this presentation.
And his last comment about how it has been ingrained into the Hindu mind this idea of being inclusive, ( and I may also add ecumenical), that it is almost preposterous to them, that Christ is the Way and there is no other to the Father. To them it is a noble thing to have no definite beliefs, so one can be accepting of all.
But truth by its nature is exclusive. But the Indian subconscious has been ingrained so well, and now these ideas seem to appeal to many in the West. Yoga(which is a spiritual practice that takes one into altered states of consciousness), use of psychedelics, and plain old self absorption of our times, is making the fantasy that 'I am god and I just need to come to realize it', very attractive.
That said, God is at work in India and the gospel is being preached, and the Holy Spirit is bringing conviction and God's power by way of healing and deliverance from demons. So God who sent the Apostle Thomas so many centuries back is still drawing India to Himself.
Lastly, Father Innocent did such a good job and it was a pleasure to hear his sharp insights, and see his humility. Also the audience had some great questions which offered more insight during the Q&A.
I would like to point out that although scripturally in Hinduism we find the emphasis on the impersonal Brahman, in the daily life of Hindus, both householders and ascetics, there is a significant emphasis on the devotion to God as a person, be it in the form of Krishna, Shiva, Durga etc.
I recommend Swami Sarvapriyananda's talks on Bhakti Yoga, dying to self through devotion to the Lord.
But which one though? Is there any epistemic standard for knowing how to choose between gods or emanations?
here comes a bhai who is a Hindu from my country perhaps, who perhaps desire for God or love God but wants to resolve it through a pegan lense, aysa keu bhai? if you had said devotion to God or Iswar or Khuda i would have no qualms but you bring shiva who is really a form of dark deity and can no way be quantified as that which is eternal and perfectly good God at the very least is a creative intelligence who exceeds the space time continuum and who is perfectly good if you love that which is perfect good and open yourself up to it then it really matter less how you identify yourself but if your deity itself is a form of dark one and finite then ontological justification simply breaks down, now krishna devotee does talk about an all good God and worship the supreme divine but their idea of God is all in principle they tremble and start worshipping an animal ironically they do believe in God being all loving but then they give justifications for caste since they are from higher caste they wants to have it, if God is all loving then God has given the same dignity to everyone and everyone is an image bearers of God and there should be no place for social superiority racial superiority ethno nationalism but it is the failure of these theistic Hindus who does believe in an all good lord but has done nothing to tackle caste system so if you truly love God then at least don't defend these condescending ideas i just says some days ago how in BJP rule states which is run by far right ethno nationalists they are hacking lower caste people and destroying Muslim homes for no such reason whatsoever so love God love Iswar but not through a pegan means but simply from your heart and mind
Shiva is not a god. Only brahma vishnu mahesh existed. Shiva came later and with most thing pure polluted it
Brahman can at best be thought as the root of existence, consciousness and bliss. This concept is beyond form and qualities so it's impossible to think of building a relationship with Brahman. You can attach infinite exaggeratedly attractive human qualities to build a connection to Ishvar(formless God) or you can go a step further and attach infinite attractive forms to Bhagwan(God with form and attributes) to easily connect via human emotions.
Both these methods are layers you add for easier access to reality and can take them off when you've grown past them. However, these approaches are very much real. You require God's and your guide's blessings to navigate spirituality.
Finally, found the speech on Hinduism without hate and contempt. On attempt to only seek.
The speaker is very mature, something I really liked here. Brahman is impersonal because Brahman is the superset containing what we perceive as God and the entire Universe. Therefore we already are a part of Brahman(We aren't fond of any single organ or anything, are we?). But Bhakti, aka Devotion or expression of love towards God, is considered much superior to plain asceticism or philosophical discourse...
But the other guy asking the questions was very immature and disrespectful of Sanatana Dharma.
He should have mentioned Paramatma who resides within us and also Bhagavan who is the personal aspect like Lord Krishna.
This is one type of Hinduism, charvaka, Vedanata and many more have around 6-7 main schools of thought and within them another 20.
Yet they want to preach exclusivity :-)
Really impressed with the depth of dear Father’s knowledge.
It's cyclical because creation is an inevitable by product of the existence of mind.
Very nice presentation. Thank you father Inocente. You are a good man.
For the question asked @9:24 , most Hindus would agree that different paths lead to "God" (as a translation of Brahm/Brahman or Ishvara) but if the followers of a particular path believe that their's is the exclusive path then this particular notion is incorrect. Still, if they keep pursuing their path with honesty (meaning leading a life according to their dharma and notions of morality), they can still reach God/Ishvara. Some may go on to state that leading a moral life while performing one's duties righteously itself is the goal rather than a path which leads to a goal
thank you for your presentation. A refreshingly sincere attempt at the perceptions about Hinduism being polytheistic but in reality is a monithistic Sanathana Dharma that is evolved from teachings as way of life . Many gods being face of one. Really enjoyed discourse about Athma and Bramha . Cosmic creations and destructions as an ongoing process to me is a such a great understanding of ongoing cosmic forces .Kudos to the moderator for his input and great questions .
Nice effort to present Hinduism.
Due to the lack of time, the speaker probably does not go into detail about the Vedanta philosophy. The relation between the Atman and Brahman is different in the 3 schools of Vedanta. The speaker mentioned the Advaita philosophy (nondualism)) of Shankara but he did not talk about the Vishistadvaita (qualified monism) of Ramanuja and the Dvaita ( dualism) of Madhava. Dvaita philosophy is more similar to Christianity. The concept of "Nirguna Bahaman" ( god without qualities) unique to the Advaita was not acceptable to Madhava.
Devotion or sacrifice of the self, bringing religion from the head to the heart is actually the last step to going beyond. Its like jumping from a cliff with full belief and love for Brahman without a speck of doubt and that is what takes you back to it.
The speaker was quite informed about Hinduism or read enough to tell what it thinks and how it works. His last comment in Q&A says it all, where an idol of Jesus was given to a Hindu and he said great and added it to his other idols and the lack of exclusivity. That was the highlight for me being a Hindu.
As to non-existence, all Hindus deeply seek Moskha to be re-united with Brahman (eternal truth). That is the end state of a Hindu and very few get there. No Hindus will like re-birth because the ultimate goal is Moksha and freedom from re-birth.
BTW, Hinduism also says what you see around in the world around is Maya. Krishna says to Arjuna (warrior) what we see around is not real or reality or truth.
'Mumukshu' is any person yearning for Moksha (Enlightenment=Self Realisation and also translates into Liberation from the cycle of Birth and Death)
😊 good work.
The very honest and impressive presentation. To last question about purpose of Moksha, it is to unify the soul with the One Brahman, the highest level of soul, the God.
Yes, four yugas: Kritha, Thretha, Dwapara, and Kali.
Great Job.
6.47 confused with meditation. meditation and yoga are two things but look like one
Yoga has the same definition as religion in Sanskrit which means to yoked to the divine or spiritual path while religion means to binded to God or your spiritual path. In Hinduism Yoga generally means teaching and practice. What we commonly know as stretching yoga or originally Asana Yoga is one of many yogas. Meditation is Dhyāna. In Hinduism there is an 8 limb system that consists of 8 different yogas or spiritual teachings and practices:
Yamas (abstinences), niyama (observances), asana (postures), pranayama (breathing), pratyahara (withdrawal), dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation) and samadhi (absorption).
Hi For your better understanding and simplicity, not assume a drop of water, but assume a grain of salt, it will dissolve to the ocean.
Very respectful and honest discussion..
Probably could touch up on sanatana dharma which is more accurate name compared to Hinduism
Great presentation.
The last one point that you made at the end is exactly right, that multiplicity of their ' gods ' is so deep rooted in thier wjen they come to a Catholic church and see this iconic represntation of Jesus Mary and the saints they just take as one among thier gods. They don't understand this exclusiveness of our religion or Monotheism.I am an Indian Catholic and i wonder how many of our youngsters even can explain thier Faith and religion to thier friends and colleagues. This one of the questions that disturbes me.
While I am an Orthodox Christian, I have a deep respect for their understanding of Brahman and hope that said understanding leads them to Christ.
Hmmmm for commoners or beginners best way to understand Hindu morality is to understand why a person goes to hell or heaven in Hinduism ,,,,, but yes that's not ultimate goal of a hindu
About last question n on point answer given by father innocent 🤣🙌 there is a thing that you can never convert a hindu n becoming anything other that hindu coz its built in them. Yeah they might accept other religion but they won't be exclusive to one thing even after conversion. 800 years mughal invasions n trying to convert hindus in islam n after that 200 years British Christian rule in total even after 1000 years of foreign rule n conversion attempts india is still a 80% mejority hindu country tells you the answer of father 😅🙌 muslims literally converted many parts of the world into islam within 50-100 years but couldn't do it with India even after 1000 years. There is even a term in Islamic world called "gazwa-e-hind". The ultimate goal of Islamic conquest was to conquer indian subcontinent coz if they succeed to convert them into islam then they used to believe that they can conquer the whole world n so the success of the whole world conquest dream/mission of Islamic world rule😅🙏
not true. i left hinduism and converted to Orthodoxy.
Father Innocent comes across as a very learned and genuinely humble man. Unfortunately, most Christians in my experience have an extremely limited grasp of even the basics of other religions - Fr. Innocent seems to be an exception.
I just wanted to point out that not all 'Hindus' are impersonalists: Dvaita Vedanta (Madhva), Vishishtadvaita (Ramanuja) and Achintya-Bheda-Abheda (Gaudiya Vaishnavism) philosophies, for example, are HUGELY influential in India & beyond (e.g. Hare Krishna in the West).
Christ did not come to make disciples
Hinduism can be a great step towards Christ if used correctly. Somewhat like Justin Martyr interpreted pagan gods in the light of Logos, Hindu gods can be seen as pre-figurations of Christ. But this is where it stops. Hinduism is not Christianity and can never replace the True Presence of God in flesh, Christ. Without Christ, we don't have the hope of eternity, which is not infinite time, but time negated. Without Christ, we only have the tiredness and ennui of infinity. Infinite lives, infinite deaths, and we cannot help but thirst for relief from the unbearable heaviness of being. Precisely because Dharmic faiths don't have Christ, they cannot negate death. Since they cannot negate death, they negate life. He who cannot immortalize life must immortalize death.
WHILE HINDU gods existed even they found that mortal man was succumbed to death & rebirths until man merged with the divine after countless births. But Jesus or Prajapati as he is called by brahmans (men who knowledge of God) in Vedas destroyed death & rebirth. He is the vine we r the branches. If we believe in Jesus as the ultimate Bali (sacrifice) for our mismanagement of karma & dharma we r in union with God thru Jesus in the afterlife without rebirths & we obtain moksha. Jesus resurrected from death in 3 days. It shows he has poer over rebirths.