NOTE: The issue I had with Pop!_OS has been fixed for some time now. After the fix, a broken package should never be able to uninstall the desktop unless you specifically work around it. -LS
Lol. Well at least for once, you can't REALLY blame him for the core issue which was faulty dependency management, unlike Linus' other....drop habits. While you can argue that it is a users responsibilty to know what he is doing, this goes against the grain of what Apple preaches for MacOS: The distributor of software is responsible to ensure that the user can't make any dumb choices. Giving the user the option to remove his desktop environment on a supposedly beginner friendly OS is...not great foresight. This inherently contradicts a bit of Linux philosophy that says that the user is allowed and free to do whatever he wants as he bears the ultimate responsibility for his system.
Yeah, if something asks you if you're really really sure, type do as I say, I don't care about the warnings, disable the safety, on Linux, that is usually a sign that you should reread and rethink what you are doing. Interessting though that pop os can't even install the Steam deb without that kind of bullcrap.
@@iamtheusualguy2611 it does say don’t proceed in the terminal and that’s why there is a long message to agree to whatever it is you are doing. That message is basically a message of saying you’re about to jump off a cliff don’t do it and Linus did a somersault
Had a legit panic attack at "Yes, do as I say!" -- that warning as meant as the safety breaker to prevent newbs from tripping over what happened but much love guys, no hate. we have a ways to go and this is not discouraging :)
@@leophan2198 It pretty clearly stated it was removing a lot of stuff, including the GUI (not sure why it would remove all that to install steam, but seems to be some kind of conflict). This is why the GUI failed and the CLI made him type the silly phrase. It was supposed to make him realize that he doesn't actually want to do that, but clearly it failed.
Apt removing the entire desktop environment for the installation of Steam is a true Chad move, the developer who programmed is having a great time watching this.
@@woswasdenni1914 That would be Aptitude's fault then, because Pacman on Arch-based distros and Arch refuses to install anything with unmet or outdated dependencies
This is why Linus need so much employees to research. I know the experience. I have developed a fear at this point whenever the "packages to be REMOVED" list get too long but still...
At first I was really confused why Linus had to type "Yes, do as I say!", because in my 5 years using Linux on my Office Laptop I can't remember ever having to do that, especially for a seemingly simple install. It took only a few moments to realize why though.
@@frenkie_musicokay, this is a well known issue, it’s to do with some old packages that steam required. Basically, steam listed as a dependency a very old package, that replaced a package that was a dependency for a whole bunch of more modern packages. Namely the desktop and window manager, login screen, display server and graphics drivers - and a whole bunch of graphical packages that relied on those desktop packages went with it because they didn’t have a desktop to run on. “Yes, do as I say” was put up as a really clear warning, so that no one can just speed through the warning without thinking I should check that message. Linus didn’t realize that the message applied to him, as he’s been a power user on windows for a long time. tl;dr, linux cli warnings are there to be read!
@@frenkie_music If you read what the message says right before asking for his confirmation you'll realize the system was going to, for whatever reason, going to remove pop-desktop and related packages, which means he was deleting the whole graphical interface of the system. After doing it the rest of the system was probably fine as far as I can tell, but Linus would have no way to interact with it all other than through the command line.
I think the thing that Linus's experience makes abundantly clear is that when you're choosing a Linux distro, what you're really choosing is the people that maintain your package manager/app store. This is way more important than any silliness about desktop environments and should probably be communicated to new users better, and in a way that's easy for them to understand. "Don't choose the new distro that has about two people maintaining the upstream repositories" is a statement that's obvious to anyone who's used Linux in a professional or enterprise environment, but seems lost on most enthusiasts and is completely not communicated to new users.
Yeah, as I said earlier, Anthony should have picked the distro for them, and they should have made this a challenge about that distro specifically. Trying out "linux" as a whole makes about as much sense as "trying out bread".
@@seeibe the point is trying to get the experience anyone coming to this fresh gets. Demonstrating the utterly shitty experience a new user gets is at least part of the point. And part of that experience is trying to work out everything from what a distro is to how to install it and get it to work with your hardware.
@@zoeherriot That's what I'm saying. Nobody "coming to this fresh" should just pick their own distro. That shouldn't really be part of the experience, and the fact is being communicated as such is a part of the reason nobody wants to use linux.
@@seeibe I see your point - but isn't that the issue? I mean, in not sure what the alternative is given the Linux community is predicated on choice and freedom. I think that Linus's point was interesting that one way to circumvent that issue is to read articles to help make a choice - but all the articles were bad... there's a ways to go.
@@seeibe How do you suggest someone you know... chooses a distro? Linus looked at resources online as well as his prior knowledge which all nominated popOS as a good choice.
This type of LTT videos is my favourite. Not heavily scripted. No forced expressions. No weird reactions. No dumb jokes. Just Linus and Luke casually filming a tech adventure from their phones. Super nice and relaxing, and definitely fun to watch. Please make more videos like this.
Completely agreed, I have been watching LTT since 2012 and I really miss their less scripted videos, I feel like maybe 2018 is when they started heavily scripting stuff and making it less human like and more robot like, I still love LTT but please make more like this.
When the Daily Driver series ends, I really hope Anthony is allowed to do a series where he goes through clips of all the mistakes and offers solutions. Would also be cool to see him do a Linux gaming rig video or two where he basically walks through all the setup steps so that anyone who wants to switch over to Linux can have a more Windows like experience where you just get what you get and it is ready to go.
As mentioned by Robbierut, you wont have that Windows experience. Unfortunately on Linux your hardware changes quite a lot the amount of troubles you will have on the way of setup.
Was it broken? He never ran "startx" (to start the GUI). I'm wondering if the GUI may have still been installed, Pop OS! was just set to boot in Terminal.
@@names_are_useless At 10:38 you can see that it removed GNOME Shell and GDM. So yeah unfortunately it uninstalled the whole GUI. Also, even if it had just disabled GDM, that still counts as "broken" to someone coming from Windows.
The first part where Linus talks about how confusing it is to choose a distro based on those tech review sites has annoyed me so much over the years. They make no sense, and resemble 0 consistency most of the time.
Why I suggest to anyone who wants to run linux to test drive many different distros and pick the one that best works for them. I use linux daily and still to this day run different distros and try new ones out just to see what they are all about. I find that is the fun of having many options, but do understand how confusing it can be to someone who is new to linux and just wants something that they can boot up and run without having to mess around all that much
From 02:35 Linus points out a general problem with pretty much all search engine top results (e.g. overly seo-optimized crappy articles). This on it’s own might be a good topic to explore.
Google(and some other companies) filter the search results and what you see on the first pages are articles that are guaranteed to not spread controversal speech. That is a huge part of speech and the amount of false positives is a big issue. There are search engines not doing this but I don´t want to get banned for advertising or something.
OMG it's like, "Could you search for something I typed in?!" So much worthless garbage always comes up first and I have to manipulate my searches beyond recognition just to get want I need. @Ľuboš Mudrák Yeah that stupid woke trash pisses me off as well.
Everyone should understand this: Google is NOT a reliable search engine, and it will display what advertisers want rather than the information you need. This is why you're presented with products, absolute garbage and misleading articles half the time and this is also why the number of alternative search engines has increased.
Haha, i love the contrast between Luke casually trudging along with a little uncertainty, but no issues. Then cutting to Linus where things are going a little crazy until the GUI is nuked XD Tbf it makes no sense that a steam install would remove critical packages
@@vinson3725it’s really not, I’ve been using ubuntu linux for 5 years now on like 5 or 6 different computers. “sudo apt install steam” is usually the first thing I do when I install ubuntu on a new computer and it’s always been a one step process. Linus had some funky shit going on. Linux doesn’t give you huge walls of text as a warning in the terminal unless something has gone horribly wrong lol.
Hot take, derived from painful personal experience: better to bork a system a mere 15 minutes into the installation process than to bork it after 15 days.
This is why you install Timeshift or equivalent. Fuck up your Wayland? Just jump into a tty and throw everything into hard reverse. There's also Silverblue, which prevents most common fuckups and makes rolling back the others extremely easy and reliable. Source: I fucked up Wayland with a poorly placed rm -rf
@@_colonial_ I feel like there's a galaxy brain meme out there that proceeds from cp (or dd) -> rsync -> timeshift, where the punchline is: "ansible." That is to say, in a world where I'm already abiding by the 3-2-1 rule for backing up data, I really don't care about rolling back bad changes to my OS as much as I care about reconfiguring my system from scratch.
I'm not ashamed to say, I missed Luke. So glad to see him back. Really glad you guys are doing this challenge and sharing it with us. Its going to be quite a show.
Yeah i am sure he would be disappointed in pop OS aswell. My experience with Linux has been similar. Can't install shit from app store and i hate using sudo apt get for everything. And even then some shit doesn't work AND a lot of them don't auto update. Even windows XP was more user friendly than ubuntu 21. They keep working on their UI making it fancy and giving pretty animations but won't figure out a simple way to Install and update apps which works across all distros 🤦🏼
@@rph_redacted I mean you could use arch which has solid package handling (i.e software setup) as a core feature. There is always an option in linux if you prefer something
Difference between Chad Linux Mint and Soyboy distros like Pop! OSAnd Manjaro. The only issue Luke even showed with his was something super simple to fix too he just didn’t know where in the settings to look
@@malcomreynolds3306 If installing a game results in the OS showing a button that says "self-destruct [y/N]" and I have to say yes to get my game installed, that's on the OS. Windows hann't shown be a self-destruct button in years.
@@malcomreynolds3306 It's entirely PopOS's fault. Why was Steam even hooked into those OS dependencies? PopOS fucked up big time - they broke it, they fixed it, just not in time for Linus' run of it. This shit needs to be detected pre-release, NOT when it's in production. Linus did nothing wrong. The GUI Package Manager should've just worked as advertised, didn't, and this is the havoc it can cause.
To anyone wishing to try Linux: go for it, but it's a good idea to pause and consider the meaning of messages like "You are trying to delete the following essential packages..."
@@arlieproductions4794 Windows is great for certain people. You're a gamer who loves COD Zombies and has a clone trooper profile picture. You will definitely have a better time on Windows.
It's because on windows you always get urgent messages and stuff all the time, so your brain learns to just ignore the warnings and proceed. On Linux when you get a warning it's because its very serious, especially on the terminal, but your windows brain thinks its normal and then you nuke your DE.
@@Perseagatuna The problem was the system didn't just warn him, it outright STOPPED him. He was denied and then briefly researched the CLI solution online and probably never read more than 2 words outside the actual commands to copy. UAC alerts may be common, but that's because it's calibrated for durnrnies like Linus who will run executables at elevated privileges without a second thought.
This episode has been out on floatplane for a couple weeks now (none of the others so far) So I’m assuming they waited for the challenge to over internally to put out the videos on UA-cam
@@Melmer_723 it actually had more to do with TechTober, they had other videos which needed more urgent attention on the main channel than this series. Part 2 and 3 should be done now and will prob drop here sooner than Part 1
this is a good example of how SEO-hungry blog "articles" are annoyingly unreliable in general, despite being at the top of the google results. happens to me whenever i google a broad/general topic, such as "alternatives to [software]".
I spent days trying every program that shows up when you google "how to make a bootable usb stick". None of them worked. What I needed was one article to say "You need uefi enabled to boot from usb. Do you have uefi enabled on that 8 year old crappy laptop you're trying to update?"
@Atlas Dankworth Likely bots aggregating the content and then getting pushed to the top in search results because they cover so many different comparisons all in one place. Plus, if those ads on the comparison site are google ad-words, then there is a second reason for google to push them to the top to drive traffic to their ad platform. In general, search results for non-academic research topics suck though.
@@realtechhacks i always watch (well technically just listen) wan show when im driving to work. I travel for 3 hours and this is my companion the whole way haha. Best podcast material.
@@Pichipieify I always listen to the podcast format and it annoys me to no end how long it takes whoever from lmg is responsible to put it in that format.
Btw, that fun highlight switching in Linus' start menu isnt a *bug*. Microsoft decided, that it should work with game controllers, so if you have one lying on its face with the joystick tilted a little bit, that happens. I was troubleshooting for days because of that a while ago.
@@SuperFlawless2010 There are plenty of games that work better with controllers: racing games, platformers, some action games. If you wanna play Forza on a keyboard that's your prerogative but I'm gonna think you're weird.
@@SuperFlawless2010 Sorry but that's a braindead take. The best thing about the PC platform is the choices you have, including whether to use keyboard/mouse or a controller.
oh it's a bug alright. it happens to me all the time even when I do stuff with the controller or unplug it etc. definitely bugged even if it's a new feature.
My personal experience from running Linux full time for several years has been that every year its noticeably better, but for enthusiasts with enthusiast hardware it can be a royal pain, but if you're running similar hardware to what you'd find in an office it'll be pretty smooth. Additionally game compatibility, especially using Wine and Lutris tends to be very hit or miss and what works for most people can entirely refuse to work for you, and lots of strange bugs and crashes that you never know where the issue lies. Personally, I have a windows Gaming machine then do everything else in Linux to get the best balance because game compatibility is always a hassle at the worst times, but windows is also a hassle at the worst times when you want to do pretty much anything else.
Actually, this is an perfect example what NOT to do, that Linus did. When the package manager basically scream in your face not to do that, and you continue, then it is an accident to happen. And it did. If Linus has known what he did, he would not forced the package manager to install Steam package. And he could as easy reinstalled the GUI. Yes, Linus is great at administrating MS Windows, because he basically have done that for 20 years or so. BUT when it come to Linux, he really is a beginner, and should not expect what works in MS Window swill work the same in Linux.
@@AndersJackson It's still a good example of how a regular user will see things. I have users that have to call multiple times a day from locking themselves out of AD or don't know where the start button is. THAT is normal users. This is a hospital btw, doctors...
@@AndersJackson Sounds as if you are putting any blame at all on Linus (even if it's just 1%). It was 0% Linus' fault. These sort of problems are why people don't use Linux; people should not be expected to know anything.
@@deedoubs probably. Following the path less traveled can be an adventure too though. Watching Linus was like spectating at the smash up derby. He's like only one of them.
It's great to see Luke back. Sometimes I wish he was on more then I realize other than Linus he is on LTT more than any other host because of the wan show.
@@alexdavis9324 im must glad he put his big boy pants on instead of the leecher he felt like when he started lol, the stories of his "office" attire would have made me and many people i know quit in that setting lol
The way that luke was hyping it up, I almost thought he was going to do something like Arch, Gentoo, or Linux from scratch. And then he said Mint and I almost died laughing.
@@Rainaman- I'm also a 10+ year user. But I think it's helpful. Because I'm willing to admit the only reason I'm good at Linux is I've been using it for a decade. It's not user friendly. That's probably it's biggest problem. Even so-called friendly distros like Pop have their moments. And then there's just "well I've been using windows for 2 decades I don't know how to do anything else"
"Hi, to install Steam, first we have to uninstall FCKING EVERYTHING" That does look like the kind of bug that really shouldn't have reached any end user. Glad that the Pop!_OS team fixed it, but judging from other comments, packages nuking the system are common enough to be a "feature" of the distro, like windows' BSoD.
Glad that the Pop!_OS team fixed it, > Distro advertised as good for gaming specifically > Apparently they update the main gaming distribution platform package without checking even once if it works from fresh install > it not only fails to install, it easily breaks the system given some user mistakes (tho just reinstalling x shouldn't be a rocket science really) That's a fail so spectacular they should just quit IMO.
@@troylambert1601 This wasn't even a full implosion, more a 7/10 implosion. You haven't seen a full implosion until you've accidentally wiped the network and USB drivers.
Because he didn't sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade Even normies (aka anybody who knows anything about Linux) *SHOULD* be able to comprehend something like that. Linux is designed to be simple, with as little focus on GUI as possible. You can do waaaaayy more in tiled TTY than you can do in a GUI (that's not to say that GUI doesn't have it's place - there are plenty of things that simply can't be accomplished in TTY). But, the entire point of this video was. . .wait for it. . .switching to an OS that isn't designed for gaming, specifically so that Jake could do gaming. And complaining about that just makes me dislike this channel even more.
Live cds are one of my favourite parts of most linux distros it's super useful for whenever you mess something up or need to do some heavy drive management
The best thing about linux is that you can tell the OS to do whatever you want. The worst thing about linux is that you can tell the OS to do whatever you want.
This should not be possible when installing Steam. This is the problem Linux has. Normal user don't read this long messages and say "yes do it". Linux is still not simple to use for newbes.
i do like how later he admits he "didnt read" the displayed info ... lets face it in any Linux installation process it displays so much potentially serious information that many of us basically ignore ... each install i skim through the warnings and look briefly for red flags but its a rare occasion that ill read and check all of it
@Old Trafford just the graphic shell. The OS was still functioning pretty well and cand be fixed by reinstalling the graphic shell. Windows has done similar stuff in the past (letting a certificate expire which caused multiple windows apps to be unusable)
@@joshuapritchard575 "This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!" and "You are about to do something potentially harmful" should be a red flag to anyone, not to mention people are too reckless using sudo commands
If you read the first comment of the comment section, you see it’s a bad timing and lack of knowledge about errors from Linus. Some errors/prompts are there to throw big red flags.
@@gamunu.b Exactly, I'm genuinely curious how Linus managed to nuke the system with trying to install Steam? The 'Yes, do as I say' is a big deal for someone who knows linux, but a newbie?
@@aedieal Yes, but I suppose is natural for most (gaming) users to want to install Steam. So, I can't blame him for forcing the install even when the GUI said no. I don't know much about package maintenance, but why would removing the display server be required to install Steam? If the package had worked properly he would have been able to get gaming immediately.
I feel like since the Steam Deck has been released, we need a Linux gaming followup (since the Proton compatibility layer has been improved by leaps and bounds). You could pretty much use any Linux distro with the ProtonGE and Wine compatibility layers, and have a great gaming experience. It's actually wild.
Lixus looks like a good idea just because steam deck is a gaming console only, the second you actually try to use it as a pc it's just as trash as the rest of linux os's
@@guotyr2502 What argument? You made an ignorant statement without any supporting commentary and I simply provided the rebuttal comments like that deserve. Now if you had talked about WHY you think that the state of the linux desktop in 2023 is crap (Especially in relation to proprietary desktop environments), there may be something to discuss. But, just throwing out that the linux desktop experience is trash is fairly pointless and not especially useful for anyone. Now all that being said; I use most systems out there and feel that properly configured linux DE's are generally superior to both Windows and MacOS mostly due to consistency and workflow. This of course is a personal opinion, but I can happily supply the reasons why if there is interest.
@@guotyr2502 Instead of calling you "ignorant" I'm gonna ask you to elaborate on what you mean. I've switched to Linux completely and I haven't had a situation where I needed Windows at all.
This is probably the best series on this channel since the original scrapyard wars. From a Linux chad (nerd), I love you guys. Excited to see more episodes!
As a technical engineer for a major enterprise Linux distributor and using Linux for several personal systems, this has been a blast to listen to on the WAN Show and now to finally see the series start. There is definitely a learning curve to this kind of jump, but you 2 taking it with such aplomb and energy is so enjoyable
As someone who never used Linux before and then daily drove Pop for about a year, you did fine. It took me 3 tries to actually install it (because I'm not at all computer savvy, so that's 100% on me, not on either Linux as a whole or pop!_OS), but being fairly bad at computers in general it was a fun experience. I learned a lot during that year, there was a lot of new things, and problems, to experience when you've used only Windows for 30 years but with googling and asking friends, I actually managed to do everything I usually do on a computer, including gaming.
It hit's hard to see Luke in LTT video once again in a long time. Reminds me of the simpler times when all videos were shot in a kitchen. Luke and Linus should do more videos together. Nice to see him back. 👍
But why? I remember having a similar experience with linux a few years ago. Like, I clicked install and it goes "okay, but in order to do that, first we have to break something very essential (like a GUI or sound). Shall we proceeed?"
@@selectthedead No. just check what the command does. No one (in a good forumn) will just give command and say try this. He/She will definetly explain if not just google the command it will tell what it means. You wont run into what linus faced but ya if you pause and see it clearly told it is removing most of popOs shell which I still dont know why it does for a simple install but it gave a heads up EDIT: forgot to boast "I use Arch BTW"
@@selectthedead you need sudo to install packages on basically all distros so that's not the thing you need to avoid. Instead you should look at the command and if the command tells you that it's going to remove system components you might not want to type "Yes do as I say". Common tip is to not run commands you don't understand.
@@luimu You need sudo for system packages, but many user packages can be installed without sudo. Steam being one of them. My preference is to first try without, and if it borks out, figure out why it borks out, and if the need for sudo is legitimate or will just brake my system.
@@luckysevs2583 Clicking the button didn't do that. The button gave an error and safely aborted. Going through manual hoops and explicitly confirming the removal of essential caused "that".
Luke caring what people think of him. Remember that quote Luke. "When you’re 20 you care what everyone thinks, when you’re 40 you stop caring what everyone thinks, when you’re 60 you realize no one was ever thinking about you in the first place." I'm 55! Haircut looks good Luke.
OMG... I am more old that I thought. I barely remember caring about what other thinks. And I starting to think nobody cares. I suppose to be 27 not 55.
21 here and been on the "nobody's thinking about me" for the last few years edit: and I feel really surprised to discover that people care to talk about me behind my back
Yeah its the biggest thing that teens out of high school need to realize ASAP. If its not a close loved one, nobody really gives a shit what you wear or look like. You'll be forgotten in 10 minutes anyways.
@NexusGen Inc. mostly linux are bloat free.. they don't even ship with essential drivers..and aosp is good for mobile.. windows 11 is basically clean with only essential apps like photos or messaging app "teams"...not sure about mac.. including gaming is just not right
@NexusGen Inc. Bruh, Steam basically lead him on to remove the "essential" packages. This was a massive bug. Its normal to think that maybe they aren't "essential" if the installation is telling you to do that.
I have a new computer now with the latest Nvidia GPU. I chose the "recommended" option for drivers in Linux Mint. They didn't work. I did a web search about it, but I could clearly see my pc was not using my GPU. I just went to Nvidia, chose the graphics card and OS, downloaded it and then realised it was between the options that I could have chosen. I did this and everything went perfect. Just a reminder for people that always follow the OS "hint".
@@darukutsu true. Normal user would have just mouse and keyboard and headset directly plugged into motherboard and also they would have older cpu and gpu.
@@darukutsu How is it unusual? He has threadripper 3000, a RTX 2000 series Titan (I think it is TItan but not sure), 64GB Ram I think, multiple monitors, peripherals and so on. GoXLR could be the problem because of lack of support, but other than that, what unusual is there?
I think it would be fun to have Anthony watch these videos and "react to them" or explain in his very technical understanding what probably went wrong. Would be a good second channel or main channel video.
Oh man, that feeling of staying up way later than you intended because something trivial broke on the linux machine you wanted to try out. It’s a feeling I know all too well, and even my CS bachelor’s degree couldn’t prepare me for these kinds of shenanigans. Looking forward to more in this series!
@@Shadowninja1200 Yeah it also depends on the country you're in. In my country (and uni) we learned basic stuff about Linux so far, but I'm certainly not going to dive deeper unless it's mandatory, Linux is defo not for me.
I like how the video quality tanked when the confetti flew up. It's like Tom Scott, himself was there, laughing as he started kicking the codec's teeth in.
@@viniciusmedinarj By not reading the warning. Here's the full warning in case you didn't read it either like Linus. WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed. This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing! You are about to do something potentially harmful.
The error that popped up when he was trying to install steam even warned him that it was trying to delete some important "Pop" files, which was the distro he selected... The reason sudo was needed was because it knew he was trying to delete something he shouldn't really have been and wanted to be completely sure ahaha
@@Topyy which is just such unfortunate timing. I literally went through this same process recently and steam installed just fine, but the one time the most popular tech youtuber tries to do it and broadcasts it out to millions and it fails so absolutely bad that it could practically damage the brand for life.
I just watched a "reaction" video on this, seeing Slick's brought me back to the channel to watch this series. He and Anthony (somewhat B-Roll too, though I have no interest in his interests) are the only hosts I "like".
Although the whole "deleting your desktop" was fun to watch and a good example about how actually reading and double-checking *before* executing sudo is a good thing, it's really insane that something as mundane as installing Steam would make that for some weird reason. I never saw this kind of thing happen before.
Apparently it was a broken update to Pop!_OS that was fixed almost immed but needed an update before installing steam and Linus had the bad luck to not have done this before installing steam
@@safarijam1360 the difference between windows and a Linux distro is Microsoft might push an update that breaks the OS very 500 updates but it's such a common occurrence with Linux distorts that it makes its a terrible choice for most people and most applications.
Thanks for doing this. I mained Linux for over ten years and my experience with it was basically the same as Linus's far too often, not that I ever inadvertently uninstalled my DE. I hope one day Linux can be as painless as Windows is for me.
apt: "This will remove pop-desktop and gnome-shell" linus: "Yes, do as I say!" me: NOOOOOOO! also me: Well but that only happened because the steam installation process sucked, so that very much looks like a "normal" user experience ... they better work on that some more.
How did it suck? He typed a command, the computer told him what it would do, and he told it to execute. Even on Windows, it's common knowledge for normies that best practice is to update your system before your apps.
@@imoldgregg7009 You shouldn't be able to uninstall critical software by trying to install anything else. It's bad user experience and just shows that developers didn't do usability testing at all. Software works as intended but user didn't expect it and user shouldn't be required to read a manual or watch a tutorial to know how to use your software.
Yup, it is terrible and many people don't realise just how difficult it may be to pick a distro as a user with literally no experience. And if you ask the users, vast majority of them will simply recommend whatever distro they are using. Which is why a lot of people will unironically give up on Linux while choosing a distro.
bro its so bad! literally every one bangs on about how good linux is, but they all intentionally dont talk about its limitations. i think i read somewhere in tiny print or a side note in a video somewhere that only 32bit windows programs work through wine and things, when every one everywhere is like look you can now run ALL your windows programs on linux, except the only reason i have a windows machine is because the Haltech ecu software i need to interface with my track car, it only has 64bit software, not to mention i spent 3 days and 6 different distros trying to get wine to install and none of them would install not through the command line or the stupid store thing, kept getting the same error msg. no one is honest about the limitations and they all inflate the abilitys, and expect you to know how to be a programmer lol, i just want a bloody OS that works, im not a big fan of windows, but hell after that experence i appreciate it a whole hell of a lot more now than i did before lol
Debian (aka Ubuntu) is still a solid choice for most people for a good reason xD. Literally setup my PC, installed Steam from their website (like you would on Windows), configured Steam PLAY, installed system updates and BOOM. Im gaming on Ubuntu 20.04/21.04 LTS, have been for months. Not ALL game titles work, some require some finagling to get working properly (Mass Effect, Space Engineers to name the two ive had issues with) but for the main part Steam Proton has gotten VERY good at handling non linux games
Finally, I've been waiting for a series like this for more than 2 years. Also can I just say how cool having Luke back is. I'm sure Luke has plenty of work to do with Floatplane, but I would love to see him on some more videos.
An interesting thing I discovered by accident is that if you want to wipe a Linux boot drive to install a different ISO, you can connect it via USB adaptors to an android cellphone, and you'll get a prompt to reformat the drive, when Linux and windows both stated they're not able to do exactly that. As a result, I was able to recover the use of a drive I had mistakenly made into a boot drive... And I discovered this purely by accident. 😂
@@Gramini I know I'm late but for some reason windows just refuses to format boot drives. It just fails with no explanation. Happened to me multiple times. Linux formats it with no issues though.
@@yorimirus Oh, thanks for the information. That's a classical Windows moment I guess. Also better late than never, especially when answering questions or providing details :)
To be fair, even as an experienced Linux User I managed to uninstall my GUI once myself. Granted, I was playing around with GPU drivers and it was 5 am, but linux doesn't really stop or warn you... it just accepts you know what you are doing ^^
Even as someone who has been daily driving Linux for a decade, the stuff in the first 5 minutes gives me a headache. We really need to do better. Other than that seeing Luke just breezing through mint was nice, and I can't wait to see the rest of this challenge
Honestly, mint is great. It has its small bugs (mouse sensitivity slider never working, for example, and occasional multi-monitor set up going wrong), but otherwise setting up is rather easy
I don't blame Linux as an OS for it. Windows has a multi-billion dollar company behind it to ensure compatibility and bugfixes for pretty much any hardware on the market. OSX has a company that only allows it to run on the two or three variants of hardware that it sells.
I’d love to switch to Linux, but definitely needs more work for average people. Personally I’m pretty knowledgeable, but I don’t feel like wrestling with my PC over issues that pop up when it’s easily fixable on Windows and even MacOS. The constant “Linux is easy” statements is like a collage student telling a kindergartner that adding is easy
Watching Linus run into these weird different errors reminds me of when I started using Linux back in '01. As someone who daily drives Linux, I'm kinda disappointed the new user experience hasn't improved as much as I had hoped.
Same, i started out with debian sarge (was pure bad luck i picked that not knowing it was meant more for servers) and had a real bad time, then switched to fedora and it took lots of trial and error to get things working. While I know what Linus had isn't the norm the fact that it's still so unintuitive and bad for a non techy person just saddens me. I am curious if WindowsFx is any better tho
Me too. It is like Linux developers don't believe that the average user will ever try it. Something like that is easy to fixed with more care for new users. It should had, for example, explanation of what every package that was prompted to removal do. Then you will understand that remove your desktop environment could let you with no graphical interface to run your OS (back to terminal days 60s - 80s). Will let with the only option it could be done, that it was to search for other package, like snap... I think that some Linux developers doom they own OS by don't believe in the potential of market that they have in hands.
I don't know man... Might sound elitist but these "noobfriendly" distros are just not worth it... Same goes for the new Arch installer... they are doing more bad than good... I feel like the time I needed to clean install Arch, BTW, was well worth it and now I have a system that never really breaks.... Maybe the distrowars should come to an end and the community needs to have a long and good talk about one distro for noobs instead of everyone cooking their own shit up... With Valve we got the momentum it's just so frustrating with all the evangelists
Been using Linux since '07 but I've long stopped attempting to convert other people to Linux. It's just not production-ready for the average user. I'm a developer and Linux is a great development platform, plus I care a lot about privacy and free software. But average Joe wants an easy to use system first, everything else comes second. Even Windows is kind of a shitty OS for average people, but at least you can get help for it because everyone knows it. Still, PC adoption rates are stagnating whereas pretty much every person on the planet has a smart phone nowadays, and I believe the simplicity of the OS is a big factor here.
The issues you guys had are really bizarre, we do need more user-oriented people legitimately using Linux the way an average person would, so we can improve as a whole, super glad to see Luke back on!
It's actually very typical lmao. Because bizarre problems occur in Linux ALL THE TIME. I'm a long-term linux user for over a decade now and a developer and even I get annoyed sometimes when things just don't seem to work with certain hardware or driver combinations or things randomly brick after a simple update unrelated to the actual problem.
@@iamtheusualguy2611 Exactly. I'm very familiar with linux/unix and their experiences were still very similar to mine. Those who push linux as a user friendly OS are either somehow getting lucky and avoiding these kinds of issues, or are experienced enough to not consider them problems at all. The average user is not going to want to deal with any of this. I hope we can eventually reach the point where linux has mainstream adoption, but we're pretty clearly not there yet.
I've used both Ubuntu and PopOS quite a lot and it's a weirdly common problem for the OS to attempt to uninstall the DE when installing a new program of even just updating sometimes. Such a strange thing, but I've learned never to upgrade or install anything without reading the package changes carefully because of it. I still love using Pop though
Thank you for viewing it this way. Really. A lot of the comments are blaming Linus for being bad at Linux when honestly a piece of software should never behave in such a way. I would say it's like having a gun that if you brace to your chest, it will stab you, and if you hold the handle while you pull the trigger you get electrocuted. This gun might have a special feature so that it literally defies physics and has no recoil so bracing and grip aren't required, but how would a new user ever know that? They would use it how they would use any gun until they learn the right way to do it.
@@Mobin92 no I totally understand that, but the output asking him to type that silly string is clearly warning him.. If it was me I would back out of it immediately.
The thing is that Linux and its ecosystem do _not_ close out ways to shoot yourself in the, not even foot, stomach, because it doesn't want to take away abilities from the user. Sometimes your really do need to do such operations for really advanced stuff. So apt let's you do thing like that if you tell it absolutely assure it you want to. That said, it probably would be a good idea to not enable this unless a flag was set AND a file in /etc/apt/ had a config setting set to true (though one would need an alternate way because read-only /etc mount is a possibility). Also, the phrase to repeat really should be something like "Yes, I understand this may break my system, but do it anyways"
Yeah. I saw that stuff about removing "pop desktop" and such, and knew that it was going to brick. My bet is the package maintainers left in some dependencies that were intended for ubuntu, etc, and incompatible with pop, so it uninstalled the pop stuff to install the necessary packages. Definitely not user error, IMO. Even if it warns you that you're going to break something, packages that broken should never make it into the main tree without being tested. Sure, if Linus was running a non-default DE/WM, you could blame it on an odd corner case, but there's no excuse for it to break that badly on a fresh install.
it could've been fixed with a KDE plasma install as it booted right into the command line but he didn't know that and distrohopped on the first day.. its alright considering that he has practically no experience...
If he was dropped to the CLI to install steam I'm guessing he added some third party repo. Bet you a coke the problem with the steam install in the first place was not updating before trying to install, I don't use software store (apt-get all the way lol) much but does it update the package list by default before trying to run installs?
My little sister needed a netbook for school so instead of buying a new one i decided to install lubuntu in a 2011 old laptop of mine, kid you not it was a pain to set up, but everytime i went into a error or trouble there was a tutorial on how to fix it, after an entire day of problem fixing the dual boot and grub i felt an indescribable joy when the lubuntu logo appeared and it booted, to be honest it let me learn a lot, i was happy with the result that pc has never seen so much productivity not even when new with windows 7, and even tho it was not so user friendly to start it let me see the true potential of the hardware. And my sister more than happy even saying she is like Hecker the floopa cuz she nows uses the SO of the pros 😊😂
So, I just read the Debian package changelog on my server which had a "news" item for the apt package manager and it reads as follows: The solver will no longer try to remove Essential or Protected packages, any dependency problem that would need such a solution will have to be resolved manually. The "Yes, do as I say" prompt for removing essential packages has been replaced by an error message. The appropriate command-line option needs to be used instead. Thank you to Linus Tech Tips and System76 for bringing this issue to our attention. Now, trying to install Steam with broken dependencies will no longer be able to destroy your whole desktop environment. It also won't install Steam until you fix whatever dependency is broken, but at least you cannot manoeuvre yourself into a more broken install any more.
The fact that Pop!_OS just *happened* to be borked when Linus tried it was unfortunate, but also kinda hilarious. Hopefully the other challenges went better than that for him.
I've tried popos on two computers and each time the whole os was borked within a couple weeks of me using it - as best as I can tell in my case it is some issue with the recovery partition defaults - I moved on to fedora and haven't had any issues since then
@@danieljensen2626 Lol. Yeah I had a few issues with Manjaro myself which were probably easy to solve but I was completely new. I had 0 knowledge of Linux at the time. Also I was using KDE, which made things much more difficult.
@@geodescent it happened more than a month ago (and from what I've heard was noticed and fixed by devs few hours after ISO with broken Steam package went live) The fact that this brief window was the moment when Linus was trying Pop OS is indeed hilariously well timed PR clusterfuck for System 76
I love the "mad scientist" picture of Wendell. My dream video is Wendell and Anthony on a couch, with popcorn, reviewing this. It's gonna be the Linux nerds new favorite sitcom :P
" it's possible that i'm responsible " well yes you had 2 pretty straight warnings that it would uninstall your desktop environment, you even had to type to confirm the removal of the packages. it was written right before your eyes, 10 seconds read.
I think the biggest positive force behind upcoming Linux gaming compatability is the Steamdeck. While making your game Linux compatible in the past was a nice feature, the Steamdeck actively incentives developers to do so as part of their standard development process.
10 months later and it's looking soooo much better. Once you realize the power of ProtonGE + Steam Launch options, gaming on Linux is better than Windows, full stop. The caveat is that you have to work a little for it to perform that well. If you just install and run, it performs about the same as Windows. I've got a 10th gen i5 with UHD630 graphics and it can run games with 1080p @50-60fps output that it should NEVER be running. MGS5, Far Cry 3, Dark Souls 2, all at high settings. Wayland is incredible for anyone that doesn't need +60fps. Every frame is perfect, so there's no need for VSync. Meanwhile Hogwarts Legacy is using "Steam Deck Verified," which essentially means "Linux Verified," as a marketing tool. It's insane how far it's come.
@@proctoscopefilms I pretty much play all of my games on Steamdeck🎲 at this point, so it has definitely worked out. I'm generally not an early adopter of new hardware, but I have zero regrets for preordering the Steamdeck.
@@infin1ty850 me too! I set up a steambox with that laptop and I can't stop using it, even though I have another, way more powerful computer. I think some of that is the SteamUI user experience. SteamUI and the PlayStation XMB menu are the best console UIs I've seen.
or not touch anything when just... updating software >updating mysql nice >updating grub, DE, Xserver, initramfs some shit there and there why. why are you doing this, if i stop you right now you'll be bricked >bricked it's not linux the problem, it's the morons who force shit into it like, bloatware, their own taste in GUI/icon theme updates (forced) and of course, "free"drivers that are fucked up.
as a Linux user for more than 10 years, that error Linus had is totally on the developer side, Linus did what any first time user would do. The part where he follows an online tutorial and it says "sure, type the Yes, do as I say" is a classy rookie mistake
yes I'm an apps developer and the user experience is one of the most important parts of creating any software, you gotta make it easy to use and understand even for the most non techie people (even if it is CLI)
I may be wrong but I wonder if Linus updated the OS before proceeding to install steam. I suspect a few package replacement as part of the update got mixed with the steam package install and something went wrong during the update (leaving the OS without gnome as it seemed to be among the meta packages to be removed). The OS definitely breaked itself, but I kinda hope it was more a "didn't update after first boot" situation (not that it make it better for a new user)
The Steam package being broken is bad on PopOS but the package manager told him very clearly that what he was doing was probably harmful and that he shouldn't continue unless he knew what he was doing. What else can the package manager do in that situation?
Even it it should be that easy (it really isn't, it's a terminal command with "Yes, do as I say" as Co formation instead of the typical y/n) it should not happen when installing steam. And Linux nerds wonder why people hate that shite OS.
@@Pingwinho Bug like this happens in computers no matter your OS. That why you should update your system once you install it before installing anything else. I once had a bug with visual studio that prevented me from compiling C code because some system files were not there. C++ worked tho for whatever reason.
14:00 You WERE responsible (after all you told him to "do as I say"), but honestly this is totally ridiculous. I'm a longtime linux user myself (and I game on manjaro without any issues yay!), but issues like this is why linux has such a bad rep in general. If you can't even install steam from the store after a clean OS install because it would nuke your desktop environment (which you did manually afterwards, could've seen that coming) on a *commercially maintained* distribution... I don't even know what to say, we need to do way better than that.
I don't know about you but it seems to me like every time someone who is tech savvy tries to daily drive Linux, they encounter bugs that no one has ever seen before lol
maybe linux will just never be for main stream user on a desktop. the same way a dump truck will never be a main stream car to take your kids to school
i'm still completely at a loss as to WHY trying to install Steam would require UNINSTALLING the desktop environment to begin with o.O like, what the actual fuck?
NOTE: The issue I had with Pop!_OS has been fixed for some time now. After the fix, a broken package should never be able to uninstall the desktop unless you specifically work around it. -LS
Pog
hope manjaro does not cause more problems to him, like to me 2yeaes ago :)
And thought it was linus's fault
He might've dropped the ssd or something
XD
That’s cool
Can we get an "Anthony Reacts" series of him reacting to this series?
This.
I'm sure he'll be just as confused as all of us about how Steam uninstalled Linus's desktop environment, haha.
This.
we need this!!
I totally agree
Of all the things Linus is able to drop, i never expected that he would drop and entire linux distro.
Got Em, lmao
Lol. Well at least for once, you can't REALLY blame him for the core issue which was faulty dependency management, unlike Linus' other....drop habits.
While you can argue that it is a users responsibilty to know what he is doing, this goes against the grain of what Apple preaches for MacOS: The distributor of software is responsible to ensure that the user can't make any dumb choices. Giving the user the option to remove his desktop environment on a supposedly beginner friendly OS is...not great foresight. This inherently contradicts a bit of Linux philosophy that says that the user is allowed and free to do whatever he wants as he bears the ultimate responsibility for his system.
@@iamtheusualguy2611 Bro he wanted to install steam, pressed install and it deleted his GUI
Yeah, if something asks you if you're really really sure, type do as I say, I don't care about the warnings, disable the safety, on Linux, that is usually a sign that you should reread and rethink what you are doing. Interessting though that pop os can't even install the Steam deb without that kind of bullcrap.
@@iamtheusualguy2611 it does say don’t proceed in the terminal and that’s why there is a long message to agree to whatever it is you are doing. That message is basically a message of saying you’re about to jump off a cliff don’t do it and Linus did a somersault
Linus: Documentary level camera movement
Luke: Blair witch Project
Had a legit panic attack at "Yes, do as I say!" -- that warning as meant as the safety breaker to prevent newbs from tripping over what happened but much love guys, no hate. we have a ways to go and this is not discouraging :)
That warning needs to be worded substantially better imo. It is way to easy for a casual to not understand.
Do you know what he did wrong there? Really curious.
Why did `sudo apt-get install steam` brick the install though?
@@leophan2198 It pretty clearly stated it was removing a lot of stuff, including the GUI (not sure why it would remove all that to install steam, but seems to be some kind of conflict). This is why the GUI failed and the CLI made him type the silly phrase. It was supposed to make him realize that he doesn't actually want to do that, but clearly it failed.
Good end user demonstration of not reading the warning at all, and just typing yes :D
(Otherwise no idea what went wrong to get to that state)
Apt removing the entire desktop environment for the installation of Steam is a true Chad move, the developer who programmed is having a great time watching this.
not atp fault. conflicting package requirements and unresolved dependicy trees.
thats why linux as a desktop OS sucks
@@woswasdenni1914 That's not "Linux" bro, that's either Apt or stuff fucked up inside of Pop!_OS
@@WolfVidya dependencie hell, im happy taht arch based linux have less of this problem but still encountert similar issues in my 5years of linux
I daily Arch and never got any issue even closely related to that... Main problem is that Linux doesn't do hand holding
@@woswasdenni1914 That would be Aptitude's fault then, because Pacman on Arch-based distros and Arch refuses to install anything with unmet or outdated dependencies
"Yes, do as I say!" - famous last words
"Uninstall your entire computer"
Linux: Yeah sure.
Linus: Wait a minute, did something go wrong?
@@AURON2401 well, at least he got steam installed
That's usually why I prefer to not lead people to manjaro/endeavour instead of just properly understand the system and how to maintain it
Big warning there and all, but that's quite a fail from the package maintainer(s).
This is why Linus need so much employees to research. I know the experience. I have developed a fear at this point whenever the "packages to be REMOVED" list get too long but still...
At first I was really confused why Linus had to type "Yes, do as I say!", because in my 5 years using Linux on my Office Laptop I can't remember ever having to do that, especially for a seemingly simple install. It took only a few moments to realize why though.
explain pls, i was wondering
@@frenkie_musicokay, this is a well known issue, it’s to do with some old packages that steam required.
Basically, steam listed as a dependency a very old package, that replaced a package that was a dependency for a whole bunch of more modern packages. Namely the desktop and window manager, login screen, display server and graphics drivers - and a whole bunch of graphical packages that relied on those desktop packages went with it because they didn’t have a desktop to run on.
“Yes, do as I say” was put up as a really clear warning, so that no one can just speed through the warning without thinking I should check that message.
Linus didn’t realize that the message applied to him, as he’s been a power user on windows for a long time.
tl;dr, linux cli warnings are there to be read!
@@frenkie_music He deleted his whole entire system
@@frenkie_music If you read what the message says right before asking for his confirmation you'll realize the system was going to, for whatever reason, going to remove pop-desktop and related packages, which means he was deleting the whole graphical interface of the system. After doing it the rest of the system was probably fine as far as I can tell, but Linus would have no way to interact with it all other than through the command line.
Yeah I see okay, thanks@@theviniso
I think the thing that Linus's experience makes abundantly clear is that when you're choosing a Linux distro, what you're really choosing is the people that maintain your package manager/app store. This is way more important than any silliness about desktop environments and should probably be communicated to new users better, and in a way that's easy for them to understand.
"Don't choose the new distro that has about two people maintaining the upstream repositories" is a statement that's obvious to anyone who's used Linux in a professional or enterprise environment, but seems lost on most enthusiasts and is completely not communicated to new users.
Yeah, as I said earlier, Anthony should have picked the distro for them, and they should have made this a challenge about that distro specifically. Trying out "linux" as a whole makes about as much sense as "trying out bread".
@@seeibe the point is trying to get the experience anyone coming to this fresh gets. Demonstrating the utterly shitty experience a new user gets is at least part of the point. And part of that experience is trying to work out everything from what a distro is to how to install it and get it to work with your hardware.
@@zoeherriot That's what I'm saying. Nobody "coming to this fresh" should just pick their own distro. That shouldn't really be part of the experience, and the fact is being communicated as such is a part of the reason nobody wants to use linux.
@@seeibe I see your point - but isn't that the issue? I mean, in not sure what the alternative is given the Linux community is predicated on choice and freedom. I think that Linus's point was interesting that one way to circumvent that issue is to read articles to help make a choice - but all the articles were bad... there's a ways to go.
@@seeibe How do you suggest someone you know... chooses a distro? Linus looked at resources online as well as his prior knowledge which all nominated popOS as a good choice.
This type of LTT videos is my favourite. Not heavily scripted. No forced expressions. No weird reactions. No dumb jokes. Just Linus and Luke casually filming a tech adventure from their phones. Super nice and relaxing, and definitely fun to watch.
Please make more videos like this.
Completely agreed, I have been watching LTT since 2012 and I really miss their less scripted videos, I feel like maybe 2018 is when they started heavily scripting stuff and making it less human like and more robot like, I still love LTT but please make more like this.
They were genuinely flummoxed here. No acting was required.
When the Daily Driver series ends, I really hope Anthony is allowed to do a series where he goes through clips of all the mistakes and offers solutions. Would also be cool to see him do a Linux gaming rig video or two where he basically walks through all the setup steps so that anyone who wants to switch over to Linux can have a more Windows like experience where you just get what you get and it is ready to go.
up
That is a very good idea
As mentioned by Robbierut, you wont have that Windows experience. Unfortunately on Linux your hardware changes quite a lot the amount of troubles you will have on the way of setup.
Yep, we need someone to at least show what can be achieved. This vid set Linux back a long way for a lot of folk.
THIS!!!
What shocks me is that Luke had few to zero problems with Mint, but Linus broke his system with an apt command.
Was it broken? He never ran "startx" (to start the GUI). I'm wondering if the GUI may have still been installed, Pop OS! was just set to boot in Terminal.
@@names_are_useless At 10:38 you can see that it removed GNOME Shell and GDM. So yeah unfortunately it uninstalled the whole GUI.
Also, even if it had just disabled GDM, that still counts as "broken" to someone coming from Windows.
My only Problem with mint is that After Installation it needs an Update for Internet but you don't instantly notice the isue.
Why is it a shock to find out that linus doesnt know all that he pretends that he does?
He removed every package for the gui. @@names_are_useless
The first part where Linus talks about how confusing it is to choose a distro based on those tech review sites has annoyed me so much over the years. They make no sense, and resemble 0 consistency most of the time.
Pretty much an accurate representation of Linux in other words.
Yeah, like bro just pick Debian or Ubuntu wtf. Any other important thing can be installed/customized afterwards.
So true! Its the best and worst thing at the same time that there are so many distros.
Unfortunately there are a lot of blogspam sites. It’s best to just pick a popular well supported distribution and call it a day.
Why I suggest to anyone who wants to run linux to test drive many different distros and pick the one that best works for them. I use linux daily and still to this day run different distros and try new ones out just to see what they are all about. I find that is the fun of having many options, but do understand how confusing it can be to someone who is new to linux and just wants something that they can boot up and run without having to mess around all that much
From 02:35 Linus points out a general problem with pretty much all search engine top results (e.g. overly seo-optimized crappy articles). This on it’s own might be a good topic to explore.
Yes i never thought about that..
Google(and some other companies) filter the search results and what you see on the first pages are articles that are guaranteed to not spread controversal speech. That is a huge part of speech and the amount of false positives is a big issue. There are search engines not doing this but I don´t want to get banned for advertising or something.
Pretty sure they have talked about it. 🤔
OMG it's like, "Could you search for something I typed in?!" So much worthless garbage always comes up first and I have to manipulate my searches beyond recognition just to get want I need.
@Ľuboš Mudrák Yeah that stupid woke trash pisses me off as well.
Everyone should understand this: Google is NOT a reliable search engine, and it will display what advertisers want rather than the information you need. This is why you're presented with products, absolute garbage and misleading articles half the time and this is also why the number of alternative search engines has increased.
Holy crap, I miss Luke on LTT. Glad he's doing what he's doing now, but it is cool seeing him on a classic challenge-type series.
Now we just need Max back and the world we be a better place
@@LanceMabu we need Nicky V
@@fadelpw511 It's Nicky V, your mother's favorite house guest
@@fadelpw511 Nicky V ftw!!!
i mean you can watch the WAN show if you want more of luke
Haha, i love the contrast between Luke casually trudging along with a little uncertainty, but no issues. Then cutting to Linus where things are going a little crazy until the GUI is nuked XD
Tbf it makes no sense that a steam install would remove critical packages
that's Linux for you
It was a bug but why didn’t he read the warnings?
@@wilh3lmmusic because its a wall of text in the command line. No normal user is reading that.
@@vinson3725it’s really not, I’ve been using ubuntu linux for 5 years now on like 5 or 6 different computers. “sudo apt install steam” is usually the first thing I do when I install ubuntu on a new computer and it’s always been a one step process. Linus had some funky shit going on.
Linux doesn’t give you huge walls of text as a warning in the terminal unless something has gone horribly wrong lol.
Mint is the best distro, that's the truth
Hot take, derived from painful personal experience: better to bork a system a mere 15 minutes into the installation process than to bork it after 15 days.
Been there, done that. He speedran learning the "Slow down and read what packages are being removed" lesson.
Or rather don't use Linux because it's garbage
@@kvin9210 It's not garbage lol. It is definitely behind Windows on the desktop market but dominates every other aspect
This is why you install Timeshift or equivalent. Fuck up your Wayland? Just jump into a tty and throw everything into hard reverse.
There's also Silverblue, which prevents most common fuckups and makes rolling back the others extremely easy and reliable.
Source: I fucked up Wayland with a poorly placed rm -rf
@@_colonial_ I feel like there's a galaxy brain meme out there that proceeds from cp (or dd) -> rsync -> timeshift, where the punchline is: "ansible."
That is to say, in a world where I'm already abiding by the 3-2-1 rule for backing up data, I really don't care about rolling back bad changes to my OS as much as I care about reconfiguring my system from scratch.
I'm not ashamed to say, I missed Luke. So glad to see him back. Really glad you guys are doing this challenge and sharing it with us. Its going to be quite a show.
This is literally the most anticipated and hyped up video of the year for ltt
I see you too regularly follow WAN Show.
Well yes
Already watched it on floatplane a few days ago.
That and Luke's pregnancy! 🤰 Probably triplets
True
I spent an hour trying to figure out how to change the monitor orientations before I just swapped the cables. You win this round, Linux.
In Gnome and KDE you can just drag the displays around in the display configuration setting.
At the very end of this there needs to be a live stream of Anthony breaking down everything he would have done
Oh my god yes. Please.
I thought they had said they were doing that? Maybe it'll be a separate video...
Yeah i am sure he would be disappointed in pop OS aswell. My experience with Linux has been similar. Can't install shit from app store and i hate using sudo apt get for everything. And even then some shit doesn't work AND a lot of them don't auto update. Even windows XP was more user friendly than ubuntu 21.
They keep working on their UI making it fancy and giving pretty animations but won't figure out a simple way to Install and update apps which works across all distros 🤦🏼
@@rph_redacted I mean you could use arch which has solid package handling (i.e software setup) as a core feature.
There is always an option in linux if you prefer something
That's actually such a good idea. It'll give new users a place to find out common problems and how to fix them
Missed opportunity to call this series “Linus vs Linux”
smh
The real Linus has that problem too.
what bout Luke
Linux Tech Tips
What about Luke?
These video series needs an "Anthony reacts" to every one of them.
He needs to narrate it like a nature documentary
100%
This REALLY needs to happen. It would be great!
Agreed!!
Absolutely! That would be fantastic!
The word customization written in comic sans literally made me put my head in my hands and rethink all my life choices.
Yeah, pretty much.
Luke: "that wasn't really a challenge"
Linus: **reinstalling OS**
Difference between Chad Linux Mint and Soyboy distros like Pop! OSAnd Manjaro.
The only issue Luke even showed with his was something super simple to fix too he just didn’t know where in the settings to look
I mean, one guy used linux for two years as a kid and the other one... is Linus
Linus: I'm going to ignore the text on the screen then blame the OS
Pop OS: "Okay then buddy"
@@malcomreynolds3306 If installing a game results in the OS showing a button that says "self-destruct [y/N]" and I have to say yes to get my game installed, that's on the OS. Windows hann't shown be a self-destruct button in years.
@@malcomreynolds3306 It's entirely PopOS's fault. Why was Steam even hooked into those OS dependencies? PopOS fucked up big time - they broke it, they fixed it, just not in time for Linus' run of it. This shit needs to be detected pre-release, NOT when it's in production.
Linus did nothing wrong. The GUI Package Manager should've just worked as advertised, didn't, and this is the havoc it can cause.
At the very end of this, there needs to be a live stream with Anthony breaking down everything he would have done
ooooo, I like that idea
Golden Idea
I think they might've hinted at something like commentary on the process by Anthony.
That's not the point.
It would be fine at the end or a separate video but the point is just everyday users using Linux not people who are proficient.
*Linux first boot*
Linux: "Papa, is that you?"
Linus: "No, I'm the other one"
Linux: "Oh, ok..."
*Linux proceeds to die dramatically*
😂😂
*proceeds to die after talking about our sponsor, Glasswire.*
Legendary comment
That was perfect mate actually laughed at that, startled the shit out of my wife lol.
well you are not wrong
Linux dad also linus, but the other one
To anyone wishing to try Linux: go for it, but it's a good idea to pause and consider the meaning of messages like "You are trying to delete the following essential packages..."
And I'm here with experience with both MacOS and Linux to say to not try it and just get the by far more superior operating systems, windows!
@@arlieproductions4794 Windows is great for certain people. You're a gamer who loves COD Zombies and has a clone trooper profile picture. You will definitely have a better time on Windows.
@@encycl07pedia- This is very correct
It's because on windows you always get urgent messages and stuff all the time, so your brain learns to just ignore the warnings and proceed. On Linux when you get a warning it's because its very serious, especially on the terminal, but your windows brain thinks its normal and then you nuke your DE.
@@Perseagatuna The problem was the system didn't just warn him, it outright STOPPED him. He was denied and then briefly researched the CLI solution online and probably never read more than 2 words outside the actual commands to copy.
UAC alerts may be common, but that's because it's calibrated for durnrnies like Linus who will run executables at elevated privileges without a second thought.
I was physically hurt watching apt slowly disassemble Linus's desktop environment after he tried to install steam
It was the best thing ever tbh 🤣. Install to brick
That would really hurt a Linux Nerd Herder!
it's pretty fast tbh
apt is the reason I despise Debian. Pacman all the way
I feel like we’ve been hearing about this series for a year on the wan show
This episode has been out on floatplane for a couple weeks now (none of the others so far) So I’m assuming they waited for the challenge to over internally to put out the videos on UA-cam
This comment thread is cursed, so many spam in here
atleast 4 wan shows it was mentioned before starting the video series. But that's fine, it's hard to edit this all.
@@Melmer_723 it actually had more to do with TechTober, they had other videos which needed more urgent attention on the main channel than this series. Part 2 and 3 should be done now and will prob drop here sooner than Part 1
@@Melmer_723 they said it kept being pushed back by time sensitive stuff like embargoed videos
this is a good example of how SEO-hungry blog "articles" are annoyingly unreliable in general, despite being at the top of the google results. happens to me whenever i google a broad/general topic, such as "alternatives to [software]".
This almost got me crying because I was trying to find a very specific piece of info for an assignment and got absolutely nothing
Internet search as we know it is dead. It's a pitiful time for information.
I spent days trying every program that shows up when you google "how to make a bootable usb stick". None of them worked. What I needed was one article to say "You need uefi enabled to boot from usb. Do you have uefi enabled on that 8 year old crappy laptop you're trying to update?"
It was Toms. A site I'd have gone to *without* a search engine, as they've been mostly getting it right for at least 25 years.
@Atlas Dankworth Likely bots aggregating the content and then getting pushed to the top in search results because they cover so many different comparisons all in one place. Plus, if those ads on the comparison site are google ad-words, then there is a second reason for google to push them to the top to drive traffic to their ad platform.
In general, search results for non-academic research topics suck though.
System: You are trying to remove essential packages 📦
Linus: *What are you talking about?*
As someone, who never watches the WAN Show it is really nice to see Luke again in a video, I almost forgot about him being a great host.
I'm so sad about Luke not presenting anymore
Watch the wan show. Always. it's very entertaining, I promise.
@@realtechhacks i always watch (well technically just listen) wan show when im driving to work. I travel for 3 hours and this is my companion the whole way haha. Best podcast material.
@@Pichipieify I always listen to the podcast format and it annoys me to no end how long it takes whoever from lmg is responsible to put it in that format.
Btw, that fun highlight switching in Linus' start menu isnt a *bug*. Microsoft decided, that it should work with game controllers, so if you have one lying on its face with the joystick tilted a little bit, that happens. I was troubleshooting for days because of that a while ago.
Using controller on a PC. You got what you deserved LMAO
@@SuperFlawless2010 There are plenty of games that work better with controllers: racing games, platformers, some action games. If you wanna play Forza on a keyboard that's your prerogative but I'm gonna think you're weird.
@@SuperFlawless2010 Sorry but that's a braindead take. The best thing about the PC platform is the choices you have, including whether to use keyboard/mouse or a controller.
@@SuperFlawless2010 huh?
oh it's a bug alright. it happens to me all the time even when I do stuff with the controller or unplug it etc. definitely bugged even if it's a new feature.
Luke coming back for this challenge is just a treat for long time watchers, so much nostalgia.
yea I'm confused. does he still work with Linus and the team? what does he do now if not?
@@SpectorAFK Luke is in charge of floatplane I think.
@@gigabytetech5509 Yep, he also does the WAN show with linus
I'd prefer ESTER to come back....
Linus's sis n law. She's badass
my favorite part was when linus typed "Yes do as i say" to "Remove pop_os gnome"
When people don't read the stuff they do and the system asks "Dude, are you absolutely sure?"
@@smzig it was a bug that is now corrected
My favourite part is when he tried to install Steam on a fresh image and it said "hahhaa fuck you"
@@Ryan-093 Thats what we call "Ready for gaming"
To be fair, that would assume the user knows what "Gnome" means and tbh no "normal" user would expect fricking Steam to uninstall the Desktop!
I really hope they go through with this series, because this will set realistic expectation for new/interested users
My personal experience from running Linux full time for several years has been that every year its noticeably better, but for enthusiasts with enthusiast hardware it can be a royal pain, but if you're running similar hardware to what you'd find in an office it'll be pretty smooth. Additionally game compatibility, especially using Wine and Lutris tends to be very hit or miss and what works for most people can entirely refuse to work for you, and lots of strange bugs and crashes that you never know where the issue lies.
Personally, I have a windows Gaming machine then do everything else in Linux to get the best balance because game compatibility is always a hassle at the worst times, but windows is also a hassle at the worst times when you want to do pretty much anything else.
Actually, this is an perfect example what NOT to do, that Linus did.
When the package manager basically scream in your face not to do that, and you continue, then it is an accident to happen.
And it did.
If Linus has known what he did, he would not forced the package manager to install Steam package. And he could as easy reinstalled the GUI.
Yes, Linus is great at administrating MS Windows, because he basically have done that for 20 years or so.
BUT when it come to Linux, he really is a beginner, and should not expect what works in MS Window swill work the same in Linux.
@@AndersJackson It's still a good example of how a regular user will see things. I have users that have to call multiple times a day from locking themselves out of AD or don't know where the start button is. THAT is normal users. This is a hospital btw, doctors...
@@AndersJackson Sounds as if you are putting any blame at all on Linus (even if it's just 1%). It was 0% Linus' fault. These sort of problems are why people don't use Linux; people should not be expected to know anything.
@@AndersJackson this is why I like to use new linux distros in vms. Worst case I just roll back to a working snapshot.
wow, it hasn't even been a day and Linus is already distrohopping
As well any new user should. When you're starting off from zero there's a lot of ground to cover then.
@@1pcfred Honestly any new user should just pick one of the most popular best maintained distros... there's only like three of them.
@@deedoubs arch, Gentoo, or android.
I remember installing 5 different distros in a single day because reasons, LUL. I use Arch BTW
@@deedoubs probably. Following the path less traveled can be an adventure too though. Watching Linus was like spectating at the smash up derby. He's like only one of them.
Feels good seeing Luke back on the channel outside of the WAN show.
It's great to see Luke back. Sometimes I wish he was on more then I realize other than Linus he is on LTT more than any other host because of the wan show.
@@alexdavis9324 im must glad he put his big boy pants on instead of the leecher he felt like when he started lol, the stories of his "office" attire would have made me and many people i know quit in that setting lol
@@mikeymaiku Can you elaborate on that?
@@mikeymaiku what are you talking about?
@@mikeymaiku you seem not not actually know the real story of how it used to be in the old office house
The way that luke was hyping it up, I almost thought he was going to do something like Arch, Gentoo, or Linux from scratch. And then he said Mint and I almost died laughing.
I use mint btw?
This is also what he was afraid of hardcore Linux people hahah
nerd
Watching Luke or Linus trying to figure out Gentoo would have been absolutely crazy. Not that I'd be any better at it.
@@astronova6150Where do you think you are?
This is going to be an A+ series. Up there with scrapyard wars, Intel extreme upgrade, and mining adventures
As Linux user for more than 10 years, this was pain.
@@Rainaman- I'm also a 10+ year user. But I think it's helpful. Because I'm willing to admit the only reason I'm good at Linux is I've been using it for a decade.
It's not user friendly. That's probably it's biggest problem. Even so-called friendly distros like Pop have their moments.
And then there's just "well I've been using windows for 2 decades I don't know how to do anything else"
and secret shopper
@@Rainaman- Linus: I'm going to ignore the text on the screen then blame the OS
Pop OS: "Okay then buddy"
@@Rainaman- The Linux ecosystem needs to feel that pain in order to know how to be more user friendly
"Hi, to install Steam, first we have to uninstall FCKING EVERYTHING"
That does look like the kind of bug that really shouldn't have reached any end user. Glad that the Pop!_OS team fixed it, but judging from other comments, packages nuking the system are common enough to be a "feature" of the distro, like windows' BSoD.
The last time I had a BSoD, it was caused by my 24-pin not being seated correctly. Windows, despite its reputation, does not bluescreen often.
@@Telogor YMMV. Last time I had a BSOD, it was caused by it being a day that ends in "Y".
Should've been just tested before release.
Glad that the Pop!_OS team fixed it,
> Distro advertised as good for gaming specifically
> Apparently they update the main gaming distribution platform package without checking even once if it works from fresh install
> it not only fails to install, it easily breaks the system given some user mistakes
(tho just reinstalling x shouldn't be a rocket science really)
That's a fail so spectacular they should just quit IMO.
I had only one BSOD in last 5 years, that too when I tried to undervolt a CPU.
linus might have achieved a new world record in the linux implosion speedrun any%
I dunno, Full Linux implosion speed runs are a fairly competitive category.
@@troylambert1601 This wasn't even a full implosion, more a 7/10 implosion. You haven't seen a full implosion until you've accidentally wiped the network and USB drivers.
@@jamesm5787 runs sudo rm -rf /
@@pentasteve9723 It was some uninstaller that went nuts, but yeah, that's pretty much how it went.
Because he didn't sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade
Even normies (aka anybody who knows anything about Linux) *SHOULD* be able to comprehend something like that. Linux is designed to be simple, with as little focus on GUI as possible. You can do waaaaayy more in tiled TTY than you can do in a GUI (that's not to say that GUI doesn't have it's place - there are plenty of things that simply can't be accomplished in TTY). But, the entire point of this video was. . .wait for it. . .switching to an OS that isn't designed for gaming, specifically so that Jake could do gaming. And complaining about that just makes me dislike this channel even more.
Live cds are one of my favourite parts of most linux distros it's super useful for whenever you mess something up or need to do some heavy drive management
Linux: "Install Steem!"
OS: "Yes, uninstall essential packages?"
Linux: "YES!"
OS: *A s y o u w i s h*
Basically yes. :D
The best thing about linux is that you can tell the OS to do whatever you want.
The worst thing about linux is that you can tell the OS to do whatever you want.
This should not be possible when installing Steam. This is the problem Linux has. Normal user don't read this long messages and say "yes do it". Linux is still not simple to use for newbes.
@@martinharnisch7398 that was true weeks ago. Pop os fixed this bug super quick. It's not possible again.
@@martinharnisch7398 but this is only fixed in pop os as far as i know. On other distros you could have this problem.
apt : "This will remove pop-desktop and gnome-shell"
linus: "YES"
i do like how later he admits he "didnt read" the displayed info ... lets face it in any Linux installation process it displays so much potentially serious information that many of us basically ignore ... each install i skim through the warnings and look briefly for red flags but its a rare occasion that ill read and check all of it
@Old Trafford just the graphic shell. The OS was still functioning pretty well and cand be fixed by reinstalling the graphic shell. Windows has done similar stuff in the past (letting a certificate expire which caused multiple windows apps to be unusable)
@@joshuapritchard575 "This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!" and "You are about to do something potentially harmful" should be a red flag to anyone, not to mention people are too reckless using sudo commands
@@HenriqueAraujo174 Then what's the recommended behavior for newbie users to install Steam when the package manager doesn't work?
@@joshuapritchard575 Yeah, the only thing I usually look for is "does this remove anything?".
sudo: "are you sure?"
Linus: "Yes, do as I say"
sudo: "Alright team, he said Yes, let's show him who's boss. Apt, do the thing"
depressing for such a bad screw up from the pop team to be the first thing many curious users will see in this video
except it did not. He said `sudo apt-get install steam` not sudo apt-get remove popos*`
If you read the first comment of the comment section, you see it’s a bad timing and lack of knowledge about errors from Linus. Some errors/prompts are there to throw big red flags.
@@gamunu.b Exactly, I'm genuinely curious how Linus managed to nuke the system with trying to install Steam? The 'Yes, do as I say' is a big deal for someone who knows linux, but a newbie?
@@aedieal Yes, but I suppose is natural for most (gaming) users to want to install Steam. So, I can't blame him for forcing the install even when the GUI said no. I don't know much about package maintenance, but why would removing the display server be required to install Steam? If the package had worked properly he would have been able to get gaming immediately.
I feel like since the Steam Deck has been released, we need a Linux gaming followup (since the Proton compatibility layer has been improved by leaps and bounds). You could pretty much use any Linux distro with the ProtonGE and Wine compatibility layers, and have a great gaming experience. It's actually wild.
Lixus looks like a good idea just because steam deck is a gaming console only, the second you actually try to use it as a pc it's just as trash as the rest of linux os's
@@guotyr2502What an ignorant thing to say.
@@TheXipherZero nice no argument, go back to sleep
@@guotyr2502 What argument? You made an ignorant statement without any supporting commentary and I simply provided the rebuttal comments like that deserve.
Now if you had talked about WHY you think that the state of the linux desktop in 2023 is crap (Especially in relation to proprietary desktop environments), there may be something to discuss. But, just throwing out that the linux desktop experience is trash is fairly pointless and not especially useful for anyone.
Now all that being said; I use most systems out there and feel that properly configured linux DE's are generally superior to both Windows and MacOS mostly due to consistency and workflow. This of course is a personal opinion, but I can happily supply the reasons why if there is interest.
@@guotyr2502 Instead of calling you "ignorant" I'm gonna ask you to elaborate on what you mean. I've switched to Linux completely and I haven't had a situation where I needed Windows at all.
This is probably the best series on this channel since the original scrapyard wars. From a Linux chad (nerd), I love you guys. Excited to see more episodes!
I just realized I hadn't seen Luke standing for years, as they're only sitting during WAN Shows, LOL.
He looks so different in this video. Right?
@@DrBernon Don’t we all with age?
@@RikkSpencer Yes. But it's not that. I see him different compared to the wan show.
*he
You missed this video with Luke
ua-cam.com/video/Ng7PYafct4s/v-deo.html
As a technical engineer for a major enterprise Linux distributor and using Linux for several personal systems, this has been a blast to listen to on the WAN Show and now to finally see the series start. There is definitely a learning curve to this kind of jump, but you 2 taking it with such aplomb and energy is so enjoyable
red hat?
As someone who never used Linux before and then daily drove Pop for about a year, you did fine. It took me 3 tries to actually install it (because I'm not at all computer savvy, so that's 100% on me, not on either Linux as a whole or pop!_OS), but being fairly bad at computers in general it was a fun experience. I learned a lot during that year, there was a lot of new things, and problems, to experience when you've used only Windows for 30 years but with googling and asking friends, I actually managed to do everything I usually do on a computer, including gaming.
It hit's hard to see Luke in LTT video once again in a long time. Reminds me of the simpler times when all videos were shot in a kitchen. Luke and Linus should do more videos together. Nice to see him back. 👍
They’ve been doing the WAN show for quite a while now
@@oSonofStickman Love wan show, but its not the same as the good ol days!
10:40 The fastest system brick i have ever seen in my life! Even my first experiments with linux were not so devastating!
So if I ever find a "Solution" to an install problem that uses Sudo, never do it?
But why? I remember having a similar experience with linux a few years ago. Like, I clicked install and it goes "okay, but in order to do that, first we have to break something very essential (like a GUI or sound). Shall we proceeed?"
@@selectthedead No. just check what the command does. No one (in a good forumn) will just give command and say try this. He/She will definetly explain if not just google the command it will tell what it means. You wont run into what linus faced but ya if you pause and see it clearly told it is removing most of popOs shell which I still dont know why it does for a simple install but it gave a heads up
EDIT: forgot to boast "I use Arch BTW"
@@selectthedead you need sudo to install packages on basically all distros so that's not the thing you need to avoid. Instead you should look at the command and if the command tells you that it's going to remove system components you might not want to type "Yes do as I say". Common tip is to not run commands you don't understand.
@@luimu You need sudo for system packages, but many user packages can be installed without sudo. Steam being one of them. My preference is to first try without, and if it borks out, figure out why it borks out, and if the need for sudo is legitimate or will just brake my system.
It’s finally live! Stoked to follow this series.
Loved your video btw. Hope they have a better experience than you did lol
It was out on floatplane a week ago :D
It is quite the rolleroaster.
Dead cb channel..
System: "You are about to do something potentially harmful".
Linus: Yes, do as I say.
Video Title: Linux HATES Me.
Yeah, but that still shouldn’t be what clicking the “install steam” button does. This is 1000% on the manager of that package and/or the devs.
@@luckysevs2583 Clicking the button didn't do that. The button gave an error and safely aborted. Going through manual hoops and explicitly confirming the removal of essential caused "that".
@@Gramini äand every linux youtuber who reacted to this said it is pop os fault.
Luke caring what people think of him. Remember that quote Luke. "When you’re 20 you care what everyone thinks, when you’re 40 you stop caring what everyone thinks, when you’re 60 you realize no one was ever thinking about you in the first place." I'm 55! Haircut looks good Luke.
I know that quote is supposed to be endearing but damn that is depressing lol
OMG... I am more old that I thought.
I barely remember caring about what other thinks.
And I starting to think nobody cares.
I suppose to be 27 not 55.
So true I’m almost 30 and I don’t like that I care what people think, I guess I gotta wait till I’m 40
21 here and been on the "nobody's thinking about me" for the last few years
edit: and I feel really surprised to discover that people care to talk about me behind my back
Yeah its the biggest thing that teens out of high school need to realize ASAP. If its not a close loved one, nobody really gives a shit what you wear or look like. You'll be forgotten in 10 minutes anyways.
2:57 In hindsight, having a distro with pre-installed games would have made this first part of the challenge a little bit easier for Linus.
lmao
@NexusGen Inc. in fairness pop pushing out something broken is the real issue
Linux with bloat????😑where are you guys coming from
@NexusGen Inc. mostly linux are bloat free.. they don't even ship with essential drivers..and aosp is good for mobile.. windows 11 is basically clean with only essential apps like photos or messaging app "teams"...not sure about mac.. including gaming is just not right
@NexusGen Inc. Bruh, Steam basically lead him on to remove the "essential" packages. This was a massive bug. Its normal to think that maybe they aren't "essential" if the installation is telling you to do that.
I have a new computer now with the latest Nvidia GPU. I chose the "recommended" option for drivers in Linux Mint. They didn't work. I did a web search about it, but I could clearly see my pc was not using my GPU. I just went to Nvidia, chose the graphics card and OS, downloaded it and then realised it was between the options that I could have chosen. I did this and everything went perfect. Just a reminder for people that always follow the OS "hint".
I choose the raccommended driver and it works fine. 3060 ti btw
Linus is the perfect participant for this challenge. Cause he makes the same mistakes I or any average person new to Linux would make.
but his pc setup is unusual tho
@@darukutsu true. Normal user would have just mouse and keyboard and headset directly plugged into motherboard and also they would have older cpu and gpu.
I think it would be neat if they had a noob, middle and pro to see how each OS rates.
@@darukutsu I'm not even close to the average user and somehow I just have a decent rig, him, SEEMS LIKE HIS RIG IS LITTERALLY A SERVER.
@@darukutsu How is it unusual? He has threadripper 3000, a RTX 2000 series Titan (I think it is TItan but not sure), 64GB Ram I think, multiple monitors, peripherals and so on. GoXLR could be the problem because of lack of support, but other than that, what unusual is there?
Wonderful - just imagine Linus employees always asking him now on every occation: "Are you sure about this? Then please say 'Yes, do as I say'
This is the most underrated comment in the whole comment section
Or he can just say "sudo" if it's more important than other tasks
@@foreducation408 not any more 🤣
lmao, that'd be funny if this became a inside joke
Actually, Linus, by having that issue with Pop and instantly distro hopping, that automatically makes you a top notch linux chad xD
Man's got no time
I need this video combined with Intel Arc.
30 day Linux Daily Driver on Arc HAHAHAHA
The Pain Package
@@twandepan intel has great drivers on linux, im 100% that arc would be a way better experience than nvidia
@@sixunity1171 Oh really? Maybe it won't crash the PC in the first 60 seconds after all
@@twandepan sometimes i run games using my integrated intel graphics just because they are way more stable lol
@@sixunity1171 interesting
That transition from the computer screen to install mint for Luke was insanely smooth
I think it would be fun to have Anthony watch these videos and "react to them" or explain in his very technical understanding what probably went wrong. Would be a good second channel or main channel video.
yes plz
Probably because Linux isn't ready for normal day use
What went wrong is people pretending that desktop Linux is a thing.
Oh man, that feeling of staying up way later than you intended because something trivial broke on the linux machine you wanted to try out. It’s a feeling I know all too well, and even my CS bachelor’s degree couldn’t prepare me for these kinds of shenanigans.
Looking forward to more in this series!
Didn't you get a bunch of those experiences *while* getting the degree?
@@Lodinn really depends on what courses you want to take. I never finished my CS degree but none of my chosen courses would ever have me using Linux.
@@Shadowninja1200 An operating system course or a networking course should require linux
@@Shadowninja1200 Yeah it also depends on the country you're in. In my country (and uni) we learned basic stuff about Linux so far, but I'm certainly not going to dive deeper unless it's mandatory, Linux is defo not for me.
I like how the video quality tanked when the confetti flew up. It's like Tom Scott, himself was there, laughing as he started kicking the codec's teeth in.
I will be here to remember this moment when they eventually reupload the video to fix that.
@@TH3C001 it's not a video issue, just UA-cam compression algorithms who cannot deal with it.
Same with the dreaded rain in any video game
Luke: that wasn't really a challenge
meanwhile over at Linus.... 😂
not funny
didn't laugh
How Linus managed to wreck PopOS so quickly?
@@viniciusmedinarj By not reading the warning. Here's the full warning in case you didn't read it either like Linus.
WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed.
This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!
You are about to do something potentially harmful.
To be fair Luke had experience in using linux as daily drive before while linus only use it for making video
@@hitler69 by typing in “Yes, wreck my machine”
if sudo apt install steam nukes the entire desktop environment, it's absolutely hilarious. never seen that
The error that popped up when he was trying to install steam even warned him that it was trying to delete some important "Pop" files, which was the distro he selected...
The reason sudo was needed was because it knew he was trying to delete something he shouldn't really have been and wanted to be completely sure ahaha
Apparently a package error in the Pop shop, which basically means the person maintaining the steam package fucked up dependencies... Whoops
@@Topyy yep...
@@Topyy which is just such unfortunate timing. I literally went through this same process recently and steam installed just fine, but the one time the most popular tech youtuber tries to do it and broadcasts it out to millions and it fails so absolutely bad that it could practically damage the brand for life.
@@Ticktok_of_Oz To be faire, he went the "advanced user path" without actually being one, he popped up the terminal which a newbie shouldn't do.
gotta love how the installer literally said it was gonna remove pop os itself but linus was just like 'yeah that should be fine'
8:26 That transition had no business being that smooth
Right? Came to comment the same thing. Smooth as butter
God I missed seeing Luke host content, glad this challenge brought him back for a bit
I just watched a "reaction" video on this, seeing Slick's brought me back to the channel to watch this series. He and Anthony (somewhat B-Roll too, though I have no interest in his interests) are the only hosts I "like".
Excited to see the other parts with Luke in it. I like the new cast of LTT but there's just something about seeing Luke hosting that makes me happy
Although the whole "deleting your desktop" was fun to watch and a good example about how actually reading and double-checking *before* executing sudo is a good thing, it's really insane that something as mundane as installing Steam would make that for some weird reason. I never saw this kind of thing happen before.
Apparently it was a broken update to Pop!_OS that was fixed almost immed but needed an update before installing steam and Linus had the bad luck to not have done this before installing steam
@@safarijam1360 I think Pop! OS is the one with the bad luck here 😆
@@safarijam1360 the difference between windows and a Linux distro is Microsoft might push an update that breaks the OS very 500 updates but it's such a common occurrence with Linux distorts that it makes its a terrible choice for most people and most applications.
This has happened to me before on pop os lol.
@@zaixai9441 I disagree, I have had more broken windows update than linux.
Thanks for doing this. I mained Linux for over ten years and my experience with it was basically the same as Linus's far too often, not that I ever inadvertently uninstalled my DE. I hope one day Linux can be as painless as Windows is for me.
apt: "This will remove pop-desktop and gnome-shell"
linus: "Yes, do as I say!"
me: NOOOOOOO!
also me: Well but that only happened because the steam installation process sucked, so that very much looks like a "normal" user experience ... they better work on that some more.
How did it suck? He typed a command, the computer told him what it would do, and he told it to execute. Even on Windows, it's common knowledge for normies that best practice is to update your system before your apps.
@@imoldgregg7009 You shouldn't be able to uninstall critical software by trying to install anything else. It's bad user experience and just shows that developers didn't do usability testing at all. Software works as intended but user didn't expect it and user shouldn't be required to read a manual or watch a tutorial to know how to use your software.
@Marek Borowski you lot are insane and I say this as someone who exclusively uses Linux
@@ionezgb you just summarized my hate for Linux in those words
@Marek Borowski for the average user, it really is
A lot of useful takeaways here. For starters, the advertising/reviewing around distros is definitely godawful.
@TargetGalaxy straight Debian is... actually pretty straightforward and easy and less error prone than speciality distros.
It's absolutely atrocious. I've seen some news sites just republish old articles several years in a row with completely outdated information.
Yup, it is terrible and many people don't realise just how difficult it may be to pick a distro as a user with literally no experience. And if you ask the users, vast majority of them will simply recommend whatever distro they are using. Which is why a lot of people will unironically give up on Linux while choosing a distro.
bro its so bad! literally every one bangs on about how good linux is, but they all intentionally dont talk about its limitations. i think i read somewhere in tiny print or a side note in a video somewhere that only 32bit windows programs work through wine and things, when every one everywhere is like look you can now run ALL your windows programs on linux, except the only reason i have a windows machine is because the Haltech ecu software i need to interface with my track car, it only has 64bit software, not to mention i spent 3 days and 6 different distros trying to get wine to install and none of them would install not through the command line or the stupid store thing, kept getting the same error msg. no one is honest about the limitations and they all inflate the abilitys, and expect you to know how to be a programmer lol, i just want a bloody OS that works, im not a big fan of windows, but hell after that experence i appreciate it a whole hell of a lot more now than i did before lol
Debian (aka Ubuntu) is still a solid choice for most people for a good reason xD. Literally setup my PC, installed Steam from their website (like you would on Windows), configured Steam PLAY, installed system updates and BOOM. Im gaming on Ubuntu 20.04/21.04 LTS, have been for months.
Not ALL game titles work, some require some finagling to get working properly (Mass Effect, Space Engineers to name the two ive had issues with) but for the main part Steam Proton has gotten VERY good at handling non linux games
Finally, I've been waiting for a series like this for more than 2 years. Also can I just say how cool having Luke back is. I'm sure Luke has plenty of work to do with Floatplane, but I would love to see him on some more videos.
Yeah.......we only get him in WAN-shows now.
Love me some Luke.
An interesting thing I discovered by accident is that if you want to wipe a Linux boot drive to install a different ISO, you can connect it via USB adaptors to an android cellphone, and you'll get a prompt to reformat the drive, when Linux and windows both stated they're not able to do exactly that.
As a result, I was able to recover the use of a drive I had mistakenly made into a boot drive... And I discovered this purely by accident. 😂
What prevents you from formatting it from Linux/Windows? Should just be a visit in the drive manager.
@@Gramini I know I'm late but for some reason windows just refuses to format boot drives. It just fails with no explanation. Happened to me multiple times. Linux formats it with no issues though.
@@yorimirus Oh, thanks for the information. That's a classical Windows moment I guess.
Also better late than never, especially when answering questions or providing details :)
@@Gramini Glad to have been of help.
To be fair, even as an experienced Linux User I managed to uninstall my GUI once myself. Granted, I was playing around with GPU drivers and it was 5 am, but linux doesn't really stop or warn you... it just accepts you know what you are doing ^^
Linux never tells you no, sometimes its awesome, but most of the time you just nuke your GRUB.
That's why (among other reasons) that Android takes great care to make sure you have no root access whatsoever lol.
You only did that once? Hahahaaaaa
it, literally did warn him, clearly, several times.
@@robonator2945 it's still really dumb that one install can f* your os up. And linux users sound like cartman about it.
Even as someone who has been daily driving Linux for a decade, the stuff in the first 5 minutes gives me a headache. We really need to do better. Other than that seeing Luke just breezing through mint was nice, and I can't wait to see the rest of this challenge
Honestly, mint is great. It has its small bugs (mouse sensitivity slider never working, for example, and occasional multi-monitor set up going wrong), but otherwise setting up is rather easy
Breezing through is a stretch
To be fair he did have some issues that would have given a headache to non-Linux users.
I don't blame Linux as an OS for it. Windows has a multi-billion dollar company behind it to ensure compatibility and bugfixes for pretty much any hardware on the market. OSX has a company that only allows it to run on the two or three variants of hardware that it sells.
I’d love to switch to Linux, but definitely needs more work for average people.
Personally I’m pretty knowledgeable, but I don’t feel like wrestling with my PC over issues that pop up when it’s easily fixable on Windows and even MacOS. The constant “Linux is easy” statements is like a collage student telling a kindergartner that adding is easy
Watching Linus run into these weird different errors reminds me of when I started using Linux back in '01. As someone who daily drives Linux, I'm kinda disappointed the new user experience hasn't improved as much as I had hoped.
Same, i started out with debian sarge (was pure bad luck i picked that not knowing it was meant more for servers) and had a real bad time, then switched to fedora and it took lots of trial and error to get things working. While I know what Linus had isn't the norm the fact that it's still so unintuitive and bad for a non techy person just saddens me. I am curious if WindowsFx is any better tho
I keep disto hopping and have never had these errors....
Me too. It is like Linux developers don't believe that the average user will ever try it. Something like that is easy to fixed with more care for new users. It should had, for example, explanation of what every package that was prompted to removal do. Then you will understand that remove your desktop environment could let you with no graphical interface to run your OS (back to terminal days 60s - 80s). Will let with the only option it could be done, that it was to search for other package, like snap...
I think that some Linux developers doom they own OS by don't believe in the potential of market that they have in hands.
I don't know man... Might sound elitist but these "noobfriendly" distros are just not worth it... Same goes for the new Arch installer... they are doing more bad than good... I feel like the time I needed to clean install Arch, BTW, was well worth it and now I have a system that never really breaks.... Maybe the distrowars should come to an end and the community needs to have a long and good talk about one distro for noobs instead of everyone cooking their own shit up... With Valve we got the momentum it's just so frustrating with all the evangelists
Been using Linux since '07 but I've long stopped attempting to convert other people to Linux. It's just not production-ready for the average user. I'm a developer and Linux is a great development platform, plus I care a lot about privacy and free software. But average Joe wants an easy to use system first, everything else comes second. Even Windows is kind of a shitty OS for average people, but at least you can get help for it because everyone knows it. Still, PC adoption rates are stagnating whereas pretty much every person on the planet has a smart phone nowadays, and I believe the simplicity of the OS is a big factor here.
Linus playing Cave Story brings me so much joy it's not funny. It's an incredibly nostalgic game for me.
The issues you guys had are really bizarre, we do need more user-oriented people legitimately using Linux the way an average person would, so we can improve as a whole, super glad to see Luke back on!
It's actually very typical lmao. Because bizarre problems occur in Linux ALL THE TIME. I'm a long-term linux user for over a decade now and a developer and even I get annoyed sometimes when things just don't seem to work with certain hardware or driver combinations or things randomly brick after a simple update unrelated to the actual problem.
@@iamtheusualguy2611 Exactly. I'm very familiar with linux/unix and their experiences were still very similar to mine. Those who push linux as a user friendly OS are either somehow getting lucky and avoiding these kinds of issues, or are experienced enough to not consider them problems at all. The average user is not going to want to deal with any of this. I hope we can eventually reach the point where linux has mainstream adoption, but we're pretty clearly not there yet.
I've used both Ubuntu and PopOS quite a lot and it's a weirdly common problem for the OS to attempt to uninstall the DE when installing a new program of even just updating sometimes. Such a strange thing, but I've learned never to upgrade or install anything without reading the package changes carefully because of it. I still love using Pop though
Thank you for viewing it this way. Really. A lot of the comments are blaming Linus for being bad at Linux when honestly a piece of software should never behave in such a way.
I would say it's like having a gun that if you brace to your chest, it will stab you, and if you hold the handle while you pull the trigger you get electrocuted. This gun might have a special feature so that it literally defies physics and has no recoil so bracing and grip aren't required, but how would a new user ever know that? They would use it how they would use any gun until they learn the right way to do it.
Bullshit. I've been off and on with linux for over a decade. They had it easy.
Linus nuking his system while it warns him is just funny, but also very telling about the new user experience
To be fair why should anyone expect that installing a common software would want to completely ruin your System?
@@Mobin92 no I totally understand that, but the output asking him to type that silly string is clearly warning him.. If it was me I would back out of it immediately.
@@Mobin92 I mean, if the goal is to scare people away from Linux then it is working as intended
@@malisa71 And thats good news!
The thing is that Linux and its ecosystem do _not_ close out ways to shoot yourself in the, not even foot, stomach, because it doesn't want to take away abilities from the user.
Sometimes your really do need to do such operations for really advanced stuff. So apt let's you do thing like that if you tell it absolutely assure it you want to.
That said, it probably would be a good idea to not enable this unless a flag was set AND a file in /etc/apt/ had a config setting set to true (though one would need an alternate way because read-only /etc mount is a possibility).
Also, the phrase to repeat really should be something like "Yes, I understand this may break my system, but do it anyways"
Yeah. I saw that stuff about removing "pop desktop" and such, and knew that it was going to brick. My bet is the package maintainers left in some dependencies that were intended for ubuntu, etc, and incompatible with pop, so it uninstalled the pop stuff to install the necessary packages.
Definitely not user error, IMO. Even if it warns you that you're going to break something, packages that broken should never make it into the main tree without being tested. Sure, if Linus was running a non-default DE/WM, you could blame it on an odd corner case, but there's no excuse for it to break that badly on a fresh install.
It didn't brick. He just removed his GUI. He still had the console.
it could've been fixed with a KDE plasma install as it booted right into the command line but he didn't know that and distrohopped on the first day.. its alright considering that he has practically no experience...
@@binku09 Not so much time invested yet, so distrohopping is very reasonable in that situation.
I think the problem was just that he did not update everything (or the update failed somehow) before installing anything. I could be wrong.
If he was dropped to the CLI to install steam I'm guessing he added some third party repo. Bet you a coke the problem with the steam install in the first place was not updating before trying to install, I don't use software store (apt-get all the way lol) much but does it update the package list by default before trying to run installs?
My little sister needed a netbook for school so instead of buying a new one i decided to install lubuntu in a 2011 old laptop of mine, kid you not it was a pain to set up, but everytime i went into a error or trouble there was a tutorial on how to fix it, after an entire day of problem fixing the dual boot and grub i felt an indescribable joy when the lubuntu logo appeared and it booted, to be honest it let me learn a lot, i was happy with the result that pc has never seen so much productivity not even when new with windows 7, and even tho it was not so user friendly to start it let me see the true potential of the hardware. And my sister more than happy even saying she is like Hecker the floopa cuz she nows uses the SO of the pros 😊😂
So, I just read the Debian package changelog on my server which had a "news" item for the apt package manager and it reads as follows:
The solver will no longer try to remove Essential or Protected packages,
any dependency problem that would need such a solution will have to be
resolved manually.
The "Yes, do as I say" prompt for removing essential packages has been
replaced by an error message. The appropriate command-line option needs
to be used instead.
Thank you to Linus Tech Tips and System76 for bringing this issue
to our attention.
Now, trying to install Steam with broken dependencies will no longer be able to destroy your whole desktop environment. It also won't install Steam until you fix whatever dependency is broken, but at least you cannot manoeuvre yourself into a more broken install any more.
This is exactly the type of exposure that Linux third party devs need to help improve, well done!
not the hero we deserve but the one we need
I noticed that too lol
a tech channel run by a guy who understands tech so poorly, he forced a package manager to be idiot-proofed even more than it already was.
@@robonator2945 even windows is idiot proof. The Yes, Do as I Say, in Linus eyes, same as UAC prompt on Windows. It's not really taken as seriously.
I like how every time Linus says "GUI" the subtitles say "gooey"
Well that is what he's saying
Meanwhile, in Spanish: _Güi_
LUKE IS BACK AAAAAAH
He was never really goooone =)
It's only been a few months since I watched the WAN show but he's changed.
@@jekanyika Is that a nice way to say he's put on weight? I blame the pandemic.
Oh fudge, Gato Paint is here! XD
Didn't expect to see you here in an LTT Comment section.
@@drew4678 they talked about it on the WAN show, Linus had a reasonable excuse (can't remember what it was tbh) and Luke agreed that didn't count.
no chad would ever dislike someone for not being good at something, that kind of behaviour would immediately strip someone of their chadness
The fact that Pop!_OS just *happened* to be borked when Linus tried it was unfortunate, but also kinda hilarious. Hopefully the other challenges went better than that for him.
Is it fixed now?
From what he's said on WAN show I think his choice of Manjaro has kinda haunted him the rest of the time.
I've tried popos on two computers and each time the whole os was borked within a couple weeks of me using it - as best as I can tell in my case it is some issue with the recovery partition defaults - I moved on to fedora and haven't had any issues since then
@@danieljensen2626 Lol. Yeah I had a few issues with Manjaro myself which were probably easy to solve but I was completely new. I had 0 knowledge of Linux at the time.
Also I was using KDE, which made things much more difficult.
@@geodescent it happened more than a month ago (and from what I've heard was noticed and fixed by devs few hours after ISO with broken Steam package went live)
The fact that this brief window was the moment when Linus was trying Pop OS is indeed hilariously well timed PR clusterfuck for System 76
I love the "mad scientist" picture of Wendell.
My dream video is Wendell and Anthony on a couch, with popcorn, reviewing this. It's gonna be the Linux nerds new favorite sitcom :P
Damn good idea
Oh please! T'would be awesome!!
Reviewing an extended footage version, so they could pick up the real hiccups!
It's so nice to see Luke in front of the camera again on LTT
Did he DYE his HAIR?!?!
" it's possible that i'm responsible " well yes you had 2 pretty straight warnings that it would uninstall your desktop environment, you even had to type to confirm the removal of the packages. it was written right before your eyes, 10 seconds read.
I think the biggest positive force behind upcoming Linux gaming compatability is the Steamdeck. While making your game Linux compatible in the past was a nice feature, the Steamdeck actively incentives developers to do so as part of their standard development process.
I'm loving the steamdeck pushing the envelope with Linux
10 months later and it's looking soooo much better. Once you realize the power of ProtonGE + Steam Launch options, gaming on Linux is better than Windows, full stop. The caveat is that you have to work a little for it to perform that well. If you just install and run, it performs about the same as Windows.
I've got a 10th gen i5 with UHD630 graphics and it can run games with 1080p @50-60fps output that it should NEVER be running. MGS5, Far Cry 3, Dark Souls 2, all at high settings. Wayland is incredible for anyone that doesn't need +60fps. Every frame is perfect, so there's no need for VSync.
Meanwhile Hogwarts Legacy is using "Steam Deck Verified," which essentially means "Linux Verified," as a marketing tool. It's insane how far it's come.
@@proctoscopefilms I pretty much play all of my games on Steamdeck🎲 at this point, so it has definitely worked out.
I'm generally not an early adopter of new hardware, but I have zero regrets for preordering the Steamdeck.
@@infin1ty850 me too! I set up a steambox with that laptop and I can't stop using it, even though I have another, way more powerful computer. I think some of that is the SteamUI user experience. SteamUI and the PlayStation XMB menu are the best console UIs I've seen.
@@proctoscopefilms Steambox? I'm not familiar with that, I'll need to check that out.
Yeah, your OS shouldn't uninstall your desktop environment when trying to install Steam, I agree xD
It's depressing that the pop team let a ridiculous bug like that reach users
Haven't had a issue like this a week ago
@@aidenstokes7403 its not normal and was apparently quickly fixed but it should not have happened in the first place.
Yes, because it totally isn't Linus's fault
or not touch anything when just... updating software
>updating mysql
nice
>updating grub, DE, Xserver, initramfs some shit there and there
why. why are you doing this, if i stop you right now you'll be bricked
>bricked
it's not linux the problem, it's the morons who force shit into it like, bloatware, their own taste in GUI/icon theme updates (forced) and of course, "free"drivers that are fucked up.
as a Linux user for more than 10 years, that error Linus had is totally on the developer side, Linus did what any first time user would do. The part where he follows an online tutorial and it says "sure, type the Yes, do as I say" is a classy rookie mistake
yes I'm an apps developer and the user experience is one of the most important parts of creating any software, you gotta make it easy to use and understand even for the most non techie people (even if it is CLI)
Yes it did say uninstall pop-os window manager.
I may be wrong but I wonder if Linus updated the OS before proceeding to install steam. I suspect a few package replacement as part of the update got mixed with the steam package install and something went wrong during the update (leaving the OS without gnome as it seemed to be among the meta packages to be removed). The OS definitely breaked itself, but I kinda hope it was more a "didn't update after first boot" situation (not that it make it better for a new user)
They already fixed it from pop shop to command line btw
The Steam package being broken is bad on PopOS but the package manager told him very clearly that what he was doing was probably harmful and that he shouldn't continue unless he knew what he was doing. What else can the package manager do in that situation?
10:37 Linux: “WARNING: The following packages will be removed”
Linus: “Yes, do as I say”
Linux: Bricks itself
**Suprised Pikachu face**
It shouldn't be this easy to delete the os, it was an issue and they fixed it.
Even it it should be that easy (it really isn't, it's a terminal command with "Yes, do as I say" as Co formation instead of the typical y/n) it should not happen when installing steam. And Linux nerds wonder why people hate that shite OS.
@@christophegroulx7816 You didnt delete the os. You just removed some packages from gnome. You can just install it again by a command from terminal.
@christophegroulx7816
It isnt an OS deletion tho. He deleted the Desktop. He can still use the linux tty environment, and re download the desktop.
@@Pingwinho
Bug like this happens in computers no matter your OS. That why you should update your system once you install it before installing anything else. I once had a bug with visual studio that prevented me from compiling C code because some system files were not there. C++ worked tho for whatever reason.
I shat myself with laughter when Linus uninstalled his DE
same. 🤣
14:00 You WERE responsible (after all you told him to "do as I say"), but honestly this is totally ridiculous. I'm a longtime linux user myself (and I game on manjaro without any issues yay!), but issues like this is why linux has such a bad rep in general. If you can't even install steam from the store after a clean OS install because it would nuke your desktop environment (which you did manually afterwards, could've seen that coming) on a *commercially maintained* distribution... I don't even know what to say, we need to do way better than that.
Every os will throw warnings at you when installing software, especially when you're just setting things up
I don't know about you but it seems to me like every time someone who is tech savvy tries to daily drive Linux, they encounter bugs that no one has ever seen before lol
maybe linux will just never be for main stream user on a desktop. the same way a dump truck will never be a main stream car to take your kids to school
TL;DR
Ubuntu bad
i'm still completely at a loss as to WHY trying to install Steam would require UNINSTALLING the desktop environment to begin with o.O like, what the actual fuck?