Love the take on this and am impressed with your measurements not being that far off. I thought this video was going to be about efficiencies and diastatic power as we are dealing with plants, and no matter how good you measure, there will always be a bit of a variation, plus or minus. Great job.
In Experimental Brewing podcast ep.187-188 they tested the IBU and it was way off as you got. First they lab tested the hops before brewing and compared it to what was written on the labels, and already there it was significant off. I remember they also interviewed Mr Glenn Tinseth himself, and he told that his formula was ment to be used on hole hop cones and will not work on pellets.
Pretty sure that was one of the articles/podcasts I had in mind when I mentioned the previous research, forgot to mention the difference between pellets and whole cone so thanks for highlighting that 👍🏻🍻
The error could be the alpha acid of the hops themselves. The AA printed on the packet is the average of the crop. Also hops degrade over time and the rate depends on the variety. You don't know how long or in what conditions the hops have been stored.
I’ve recently started adjusting pH throughout the brewing process. I target 5.4 for mash, 5.2 for pre boil, and for post boil/fermenter pH, I go for 4.8-4.9 pH for lagers, and 5.0 pH for ales, and even lower for heavily hopped beers. It has drastically improved my beers. A recent Oktoberfest I made came to 4.15 final pH, and it is by far the best I have made. Typically the final pH of my lagers have been 4.5+, though they were good, the were also kind of dull and lacked that bright maltiness or crispness I get in many commercial lagers. Definitely worth trying.
Hi. There is also inherent error in all your equipment when added will provide an overall large value. This includes electronic methods. So eg. You make two measurements in your hydrometer which will have a double error. The smaller the range value the greater the percentage error. Plus weights volumes etc. any A level chemistry practical component text will show you how to do this. You can also ask what is the error in the analysis you obtained externally because there will be one. You may find a startling overall percentage error which will ultimately put you in a similar ballpark. Also temperature and pressure would need to be measured which would also involve errors. Another point. Calibration does not remove errors. Enjoying your videos.
Great vid as always! I’ve just put an order in for some Flex from The Malt Miller as my latest Czech Lager def lacking a few IBUs BF shows it as having 35. I should have noticed during kettle tasting. 🍻
Us homebrewers chill our wort too quickly! That was the main take home point i got from Drew beachem regarding ibu at the homebrew level. Ive slowed my chilling process down as a result and when i no chill i dont modify the recipe and usually hop in the cube and probably get more accurate results when i do.
That’s an interesting point, definitely a lot more Isomerization taking place on the commercial scale due to the longer time spent at high temperatures, that said there is still lots of evidence that the formulas aren’t particularly accurate for pro brewers either
Blooming heck that was interesting. I take everything with a pinch of salt when I’m brewing as I’m a proper amateur, I feel you need to check everything on three different devices to get a average and I just don’t have time so as you said I have a Homebrew and chill. Another fantastic episode cheers 👍🍻
I agree regarding IBUs…. Lab-measured IBUs don’t really matter to me if all the beers I use for reference publish Tinseth estimates. Consistency is really the important part. What does interest me is if the inaccuracy is caused by a specific part of estimates… for example, do whirlpool or 10 minute additions contribute far fewer IBUs than the estimate? While 60 minute estimates are accurate? Etc.
Good question, I think the whirlpool numbers have been questioned by a lot of people especially with the increased use of the technique for craft beer. In this particular example the whirlpool hops were a pretty insignificant contribution to the IBUs anyway so there must have been a bit of overshoot on the earlier boil additions
Geeked out on that and enjoyed it immensely. Ibu 30% off! Would be interesting to see how it changed over multiple beers across a range of different ibu. So please win a couple more comps and do the research for us
Really interesting video Dickie. Gotta say I’m surprised how close the homebrew measurements were to the lab versions. Would you be able to share links to the hydrometers and refractometer you are using? I’ve thought for a while that mine are giving suspicious readings and would be good to get some new equipment here. Like you I don’t measure PH at the mo and I’m never really bothered about SRM/EBC either. So long as the pale ale doesn’t look like a stout I’m fine! Always thought the IBU’s were out too, but again like you I just brew to the level I think I want to achieve with Brewfather. Great Vid, cheers matey.
Cheers Matt, the refractometer was just an amazon purchase think I paid £20 ish quid so nothing too fancy, both the hydrometers were bought from shops that are now closed down unfortunately and I can't see the exact equivalents anywhere else currently, maltmiller do have a couple of larger scale hydrometers which are similar to the one I use for OG www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/large-hydrometer-1000-1060/?v=79cba1185463
Overall a very good update but it was looking like a good and factual update until just before the 5 minute mark 😲 ☹. Commercial beers have to label their product within ± 5% of their ABV, not ± 5% ABV below 5.5% ABV, quite a big difference, similarly with the 1%, it's 1% of the quoted ABV not 1% ABV. Your beer, accurately measured comes out a shade over 7.5% stronger than the marked ABV 🤨(5.6 X 7.5% = 6.02 ABV). I have looked into buying more expensive hydrometers but they are hideously expensive 😬, if I remember rightly a 1.040 to 1.060 hydrometer was around £90, similarly with a 1.000 to 1.020, and then I would have needed to buy a more accurate thermometer 😱. As I'm not selling my beer I decided that an outlay of nearly £300 just wasn't worth it 🤣. Above all it is only beer that we are going to drink so the ABV is only a guide👍. You didn't mention any temperatures😲 and they are even more key to accuracy🙄. If you look at the small print on all hydrometers they will state at what temperature they are calibrated at 😎. Thermometers also have a line to which they should be inserted to provide a correct reading, digital thermometers do seem to be more accurate these days than they used to be. PH and water treatments I haven't really got into, I just brew beer that suits my water, it's what I like, although I do agree that it can massively affect bitterness 👍. The second half of the vid was less interesting as I don't bother with that sort of shite but I watched it to the end non the less, you've put the effort in to get the info out there, it's only right that I watch it all, maybe some of it will become useful in the future😉. It was good point though about if that's what it tastes like that is what I want 👍. Definitely stay safe and well, SIR, cheers, Schnuz.
Thanks for the comment but you have got nearly all of that wrong, its 0.5 or 1 percentage points not a percentage of a percentage, see link in description from government website. I did mention temperature differential as a potential factor in hydrometer accuracy if you listen back.
@@DudesBrews If that is what you truly believe then I suggest that you don't go into the business of selling your own fermented beverages then. Stay safe and well, SIR, cheers, Schnuz.
Good interesting vid Tricky 👍🏻. I also use Tinsenth for calculating my IBUs. Have you heard/tried the SMPH IBU calculator. A very interesting tool if albeit complicated but apparently based one a guy sending in hundreds of beers to have them analyzed and then developing this tool accordingly. Suppose to give accurate results 🤷♂️. But probably will taste to bitter for our palettes which are as you say, used to what we have tasted over the years 🍺🍺👍🏻 Maybe a good idea for a Hpo Addition podcast to get this guy on?
It was very close, I put it into the brewcon competition last October and it scored 42 and took a bronze medal so I am pretty happy that it was of a comparable standard maybe just not quite as polished!
Super interesting video! I’d be interested in sending a few of my beers to a lab for similar analysis. Do you know what that would have cost? I’m sure it’s more than I’m willing to pay. 🍻
I’m definitely working on my water more and trying to get the ph right but those kegland or kegking ph meters are rubbish really need to spend a couple of hundred bucks to get a more accurate one
Love the take on this and am impressed with your measurements not being that far off. I thought this video was going to be about efficiencies and diastatic power as we are dealing with plants, and no matter how good you measure, there will always be a bit of a variation, plus or minus. Great job.
In Experimental Brewing podcast ep.187-188 they tested the IBU and it was way off as you got. First they lab tested the hops before brewing and compared it to what was written on the labels, and already there it was significant off. I remember they also interviewed Mr Glenn Tinseth himself, and he told that his formula was ment to be used on hole hop cones and will not work on pellets.
Pretty sure that was one of the articles/podcasts I had in mind when I mentioned the previous research, forgot to mention the difference between pellets and whole cone so thanks for highlighting that 👍🏻🍻
The error could be the alpha acid of the hops themselves. The AA printed on the packet is the average of the crop. Also hops degrade over time and the rate depends on the variety. You don't know how long or in what conditions the hops have been stored.
I’ve recently started adjusting pH throughout the brewing process. I target 5.4 for mash, 5.2 for pre boil, and for post boil/fermenter pH, I go for 4.8-4.9 pH for lagers, and 5.0 pH for ales, and even lower for heavily hopped beers. It has drastically improved my beers. A recent Oktoberfest I made came to 4.15 final pH, and it is by far the best I have made. Typically the final pH of my lagers have been 4.5+, though they were good, the were also kind of dull and lacked that bright maltiness or crispness I get in many commercial lagers. Definitely worth trying.
Thanks for that info I am really interested in exploring this area
Hi. There is also inherent error in all your equipment when added will provide an overall large value. This includes electronic methods. So eg. You make two measurements in your hydrometer which will have a double error. The smaller the range value the greater the percentage error. Plus weights volumes etc. any A level chemistry practical component text will show you how to do this. You can also ask what is the error in the analysis you obtained externally because there will be one. You may find a startling overall percentage error which will ultimately put you in a similar ballpark. Also temperature and pressure would need to be measured which would also involve errors. Another point. Calibration does not remove errors. Enjoying your videos.
I'm with you, don't change any formulas ! Just be consistent with your processes and follow your senses regarding taste, aroma and appearance.🍻🍻
💯🍻
Great content. Im quite surprised by the IBU variance, but agree with your conclusion on it!
IBUs are a fickle beast!
Great vid as always! I’ve just put an order in for some Flex from The Malt Miller as my latest Czech Lager def lacking a few IBUs BF shows it as having 35. I should have noticed during kettle tasting. 🍻
yeah it would be interesting to see if flex delivers more accurate results for IBUs with their suggested usage rate rather than the calculations...
I knew the ibu calculator in BF was way off the mark, great video buddy, really insightful stuff, the ph and ibu numbers in particular
Cheers mate always appreciate the feedback 🍻👍🏻
Us homebrewers chill our wort too quickly! That was the main take home point i got from Drew beachem regarding ibu at the homebrew level. Ive slowed my chilling process down as a result and when i no chill i dont modify the recipe and usually hop in the cube and probably get more accurate results when i do.
That’s an interesting point, definitely a lot more Isomerization taking place on the commercial scale due to the longer time spent at high temperatures, that said there is still lots of evidence that the formulas aren’t particularly accurate for pro brewers either
Interesting stuff, especially the ibu count - it's one of those things where your perception matters more than the lab numbers, imo. Great video!
Thanks 🍻
Brilliant Video Tricky; WHEN I brew next, I will absolutely take pH throughout and post ferment. Excellent content mate.
Cheers stewie!
Blooming heck that was interesting. I take everything with a pinch of salt when I’m brewing as I’m a proper amateur, I feel you need to check everything on three different devices to get a average and I just don’t have time so as you said I have a Homebrew and chill. Another fantastic episode cheers 👍🍻
At work we tested the bitterness utilisation for SOB and whirlpool. Unless you know your uti it is just a rough guess
I agree regarding IBUs…. Lab-measured IBUs don’t really matter to me if all the beers I use for reference publish Tinseth estimates. Consistency is really the important part.
What does interest me is if the inaccuracy is caused by a specific part of estimates… for example, do whirlpool or 10 minute additions contribute far fewer IBUs than the estimate? While 60 minute estimates are accurate? Etc.
Good question, I think the whirlpool numbers have been questioned by a lot of people especially with the increased use of the technique for craft beer. In this particular example the whirlpool hops were a pretty insignificant contribution to the IBUs anyway so there must have been a bit of overshoot on the earlier boil additions
Geeked out on that and enjoyed it immensely. Ibu 30% off! Would be interesting to see how it changed over multiple beers across a range of different ibu. So please win a couple more comps and do the research for us
Hahaha will do my best, not got the funds to cover it myself tbh!
Really enjoyed this video, so insightful to see how the calcs compare to the real thing.
Good tip on the higher pH for maturation 🍻
It is an interesting factor that is worth exploring I reckon 🍻
Thoroughly enjoyed this vlog, food for thought! Great episode Rich, keep up the good work 👏 👌🍺
Very interesting indeed! Thank you for sharing!🍻
That's really interesting. Thank you so much for this content! really interesting
Glad you enjoyed it!
A very interesting video, thank you.
Really interesting video Dickie. Gotta say I’m surprised how close the homebrew measurements were to the lab versions.
Would you be able to share links to the hydrometers and refractometer you are using? I’ve thought for a while that mine are giving suspicious readings and would be good to get some new equipment here.
Like you I don’t measure PH at the mo and I’m never really bothered about SRM/EBC either. So long as the pale ale doesn’t look like a stout I’m fine!
Always thought the IBU’s were out too, but again like you I just brew to the level I think I want to achieve with Brewfather.
Great Vid, cheers matey.
Cheers Matt, the refractometer was just an amazon purchase think I paid £20 ish quid so nothing too fancy, both the hydrometers were bought from shops that are now closed down unfortunately and I can't see the exact equivalents anywhere else currently, maltmiller do have a couple of larger scale hydrometers which are similar to the one I use for OG
www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/large-hydrometer-1000-1060/?v=79cba1185463
Thanks for sharing ✌️
Overall a very good update but it was looking like a good and factual update until just before the 5 minute mark 😲 ☹. Commercial beers have to label their product within ± 5% of their ABV, not ± 5% ABV below 5.5% ABV, quite a big difference, similarly with the 1%, it's 1% of the quoted ABV not 1% ABV. Your beer, accurately measured comes out a shade over 7.5% stronger than the marked ABV 🤨(5.6 X 7.5% = 6.02 ABV). I have looked into buying more expensive hydrometers but they are hideously expensive 😬, if I remember rightly a 1.040 to 1.060 hydrometer was around £90, similarly with a 1.000 to 1.020, and then I would have needed to buy a more accurate thermometer 😱. As I'm not selling my beer I decided that an outlay of nearly £300 just wasn't worth it 🤣. Above all it is only beer that we are going to drink so the ABV is only a guide👍. You didn't mention any temperatures😲 and they are even more key to accuracy🙄. If you look at the small print on all hydrometers they will state at what temperature they are calibrated at 😎. Thermometers also have a line to which they should be inserted to provide a correct reading, digital thermometers do seem to be more accurate these days than they used to be. PH and water treatments I haven't really got into, I just brew beer that suits my water, it's what I like, although I do agree that it can massively affect bitterness 👍. The second half of the vid was less interesting as I don't bother with that sort of shite but I watched it to the end non the less, you've put the effort in to get the info out there, it's only right that I watch it all, maybe some of it will become useful in the future😉. It was good point though about if that's what it tastes like that is what I want 👍. Definitely stay safe and well, SIR, cheers, Schnuz.
Thanks for the comment but you have got nearly all of that wrong, its 0.5 or 1 percentage points not a percentage of a percentage, see link in description from government website. I did mention temperature differential as a potential factor in hydrometer accuracy if you listen back.
@@DudesBrews If that is what you truly believe then I suggest that you don't go into the business of selling your own fermented beverages then. Stay safe and well, SIR, cheers, Schnuz.
@@Schnuz not what I believe its what is stated in the source I have provided, wheres the source for your info?
Good interesting vid Tricky 👍🏻. I also use Tinsenth for calculating my IBUs. Have you heard/tried the SMPH IBU calculator. A very interesting tool if albeit complicated but apparently based one a guy sending in hundreds of beers to have them analyzed and then developing this tool accordingly. Suppose to give accurate results 🤷♂️. But probably will taste to bitter for our palettes which are as you say, used to what we have tasted over the years 🍺🍺👍🏻 Maybe a good idea for a Hpo Addition podcast to get this guy on?
Cheers Steve I wasn’t aware of that, will have a look into that
Brilliant. Very holistic way of looking at it all. Was the rebrew just as the first in taste and your satisfaction?
It was very close, I put it into the brewcon competition last October and it scored 42 and took a bronze medal so I am pretty happy that it was of a comparable standard maybe just not quite as polished!
Super interesting video!
I’d be interested in sending a few of my beers to a lab for similar analysis. Do you know what that would have cost? I’m sure it’s more than I’m willing to pay. 🍻
I don’t know the prices tbh but Im pretty sure it would be a bit prohibitive for a homebrewer
I’m definitely working on my water more and trying to get the ph right but those kegland or kegking ph meters are rubbish really need to spend a couple of hundred bucks to get a more accurate one
I have got on ok with the kegland pH meter what issues did you have with it?
I’d guess +/- 35% before watching the video
A very good guess with respect to the IBUs!