Hey Wheelies! Just a reminder that I love the Wheel of Time and I 100% recommend that any and all read the series. Also, yes. Houston is a swamp. And that’s a sweet little mosquito kiss on my head. Thanks for asking!
Series Spoiler: Not sure if Mike caught this in Mat’s rape plot, but Nynaeve was the ONLY person that didn’t laugh at Mat’s sexual assault. She confronted Tylin about it, but it only worked for maybe 1 day and Tylin was back at it.
For anyone considering starting WoT, I recently finished the books. No spoilers. I was lost for a bit, didn’t know what to do with no more books in the series. Eventually I realised that this series is so magnificent the only solution is to begin again. Why start a new series when I can explore further what is potentially the greatest depth of world building outside of our own world? You won’t regret it if you do start, is my point, it is worth every second and by the end you’ll only wonder why you hadn’t read it sooner
I finished myself...and I'll say..the amount on unnecessary descriptions of rooms and especially outfits is ridiculous . As soon as Brandon took it up things changed completely to the better.
It’s funny when you mention how there are characters everyone from teen to senior would love. I read this as an older teen when the EoTW first came out and have read them all as they got released. I am on a full reread now and it is hilarious how I have changed which character is my fav. As a teen I liked Rand and thought Tam was bossy but now I am like “boy that Tam really is a good guy and what a punk Rand was.”
@@mikesbookreviews As a teen, I knew Tam had it right. However Rands concerns are not wrong in my opinion. And his mistakes under the pressure of the circumstance are also understandable. Even if the actual answers to these concerns are not all that complicated in the end. And his mistakes are ones that he should’ve known not to do, even if what to do wasn’t obvious to him them. His treatment of the Aiel. His treatment of the Seanchan. His squeamishness is also obnoxious. His haphazard behavior, and inability to understand obvious things when the plot demands it. All issues. Still doesn’t make his arc any less powerful and compelling.
when you said "i doubt ill be able to finish everything before i move on to the next life" .. i felt sad for us all with such a small life for soo many good books
Aaaaaaaannnnnndd, this is why I follow Mike. Definitely one of your best videos. You hit the mark on describing everything good or bad in this wonderful epic tale. I loved the series as well and yet have been told that I do not if I describe some of the things you touched upon. And I think it's a shame you had to provide so many legal disclaimers. People, it's his opinion. How many times does he have to say it? You know what big people can do? Newsflash, come close because I have to say it softly: they can either agree or disagree with it. Shocking, I know. I don't agree with everything Mike says, and that's ok. We do agree a lot, though, I'll say that. I'm a Wheelie, too and I will always love it. Obviously, my name implies there is another series I adore more but it doesn't mean the Wheel isn't one of my favorite series, nor diminish my love for it, or that I cannot acknowledge the brilliant job Mike has done here.
this week marks 1 year since i started Wheel of Time, and dragged my sister along for the ride. it was so great to have your videos to look forward to, before and after each book. thanks for all the great content Mike!
WOT was my first pandemic binge series (wow, it's been a long year...) and I fully agree with this. The only thing I would add is another "Good" you may not know because of reading physically: the audiobooks are great. Solid way to get through the "slog" (which I agree, just needed a firmer edit and possible merge, definitely not unreadable).
Late to finding this video, but just gotta agree with it. I will say flat out that the Wheel of Time is my alltime favorite series ever written, thanks to how much depth and detail and how expansive the world is. But good lord its got some issues, too.
Thanks for this. I recently put the series in my TBR and was considering starting it but after this video I've decided to put the series on hold indefinitely. There's just so many fantasy series I wanna read and the bad you talked about was to much for me. I may get to it eventually but not for a while.
I appreciate your take on the series. Like every series, there are high points and low points, but overall the Wheel of Time is definitely worth your time as a reader. It's a world you can get lost in and keep coming back to, always picking up something new that you missed the first time through.
I think an important part of WoT for people, is when in their reading lives they start this series. I read this earlier in my Fantasy readings, and it blew me away. I think if you have been in this genre a long time and have experienced a lot of authors this may not be as much of a home run as some people say. While it is still great, I think finding this world before doing a deep dive into the fantasy genre can be a big factor in how much it resonates with the reader. Just my opinion though.
Thank you for summarizing my biggest issues with this series. I started it in the early 90s and by the end it was a pure hate read (Not saying it was a bad series just that I read the final books out of spite to say I finished it). There is a lot I loved about the series but by and large there was even more I could do with out. I like you felt a pared down and tighter 7-9 book like it was originally intended would have been fantastic. I may give it a re-read in the future, but maybe need another year before I do that (plus those hard covers are heavy to lug around)
I'm approaching the slog (about to start book 6 in a week or so) and I feel like I won't be so bad for me. I'm new to fantasy, actually new to reading but I'm coming from the anime/manga community where we deal with a lot of slogs so I'm pretty tolerant to stuff like that.
The way I did rereads as the last few books cane out, Crossroads ended up being one of my most read books. It grew on me actually, to me Path of Daggers is the “slog” but I never really thought it was too bad.
I really loved your honest and constructive criticism. I’m one who started the series in the 90’s and for me there was never any mud to drudge through. I can remember wanting some books to be longer while acknowledging some parts were terribly slow, necessary info dumps that were boring and dialogue that went on forever. It was like taking this ride that I knew would pay off huge at the end. I wasn’t disappointed. I forgave Jordan much, like I had to forgive Tolkien and my parents. Criticism after all is only effective if the person is still alive and can enact change. We all change. Jordan went to war. He must have thought it was horrible. I can see it influenced his life. Maybe the thought of some incredibly strong women in his life, kept him alive during the war. I heard stuff like that happens. I love your reviews man. Your insight is worth hearing every time.
I think all your thoughts make sense! I finally started my first "reread" last year, but I listened to all the books on faster speed. I stopped after book 10 because I want to actually read books 11-14, but it hasn't happened yet..😅 So many other books to read! Actually, I'm doing my first reread of Lord of the Rings right now, and enjoying it SO much more than I did reading each book for the first time right after watching each movie.
Excellent assessment, Mike! I especially appreciate your thoughts on the gender aspects of the series, both positive and negative. While I love WoT too, I also agree that it would have been better if it had been edited down to ten or fewer books. It’s an awesome achievement, and I’m glad I can say I’ve read and enjoyed it.
Hard to counter widely read Booktuber assessments! However, based on straight dive-in beginnings, the wonderful build up and the lovely PROSE and descriptiveness and characters which I so enjoy, I find it actually so exciting that there are THAT many books in the series to read! Whereas the beginning of even Fellowship with its seemingly endless beginnings (Intro, forward, preface, hobbit leaf history, AND chapter one Old Gaffer...) is a “challenge” in order to get to the more spooky aspects of the tale. Whereas notorious Malazan is front-heavy un-relatable yet-Union rated cast listing upfront. While Eye of the World unveils steadily to the reader a widening scope after that epic preface!
About to start A Crown of Swords. I'm kinda glad I know the slog is coming, but it's worth getting past, because I feel some would abandon the series. But I understand how that could scare some people away, like "oh it's 14 books long but these 3-4 can almost be skipped? Not worth it."
One female protagonist that grated your nerves in the first few books, I really like her. I'm only thru 1-5 so far, but I'm guessing you're talking about Nynaeve. She is almost a carbon copy of my best friend's sister, lol! Attitude and all, but with a motherly persona. I enjoy her chapters
Excellent video! I'm halfway through MOL and think your thoughts were pretty much spot on. Very much agree! I have two additional issues that I need to get of my chest. Wheelies have been pretty kind to me so far, and hopefully they won't spank me for what I'm about to say. Also please note. I don't hate the books. It's not an all time favorite, but I still enjoyed the ride (even thought the slog wasn't as sloggy as I'd expected). BTW, my favorite character hands down, from book 1 and throughout the series, without a doubt: Nynaeve. That said: SPOILERS BELOW!!! Once again just to make sure: SPOILERS TO COME! 1) Rands madness is like Indiana Jones in the Raiders of the Lost Ark. Remove this element and it has no impact on the plot. Also, his madness has no consequences for him personally. For example, when he kills off a bunch of his own troops with Callandor, wouldn't have been more interesting if the subsequent assassination attempt were due to his own men not being ok with Rand killing a bunch of their comrades? Instead it's just another darkfriend. Or wouldn't it have been more interesting for the narrative if he had attacked Min in a fit of madness rather than being controlled by the a'dam? If he'd acted mad and made some of his friends turn their back on him? Or if he, due to madness, insisted on some really stupid strategic decision which made some of his allies start a mutiny? Now it's like, he hear voices but is still able to play and constantly win in a 3D chess game involving all the plots and intrigues. 2) Characters. Not all. But quite a few are somewhat lacking. Can someone give me 3-5 adjectives that describes Egwene before she becomes Amyrlin? Can anyone give me examples of personality traits that separates Egwene from e.g. Min? Sorry, these things have been bugging me for 6 months now. Needed to get that off my chest.
I think the thing I like most about you is your willingness to show some conviction when sharing your viewpoints, without then turning around and feeling as though you need to explain away the point as if it was somehow unjustified. I have a hard time with some booktubers who think all opinions need to be filtered through some lens in order for it to be acceptable or valid. #LFLR
His descriptions make the re-reads very much worth it. Some characters you will recognize as a certain character or from a certain culture just by the description, even though the POV character has no idea about it, you can know if someone is a Kandori, Saldean or Tyrean culture. And to be fair, in regards to the dislikable females, there were equally dislikable men, every one of the ta'veren had their annoying periods, for one it never really ended. Two out of three of the worst come out of one storyline (aram and perrin) and threequarters of their stories could be "scalped"
I made it half way through. Then I started again and stopped in the middle of book 3. I legit want to read them but I REEEEEEALLY need to be in the right mindset and space them out.
I think the explanation for The Slog is Robert Jordan fell out of love with his main characters. Tor wanted a consistent release schedule. And rather than giving them the #1 sign and finding anything to do but write (like Martin), Jordan wrote plotlines that interested him, but went essentially nowhere in progressing the Main Story.
Do you have any evidence that this was the case? An interview with Jordan or his wife, maybe? I'm not asking to be confrontational, but because I've never heard that and if it's true, would really change the way I read the series.
My feeling is that it's more that he wanted the big event at the end of book 9 to happen at a certain point in each character's arc, which meant that all the characters had to wait for the slowest to get into position.
Seems more like he had a huge world but didn't spend enough time in certain countries, like Amadicia, Ghealdan, Arad Doman, and so created plotlines and side quests that really didn't contribute to the main goal in those countries for some characters (Perrin and the Shaido), and plotlines to keep other characters busy until the ending (Elayne and the Caemlyn successor battles). I'll never be convinced Perrin and Elayne couldn't have been left out for a book and have 8-10 combined into one book.
As someone reading the series for the first time thanks for all of the wheel of time content for me to go to as I finish the books. (Especially your reviews) Currently starting The Shadow Rising and I’m excited to see how it goes.
19:35 Thank you. I couldn't believe the characters reactions to it. I can't believe Jordan wrote that in. Totally with you I can't get on board with that part. 23:23 Agreed. The villains were kind of sub par at times compared to everything else. Personally the Dark One did not seem like a huge looming threat to me. Yes there were bubbles of evil and such but I didn't feel like he had much presence in most of the books. As well as the first three books endings did not inspire fear about the Dark One. Not to mention prophecy that the good guys win. Nice review Mike!
These books are great, they are full of wonder, fun, adventure, awesome magic systems, plus has some characters that actually grow and change either for the better or for the worst.
The female characters socially climb, they never really grow. I liked three of them, Siuan, Min, and sometimes late Moraine. It made the series almost unreadable, for me.
Other than the truly hardcore wheelies I think it's easy to admit the series' flaws. How much you like the series is partly based on how much those things bother you and how much the great moments outweigh them.
This exactly. I don't understand either extreme - for me it falls right in the middle. The series clearly has a couple of big(ish) flaws, and because of that if people choose not to read it or stop reading it, I get it! But I think as long as you know those flaws going in, everything else about the series is SO GOOD.
I think there are real flaws, and simply peoples opinions/prejudices. Someone will say its terrible because chosen one trope is so overdone and predictable. No, thats not a flaw. A flaw is when there is an inarguable error in a story, or a literary convention that is absolutely necessary that is not done. Everything Mike criticizes are easily debated away and if he would acknowledge that they are just his "feelings" and not actual flaws. The entire subreddit is simply full of people saying I didn't like x, and 50 people essentially explaining how flawed that perspective is.
I listened to the whole series on audiobook during my commutes and road trips for work. I think I love it more for the two readers, Kate Reading and Michael Kramer, than for the books themselves.
They're amazing. I have my opinions regarding WoT and he's right to bring up Sanderson's prolific rise since. No true fan should be unwilling to recognize the problematic story structures within the middle of this series (having read them multiple times, both within the og timeframe and later with audiobooks). There's nothing wrong with this level worldbuilding. Part of these 'tropes,' even his inspiration to others regarding the action scenes in different series now, have shaped supporters today. There is much to be said about inspiring the next gen of authors... I've never stopped warning friends that they shouldn't start it if they haven't read enough long series. I'd recommend Mistborn far sooner. 😂 You're right that I warn of the slog. However, as a teacher, I find it easier to build people to this level of worldbuilding, character number, etc. 😅 Not everyone reads as much. I also earn people about GoT, Feast of Crows.🤷
"A character I couldn't stand; by the end of the series, one of my favorites." I get the strong impression (with context around this statement), this is about Nyneave. If so, I was exactly the same way. But I started reading these books in 2000, so there were LONG gaps of time between releases, so I hated her for a long time, lol.
I didn't think much about the ta'veren explanations while reading, so to me they were obviously within the range of acceptable. The bubbles of evil however, I found to be 100% forced plot devices to build up tension without explanation and I utterly hated it every time they appeared. No matter if living playing cards, sandstorms or Hinderstap; I would gladly enjoy it if the tv show would, if not remove all of them, then in the least provide more explanations for the happenings. Read through WOT "together with you" through the first half of 2020 and was looking forward to your reviews after every book. Absolutely love that you are as critical as you are when analyzing them, and am looking forward to further videos. Keep it up!
Great breakdown. I know a lot of fandoms who get their nose out of joint if you bring up any dislikes or weaknesses. I’ve never subscribed to that. It doesn’t help your cause of getting new fans if you can’t look at it honestly. The sheer size of this story makes it a statistical impossibility that you are going to love every part of it. Though, might be easier for me to say that here, since you line up with my likes and dislikes of WoT approx 90% of the time! (Had to take a few deep breaths when you didn’t name Rand as your #1 OR #2 character!😜). The slog is different for each person, so I agree, stop TELLING people who are trying to decide about whether to read this or not about it! For some it’s books 5-8, for others it might be 7-10. Or, if you’re like me, MOST of the books had a slog-ish part, but each book had things I loved in it as well (except The Dragon Reborn). But my other point about this, Mike, is that there’s no rule that says when you re-read the series, you have to read the ENTIRE thing. Skip the parts you don’t like! You already know the story, it’s not necessary to put yourself through the parts you don’t enjoy again. I think that’s why I keep the series in such high esteem. I forget how much of it is uninteresting to me…because I no longer read those parts! 😂
The slog is real. Or I should say i was worse back when we fans were waiting a year or more per book. You wait a year to read a book and it hardly progresses the plot. Ugh. But I re-read the series last year and the slog isn't as big a deal now since the books are all out and you just move through them Plus, they aren't bad. There is plenty of fantasy out there far worse. They're just not up to Jordan's best work.
I only read the first 3 but it did kind of spoil future reads because I didn't feel like I could see the characters or the environment in such rich detail like Jordan was able to paint.
I discovered your channel a few months ago and you convinced me to read WOT. I don’t regret it at all! Sure it has parts I don’t really care for but what story doesn’t.
I’m ready for a re-read, I haven’t read through the end of this series and haven’t read them since the late 90s early 2000s. I’m starting to purchase them now to start it. I guess this series for some reason that I was a huge fan of in my 20s and loved was forgotten. My ex husband had gotten me into them and the books went with him when we split up. I never replaced them. I really regret that, now that they are making a show I really want to finally finish this series. I just created my account in here, and have watched a couple of your videos. I’m really enjoying them, I find that I agree a lot with your opinions. Love your library, thought I had a big one. Yours puts mine to shame.
I noticed some slow parts during the books, and it is less on the re-reads, however, I never knew of the slog until I got into the online community, after 4-5 readings of the books. The same with the hatred of certain characters. Many of which I disgreed with. Point being - Read them yourselves and make up your own minds. We all have our own opinions, and that's why there are booktube videos that we love! Mike, absolutely great video. I agree, and disagree and love your WoT videos.
Tbh I was grateful to know about the slog beforehand because I was prepared and it didn't bother me that much because of this preparedness. Also agree with most points, I have a hard time with a lot of the female characters (Egwene and Siuane get better and the actions and attitudes of some still important but not main female charcters were at least understandable). Oh yeah I also agree with the villains being mostly jokes. I really don't like the trope of the evil ones all being absolute terrified of the higher ups, backstabbing their equals and using the people under them like toys. I mean this is the most toxic way to run an organization and make sure that no one joins you. I mean you get promised eternal life but you have to survive until then and everyone is out there to get you (even your "allies" because they want to rule a big chunk of land when the Dark One wins). The Forsaken are supposedly those terrible and strong bad sorcerers but they only play their games and want to be the Dark One's favorite lap dog and come off as rather pathetic, petty or just dumb because they can't trust each other and kinda fight each other as much or even more so than our farmboy heroes. And do I have to mention Elaida? She's so incompetent and ignorant about things she doesn't want to know about she's Nynaeve but worse and without the somewhat redeeming quality to want to help and heal people (which is up to now the only good thing I can say about Nynaeve because ahe is so infuriating and insufferable Idk why Lan is doing this to himself)
Hey Mike. Great video. I agree on many things. You had a lot of good points. For myself, the biggest flaw in the series is chasing Seanchans from one book to another. Rand should have destroyed them by the end of the 9th book at the latest. There would have been one big and useless plot pattern left out.
Read the books over the last 3 months and I loved your reviews after I finished each book. I agree with you completely would have been great if it was 7/8 but it's just too long. Keep up the good work mate!
I'm in the first half of the sixth book and the criticism I agree with the most is about the villains. I can't tell most of the forsaken from each other and fades have gone from the really scary black riders to basically on the same level as trollocs but with twice the hit points. At the end of the day those things don't really bother me because I haven't read many series with great villains and the story and the characters are really good and interresting so I'm approaching the slog with an optimistic attitude.
Great video Mike! I’m currently doing a reread of the series. I’m about 1/2 way through The Great Hunt and yes RJ totally flips the script when it comes to traditional fantasy. I’m picking up on so many things that I missed the first time around. Books 1-6 really are like 2 separate trilogies, they are that good. I’m excited to get to books 7-14 mainly because I blew through all of those books on audible and I don’t remember much of what happens. So I’m definitely going to take my time with those.
Hay Mike one of your Wheelies here, just noticed in this video about RJ's influences, I noticed that Aes Sidhe are irish words to describe the Fairy Folk of Ireland who are akin to Tolkiens elves. So when I read WOT I assumed some influences came from the old Fairy myths....We all see different pieces of the mosaic 🤠
The upcoming release of the show made me want to start this series, but I needed this video to actually pick up the book and start reading, I'm only 4 chapters into the Eye of the World and very interested so far!
I'm on The Shadow Rising and I'll admit that the premise of being Ta'veren is kind of bugging me a little. It feels like it somewhat drains their agency in their choices. I do like how they don't want their destiny but are ending up fulfilling it anyway but it bugs me that they're compelled to fulfill it, honestly. "Things happen because the in-universe plot wills it" kind of always has bothered me. He's pulling it off but it kind of doesn't completely sit right.
That's one of my main issues with these books! Rand is constantly dragged along and is only a hero when he absolutely has to be. None of the characters really make their own decisions. Perrin and Mat only feel the need to help Rand not because he's their friend but because the Pattern is pulling at them and they have no choice but to help him. It somehow makes the characters far less compelling to me. They have very little agency.
I'm on my first reread (there will be many) and have been waiting for "The Slog". I'm about half way through Crossroads of Twilight (book 10) and didn't even realise I was there. I noticed it the first time reading, the pace definitely slows a bit, but there is such great character building and development in that stretch that the reread makes it a pleasure. The action sequences are great and I totally agree about just wanting MORE STORY but I am grateful for these slower books as it allows Jordan to shine.
This series was my intro to the fantasy genre back in the late 90s, so it's near and dear to me. That being said, I think you have valid points. I don't have the same feelings for all of them, but we are good. I respect that.
Really good video, and thanks for non-spoilers as only on Book 3! For me, it’s only natural that a book series this long will have highs and lows. It’s just a shame that people jump on things they don’t agree with it and feel compelled to explain why you are wrong.
I think WoT is amazing with so much good going on and even most its flaws becomes dear to us after a while. One thing I love is the characters, so many good main & side character. One thing I struggle with is the recap in the begining of each book. So much of the first chapters are catch ups from last books and explanations about how the world works. It was probably great when the books were being published, but now they feel a bit unnecessay when picking up the next one shortly after finishing the previous one Nevertheless, great books, good to get a WoT video from you again Mike
Hey Mike, I've been one of your wheelies from the beginning and I can't believe it's been 2 years! You and I have had a few interactions in the comments, I feel we are very like minded with many things and our passion for dune runs strong (nice shirt). Congrats on your success you are by far my favorite youtuber for this type of presentation about books you are reading, your positivity and honesty is refreshing. Now I just need you to read berserk and the circle will be complete haha. Much love my man here's to 2 more years and beyond 🍻
Back when I first started reading this series in the early aughts, I was kind of enjoying it. I didn't really care for the first couple of books too much but it seemed that the fantasy pickings at my local bookstore were slimmer back then. So, I was reading them and they were alright. Then I got to the Battle of Dumai Wells. And Holy COW. I was then hooked. That scene and the lead up to it is still one of the best sequences I have ever read in a fantasy novel. I think I actually had to stand up and cheer.
Love some WoT talk. This channel helped me get into it last year🙌 Read all 15 books and have reread the first 3 this year (on top of all the other books on my list lol). Glad I got my love for reading back and dove into it all
Maybe they could turn the Mat-Tylin relationship consensual, or even omit completely. But I think it might be better if they include it while hammering in "THIS IS NOT OK" all the way through.
I'll be picking up Wheel of Time after I complete John Gwynne's initial 'Faithful and Fallen' series. I cannot wait to read this, Jordan seemed like a truly innovative writer.
You're in for a treat with both series. I do recommend binge reading Faifthful and the Fallen because after half of the first book it's constant action and questing and I loved it.
Wheel of Time is by far the best fantasy epic I've read, it eclipses Tolkien in many aspects. Upon my 6th reread I was just as captivated (if not more) than the first time, the subtle foreshadowing is crazy and the characters feel like you've known them your entire life. I hope you enjoy it!
I feel like 7-8 books would have been too few as I think the series length while sometimes a weakness is also a strength because of the amount of character development it allows to happen, particularly with Rand. I think 10 books would have been perfect
Great video, Mike. I'm fairly new to fantasy so trying to bash out a few of the smaller series (bar Malazan) but this definitely encourages me to get to WoT at some point. Appreciate the spoiler free content.
The r8pe scene sounds like Jordan was putting a real life situation in the books. For a long time many didn't believe (or sociatal belief) it could happen to men. Its only the last decade or so that it's become a "yes it happens to everyone" thought process.
Thanks Mike, I’ll jump back in and start book 6 again. The female characters complaining on every page is actually my biggest issue I think. That’s so hard to read, I can handle torturing characters and misery but complaining about everyone and every thing is definitely the biggest detractor. I think Mike just sold book 7 and on in a way no one else has been able to do for me. If Jordan can turn these female characters around to become some of my favourites that’s it, I’m gonna dive back in. Thanks Mike
One thing I am having trouble with...eh I can’t really fully differentiate between the many nations, they blend in sometimes, and i take responsibility that I’d have to pay more attention.
kudos for taking responsibility, most people just blame the author, and then box themselves into a corner trying to defend their opinion against 50 people with the textual references. Its difficult to keep track when you don't necessarily have a lot of experience and knowledge, I find google to be pretty great if some words are not super familiar talking about a topic i'm not super familiar with. Bandar Ebon that has wooden sidewalks which is not particularly common so you can google that, find images, compare with other descriptions and then come to a mental picture of something like the old west, or old japan style cities. But more importantly is Domani woman wear fabric that is nearly transparent and clingy and are the primary merchants while the men are the artisans and laborers. It might be hard to remember that Bandar Ebon is the capital of Arad Doman, but coppery skin and super sexy is kinda the primary thing to know to get 95% of the cultural identification in the books. Mostly it IS simply paying attention, but its hard to break the story to google or take time to sit and think about the descriptions, but you can always read through, get to a good stopping point and then go back.
Just reading the Dragon Reborn.. already irriatated of Nynaeve's braid tugging.. but i dont care much coz i'm already committed to finish it by the end of this year. Loving it till this point ❤️
I remember feeling this way when I read the first few books, having recently finished them I’d say Nynaeves one of my favourite characters. Your opinion on her may change!
Yes, I have heard that a lot about Mat and Nynaeve's character later in the series. And it's not that I dont like her much (at this point i'll admit i dont care much about the ladies except Moiraine) but it's just that I am irritated of her continous braid tugging all the time.. 😄😄
@@umangu2466 yeh I think I found the female characters kind of miss for the post part in the first few books on first read, it’s only now I’ve seen where they go and what they become that I’ve began to develop a deeper understanding of why they act as they do! Hope you enjoy the rest of the series brother
I just ordered the entire series. All 15 books. I'm beyond excited. The Amazon show, as well as being a Brandon Sanderson fan, got me really interested in checking it out. Awesome video. Subbed!🔥🔥🔥
I also want to reread the series but i also want to read new stuff just like you said. I might listen to the first two or three books before the tv show premieres.
re: The Rape Scene - I hate that scene as well, but I also felt that it was written that way on purpose? Like Jordan himself didn't feel that way personally, but women in this world would?
He stated somewhere in an interview where Women are usually the ones that get sexually assaulted, which is something not to ignore, but hearing a man telling he was sexually assaulted will get him a batten eye and suspicious because rape amongst men wasn't something that was a common issue back then, but it was, which resulted in the whole men getting assaulted by women in the books to play exactly. Showing that men can be vunarable in situations.
I agree, I don't think Jordan was mocking men that were raped but He showed the flaws of many women even in modern times, Men get blown off or laughed at if they've been abused.
Overall I think the series should be read. Especially for people who want to understand the foundations of modern fantasy. It carries a LOT of nostalgia for a huge number of people as well. It has more good than bad when all is said and done. But the bad can be really bad at times...Which is disappointing for me because I think it had the promise to be THE fantasy series that sits without argument as the king of the genre. I don't even blame him for most of the issues it has though. He should have had an editor willing to take the hard stances. For me the repetition of EVERYTHING was the thing that killed it for me. Especially on a re-read. The descriptions, tics, and cultural stereotypes etc. everyone talks about but I almost never see anyone talk about how he uses the same plot device over.. and over... and over. How many times can the capture/kidnap/rescue cycle be repeated? Well Jordan was damned determined to find out. This is where that editor should have been adamant about stepping in. "You know Rob, this is the nth time you've had character XYZ in this position. Since you've had characters ABC, GHI, TUV, and LMNOP all also be captured multiple times don't you think we should find a new device to drive a plot for this book?" I noticed it the first time I read the series but the second time I made my journey through this series it just drove it home for me that while I enjoyed most of the story as a new reader now that I'm close to 1000 books into my reading experience I don't need to spend any additional time in Rand Land. Even with the flaws though I think most people who are avid readers should take the plunge.
I am on my first reading of WoT, because of Mike’s Book Reviews in fact, and about halfway though Eye of The World. Am well entertained, but agree with the “very tropy” comment. Also Brandon Sanderson’s writing advice about feeling free to borrow structure from other texts you like comes to mind as, structurally, book one so far feels almost like a blow for blow rehash of Fellowship of The Ring’s run to Rivendell, (if you have to copy, might as well copy the best of the bunch😄) and I’m still waiting for it to deviate. Did anyone else feel this way?
The Wheel of Time is a Masterpiece...except for the Crossroads of Twilight. The COT is like throwing shit on the Mona Lisa, but still perfection. Skip the COT and you will miss nothing.
Eh, finally did a reread last year for the first time since MoL came out. Wasn't as bad, may'be half of it. Same for the slog but could be knowing the pay-off in the end made me subconsciously skim-read those parts.
Yep, considered putting this on a to read this but THE SLOG is a deal breaker for me. I'm a slow reader, so 3K boring or pointless pages is something I can't invest my time into. Thanks for the video!
Awesome stuff! I’d love to see a video about you going from an avid reader to booktube watcher to booktube creator and what caused you to take those steps
We disagree a lot on Egwene, but I still love all the WOT takes! The fact that people have such vastly different opinions on the characters is part of what makes the series great.
I'm a super hardcore wot fan, and if I listed all my pros for the series, this comment would be the length of wot it's self, but there's a saying on r/wot that is frequently said "it's a series that we love warts and all." So, here are some of the "warts" of the series to me. Edit: You talk faster than I can type, and it seems like we have a lot of the same opinions! -Repetitive character tics. The braid tugging, skirt smoothing, sniffing (is Elayne hiding a coke habit?) This wasn't so bad after I found out that Robert Jordan was an avid poker player, and discovered the online community with the memes. But as a woman, it is pretty hard to fold your arms under your breasts, usually it's kind of over top of them, and it's pretty easy to tell that RJ did not have breasts, and this is highly inaccurate. -The Gender politics. But this series was written if women's and men's roles were reversed. But I thought it was a bit heavy handed. Also, this series was a long time ago, and understanding of gender and gender roles was very much Women are From Venus, Men are From Mars. -The "slog." It was a lot harder to get through when it was years between books, and I think a lot of older fans remember and have held onto that. Can you imagine reading Winter's Heart then waiting three years and then getting Crossroads of Twilight? While knowing the whole time that the end was in sight and so close? It was maddening to the extreme! Now that it's finished tje series does slow down and meander a bit, but it's so much easier now. -The fandom. Like you said, they are an extremely welcoming bunch, love introducing people to the series, love reading theories from new readers, are very careful about spoilers. But, there are certain widely held opinions in the fandom that if you do not agree with, they will come for you with angry words, pitchforks and hails of downvotes. And one of those widely held opinions is... -Brandon Sanderson "saved" the series. Ugh, it was just getting so long and out of focus, and running into the ground. But along came Brandon, and he fixed everything. The pacing, the needless side plots, and he is just the savior of the series. And people completely forget that Knife of Dreams happened. It was a return to form for Jordan and my favorite book out of all of them. "Will he ride alone?" -Brandon Sanderson in general. I will freely admit that in the venn diagram of people who could finish wot and were available, the middle was basically Brandon. But the only criticism you are allowed to voice about his work on the series us "Well he didn't get Mat right at first, but he got better. And we are so lucky to have an ending when SOME series might never get that." Say anything else, and those pitchforks and downvotes come right out. And that's terribly dismissive of authors who are still alive. I don't hate the guy, but there is a huge and noticable difference between the authors for me. I did not notice it as much on my first read, but the older and more widely read I became, on each subsequent reread I did, I noticed it more and more. Until I came to the point where I became one of those rebels who intensely disliked how Brandon handled the series. No matter how politely I worded my criticism of Brandon's contribution I was met with holy hell. And if you're one of those brave souls that agreed with me, and are on here too, thanks. I don't look down on or think badly of those who liked or didn't notice the change. I'm actually kind of jealous. I just think that while Brandon loved and was a fan of the series, he just did not understand how the characters worked, and there was no way their writing styles would flow together for the simple reason of their senses of humour are so different. Robert Jordan had a very dry and witty humour while Brandon has a very dad joke-y, sophomoric poop joke level of humour. Which works in the Cosmere, but NOT wot. There are four scenes in the Sanderson books that are grossly out of character that Robert Jordan would never have written, or if he did he would not have made the characters sound like preschoolers one upping each other or sticking their tongues out at each other. And I'm over here like "Did we read the same book?" -About that rape scene, which it absolutely was, I don't think we're supposed to think that was ok. The character was traumatized, and we're supposed to see how it feels when men disbelieve women and are dismissive. But it just didn't land. Ok, this got long anyways. But I hope everyone is having a great day today and reading something really good.
@@danhenley9495 It just didn't work for me. Especially after reading and enjoying the Cosmere. While I really enjoyed the Cosmere, it was and still is really painful to see characters I grew up with and loved acting so wrong. And then there's the whole humour aspect, which I touched on in my comment. Brandon's sense of humour was too juvenile and did not work in WoT, and this is my hill I will die on.
I'm in the middle on the Brandon Sanderson thing. I do not think in any way, shape, or form that he "saved" the WoT. What? I didn't even know people had that opinion, lol. But I also think he did as good of a job as we were possibly to ever get. Another issue I see with that anti-Brandon crowd is the complete ignoring of the fact that Brandon did an interview where he acknowledged the criticisms and how he got the voice of some characters (Mat) wrong, but in that interview he mentioned that most of those criticisms directed at him, HE DIDN'T WRITE IT. He kept EVERY WORD that RJ had written when he was sick, and that means he left rough draft quality writing in the final publication. The anti-Brandon crowd never acknowledge this, and when I bring it up, they argue something else and avoid the issue. I highly believe that Hinderstap (the section where Mat felt most out of character to me), was rough draft from RJ.
I would say for anyone who comes across this review and picks up the books, especially if you pay attention to writing, Jordan has a lot of writing tics. Mike goes into several of them--folding arms under breasts, tugging braids--but there is also the knuckling of mustaches, and picking at divided skirts. Plus the sexism of the portrayal of the women's character, and with at least one of protagonists, there will not be a breast he comes across that isn't described. My editing brain had to metaphorically put down the pen at times.
Hey Wheelies! Just a reminder that I love the Wheel of Time and I 100% recommend that any and all read the series.
Also, yes. Houston is a swamp. And that’s a sweet little mosquito kiss on my head. Thanks for asking!
instablaster.
You forgot "the smile that never reaches the eyes"😉
Series Spoiler:
Not sure if Mike caught this in Mat’s rape plot, but Nynaeve was the ONLY person that didn’t laugh at Mat’s sexual assault. She confronted Tylin about it, but it only worked for maybe 1 day and Tylin was back at it.
For anyone considering starting WoT, I recently finished the books. No spoilers. I was lost for a bit, didn’t know what to do with no more books in the series. Eventually I realised that this series is so magnificent the only solution is to begin again. Why start a new series when I can explore further what is potentially the greatest depth of world building outside of our own world? You won’t regret it if you do start, is my point, it is worth every second and by the end you’ll only wonder why you hadn’t read it sooner
I finished myself...and I'll say..the amount on unnecessary descriptions of rooms and especially outfits is ridiculous . As soon as Brandon took it up things changed completely to the better.
@@diegomunhoz6508 lol 😂 😂. And don't forget unnecessary books with terrible plot and boring characters.
@@supremeintrovert7404 Extending useless plots only to make them disappear, or lead to no collaboration to the main story. Yeah, the list goes one.
@@diegomunhoz6508 Stormlight is better so far! I hope it can keep being amazing up to book 10.
@@supremeintrovert7404 cool, i'll give it a read
"These books aren't hard to understand. This isn't Malazan." Might have stepped on some toes there haha
But he’s not wrong, is he.
But pronouncing names and cities is hard.
@@darrylgordon6360 easy! Edge-Wenay! Mwah-Rayne or Moy-Rain, same difference. Oh and the appendix apparently with the pronunciations!
It's the truth.
Ooooh burn.
It’s funny when you mention how there are characters everyone from teen to senior would love. I read this as an older teen when the EoTW first came out and have read them all as they got released. I am on a full reread now and it is hilarious how I have changed which character is my fav. As a teen I liked Rand and thought Tam was bossy but now I am like “boy that Tam really is a good guy and what a punk Rand was.”
Ha ha as a dad my first read, I always knew Tam had it right.
@@mikesbookreviews Tam = dad goals.
@@mikesbookreviews As a teen, I knew Tam had it right. However Rands concerns are not wrong in my opinion. And his mistakes under the pressure of the circumstance are also understandable. Even if the actual answers to these concerns are not all that complicated in the end. And his mistakes are ones that he should’ve known not to do, even if what to do wasn’t obvious to him them.
His treatment of the Aiel. His treatment of the Seanchan. His squeamishness is also obnoxious. His haphazard behavior, and inability to understand obvious things when the plot demands it. All issues. Still doesn’t make his arc any less powerful and compelling.
Your idea of the Forsaken slipping on a banana peel is still one of the most hilarious things I’ve ever heard 😂
8:40 It's interesting that both Tolkien and Jordan were war veterans. Tolkien served in WWI and Jordan in the Vietnam war.
when you said "i doubt ill be able to finish everything before i move on to the next life" .. i felt sad for us all with such a small life for soo many good books
Aaaaaaaannnnnndd, this is why I follow Mike. Definitely one of your best videos. You hit the mark on describing everything good or bad in this wonderful epic tale. I loved the series as well and yet have been told that I do not if I describe some of the things you touched upon. And I think it's a shame you had to provide so many legal disclaimers. People, it's his opinion. How many times does he have to say it? You know what big people can do? Newsflash, come close because I have to say it softly: they can either agree or disagree with it. Shocking, I know. I don't agree with everything Mike says, and that's ok. We do agree a lot, though, I'll say that. I'm a Wheelie, too and I will always love it. Obviously, my name implies there is another series I adore more but it doesn't mean the Wheel isn't one of my favorite series, nor diminish my love for it, or that I cannot acknowledge the brilliant job Mike has done here.
Ha ha thanks, my friend. So happy when I see a new comment from you.
this week marks 1 year since i started Wheel of Time, and dragged my sister along for the ride.
it was so great to have your videos to look forward to, before and after each book.
thanks for all the great content Mike!
WOT was my first pandemic binge series (wow, it's been a long year...) and I fully agree with this. The only thing I would add is another "Good" you may not know because of reading physically: the audiobooks are great. Solid way to get through the "slog" (which I agree, just needed a firmer edit and possible merge, definitely not unreadable).
I am also listening to the audiobooks and, wow, they are tremendous.
Love your book reviews. Running through all of them. Very in depth and a lot of detail without giving too much away. Keep up the good work.
Much appreciated!
Late to finding this video, but just gotta agree with it. I will say flat out that the Wheel of Time is my alltime favorite series ever written, thanks to how much depth and detail and how expansive the world is. But good lord its got some issues, too.
Thanks for this. I recently put the series in my TBR and was considering starting it but after this video I've decided to put the series on hold indefinitely. There's just so many fantasy series I wanna read and the bad you talked about was to much for me. I may get to it eventually but not for a while.
Took my trip through the WoT last year, and had a great time. I share many of Mike’s complaints, regardless of what Uhlbeck says.
😂
The tropes are not bad, this is the quintessential dark lord and chosen one book. QUINTESSENTIAL!
I appreciate your take on the series. Like every series, there are high points and low points, but overall the Wheel of Time is definitely worth your time as a reader. It's a world you can get lost in and keep coming back to, always picking up something new that you missed the first time through.
I think an important part of WoT for people, is when in their reading lives they start this series. I read this earlier in my Fantasy readings, and it blew me away. I think if you have been in this genre a long time and have experienced a lot of authors this may not be as much of a home run as some people say. While it is still great, I think finding this world before doing a deep dive into the fantasy genre can be a big factor in how much it resonates with the reader. Just my opinion though.
So true, WOT is the first fantasy series I read, and to this day its still my favorite series!
Thank you for summarizing my biggest issues with this series. I started it in the early 90s and by the end it was a pure hate read (Not saying it was a bad series just that I read the final books out of spite to say I finished it). There is a lot I loved about the series but by and large there was even more I could do with out. I like you felt a pared down and tighter 7-9 book like it was originally intended would have been fantastic. I may give it a re-read in the future, but maybe need another year before I do that (plus those hard covers are heavy to lug around)
For me, the "slog" is comprised of exactly one book. Crossroads of Twilight
Same and it honestly wasn't too bad.
I'm approaching the slog (about to start book 6 in a week or so) and I feel like I won't be so bad for me. I'm new to fantasy, actually new to reading but I'm coming from the anime/manga community where we deal with a lot of slogs so I'm pretty tolerant to stuff like that.
It's not so bad now I think since we don't have to wait years and years in-between books
The way I did rereads as the last few books cane out, Crossroads ended up being one of my most read books. It grew on me actually, to me Path of Daggers is the “slog” but I never really thought it was too bad.
Agreed. Stuck on that one in my current audiobook run. I just don't like this book lol. Just need to trudge through to KoD
I really loved your honest and constructive criticism. I’m one who started the series in the 90’s and for me there was never any mud to drudge through. I can remember wanting some books to be longer while acknowledging some parts were terribly slow, necessary info dumps that were boring and dialogue that went on forever. It was like taking this ride that I knew would pay off huge at the end. I wasn’t disappointed. I forgave Jordan much, like I had to forgive Tolkien and my parents. Criticism after all is only effective if the person is still alive and can enact change. We all change. Jordan went to war. He must have thought it was horrible. I can see it influenced his life. Maybe the thought of some incredibly strong women in his life, kept him alive during the war. I heard stuff like that happens. I love your reviews man. Your insight is worth hearing every time.
I think all your thoughts make sense! I finally started my first "reread" last year, but I listened to all the books on faster speed. I stopped after book 10 because I want to actually read books 11-14, but it hasn't happened yet..😅 So many other books to read! Actually, I'm doing my first reread of Lord of the Rings right now, and enjoying it SO much more than I did reading each book for the first time right after watching each movie.
I just started the series... Usually I am a science fiction reader... but this is amazing.
It's really funny how much the Forsaken ended up helping Rand more than hindering him.
Excellent assessment, Mike! I especially appreciate your thoughts on the gender aspects of the series, both positive and negative. While I love WoT too, I also agree that it would have been better if it had been edited down to ten or fewer books. It’s an awesome achievement, and I’m glad I can say I’ve read and enjoyed it.
7-8 books of this would have been 🔥
@@mikesbookreviews major events from books 8-10 can probably fit into one epic season for the tv series
Hard to counter widely read Booktuber assessments! However, based on straight dive-in beginnings, the wonderful build up and the lovely PROSE and descriptiveness and characters which I so enjoy, I find it actually so exciting that there are THAT many books in the series to read! Whereas the beginning of even Fellowship with its seemingly endless beginnings (Intro, forward, preface, hobbit leaf history, AND chapter one Old Gaffer...) is a “challenge” in order to get to the more spooky aspects of the tale. Whereas notorious Malazan is front-heavy un-relatable yet-Union rated cast listing upfront. While Eye of the World unveils steadily to the reader a widening scope after that epic preface!
About to start A Crown of Swords. I'm kinda glad I know the slog is coming, but it's worth getting past, because I feel some would abandon the series. But I understand how that could scare some people away, like "oh it's 14 books long but these 3-4 can almost be skipped? Not worth it."
One female protagonist that grated your nerves in the first few books, I really like her. I'm only thru 1-5 so far, but I'm guessing you're talking about Nynaeve. She is almost a carbon copy of my best friend's sister, lol! Attitude and all, but with a motherly persona. I enjoy her chapters
The "they would slip on a banana peel" description of the villains made me laugh out loud. It's funny 'cuz it's true.
Excellent video! I'm halfway through MOL and think your thoughts were pretty much spot on. Very much agree! I have two additional issues that I need to get of my chest. Wheelies have been pretty kind to me so far, and hopefully they won't spank me for what I'm about to say.
Also please note. I don't hate the books. It's not an all time favorite, but I still enjoyed the ride (even thought the slog wasn't as sloggy as I'd expected).
BTW, my favorite character hands down, from book 1 and throughout the series, without a doubt: Nynaeve.
That said: SPOILERS BELOW!!!
Once again just to make sure: SPOILERS TO COME!
1) Rands madness is like Indiana Jones in the Raiders of the Lost Ark. Remove this element and it has no impact on the plot. Also, his madness has no consequences for him personally. For example, when he kills off a bunch of his own troops with Callandor, wouldn't have been more interesting if the subsequent assassination attempt were due to his own men not being ok with Rand killing a bunch of their comrades? Instead it's just another darkfriend. Or wouldn't it have been more interesting for the narrative if he had attacked Min in a fit of madness rather than being controlled by the a'dam? If he'd acted mad and made some of his friends turn their back on him? Or if he, due to madness, insisted on some really stupid strategic decision which made some of his allies start a mutiny? Now it's like, he hear voices but is still able to play and constantly win in a 3D chess game involving all the plots and intrigues.
2) Characters. Not all. But quite a few are somewhat lacking. Can someone give me 3-5 adjectives that describes Egwene before she becomes Amyrlin? Can anyone give me examples of personality traits that separates Egwene from e.g. Min?
Sorry, these things have been bugging me for 6 months now. Needed to get that off my chest.
I think the thing I like most about you is your willingness to show some conviction when sharing your viewpoints, without then turning around and feeling as though you need to explain away the point as if it was somehow unjustified. I have a hard time with some booktubers who think all opinions need to be filtered through some lens in order for it to be acceptable or valid. #LFLR
His descriptions make the re-reads very much worth it. Some characters you will recognize as a certain character or from a certain culture just by the description, even though the POV character has no idea about it, you can know if someone is a Kandori, Saldean or Tyrean culture.
And to be fair, in regards to the dislikable females, there were equally dislikable men, every one of the ta'veren had their annoying periods, for one it never really ended. Two out of three of the worst come out of one storyline (aram and perrin) and threequarters of their stories could be "scalped"
I made it half way through. Then I started again and stopped in the middle of book 3. I legit want to read them but I REEEEEEALLY need to be in the right mindset and space them out.
I think the explanation for The Slog is Robert Jordan fell out of love with his main characters. Tor wanted a consistent release schedule. And rather than giving them the #1 sign and finding anything to do but write (like Martin), Jordan wrote plotlines that interested him, but went essentially nowhere in progressing the Main Story.
I could 100% see that.
Do you have any evidence that this was the case? An interview with Jordan or his wife, maybe? I'm not asking to be confrontational, but because I've never heard that and if it's true, would really change the way I read the series.
I agree with commbir. Any further information?
My feeling is that it's more that he wanted the big event at the end of book 9 to happen at a certain point in each character's arc, which meant that all the characters had to wait for the slowest to get into position.
Seems more like he had a huge world but didn't spend enough time in certain countries, like Amadicia, Ghealdan, Arad Doman, and so created plotlines and side quests that really didn't contribute to the main goal in those countries for some characters (Perrin and the Shaido), and plotlines to keep other characters busy until the ending (Elayne and the Caemlyn successor battles). I'll never be convinced Perrin and Elayne couldn't have been left out for a book and have 8-10 combined into one book.
As someone reading the series for the first time thanks for all of the wheel of time content for me to go to as I finish the books. (Especially your reviews) Currently starting The Shadow Rising and I’m excited to see how it goes.
19:35
Thank you. I couldn't believe the characters reactions to it. I can't believe Jordan wrote that in. Totally with you I can't get on board with that part.
23:23
Agreed. The villains were kind of sub par at times compared to everything else. Personally the Dark One did not seem like a huge looming threat to me. Yes there were bubbles of evil and such but I didn't feel like he had much presence in most of the books. As well as the first three books endings did not inspire fear about the Dark One. Not to mention prophecy that the good guys win.
Nice review Mike!
I was just reading the great hunt, perfect timing
I’m about 70% into the Great Hunt as well!
I’m also currently on the Great Hunt. About 120 or so pages in!
These books are great, they are full of wonder, fun, adventure, awesome magic systems, plus has some characters that actually grow and change either for the better or for the worst.
The female characters socially climb, they never really grow.
I liked three of them, Siuan, Min, and sometimes late Moraine.
It made the series almost unreadable, for me.
Other than the truly hardcore wheelies I think it's easy to admit the series' flaws. How much you like the series is partly based on how much those things bother you and how much the great moments outweigh them.
Brent, I think this is right and what Mike has gotten to here. Very helpful for thinking about the series if you are on the fence about continuing.
This exactly. I don't understand either extreme - for me it falls right in the middle. The series clearly has a couple of big(ish) flaws, and because of that if people choose not to read it or stop reading it, I get it! But I think as long as you know those flaws going in, everything else about the series is SO GOOD.
There's a saying that is frequently said on r/wot that "it's a series that we love warts and all."
I think there are real flaws, and simply peoples opinions/prejudices. Someone will say its terrible because chosen one trope is so overdone and predictable. No, thats not a flaw. A flaw is when there is an inarguable error in a story, or a literary convention that is absolutely necessary that is not done. Everything Mike criticizes are easily debated away and if he would acknowledge that they are just his "feelings" and not actual flaws. The entire subreddit is simply full of people saying I didn't like x, and 50 people essentially explaining how flawed that perspective is.
@@Uhlbelk I lost brain cells reading this horseshit.
Mike you are an incredible book reviewer. Cheers mate.
I listened to the whole series on audiobook during my commutes and road trips for work. I think I love it more for the two readers, Kate Reading and Michael Kramer, than for the books themselves.
I’ve heard this a lot.
They're amazing. I have my opinions regarding WoT and he's right to bring up Sanderson's prolific rise since. No true fan should be unwilling to recognize the problematic story structures within the middle of this series (having read them multiple times, both within the og timeframe and later with audiobooks). There's nothing wrong with this level worldbuilding. Part of these 'tropes,' even his inspiration to others regarding the action scenes in different series now, have shaped supporters today. There is much to be said about inspiring the next gen of authors... I've never stopped warning friends that they shouldn't start it if they haven't read enough long series. I'd recommend Mistborn far sooner.
😂 You're right that I warn of the slog. However, as a teacher, I find it easier to build people to this level of worldbuilding, character number, etc. 😅 Not everyone reads as much. I also earn people about GoT, Feast of Crows.🤷
"A character I couldn't stand; by the end of the series, one of my favorites."
I get the strong impression (with context around this statement), this is about Nyneave. If so, I was exactly the same way. But I started reading these books in 2000, so there were LONG gaps of time between releases, so I hated her for a long time, lol.
Still hate her even after the 14 books.
I hate almost every female character in the series because they all hate on men for no reason
I didn't think much about the ta'veren explanations while reading, so to me they were obviously within the range of acceptable. The bubbles of evil however, I found to be 100% forced plot devices to build up tension without explanation and I utterly hated it every time they appeared. No matter if living playing cards, sandstorms or Hinderstap; I would gladly enjoy it if the tv show would, if not remove all of them, then in the least provide more explanations for the happenings.
Read through WOT "together with you" through the first half of 2020 and was looking forward to your reviews after every book. Absolutely love that you are as critical as you are when analyzing them, and am looking forward to further videos. Keep it up!
Bubbles of Evil were so dumb I forgot about them.
The wheel of time series is my all time favorite! Having said this series synopsis is spot on!
Great breakdown. I know a lot of fandoms who get their nose out of joint if you bring up any dislikes or weaknesses. I’ve never subscribed to that. It doesn’t help your cause of getting new fans if you can’t look at it honestly. The sheer size of this story makes it a statistical impossibility that you are going to love every part of it. Though, might be easier for me to say that here, since you line up with my likes and dislikes of WoT approx 90% of the time! (Had to take a few deep breaths when you didn’t name Rand as your #1 OR #2 character!😜). The slog is different for each person, so I agree, stop TELLING people who are trying to decide about whether to read this or not about it! For some it’s books 5-8, for others it might be 7-10. Or, if you’re like me, MOST of the books had a slog-ish part, but each book had things I loved in it as well (except The Dragon Reborn). But my other point about this, Mike, is that there’s no rule that says when you re-read the series, you have to read the ENTIRE thing. Skip the parts you don’t like! You already know the story, it’s not necessary to put yourself through the parts you don’t enjoy again. I think that’s why I keep the series in such high esteem. I forget how much of it is uninteresting to me…because I no longer read those parts! 😂
Thanks for the videos! I'm almost finished book 5. Loving The Wheel of Time so far! A little worried about the slog.
Can't wait for the series!
The slog is real. Or I should say i was worse back when we fans were waiting a year or more per book. You wait a year to read a book and it hardly progresses the plot. Ugh. But I re-read the series last year and the slog isn't as big a deal now since the books are all out and you just move through them Plus, they aren't bad. There is plenty of fantasy out there far worse. They're just not up to Jordan's best work.
I only read the first 3 but it did kind of spoil future reads because I didn't feel like I could see the characters or the environment in such rich detail like Jordan was able to paint.
I discovered your channel a few months ago and you convinced me to read WOT. I don’t regret it at all! Sure it has parts I don’t really care for but what story doesn’t.
I’m ready for a re-read, I haven’t read through the end of this series and haven’t read them since the late 90s early 2000s. I’m starting to purchase them now to start it. I guess this series for some reason that I was a huge fan of in my 20s and loved was forgotten. My ex husband had gotten me into them and the books went with him when we split up. I never replaced them. I really regret that, now that they are making a show I really want to finally finish this series.
I just created my account in here, and have watched a couple of your videos. I’m really enjoying them, I find that I agree a lot with your opinions. Love your library, thought I had a big one. Yours puts mine to shame.
I noticed some slow parts during the books, and it is less on the re-reads, however, I never knew of the slog until I got into the online community, after 4-5 readings of the books. The same with the hatred of certain characters. Many of which I disgreed with. Point being - Read them yourselves and make up your own minds. We all have our own opinions, and that's why there are booktube videos that we love! Mike, absolutely great video. I agree, and disagree and love your WoT videos.
Tbh I was grateful to know about the slog beforehand because I was prepared and it didn't bother me that much because of this preparedness. Also agree with most points, I have a hard time with a lot of the female characters (Egwene and Siuane get better and the actions and attitudes of some still important but not main female charcters were at least understandable).
Oh yeah I also agree with the villains being mostly jokes. I really don't like the trope of the evil ones all being absolute terrified of the higher ups, backstabbing their equals and using the people under them like toys. I mean this is the most toxic way to run an organization and make sure that no one joins you. I mean you get promised eternal life but you have to survive until then and everyone is out there to get you (even your "allies" because they want to rule a big chunk of land when the Dark One wins). The Forsaken are supposedly those terrible and strong bad sorcerers but they only play their games and want to be the Dark One's favorite lap dog and come off as rather pathetic, petty or just dumb because they can't trust each other and kinda fight each other as much or even more so than our farmboy heroes. And do I have to mention Elaida? She's so incompetent and ignorant about things she doesn't want to know about she's Nynaeve but worse and without the somewhat redeeming quality to want to help and heal people (which is up to now the only good thing I can say about Nynaeve because ahe is so infuriating and insufferable Idk why Lan is doing this to himself)
Ok you convinced me....I just need to pick up the book. 😆
Hey Mike. Great video. I agree on many things. You had a lot of good points. For myself, the biggest flaw in the series is chasing Seanchans from one book to another. Rand should have destroyed them by the end of the 9th book at the latest. There would have been one big and useless plot pattern left out.
Read the books over the last 3 months and I loved your reviews after I finished each book. I agree with you completely would have been great if it was 7/8 but it's just too long. Keep up the good work mate!
You read over 11k pages in 3 months?
@@folksurvival it was lockdown brother
I'm in the first half of the sixth book and the criticism I agree with the most is about the villains. I can't tell most of the forsaken from each other and fades have gone from the really scary black riders to basically on the same level as trollocs but with twice the hit points. At the end of the day those things don't really bother me because I haven't read many series with great villains and the story and the characters are really good and interresting so I'm approaching the slog with an optimistic attitude.
Great video Mike! I’m currently doing a reread of the series. I’m about 1/2 way through The Great Hunt and yes RJ totally flips the script when it comes to traditional fantasy. I’m picking up on so many things that I missed the first time around. Books 1-6 really are like 2 separate trilogies, they are that good. I’m excited to get to books 7-14 mainly because I blew through all of those books on audible and I don’t remember much of what happens. So I’m definitely going to take my time with those.
I look so much forward to begin reading this serie!
Hay Mike one of your Wheelies here, just noticed in this video about RJ's influences, I noticed that Aes Sidhe are irish words to describe the Fairy Folk of Ireland who are akin to Tolkiens elves. So when I read WOT I assumed some influences came from the old Fairy myths....We all see different pieces of the mosaic 🤠
The upcoming release of the show made me want to start this series, but I needed this video to actually pick up the book and start reading, I'm only 4 chapters into the Eye of the World and very interested so far!
Glad you’re giving it a try!
I'm on The Shadow Rising and I'll admit that the premise of being Ta'veren is kind of bugging me a little. It feels like it somewhat drains their agency in their choices. I do like how they don't want their destiny but are ending up fulfilling it anyway but it bugs me that they're compelled to fulfill it, honestly. "Things happen because the in-universe plot wills it" kind of always has bothered me. He's pulling it off but it kind of doesn't completely sit right.
About to start the fourth book and totally agree with you.
That's one of my main issues with these books! Rand is constantly dragged along and is only a hero when he absolutely has to be. None of the characters really make their own decisions. Perrin and Mat only feel the need to help Rand not because he's their friend but because the Pattern is pulling at them and they have no choice but to help him. It somehow makes the characters far less compelling to me. They have very little agency.
I'm on my first reread (there will be many) and have been waiting for "The Slog". I'm about half way through Crossroads of Twilight (book 10) and didn't even realise I was there. I noticed it the first time reading, the pace definitely slows a bit, but there is such great character building and development in that stretch that the reread makes it a pleasure. The action sequences are great and I totally agree about just wanting MORE STORY but I am grateful for these slower books as it allows Jordan to shine.
This series was my intro to the fantasy genre back in the late 90s, so it's near and dear to me. That being said, I think you have valid points. I don't have the same feelings for all of them, but we are good. I respect that.
What’s your favorite series of all time?
@@Morfeusm The Dark Tower (Stephen King). You?
@@Michael_L_Morrison Tolkien aside I would say Song of Ice and Fire!
@@Morfeusm Those are good!
Try out the Realm of the Elderlings (Farseer Trilogy, Liveships, Fitz, Fool)
Really good video, and thanks for non-spoilers as only on Book 3! For me, it’s only natural that a book series this long will have highs and lows. It’s just a shame that people jump on things they don’t agree with it and feel compelled to explain why you are wrong.
You’re absolutely correct. For a series to go this long and still be as great as it is was an amazing accomplishment.
I think WoT is amazing with so much good going on and even most its flaws becomes dear to us after a while.
One thing I love is the characters, so many good main & side character.
One thing I struggle with is the recap in the begining of each book. So much of the first chapters are catch ups from last books and explanations about how the world works. It was probably great when the books were being published, but now they feel a bit unnecessay when picking up the next one shortly after finishing the previous one
Nevertheless, great books, good to get a WoT video from you again Mike
Hey Mike, I've been one of your wheelies from the beginning and I can't believe it's been 2 years! You and I have had a few interactions in the comments, I feel we are very like minded with many things and our passion for dune runs strong (nice shirt). Congrats on your success you are by far my favorite youtuber for this type of presentation about books you are reading, your positivity and honesty is refreshing. Now I just need you to read berserk and the circle will be complete haha. Much love my man here's to 2 more years and beyond 🍻
I appreciate it! Have yet to actually secure a copy of Berserk yet.
Back when I first started reading this series in the early aughts, I was kind of enjoying it. I didn't really care for the first couple of books too much but it seemed that the fantasy pickings at my local bookstore were slimmer back then. So, I was reading them and they were alright. Then I got to the Battle of Dumai Wells. And Holy COW. I was then hooked. That scene and the lead up to it is still one of the best sequences I have ever read in a fantasy novel. I think I actually had to stand up and cheer.
Love some WoT talk. This channel helped me get into it last year🙌 Read all 15 books and have reread the first 3 this year (on top of all the other books on my list lol). Glad I got my love for reading back and dove into it all
Maybe they could turn the Mat-Tylin relationship consensual, or even omit completely. But I think it might be better if they include it while hammering in "THIS IS NOT OK" all the way through.
great video, i already started WoT for the first time (finished Eye of the World last week) and so far i am enjoying it.
I'll be picking up Wheel of Time after I complete John Gwynne's initial 'Faithful and Fallen' series. I cannot wait to read this, Jordan seemed like a truly innovative writer.
You're in for a treat with both series. I do recommend binge reading Faifthful and the Fallen because after half of the first book it's constant action and questing and I loved it.
@@aysseralwan I finished Malice a few days ago, currently reading Knight of the Seven Kingdoms by GRRM as a break between those chunky Gwynne books!
Wheel of Time is by far the best fantasy epic I've read, it eclipses Tolkien in many aspects. Upon my 6th reread I was just as captivated (if not more) than the first time, the subtle foreshadowing is crazy and the characters feel like you've known them your entire life. I hope you enjoy it!
Great idea for a video. Would love to see you tackle some other series in this style.
That’s the plan! I’ll probably do Sanderson next and REALLY piss people off.
@@mikesbookreviews Looking forward to it! Give Sando hell :-D
I feel like 7-8 books would have been too few as I think the series length while sometimes a weakness is also a strength because of the amount of character development it allows to happen, particularly with Rand. I think 10 books would have been perfect
I'm starting the third book tomorrow!! So excited
Great video, Mike. I'm fairly new to fantasy so trying to bash out a few of the smaller series (bar Malazan) but this definitely encourages me to get to WoT at some point. Appreciate the spoiler free content.
The r8pe scene sounds like Jordan was putting a real life situation in the books. For a long time many didn't believe (or sociatal belief) it could happen to men. Its only the last decade or so that it's become a "yes it happens to everyone" thought process.
Thanks Mike, I’ll jump back in and start book 6 again. The female characters complaining on every page is actually my biggest issue I think. That’s so hard to read, I can handle torturing characters and misery but complaining about everyone and every thing is definitely the biggest detractor. I think Mike just sold book 7 and on in a way no one else has been able to do for me. If Jordan can turn these female characters around to become some of my favourites that’s it, I’m gonna dive back in. Thanks Mike
One thing I am having trouble with...eh I can’t really fully differentiate between the many nations, they blend in sometimes, and i take responsibility that I’d have to pay more attention.
I always get Falme and Tanchico mixed up myself lol
kudos for taking responsibility, most people just blame the author, and then box themselves into a corner trying to defend their opinion against 50 people with the textual references. Its difficult to keep track when you don't necessarily have a lot of experience and knowledge, I find google to be pretty great if some words are not super familiar talking about a topic i'm not super familiar with. Bandar Ebon that has wooden sidewalks which is not particularly common so you can google that, find images, compare with other descriptions and then come to a mental picture of something like the old west, or old japan style cities. But more importantly is Domani woman wear fabric that is nearly transparent and clingy and are the primary merchants while the men are the artisans and laborers. It might be hard to remember that Bandar Ebon is the capital of Arad Doman, but coppery skin and super sexy is kinda the primary thing to know to get 95% of the cultural identification in the books. Mostly it IS simply paying attention, but its hard to break the story to google or take time to sit and think about the descriptions, but you can always read through, get to a good stopping point and then go back.
My new favourite verb "cobra commandered"!!
Just reading the Dragon Reborn.. already irriatated of Nynaeve's braid tugging.. but i dont care much coz i'm already committed to finish it by the end of this year. Loving it till this point ❤️
It's a great series. Not perfect but definitely worth reading. It could have done more with a bit of editing
I remember feeling this way when I read the first few books, having recently finished them I’d say Nynaeves one of my favourite characters.
Your opinion on her may change!
Yes, I have heard that a lot about Mat and Nynaeve's character later in the series. And it's not that I dont like her much (at this point i'll admit i dont care much about the ladies except Moiraine) but it's just that I am irritated of her continous braid tugging all the time.. 😄😄
@@umangu2466 yeh I think I found the female characters kind of miss for the post part in the first few books on first read, it’s only now I’ve seen where they go and what they become that I’ve began to develop a deeper understanding of why they act as they do! Hope you enjoy the rest of the series brother
@@LyricalEmber always a sucker for nice character arcs.. i hope i end up loving this series as much as you do..
Awesome video! I can’t agree with everything, but I must admit that I do indeed agree with most of your point on both good and bad.
There’s definitely going to be varying opinions on any series this long.
@@mikesbookreviews Definitely!
I needed this video. I may start WoT this summer.
I just ordered the entire series. All 15 books. I'm beyond excited. The Amazon show, as well as being a Brandon Sanderson fan, got me really interested in checking it out. Awesome video.
Subbed!🔥🔥🔥
Waste.of money
@@evelic 😂 nah I enjoyed myself plus I ended saving money at the same time. Win win as far as I'm concerned
The WOT Compendium app really helps just to keep all the characters straight.
Great point about "the slog" it's honestly the only reason I haven't read WoT yet
Your videos were great to watch after I finished each book. They even inspired me to make my first booktube video.
I also want to reread the series but i also want to read new stuff just like you said. I might listen to the first two or three books before the tv show premieres.
re: The Rape Scene - I hate that scene as well, but I also felt that it was written that way on purpose? Like Jordan himself didn't feel that way personally, but women in this world would?
He stated somewhere in an interview where Women are usually the ones that get sexually assaulted, which is something not to ignore, but hearing a man telling he was sexually assaulted will get him a batten eye and suspicious because rape amongst men wasn't something that was a common issue back then, but it was, which resulted in the whole men getting assaulted by women in the books to play exactly. Showing that men can be vunarable in situations.
I agree, I don't think Jordan was mocking men that were raped but He showed the flaws of many women even in modern times, Men get blown off or laughed at if they've been abused.
Overall I think the series should be read. Especially for people who want to understand the foundations of modern fantasy. It carries a LOT of nostalgia for a huge number of people as well. It has more good than bad when all is said and done. But the bad can be really bad at times...Which is disappointing for me because I think it had the promise to be THE fantasy series that sits without argument as the king of the genre. I don't even blame him for most of the issues it has though. He should have had an editor willing to take the hard stances. For me the repetition of EVERYTHING was the thing that killed it for me. Especially on a re-read. The descriptions, tics, and cultural stereotypes etc. everyone talks about but I almost never see anyone talk about how he uses the same plot device over.. and over... and over. How many times can the capture/kidnap/rescue cycle be repeated? Well Jordan was damned determined to find out. This is where that editor should have been adamant about stepping in. "You know Rob, this is the nth time you've had character XYZ in this position. Since you've had characters ABC, GHI, TUV, and LMNOP all also be captured multiple times don't you think we should find a new device to drive a plot for this book?" I noticed it the first time I read the series but the second time I made my journey through this series it just drove it home for me that while I enjoyed most of the story as a new reader now that I'm close to 1000 books into my reading experience I don't need to spend any additional time in Rand Land. Even with the flaws though I think most people who are avid readers should take the plunge.
Always love your WoT stuff! Slip a quick reread in sometime.
Great video, definitely want to read wheel of time now! Been putting it off for so long 😁
Hope you enjoy!
Did you start?
I did, reading 1st book atm, about half way
21:25 the long walk 🚶♂️👌 and hunger games...well played
Hard to deny.
I am on my first reading of WoT, because of Mike’s Book Reviews in fact, and about halfway though Eye of The World. Am well entertained, but agree with the “very tropy” comment. Also Brandon Sanderson’s writing advice about feeling free to borrow structure from other texts you like comes to mind as, structurally, book one so far feels almost like a blow for blow rehash of Fellowship of The Ring’s run to Rivendell, (if you have to copy, might as well copy the best of the bunch😄) and I’m still waiting for it to deviate.
Did anyone else feel this way?
Just started on the great hunt, now I'm curious about what the hard left turn will be, hmmm
It’s so fun.
@@mikesbookreviews I'll be looking forward to it!
The Wheel of Time is a Masterpiece...except for the Crossroads of Twilight. The COT is like throwing shit on the Mona Lisa, but still perfection. Skip the COT and you will miss nothing.
Eh, finally did a reread last year for the first time since MoL came out. Wasn't as bad, may'be half of it. Same for the slog but could be knowing the pay-off in the end made me subconsciously skim-read those parts.
*spoiler*
Besides Perrin ditching the axe and Egwene getting captured, what else even happens in that book?
Yep, considered putting this on a to read this but THE SLOG is a deal breaker for me. I'm a slow reader, so 3K boring or pointless pages is something I can't invest my time into. Thanks for the video!
Awesome stuff! I’d love to see a video about you going from an avid reader to booktube watcher to booktube creator and what caused you to take those steps
Just bought the first 3 books. Will start them in May 🤗
Did you?
Great video. I agree with most, if not all. Especially the anti-Elayne sentiment.
Iwish I had a house big enough to have book shelves like that one!!
We disagree a lot on Egwene, but I still love all the WOT takes! The fact that people have such vastly different opinions on the characters is part of what makes the series great.
I'm a super hardcore wot fan, and if I listed all my pros for the series, this comment would be the length of wot it's self, but there's a saying on r/wot that is frequently said "it's a series that we love warts and all." So, here are some of the "warts" of the series to me. Edit: You talk faster than I can type, and it seems like we have a lot of the same opinions!
-Repetitive character tics. The braid tugging, skirt smoothing, sniffing (is Elayne hiding a coke habit?) This wasn't so bad after I found out that Robert Jordan was an avid poker player, and discovered the online community with the memes. But as a woman, it is pretty hard to fold your arms under your breasts, usually it's kind of over top of them, and it's pretty easy to tell that RJ did not have breasts, and this is highly inaccurate.
-The Gender politics. But this series was written if women's and men's roles were reversed. But I thought it was a bit heavy handed. Also, this series was a long time ago, and understanding of gender and gender roles was very much Women are From Venus, Men are From Mars.
-The "slog." It was a lot harder to get through when it was years between books, and I think a lot of older fans remember and have held onto that. Can you imagine reading Winter's Heart then waiting three years and then getting Crossroads of Twilight? While knowing the whole time that the end was in sight and so close? It was maddening to the extreme! Now that it's finished tje series does slow down and meander a bit, but it's so much easier now.
-The fandom. Like you said, they are an extremely welcoming bunch, love introducing people to the series, love reading theories from new readers, are very careful about spoilers. But, there are certain widely held opinions in the fandom that if you do not agree with, they will come for you with angry words, pitchforks and hails of downvotes. And one of those widely held opinions is...
-Brandon Sanderson "saved" the series. Ugh, it was just getting so long and out of focus, and running into the ground. But along came Brandon, and he fixed everything. The pacing, the needless side plots, and he is just the savior of the series. And people completely forget that Knife of Dreams happened. It was a return to form for Jordan and my favorite book out of all of them. "Will he ride alone?"
-Brandon Sanderson in general. I will freely admit that in the venn diagram of people who could finish wot and were available, the middle was basically Brandon. But the only criticism you are allowed to voice about his work on the series us "Well he didn't get Mat right at first, but he got better. And we are so lucky to have an ending when SOME series might never get that." Say anything else, and those pitchforks and downvotes come right out. And that's terribly dismissive of authors who are still alive. I don't hate the guy, but there is a huge and noticable difference between the authors for me. I did not notice it as much on my first read, but the older and more widely read I became, on each subsequent reread I did, I noticed it more and more. Until I came to the point where I became one of those rebels who intensely disliked how Brandon handled the series. No matter how politely I worded my criticism of Brandon's contribution I was met with holy hell. And if you're one of those brave souls that agreed with me, and are on here too, thanks. I don't look down on or think badly of those who liked or didn't notice the change. I'm actually kind of jealous. I just think that while Brandon loved and was a fan of the series, he just did not understand how the characters worked, and there was no way their writing styles would flow together for the simple reason of their senses of humour are so different. Robert Jordan had a very dry and witty humour while Brandon has a very dad joke-y, sophomoric poop joke level of humour. Which works in the Cosmere, but NOT wot. There are four scenes in the Sanderson books that are grossly out of character that Robert Jordan would never have written, or if he did he would not have made the characters sound like preschoolers one upping each other or sticking their tongues out at each other. And I'm over here like "Did we read the same book?"
-About that rape scene, which it absolutely was, I don't think we're supposed to think that was ok. The character was traumatized, and we're supposed to see how it feels when men disbelieve women and are dismissive. But it just didn't land.
Ok, this got long anyways. But I hope everyone is having a great day today and reading something really good.
Fantastic comment. Thanks so much! Difficult to disagree with any of it.
Brandon Sanderson saved Wheel of Time and Wheel of Time made Brandon Sanderson famous. There should be love both ways
Great comment, well put👍
@@danhenley9495 It just didn't work for me. Especially after reading and enjoying the Cosmere. While I really enjoyed the Cosmere, it was and still is really painful to see characters I grew up with and loved acting so wrong. And then there's the whole humour aspect, which I touched on in my comment. Brandon's sense of humour was too juvenile and did not work in WoT, and this is my hill I will die on.
I'm in the middle on the Brandon Sanderson thing. I do not think in any way, shape, or form that he "saved" the WoT. What? I didn't even know people had that opinion, lol. But I also think he did as good of a job as we were possibly to ever get.
Another issue I see with that anti-Brandon crowd is the complete ignoring of the fact that Brandon did an interview where he acknowledged the criticisms and how he got the voice of some characters (Mat) wrong, but in that interview he mentioned that most of those criticisms directed at him, HE DIDN'T WRITE IT. He kept EVERY WORD that RJ had written when he was sick, and that means he left rough draft quality writing in the final publication. The anti-Brandon crowd never acknowledge this, and when I bring it up, they argue something else and avoid the issue. I highly believe that Hinderstap (the section where Mat felt most out of character to me), was rough draft from RJ.
I would say for anyone who comes across this review and picks up the books, especially if you pay attention to writing, Jordan has a lot of writing tics. Mike goes into several of them--folding arms under breasts, tugging braids--but there is also the knuckling of mustaches, and picking at divided skirts. Plus the sexism of the portrayal of the women's character, and with at least one of protagonists, there will not be a breast he comes across that isn't described. My editing brain had to metaphorically put down the pen at times.