How Ion Propulsion, Lifters and Ionocrafts Work
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- Опубліковано 14 гру 2013
- How ion propulsion in lifters, my Star Trek Enterprise model and other ionocrafts work, basically how ion wind works in these types of devices. This shows how the electric field between a sharp object connected to a smooth object cause movement in the direction of the sharp object and an ion wind in the opposite direction. To create this electric field I use my homemade high voltage power supply.
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See also:
Star Trek Enterprise Model with Ion Propulsion added
• Star Trek Enterprise M...
How to Make/Build a Lifter or Ionocraft
• How to Make/Build a Li...
How to Make Piezoelectric Crystal Speaker
• How to Make Piezoelect...
And more...
How to Make 30kV High Voltage DC Power Supply
• How to Make 30kV High ...
Make Ionocraft/Ion Wind Spinning Disks
• Make Ionocraft/Ion Win...
Lifter Voltage/Current and Smoke/Aiflow Test Measurements
• Lifter Voltage/Current...
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3D drawing and animation done using Blender 2.63.
Music used throughout:
Bicycle Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
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ISRC: USUAN1100870 - Наука та технологія
Great explanation and great animations! Your videos just keep getting better and better! Nice work!
Thanks! The animations are a lot of fun to do.
InstaBlaster
This is a great explanation. Read about lifters in a visual novel recently that didn't really give an explanation as to how it worked or even what it is. This fills that gap perfectly.
So the big question is, can an ion lifter produce enough lift to carry its own high voltage power supply, some passengers, a bathroom, a kitchen, and a living room?
Hsfh Fejtpo you would have to make one. I was thinking of using solar panels, batteries, and a custom transformer.
They use them in space on satellites with a liquified gas where gravity isnt a factor.
The military does
Sure. Just scale it up.
Yes. If you could produce enough power... We'll probably have to wait for fusion.
A wonderful, compelling explanation. Well done!
Great physics explanation! The rollerblades analogy was a nice touch.
Earlier on I decided I wanted to learn exactly how ion propulsion works. Thanks for uploading this
You're welcome. Glad to hear it was timely.
Wondering how I my ion propelled Enterprise worked? Or how a lifter or other ionocraft works? All is revealed in this new video. Enjoy!
why do you tie your lifter? infact almost all the ionocraft videos ive seen, the lifter has been taped/tied to the ground quite closely. why not just let it fly straight up then lower the voltage and get it down ?
EpicBunty
The three sides of a lifter produce varying thrust in different amounts. Since there's no independent control for each side, if the lifter weren't tied down then it would fly erratically all over the place, within the limits of the feed wires. So the thrust is turned up such that the threads are all being pulled tightly. That means that two sides are thrusting more than they need to be and the third side is thrusting just enough to keep the threads on that side tight.
i thought so!
how erratic is it ? I'm sure with a little bit of experimenting and tinkering you can make a model which flies stably.. right? or have you not played around enough ?
EpicBunty
It can be very erratic. I've played around a lot because you often have to do that just to get it so that all sides are thrusting enough just to get off the ground. It appears as though the more sides you have, the more stable you can get it. I guess many more sides averages out the differences in different areas. So the lifters made up of many triangles tend to be more stable. But I've still never seen anyone be able to remove the threads.
wow! thanks for the info.
If you ever do end up finding a video of a stable lifter, mind sending me a link ?
Thanks so very much, that was the most clear and easy to digest information about ion propulsion I have ever heard, mere words cannot express my sincere gratitude to you. Big smiles from me to you!! 😊
P.s. I have already made one lifter type in the past without much success but with this added information I'm most certain I can do it now.
great explanation
Thanks.
Extremely well-explained!
Amazing video.
The action Lab made a video about ion propulsion and I wanted to know more, so here I am :)
Great explanation and also great to see you are still working with these devices. I see you still have my old PDFs on your site :) If you want to collaborate on making a stronger force, let me know and we can see if we can come up with some ideas.
Leon Tribe Thanks. Great hearing from you again. From what I can tell from analytics, your PDFs still get some looking over each month. I'm not really working on these devices anymore, I'm more showing them to people who've never seen them before.
Sir, that is remarkable presentation, thank you.
Thank you, It's very clear comments!
Brilliantly explained, thanks
Very good job on the video.
Refreshing! Especially if you just watched zombo TV box.
Outstanding Sir. Great explanation. My electric shop teacher told us about the "theory " of thi back in 1974, making a working model is another story. 73 OM
They have made a drone using this method
Technology is fucking amazing!
ua-cam.com/video/UGM4JXVB5FM/v-deo.html
This video helped me a lot, thank you.
Very well explained! Thanks for posting!
Thanks! Glad you like it!
Now I have to build one that I can rid around on!!! :)
Nice style of explaining.
Wonderful explanation.
Thanks for all of your ultra-high-quality videos--it is rare to find someone who has the gift of true teaching (which requires core knowledge of the subject). This allows others with the potential to excel quickly. After studying your "how ion propulsion works" video, I would like to ask your opinion on something. I have the requirement to set up TWO independent spark gaps--one, let's say points north-south, and the other east-west. They are at about the same level and will intersect each other, however, their high voltage power supply's are 100% isolated capacitors, no common grounds, etc. I would like to ensure that if the two arcs fire simultaneously that no electrical connection or current path will be present--sort of like light or sound,i.e once passed the "region of crossing" it is as if neither was aware the other existed!! Any ideas on this construction?
Thanks MUCH,
--dalE
+dale nassar Unfortunately sparks are not like light. If I understand you correctly, I don't see how this can work. Each sphere will spark to the one closest to it that is at the opposite polarity.
Really nice explanation
The best explanation ever.
Thanks for your high quality videos andr
explanation
Great explanation
Great explanation Thank you!
Fantastic video!
Great video!
Great video
Great video! Thanks for explaining this, but I'm really curious how switching the polarity works. Would electrons be pushed towards the smooth end and cause ionic wind?
Brainscrawler Roughly speaking, yes. See starting here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge#Mechanism_of_corona_discharge for more about the differences between the positive and negative coronas.
Great explanation,
Thaks , its a really helpfull explanation !
Best video explanation 👍👍👍👍
Sir
U are classy👍👍👍
Thanks for the video
This tech is amazing
I should have come across this years ago
Really awesome!
very nice video.
Thanks. This is good stuff.
Nicely done thank you.
Thanks.
Well then... when I was younger, I built a remake of Rimsterorg's ion lifter, but I never knew you needed high voltage. I USED A HALF DEAD 9 VOLT BATTERY!!!
That was awesome 👌 👏 😎
very very very didactic!!! thank you!!!
great vid!
Awesome stuff.
That video was so good maybe the best one I seen in sometime, years ago I seen I guy make a big one of them in he's garage ever since then I always wanted to know if that was real, because it looked like magic lol
The fast-moving ions produce the corona discharge from the point of drag air molecules along to create the electrical windand since the luminous portion of the flame is positively charged maybe
Nice one!
Thank you !
Very insightful. =)
best channel bro
I was reading this technology being used in building the B2 bomber. What is your thoughts on that? Great video btw :)
That reminds me to change my DILITHIUM CRYSTALS. Thanks.
great thanks✌
I find this fascinating. I believe that the wheel is holding us back. We seem to be at a standstill. Keep at it I believe you are on to something very big maybe not in my life time I am 70. But wouldn't be amazing if this teck worked incredibly well in the waitress state of space
It's not just about sharp & smooth, but also about charge distribution , with the wire the charge is concentrated promoting ionization, whilst the collector electrode has a larger surface area which doesn't promote ionization.
Holy wow!
If the polarization doesn't matter, does it work with AC power supply ?
thanks!
In 2003 Thomas Bader and Chris Farzi worked together to examine the Biefeld-Brown effect by first reproducing the effect and reviewing the history through patents held by Brown. Several theories were tested and proposed, with quick theoretical calculations to determine whether the theory was sufficient to provide the force necessary for the thrust noticed by operating ionocraft. A conclusion is reached that the Ionic wind force is too small is reached by assuming that the particles being propelled are electrons. This assumption would suggest that a small force would be noticed in a vacuum since the electrons could come from the emitter on the ionocraft. Using the following two equations:
1/2mv^2 =qV
where m is the mass of the moving particle, v is the velocity of that particle, q is the charge on the particle, and V is the voltage across the asymmetric capacitor. This is the kinetic energy of the particles being moved around by the electric field.
F=mv*i/q
Assuming collisions are completely elastic the change in momentum is calculated as above. The variables are the same as before with I being the current flowing across the capacitor. This also assumes that none of the particles collide with the collector.
Combining these equations they conclude that the force is 5 orders of magnitude too small to be the cause.
Pressure Mediation based in frequency and bandwidth...
No particles involved...
Makes me think of brushed motor to brushless,..then to rail gun,... Inverted to "ion" thruster... (Sympathetic resonant magnetic drive)
Nice video
Thank you for your explanation.
I wonder, what would happen if between the two electrodes there was a nitrogen laser beam? Would it help to ionise the air?
Thank's
It's hard to say if that would be a good thing. If it did ionize the air, keep in mind that we still need those un-ionized neutral atoms/molecules to push against.
Hi interesting, and first I'd like to thank you for the awesome, to the point, easy to understand and informative video.
I'm wondering how much power we're talking when it comes to moving an object using ionic thrust per any measure of weight?
I don't have any numbers for that. I have trouble measuring the current so I can't calculate power.
hi if you make this a bigger engine do you get any electrical discharge "lightning bolts" i mean i work on plasma propulsion ideas. one i have is a plasma reactor rocket engine . a magnetron generating plasma from silicon dioxide that gets drawn to a dc magnet, then a cathode ray fires electrons at it to overload the plasma field. a plasma explosion equal to a combustion chamber of a rocket to create thrust. and a plasma turbojet doing the same thing . the pressure from the electrical/plasma explosion for thrust and to spin a turbine to bring in more plasma.
do you have any plans to test this in isolated conditions???
4:35 yes that is what i was thinking ...! 🤔🤔
But in space there's no neutral atoms other then that which exists in the chamber so what for this case ?
Does the geometric proportions and/or elemental property, structure and state have an influence?
What about the charge applied, does Voltage and frequency have a role? ie; 220V, 113mHz Poloyphase charge used to create a resonant signal sympathetic to that of the atmospheric gas being targeted? Or is the regular form of AC applied at, or above relevant thresholds adequate? I feel as though we are still creating crude and horribly inefficient proof of concepts.
Am thinking a crystalline metal such as bismuth (or what ever suits the particular nature of energy transfer) is a good starting point, furthered by accurate geometrical properties.
Further advancement from;
Accurate wave form adaptation to facilitate a reversible, self amplification characteristic to be implemented.
Thrust multiplication of thrust by application of force and/or wave forms -ultrasonic, microwave / alfven waves. Then refinement of such incorporations as indicative by environment, not mathematical guesswork.
And so on...
In 100 years these engines could advance in o the point that our best working models look no better than the wright brothers flight.
Cool!
This is the first time I seen anyone who knew what they were talking about, Most people are clueless when it comes to this stuff
But since I agree with your principles and know of it and am not involved with this type of thrust, but maybe after I finish my research, here's something you may be able to incorporate into your thrust-er as an experiment.
I'm researching constant magnetic acceleration, Now I would suggest to see if you could build a set of magnetic coils that encompass the one end or through the whole accelerating chamber .a number of small coils to accelerate the flow of ions,
Do that to see if it will increase the speed of movement of your vehicle. It would be interesting to know what effect this would have on acceleration etc.
Keep thinking and let me know what happens if you do it.
Well yea it would because the more your wrap a coil the stronger the magnetic field and thus higher voltage. More voltage more current per second. Current is electrons adn the electrons bumb into atoms making ions.
Very nice shall we do it wireless ?
So this is possible to do on a dc circuit. Are there any formulas available gor this kind of device?
This circuit is DC. However, it's high voltage DC. As for formulas, there are but I don't have any off-hand. I know Peek's law is often used en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peek%27s_law.
I'm assuming it's not as efficient as a physical propeller or impeller, but still, very, very interesting mechanics at work.
THKS
Hi, can ion propulsion work if the points are attached to the curved surface, i.e. pointing out from it, as they are connected to it via wiring anyway, or do they need to be separate from it for the effect described in the video to take place?
The side with the sharp points can be attached to a curved surface as long as the points stick out away from the surface. The other side will still have to be an entirely smooth surface though.
What are your thought on in atmosphere propulsion. It clearly works on a small scale but given an adequate power supply would it be possible for say small air craft?
A rough number is that there's a voltage of 100 volts for every meter of height through the atmosphere. And that varies depending on all sorts of things: nearby objects, humidity, air density, wind, ... So you'd need a tall aircraft to get the voltage. Then there's the question of how much charge is in the air, which also varies. That's extremely small. From Feynman's Lectures, volume II, 9-2, the current density (charge moving under the influence of that voltage) is around 10 micro micro amps crossing each square meter parallel to the earth. So I'd say it wouldn't work for a small aircraft.
Wow, very nice and clear explanation.
But where does the ion later go to, does it receive an electron from the -ve electrode (with large surface area) to become neutral, or does it go along with the other atoms?
Thanks. I'm glad you liked it.
Not always, but yes, sometimes the ion makes it to the -ve electrode to become neutral. Some don't though and you end up with ionized air.
@@RimstarOrg Okay Thanks
Thanks
Excellent explanation! Does this create ozone or any other dangerous gases while it's working?
Ionization created using high voltage can produce ozone. My lifter work at around 25,000 volts and that's high enough to produce ozone. So yes, it does.
cool thanks
Does the thin wire need to be bare, or can you use something like enamel insulated wire? Thanks.
Due to the strong electric field around the wire, the thin enamel coating will likely breakdown but if it does, it'll likely be in one spot. Once corona is leaking out of that spot, the electric field overall will be weaker and it won't be emitting in other places. That's my guess anyway. It likely won't fly. There are tricks for removing enamel from wire though. Do a search for how to remove enamel from wire.
Can you do a video on multi stage ionocraft lifters?
Have you ever measured the pull when the lifter is active...does the size (dimensions) work better or increase lift the smaller the distance is between he sides of the equilateral triangle? Do the sides have to be rolled towards the inside or can the be either direction? Does the height (from top to bottom) matter as well, the higher the height of the AL the more lift... I've got so many questions on what the variables are....
shaun adlesperger A very long time ago I did these tests for the pullrimstar.org/sdprop/testrigs/shielded_scale.htmbut the only variable I tested was the affect on voltage. Higher voltage meant more lift. But I suspect a smaller and smaller distance will increase lift, but only until you start sparking, in which case it'll stop flying.The sides can be rolled in either direction, it doesn't matter. Just minimize the sharp edges at the top of the foil.The height of the foil only matters if it gets so short that the bottom edge starts acting like a top edge and you now have a sharp edge near the top, negating the fact that you rolled the real top edge. But that'd have to be pretty short.
Could draw power from a tesla coil? scale thrusters down to nano and give more thrust per area? Make thrust vector more efficient? Allow for localized drone flight? Would spinning add benefits?
No, unfortunately it needs DC and a tesla coil puts out AC. Shrinking it down to nano size is an interesting idea I hadn't thought about before. You'd still need the high voltage in order to break down the air.
Dude.
Unbelievably well explained.
You're the next Bill Nye ; )
David Hart Nye is a hack
The movie star?
Nye doesn't know shit
what if you had a flat aluminum surface and above you had parallel line wire will it have more lifting power
No, it wouldn't work. You need the jet of air to continue downward. With a flat aluminum surface, the downward jet would collide with the flat surface and push it back down.
So does this have spacecraft use? Is it usefull for long distance travel? And most important does it have speed ? (my thoughts are it uses more energy than it produces,but i find it really cool :D)
Ion propulsion has been used by NASA on some spacecraft, though they do it a little differently. Since there's no air in space they carry along xenon gas. In that case it's actually used for really long distances. They're able to run it at low thrust for long periods of time, building up speed slowly, but eventually getting up to very high speed. As for the design in this video, it also of course would require the spacecraft to carry along a gas as the propellant. But I don't know if it's any better than the design that NASA uses. And it definitely uses more energy than it produces - my understanding is that everything does since there are always losses.
If use in a exotic pc cooling system.. Could this damage your parts?
I don't know. It does produce a lot of ions which means it might electrically charge things. That might cause a problem.
Thank you! Long time I thought that propulsion in the lifter is caused by some mysterious force. Now I have one less unexplained physical phenomena:)
hi I have a voltage of 1000 kv. Do i make it with the same technique? What should be the safety precautions i should take?
Are you talking about making the lifter?Are you sure you don't mean 1000 v? That's 1 kv. 1000 kv is 1,000,000 v.
If you meant 1000 v then that's not enough. You need around 25,000 v for the lifter. You also need current somewhere near 1 milliamp.
If you meant 1,000,000 v then it's too much for this design of lifter. It would just create sparks between the wire and the foil. You'd have to design something else.
He's probably building a real Enterprise ;)
Would This same experiment work in space?
Hello, how many voltage is required to lift the lifter and why is ion propulsion effective when it requires heavier energy source (Lifter for example requires that heavy high voltage machine)? Awesome video by the way!
Thanks! My 2 gram lifter lifts off with around 26kV and around 275 microamps. By effective I assume you mean practical or useful. Other than for fun science projects these lifters aren't effective. However, ion propulsion is used for spacecraft where it's okay if they take a long time to get up to a high speed. NASA has used it for some deep space exploration missions and I think Europe is also working on that.
Is the electric wind sufficient to lift the lifter ? One thing is to prop the enterprise suspended to a crane and that doesnt move so fast, another thing is to have the sufficient amount of force applied on the lifter to couter his weight ... some mesures ?
what would happen if you sealed both sharp and mooth in a vacume sealed tube filled with hydrogen or hydrogen choride? think it would explode or do you think it would show it plama more easily and inhance the proton transfer abillitys between the sharp and smjooh objects? would here be an ozone discharge?
/
shaun adlesperger I don't know. :) I've only worked with air.
Hopefully we get to see this demonstrated with graphene at some point.
10/10
If controlling this would be erratic, that just means you have to think bigger and smarter!
First we have to solve the problem with energy.
If this craft can bend the air around it, I wouldn't be surprised if it could do exactly the same in space as well.
Enough power and we could very well be up and away in a flash with near light speed, isn't this how fast atoms travels?
The posibillity of this making every one of us able to understand and create our own craft, is huge.
This makes all the rambling about UFO's even more likely as well, because those who understand, must have made their own craft already. We are on to something good, I know that much.
nice vd its give me an idea
im curious what is the lowest amount of power needed to create lift and what is the max? does that amount differ between how far the distance is between the "sharp" and "smooth"? can the "smooth" end be covered on the opissite side of the "sharp" object?
does the gap between the smooth and sharp need to be contained air or does there need to be air flow?
im very curious about this and any questions that you feel like answering would assist me greatly.
shaun adlesperger For my lifter, the minimum voltage is around 26kV but I don't know the minimum current due to the limitations of my meter, but it's somewhere just over 250 microamps. You can see the measurements in my video here ua-cam.com/video/LOGAaObsN4g/v-deo.html. The min and max are really dependent on the distance between the sharp and smooth electrodes. I've never looked for what the max is. The greater the distance the higher the voltage you'll need. Yes, the smooth end can be insulated but you must allow air to flow. The gap can be blocked somewhat since the electric field is actually larger than the gap size.
Hi! Great job!
I have a question. It's about the part at 5:54
If the negative is connect with the sharp object, you said there are some diffences what happens. What are the differences?
Thanks
And Great Job!
excristao I can't go through all the details in a comment but it starts near the sharp object again since that's where the electric field is strongest, except electrons are stripped off the atoms in the air and repelled instead of attracted. A full description can be found here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge#Mechanism_of_corona_discharge
RimstarOrg
When the sharp is positively charged then positive ions are repelled and cause de air go down or something like this. But when the electrons are repelled insted, the air go down too?
excristao Yes, the electrons collide with other molecules on the way down and ultimately cause air molecules to go down too.
RimstarOrg
Thanx.
Great videos and support.
A week ago I saw your videos about ion propulsion. On monday I shared with my students :)
Great explanation but I have a few questions.
1.) Is the propulsion activated by the positively charged ions that are headed back to the positive source after collision with the neutral atoms?
2.) If the fields were reversed, how will that affect the atoms in order to get the same result?
Thanks.
1) Yes. That collision is what pushes on the electric field that the positive ions are a part of. That's what causes the propulsion.
2) It's too much detail for a comment but if the fields were reversed then the details would be a little different but the effect and the direction of the motion would be the same.