Nemesis Reacts to Alois Tweet about WHY Toplane is NOT BROKEN 🤔🧐
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
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Toplane is way too reliant on matchups. Doesn't matter how good of a player you are, some matchups are mathematically made for you to lose.
this is something non toplaners dont understand, it literally decides everything. And if you do fine but even get ganked once/weaksided in a REALLY bad matchup already, you just lose the game
yes and no, otp know how to play against counterpicks look at alois, he otp riven and enemy picking malphite also counter riven and he still wins
or when i play jax into illaoi or quinn i never lose lane against them
bot lane is that but 100x worse@@odinxrk1424
This is how it has been for years. This is the lane we decided to play. Let us have our matchup dependent, island 1v1 lane.
Put a wall that breaks when herald spawns and if a Jungler jumps the walls they get executed
Executed IRL.... lol😂
i viewed the comment 100% expecting it to say IRL. i was right@@Troub4dour
INGAMEE INGAME
im ok with that since im karthus main so i can gank top without going there
If trump played league
BUILD THE WALL
The most soulcrushing part of this is that the jungle doesn't even have to kill anyone, doesn't even have to show up in the lane. The pathing alone is impactful enough to decide your lane for you.
Ive been calling the top lane "jg lane" for some time now.
its frustrating but its a team game and these situations come with that. If the player skill is the same what else should decide the lane? It has to be champions and other teammates.
The worst part about this comment section is some delusional player is gonna look at it and use it as an excuse as to why they ran it down 0/12
@@heeyyypeople 0/3/0 at 10 minutes when enemy top is 0/0/2 + 20cs + 2 plates is a jungle gap unless your jungle got all objectives.
0/12 at 10 minutes is always laners fault. Nothing worse than getting a 3/18 bot+supp on your promo game.
@@padillaj492 my point stands
While everything Alois says is true. He seemingly skips over the matchups, which Nemesis correctly catches. The most frustrating part about toplane is how heavily counter picking affects the lane.
In midlane you mostly play ranged vs ranged with multiple skillshots that are dodgeable. The lane is also rather short so even if your opponent freezes on you, you can always at least stay in XP range and usually get the cs as well. Not to mention because midlane is in the middle of the map it's way more likely for a jungler or support to help you out in a tough matchup.
Botlane is in theory similar to top, but in practice at least in soloQ. Your play and coordination with your team mate is way more important than matchups. Since if 2 champions focus 1 they should win...
In toplane you have no such interactions. The only way you can turn a losing matchup on it's head is if your opponent makes a mistake or if you get ganked. But at least in EUW soloQ junglers often act like toplane doesn't exist and even if they gank it they often times lack practice and gank on poor timing windows.
This is also why a lot of people complain about champions like Darius/Olaf/Riven. Those champions are extremely strong level 1 and continue having strong all ins through out the laning phase, which means that 99% of champs toplane just have to mitigate losses and hope their team carries them, which is extremely frustrating.
You forgot Sett, K'Sante and Gnar
Don't mind any of them. Gnar is not a traditional bruiser anyway. Sett is weak at the moment and K'Sante before the rework was fine, now it's pretty bs, but they nerfed him to the ground anyway.
That can be true but even in masters you feed your toplaner only for him to dive 4/0 and give a massive shutdown that you wasted a lot of time to put him ahead. I don't rely in one player, toplaners are all duelists who waste their advantage 99% of games they're winning. It's way better to deal w a fed enemy top in midgame then to waste your time there
@@squirrelhallowino29 I feel like you just tried your hardest to prove my point about junglers not understanding when and how to gank top? :D
CC
In my experience, in toplane the only jungler is enemy jungler
Yea, keep pushing without wards even your junglee warded enemies blue and you know he pathes towards top, you will get more enemy junglers.
@@theghostoftheuchiha1430 that's a scenario you created in your mind, mine was just a joke (even if it happened many times to face a flash-ignite rumble that was permapushing with no punishment)
@@matttake4852 it's not in mind it happens even in challenger, if you think I don't watch both top and jungle streamers you are mistaken.
@@matttake4852 tf blade is clear example dies like that in most games and flames his jungler
@@matttake4852 there are many reasons why rumble can't get punished and it's called riot balance team, he could easily kill you both if he gets fed early.
I agree that this is incredibly frustrating, but the nature of top lane at the moment is to become a monster In the mid late game. It’s really hard to justify not taking TP simply because of wave states in case of jungle pressure. It’s more reliable
depends on the champion really. Certain champions just need to take ghost, ignite, barrier in top lane and cant sacrifice flash to take tp
mid game only. even with the best items in the game bruisers become easily kited and dont have as much c utility or survivability as an actual tank and your damage becomes worthless lategame too
the case for flash ignite on camille in this match up is that you fucking lose if you don't have either flash or ignite
Camille Riven MU is a skill matchup and drututt being one of the best Camille in EUW could have won if his llilla didn't autopilot camp bot .
The point of ignite Camille is that if you wanna have any pressure in this matchup you need both flash and ignite , summs are chosen before game start but how can you expect your jg to weak side you with a fucking enchanter support in your botlane while Camille has one of the best setup in top ?
Nemesis has result based thinking because he doesn't play Camille but drututt as a child a confident player should take ignite .
Now you can argue that trusting your teammates is a mistake so he should have taken ignite and i would respond that it's Riot fault for not implementing easier ways to communicate with our teammates .
@@harrysliyoko8809avg silver opinion are u d4 bro? Taking flash ignite is just losing yourself the game if anything goes wrong early with Camille’s wave clear
Toplane right now is literally just counterpick city and not trying to win, but seeing which one of the two of you loses less.
Honestly everything mentioned here is kinda the reason why most junglers become junglers in all elos lol. It's just so frustrating to not make that many mistakes but hard core lose simply because of jungler interaction. I rarely meet junglers who become junglers naturally the majority of the time the answer is. "I kept getting bad junglers and felt i could do better" lol.
Feel him talking about camille and ignite is irrelevant, for two reasons
1-you are demanding players to have high champion pools, and suggesting he should have one the hardest characters in the game in his list of options (Irellia). You shoulden't be punished this hard for not knowing every top laner. When the majority of top laners already have the more complicated kits and play styles. It's not like adc where if you know one adc you kinda know all adcs.
2-Even if he had Irellia in his pool, he would still be screwed here by kha zix good pathing and the bad pathing of his jungler
This isn't exactly it, the point is: Drututt walked into a matchup where he has waveclear disadvantage and did not take tp to mitigate it/didn't pick a champion with better waveclear, more comparible to Riven( in this case renekton or rumble for example). Drututt put himself in a non-counterplay position where he HAD to rely on competence of a random jungler to help him compete in wave management in a meta where dragons and getting more teammates ahead is usually the correct play. It was a bad choice in champ select and it cost him.
@@dominikkowalczyk3845I assume you realize the tradeoff of non-ignite Camille vs riven is you get hard outscaled after 6 and riven can find kill opportunities on you for free while you can't due to lack of ignite. any decision he could've made there had a theoretically terrible outcome and were both dependant on the jungler. if Camille falls behind a Riven, it's kinda screwed. ignite here is nearly mandatory, because you will most likely not be able to play safe enough to not die vs riven.
also alois would have proxy the 5th wave after crushing the 4th so irelia couldnt hardpush the 5th wave into alios turret. Nemsis forgot/ignored that fact
Nemesis face entire video be like: "Yeah yeah whatever.... Iam not even listening"
What Alois says is complete yapping, it's all emotional saying that his role is not broken and that the others are broken, average lol player response
It's like people who say no, my champion isn't broken, yours is, that's why I lost against you, azzap does it and nemesis does it.
@@sanctuary3551 But it's still true. Toplane has the least agency; They feel "oppressive" into other roles because most toplaners are designed to 1v1 and sometimes frontline. Not to mention is the role most affected by matchup, counterpicks, and is the only role where even 1 gank can lead to instant loss of the lane and make you irrelevant for 20 minutes.
Nemesis try not to disagree with everyone while believing the same thing , challenge impossible
Almost like nuances exist and not everything someone says is correct or true but other parts of what they are saying can be correct at the same time. Literal single digit IQ take here thinking that it's either one person is 100% right or 100% wrong.
@@YuYuYuna_ He says the same things on stream and in his videos but when somebody else says the same thing its always met with some critisism , even if it was exactly the same
example?
Some Camilles run TP-Ignite for this reason. You can easily lose lane without teleport.
But without tp u lose like this. Without ignite u cannot touch wave before 3 and u will die lvl 1 under tower to level 3 kha riven. And then u cant even to for stacked wave because u will die second time. Flash tp or flash ignite or tp ignite causes similar results in this scenario.
He needs flash vs Riven for outplay, and Q because she stacks conq super fast and to prevent triumph from saving her in case of a dive with a level 6 prio
People saying drututt did 0 mistakes is just insanity when he goes ignite conqueror and sits under turret when every single lane will lose in 5 min
@@redesu you can read what the first comment said, he explained it really well why it really doesnt matter what drututt takes.It is really a jungle gap on this one, also camille is shit, so jng gap and dogshit champ gap
how bad you gotta be to lose to level 3 gank? It's the more telegraphed gank in the fucking game. Maybe learn lane control before you play ranked ?@@m3zuss
Not going ign on Camille against Riven makes you instantly lose.
That’s not how it works at all
@@bariskaraulus6084 explain now
@@alucard3294 Since riven has ignite, even if she kills camille but her wave is bad you'll get more out of it with tp. So you can always play around it like that.
@@bariskaraulus6084 It has nothing to do with the champ, not going ign on Camille against riven makes you instantly lose.
great explanation, now I understand, thanks
Alois talk so fast that the sped up video of him talking sounds normal to me.
that literally makes no fucking sense you clown, if they talked fast and WERE SLOWED DOWN it would sound normal... fucking what bro?? do you even understand words??? i'm literally actually dumb founded rn by that statement. what the actual fk are you doing man
and i pray to god those 2 likes were laughing at how stupid what i just pointed out is, not that they're also SO dumb they read that and were like HUHHHH YUP SOUNDS LIKE HOW REALITY WORKS TO ME!
I mean this is going to somewhat be fixed next season since voidgrubs will incentivize junglers to path to top
It won't tho. You path bot so your top camps respawn just ahead of the first void grubs.
@@aruy1639 That is exactly right. Also, voidgrubs does not help you team fight or win your lane match up. There is now a case for bot lane to now start at top lane for the first 5 minutes and swap after voidgrubs.
I played in pbe for 2 days. I'm sorry nothing will incentivize your jungler to come top side unless you're premade. Theirs will though.
@@aruy1639 depends on your clear speed tbh, if you clear pre 2:55 you wanna path top for 2nd camps to spawn before voids
That's exactly what he is complaining about. Junglers pathing more often towards top will influence top lane matchups even more next season, so what do you mean it's going to be fixed?
This is a jungle/counter problem. Realistically, if even in skill toplane is more of a farm sim depending on mid/jgl presence.
It's almost like jungle is a big impactful role for every lane
Most impactful on top tho, a lillia will never kill a midlaner unless they are autoing turret bc lane is so small and bot side support can just die for you and adc is fine which barely effects the game at all
@@imhaiden8464 What if bottom double kill or midlane turret gone
More impacts than a top demolition
@@imhaiden8464this is so cap lmao what. Tell me you're silver without telling me you're silver
Main strength of camile is gank setup if your jg paths away from her then her main strength becomes useless
Only post 6
@@brunozoller4087nah, Camille E is the longest basic spell engage ability in the game, and if you don't miss W slow it's an easy kill if the jungler is nearby
@@tito.serena there is still much better gank setup than Camille pre 6
@@brunozoller4087who? Jax? And that's all?
@@baptistecochennec5956 renekton, ornn, aatrox Kled, tahm kench, sett, Sion, kannte,
this guy : yapping
baus : iam gonna die this wave 😎
When the Graves lv 2 invades the Evelynn, when the enemy team is not afk and gets vision, when the top laner is at your red to invase than tp top with a free kill
You can say both toplaners opting into ignite means it's very snowbally (=once one of them gets a lead it gets worse and worse with time), but the issue alois is talking about it's that druttut didn't make mistakes for that initial lead to created by his opponent, and also riven didn't make anything special to create it aswell. You can consider the choice of ignite very reckless because once you die you can't tp, lose lane control etc... but you can't think it's ignite's fault here, even with tp he would have been forced to back and tp to get back in lane, his opponed would have caught the wave in time and nautilus would have roamed anyways.
In conclusion:
-the choice of ignite was taken by both toplaners (even starting ground)
-the ignite itself didn't start the lead for riven in any way.
-the tp wouldn't have denied the lead, it could have saved a few Cs and exp, that's all
Toplane is very coinflip, not because all toplaner try to 1vs1 all the time recklessly, but because you are very dependent on your team, at least at decently high level. Idk about mid to low tiers
Mid to low tier is the same, but because the other dude in top lane is just as dumb as you
Yeah i agree.
Nemesis is correct in saying that not having TP is an issue but the truth is that Top being a lane dependent on bounces and wave states means that the same exact scenario would've presented itself 2 minutes later when both junglers did their 3rd full clear and Camille's tp is on CD.
It's just the mechanics of the role. Regardless of what summoner you take.
But yeah, please take TP, guys. It's just better.
The counter matchups feel so brutal in toplane as the champ pool is extremely diverse. When I play mid, I play Morgana, I can safely clear the wave with W against any champ, and roam and support rather than having to win duels and constantly play off my wave like in top.
With that being said, I play Darius and Voli top which is feast or famine, and Morgana mid which is super-low economy, but I think in general the game plays out like what I described
who tf plays morgana mid 💀
@@mikezacowski8078 They do can you read
@@mikezacowski8078 I sometimes played her to counter some champions when I climbed to diamond (my winrate with her was 100% after 6 games). She can lane safely, very fast waveclear, has a lot of cc and decent damage. You basically use her as a counterpick and win your lane, then give that advantage to your teammates by roaming and trying to engage in teamfights. But the key point is, most midlaners have never played against morgana mid so they don't know how to deal with her and usually underestimate her damage. Not only Morgana, I also had some success with these champions using that principle: AP Nasus mid, AP MF mid, Gunblade Teemo, AP Rakan mid, AP tryn top, AP Karma mid, Viktor bot,
@@mikezacowski8078 Me cuz I suck at mid
@@emmamillstein411 i love AP MF but the constant nerfs to her ratios has hurt so much, it feels unplayable now compared to a year or so ago :( literally falls off so so so so so soooooooooooooooooooooooooo insanely hard late game compared to if you go leth/crit she stays 3 shotting people even when they're near full build at 18 and 1 tapping with ult if they don't move, even with full AP(~900+) her ulty hits for like 2k less dmg and her main early game win button in E does like 1/4 of people's health >.
Unfortunately league of legends is a team game, and if this interaction causes this type of problem, then its up to the junglers to know their match ups really well or for the top to explain to them what they need and then the junglers basically just hover and make sure nothing crazy happens in the lane.
I know junglers like being bot side almost all the time and getting those drags, but as a top laner atm, you could win so many games by going top for the first round of ganks and making sure he gets a lead, and then let him play island smart and then collect later drags.
Yeah thats why jungle is so broken.
>.> all the roles are important, thats why its a team game... lol @@m3zuss
Yeah as a jungler I noticed toplaners who have shit matchups and only get ahead because of my early gank usually will die and start losing again at somepoint anyway, so its a lot more reliable to just spam gank bot and get drakes, because realistically spam ganking top is not a good strategy to win you the game.
not to mention the mentality and ego of an adc that doesn't get perma ganked while the enemy zac is jumping from drake pit to their tower every 30 secs. personally id prefer an angry top laner than an angry support and adc.
@@Krasnal428
@@Krasnal428 Pretty wild that ganking top lvl 3-4 once = spam ganking in your mind
Sort of true,everyone is affected by weakside(mid a bit less).Top has the most resources in the game and the champions that can abuse them.Map impact is less but that’s the tradeoff.
Toplaners when the enemy nexus doesn’t insta explode from champ select
The TLDR version is jungle diff. This happens in bot lane a lot too. Especially if their jung is ganking and yours is full clearing. The adc also is tied to the lane more then most roles because marksmen champ provide very little in a roam where as supports can provide a lot. That wasn’t a top lane exclusive problem. That’s a jungle problem
2 vs 3 is easier to survive than 1 vs 2
@@olafthemoose9413 not true in all cases, but idk why you even want to differenciate, like, if we both have the same problem, why try to compete instead of cooperate?
Adcs and toplaners two similar roles that suffer from the same problem, lane too easy to gank and depend entirely on supp and jungle to win it, unless there's like 2 leagues of difference between the former. It all comes down to junglers being able to keep up with xp even if they path poorly and decide to spend 1m ganking a lane. Like lillia in this game shouldnt be rewarded for playing such a trash gameplan while toplane being punished for it. And it could have perfectly been the other way around if lilia decided to path to toplane and kha to bot, it would have been bot the one to pay inmense price for no fault of its own and you wouldnt get compensation topside cuase lilia has just been wasting her time. Like 4 camps into scruttle into 2 camps that's just disgusting.
Well, at least you topalners will get a more secure lane next season, still very divable though.
@@MrBigPauly1 1 vs 2 one party has twice the amount of resources. 2 vs 3 on party has 1.5 times the amount of resources. If you see league as a game of resources a 2 vs 3 is easier to play than a 1 vs 2. Simple maths.
@@MrBigPauly1 The thing is, bot is a lane 2v2 so sometimes is going to be more complicated for a jungler to gank specially if enemie bot has an aggressive set up like draven/leona, plus, freezing a lane in bot is way difficult cause bot are ranged champions and support can help to unfreeze the lane...in the other hand, is way easier for a jungler kill the enemy top in a 2v1 unless your laner is a kayle and enemie has idk ialloi or darius..... anyway, its way easier to kill darius in a 2v1 than trying to gank a leona/draven... moreover in case one of the top laner freeze the wave this is just a death sentence for the top laner... theres no one that could help to break the freeze and lets be honest a jungler will not help him. to break the freeze never....
@@olafthemoose9413 i know that argument, but that argument is not an end all argument, gl diving an illoi or a darius, renekton, riven, camile, the list goes on, meanwhile bot diving a sona ezreal etc is not as hard. Point is, we dont need to argue about this, we all agree jungle and supp have too much control over who wins adc/top, right? Like i play both roles, i main adc, but i also play top as second role, and i know how fucked top could get if you fall behind in a bad match up and u get no help while the enemy gets 3 ganks, i know. I just said there are cases and cases and its not a competition to see who is screwed more, if you feel like torturing yourself, go play adc with a random supp in normals, its miserable. Totally unplayable. Supp gap is 90% of adc gap, and that just feels bad. Unless its supp and jung gap, then its 200% of adc gap, you just watch how u get dove undertower and ur janna r's when u are already dead, its even more fun :)
Point is, both adc and top can be unplayable through no fault of your own, all due to jung and supp, so punishing those roles for the terrorism should be in both top and adc's benefit, so why argue who has it worse.
Druttut choose to play camille ignite top, yes.
But the fact junglers influence top lane summoner spells while the counterpart not being true kinda proves Alois's point.
His claim is, "other roles have more impact than top lane", and it is true.
Top is broken (in a bad way). I have 0 effect on bot lane or dragons. The 2 biggest factors in winning the game. The teleport nerf has removed top lane from the game.
It literally got buffed, keep coping shitlord
Top laners shouldnt be able to TP on my lvl 4 adc while they are lvl 6
@@DispelLoL Your top laner could do the same. Your opponent has no more advantage than you do.
I roleswapped to support soon after those TP changes were implemented. The role has no agency on the map until youre an Aatrox with 2 items and a 3 lvl advantage. Every other role in the game has a more rewarding first 15 minutes.
oh yes, im botlane, im trading, im about to win but guess what, MY TOPLANER LOST LANE AND HAD TO TP BACK, SO I LOSE BOT WOW, yeah bro that is for sure not toxic gameplay and for sure not exactly why the guy was bitching for 9 min straight, its good when its on others, not when its on you i guess @@herpderp66
top is just a champ diff. if its a big counter the enemy can be 30% as good as you and still win, since most of the time theres no counterplay.
Toplane is worse mid. There is nothing else left to say.
i switched to mid whilst playing same top champs i always did
won 9 games in a row immediately XD could be a fluke but either way.
9 ranked games in a row, lost an aram or 2 in between
This guy really just explain for 15 minutes that if you are same skill lv as your opponent you rely on your team to be the difference? That is always going to be true for any lane
yes and now how many combos of jng bot sup vs bot sup can be a fight where even in that 3v2 the 2 getting ganked can kill 3 for 0 even with every player being same skill and assuming no mistakes (and many more combos can maybe trade sup for adc or just get a kill and get out or zone and wait for jng if its around)
while top laners can do so has well like yone aatrox and so on that still requires one mistake from the jng or top for them to lose 2v1
mid is more of a maybe's has many combos of mid vs jng mid and even 2v2's or 3v3's even 2v3's can happen with many having options to opt out of fights and room for outplays given the champs in mid tend to be very squishy with high burst and some form of self peel
so while u can say its true for any lane its just that top is very pulverising in that u need to be better then the enemy or u have not a single opportunity the moment jng's are going mixed pathing's and is fully out of your control unless u do like nemesis talked about with counter pushing the 4 wave crash to keep it from pushing back into him but thats not something u can do with every champ so its a privilege relegated to counter pick (or being the better skilled player but we are assuming even skill)
@@darkumineru1681 A botlane 3v2 never goes in favor for the 2 people if no one does a mistake.
I get the point he is trying to make about toplaners getting more fucked over than other lanes by jgl. However the isolated statement of "we are both same skill, his team played worse, he lost --> toplane is weak" just makes 0 sense.
A lane is strong if "im much more skilled than enemy = I win" and imo toplane is very strong for that reason atm. If you are better than enemy top you can create larger leads/gain more gold+xp than anywhere else.
no he is saying that toplane at equal level of skill, is a stale lane where nothing happens therefore it's impossible to carry games where you don't receive help, and he is proving a point that the jg role is more important to the toplaner than the toplaner itself
im glad we have so many experts on the chat
You are correct, but you cant dismiss his point entirely. I am a toplane main. I have very little impact on my games until I began to main Shen. And his impact only exists because Shen has the best ult in the game pretty much lol, It's a second tp. Because it allows me to be other places I can push things on the map without giving tower. Riot needs to think of something that makes Toplane more important. As it is, most junglers are JUST gonna play around bot, not only because Dragons but also because the ADC, they JUST 75 percent of the time even in high elo play around botlane and only think of top when bot is hard struggling and they cant do anything down there... Even then, by that point junglers pray upon the possibility they can push a lead mid. I stand by the idea ive always had since the alcoves were included: Put a new jungle monster in toplane that sits in the alcove, spawns at 5 minutes, is about as tough as herald and gives 100 gold to the entire team once someone kills it. only spawns once during the laning phaze. Boom, what do you have? An incentive to be in top lane for the Top laners most crucial timeframe, the first 10 minutes, that doesn't break the entire game. You can bounce back from every enemy getting a hundred gold. And it doesnt even need to be that! Just dear god, riot, give these guys an incentive to look at top lane. Herald isnt even a good enough reason, as most junglers can solo or get Mid support for it. Do junglers roam top? Yes. Do they ever gank? DUDE, get real, most junglers, especially low elo junglers, run to their deaths to save bot lane before they rush to a perfectly gankable fucking top lane freeze ON GOD.
I mean if you didn't have impact until playing shen maybe you are not good at other toplaner
@@baptistecochennec5956 Or maybe win lane lose game? Top lane has very little impact. Insulting me does little to change that fact. You can do everything right, get a massive lead, and still lose it all to one mistake which more often then not will not be recoverable without the Jungler that, you guessed it, you will be very very very unlikely to get. I dont play shen because I cant impact games otherwise, I play shen because it is easier to impact games. It isnt 1v9 simulator, its a team based game. I adopted a team based gameplan to get my lp, because in the end, I am not getting the jungler so I may as well go to him. Which is more impactful? Having presence in other lanes as early as level 6? Or dancing 1v1 like a nerd for 15 minutes hoping your team doesn't run it down in the meantime? if your only reply to my comment is to attack me, as opposed to any sensible arguments to the contrary of my statements, then I dont believe you are here to be constructive. In which case, get bent, your not adding to the discussion.
@@jacobburns7742 I am not insulting you lmao if you are not able to make a "carry" top works maybe you are just not good at that and maybe you are very good at being a supportive toplaner lmao why everything should always be an attack. I have consistently an above average winrate at the carry top I play like Jax Darius olaf things like that but I'm not able to make a tank or a non splitpush champ nearly as well. It's just that for my elo I know how to lane, snowball, flank and split good enough to win but I can't do the same with other champ. I mean first in low elo you never lose all your advantage based on 1 mistake even in chall it doesn't happen a 100% of the time and 2 you dont need a jng to get an advantage especially in low elo again
Like you complain about jng not ganking a frozen toplane but most of my kill happen before the jng can be in my lane. Again I'm not saying I'm some kind of toplane god I just know how to play well enough for my elo a playstyle
@@jacobburns7742 Thing is, there is a siilar issue botlane. Botlane(ADC/APC) has no impact either, because of how overtuned top/jg are. You're praying for your team not to rundown, basically every botlaner does the same. Praying for its topside not to rundown. In League soloQ, the main issue is omega broken champions & items + zero teamgame. Everybody does random fights and feed their opponent in 1v1 / 2v2, then flame the whole team for their mistakes. And most of them feed because you die so fast against super strong champion doing everything far too well.
The easy way to fix that is not to add anything in the game. It is to eventually, finally and hopefully nerf damage in this game so it actually playable and enable some kind of balance. Then, you make the objectives (voidgrubs/dragons/nashor/herald) so damn strong that it requires the whole team to contest them. And once you get the, their effect is good enough to justify teamfights and teamplay around them that some random Yorick doesn't negate it by splitpush 2 paper tower in 15seconds sidelane.
That way, you fix both issue. No more islands, more teamplay early on, no more guys feeding their asses off for the hidden cameras and with global nerf, you'll be able to play the game for more than 3seconds and eventually survive the 5sec CC chain. But well, it ain't happening anytime soon. League is just a soloQ let me show you my mechanics game.
bot laners talking about the "horrible freezes on bot lane" meanwhile they have a babysitter that can hold their waves, so delusional, adc mains being the most impactful role in 2 season in a row, but "adc build only damage how the fuck im getting killed by the top laner, i only eat 3 of his 4 abilities 😭😭😭😭😭"
Its not surprising at all, 97% of the player base is below diamond, u can only have opinions if ur above master+
I agree with you about the adc being a very strong role (especially with the point of the adcs not dodging a fucking ability and crying about how the 10/0 tank deals so much damage), but unfortunately you can't ignore how ridiculous the top champions are, alois accepts that, and druttut constantly cries about the same thing, toplane champions and their items are ridiculously broken to the point of making them exodia
@@sanctuary3551 The champs, i rather have a 20 0 adc vs a 20 0 top laner, the adc will just one shot him
Toplane in low elo is great though. I feel rewarded for good play but punished so damn hard when i lose and its really sad when im perma dove in counter matchup and nobody helps cover turret or me. Then they get up on a whole item and i just wanna die. More fun doing that to them.
Who dives in low elo?
@@jackspinner4727who thinks plays are good in low elo? They all team death match all day
@@WelfareCenter yep exactly. I’m in like plat 1 2 or 3 and have gotten dove like once.
@@jackspinner4727 Plat 1-2-3 aka what was gold before. No shit they won't tower dive you they can barely keep themselves from drooling over their keyboards while playing.
@@YuYuYuna_ haha true.
Alois acts liek most of these issues are toplane exclusive, when tey re not every other role is affected by jungle just as much. Botlane can get solo lost by jungle pathing too. And while bot doesn t have counterpicks, it is disproportionately affected by gaps in supports and Jungle too. Mid might be the least affected role sure. but it s still a 2v2 with jungle. Let s not ignore the absolute massive impact toplane has in the mid and late game. Hullbreaker automaticalyl draws 2 players pressure to you even after losing lane
absolutely true and my thinking , he was making more of a point of how impactful jgl is more than " how top is balanced" the point is jgl can ruin everyones life , and toplaner champ are still relatively broken mid to late game
well the difference is your sup can just ditch the lane completely and become the 2nd jungler 😂 as a top laner you might as well starts ganking enemy fountain if this happen
@@vandillejones if support ditches the lane they re griefing the adc and makign them useless for the rest of th egame, it s not like there is no trade off
@@vandillejones In low elo sure, if this is Diamond+ and the enemy bot isn't brain damaged they will walk past the wave and depending on wave state will deny your ADC farm and exp while freezing or fast push the wave and dive your ADC. Even if they trade 1 for 1 their support for your ADC it is always worth because they would be denying your ADC farm and exp.
to be honest, i dont know what to say because i slept through the video
He said all that to say jungle influences top hard.
hes an educator lol its kinda habit for him
he also is saying because of the matchup he can do whatever he wants, counter pick is disugsting top unless you pick for fun renekton
I was reminded of my old english teachers lmao
being forced to take tp is another problem in itself its XD moment.
This is kinda the same as saying that junglers being forced to take smite is a problem. I can't see in a million years why that would be such an issue, it is simply the optimal summoner spell in most games, nerfing or removing it, or anything like that would only worsen everything.
i am also convinced tp is bait in low elo where u can just pick a champ that can roam a little better with ghost then have way more impact in most team fights
teleport is the best spell in the game only losing to flash obviously.
tp is so hard nerf to the point that some games i only use it twice or three times @@squirrelhallowino29
tp is the best summoner in the game besides flash, there is rarly point as a top/mid to not take tp
you can't expect to be impactful early game as a ignite Camille with no jungler
He's right, but he's only telling one side of the story.
He's not talking about the games where Jungle gets perma invaded because 3 enemy lanes have prio. He's not talking about the games where ADC loses because there is literally a second person in the lane who is individually outclassed. He's not talking about the games where Mid is dealing with ganks and roams from literally every angle from minute 1... with only a single ward to defend themselves.
If you want to cherry pick an example of an unplayable game, you can find it in every role. That's not a top lane thing. That's a League of Legends thing. Is it worse for top? To an extent... perhaps yes. But that's the double edged sword of Top lane right now. It's high risk for sure... but if you outclass your lane opponent, I would argue the carry potential surpasses every other role in this meta. And that's not just in solo queue either. Just watch Zeus - it's even evident in the World Finals.
the reward of winning toplane is less than mid or bot, if u win bot you get drakes if you win mid you get to one shot botlane or invade jg, if you in top you get towers only teleport is 0 impact until 14 minutes, a toplaner can farm and father enough gold and exp advantage only on the premise that his team can survive and he can survive until then.
Riot gave toplane champions broken items(sunderer,hullbreaker etc) to compensate for the lack of agency that toplane has. The carry potential that toplane has is solely determined by those items, but the fundamental issues of the role remains.
People should stop bringing up proplay as an example; yes the potential, in a perfectly matched game where everyone knows what they are doing is highest in toplane right now, but solo que so much different than pro. In soloque you can leave lane at 14 minutes and look at your botlane being 0/10, having lost all dragons and pretty much having lost the game, before you get to the point where you can carry.
@@ghostliithose games are mostly unwinnable no matter what other role you play though
@@shbh0the reward for winning toplane is being 3-4 levels up on enemy jungler and their bot while getting 1k free gold on turrets. If you cant carry off that you are just bad
toplane was always about just surviving and holding your lane and scaling into the midgame. the real problem i see is turret plating on top makes it so you get snowballed like crazy if you fall behind, you not only lose a wave but also 1 or 2 platings and then people want to dive and kill you more for more platings and to snowball you out. turret plating was only implemented for midlane because roaming was a fixed meta and midlaners completly abandoned their lanes with super mobile champs to perma roam because losing turret wasnt a big deal. but plating on top and bot was a mistake and ruined both roles by making snowballing way to bad and early game laning too important which is mostly dictated by matchups and not by skill.
Too bad that your role is unfun and all but it doesnt justify the failure of top laner balancing. Too many of these characters are still brainless stat checks and I dont think the new items are going to change this at all next season. You can be 3-7 and still run down 13-2 adc's simply because of the nature of adc randomly being forced 2-3 levels down and splitting putting you astronomically ahead in xp.
Im not saying the saying the role is broken, im not saying the champs are broken, but I AM saying you dont get to justify not having fun on the island role by making sure no one else gets to have any fun simply because of your champ, let alone the items designed for your champs.
Just about every last item based meta we've had over the last couple years has been top lane tanks and bruisers. Sunfire, Sunderer, Stride, Gore, Chemtank, Ravenous, even Radiant Virtue had a stint. What other items have been turbo busted outside of those? Its pretty limited to duskblade and ghostblade.
They turned Kraken and Shieldbow into Legendaries this season because they were too unhealthy. They changed Galeforce mythic passive. They reworked ghost because adcs were abusing it, which of course hits toplaners the hardest, as usual.
@@Jundsac Kraken and Shieldbow were turned into legendaries because they sucked as mythics, outright thats all that was and we know it. Those items blew as mythics and Galeforce was the only one that truly got changed for being too strong.
All ghost did was make it so adc's couldnt be mindlessly ran down for free, and god forbid that role is allowed to have any personal agency near the literal predator champs of toplane.
@@Vaestus Kraken sucked as a mythic? Kraken is objectively worse as an item now than it was before. You are delusional on that point. The rest I agree with but saying Kraken was a shit mythic is just false. It was objectively the best mythic for the majority of ADC champs while it was a mythic. Outside of fringe cases like Aphelios and Jhin liking galeforce it was Kraken.
@@YuYuYuna_ That was sheerly from lack of any other better option, which is why ADC mythics got completely reworked unlike every other role, because their choice in mythics specifically just sucked and were very limiting. It was less about the stats of the items and more just about how limiting it was for their build paths.
I didnt mean it was "kraken is a weak item" i said outright that Kraken sucked as a mythic. I say its infinitely better now as a legendary because it doesnt lock you out of mythics like gale or rage. The biggest proof of this is Yasuo, how he was forced to pick between it or shieldbow.
Kraken works a million times better as a legendary than as a mythic and you cant convince me otherwise. Its passive just was NOT that good to justify it. It was picked because it was the best ADCs had for their offensive mythic slot.
Its not random, they share xp you dumb fuck, and adc can still do damage even if 0 10, if they have farm and items they still can do damage, top laners cant
The classic non toplane playing person's response to people bringing this up, you can't make this shit up. Hashinshin had been talking about this problem for years prior to this and people like Nemesis still just try to paint it as it's always the player's fault"Oh you took ignite" "Oh you picked Camille" like no bro, it doesn't matter the champ or the summoner, neither of those things would've changed this interaction at all.
That's the entire point of the video he's making, yet these people just blatantly ignore the main aspect of the video because they can't accept that top lane is decided by the jungle. Mid you can roam, bot you scale into late game monster, jungle you can affect every lane for the first 10-15 minutes. Top you can't do shit, I shouldn't be relegated to having to take TP to even exist in the game, some champs can't do that like Darius and other champs rely on snowballing early to exist like Kled. So then what do top laners do, we just turn to hullbreaker slaves and are forced to split push the entire game because we can't do anything else. Then people complain about hullbreaker and split pushing so even the one thing we have left people just want removed.
It could have been riven vs riven with the same summs , runes and items. But it would end the same way just because of jg intervention.
Play a champ where you crash first 3 waves and then invade enemy jungle. Been loving that myself. Been ganking the gankers. I play Darius. I either get a kill lev 3 or they undertowee no flash. And I take it to their jungler
@@jackspinner4727 It wouldn't have mattered because the enemy jg would've been topside and you get collapsed on by riven and potentially the other mid laner and now you solo lose the game.
I play Darius and I do what you're saying, but the reason it works is usually because in lower elos people don't look out for stuff like that, but if the enemy team knows and pings it correctly and you get collapsed on, you're done. Darius can 1v2 1v3 but you need ult for the most part to do that effectively, crashing 3 waves you don't have ult yet.
You can’t really roam as mid anymore since they changed the wave speeds
@@obijuankenobi3814 yea true. I’m in lower elo so.
If you hard nerf jungle xp and gold, don't be surprised when junglers pick cc champs and just perma gank and ruin lanes every game. Invading is usually a waste of time
jg ruin lanes no matter what state their role is in, it's what their role is designed to do
@@nekedinu7210 this. it doesnt matter what kind of meta it is, junglers will always gank when its favorable for them. Spam gank meta, tank meta, powerfarming meta, counterjungling meta...it doesnt matter in the slightest.
Thats good though. 99% of junglers dont know matchups that are unwinnable this is when they should be ganking, but they dont and the game becomes much harder.
my issue is how often the enemy team sends 3 top and how often the 2 remaining enemies wipe my 4 allies on the other side of the map xdd
The issue is, while this might have been a "lost at champ select" game, but there are plenty of real picks that will just get diffed in lane without a real jungler making the lane playable.
learning league is great cuz every time i look up a vid on how to counter a tough top matchup the answer is get your jungler to do it lol
Ok i have a question. Why tf does he zoom in Twitter to see the video and not full screen it 😂
so we can see the chat and his cam for the youtube vid
@@dc7944 yeah but both are overlays. They are still visible if he full screens the vid (same as the ads and subs alerts)
probably fucks with his overlays in streamlabs if he goes fullscreen, mine used to@@jokerfever2590
@@jokerfever2590 Because if he fullscreens the twitter video the minimap will be covered by his webcam and slightly obscured by chat.
something something overlays get fked
i cant really weigh in, but as an adc it is very annoying winning lane and then losing cuz my top died 5 times in 1v1 and now i gotta kite a raid boss sett
Buy funny hammer item. There you go, there's your impact.
Druts playing Camille, this is more of a camille problem than a top problem.
Jax, renekton, Ornn, and most of the top lane field can get that wave in without issue.
Because drut is playing camile who has been gutted to rely on jg, having a jg that doesnt play for him hurts more
People are complaining that League is becoming a TEAM game. Back when dragon just gave tons of gold all that really mattered was mid+jung and botlane. In recent seasons mid+jung synergy became less important. Now that there are very important early objectives in baron pit the old recipe is back except this time its top and mid+jung. Every one has to move and help the other roles, but no one knows how to do that anymore. We all want to stand in our lane with horse blinders on.
In diamond I've seen bot lanes rotating to 2nd grubs and sending mid bottom to hold lane. Then resetting for next dragon. Rotations like these and new ideas in general are hard to pull off because no shorthand for them exists yet. Lack of voice chat option really fostering frustration during periods of growth like is happening now.
It is just never fun to meet a feed toplaner. In fact it is the worst. He will most likely be more tanky than you, deal more damage than you and often have a good amount of mobility as well. In mid to late in general what other role can even one v one a toplaner who is good in the game.
Toplaners when a team game isnt a 1 v 1 match *REEE shit game*
i like alois but it feels like he's trying so hard to cope in this vid, the reason why toplane is not broken while having overpowered champs and items is that 1/20 games both laners have same skill lvl and don't do mistakes so jg and supp decide the lane?? how abt us having higher lvl than everyone else just by existing and jg not being able to deal with us anymore cus they are 2-3 lvls below us and even if my laner dies 3-4times in lane he's still stronger than my teammates cus lvl and champ diff, idk i mained mid jg and top and games now are decided by the chad that no one can deal with and there is no excuse to that. btw if we cope with 'jg' then idk abt bot but i think midlaners suffer the most from jg supp impact but without toplane privileges that's why i swapped top personally with alois guides it feels so free.
Just a curious question of mine cause I never understood it. Why are Junglers 2-3 level‘s behind solo laner‘s at all times? Is it really a balancing reason because jungle does not even need to have so much less xp, also because after the second full clear you‘re still being level 5 with no ult so ganking will be hard because everyone else will be level already 7
@@husseinmoussa2947that’s probably a balancing choice by Riot. Being able to impact the entire map while having the same exp as a solo laner would be too much. You are not supposed to duel enemy solo laners , so the level difference is mostly compensated by number advantage. At the end of the day jungle is a pseudo-supporting role , if you play an actual carry jungle then this problem doesn’t really matter since you most likely want to scale and fight once your champ starts to spike.
It's intriguing (and understandable to an extent) to see the community listen, agree with, and even parrot the opinion of High Elo (Challenger) players. Both Challenger and Grandmaster players make up roughly 0.0315% of the population on EUW, meaning assuming a Ranked population of 5 million, they amount to 1,575 players...and that doesn't even account for the millions of players that never touch Ranked.
The combination of matchup mastery, build/rune optimisation, (and many other gameplay facets that high elo players excel at) is something you'll never experience (consistently) in your games. It's far more likely you encounter an unkillable Illaoi, or a ghosted Darius killing you with E-Q, or an Aatrox healing for half his HP after landing one Q.
For the "rest of us" (AKA 99.9685% of the player base), "Low Elo" players, Top lane champions and items (Bruiser/Tank) are overpowered. That is a fact. We see it in our games. We saw it during Worlds. Riot deliberately shifted the power budget to make the role satisfying to combat the lack of early-game agency. They did the same thing with Bot in Split I. I guess having a hard carry game every 10-20 games as a hard-stuck Bronze/Gold player keeps you engaged (and chasing the high of being important/the difference maker).
The situation is unlikely to change anytime soon cause the local gold for inner and inhibitor turrets is getting buffed (and nerfed globally). Want to uh, maybe guess which role takes more inner and inhibitor turrets more than some others combined? Yeah...You probably guessed correctly.
How did you get those numbers? EUW GM+C1 is exactly 800 slots in total, fixed and limited and that includes several people who have multiple accounts there so it's most likely under 600 actual players.
There are currently 2,746,912 ranked accounts on EUW, meaning accounts who have played their placements this split. Both of your numbers are way off, but one of those is literally always fixed so no clue how you came up with them.
to add to what you say: challenger solo queue is a bunch of individually good players playing in an uncoordinated environment. It's a very specific population of people experiencing problems. Proplay consists of very good players playing in a coordinated environment, so their issues are often completely different. Viability and how lanes feel to play is very different.
@@crysoarl7344 Very true. While jungle proximity is typically low in Pro-play (just like Solo Q), We see junglers gank all the time.
@@KillahEUreplied to you twice & my comment got deleted. gg
So how exactly does this lead to "Toplane is broken"
this gives more credits to jgl role 😂
Toplane is design as an island for champ that don't like group fight and champion that survives the lane well. That the whole point people are playing it. There are no point in changing into a copy paste lane.
Holy shit the double speed yaps on that bloke
You also get more XP and the champs usually played top are TUBO broken when ahead (which happens every game)
Ah yes turbo broken.
@@williamlindroos2250 Did you watch worlds? Aatrox tanking 5 ppl, yone killing towers in seconds, Camille doing 1k+ true damage every 3 seconds on Q. The list just goes on and on.
@@ChesterZirawin okey so,
Worlds in not the league of legends we play, its a different game.
Everychampion when fed is broken. and describing a champion as broken isnt hard.
What people fail to realize about bruisers and tanks is that they get FUCKED by CC and alot champions like ashe etc can fuck them up even without a support.
@@williamlindroos2250 The worlds was just an example since it's clear evidence you can see for yourself, but fine. Let's ignore that. "They get fucked by CC", and what champ doesn't? What class or character doesn't get fucked by CC? Difference is that they do insane damage while being harder to kill along with the fact that they are ahead of everyone else on the map simply by existing. What mid laner can do 1k true dmg every 4 seconds or has an ability that does 1k true damage that gives resets, or has an ability that can do 2k true damage (set W) on a BASIC ABILITY, or an ability that is point and click that can also do up to 2k dmg depending on your max hp. There are TONS of examples you are just ignoring couse like every other top player "muh my role weak". That's just hard copium mixed with wiful ignorance, because I don't believe for a second you actually think any of the things I just listed here is "weak"
there is a reason why lck top chose champ that can clear wave fast and always carrying tp
Even at world people where going ignite over tp. Some champs and some matchups require ignite flash.
love alois
Idk, while what he is saying is true I still don't have any sympathy for top laners. I'll take a 5/0 riven/camille/aatrox/illaoi/any bruiser or even tank nowadays with items like heartsteel existing over a 5/0 ADC. First point - not complaining about ADC or saying it is a weak role, it's not. I'm just saying it's really tiresome hearing top laners complain about lack of agency when if they can manage to get through the early game and their team isn't 5k+ gold down you rarely ever give a shit as a top laner. They just build hullbreaker and split in the side lane. Everything he says is true, but I can't stress it enough that what he is saying is ONLY relevant to high elo top lane. If you are in the Bronze to Diamond range none of this applies to you as a top laner. I'm low diamond and I can't even begin to count the number of games where I win bot but my top lane is so gapped that they take over the teamfights or they just build hullbreaker and split push and no one on my team can or wants to deal with them in the side lane. Personally for me as an ADC I feel like if the enemy Top gets fed early or is even decently strong in the mid game it is a challenge to win far more than in games where bot lane doesn't go well and I'm behind in gold to my opponent. If my support is feeding or I have bad deaths I just think "well lane is over but if I farm and play for teamfights as long as my top/jg/mid aren't behind the game is easily winnable."
Edit: also as Nemesis said top lane is the lane where counterpicks and matchups matter the most for whatever reason. The champions played in that lane have a much shaper game of rock-paper-scissors than mid or bot lane. When I get a bad matchup bot it sucks but ultimately I'm not hating life it just will suck for lane most of the time. Same for mid (used to main mid). Top lane is far more about getting counterpick and having a good matchup than it is about Jungle pressure. Yes jungle pressure is a key factor but youre only going to have/receive jungle pressure based on whether or not your matchup is favorable and then the next question would be "do we win the 2v2 if both junglers are here?"
Everybody is crying about how jungle is all that matters. I am a jungler for 13 years. I picked up top lane without any knowledge and hit master tier. It’s such a broken and easy role.
Jungle can control your entire laning phase until you literally cant do anything. Its like, oh wow their jungler just sat topside for 5 minutes, surely they will be behind my jungler... surely?? No, because riot has made jungle so goddamn easy to clear, you dont lose health, you dont lose mana, and you dont even lose time.
So they can gank your lane instantly with full HP, which nearly removes the chance of 1 v 2 outplaying even for champs that were popular for them ( darius, aatrox ). Yeah they can still pull it off but it requires a jungler that is actually winnable early ( kayn for example )
They decide the entire game by simply choosing to either take objectives or farm. If you are unlucky and your jungler decides to farm through the entire game saying "we cant this we cant that" well ggs cuz the enemy team will be enjoying 4 free buffs + free towers + 1 super buff.
On top of all of that, jungle also happens to be one of the most unbalanced roles when it comes to champions. At one moment you may be facing a brand jungle that walks out of a bush and casually oneshots you with 1 combo. The next you may be facing an amumu that has 2 Qs for whatever reason. Morgana jungle, darius jungle ( i know these picks are old, but its all part of the main point ) why does riot have to make these random champs into junglers.. it simply makes the game worse.
Worst of all... YOUR jungler. Its like a baby, you have to constantly look at them, care for them, and they still find a reason to cry and cry. "you should have moved earlier" "bad call ( as they started the objective )" "are you blind ( as they clearly see your enemy laner is zoning you off )"
Its not that jungle is all that matters... its that jungle is just annoying, straight up annoying.
People just say top is broken now because of Zeus and Theshy
? People say top is broken because the champs and items are busted.
@@iRiDiKi Don't forget bout the 3 lvls gap game gives them for free
@@lowceyn2875same goes for mid though
@@lowceyn2875and its even easier for midlaners since their lane is closer to the base...
@@iRiDiKimay i introduce you to bruisers in JGL
Nemesis is still missing the point and so is his chat. Yes Camile has limited options, yes the double ignite lane is snowbally, yes he could have gone teleport. But that's a skill matchup supposed to be even. All of this is because Lillia didnt path top, or her pathing was terrible and left top to die/lose to the 2v1 (Camile cant walk up to lane without losing half hp and level 6 if kha is there). Top had to keep in mind his jungler wasnt playing with him in champ select, while the other had both his jungler and support show up.
"He should keep that in mind or comunicate more" only proves the point even more and the low agency they have.
alois has a point with the jungle interference but he keeps repeating drututt made 0 mistakes. i think taking ignite into this matchup on camille is a very big mistake considering how much faster riven's waveclear is compared to camille's waveclear. teleport is far more reliable to take on camille here. also drututt knew what he was doing wanting to play camille with ignite. he didnt have to make mistakes in game, since the game was rigged from the start
and also i think that in this matchup drututt isnt even planning on winning the laning phase
he can only do this because riven has no resources and more spells and more damage. So he can spam skills and win
How does this make top not broken tho imagine playing vs. a 10/0 bruiser u lose every fight till min 30by default if no one of ur team mates stomped and then it’s not like the bruiser won’t just one tap ur adc or w.e other squishy champ way easier than ur fed adc or w.e champ the bruiser
Both junglers should always 100% of games be pathing top in a volitile snowbally ignite vs ignite lane. Too much is won and lost in this crucial moment and you basically garentee a kill one way or the other.
Every single korean chall jungler would path top, the problem is jungle mindset in the west. They think they are main characters, when really you are playing a support role. And this is coming from a jungle main.
Is the same for adc if ur support is not human is gg for u if the matchup is a bit bad. (High elo)
The vice versa can be said for Junglers or Mids or ADC's or Supports and Top not playing properly/correctly... Change it to any role, there are things that other players do or don't do that affect you. Junglers can lose dragons because one player recalls instead of stays on the map, etc.
The tradeoff is that his bot lane should be ahead. Lillia obviously didn't farm efficiently and is a bad player for it, but it's his choice to put his eggs where he puts his eggs. I think, with double ignite and any riven match up, you'd play toward that lane, but he decided not to and as a laner you have to deal with that as best as you can. The game isn't automatically over just because you have a tough early game - this is a major problem for a lot of League players regardless of their MMR. They tilt to the point of hardly trying or griefing because they fail to understand things completely and think they're the main character who should always be played around. When it is objectively correct to play around them, it'll be used as an excuse for all the times that it's not objectively correct(Like Alois here) and thus, we have the attitude/behavioral problem being double-downed on instead of expanding their understandings of the game/match-ups in other lanes and what it means if the Jungler plays around them instead. This isn't a problem with Top lane being bad, it's a problem with the match up/summoners chosen and possibly we should put forward the idea of what lane the Jungler will play around in champ select (Though this can change when the game plays out) - it was Drututt's choice to take ignite and make it more of a coinflip.
Sure if you have 2 losing lanes and lack of jg pressure you lose any role, but as a junger you can play for a winning lane and get yourself ahead, mid can shove and roam, support can perma roam, you have other options. As a toplaner, best you can do is fall behind significantly, example if Camile just decides she is gonna go bot and pray you kill, while riven gets 2-3 free waves and 2 plates. No one is saying there are no tradeoffs, the game is extremely complex, but other roles don't rely on binary factors as much, and you get to play the game and try to get a lead yourself, not rely on others.
no, you cant, because jungle doesnt decide the winning lane, there are many instances you lose game as a jungler in champ select because laners are braindead and blind pick shit that should not be blind pickable, so im forced to not be able to play in that particular side of the map, yeah man, for sure jungle is so OP, thats why there is no junglers in the top 10 of the major servers @@kristianvukajlovic6789
Dude explains WHY its different for top for 9 mins.
Mids can roam to objectives, junglers can pick a winlane and clean objectives, and bot is the most important lane for being a 2v2 and having drakes.
Toplane doesnt even have free reign tp before 14 minutes, you cant do SHIT early, which is why the role is considered a coinflip
Not only are you at the mercy of your jungler, your impact is nule in the early game and by the time midgame arrives the other lanes have already done so fucking much
You cant path top level 4 as lilia simply because you hard lose every single 2vs2 till lilia is at least level 9. How can a lilia ever play at level 4 vs a riven with ignited and a kha zix ?
The gameplan for lilia is to farm and accelerate herself until she becomes the best champion in the game mid/late game, she outscales everyone and is the main carry in team fights.
its NOT different dunce, every role has weaknesses in parts of the game, if you dislike being weak early, go play support and jungle, stop complaning when you have the strongest mid late game role in the game bar adcs, if anything, adcs are the weakest role in the game cus if you dont have a support which you DO NOT CHOSE, you will literally be useless even in late game, that role does not have ANY agency, as you depend on sups mid early, and you depend on your solo laners late game, you dont make calls, you cant split, you cant take towers alone, you cant 1 v 2, you are dependent on your team grouping and fighting on objectives to dish out dps and 1 v 9. but hey, toplaners said their role is weak and has no agency cus their early is weak and they cant learn to pick TP and pick blindpickable champs @@gearguts7259
But what is he supose to do, play flash tp to be the juglers good puppy, like, flash and tp just to survive de lane, also that now you cannot play agresivly with your e?
people arguing about top not being the least impactful role have no idea about this game
Guys it's so weird when u don't win ur lane u have to depend on ur team to win the game. no other role is like that !!! NO WAY
*proceeds to play riven*
Ok but this is literally from the view of fresh accounts that go straight to master plus elo in 5 games. The game is not played like this in other elos lol. No one pays attention to the map like that. Not that early at least. Top lane is outrageously imbalanced. There is no other champion that can 1v9 harder than a top lane champion. You can fight it you can deny it, but you’re simply wrong. Every single top lane champ is completely overloaded and they either have too much healing or take no damage. To say I’m wrong proves the ego that you have. You can’t ignore a fed top because they’ll end the game, but you also can’t fight the fed top because they’ll win. Is there ways to deal with them sureee-ish, but top laners know how to win, if they are letting you kill them it’s because they’re getting a win somewhere else. Top lane since at least season 10 or 11 has been the carry role and the fact people still refuse to believe that kills my Brain cells.
his main point (camille didn't make a mistake. only lillia made mistakes. lane is reliant on matchup & jgl) all apply to bot lane as well but instead of having to worry about 1 player/champ and track jgl, you have to worry about 3 other players/champs and track jgl. it's much easier to gank & you can play perfect but if your support decides to int it once or twice, 2 champs on your team will be useless for the rest of the game. it's much more volatile and the champs, as well as the items for most crit champs are a joke in comparison to top laners.
You also have a support to help you, meaning twice the amount of wards, extra healing/shielding/CC, Exhaust advantage, better gank setup (jungle pressure), and you scale harder than anyone else in the game..
Sometimes I genuinely wonder if the jungle role is good or bad for the game
Top lane agency in general is poor.
If you aren't playing a splitpusher or some other meta champion, you can't really play the game consistently.
Any tanks besides ksante/malphite struggle to get prio and have agency in the game unless you're a good player on the champ like makkro or baus(And baus hardly plays sion anymore ive heard)
Im sorry but like, if the champion might come up as broken, and the items might be considered broken, the lane is broken, as he says in the tweet and video, if most of what make a lane broken is broken, the lane is broken, the way you put it don't change this, in a lane you have you, your direct opponent and the items you carry, what does it not make it broken? Granted i care little to nothing i fill most of my games but like, wtf?
plat players in the comments thinking any of this applies to them
literally the lilia griefed the game and the camille had flash ignite, no teleport. camille 100% can win this lane and game if those 2 mistakes don't happen,
So he says toplane is not broken because of jungle influence… but who does that jungle influence benefit? The toplaner! 😂 That’s why the role is broken. After all the jgl nerfs, jgl can’t carry over solo lanes anymore, ganking top just means you get your top ahead and your top will carry, that’s why top is “broken”, if 1 toplaner wins the other one is obviously going to lose, doesn’t mean the role is weak because the other side lost.
Also the fact Drut made “no mistakes” coming from Alois is such bullshit. Dude went Conqueror Ignite into a lane he loses, played 7+ minutes without ever using a summoner spell or ever proccing Conqueror, tell me how he didn’t make any mistakes? I didn’t know the game forced him to go Camille with that setup into Riven… I guess it’s not his mistake…
I swear every problem ever in every lane comes from the existence of jungler. Deleting that role and making it a 4v4 is the only solution but it’ll never happen.
remove jungler and it's the most boring MOBA ever.
wtf kind of solution is this
No please i stoped playing adc because my supports were useless and i was forced to 1v2 my lane most of my games, i don't want the same thing to happen in top lane
2 1 2 lane set up like Dota again lol
We found the pisslow
Just revert tp nerfs
The other lanes work like this too, mid can be ganked by both sides and the jg tracking is not even that useful. Bot relies on the support match up, so an adc can play perfectly but if the supp messes up it's over and he becomes a minion. There is a reason why top lane is always the most queued role with mid, because it's easy, forgiving and the champs are insanely powerful. ADC is always priority queue because you lose lane, you're useless for the rest of the game, and losing isn't something you can control, also in low elo no one peels and you're 2 lvs behind the other lanes. Jungle is similar: you are behind in lvs (try ganking a 2-3 lvs ahead jax, good luck), play a boring pve, everyone pings, no one listens to your shotcalls or invades and defeat = your fault.
Just going off of delusion levels of the message I assume you're an ADC main
@@Fr33mx Nope I top/mid since it's just easy nowadays, before i was a jg, but I just stated facts: adc is always prio queue, top laners have the HIGHEST rate of afk and the HIGHEST win rate. Below masters it's just a waste of time playing jungle/adc
In high elo Top is universally recognized as the hardest and most unforgiving role out of the 5 but okay i guess.
ADC mains are excused for thinking their role is even worst, because it can be hellish at times, but I just don't see a good argument for that to be honest.
Most times ADCs just cry about their support or jungler but really it's just a skill issue most of the times.
The role itself is frustrating, but also by far the least complicated and easiest to play. It really is just brainless.
In Top you can make no mistakes and still be heavily punished. No other role really has that.
@@freakalmighty2533 true, after master+ the lane is more common to go even and the top doesn't get many kills, but when that happens... Just look at worlds, how it was completely dominated by Zeus that got MVP
@@edoardobuffa4674 yeah absolutely, but there is an abyss between pro play and soloQ.
the two aren't even the same game, we have to be honest about that when we analyze and talk about balance.
As a midlaner , especially if you play an assassin mid, especially if you go ignite, the same things apply - your game is completely reliant on jungle, support. The one thing that is different is that bruisers will always outscale you in mid and late game and have way more 1v9 potential so they are incentivised to take tp. As an midlaner in high elo, even if you play assassins you are FORCED to take TP to have a consistent chance of winning, if you get 3 man ganked and miss a wave or two and fall 1 lvl behind, the game is over for you as a midlaner.
And at the same time if during champ select you got counter picked and we remove the jungle role out of the game, the game would've been determined by min 1 and you just accept fate that top is lost or any lane.
You can look this entire scenario he mentioned about even match ups in every way possible but lanes would have been always the same no matter what if the jungle role didn't existed, what most likely would happen is we would had more intense support roams. Also with the mentality league players have after 2 deaths on lane they would've quit since there wouldn't be a jungler to help you out to bounce back.
that is prob true for gm+, not for the rest of the entire playerbase
ADC has the same problem and even worse why is he crying ? ADC is dependent on 2 roles instead of 1 JG and SUPP
if you are gonna talk about how broken top lane champs are look at KDF vs GEN game . Aatrox and Ksante did 9000 damage and carried the team fights alone no way you are suggesting or trying to say top lane needs buff
so by his logic jungle is weak as a role cuz if ur midlane dies early game and enemy mid roams u cant play the game. This is idiotic. League is a team game and when u think about matchups its not JUST YOUR OWN. if u have jg lillia and the enemy has XinXaon lillia has to just farm till 6 and then gank. Especially a riven lane where she has so much mobility and ability to get away. Ganking the camile at lvl6 with Lillia R and camile R up is the optimal and smart play. Also lillias win con isnt the camile top that loses to an all in vs Riven. Its the mid lane Syndra and the bot lane that NEEDS the ganks so samira doesnt snowball. Also a 2v2 fight Khazix riven vs camile lillia , lillia and camile lose by far early game. There is absolutely no reason to spend time or cds on a top gank.
Honestly why are we listening to riven players ? Since season 3 we know that they are not either good at the game or understand it. Over and over again they complain about their role/champ.
Yep you have to take tp, you have no other way to fix counter matchups to gain either tempo or fix wave.
But even then the counterpick meta toplane is just cancer.
Midlane is short you can play control mage into control mage. And that's it. Toplane if you pick tank and fiora is opened you're fucked, if darius is opened you're forced into phase rush and you can never gain a lead anyway. Now it would have been okay if dshield and second wind hadn't been gutted, while cancer champions like teemo, rumble and kennent have been turbo buffed.
We've seen it at worlds you counter pick top, game is unplayable, you lose. That's it, and it's not a gameplan. It's just who gets second pick top decides the game unless jg gappu.
wdym dshield second wind hadn't been gutted its the number 1 reason why toplane is "ah look i can get a 10 cs lead and a plate, meanwhile my botlane died 11 times" no matter how well you play you wont solokill an ornn ksante renekton aatrox or 30 other champs with dshield second wind, theyre not even trying to win lane they just play safe and coinflip every game hoping that their botlane is better its so boring
@@nysticalzs6312 you would be surprised with how many nerfs Doran and SW have recieved over the years, now seriously can't the opponent just play even safer if there's no survivability options it's not like without them you could get a lead big enough that after early game you could carry anyway, but even then, without survivability options lanes just devolve into range matchups of attrition
6:44 "Drututt made ZERO mistakes"
Are we just blind or what. Depends on who picked first in draft, did he pick Camille into Riven? Also he took Flash Ignite into a bad matchup. Camille has a 49% wr vs Riven. TP ignite or Flash TP would have been better. Also drututt doesn't main or play Camille often at all so that is very relevant info. Drututt also missed E2 off the wall onto Riven at least 2 times that I can see. Once at 6:15 and again at 6:30. Now I'm not at all saying Camille E2 is easy to hit on a Riven, not even remotely easy but the point still stands he went for it and missed and then got punished in his HP pool and mana for doing so. You cannot say he didn't make any mistakes. It's a bad matchup for Camille, he took flash ignite instead of TP ignite or TP flash and thus any mistakes he makes in the 1v1 will get compounded because Alois wisely punishes him for having no TP and pushes the wave when he recalls to deny him multiple waves of gold and exp.
locks in illaoi
2:38 who else clicked accept?
Top has the hardest laning phase compared to mid or bot. 1 mistake will lose you the lane if both players are equal in skill. Jg doesn't even have to come and 1 mistake can lose you the lane.
and the other lanes have it different? Supports can solo lose the lane for their adcs. Mid can lose prio off of simple wave mistakes.
@@tremendoshd2356top heavily on duel though and matchup.
@@tremendoshd2356I guess bot is frustrating cause it's 2v2 but wave management mistakes are way worse in toplane than in mid. The nature of the melee matchups makes it much harder to just have a bro lane, and a single mistake can result in an eternal freeze vs a champions that have a very good capacity to go in and punish you very early in the game. The length of the lane just makes all of this way worse : you can be chased by most champs for miles when you try to fix your wave, and reversely it makes it harder to crash the wave, one of the several reasons that force toplaners to go for tp.
There are many reasons why toplane has always been considered the most snowballing lane in LoL. Not saying mid is not about wave management as well but it's generally easier.
It worse on bot, because all of this is also true, but on top of that the mistake might not be yours but your supports and the towers are paper on bot, so if they get plates they snowball faster .
@@jormungandr4690 low elo experience. ok
Bro really thinks its a TP diff
Disagree tbh. In pro play toplaners are massively important and influential on the game and in elo up to as far as probably GM how you play toplane will still have extreme importance. It's only in the niche where you're a top challenger player but not a pro where this impacts and honestly fuck the 0.0001%.
Can this same thing not happen bot lane?
Im so confused why this would be a top lane specific thing
Cuz botlane being 2v2 makes it safer, there are also dragons
The conclusion : jungle diff