Damn, I am STILL impressed at how much you raised your production value - after you apologized for upcoming videos going to be lower. Hope it relates to you feeling better.
A bit unrelated, but I think it would help a lot of people if you could talk about the techniques for sharpening long knifes, like chef knives, there getting an even edge up to the tip is quite tricky. :)
You should definitely do more knife reviews! Loved how you did the specs. Quick and intuitive. I hate when people review a knife and spend half the video comparing it to other knives. I also like that you actually carry the knife and have a real world critique. Well done sir!
Absolutely!!! Ain't no one in the knifetuber space putting out the quality and professional level production quality that Alex is putting out! Not to mention his photo and vid skills are freaking amazing on the micro stuff. He is literally doing TV quality video production on this channel and he should be ultra proud of the amazing work he's putting out for us to watch!
Oh yea, i got my first shaving sharp edge ever a cpl days ago...due in large part to your videos and the sharpal 325/1200...what a difference good equipment and a little bit of confidence makes...
Thank you you're the first one brave enough to address this issue steel I purchased the drop bear early this year the new version black blade green Micarta 154 cm it's part of EDC for the week only one carbon fiber knife. Knife community is being brainwashed by Knife companies new Steeles add $30-$50 different scales titanium add $150 we the community can voice disappoint by going sites
There is no better authority to review knives than this channel. I am so glad to see that the channel is going in this direction. Hope to see some Cold Steel knives as well, maybe even swords and machetes someday :)
I have 4 Kizers and bought one for my son. He uses and likes the Kizer so much, he put away his Benchmade Osbourne. My wife, who had zero interest in knives, instantly claimed one of my Kizers when she laid eyes on it. Kizers are good knives.
Benchmade axis lock patents expired a few years back so a lot of companies are making their own versions now. If you like the Drop Bear, check out the Olight Rubato 4, also made by Kizer. It is slightly different but close design and also has S35vn steel. Hardness is supposed to be 60 +/- 2
I remember getting an Asher Knives "Nomad" relatively shortly after the patent expired and reddit was full of knife nerds frothing calling it design theft that someone made a better drop point knife axis lock knife than Benchmades Shitty bugout with the springs that break all the time! Now every knife is a drop point axis lock and nobody complains, smh. Btw almost nothing else about the two knives was the same. Profile, materials, spring quality, aesthetics...
Nice and honest review, can you imagine that this knife is not allowed as an EDC only because you can open it with one Hand?! Now I have to sharpen my kniefes with your recommended diamondstone😁! Greatings from Germany, keep up your excellent work.
In Germany you are not lallowed to carry these knives. You can have only one thing of the following two specs to have it legal. Fulfilling both of the following criteria makes it illegal: 1. ONE HANDED OPENING 2. Locking Blade For example you can have a locking blade but the same knive is then not allowed to be opened with one hand. OR have a knife that opens with one hand but then only have slip locks like Swiss Army knives knife „lock“. Having g both makes the knife illegal: EG Benchmade Bugout. But anyways I don’t care :D (I am from Germany)
I’m glad I found your channel. I have been hearing about Chinese companies doing poor heat treats on premium steels for a while. You review of the Drop Bear really has got me think that I should probably stick to 154cm, Nitro V, and 14C28N when it comes to Chinese knives, there is point in paying top dollar for poorly prepared powder steels. That said, I heard Kunwu does a good job of heat treating their knives.
Definitely… and honestly I appreciate your work and your videos , it’s only because of your channel that I’ve been able to sharpen the way that I can now , thank you bro 🙏 truly appreciate you.
Also, the Clutch-lock is adjustable, you can change the tension of the spring depending on your preferences. And benchmade's axis-lock patent expired a while ago so everyone's doing them now. The coating usually decreases hardness by about 1 HRC.
@@OUTDOORS55 I wonder what the HRC is on their other offerings. I have a 20cv version that was a knifecenter exclusive and I quite love it, but it's my first 20cv, so I don't have any history to compare it to. If the s35vn is run soft I'd have to imagine the 20cv is as well, unless the s35vn in particular is just poorly done. Either way, it's not like I'll stop using it-it's one of my favorite knives-but I hate not knowing. Companies should really be forced to list their target HRC so that customers can make informed decisions.
@@OUTDOORS55 WE is doing the same thing, shooting for 59-61 HRC on the non coated, and 58-60 on the coated blades They really should be going for 60-62 on the non coated, so that the coated versions would be north of 59 HRC Or at least do what they did with the Kizer Miltaw and put on a proper DLC coating instead of a base PVD 🤷🏻♂️
All the we knives I've tested coated and uncoated have been 60+. Im sure eventually ill come across one that isnt but they seems to be leaving them on the harder side.
Happy to see you are doing well! Fat Carbon is a carbion fiber laminate made in the same country I am, Lithuania! I wouldn't say that the less expensive version of the drop bear have "less quality" materials, they are just less premium that are cheaper to manufacture and the base materials are cheaper, Norplex micarta is a great example of a beautiful material that is very wear resistant that is also not as expensive. I have nothing to comment on the Heat treat, seems like amissed great opportunity and the blade is very thick behind the edge. And as for compating with lower price knives, I feel like bag for the buck you get the most the cheaper you go, especialy ontario folders for 15 bucks.. but its like with music equipment, its depreciating returns, the higher end you want the more you need to spend. In this case the ginrding of the steels is totally different and wear in the manufacturers tools and also the base materials have different prices. FYI, it's like just like my opinion man...
The axis lock patent ended a few years ago. That's why so many companies have been using it. Also I have an aluminum with S30v drop bear and I love it. I've had no issues with the blade.
I did a lot of research into kizer and found out they don't do good heat treat on certain steel like s35vn, 20cv, m390, 10v, and 15v, there might be others I'm forgetting. They do good to great on these steels, 154cm, 3v, 4v, elmax, and s90v but s90v is a given being that even 58 or 59 hrc is acceptable and still going to have crazy edge retention. They were running their 3v and 4v a little soft a few years ago but they said they were going to improve them and then when tested again about a year ago the 4v was running 64-65 hrc but I haven't found any actual recent test results for the 3v. I haven't tried their 3v myself but I did recently purchase a mini sheepdog in 4v and I believe they are still doing very good heat treat with it, I sharpened it right when I got it and I've been using it hard daily for a month now and its stayed very sharp with just 1 or 2 strops. I honestly don't understand why they are using so much s35vn on their premium knives when they can use what they already do well, 4v or elmax for knives they want to be tougher and s90v for knives they want to have excellent edge retention.
I got nitro V version in ultem, $80 bucks. You get ultem, a razor sharp blade, adjustable omega spring and the clutch lock (axis lock) system. Cant beat it.
throwback to an older vid - but I bought the vosteed raccoon and just received it today. shaving sharp out of the box, really nice finish, joint is solid, opens easy, awesome texture and fit on the scales, and really good pocket profile. and it comes with a little zipper carrying case and a microfiber cloth (for? heh). but the overall fit and finish on it is actually really nice for a "budget nice knife". great recommendation.
You broke my heart soon as you fired up the belt grinder. I knew what was coming. I do love the comparison videos. I’m so hard on my edc knives I can’t hardly afford to pay big prices. I’d love to see your thoughts on SOG knives.
New to your channel but definetly not new to the knife community. The whole time I was watching the review, I was thinking to myself "yeah, but it's a shame that the vosteed raccoon functions almost identically for half the price" as im fidgeting with my black micarta axis lock vosteed. Then 7:28 came on 😂 great review. The racoon for me is everything the kizer/bugout aims to be, and I've been EXTREMELY impressed with vosteed 14c28. My only gripe is it not having standoffs in between the liners and poor detent.
The coating on the opposite side might also affect the HRC. Remove it and burn off 10% of the surface layer with HCl acid. Melt the steel into a perfect flat block. Buy 10 knives and do the same to get a big enough sample size. Make sure your tears don't fall on the block of steel, as this could affect the reading by 0.000001%
Stratton the point. Love the way you give us info. I think.we spend a lot of time in the minor differences of our knives when most knives will do 90% of what we use them for. Great job
I love all your videos I've improved all my sharpening an processes an wish you the best with your health. I'd also love to see you review cold steel knives personally I love there knives it's what's made me want to make my own knives an your videos have made me want to do get back into that process even more thanks. Wish you good health
I guees Stuff happens . I bought 2 knives from Kisar and an happy with both . One was the `Escort` model which is the same locking system. It works fantastic. The tention IS adjustable as the blade has holes drilled in it for you to do as you might like . The blade is longer, 3.3 in. and come in different scales for you to chose . I can`t say about the hardness of the steel ,but it is 154cm .So good enough for me. $89.00 makes it a good value , imo I`m surprised that Kisar got you a bad knife .Their quality seems to be very good . But all things change ,so that might be an indication of their future . I guress it`s now` buy at your own risk` ... Well at least we have been warned .... Thanks
My first non cheap knife was in 14c28n. And it was great, but I wasn’t thrilled with edge retention. I picked up a Spyderco in CPM CruWear and I can absolutely tell the difference. BUT! After more knives and getting better at sharpening can I tell the difference in edge retention between CruWear, S30V, M390, S90V and Magnacut? Nope.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Arrogant much? The point is once you hit a certain level of edge retention in super steels they are very similar in day to day use.
Yooooo! I peeped that Em flow & scheme... NICE! Hell of a nice and subtle nod to Em, respect for that. The scheme was nice, actually original and a bit funny, definitely caught me off guard 😂 . That was just a cherry on top of your regular content which I greatly appreciate, always wondered why I had trouble sharpening knives, now I actually know why (burrs), I've been binge watching your videos and learning the intricacies of sharpening, watched your stropping videos and various sharpening videos as well as quite a few stone videos. Definitely planning on a sharpal diamond stone when I can afford one, got a crappy stone at the moment, but it isn't too bad as it's the burrs that are screwing me over and not sure how to really deal with them for the time being (until I can actually get/make a strop). Actually have a question concerning strops: What if you're completely broke/simply can't afford to spend the money at this time (as it has to go to other things like bills & food) and have no access to a proper strop, what are some ok/emergency/in a pinch options? What are some of the better things/material/methods to de-burr a knife (as much as you can) until you're able to actually get (make) yourself a proper strop? I manage to get rather nice edges but they hardly last due to the burrs and I have no way (that I know of) that would help with removing or minimizing burrs. I have a crap stone but can get relatively hair popping (though not whittling) results, but it doesn't last due to the burrs. Need options as I can't afford to drop $40(ish) bucks on a strop at this time but I want to actually be able to sharpen and use my knives for more than a handful uses before it "dulls" again. I'm not expecting perfection or anything like that, just something that will allow me to use it more than say 2-4 times before having to go back to the stone.
I have a lot of Kizers, and love their designs, but there have been several tests coming up on the low end of "acceptable" HRC. It's sad to see decent steels run soft, and it shouldn't be that hard to get them right. Vosteed is doing a lot right these days, the Raccoon is a favorite of mine.
The content is better and better, congrats on that. Regarding blade hardness - could it be a design choice to make it easier to sharpen - as more people come to the EDC community, they stil need to learn sharpening and doing so on a hard to sharpen blade can make them avoid the brand in the future. (I know there guided sharpening systems but most people want to do it free hand because of the cool factor)
Benchmade had the original patents for the axis lock. Those expire a handful of years ago so now most brands have their own take on the lock out there. While most companies have their own name for it, the þore general term is just a crossbar lock (benchmade still own the axis lock title). If I'm remembering correctly, Kizer is known for doing the lock type exceptionally well and for having adjustable tension. Crossbar lock typically have 2 omega springs that wrap and the bar with other ends of the springs hooking into a small hole in the liner. Kershaw has multiple different holes predrilled into either side to reduce or increase resistance. It's a cool feature, but I imagine it's rarely used.
The only production company that's willing to run there steel hard is spyderco, everybody else runs there's soft as dog $&it, they want toughness over edge retention, but that's not why we buy most of these steels
Benchmade's Axis lock patent ran out after all these years, so we can finally get the same type of lock from other companies. I had a Aluminum Drop Bear in S35VN I got for $90, but sold it to a friend bc I didn't like holding spear point so high for draw cuts. I found the detent/retention too soft. I dont like when I can wrist flick my axis lock knifes (Hogue Deka same issue)
I don't get doing coating on a stainless steel. All kt does is lower hardness since they're done at high heat and act like another temper cycle. Unless you take it into account like say Rockstead and run it harder for that reason (but production blades are all done the same and then some get satin, bead blasted or coating finish). I guess some people like coated blades but mist don't since they're always the last to sell out.
Can you please do an entire video just dedicated to burr removal. I feel like this is the hardest part of sharpening…but most youtubers just gloss over it and give a false perception that it takes 2 seconds to deburr.
After getting through over 400 knives (around half were folders) I always edc the Ganzo G720-O. Cheap, big, fun. I know it is a copy, but it is this good. Benchmade 610 Rukus comes in a "close" second ;).
"I could go a day without sharpening this knife" - Alex Now, you're not fooling anyone here. You would probably resharpen this knife 2-3 times a day just for fun.
I know its double the price but i got the houge mysto a few months ago and it has quickly become my favorite knife. Came perfect out of the box. Still have yet to sharpen it though
Kizers heat treatment overall is not good. They did improve some steels ht but overall I just avoid the brand. Like they use a lot of 154cm, but would be better off using 9c18mov with civivis heat treatment which is better than 154cm performance and affordable. Steel and ht is value. If its low its low value. If its low value the price better reflect that.
Axis lock patent ended some time ago ... ( From what I understand ) Yeah , a lot of companies are pushing out soft steel . ( That's life for you ) Even so called cheap steel can perform reasonably well ....... if hardened correctly . Some of my ( my ) best knives are truly hard ... ( 65HRC file skates ) & edge retention is really good .
With Benchmade the patent has expired but they still own the trademark "Axis Lock" name, so while others can use the lock type they have to rename it as something else like the "Clutch Lock" as Kizer has done. Very dissapointing test results on the steel at 58.5 HRC, would love to see an uncoated version tested to see those results as the claim is that during the application and curing of the coating a temperature is applied that will lower the HRC due to the tempering effect of having that heat applied for a specific lenght of time. I believe Jerad at Neeves is facing the same problem with the coating he is trying to get on K390 (uncoated 63 HRC and Coated at 61 HRC i believe) on the knife he is having made overseas. For myself i have the big brother to this knife the Kizer Escort in 20CV with aluminum handle, without a HRC tester i cannot be certain but it appears to be in line with other chinese 20CV knives just average, but I'm only on my second edge so im hoping for a but more improvement like we see on many steels with a burnt edge (something pretty common I've found). For the price id say it was an ok purchase around $150 and the tunable action on the clutch lock makes it one of the best i have ever tried. There is a much cheaper version in 154CM and micarta but the premium one has much better quality in my opinion and worth the extra cost for materials and feel of the knife. Thanks for the great vid and keep making sharp things fun and enjoyable
I didnt buy another knife because of you. The closing easy thing blew my mind. I had the perfect knife sitting right here. The custom frame lock I carried is in the drawer of shame. Now I carry a cheap civivi with a button lock thingy 😅. Convince me to get a new one with these reviews. I dont mind collecting, I just dont have a reason right now. Im gonna give all my frame locks away to non knife nerds, suckers…
I got a 20CV Drop Bear a few weeks ago and agreed re: action, got a budget Sheepdog on order to see how the clutch lock translates to a different blade shape and weight... Disappointed but perhaps not surprised by the HRC on the S35VN - I do wonder if the 20CV heat treat is going to be Italian M390 level soft... Still a great day to day pocket knife though
The patent for the "Axis Lock" was held by Benchmade, and has expired. Many manufacturers are now using the same style, just calling it something else.
As soon as manufacturers stick carbon fiber (or for that matter, titanium) on a knife, it becomes pocket jewelry. Have I bought a few Chinese knives in S35VN in these handle materials? Yes. But for those two (Kizer Clairvoyant, Civivi Vision FG (KC excl.)), its always been because because I loved the design, and found the S35VN + CF the most aesthetically appealing, not because I expected them to perform better. And there's my problem with the Drop Bear. The design seems functional but unless one's really into spear points, pretty boring. I was even interested in the LC200N version as a nicer alternative to the Spyderco Salts, and then discovered Kizer made no attempt to make the rest of the knife corrosion resistant.
The process of applying the blade coating is what drops the HRC. So a uncoated blade of the same knife will have +2 or about HRC. It has nothing to do with testing through the coating.
Thanks for the video. A possible alternative to the Drop Bear is CJRB Hectare in S90V currently selling for $119.99. I registered with CJRB and got 10% off. I don't know what the Rockwell is but they claim 59-61.
Nobody seems to up the hrc on s35vn by much more than your findings. Assuming all heat treatments are created equal(hypothetically), we know that typically lower hrc=higher toughness/less edge retention and higher hrc=lower toughness/higher edge retention. I guess all this leaves me wondering why us knife enthusiasts are so willing to shell out $100's of dollars for knives in s35vn when there seem to be options that are more affordable, that are commonly done with a higher hrc without sacrificing noticeable toughness. Kinda feels like we are paying higher prices because it's a Crucible product and not because of it's properties.
It's a very small sample size, but in the handful of hrc tests of seen on Kizer knives, they've all been on the softer side. Kind of hard to pay for premium steel with a sub-optimal heat treat.
I don't really disagree with your overall conclusion, except that I would have reached it for different reasons. 58.5 HRC on S35VN is really not that bad. Google the Spyderco HRC database, and you'll see even they only run theirs at 59-60. That much difference in hardness makes very little difference in performance. However given how much stuff is out in S35VN for under $100 I gotta agree. Kizer has been charging a lot for their axis lock and fat carbon, and I think that's actually where the price tag is reflected, not so much the steel.
Interesting. I've heard that some blade coating processes can mess with the hardness or temper on blades, especially cryo-treated ones that have a 350-400F temper. No clue if that's the case or how much the swing in hardness would be between coated and plain blades with all else being equal. I did a cut test a year or so back of a lot of companies' S35VN profiled to 15 degrees with twisted sisal rope (Artisan, Boker Plus, Civivi/We, Kancept & Spyderco China). They all were surprisingly close to each other, I think there was about a 20 cut variance between the top and bottom (they averaged 700 cuts each). I didn't have a Kizer in the stuff at the time though
Some coatings require give or take 500c. So they will be better off using secondary hardening and the coating can be one of the 3 tempers. Some coatings dont require that high of a temp but they dont usually last. You can apply high heat tempers but they dont usually do too good with hardness in the end. Plus if you ask for ht, in china, they give you the whole ht, so I dont think you can ask for no tempers and then apply the high heat coating as the temper.
The Axis Lock copyright expired a couple years ago and now every major brand has it by a different name. Kizer is a weird brand that puts out some good designs, a lot of bad designs, and rarely lives up to the expectations of their price points.
You have to filter the air in the room before you measure the hardness, it chemically bonds to the knife and effects the hardness :P
Seriously, how does everyone not know this?
Also, the lunar positioning, ideally you want to test HRC at slack tide based on local charts to standardize for neutral tidal forces.
Also best practice to ensure that the moon isn't at perigee. Something with tidal forces stretching the steel, softening it.
@@zionpsyfer 🤣🤣
😂😂
Your photography is second to none.
Absolutly!
Damn, I am STILL impressed at how much you raised your production value - after you apologized for upcoming videos going to be lower. Hope it relates to you feeling better.
A bit unrelated, but I think it would help a lot of people if you could talk about the techniques for sharpening long knifes, like chef knives, there getting an even edge up to the tip is quite tricky. :)
Thank you for providing measurements in metrics. Much appreciated!
You should definitely do more knife reviews! Loved how you did the specs. Quick and intuitive. I hate when people review a knife and spend half the video comparing it to other knives. I also like that you actually carry the knife and have a real world critique. Well done sir!
Would love to see more episodes comparing budget vs premium blades. Like civivi vs benchmade
The improvement in production quality on this channel has been incredible!
Absolutely!!! Ain't no one in the knifetuber space putting out the quality and professional level production quality that Alex is putting out! Not to mention his photo and vid skills are freaking amazing on the micro stuff. He is literally doing TV quality video production on this channel and he should be ultra proud of the amazing work he's putting out for us to watch!
Yay! new video! Glad to see you're able to keep making content. Hoping that means your health is good!
Oh yea, i got my first shaving sharp edge ever a cpl days ago...due in large part to your videos and the sharpal 325/1200...what a difference good equipment and a little bit of confidence makes...
The knife sharpening genius .. with another awesome video 👏 ❤😇
Thank you you're the first one brave enough to address this issue steel I purchased the drop bear early this year the new version black blade green Micarta 154 cm it's part of EDC for the week only one carbon fiber knife. Knife community is being brainwashed by Knife companies new Steeles add $30-$50 different scales titanium add $150 we the community can voice disappoint by going sites
I love me some Kizer knives. In fact I’ve got a little sheepdog mini that I’ve sharpened thanks to you.
There is no better authority to review knives than this channel. I am so glad to see that the channel is going in this direction. Hope to see some Cold Steel knives as well, maybe even swords and machetes someday :)
Identifying these diamonds in the rough would be a great series. They are out there
I have 4 Kizers and bought one for my son. He uses and likes the Kizer so much, he put away his Benchmade Osbourne. My wife, who had zero interest in knives, instantly claimed one of my Kizers when she laid eyes on it.
Kizers are good knives.
loved that outro with that despair music haha
Benchmade axis lock patents expired a few years back so a lot of companies are making their own versions now. If you like the Drop Bear, check out the Olight Rubato 4, also made by Kizer. It is slightly different but close design and also has S35vn steel. Hardness is supposed to be 60 +/- 2
Not to be that guy, but isn't 60-2... 58?
@@jonpaul6948 Yes, but it could also be up to 62 depending on the heat treat that day. The unfortunate downside to cheaper production.
I remember getting an Asher Knives "Nomad" relatively shortly after the patent expired and reddit was full of knife nerds frothing calling it design theft that someone made a better drop point knife axis lock knife than Benchmades Shitty bugout with the springs that break all the time! Now every knife is a drop point axis lock and nobody complains, smh. Btw almost nothing else about the two knives was the same. Profile, materials, spring quality, aesthetics...
Should be 61-62 if Kizer actually cared enough.
Nice and honest review, can you imagine that this knife is not allowed as an EDC only because you can open it with one Hand?! Now I have to sharpen my kniefes with your recommended diamondstone😁! Greatings from Germany, keep up your excellent work.
In Germany you are not lallowed to carry these knives. You can have only one thing of the following two specs to have it legal. Fulfilling both of the following criteria makes it illegal:
1. ONE HANDED OPENING
2. Locking Blade
For example you can have a locking blade but the same knive is then not allowed to be opened with one hand.
OR have a knife that opens with one hand but then only have slip locks like Swiss Army knives knife „lock“.
Having g both makes the knife illegal:
EG Benchmade Bugout.
But anyways I don’t care :D
(I am from Germany)
I’m glad I found your channel. I have been hearing about Chinese companies doing poor heat treats on premium steels for a while. You review of the Drop Bear really has got me think that I should probably stick to 154cm, Nitro V, and 14C28N when it comes to Chinese knives, there is point in paying top dollar for poorly prepared powder steels. That said, I heard Kunwu does a good job of heat treating their knives.
Now sign the Drop Bear with a laser where you sanded the DLC and auction it to your Patreon.
"It would be a solid block!!" God I love how this channel gets me! The end had me almost on the floor 😂 ✌️
This video is great. Thank you for making it and sharing it with the world.
Lmfao 🤣 and omg Kramer saying “it would be a solid block!” 😆 👍
One of the funniest scenes in television history 😂
Definitely… and honestly I appreciate your work and your videos , it’s only because of your channel that I’ve been able to sharpen the way that I can now , thank you bro 🙏 truly appreciate you.
Awesome! That's great to hear👍👍👊
I've had my eye on this knife, I absolutely love the look of it. Thanks for the timely review!
Thanks for providing metric measurements as well
Also, the Clutch-lock is adjustable, you can change the tension of the spring depending on your preferences. And benchmade's axis-lock patent expired a while ago so everyone's doing them now. The coating usually decreases hardness by about 1 HRC.
We should still be a solid 60+ hrc though 👍
I was just gonna comment on the benchmade patent expiring when I saw this comment
@@OUTDOORS55 I wonder what the HRC is on their other offerings. I have a 20cv version that was a knifecenter exclusive and I quite love it, but it's my first 20cv, so I don't have any history to compare it to. If the s35vn is run soft I'd have to imagine the 20cv is as well, unless the s35vn in particular is just poorly done.
Either way, it's not like I'll stop using it-it's one of my favorite knives-but I hate not knowing. Companies should really be forced to list their target HRC so that customers can make informed decisions.
@@OUTDOORS55 WE is doing the same thing, shooting for 59-61 HRC on the non coated, and 58-60 on the coated blades
They really should be going for 60-62 on the non coated, so that the coated versions would be north of 59 HRC
Or at least do what they did with the Kizer Miltaw and put on a proper DLC coating instead of a base PVD
🤷🏻♂️
All the we knives I've tested coated and uncoated have been 60+. Im sure eventually ill come across one that isnt but they seems to be leaving them on the harder side.
Heeeey!!! your doing knife reviews now!? Nice! Hope to see many more!
Excellent! Glad to see you makin vids and seem to be feelin better! Prayin for you & yours!
God bless~
Happy to see you are doing well!
Fat Carbon is a carbion fiber laminate made in the same country I am, Lithuania!
I wouldn't say that the less expensive version of the drop bear have "less quality" materials, they are just less premium that are cheaper to manufacture and the base materials are cheaper, Norplex micarta is a great example of a beautiful material that is very wear resistant that is also not as expensive.
I have nothing to comment on the Heat treat, seems like amissed great opportunity and the blade is very thick behind the edge.
And as for compating with lower price knives, I feel like bag for the buck you get the most the cheaper you go, especialy ontario folders for 15 bucks.. but its like with music equipment, its depreciating returns, the higher end you want the more you need to spend. In this case the ginrding of the steels is totally different and wear in the manufacturers tools and also the base materials have different prices.
FYI, it's like just like my opinion man...
The music at the end was a great touch!!
Happy to see you online ❤
You’re an inspiration to the knife community! God bless brother!
Keep cranking out the great vids Alex! I hope your health is doing well and your getting better! I'm pulling for you!
Lace.
Man, you video/photo production is top notch 👌
The axis lock patent ended a few years ago. That's why so many companies have been using it.
Also I have an aluminum with S30v drop bear and I love it. I've had no issues with the blade.
You and jared have helped me learn how to freeehand shsrpen all my kitchen knives and mess a few nice ones up lol 😆 but thansk yall the best 🙌
I did a lot of research into kizer and found out they don't do good heat treat on certain steel like s35vn, 20cv, m390, 10v, and 15v, there might be others I'm forgetting. They do good to great on these steels, 154cm, 3v, 4v, elmax, and s90v but s90v is a given being that even 58 or 59 hrc is acceptable and still going to have crazy edge retention. They were running their 3v and 4v a little soft a few years ago but they said they were going to improve them and then when tested again about a year ago the 4v was running 64-65 hrc but I haven't found any actual recent test results for the 3v. I haven't tried their 3v myself but I did recently purchase a mini sheepdog in 4v and I believe they are still doing very good heat treat with it, I sharpened it right when I got it and I've been using it hard daily for a month now and its stayed very sharp with just 1 or 2 strops. I honestly don't understand why they are using so much s35vn on their premium knives when they can use what they already do well, 4v or elmax for knives they want to be tougher and s90v for knives they want to have excellent edge retention.
I got nitro V version in ultem, $80 bucks. You get ultem, a razor sharp blade, adjustable omega spring and the clutch lock (axis lock) system. Cant beat it.
throwback to an older vid - but I bought the vosteed raccoon and just received it today. shaving sharp out of the box, really nice finish, joint is solid, opens easy, awesome texture and fit on the scales, and really good pocket profile. and it comes with a little zipper carrying case and a microfiber cloth (for? heh). but the overall fit and finish on it is actually really nice for a "budget nice knife". great recommendation.
these close-up shots 😱😱😱 This review is something else lol, you should review more knives.
I will be. These are fun!😀
I love catching new videos from you, my dude!
You broke my heart soon as you fired up the belt grinder. I knew what was coming. I do love the comparison videos. I’m so hard on my edc knives I can’t hardly afford to pay big prices. I’d love to see your thoughts on SOG knives.
New to your channel but definetly not new to the knife community. The whole time I was watching the review, I was thinking to myself "yeah, but it's a shame that the vosteed raccoon functions almost identically for half the price" as im fidgeting with my black micarta axis lock vosteed. Then 7:28 came on 😂 great review. The racoon for me is everything the kizer/bugout aims to be, and I've been EXTREMELY impressed with vosteed 14c28. My only gripe is it not having standoffs in between the liners and poor detent.
Excellent review 👏 👌 👍
The coating on the opposite side might also affect the HRC. Remove it and burn off 10% of the surface layer with HCl acid. Melt the steel into a perfect flat block. Buy 10 knives and do the same to get a big enough sample size. Make sure your tears don't fall on the block of steel, as this could affect the reading by 0.000001%
Knife nuts are more likeable than gun nuts.
What if youre a knife nut, and a gun nut?
Lol knife nuts argue over anything related to the subject.....
Stratton the point. Love the way you give us info. I think.we spend a lot of time in the minor differences of our knives when most knives will do 90% of what we use them for. Great job
I love all your videos I've improved all my sharpening an processes an wish you the best with your health. I'd also love to see you review cold steel knives personally I love there knives it's what's made me want to make my own knives an your videos have made me want to do get back into that process even more thanks. Wish you good health
The patent for the axis lock has run out, but, apparently, not the copyright for the name, according to the Knife Center.
I guees Stuff happens . I bought 2 knives from Kisar and an happy with both . One was the `Escort` model which is the same locking system. It works fantastic. The tention IS adjustable as the blade has holes drilled in it for you to do as you might like . The blade is longer, 3.3 in. and come in different scales for you to chose .
I can`t say about the hardness of the steel ,but it is 154cm .So good enough for me.
$89.00 makes it a good value , imo
I`m surprised that Kisar got you a bad knife .Their quality seems to be very good . But all things change ,so that might be an indication of their future . I guress it`s now` buy at your own risk` ...
Well at least we have been warned .... Thanks
Got the acrylic Drop Bear in Nitro-V for $59, so that’s a real option now instead of the Raccoon. The Raccoon is good though!
My first non cheap knife was in 14c28n. And it was great, but I wasn’t thrilled with edge retention. I picked up a Spyderco in CPM CruWear and I can absolutely tell the difference. BUT! After more knives and getting better at sharpening can I tell the difference in edge retention between CruWear, S30V, M390, S90V and Magnacut? Nope.
You can tell the difference. You choose not to.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Arrogant much? The point is once you hit a certain level of edge retention in super steels they are very similar in day to day use.
@@jwiz1911 why are facts arrogant?
5:10 clutch lock is just their name for the axis lock, known generically as the cross bar lock
Yooooo! I peeped that Em flow & scheme... NICE! Hell of a nice and subtle nod to Em, respect for that. The scheme was nice, actually original and a bit funny, definitely caught me off guard 😂 . That was just a cherry on top of your regular content which I greatly appreciate, always wondered why I had trouble sharpening knives, now I actually know why (burrs), I've been binge watching your videos and learning the intricacies of sharpening, watched your stropping videos and various sharpening videos as well as quite a few stone videos. Definitely planning on a sharpal diamond stone when I can afford one, got a crappy stone at the moment, but it isn't too bad as it's the burrs that are screwing me over and not sure how to really deal with them for the time being (until I can actually get/make a strop).
Actually have a question concerning strops: What if you're completely broke/simply can't afford to spend the money at this time (as it has to go to other things like bills & food) and have no access to a proper strop, what are some ok/emergency/in a pinch options? What are some of the better things/material/methods to de-burr a knife (as much as you can) until you're able to actually get (make) yourself a proper strop? I manage to get rather nice edges but they hardly last due to the burrs and I have no way (that I know of) that would help with removing or minimizing burrs. I have a crap stone but can get relatively hair popping (though not whittling) results, but it doesn't last due to the burrs. Need options as I can't afford to drop $40(ish) bucks on a strop at this time but I want to actually be able to sharpen and use my knives for more than a handful uses before it "dulls" again. I'm not expecting perfection or anything like that, just something that will allow me to use it more than say 2-4 times before having to go back to the stone.
You should try reviewing like the spider coat kitchen, not the basic ones, but the fancy ones
I really like your knife making series ever going to make more? Great video your content is awesome the Damascus knife parody is pure gold.
I have a lot of Kizers, and love their designs, but there have been several tests coming up on the low end of "acceptable" HRC. It's sad to see decent steels run soft, and it shouldn't be that hard to get them right. Vosteed is doing a lot right these days, the Raccoon is a favorite of mine.
The content is better and better, congrats on that.
Regarding blade hardness - could it be a design choice to make it easier to sharpen - as more people come to the EDC community, they stil need to learn sharpening and doing so on a hard to sharpen blade can make them avoid the brand in the future. (I know there guided sharpening systems but most people want to do it free hand because of the cool factor)
I like the orange one because i can see it in the dark at 100 yds
Benchmade had the original patents for the axis lock. Those expire a handful of years ago so now most brands have their own take on the lock out there. While most companies have their own name for it, the þore general term is just a crossbar lock (benchmade still own the axis lock title). If I'm remembering correctly, Kizer is known for doing the lock type exceptionally well and for having adjustable tension. Crossbar lock typically have 2 omega springs that wrap and the bar with other ends of the springs hooking into a small hole in the liner. Kershaw has multiple different holes predrilled into either side to reduce or increase resistance. It's a cool feature, but I imagine it's rarely used.
The only production company that's willing to run there steel hard is spyderco, everybody else runs there's soft as dog $&it, they want toughness over edge retention, but that's not why we buy most of these steels
Benchmade's Axis lock patent ran out after all these years, so we can finally get the same type of lock from other companies.
I had a Aluminum Drop Bear in S35VN I got for $90, but sold it to a friend bc I didn't like holding spear point so high for draw cuts. I found the detent/retention too soft. I dont like when I can wrist flick my axis lock knifes (Hogue Deka same issue)
great review, really like the critical takes and comparison to the raccoon
to my knowledge kizer has a great heat treat with 154cm, and elmax
but their ht suck at s35vn and 20cv
Kizer 154cm is sub par to civivi 9cr18mov. Most of their steels need improvements or better choices.
I don't get doing coating on a stainless steel. All kt does is lower hardness since they're done at high heat and act like another temper cycle. Unless you take it into account like say Rockstead and run it harder for that reason (but production blades are all done the same and then some get satin, bead blasted or coating finish). I guess some people like coated blades but mist don't since they're always the last to sell out.
😂 Great way to start a day, you really hit my humor nerve dead center!
Thanks
You should make a knife & inlay some *Bering Sea Gold* into the handle.
Can you please do an entire video just dedicated to burr removal. I feel like this is the hardest part of sharpening…but most youtubers just gloss over it and give a false perception that it takes 2 seconds to deburr.
The Racoon has cut me a few times closing it. I dislike both, but if you want a good one go with the drop bear 100%
5:13 benchmade's patent on the axis lock expired a while ago so we see a lot more of that type of locking mechanism since then
After getting through over 400 knives (around half were folders) I always edc the Ganzo G720-O. Cheap, big, fun. I know it is a copy, but it is this good. Benchmade 610 Rukus comes in a "close" second ;).
Puma knives the old fixed blade hunters had steel so hard it was hard to sharpen them, but when you did you could filet a virus’s protein layer
"I could go a day without sharpening this knife" - Alex
Now, you're not fooling anyone here. You would probably resharpen this knife 2-3 times a day just for fun.
Hey i have a brick for that 😉
Both the knives I used, boker and spyderco, were 58 HRC only. You must be used to your own custom knives that are very high hardness. :D
Kershaw bel air, ticks all the boxes for me.. minus the deep pocket clip ( I prefer a standard spoon clip) !
I know its double the price but i got the houge mysto a few months ago and it has quickly become my favorite knife. Came perfect out of the box. Still have yet to sharpen it though
It was nice to see the grinder get fired up again. Did it make you want to do a stock removal video again? (please do one, for old times sake)😅
I would love to see a good review of the old Benchmade AFOII. not the best blade steel, but I'd love to see it anyway.
Kizers heat treatment overall is not good. They did improve some steels ht but overall I just avoid the brand.
Like they use a lot of 154cm, but would be better off using 9c18mov with civivis heat treatment which is better than 154cm performance and affordable.
Steel and ht is value. If its low its low value. If its low value the price better reflect that.
Axis lock patent ended some time ago ... ( From what I understand ) Yeah , a lot of companies are pushing out soft steel . ( That's life for you ) Even so called cheap steel can perform reasonably well ....... if hardened correctly . Some of my ( my ) best knives are truly hard ... ( 65HRC file skates ) & edge retention is really good .
With Benchmade the patent has expired but they still own the trademark "Axis Lock" name, so while others can use the lock type they have to rename it as something else like the "Clutch Lock" as Kizer has done. Very dissapointing test results on the steel at 58.5 HRC, would love to see an uncoated version tested to see those results as the claim is that during the application and curing of the coating a temperature is applied that will lower the HRC due to the tempering effect of having that heat applied for a specific lenght of time. I believe Jerad at Neeves is facing the same problem with the coating he is trying to get on K390 (uncoated 63 HRC and Coated at 61 HRC i believe) on the knife he is having made overseas. For myself i have the big brother to this knife the Kizer Escort in 20CV with aluminum handle, without a HRC tester i cannot be certain but it appears to be in line with other chinese 20CV knives just average, but I'm only on my second edge so im hoping for a but more improvement like we see on many steels with a burnt edge (something pretty common I've found). For the price id say it was an ok purchase around $150 and the tunable action on the clutch lock makes it one of the best i have ever tried. There is a much cheaper version in 154CM and micarta but the premium one has much better quality in my opinion and worth the extra cost for materials and feel of the knife. Thanks for the great vid and keep making sharp things fun and enjoyable
I didnt buy another knife because of you. The closing easy thing blew my mind. I had the perfect knife sitting right here. The custom frame lock I carried is in the drawer of shame. Now I carry a cheap civivi with a button lock thingy 😅. Convince me to get a new one with these reviews. I dont mind collecting, I just dont have a reason right now. Im gonna give all my frame locks away to non knife nerds, suckers…
I got a 20CV Drop Bear a few weeks ago and agreed re: action, got a budget Sheepdog on order to see how the clutch lock translates to a different blade shape and weight...
Disappointed but perhaps not surprised by the HRC on the S35VN - I do wonder if the 20CV heat treat is going to be Italian M390 level soft... Still a great day to day pocket knife though
The patent for the "Axis Lock" was held by Benchmade, and has expired. Many manufacturers are now using the same style, just calling it something else.
As soon as manufacturers stick carbon fiber (or for that matter, titanium) on a knife, it becomes pocket jewelry. Have I bought a few Chinese knives in S35VN in these handle materials? Yes. But for those two (Kizer Clairvoyant, Civivi Vision FG (KC excl.)), its always been because because I loved the design, and found the S35VN + CF the most aesthetically appealing, not because I expected them to perform better.
And there's my problem with the Drop Bear. The design seems functional but unless one's really into spear points, pretty boring. I was even interested in the LC200N version as a nicer alternative to the Spyderco Salts, and then discovered Kizer made no attempt to make the rest of the knife corrosion resistant.
It would be nice to make a video about sharpening on random household items.
The process of applying the blade coating is what drops the HRC. So a uncoated blade of the same knife will have +2 or about HRC. It has nothing to do with testing through the coating.
I’ve recently got into Kizer knives and I think this will be my next purchase.
Not a bad knife 👍
The patent on the Axis Lock mechanism ran out, the trademark on the name Axis Lock did not.
Thanks for the video. A possible alternative to the Drop Bear is CJRB Hectare in S90V currently selling for $119.99. I registered with CJRB and got 10% off. I don't know what the Rockwell is but they claim 59-61.
Got rid of my Kizers and went VOSTEED.
Nobody seems to up the hrc on s35vn by much more than your findings. Assuming all heat treatments are created equal(hypothetically), we know that typically lower hrc=higher toughness/less edge retention and higher hrc=lower toughness/higher edge retention. I guess all this leaves me wondering why us knife enthusiasts are so willing to shell out $100's of dollars for knives in s35vn when there seem to be options that are more affordable, that are commonly done with a higher hrc without sacrificing noticeable toughness. Kinda feels like we are paying higher prices because it's a Crucible product and not because of it's properties.
It's a very small sample size, but in the handful of hrc tests of seen on Kizer knives, they've all been on the softer side. Kind of hard to pay for premium steel with a sub-optimal heat treat.
Kizer cannot use the name “Axis lock” but can put the lock on their knives. So they call it a clutch lock and make the spring tension adjustable.
Do you have a full review of the Racoon?
Not yet🙂
Though it seems to be better than ANY knife I own, it's still overpriced.
Great video! 🙋🏼♂️
I don't really disagree with your overall conclusion, except that I would have reached it for different reasons. 58.5 HRC on S35VN is really not that bad. Google the Spyderco HRC database, and you'll see even they only run theirs at 59-60. That much difference in hardness makes very little difference in performance. However given how much stuff is out in S35VN for under $100 I gotta agree. Kizer has been charging a lot for their axis lock and fat carbon, and I think that's actually where the price tag is reflected, not so much the steel.
Interesting. I've heard that some blade coating processes can mess with the hardness or temper on blades, especially cryo-treated ones that have a 350-400F temper. No clue if that's the case or how much the swing in hardness would be between coated and plain blades with all else being equal.
I did a cut test a year or so back of a lot of companies' S35VN profiled to 15 degrees with twisted sisal rope (Artisan, Boker Plus, Civivi/We, Kancept & Spyderco China). They all were surprisingly close to each other, I think there was about a 20 cut variance between the top and bottom (they averaged 700 cuts each). I didn't have a Kizer in the stuff at the time though
Some coatings require give or take 500c. So they will be better off using secondary hardening and the coating can be one of the 3 tempers.
Some coatings dont require that high of a temp but they dont usually last.
You can apply high heat tempers but they dont usually do too good with hardness in the end. Plus if you ask for ht, in china, they give you the whole ht, so I dont think you can ask for no tempers and then apply the high heat coating as the temper.
The Axis Lock copyright expired a couple years ago and now every major brand has it by a different name.
Kizer is a weird brand that puts out some good designs, a lot of bad designs, and rarely lives up to the expectations of their price points.