THE TETRARCHS OF ULTRAMAR! GUILLIMAN'S BIGGEST MISTAKE?
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- Опубліковано 29 лют 2024
- Hey everyone Rho here! Today we're discussing the Triarchs of Ultramar, as we ask if Guilliman's decision to bring these ancient positions back is a mistake?
General Spoiler Warning to begin as today we will be referencing events from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. So you have been warned!
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I think Guilli as a logistician realizes he needs a stable base to deploy from, rely, and resupply from. His motives and everything else derives from that necessity.
Reintroducing the Tectrachs is a tricky strategy, and very unpopular from those planetary govenors effected. Still, Guilliman is under utilizing Calgar's abilities. He is still the most recognised Ultramarine.
If they were to use some existing chapter masters of larger successors it would work, but would be danger close to establishing a legion
He literally sent him to be supreme commander over at Vigilus.
I've always liked the concept of Ultramar in the lore. The empire within the empire. Space Rome. However, I'm more interested in the pre-Crusade Ultramar than the current one. They had a 500 world interstellar empire established when Big E showed up. Big E was dependant on the Adeptus Mechanicus for his Crusade, but Ultramar had a bustling scientific community before joining the Imperium that did not hold to the backwards dogma of techpriests. What happened to them? How did Ultramar manage an interstellar empire during the Time of Strife? Or did they build their empire within the window of time between the ending of the Warp storms and the arrival of Big E? I have so many questions.
Guilliman built it between his father's death and the Emperor's arrival.
It went from Macragge commercing with a few worlds around to 500 worlds in just a few decades.
@@painlord2k thank you! 👍That's one question answered. 😁
@@painlord2k The time scale doesn't add up, my guy.
@@anirecapped. It never does, in WH40K.
But, If Guilliman is left without major threats, he is good enough to get 500 worlds up and running in decades.
In fact, the Ultramar part of the Empire is the best ruled and have the highest life standard of the empire.
Make sense for Guilliman to return there, get Ultramar sector free from Mortarion's plagues, and use Ultramar as a "Special Development Zone" and slowly enlarge it to increase the economic output, population and political stability of the empire of man.
I'm pretty sure he is building contingencies to get the Empire "not dependant" from the Adeptus Mechanicus industrial outputs. And these contingencies are built in Ultramar.
@@painlord2k That's not what I meant!!
G's gonna push a pencil. And the Dark Angels are technically still a legion and Dante has a legion at his command if you count all the chapters helping him right now.
In fact, he doesn’t. The Ark books and the novels make it clear the Blood Angel successors all left after RG reinforced them.
TBH, 10k Space Marines is less than a tenth of what he used to marshal back in the day...
The reason why many mortal have a right to fear the Legion isn’t because of a lack of loyalty, but the perception that why Ultramar may be a Jewel within the Realm of the Imperium that does not makes it irreplaceable to it, and the idea that Guilliman was putting to much power within his own Realm rather than the protection of the rest of the Imperium, because while Ten Thousand Space Marines on paper may not seemed like much in the grand scheme of things that still Ten Chapter who are fully supplied and ready to defend a small territory of the Imperium swore to him.
With the threats to the Imperium it would make sense to create a power base with all the threats in the area. This would make things easier to defend and fight against enemies. While I can see how this will look bad, with the current state of things though, I different strategy my work better.
but there are many hundreds of chapter masters that rule over human planets, and its even mentioned in the new lore with the rift that its even more common for whole sub-ssectors of Imperium Nihilus to sign over their worlds to chapter masters control... then why are TETRARCHS such a problem?...
Because Ultramar is governed on the tenets that Guilliman set down.
And chief among them was that Space Marines should defend, not rule.
Because governors of Ultramar had it too good they don't want to let go of their power. Think about it, the realm of Ultramar is exempted from imperial tithe, anyone in control of those systems have the benefits of being the system governor without the responsibility of a normal system governor outside of Ultramar. Gulliman should have threatened them that if they don't want to be part of Ultramar under his control then they'll all have to pay the imperial taxes.
“But the Emperor never intended it!” Ya, he didn’t intend y’all to worship him as a god either, but look where we are now. It’s my job to bring the Imperium back from the edge you allowed it to go to and devolve into. I wanted to do this the nice way, but you wanted to be greedy and more worried about your own power than the greater good of the Imperium. I made Ultramar into what it was at its peak, YOU allowed it to degrade as far as it did, despite still being the jewel of the imperium
^This.
Yet it was Guilliman that shrank the size of Ultramar just as he broke up the Space Marine legions.
And he set down their tenets of government, chief among them that Space Marines were meant to protect humanity, not rule it.
@@jonharrison9222 oh good, that only helps my point in that if HE was the one that ordered it then he is also able to resend the order. In addition to that Guilliman’s belief in that the Astartes were ONLY defenders of humanity came from the Emperor who wanted humanity to eventually rule itself. If you recall, Ultramar, since its joining the Imperium, was ruled by Guilliman and his Tetrarchs, not by humans, although he did try to listen to them.
@@sircashew1097 Gulliman built the realm of Ultramar, he put those governors on the seats and he can take them back whenever he wants. And Ultramar enjoyed a great deal of autonomy was thanks to him. If those governors don't want to follow Gulliman they're gonna have to pay the imperial tithe like any other systems outside of Ultramar must.
Mentioning the emperor making them more pissed off makes sense, especially if they were thinking in terms of the primarchs and legions is what lead the imperium to its current state. Mentioning the emperor would only remind them that it was a Primarch that caused the emperors current state.
I don't understand the reaction of the people from an in lore perspective and I think it doesn't make sense at all:
1: How come some space marines have trouble even looking the primarch in the eyes and a regular woman is talking back, even screaming at the primarch?
2: He's the Lord Regent. He has the authority to command any chapter anyway, not just his sons. Why does it suddenly matter that he stationed 8 in Ultramar while de facto commanding every other chapter in existence? It doesn't even sound unreasonable to have more than 1 chapter in such a vast part of the Imperium. It's a segmentum(?) Or the next smaller subdevision of imperial space (which should logically have more than 1 chapter guarding it anyway)
3: The High Lords could and have done the same thing, so that's not even new. They've launched entire crusades and put them under the authority of single individuals or shuffled around marines and their home worlds. Normal humans have had controle over more than just 8 chapters.
4: They are not even part of the same chapter. They don't even function as a legion, they all have their own region of space to protect like any other chapter.
5: Most people see him as the son of god and therefore embodying his devine will. It just doesn't make sense for them to question his judgement.
5,5: on that note, the Imperium is kind of a religious terror regime (just a little bit), so voicing your opposition to the son of god so openly sounds like a good way to get trialed for treason or killed outright.
6: I don't think adding 8.000 marines would cause such a strong reaction from people when he already has hundreds of thousands in his indomitus crusade.
(7: Ultramar must be an exceptionally peaceful region when one chapter was able to safeguard 500 worlds while in other books 2 chapters can't defend 2 worlds)
Putting that one in brackets because numbers have never made sense in the 40k universe anyway and I honestly don't care that much about that. It's just something you ahve to accept in 40k.
Again, I don't try to question the lore too much because there are a lot of things that don't make sense outside of 40k lore but that one doesn't even make sense within the lore to me. In fact, it probably makes more sense outside the lore. In our world people might have the gall to talk to a someone in Guillimans position like that and make such accusations but I don't see it happening within the lore.
40k Lore is like SCP Lore. They are spoken/document like ancient myths of old. It’s all true and it’s all false in some sense:
I think they were just complaining because Guilliman took control from them even though the Ultramarines were already kind of in control already. The high lords literally tried to take Guilliman out even though he was the “son of their god”.
@@AdeptKing the high lords are a breed apart of greed, but these people from ultramar really stepped too much into guilliman. i agree with op, it makes no sense
@@John-jc3ty I'll agree on that point too. Its what happens when there are a lot of writers working on one world.
This universe is written by reddit soy types. Stop expecting Tolkien.
Tetrarchs are a brilliant idea ,you would want capable ,loyal people in charge ,not only that ,by relegating power to different leaders means if 1 falls they don't all fall
I really wish Gman would take an eraser and erase the 1000 limit line on the codex astartes. "There you go i've updated the rules"
The Tectrachs of Guilliman are base from the Tectrachy of the Roman Empire.
My bet: He's preparing to conquer the Imperium for the Emperor.
he should the imperium is a cesspool of inequality and religious ignorance and inquisitorial overstep😊
Guilliman has always used Ultramar as a testing ground for how to run an Empire. Going back to the Heresy and his attempt at forming a second imperium. I think if this works he'll expand it to other sectors and give over more direct regional control to the Astartes. I know I reference this a lot, but what he said to Kantor upon meeting with the Crimson Fists and reinforcing them with Primaris "Look to your chapter Pedro, for the Imperium can ill afford to lose such defenders as you. My brother(Dorn) would be proud." or something to that effect,.
On the other topic, yeah I can see that announcing such powerful numbers directly under his control, could cause an up-stir. It's because of the Inquisition and how they dictate what knowledge is allowed into the common imperium that everyone is afraid. I think keeping them as chapters is the right thing to do, but having it a Legion size amount was wrong. If he'd announced just 5 chapters with one being a rebirth of a destroyed chapter that would have been more welcomed.
I think the Emperor scolded Guilliman for breaking the Legions originally which is why he's been secretive about what transpired, so now he's working to undo that but because of the state of the Imperium, it's not going down well with the people.
It makes me wonder what Guilliman would think of the Badab War
Guilliman having the flaw of being too controlling for his own good should stay. People already go around with the idea that Guilliman is best Primarch cuz Ultramar and Ultramarines. Also don't forget the very fact that so many of these nobles just cannot fathom that a legendary son of the God Emperor have decided that they do not have absolute control. Their inherited arrogance would never allow any of this without being outraged, no matter who. It is already well-known that people tend to be too dense to accept anything that isn't to their sole advantage.
Also, the Highlords plotting to assassinate him should have already been a clear sign that these "people" will oppose him at almost every turn and every little decision.
Dude, Guilliman was one of if the not the least controlling and authoritative among his brothers, it's just that the situation forced his hands to take control.
@@anirecapped.
I'm not talking about authority.
I'm talking about how everything needs to be by his standards. The chapters: to his design. The Imperial Navy and Guard separation: his design.
The Bureaucracy got worse, the might of the Imperium got worse, and his precious codex became the "standard", everything needs to be his way. He does not need to be the one enforcing it either.
@@lordtritus2261 You ain't really a man for nuances or contextualization for that matter, now are you??
*_"The chapters: to his design."_*
- Great, now do shade some light on what compelled him to take that measure why don't you??
*_The Imperial Navy and Guard separation: his design._*
- Again, what other choice did he have given the situation they were in??!! What was the alternative without causing another civil war between the Astartes and rest of the imperium??
*_"The Bureaucracy got worse,"_* -
That's on the high lords, not Guiliman and so ultimately, the blame should lie on the shoulders of Big E and Malcador!! Guilliman had absolutely nothing to do with the bloatware that is the Imperium Bureaucracy!!
*_the might of the Imperium got worse_*
- Well, apart from half the legions and a big chuck of imperial military jumping over to the chaos, not really.
*_and his precious codex became the "standard", everything needs to be his way._* -
Guilliman wrote the Codex as a guideline about how to astartes, was never meant to be rigidly adhered to as a gospel!! So again, that's not on Guilliman, at all.
@@anirecapped.
The Emperor tells everyone he is not a God, They worship him as one (even before his ascension)
Guilliman wrote a manual on how to do things and they started following it like it was a Holy Book to follow without thinking.
My opinion is that Guilliman is doing something like what he did with the Lords of Terra: pushing them to do what he wants them to do without realizing they are following his plan.
The Exarchy tried to overthrow Guilliman (and the will of the Emperor) and Gulliman baited them to show their hand and give his loyalists a motive to eradicate them and their followers. He was away and did nothing. It was a squabble between humans and Astartes and Custodes kept their hands clean (not the Officio Assasinorum, but they are humans - sort of).
What Guilliman could try to do here is to bait the humans of Macragge / Ultramar to complain and then bow to their pressure, retire the 8 Chapters, and then just have some danger coming forcing the people to rise up to the task or back down to the Astartes tutelage.
He built an Empire of 500 worlds in a few decades without bloodshed even if many fought against him. In many cases, he didn't even retaliate. He just made them fight him until they got tired of the futility and willingly bowed down.
@@anirecapped.
I do know why, but the fact that so much that kept the Imperium weak is covered in his finger prints is the problem.
He can't help himself but be the one in charge making every decision.
Yes, I do know that the chapters were meant to ensure another Horus event to never again occur, but that hardly did anything to help against the Beast, and neither did it allow the number of space marines to increase at all against their ever numerous foes. Instead the High Lords are the only ones who can decide if new chapters are wanted.
I do know why the Imperial Army was broken down, to limit the capability of either to secede, even though the Navy hardly has any need for an army in SPACE given the Rogue Trader fleets.
The bureaucracy, which was an apparent problem, got worse as a result. Now there's need to ask for permission for almost every little thing while others do whatever they want.
The Imperium could have recovered much of its strength despite the Forge Worlds that were lost. The Legions could have grown back up to strength to deal with any new threats. But since the depleted Legions had to devolve into chapters, they couldn't grow back at all and instead stayed in those small numbers.
I placed "standard" in quotation to indicate that it is not an enforced standard.
The one thing that Guilliman should have broken down in smaller less effective forces because of how so many became traitors were the Mechanicus. Instead they became even more independent and can decide whether or not they supply anyone at all, and are no longer required to replicate the knowledge they find.
But the biggest problem that Guilliman's tampering apparently did not consider was any kind of new or strong threat. Instead the Imperium he forced into existence is one that can only deal with current threats and stay in a status quo. In other words, complacency.
If it weren't for Dorn, knowing that the chapters would eventually fail to protect Terra made the Last Wall protocol to reform the Imperial Fists Legion that saved the Imperium spearheaded by a Primarch to defeat the Beast, the Imperium would have broken. If that was not a sign that Guilliman ironically didn't think ahead for once, I don't know what is.
Guilliman's decrees as it would seem, were temporary, but nothing is more permanent than a temporary measure.
Not as if the Imperium was a democracy prior to the Heresy. The Emperor was never very good at practicing what he preached. The key here is that the Imperium is not stable. It is facing serious threats on multiple fronts and normal humans simply cannot handle these threats. If they want to be fed into the meat grinder then by all means. But, if they want to *survive* they have to accept that godlike enemies means that you need godlike heroes.
The emperor never claimed that it was a democracy, neither was that his intention. Also remeber that the GC and how the inperium was organised was just the second step of his overall plan and a temporary situation until the webway project was completed.
@@markcoroneos7811 - Exactly the point. The video kind of gives this false feel that democracy ever existed in the Imperium outside of the Emperor's head. While it was a *long-term* objective (to a being that has lived through most of human history), it's not as if it were a political campaign promise on his or Guilliman's part. I don't see normal humans clamoring for something that nobody except Perpetuals even remember. Not with the galaxy in the midst of a total clusterf---.
Sure, power-seeking *individuals* may be angered by increasing Astartes dominance. But I don't see them as being able to muster a serious rebellion against Guilliman.
@@daniels7907 agreed haha
the imperium was centralizad in his begin
With The Lion and Guilliman Reunited. No one will try to mess with two Primarchs who literally killed off Chaos Champions left and right .
Well only Guiliman can perma kill champions
@@scuffandy8723 We know that but the Tetrachs aint daemon princes. The Lion or Popa Smurf could easily just off them at a moments notice.
@SuperUniverse sure but they would take millions of people and likely hundreds of Marines with them into the embrace of Chaos
builigamn burned nurgle's garden and ass whipped anggron and still the human contingency had the balls to rebuke him lol
@@John-jc3ty Unruly Sons tend to learn the hard way that popa smurf may be the best administrator but he knows how to fight a war like horus :)
One might point out that Horus’s fall began when he learned that ordinary humans would be ruling the imperium and its worlds instead of Primarchs and Space Marines.
And all marines raised in the post-heresy period are taught that they were created to defend humanity, not to rule over it. RG is breaking his own rules, to say nothing of the Emperor’s.
I think that the techrachy was and is a good thing as it ensured efficient and effective governance
Thank you for the information.
G man practically have 2 legions at his disposal, Dante's and all the chapters from the Ultra/Primaries Marines. He is definitively securing Ultramar and Imperium Nihlus. It seems like he is building up the military in parts of the Imperium that is 100% loyal to him. He seems to build up to dislodge the Lords of Terra and the Ecclesiarchy from being a threat to his powerbase while at the same time securing wast parts of the Imperium and expanding it.
The Lion: Have you seen my based Lion's Guard . Peasants?! Nonsense
Lionel and Gulliman: "You sure you want to do this?"
Ultramar governors:"Yes, we are sick of listening to you telling us what to do"
Gulliman:"Fine then, you are now no longer part of Ultramar. Inquisitor, hand them the list of men and materials they'll have to contribute to the astra militarum annually, their tithe exemption has been revoked."
Ultramar governors:"No wait, we take that back"
Gulliman:"Too late, changing the documents will take another year and I don't have time for that. Should have thought about that before you bite the hand that feeds you."
@@minhducnguyen9276
Lion El: Asmodai!!!!
@@joeford5181
"Make them repent, and pay their taxes."
@@minhducnguyen9276
Not our taxes
@@joeford5181 "We only own a rock anyway, they can't tax us"
I think he announced them both together on purpose to gauge a reaction to repealing the codex and forming legions again, which DID NOT go over well and will have to think of something else. The tetrarchs arent a problem its the corruption and greed of the rulers atm that are, luckly the Lion is handling it almost the same anywhere he goes on standing orders from pappa E. So while normally they dont see eye to eye on empires and everything, they can for sure agree alot of the rulers are inept or corrupt and either way theyd have to go.
he may not have any other choice but to expand the tetrarchy imperium wide😊
Hate on Our Lord commander if you must but none can doubt or question his ability to organise and manage any situation, he is impressive .
10:32 Conviction? Courage? Guts? No. Stupidity. These people simply have no idea *who* they're speaking to. They're too used to being at the top. Too used to the status quo.
Exactly, it isn’t courage, it’s impudence and ignorance
They were just fortunate that it was Guilliman and not some other primarch.
He built the seats they are sitting on he can take it back whenever he needs it.
@@anirecapped. They just forgot that if they leave Ultramar they'd be regarded as a normal system and will have to pay imperial tithe. Only systems belonging to the realm of Ultramar are exempted from imperial tithe. Gulliman should have withdrawn that privilege when he dissolved the realm of Ultramar after the heresy. To be part of Ultramar has its benefits but there are obligations to it too.
@@minhducnguyen9276 Damn straight.
Some broad arguing with Guilliman to his face is crazy. Gman makes Dante feel like he should pay homage and the writers think people are gonna buy the combined form of Jesus and Caesar Augustus having to plead his case 🤦♂️
Add it to the list of baffling GW writing decisions
I must have missed a video, who are the unnumbered sons and where did they come from?
The Primaris before being assigned to chapters.
It's interesting that rowboat points to the survival of ultramar, reinforcing that his beliefs are rights, but not considering that his desire for control and order was one of the reasons the imperium stopped growing and decayed for 10,000 years. Was it really his influence of the codex astartes that allowed other chapters to survive? Or was the stagnation of their culture and methods diluted and suffered because of it.
Guillibleman is a good man, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
*_" that his desire for control and order was one of the reasons the imperium stopped growing and decayed for 10,000 years.'_*
- Ok, that is wholly untrue.
Why control and order caused the stagnation of the Imperium - and why you imagine it does - is perhaps not immediately clear.
Rather it seems the opposite; that the near-total absence of rational control or order caused it.
@@jonharrison9222 @jonharrison9222 imagine if you will a boss who micromanages everything you and your team does. They put so many restrictions that you can barely do your job. A good manager will identify a teams strengths and make them shine, a bad manager will micromanage and control because they feel they can do better. It's my head cannon that all roboutes decisions have been great for ultramar but by forcing ultramarine doctrines in other chapters have caused them to not live up to their potential. I mean, The emperor made each of the chapters to be unique and allowed them to conduct war as they see fit. Yet roboute forces all his allies into his cookie cutter mold. One could say they survived because of his decisions, but one could argue that those that ignored roboutes orders survived just fine, and many examples of having to go against them to survive (last wall protocol).
It's not a smart move at all and just backfired!🤔
If the empire was always meant to be governed by mortal men, was the emperor going to abdicate if the grand crusade had reached a successful conclusion? And, who would he have surrendered power to? If your response is that the emperor is a mortal man, my response is he should have died uncalculated millenia ago.
That was the emperors stated goal with implementing the highlords. I dont think he ever meant to abdicate the throne but he would have mortals as a buffer between him and the common people. At least that was my perception of it. Given the commoners the illusion of self rule while he sat at the top. I think it was also that he didnt want a race of space marines and the "racisim" for lack of better term that would result between trans humans and normal humans.
Anybody who would say that Big E is a mortal is rather silly...
Essentially yes. The senatorum imperialis was set up before the emperor was stuck on the golden throne. Now whether he planned to outright step down as emperor we don't know, but he did plan to release his hold on power.
@@NigraeLegionesso, Managed Democracy? TO THE SHIPS - THE CRUSADE IS BACK ON - ALL HAIL SUPER EARTH AND THE GOD-EMPEROR OF DEMOCRACY
@@NigraeLegionesso, Managed Democracy? TO THE SHIPS - THE CRUSADE IS BACK ON - ALL HAIL SUPER EARTH AND THE GOD-EMPEROR OF DEMOCRACY
Based
Ultramar Prussia of the imperium 💪💪
still, supposing the fear is right, the moment he said "the mother fucking emperor ordered it" they should have shut up immediately
"The Imperium was always intended to be run by mortal humans, that was always the Emperor's vision" except Ultramar which was exempted. This video was a bit of straw man clickbait. Which is fine, because it's enjoyable.
Tetrarch Felix is a G
Tetrachs in the Roman Empire eventually led to civil wars. Just saying.
Wolf Lord, I doubt you will respond to this. A few years ago, maybe 5-8, you did a video on whythe videos comparing sci fi universes were silly, as 40k will always win because it is supposed to be the blown out of proportions satire of our society. I can’t find it in your history, if you didn’t remove it. Do you still happen to to have a link?
Quite a rash decision from guilliman- does marneus really doubt him in that moment?
Guilliman is always right.
Yeah, Bad move G Man..... power corrupts!
🫡🫡🫡🫡🫡
Guilliman was always a "mini Emperor" and doing this it only shows the hypocrisy of his codex .I really dont think the New Old Lion will see this change has amicable has you said the new lion seems to be a diplomat and more humane and empathic.
What hypocrisy?? Ever heard of a thing called *_martial law_* ?? It is just that. Guilliman taking charge is just a temporary thing. He needs to unfuckk the damn clusterfuckk that is the 40k imperium before he can relegate the power to the mortals. What is so hypocritical about it??
Algorithm comment
First
Ultramarines would be the goat if it wasnt for their terribly cheesy chapter name
I'll never stop preaching. CALGAR should of died. Would of been an amazing lorr shakeup and make abaddon look actually threatening. Ventris or Cato take up as Chapter Master. Instead of lame ass Calagr model.
You see this backwards. All the lore serves to sell minis, not the other way around.