Copyright case - Ironman 4x4 vs Offroad Animal

Поділитися
Вставка
  • Опубліковано 16 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 79

  • @EthosAtheos
    @EthosAtheos Рік тому +6

    Here as an IT worker and an advocate for privacy and encryption. I will get into companies monitoring employees social media. It should absolutely be illegal, period. This constant creep of our jobs into our personal lives is totally unacceptable and should stop. Unless you are the face of the company (pitch men, executives, board, actor, etc.) you company has no business in your private life. Although social media is public to an extent, it is often an extension of our private lives. Businesses need to keep their grubby mitts off our private lives.
    Another issue is companies should not be able to use webcams to monitor employees while working remotely. It should be illegal, it is an invasion of our privacy. If a company wants to use webcam monitoring it should be required to pay you for your work space at market value for the sq footage. Just like they pay for an office space in a building.

    • @L2SFBC
      @L2SFBC  Рік тому +2

      I agree, and that's why I made it the third lesson point. I would advise people to never, ever use any work-supplied device for anything personal. Never log in to any social media account, never send a personal email from your work email account. Seperate the two entirely and completely. Related to this as you say is monitoring; everything you do can now be monitored, even the speed you type, and idle time on a laptop, as well as where you are when driving plus what you're doing with the controls. There's no going back, this is the new world. As usual the legislation is behind the tech.

  • @tungstentwohundredandtwent7007
    @tungstentwohundredandtwent7007 Рік тому +10

    This is all pretty ironic when you consider how Ironman entered the bullbar market 15 - 20 years ago. There was zero “design” about their original products just pure plagiarism, reverse engineering, and dumbing down, primarily of ARB products.

  • @470Matty
    @470Matty Рік тому +7

    This just makes me despise Ironman and their products even more. As David said, a simple cease and desist letter would have sufficed and saved all this bullshit and animosity,,

  • @abstragic4216
    @abstragic4216 Рік тому +5

    This was well done to get both sides of the story but I thought that the IM chap was given an easier time, possibly because he has demonstrated the means and willingness to take people to court. Both were quite skilful at putting on the spin. As usual, the truth will be somewhere in between. I have my heart set on a ORA Toro bar and this won't change as a result of watching this.

  • @MiniLuv-1984
    @MiniLuv-1984 Рік тому +6

    Painful to watch, painful for all involved, except as David pointed out, the lawyers.
    I'd look at Ironman 4x4 differently had they just sent a letter to Offroad Animal instead of litigating like a spoilt brat.

  • @operation4wheelz
    @operation4wheelz Рік тому +4

    Since David split from Uneek, I’ve found him very unprofessional in the public eye. The IM bloke just seemed far more genuine and truthful.

  • @user-fr5pl1zf5f
    @user-fr5pl1zf5f Рік тому +5

    Both the ORA and Ironman interviewers contradicted each other. We may never know the truth. However, the fact that ORA paid penalities to Ironman leads me to believe Ironman is telling the truth

    • @jayd3931
      @jayd3931 Рік тому +1

      People settle out of court all the time, it's not an admission of guilt. It's a business decision, and court cases are very expensive and time consuming.

  • @jake_80
    @jake_80 Рік тому +2

    As a designer, I’d love to see the process that ORA and IM used to get to the final design of these bars.
    There must a design trail of Concepts, revisions, execution and final product.
    I also find interesting that the angular design popped up around 2019ish - I’m guessing after the Cybertruck design had been released???

  • @michaelbansagi3779
    @michaelbansagi3779 Рік тому +2

    So... Life hack....You go to linked in.. you put in a company name and scroll through the employee titles. From the range of titles on display you get a fair idea how much of a company is weighted to sales/sourcing and how much is design and R&D. Judge for yourself. Not an exact science, but a decent insight. 😊

  • @johnemerson5383
    @johnemerson5383 Рік тому +4

    Just be careful about stating things like the court ruled. It didn't. The matter was settled without judgement. The court didn't get the opportunity to rule of whether ORA did anything wrong. I'm disappointed in Ironman in the way they handled it.

  • @atoieno
    @atoieno Рік тому +2

    Good expose Robert. IP is important and valuable. The patent system was designed to protect this...but in this area, as Mr Jacob alludes to a bull bar is a bull bar and patent protection doesn't protect detailed design.

  • @baumie461
    @baumie461 Рік тому +5

    Add to that you put the old Ironman bullbar up against ARB.🤔
    I remember back in 2010 when I was considering an Ironman bullbar how similar they looked to ARB and how they could get away with that 🤷‍♂️

    • @SalvoDan
      @SalvoDan Рік тому +2

      The Summit Bar is a basic, classic design. It looks similar to TJM, ECB, AFN, and Ironman 4x4 because there are only so many ways you can have one crossbeam and three loops. They have a common aesthetic because they all have a common heritage of vehicles that they designed for.

    • @baumie461
      @baumie461 Рік тому +2

      @Dan Woods disagree mate, but that's ok. I remember what I remember and for mine it was pretty much the same bar except cheaper WAY cheaper. I bought the Ironman bullbar because I couldn't see the sense in spending more on the same ARB bar......suffice to say, I don't think I'll buy another Ironman bar again. 👍

    • @tungstentwohundredandtwent7007
      @tungstentwohundredandtwent7007 Рік тому +1

      @@SalvoDan having spent some time in the industry, specifically with TJM and subsequently ARB I’d write that comment slightly differently with accuracy in mind. ARB pioneered the classic tapered, multi fold wing, loop bullbar. TJM were probably the first competitor to adopt a similar tapered wing but Ironman blatantly plagiarised much more of the detail of the ARB design. From memory there were a few employee moves from ARB to Ironman around that time but the plagiarism and almost complete absence of original thought came right from the top. There’s a little more diversity in design these days but there’s a good dash of hypocrisy from Mr Ironman in his hand on heart bleating today.

  • @SteveBurns80
    @SteveBurns80 Рік тому +4

    Oh please, what about IM copying ARB's deluxe bar for all vehicles back around 2010 ? It was almost a carbon copy. 😂

  • @NasTimeAdventures
    @NasTimeAdventures Рік тому +11

    Interesting. Truth is we may never know the truth. Each person will decide for themselves what their truth is based on who they believe. Personally though, Offroad Animal seem more confident in their response. And seem to have provided more information to support themselves. Ironman in my opinion was more reserved in their response and had some flawed comments. Like did they prove the plans were their own or did they buy them from someone else as suggested. If they did buy them, why? When they had so much invested in scanning for themselves. Can Offroad animal prove the plans were not owned by ironman at the time. At the end of the day, all this happenned because someone got access to plans that everyone else can get anyway. How much time was really saved? So many questions really. But like I said, we may never know the truth. Each bull bar should be judged on it's own merits. Seems this matter could have been settled without courts. Court arguments benefit few other than the lawyers.

    • @L2SFBC
      @L2SFBC  Рік тому +2

      Well, here's proof that Ironman scan their own vehicles. 20th June 2022, clearly an Ironman vehicle being scanned, so they do own the IP. The court would have looked into that as well. And, you don't settle out of court if you're in the process of winning. It doesn't matter whether everyone else can get it - IP is IP, and this was early access to a very new, hot vehicle, the next-gen Ranger. How much time saved is irrelevant too.
      facebook.com/Ironman4x4au/photos/a.207852132618507/7532865860117061/

    • @NasTimeAdventures
      @NasTimeAdventures Рік тому +6

      @@L2SFBC I've been personally involved in cases where the company was winning and settled. Often, and sadly, companies often decide to settle because it is cheaper. Regardless of whether they want to prove themselves right or innocent. As for time being irrelevant, it is not what Ironman said in the video.

    • @StasonSmith
      @StasonSmith Рік тому +2

      If were a successful big company I would not go after a small company chasing files that anyone can get access to. I would just buy the competition out and make money on both brands. again looks like ironman losing big on the market.

    • @L2SFBC
      @L2SFBC  Рік тому +1

      Time was relevant as ORA said they wanted to quickly mock up their coming-soon pics. However from the perspective of whether it was infringed it either is infringed, or not...how long it was used for doesn't change the black and white yes/no to that question. Yes, people do settle even if they think they can win, but chances are they wouldn't.

    • @StasonSmith
      @StasonSmith Рік тому +2

      @@L2SFBC for good company its cheaper to settle with little loss because they dont have to waste time. Its a lesson to learn for ORA for the future before they go big. Again we talking about data scans that anyone can get not a specific design. Its a stupidity of using company property for personal use. I

  • @MrWarnabrother
    @MrWarnabrother Рік тому +1

    Most punters can see the similarities between Ironman's Raid bars and the Offroad Animal bars.. the Raid bars appear to be very influenced by the ORA ones, but this may be a coincidence!?!
    Why did Tom thank YOU for your time Robert? Did they ask you to make this video?

    • @L2SFBC
      @L2SFBC  Рік тому +1

      No the video was my own idea. Thanking people is what Tom does. If it was Ironman's idea they wouldn't have wanted me to get the ORA view would they?

  • @albertopamintuan6742
    @albertopamintuan6742 Рік тому +3

    It would have rounded off the video if you also included an independent expert in this field.

    • @L2SFBC
      @L2SFBC  Рік тому +6

      If I can find one, I may do that as a follow-up and also answer queries put in the comments. Experts are hard to find but tend to appear in droves a few seconds after publishing. Such is the way of the world.

    • @Mick_4591
      @Mick_4591 Рік тому

      This Tom Jzcob needz to pull his finger out of you k ow where and get on to his " dealers" to pill their fingers out of you kn ow where as I M spendz heaps of $$$ on sponcerships and for dealers to be so bloody lazy to follow up contacts via their web sites " contact form" 18 months and no one from IM has ever bothered tocontact me even tho they have my details.

    • @L2SFBC
      @L2SFBC  Рік тому +11

      Did you write your request for sponsorship in the same manner you wrote this comment?

    • @christurner68
      @christurner68 Рік тому +1

      Robert< why was you tone questioning Tom so different ? You were not so strong with Tom, why not?

  • @StasonSmith
    @StasonSmith Рік тому +7

    I never bought anything from Ironman and never will, it looks like to me they are losing on the market to ORA if they use this kind of method to fight competition.

    • @MatthewPerkins88
      @MatthewPerkins88 Рік тому +4

      disclaimer. I'm an ex Ironman 4x4 employee, but haven't worked there for almost 7 years. BUT copywrite and IP needs to be defended to maintain ongoing ownership of that IP/Copywrite. Not doing so would risk losing ownership of their work, and making it open to others to use.

    • @StasonSmith
      @StasonSmith Рік тому

      @@MatthewPerkins88 agree with you, but they talking about data scan that anyone can buy from that person in thailand. Stealing design and manufacturing product is a stupid move, but its not design we talking about.

    • @Sabumnim666
      @Sabumnim666 Рік тому +1

      David is not making much sense in that he firstly claims to not know of the contractors employment history then later said they were aware of his employment history. If I ran a company such as OFF Road Animal and some just happened to appear with data that would benefit my I would certainly ask how he obtained it and if I were to go into a working relationship I would have had a contract that protected me from being duped by this oh so fortunate appearance of valuable data.
      Also if you have done even a small amount of body language to be suspicious of a person telling you a story then the constant looking up and to the side is common indicatory that what is being said may well be some what fabricated.

    • @MatthewPerkins88
      @MatthewPerkins88 Рік тому +2

      @@StasonSmith but ironman 4x4 scan their own vehicles and thus own the IP for those scans. Even if you can buy it elsewhere doesn't mean it's okay to use theirs.

    • @SalvoDan
      @SalvoDan Рік тому

      I think that this is more of a case of an established company with years of experience and investment protecting themselves from an upstart company.
      David should know better than to let a contractor compromise the company's integrity like this. It is a shame that ORA are this lackadaisical about protecting themselves from IP liabilities.
      Cowboy companies projecting their own inadequacies on their competitors is not an new thing, but punters falling for the cowboys marketing is.

  • @TheKnobCalledTone.
    @TheKnobCalledTone. Рік тому +1

    I have no idea why this is in my UA-cam recommendations as I'll probably never get around to buying a 4x4 (even tho I reckon they're pretty cool)... but legal slapfights are always fun to watch. This should be good for a laugh.

  • @HardstylePete
    @HardstylePete Рік тому +2

    This is a great example of why nobody should sign into personal accounts on a company phone.

    • @kayinoue2972
      @kayinoue2972 Рік тому

      I thought the lesson was to not behave unethically as a professional.

  • @stolzhammer3239
    @stolzhammer3239 Рік тому

    They settled for a significant sum. I think that says it all. As an aside, IM aren't immune from accusations of ripping off other firms including Safari snorkels.

  • @dtnicholls1
    @dtnicholls1 Рік тому +5

    3d scanning isnt a difficult thing to do. Anyone at home can do it with a little effort and a few hundred dollars.
    A ball bearing, 3 rotary encoders, a switch, a microcontroller, some aluminium tube, a few bearings and access to a milling machine at a makerspace and you can produce an arm that will allow you to produce a point cloud to within 0.2mm accuracy for a car.
    It would be awfully time consuming, but absolutely achievable if you want to.
    To try and say otherwise just isnt true.
    Pretty easy to spot the similarities between the two bar styles as well. They do look stylistically identical. There may be material differences, structural differences etc, but the old pub test would say they came out of the same mould.
    If it takes a trained eye to say otherwise, well that in itself says something doesnt it.
    For all that though, can't deny the emgineer took IP.

    • @StasonSmith
      @StasonSmith Рік тому +4

      The way I undestood that guy in thailand made scan and sold to everyone who asked, file didnt say specificly who owned it. When ironman discovered they got win situation because of device being used they own, they aksed that guy in thailand put their name on it so it looked like they owned it exclusively.

    • @13breno13
      @13breno13 Рік тому

      @@StasonSmith that's OR's account but IM say that they didn't purchase the rights, performed the scan in house themselves, and based on the file name and the messaging with OR and contractor reffered to it as 'IM scans'. Hard to know exactly as we don't have all the information or access to the file itself and the conversation but seems pretty trusting of OR to use it if it was available free elsewhere or easy enough to do themselves.

    • @StasonSmith
      @StasonSmith Рік тому

      @@13breno13 ORA made a mistake and Ironman found an opportunity that's all.

  • @tonysmith9548
    @tonysmith9548 Рік тому +2

    Thanks, I like that. Wait until AI is developing all these things then we can blame the Terminator for our woes.
    On a side note, do you own a Jayco Jpod, I saw it in your background filters.

    • @L2SFBC
      @L2SFBC  Рік тому

      No I don't own a Jpod, but I did borrow one for a EV vs diesel tow test which you can watch here. ua-cam.com/video/AnXH2lqW4Hg/v-deo.html

  • @drgloverable
    @drgloverable Рік тому

    Would love to know the names of the companies David Fitzpatrick mentioned. Winbo in China? Ksc in Thailand?

    • @benthepi
      @benthepi Рік тому +1

      Winbo-Dongjan is a manufacturer in China that also makes rebranded or Brand-B Bullbars under license for some companies in Australia along with Nudge Bars, rear bumpers, side steps, and Roll Bars. KSC makes similar products, but based in Thailand. Other companies that make Bullbars under license or rebadges are Piak and Jungle in Thailand, but have been breaking out recently with their own brand in Australian stores.

  • @baumie461
    @baumie461 Рік тому +2

    Interesting that ironman talks about not being "morally bankrupt" yet searched through another person's social media account 🙄

    • @SalvoDan
      @SalvoDan Рік тому +1

      Viewing someones Social Media account is not "morally bankrupt".
      A Social Media account is not owned by the account holder, it is owned by the Social Media provider. If you not paying for a product, you are the product.

    • @baumie461
      @baumie461 Рік тому +2

      @Dan Woods seems we have different values I guess.....

    • @Pat.Mustard
      @Pat.Mustard Рік тому +1

      It was a work phone.

    • @rosscobrah8629
      @rosscobrah8629 Рік тому

      @@SalvoDan you're such a gronk mate. They were looking at his private emails and messages which were not on there when he left the company. They were obviously looking at every email and social media message he ever sent since leaving Ironman! That includes nude photos from and to his girlfriends, intimate messages, priviledged emails with solicitors, doctors, etc. This is not legal in any way, shape, or form. If this guy wasn't a complete moron, he would be successfully sueing Ironman.

    • @baumie461
      @baumie461 Рік тому

      @@Pat.Mustard suppose they could go shopping with his credit card details as it's a "work phone" 🤷‍♂️

  • @roberthay7554
    @roberthay7554 Рік тому

    Not sure why the ORA guy did this - some of his comments invited another court proceeding

  • @johnphillips519
    @johnphillips519 Рік тому

    So reinventing the wheel and claiming its your design?🤔

  • @brentonl2631
    @brentonl2631 Рік тому

    Thank God I'm not into pimping my 4x4 out such a mine field.

  • @6226superhurricane
    @6226superhurricane Рік тому

    well i was skeptical that david would use any part of ironmans design and from what was in the video if you take him at his word he only used the scan of the vehicle so essentially the measurements of a ford ranger that's accessible to anyone. (you can buy a scanner for 2k which is more than accurate enough for a scan to model a preview bar)
    i think tom is being disingenuous about how much it effected ironman and the tiny violin and scolding was a bit over the top.
    now if ironman had evidence david took one of their actual bar designs changed it a bit and said this is an ora bar then i'd agree with tom and the legal action.

  • @christurner68
    @christurner68 Рік тому

    Priceless coming from iron man who have not played nice in the industry either. Eg alucab………

  • @christurner68
    @christurner68 Рік тому

    Just goes to show how bitvchy nothing industry is, this topic is not the only one. It is the same in the boating industry.

  • @Pat.Mustard
    @Pat.Mustard Рік тому +1

    ORA didn’t do their due diligence (or did but took the risk anyway). Either way, It’s not a good look.

  • @peterspurway-smith8597
    @peterspurway-smith8597 2 місяці тому

    No crime here move on bigger life Delamere, ya fucking goose's

  • @davidjustice9036
    @davidjustice9036 Рік тому +2

    both companies made in China, so much for supporting Manurfacturing Australia

  • @johnallen3555
    @johnallen3555 Рік тому

    give the man a bigger shovel

  • @aaronsummerlin9121
    @aaronsummerlin9121 Рік тому +1

    Please don't make anymore videos of this type.

  • @babeyoulove1883
    @babeyoulove1883 Рік тому +2

    Why the Offroad Animal interview is been removed?

    • @L2SFBC
      @L2SFBC  Рік тому

      Refer description

    • @babeyoulove1883
      @babeyoulove1883 Рік тому

      @@L2SFBC Thank you. Sorry, such a rookie mistake.

  • @suzukijoe6476
    @suzukijoe6476 Рік тому +2

    Robert do you mind, as myself being and industry type person, stirring some shit in this case? Those that know me would know that coming to the defense of David Fitzpatric and Offroad Animal would be the last thing I would do. Hell, I'd rather go for an un-lubricated colonoscopy than say good things about David. BUT, there is more to this than the average Joe would know. Now feel free to pass this onto Tom Jacobs. For Tom to get on a high horse and say that Ironman design everything without cloning products by other companies makes me wet myself laughing. Ironman developed a mantra of cloning other manufacturers products to 'get to market'. I'm pretty sure ARB products back in the day were bought, sent off, scanned, and cloned to get to market. It has only been in the past couple of years, through rigorous poaching by Ironman from other companies, that they now have the capabilities to design their own non cloned items. Please Tom, get off your high horse about being a play by the rules family owned company, and admit that previous to this your design mantra was to clone ARB. Should the court have found Offroad Animal guilty of defamation against Ironman due to not being original? Hell f@#king no. Feel free to contact me Robert if you need more info.