I would like to thank you Your efforts do not go in vain God bless you always keep up the good work your doing a great job Perhaps you can let the people know that helpful critiques help everyone but bitter comments help no one
I have same D-17, 10543 hrs. Use non alcohol gas, use lead additive which lubes valves. Check your sentiment bowl screen. My load jet is set between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 turns. It had to be spark or fuel. Enjoyed your video, brings back a lot of memories. I’m talking to you while watching, check this or that. Get another set of points, once you file them, they burn. Good learning experience for you. Good old tractor. Thanks for sharing.
It's so funny watching you experiment your way through and testing the terms, In the 60's what your doing was a way of life in the country. Really good job.
Great job. I'm 71, I used to go to my Uncle John tractor shop. I can remember as a kid seeing a tractor split apart. Now I know more than I did as a kid.
The sweet smell of success!! Always good to know your way around your tractor, so all the extras, maybe not necessary this time, but get you higher up on the learning curve and will help you trouble shoot in the future.
Agreed on checking the battery. Check your battery cables too. Are the connections pristine clean at both the battery and terminal ends? Take the bolt out where the cable is grounded to the frame. You may need a wire brush on a rotary drillmotor to clean the rust there. Someone may have replaced the cables with an el-cheapo set as well. When you feel like really taking a dare, purchase a cheap timing light and give it a go at checking the timing.
That's awesome. I love tinkering with old stuff. Trying to see if it will ever run. And the naysayers it will never run, trash it. All it needs is some TLC and yes even that gets aggravating every know and again just take a break and come back later and try again. Way cheaper than a new shiny one
Brings back memories of my father repairing the carb of our BF Minneapolis Moline on the kitchen table. Every spring he had to change the gasket. He eventually ended up using one of those old cardboard coke containers and it worked.
Glad you got it going. We just spent 20.00 on a seal that doesn't belong on our tiller, even though it was supposed to fit. Lol The at home mechanic struggle is real! Great video.
The points problem is quite common today. Also you need to put a little lube on the distributor cam to prevent rapid rubbing block wear. There is a special grease for this. You showed real determination Good Job for a first timer.
The carb needle was definitely the problem. The original points probably just needed to be filed down. Lots of new parts are China made junk so use the old parts for as long as you can. Still, you got it running. Great job!
Also, be sure to use ethanol free gas and put some stabilizer in it. Cleaning out your gas tank and putting an inline fuel filter and shutoff valve may not be a bad idea.
Good morning Evan and Rebecca, patience is one of your best tools. Searching out the correct way takes patience. The wrong parts get costly. We all have lots of extra parts on hand that don’t fit what we own. In the end you have the tractor running and that’s what matters. Sure glad you were able to save the carburetor and fix the points problem. Both have to be precise and then they work so good. Close only works in horse shoes and hand grenades 🤗. Thanks for sharing with us and glad you came out on top.
Great tractor repair, the mistakes make it a better vid, the more you work on it will make it your best friend and look forward to see you running all those attachments with the old girl.
Remember that these old gals have solid lifters. Do not forget to set your valves. You should go to Tractor Supply to get an I & T manual for your tractor.
In my mind, it is amazing to me that you can STILL get a carburetor kit for a tractor made in 1959 ... that's incredible. And sooner or later, all those parts you replaced would require replacement anyway ... so you got that done and out of the way. I know this was a frustrating adventure. Just be glad it wasn't a major health issue like some folks have to deal with ...
Glad you got it running, I have to tune up my old TO35 Ferguson so I feel your pain, Do not know where I heard it or learned it, but somewhere along the road of life, I was told after you install the points, take a thin piece of cardboard, like a part of the box the points come in, drag it between the points, this action cleans some type coating off the point contacts, Again I do not know where I got the information, Good job on getting it running,
My first car was a 1964 Chevy Belair. I learned how to tune it up, myself. In Junior high I took small engines, I learned so much. Love watching your video. I never herd o points having a coating, but they might do it now to extend the shelf life.
I appreciate you taking the time to film everything, even your struggles. I am getting ready to do this on my 1962 A/C D-17 series 3 next weekend after my parts show up.
Great job ! Shouldn't need to file all new points yet not a bad idea !!!!! Happy to see you got it going !!!!- i have a d14 that probably needs the same love and attention !!!!! Thanks for the inspiration to get er done !!!!!! Love your channel !!!!!
Have run and maintained a WD45 which has the same engine as a D17 for 50 years. ( Tractor was purchased new by my father in 1955 and is still used regularly on my farm.) 9 times out of 10 when it is not running properly or refuses to start the problem is electrical. The coil is where I start as it will fail in damp conditions. I try to keep a spare coil on hand but have got the tractor running by simply removing the coil and warming it a very low heat in my wifes oven. Replacing the ignition wires every 4 or 5 years also helps.
Again, love the videos and enjoy watching you two working side by side. It's refreshing to see a couple doing what makes you both happy. Keep up the great work and best of luck in the future. Chris from Brenham Texas.
Nice sequence of walking us thru the repair steps. "now lets see if that will start" Nope.. now lets try X and Y .. It makes for a great show! Cheers Mac
Good job, seems like I remember my Grandpa using a small piece of sand paper on the new points before installing them. Looks like you are taking away some useful knowledge from this
Points usually need to have contact surfaces cleaned when installed. You need to put some grease on the back side of the rubbing block where it rides on the distributor shaft to prevent wear.
I enjoy your videos Evan, Thanks. I grew up in Illinois on 186 acre Farm. I now live in Florida and just bought 28 acres in GA. Going to plant Hay as well. Keep up the great work.
Awesome video that’s no bad looking AC tractor I have watched some of your other videos you are making he homestead look good looking forward to the next video y’all stay safe
You'll have a lot less trouble and cost with the Allis Chalmers than you would trying to maintain the mechanicals and wiring on a modern tractor. Service it properly, keep it clean, shed it always and it will probably see you out, old as it is. Col the cornstar's tractors are 30 - 40 years old and look and drive like new. He repairs everything and polishes them every year and they shine !
I spent a lot of my first 30 years on a tractor with a loader just like that one! Always like the D17' s. Finally got a skid loader it was so much easier and faster to load with.
This just popped up on the same day I broke my 5020 Allis Chalmers. I had just reinforced the from bucket arms. I broke the back left arm then snapped connecting bolts that connect the front axle (4x4) to the block. I'm bummed, but glad to watch your build. Nice
Love the old Allis tractors. We threw a timing light on our D17 and D19 after new plugs and points....made a big difference on how they start. Hit the key and fires right up without grinding the starter. Congrats on your victory.
Good job, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, replacing the extra parts won't hurt a thing. I'm like you I think it was the carburetor. Great job. Jimmy
You made the first classic mistake (for an amateur mechanic) that's working on two or more things at the same time. When it failed the first try, you had no idea where to start looking.
Excellent video . You're a better man than me . There is no way that I would have the patience to do something like that . Changing points . Brings me back to old days when cars had points . I would have used that new axe on the table and let that carb have it . LOL Better yet I'd tell my dad he needs to buy a bigger tractor and I know of someone that would buy his old one . LOL You can hear the rain hitting the steel roofing . It's loud .
You might want to find an old dwell meter. When working on old breaker-point ignition systems, keep in mind that setting the points by gapping with a feeler gauge gives you a starting point. Dwell meters are available at flea markets and yard sales for pretty cheap. I bought my SUN Diagnostic Center, new, back in 1963... no doubt you can find one of those still working for about 1/1,000th of the price I paid. At any rate, once you get your engine running, then set the dwell angle. I'm guessing the spec will be somewhere between 37 to 43 degrees. Then you can set the timing. Take note of the order of the tasks... point gap, dwell, timing. Good luck on your new adventure. In a few years you'll be one of the few who still knows how a carburetor works.
It’s aggravating but you’ll know the old girl well and it’ll make troubleshooting easier down the road. My ‘53 Ford was very reliable but need a carb cleaning every now and then.
AC used 2 different carbs. Marvel was the most common, but when I had an engine fire several years ago, the dealer put a Zenith on as he thought they were better on my 175. Also, last summer I put in 3 different set of points and every one was junk. I switched to electronic and wished I had done it years ago.
Yep, went thru the same issue on my old Ford backhoe. First with cheap points from the Rural King, then the good ones from NAPA. Finally bought a cheap electronic ignition kit from fleabay and my ignition problems went away...
You are doing a pretty good job, whenever you set up your point gap you should run a piece of white paper between the gap with the points closed. What this does it removes any dirt that you're feelers guage may have had. Also try to get the point gap as close as you can. If it off enough the gap can change the ignition timing. Have fun buddy
Very good video. I had a similar issue with starting on a car, years ago. Turned out to be a bad condenser (brand new). So goes to show you sometimes the new parts are not perfect.
Evan, sometimes you buy parts that are new but old stock. points will sometimes get a slight film between where they make contact and need to be cleaned. a little sanding with crokers cloth or a fine file will clean them. never touch the contacts.
Of all the points I changed on the vehicles I owned prior to 1988, I never had to polish the point contacts. I just installed them and the vehicle started right up.
Great job! I kind of cringed when I saw you working on both the fuel system and the ignition system at the same time (assuming that it would at least start prior to beginning). Believe me, I've made that mistake before. As far as the points, I learned how to change/adjust them at an early age. My first truck (bought when I was just 14 years old) was a 1963 Chevy that had points, carb and a mechanical fuel pump. One of the best things that my father gave me was an actual shop manual (not a Chilton's or Hayne's manual common today) that had all of the information that I needed. Keep in mind, there was no internet or UA-cam in the mid 70's so the book is/was all that I had (along with my father's experience to guide me). I learned how everything worked on that truck and did it all myself through my high school years. I would love to find an older model gas tractor to resurrect and use on my property. It can be frustrating working on that older stuff, yet satisfying when you make it work.
I'm impressed with your attention to detail and the concept of filming everything as you disassemble and rebuild. As for your mistake with the very small needle valve... Its all part of the learning curve(s). In the end I suspect you'll be pleased that you "over engineered" your repair job as you now know what's available, what works and what might need tweaking before its perfect. You done good!! Keep 'er up!! That ole Allis Chalmers will most likely serve you well for some time to come.
Nice job. I say if you plan on keeping it a while, you may as well upgrade like you did. so, glad it all worked out. I am impressed you did the carb rebuild. I am always afraid to jump into those projects. afraid I will end up breaking something that makes it worse instead of better. or.. would miss something so small yet so frustrating like the points that wouldn't work. grrrrrr.
$200.00 in parts is alot cheaper than a new tractor payment plus the knowledge you learned.....priceless...Nice job.
I would like to thank you
Your efforts do not go in vain God bless you always keep up the good work your doing a great job
Perhaps you can let the people know that helpful critiques help everyone but bitter comments help no one
Good job Evan, I admire you for taking on this project and not giving up.
I know nothing about tractors but I enjoyed your journey of repairing it. The smile of success on your face made it worth while.
Hi.... Evan, thank you for sharing your video homestead 👋 bye 👋 bye 👋 bye 👋 🎥👍👍👍
Excellent troubleshooting. Thanks for the info!
I have same D-17, 10543 hrs. Use non alcohol gas, use lead additive which lubes valves. Check your sentiment bowl screen. My load jet is set between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 turns. It had to be spark or fuel. Enjoyed your video, brings back a lot of memories. I’m talking to you while watching, check this or that. Get another set of points, once you file them, they burn. Good learning experience for you. Good old tractor. Thanks for sharing.
Allis Chalmers is a very good tractor the old ones may have trouble but you can still work on it be careful of the new stuff
It's so funny watching you experiment your way through and testing the terms, In the 60's what your doing was a way of life in the country. Really good job.
Great job. I'm 71, I used to go to my Uncle John tractor shop. I can remember as a kid seeing a tractor split apart. Now I know more than I did as a kid.
I felt your relief when the darn tractor finally started, well done perseverance for sure, good lad
The sweet smell of success!! Always good to know your way around your tractor, so all the extras, maybe not necessary this time, but get you higher up on the learning curve and will help you trouble shoot in the future.
Tractor sounds good. The battery sounds weak even with the charger on it. But look what you accomplished. 1959 was a good year.
Agreed on checking the battery. Check your battery cables too. Are the connections pristine clean at both the battery and terminal ends? Take the bolt out where the cable is grounded to the frame. You may need a wire brush on a rotary drillmotor to clean the rust there. Someone may have replaced the cables with an el-cheapo set as well. When you feel like really taking a dare, purchase a cheap timing light and give it a go at checking the timing.
Good job of hanging in there. Remember, experience is "goof ups" that don't kill you. LOL
I appreciate folks who keep the old iron in working shape.
Completing projects like that are very satisfying 🤙
Thats a good ol tractor.I enjoy watching your videos.
That's awesome. I love tinkering with old stuff. Trying to see if it will ever run. And the naysayers it will never run, trash it. All it needs is some TLC and yes even that gets aggravating every know and again just take a break and come back later and try again. Way cheaper than a new shiny one
Good job Evan 👍👍
Brings back memories of my father repairing the carb of our BF Minneapolis Moline on the kitchen table. Every spring he had to change the gasket. He eventually ended up using one of those old cardboard coke containers and it worked.
Oh how I rejoiced when that tractor finally started. Clapped my hands, stamped my feet, danced a jig. Well done.
Glad you got it running
Kudos to you for solving the problem.
Glad you got it going. We just spent 20.00 on a seal that doesn't belong on our tiller, even though it was supposed to fit. Lol The at home mechanic struggle is real! Great video.
The greater the frustration, the greater the satisfaction when you succeed.
Thanks I enjoy your work with the tractor
Our AC model WC had an updraft Zenith carb too from 1939ish. Enjoyed this very much.
Oh the joys & aggravations of working on old equipment. LOL Glad to see you got it going. Stay safe.
The points problem is quite common today. Also you need to put a little lube on the distributor cam to prevent rapid rubbing block wear. There is a special grease for this. You showed real determination Good Job for a first timer.
The carb needle was definitely the problem. The original points probably just needed to be filed down. Lots of new parts are China made junk so use the old parts for as long as you can. Still, you got it running. Great job!
Also, be sure to use ethanol free gas and put some stabilizer in it. Cleaning out your gas tank and putting an inline fuel filter and shutoff valve may not be a bad idea.
Generally the old tractors had fuel shutoff and sediment bowl at the tank.
Cheers
Me Chinese me play joke me go wee wee in your coke!
Good morning Evan and Rebecca, patience is one of your best tools. Searching out the correct way takes patience. The wrong parts get costly. We all have lots of extra parts on hand that don’t fit what we own. In the end you have the tractor running and that’s what matters. Sure glad you were able to save the carburetor and fix the points problem. Both have to be precise and then they work so good. Close only works in horse shoes and hand grenades 🤗. Thanks for sharing with us and glad you came out on top.
Evan, great video. Love your channel
one of the best all around tractors you can get , and easy to work on
Great job! Way to stick with it and troubleshoot the problems!
Great tractor repair, the mistakes make it a better vid, the more you work on it will make it your best friend and look forward to see you running all those attachments with the old girl.
Great job 👍
Good job.
Remember that these old gals have solid lifters. Do not forget to set your valves.
You should go to Tractor Supply to get an I & T manual for your tractor.
I&T manuals are the Bible for old tractor owners!
In my mind, it is amazing to me that you can STILL get a carburetor kit for a tractor made in 1959 ... that's incredible. And sooner or later, all those parts you replaced would require replacement anyway ... so you got that done and out of the way. I know this was a frustrating adventure. Just be glad it wasn't a major health issue like some folks have to deal with ...
Happy for you!
Well job done!
Well done!!you have bigger ones than I have for even attempting it.
Congratulations and thanks for showing us.
Rod
Glad you got it running, I have to tune up my old TO35 Ferguson so I feel your pain,
Do not know where I heard it or learned it, but somewhere along the road of life,
I was told after you install the points, take a thin piece of cardboard, like a part of the box the points come in, drag it between the points, this action cleans some type coating off the point contacts,
Again I do not know where I got the information,
Good job on getting it running,
My first car was a 1964 Chevy Belair. I learned how to tune it up, myself. In Junior high I took small engines, I learned so much. Love watching your video. I never herd o points having a coating, but they might do it now to extend the shelf life.
Evan, I'm proud of you. You have no shortage of instenal fortitude! You find a problem and jump right in to fix it. Good job! 🇨🇦
I appreciate you taking the time to film everything, even your struggles. I am getting ready to do this on my 1962 A/C D-17 series 3 next weekend after my parts show up.
Nice job !
Thank You for the information on points, I’m having the same problem with my wd.
Next time you're at the parts store get the gallon parts cleaning kit.
Excellent video! Thanks for sharing your efforts with all of us.
Best video you have made other than the fish videos and.the barn videos. Congratulations! Good work!
Hey! You got it to work!! Great job, even if there were some bumps along the way!
Great job ! Shouldn't need to file all new points yet not a bad idea !!!!! Happy to see you got it going !!!!- i have a d14 that probably needs the same love and attention !!!!! Thanks for the inspiration to get er done !!!!!! Love your channel !!!!!
Have run and maintained a WD45 which has the same engine as a D17 for 50 years. ( Tractor was purchased new by my father in 1955 and is still used regularly on my farm.) 9 times out of 10 when it is not running properly or refuses to start the problem is electrical. The coil is where I start as it will fail in damp conditions. I try to keep a spare coil on hand but have got the tractor running by simply removing the coil and warming it a very low heat in my wifes oven. Replacing the ignition wires every 4 or 5 years also helps.
Again, love the videos and enjoy watching you two working side by side. It's refreshing to see a couple doing what makes you both happy. Keep up the great work and best of luck in the future. Chris from Brenham Texas.
Wow. I really enjoyed the video with the carb and then getting the tractor going That was so cool. Thanks for the tips... great job.
Good for you buddy. You always save money when you do it yourself, a little trial and error but, thats with anything!...Nice job.
You did good you learned from your mistakes that what life is all about. Real good thanks
Nice sequence of walking us thru the repair steps. "now lets see if that will start" Nope.. now lets try X and Y ..
It makes for a great show!
Cheers Mac
Good job, seems like I remember my Grandpa using a small piece of sand paper on the new points before installing them. Looks like you are taking away some useful knowledge from this
Great job nice tractor
You did a great job . I rebuilt a carb from a WC years ago
You did a great job Just the knowledge gained was worth all the work. Karry On. Watch all Your Video's
When it didn't start I thought about the difference in rotors. Shows how much I know .. or don't know. :-)
Good job working through the points. I gave that up for the electronic ignitions only been disappointing once in the last 18 years.
Points usually need to have contact surfaces cleaned when installed. You need to put some grease on the back side of the rubbing block where it rides on the distributor shaft to prevent wear.
non-electrical grease, on the shoe of the points
I enjoy your videos Evan, Thanks. I grew up in Illinois on 186 acre Farm. I now live in Florida and just bought 28 acres in GA. Going to plant Hay as well. Keep up the great work.
I remember my father using a nail file on points.
that is funny you say that i always remember my grand father saying i need to file the points
You can actually still buy point files. I’ve bought new ones of fleabay. I believe NAPA (not a sponsor) still carries them.
Awesome video that’s no bad looking AC tractor I have watched some of your other videos you are making he homestead look good looking forward to the next video y’all stay safe
Glad you tried to fix it yourself.
You'll have a lot less trouble and cost with the Allis Chalmers than you would trying to maintain the mechanicals and wiring on a modern tractor. Service it properly, keep it clean, shed it always and it will probably see you out, old as it is. Col the cornstar's tractors are 30 - 40 years old and look and drive like new. He repairs everything and polishes them every year and they shine !
great job I grew up with two d17 series 4 tractors in fillmore il great tractors
The series 4 were the holy Grail
Save the old coil. Well done 👍
I did exactly what you did. Watched your video and cleaned up my new points. It fired right up. I appreciate the video.
I spent a lot of my first 30 years on a tractor with a loader just like that one! Always like the D17' s. Finally got a skid loader it was so much easier and faster to load with.
This just popped up on the same day I broke my 5020 Allis Chalmers. I had just reinforced the from bucket arms. I broke the back left arm then snapped connecting bolts that connect the front axle (4x4) to the block. I'm bummed, but glad to watch your build. Nice
5020 is a great tractor
Love the old Allis tractors. We threw a timing light on our D17 and D19 after new plugs and points....made a big difference on how they start. Hit the key and fires right up without grinding the starter. Congrats on your victory.
Good job, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, replacing the extra parts won't hurt a thing. I'm like you I think it was the carburetor. Great job.
Jimmy
Wow I never knew how that stupid little spring worked for the needle and float. Now I learned something!
You made the first classic mistake (for an amateur mechanic) that's working on two or more things at the same time. When it failed the first try, you had no idea where to start looking.
Excellent video . You're a better man than me . There is no way that I would have the patience to do something like that . Changing points . Brings me back to old days when cars had points . I would have used that new axe on the table and let that carb have it . LOL Better yet I'd tell my dad he needs to buy a bigger tractor and I know of someone that would buy his old one . LOL You can hear the rain hitting the steel roofing . It's loud .
You might want to find an old dwell meter. When working on old breaker-point ignition systems, keep in mind that setting the points by gapping with a feeler gauge gives you a starting point. Dwell meters are available at flea markets and yard sales for pretty cheap. I bought my SUN Diagnostic Center, new, back in 1963... no doubt you can find one of those still working for about 1/1,000th of the price I paid. At any rate, once you get your engine running, then set the dwell angle. I'm guessing the spec will be somewhere between 37 to 43 degrees. Then you can set the timing. Take note of the order of the tasks... point gap, dwell, timing. Good luck on your new adventure. In a few years you'll be one of the few who still knows how a carburetor works.
It’s aggravating but you’ll know the old girl well and it’ll make troubleshooting easier down the road. My ‘53 Ford was very reliable but need a carb cleaning every now and then.
Amen. Just how it happens to all of us.
Good job!
awesome tool wall in the background in your work shop....
AC used 2 different carbs. Marvel was the most common, but when I had an engine fire several years ago, the dealer put a Zenith on as he thought they were better on my 175. Also, last summer I put in 3 different set of points and every one was junk. I switched to electronic and wished I had done it years ago.
Yep, went thru the same issue on my old Ford backhoe. First with cheap points from the Rural King, then the good ones from NAPA. Finally bought a cheap electronic ignition kit from fleabay and my ignition problems went away...
You are doing a pretty good job, whenever you set up your point gap you should run a piece of white paper between the gap with the points closed. What this does it removes any dirt that you're feelers guage may have had. Also try to get the point gap as close as you can. If it off enough the gap can change the ignition timing. Have fun buddy
Good job good luck
4 weeks without a tractor on a farm is two lifetimes!
Very good video. I had a similar issue with starting on a car, years ago. Turned out to be a bad condenser (brand new). So goes to show you sometimes the new parts are not perfect.
Evan, sometimes you buy parts that are new but old stock. points will sometimes get a slight film between where they make contact and need to be cleaned. a little sanding with crokers cloth or a fine file will clean them. never touch the contacts.
Glad you got it running. BTW those new lights look like they are working out well.
Of all the points I changed on the vehicles I owned prior to 1988, I never had to polish the point contacts. I just installed them and the vehicle started right up.
GOOD VIDEO ENJOYED IT
Nice job ! Gotta have a tractor runnin
Thank you , I am shocked how few D-17 how to videos there are .
Sounds really good, but looking like you could use a little bit of exhaust work keep up the good work gr-8 video 🤟
Great job! I kind of cringed when I saw you working on both the fuel system and the ignition system at the same time (assuming that it would at least start prior to beginning). Believe me, I've made that mistake before.
As far as the points, I learned how to change/adjust them at an early age. My first truck (bought when I was just 14 years old) was a 1963 Chevy that had points, carb and a mechanical fuel pump. One of the best things that my father gave me was an actual shop manual (not a Chilton's or Hayne's manual common today) that had all of the information that I needed. Keep in mind, there was no internet or UA-cam in the mid 70's so the book is/was all that I had (along with my father's experience to guide me). I learned how everything worked on that truck and did it all myself through my high school years.
I would love to find an older model gas tractor to resurrect and use on my property. It can be frustrating working on that older stuff, yet satisfying when you make it work.
I'm impressed with your attention to detail and the concept of filming everything as you disassemble and rebuild. As for your mistake with the very small needle valve... Its all part of the learning curve(s). In the end I suspect you'll be pleased that you "over engineered" your repair job as you now know what's available, what works and what might need tweaking before its perfect. You done good!! Keep 'er up!! That ole Allis Chalmers will most likely serve you well for some time to come.
Nice job. I say if you plan on keeping it a while, you may as well upgrade like you did. so, glad it all worked out. I am impressed you did the carb rebuild. I am always afraid to jump into those projects. afraid I will end up breaking something that makes it worse instead of better. or.. would miss something so small yet so frustrating like the points that wouldn't work. grrrrrr.