The higher polarising voltage of the Ai results in slightly stronger attraction of the membrane to the back plate. This results in a tighter sound in the bottom, and also more 2nd harmonic distortion through the spectrum which will add image density, brightness and harmonic complexity all up through the midrange, and tie the bottom to the mid to the top. The older mic with the lower voltage will have less attraction between the membrane and the back plate, which will mean more freedom and symmetry of movement of the membrane in the low end giving subjectively more roundness and generosity in the bass, therefore lower 2nd harmonic distortion stacking up through the mid resulting in less density, brightness and presence up through the mid, and therefore somewhat of a psycho-acoustic "disconnect" between the mids and the treble, which will actually make the picking sounds stick out more against the backdrop of a slightly less bright mic overall (this last bit is clearly confusing these guys as to which mic is "brighter"). The differences in the sound between the two mics is actually exactly as one would expect once one understands the mechanisms at play. The Ai is generally more upfront and forward; the older mic is more mellow, with more flow and generosity in the bass. The Ai mic sounds tighter, faster, and more damped and compressed in the lows. The "i" sounds slower, freer, and less compressed in the lows. The descriptions of all these people are confused...they can't seem to agree on what the mics are doing and which is brighter. The explanation given here is the correct one.
@TheJamezMan My "evidence" of this is that I own both the Shure KSM 44 and the Neumann U87 and have done extensive work with both of these mics.... They sound so close its scary. My point was that for a thousand bucks the Shure KSM 44 is a better buy. Its 2300 dollars cheaper, and it sounds just like a U87, without the harshness. The U87 is the most OVERRATED mic in the world. I own 4 Neumanns (U87, TLM49, KMS105, U67) and I'm telling you the Shure KSM 44 flat out beats the U87 for $2300 less.
what can we take away from all this? as much as gear nerds insist they know their gear inside and out and have DEFINITIVE opinions on every little thing from patch cables to vintage condenser mics, no one knows what the hell is going on...everyone's ear is different, everyone picks up something completely unique...you ask alan parsons why he likes his old boxy overheads, he stares at you for a second and says something vague about "how nice they sound"....he knows how to work them and that's what it boils down to
I have A U87AI. And love it sounds great. So glad I bought it. One question I have is don't ya think A 30 year old capsule and electronics won't be affected by age? That is probably most of the difference between them I would think.
Very difficult to tell each mic apart. The Older mic (U87i) Has a more well rounded frequecy response, while the newer (U87ai) has the mid frequencies a bit hotter than the vintage mic, the newer mic also has a tiny bit Hotter signal. Both sound really really good, a crystal clean capture of the performance. Now If I could just be able to afford to buy all the Neumann Mic's I would be a very happy studio owner.
I preferred the vocal using a U87i. Smooth and richer sounding, very similar to the U87i I recently purchased for over $4K US. I sold over 50 'new' U87Ai from 2010 - 2022, and auditioned them all. I can say very few of them I would keep for my personal use. I am using Neve/BAE 1073/1084s, and primarily D.W. Fearn and Hazzelrigg chains for voice. No one mentioned the guitar being out of tune! I found it more and more difficult to concentrate on the quality of the mic, but would have preferred the U87I in the long run, to mixing the guitar in a full mix. The guitar had a nice sound, and musician was very accomplished otherwise. My $ .02.
I think calling a mic made in the 80's old is quaint. When I began studio recording old meant mics made in the 40's and 50's. A mic made in the 1980's is just a mic.
"U87 Ai, less bright"? Are you kidding me? Having a preference is one thing, but something's wrong with your ears if you think the Ai is less bright. One thing, that vintage 87 sounds great, but not all vintage Neumann U87's sound that good.
*I currently own a Neumann u87 **do7.pl/NMicrophone2** and after a little subtractive eq and slight eq bumps here and there I have actually preferred the 102 over it for many applications. Out the box it reminds me of a voice over mic with its presence and heavy low end. I don't get as much sibilance with it compared to my u87. I have used it for hip hop vocals with great results with my avalon 737. This mic is extremely small and can fit in the palm of your hands or pocket. I also sold some of my larger gear and purchased a duet for ipad. I am loving how my gear is getting more compact. I feel as though the technology is allowing for a great sound in much smaller devices without sacrificing quality.*
The new one sounds scooped in the mids. The old one sounds solid top to bottom although perhaps less bass response. I also preferred the vintage on everything but the voiceover.
Great show! For my ears, the Ai is a hands down a winner. I can see how some preferred the vintage 87 for VO because of its slightly mellow sound compared to the Ai, but if you want mellow VO you may as well grab an EV RE20!
I find it interesting that I heard this exactly opposite of the guy in the black vest. And so did everyone else… I think he was confused which was which tbh.
Maybe the audible differences relies on the age difference of everyone in this room. Also the damage to the ears overtime. I personally do like the old one but...I mean.. its like hearing the elephant in the room with headphones...
Well I'm in love with the vintage one. Sounds better on guitar and singing voice to me. The new one was better for the vox. I feel the new 87 sounds a little bit compress on the melody compare to the old one.
My first studio mic was (is) a Neumann TLM 193. Unbelievable tool. Bright and deep, but natural sounding. It's supposed to be an entry-level mic, but sometimes is the best one hands down. It shines on low-register percussion, voice, left-hand accordion or bandoneon, trombone... It was my only condenser for years, and I can't imagine any alternative that would have given me the same usability.
I loved the vintage U87i over the newer U87 Ai in all categories except for the voice over. To my ears the vintage captures the clarity of the original sound in far greater detail than the newer one. "They paved paradise and put up a parking lot". Neumann had the golden wand and now you can only get one of questionable condition on eBay.
Okay, that recording studio looked decked out and upscale, but something about it, the colors, the darkness, the pictures on the walls and decorating choices, I don't think I could record anything in a place like that. Anybody else get a weird vibe?
George Merrill... thanks for getting a good vocalist and a GREAT SONGWRITER! Anyways. I liked the older U87 because when he gets louder the microphone tames the sound so it doesn’t hurt my ears!!!!!!! I’ve noticed this with a lot of older mics like the km84,u87,414eb... the newer microphones allow your ears to bled. Wtf!
All of these tests can be so misleading...you can actually start thinking that music is made by microphones....it`s not ..one thing I have learned its that the take makes the difference not the mic...anything from a RODE NT1 onwards will not stand in the way from you producing a great record....99% of difference is made by the instrument,room and the performance.
Hard to define what it means to be "better" without some sort of a pre-existent chart or standard or whatever. It all boils down to personal preference and taste. I like the AI for the same reasons most ppl dislike it... And to me, "warm" means "not much treble". If the lower frequencies are there in equal or similar amounts, it's easy to tame the highs to match both mics. And vice versa, you can boost the higher end of the other. I much rather cut than boost, tho...
Definitely heard differences, definitely wouldn't say it's enough to spend that much more to buy a mic you're going to have to always treat like a newborn baby. Let the world's biggest studios (or the Smithsonian) worry about $15,000 microphones. Meanwhile, be satisfied w/ a slightly more hi-fi-sounding new model, and just get to work~shrug~ @loudvillestudio Thanks for posting!
I have the feeling that you are all falling to the placebo effect. This is a terrible experiment. It should be a double blind experiment. Also recording the microphones at diff times does not account of randomness of the performance since no artist can preform the exact same way twice. Poor experimental design.
maybe it's the you tube's compression, but I felt there was huge difference with the sounds of the two mics. with first hearing I agreed with the british guy, on guitar definitely the vintage 87, on vocals, maybe the new one.. I'd probably prefer the old one if given the choice!
Guys, as an engineer I am hearing a problem. maybe this is UA-cam video compression or something but on 02:42 you can hear the U87i just completely get trampled on digital distortion. I prefer the U87i myself, have worked for Unique Recordings & Hit Factory in NYC and Sony Studios. I tend to lean more tords the vintage series equipment, because thats how I was taught and raised with.. But I am completely shocked to hear such distortion in this test coming from both microphones, mainly at 02:42
@MrRobWhite I would use the two channels on your awesome Vintech 273 on the snare first and foremost, and the kick second. Kick and snare without a shadow of a doubt. Kick and snare the meat and potatoes of a good acoustic drum sound, and theres no doubt in my mind your Vintech/Neve will make them sound fantastic. With an 003, you can get a great overhead sound as long as you're using quality mics. Ive had great success using interface pres with good mics. Good mics-good mic pres-good sound.
I'd love to think you're a friend of the guy you mention sitting on couch and you're just giving him a hard time. Otherwise, I'm guessing you're not used to speaking with great numbers of highly intelligent people. I found his speech entirely clear and articulate, I thought he was thinking about what he said before saying it, and he was simply a little eccentric as are many brilliant people. And he didn't say "low-mid" he said "low," the woman in the chair said "low-mid."
For me this very well made video confirms what I allready thought. The 87i "erases" useless informations. So on voices you just get what you need. For the guitar (rich in hi-mid) the 87i still erases extreme informations but in this case these informations are essential. So I prefer the ai for guitar thru I don't like any 87's on guitars. If I would have to record a folk guitar with a Neumann I'd use a KM.
@PeteWojMusic if you were recording drums and you had 1 Vintech 273 and all your other pre amps were Digidesign 003 rack preamps, would you use the 273 as your O/H's?
I tended to agree with what stephen had to say about the new u87 had smoother lows and that bit more presence/attention seeking sound. Also sounded slightly compressed. I guess everyone has preferences
I’ll admit that the Neumann U87Ai is overpriced at $3,500 for a new one... It should be about $2,000. The Neumann name brand is strong. But I don’t think ANY microphone for less than $3,000 is better than the U87, and most are worse. If you are listening to a Pearlman or a Lauten Oceanus and thinking it sounds BETTER than a U87, you are simply wrong. Maybe for one particular source or style, those other less iconic mics are a little better, but overall, they’re not better. I’ve tried Telefunken AK47’s. They’re very nice, but definitely not BETTER than a U87. Maybe a Telefunken U47 is better... but they’re like $9,000 or something.
Great production quality, Matt. I like the fact that they folks there had comments which is much more valuable than me listening on UA-cam. One last addition for future tests. Do a blind test with a "man on the street" with the samples, simply asking is one better than the other, same, which one. Your guests are trained engineers I am assuming, so they are the "expert" panel. For a future show, I would love to pit this Expensive Neumann against a budget under $150 mike and do the same test!
I felt like there was a slight boost in the high frequencies of the Vintage U-87, it sounded clearer (On Guitar) but like a compressed clear sound, and on the AI it sounded like there was a slight boost in the lower frequencies but a smooth presence (male vocals), They both are close sounding , one can get away with recording with the other, however there is also a proximity difference where one sounded close than the other, The Vintage feels more of a live sound I believe its the Preamp, however Id have to test them with other Preamps to see if that's true, that's my opinion, it depends what you like better, to my ear I prefer the AI, as it seems a more modern sound and good all around mic.
I have an AI and it's truly a great mic. In some occasions I prefer it over my C12 VR, which is my go-to mic for vox. Paired with a tube pre it sounds amazing. Detailed yet not harsh. When dealing with a sibilant voice (sometimes a problem with the C12), it saves the day.
The older one on the acoustic guitar but prefer the Ai model on vocal duties. I have an Ai model from roughly 14-15 years ago (retro perhaps??) that I use on my voice.
Seeing that an older i would be very difficult to find, I'd be perfectly happy with the Ai in all these applications. The i sounded a little veiled to me in the "air".
both sounds good, u guys should check out a condenser called The Dark Light by Neon Man, my buddy got one off of eBay, different sound but definitely on par with these
Sounds to me like the new U87Ai brings out more bass and lower mid, and the U87i gives outstanding high mid/low high detail. I'd imagine the U87i to offer a lot more to a nicer sounding, stronger voice. U87Ai for proximity-effect voiceovers.
I agree with Paul, mostly, and completely disagree with Stephen. On guitar, especially, these two mics sound very different and the new one is much brighter (sounds kind of scooped).
Great shoot out. I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on a 87 and wanted to hear a sensible comparison. I preferred the vintage for the voiceover with its warmer top and slightly rounder bottom end, but for everything else, especially the vocals, the Ai wins for me, because lets face it, in todays modern production style we'll be pushing that top end sparkle even harder. And I love how everybody had a contradicting opinion. Another thing to consider is that the vintage mic has had 40 + years of spit hitting the capsule. After getting a 47 fet serviced many years ago, that can make a huge difference to the top end. So in conclusion, it'll be a new 87Ai for me without all the potential headaches of owning a vintage microphone. Cheers!
I liked the new one for the acoustic and the old for vocals and voiceover. My impression was the new one had greater articulation in the upper mids and the older one was smoother and more transparent. The articulation caught the small nuances of the guitar playing, which were diminished with the old mic. Depending on application, that effect could be exploited accordingly. Both vocal recordings sounded smoother and better balanced with the old mic without losing detail but reducing some of the sibilance and hard consonant sounds. Of course, this is all from listening through the speakers of my iPhone 11. 😂
On the new mic Stephen is on point! There is some kinda bump 100-200Hz on the U87Ai, first thing I recognized.
10 років тому
I think these kinds of test get much more interesting when they are double blind. Here, the way a couple of them describe the vintage mic - I think they would have preferred it if it were broken. Ana Sophie's observations where closest to mine, Stephen a close second. To me also the main difference is in the lower mids. To me the young engineers descriptions don't seem to fit the sonics at all. The vintage one is very clearly brighter with less low end. Probably due to some subtle distortion
Sole issue I have with the ai is the 5dB less headroom compared to the old one - more then once I had to increase distance more than I acutally wanted to avoid clipping on vocals.
Preferred the AI for sure on VO and guitar. Fuller and more rich in the mids, more tamed highs. The older one sounded a little thin. The AI has a closeness to it... feels more intimate. Maybe a tighter capsule pattern? The vocal performance seemed to benefit from the brighter sound.
liked the newer one more on guitar (more body), and on the voiceover: (more clarity & definition) and the older one on the vocal, less defined highs that make it sound more mellow which seemed to fit the theme of what he was singing - differences are so small, I would go for the cheaper one :)
These shoot outs are crazy. I mean these guys are talking about how the newer 87 sounds like it may have a SLIGHT boost around 10k. My thing is, if you like that, then you are good to go. But if you don't want that then it takes 3 seconds to pull out a simple eq and dip at 10k. I guess what I'm getting at is...is the 0.3 db boost at 10k (or whatever slight frequency differences) that big of an issue? Not really.
Thanks for the video, Matt! The U87i has more highs and less mids than the U87ai. So to me the U87ai is a "playing-safe" mic, but U87i brings more presence. In the singing comparison the sound of tongue-turning-in-mouth is pretty apparent for U87i. Personally I'll pick U87i for solos but U87ai for anywhere I want to be conservative. Interestingly enough that AKG C414 went an opposite way that their older ones are low-key but newer ones are more and more aggressive.
Hi! You said the new one is operate in 60 volt and the old one is 46 volt, But on most desk, phantom power is +,-48v. So is it there is an issue with operating voltage, is there is a dirty trick about operating voltage?
They are referring to polarisation voltage, as opposed to input operating voltage, which is phantom power. The Polarisation is part of a DC conversion. The point is, arguably, that by increasing this conversion voltage, they have changed the sensitivity of the capsule (if my numbers are correct, by ~2db), and decreased the signal/noise ratio. This also may change the tone slightly.
Nah, they have the classic Neumann sound, used on many of the most famous rock productions in the world. Therefore you sound like an idiot and have no clue at all.
Theoria Apophasis You are a clear proof that your magnetic experiments have a bad effect on your brain. You''ll see soon who is pissing off PlotinusVeritas. You are a fucking shame for the GS community.
Just because you may not be able to afford something, doesn't mean that it sucks. Oh, I've blocked you so don't try and insult me like you've done to everyone else that doesn't agree with you because I won't see it.
The higher polarising voltage of the Ai results in slightly stronger attraction of the membrane to the back plate. This results in a tighter sound in the bottom, and also more 2nd harmonic distortion through the spectrum which will add image density, brightness and harmonic complexity all up through the midrange, and tie the bottom to the mid to the top. The older mic with the lower voltage will have less attraction between the membrane and the back plate, which will mean more freedom and symmetry of movement of the membrane in the low end giving subjectively more roundness and generosity in the bass, therefore lower 2nd harmonic distortion stacking up through the mid resulting in less density, brightness and presence up through the mid, and therefore somewhat of a psycho-acoustic "disconnect" between the mids and the treble, which will actually make the picking sounds stick out more against the backdrop of a slightly less bright mic overall (this last bit is clearly confusing these guys as to which mic is "brighter"). The differences in the sound between the two mics is actually exactly as one would expect once one understands the mechanisms at play. The Ai is generally more upfront and forward; the older mic is more mellow, with more flow and generosity in the bass. The Ai mic sounds tighter, faster, and more damped and compressed in the lows. The "i" sounds slower, freer, and less compressed in the lows. The descriptions of all these people are confused...they can't seem to agree on what the mics are doing and which is brighter. The explanation given here is the correct one.
Huxxy everything you've said is spot on.
@TheJamezMan My "evidence" of this is that I own both the Shure KSM 44 and the Neumann U87 and have done extensive work with both of these mics.... They sound so close its scary. My point was that for a thousand bucks the Shure KSM 44 is a better buy. Its 2300 dollars cheaper, and it sounds just like a U87, without the harshness. The U87 is the most OVERRATED mic in the world. I own 4 Neumanns (U87, TLM49, KMS105, U67) and I'm telling you the Shure KSM 44 flat out beats the U87 for $2300 less.
is no one going to mention the masked man at 7:00 ?
Dude, we were listening, not watching :)
doped but not coked. Pity. i concur with the other comment....
nothing proved there then only these dudes need to get out more!
One will immediately sell for a lot less money after buying. The other continues to go up in price.
Older one is easy on the ears and less fatigue
what can we take away from all this? as much as gear nerds insist they know their gear inside and out and have DEFINITIVE opinions on every little thing from patch cables to vintage condenser mics, no one knows what the hell is going on...everyone's ear is different, everyone picks up something completely unique...you ask alan parsons why he likes his old boxy overheads, he stares at you for a second and says something vague about "how nice they sound"....he knows how to work them and that's what it boils down to
Absolutely adore this mic. We have one at our studio and it is certainly the centre piece of the mic collection
same. When an artist comes in you try others then usually end up with the Neumann U87 on vocals anyway. They make great drum overheads too
I have A U87AI. And love it sounds great. So glad I bought it. One question I have is don't ya think A 30 year old capsule and electronics won't be affected by age? That is probably most of the difference between them I would think.
OMG I loved the old one on the guitar it sound so real I felt the guy was playing next to me
Very difficult to tell each mic apart. The Older mic (U87i) Has a more well rounded frequecy response, while the newer (U87ai) has the mid frequencies a bit hotter than the vintage mic, the newer mic also has a tiny bit Hotter signal. Both sound really really good, a crystal clean capture of the performance. Now If I could just be able to afford to buy all the Neumann Mic's I would be a very happy studio owner.
I have to say a thing! That studio is wonderful!! :-D
Anyway, I prefer the "ai" (new one).
I preferred the vocal using a U87i. Smooth and richer sounding, very similar to the U87i I recently purchased for over $4K US. I sold over 50 'new' U87Ai from 2010 - 2022, and auditioned them all. I can say very few of them I would keep for my personal use. I am using Neve/BAE 1073/1084s, and primarily D.W. Fearn and Hazzelrigg chains for voice.
No one mentioned the guitar being out of tune! I found it more and more difficult to concentrate on the quality of the mic, but would have preferred the U87I in the long run, to mixing the guitar in a full mix. The guitar had a nice sound, and musician was very accomplished otherwise. My $ .02.
The clear winner in this video is the PREAMP!!!! DAMN it sounds good
u87i is like 20% warmer.
I think calling a mic made in the 80's old is quaint. When I began studio recording old meant mics made in the 40's and 50's. A mic made in the 1980's is just a mic.
That guy alwas saying "I felt the opposite of that" MUST have mixed up wich was the 87Ai and the vintage right?!?!
"U87 Ai, less bright"? Are you kidding me? Having a preference is one thing, but something's wrong with your ears if you think the Ai is less bright. One thing, that vintage 87 sounds great, but not all vintage Neumann U87's sound that good.
*I currently own a Neumann u87 **do7.pl/NMicrophone2** and after a little subtractive eq and slight eq bumps here and there I have actually preferred the 102 over it for many applications. Out the box it reminds me of a voice over mic with its presence and heavy low end. I don't get as much sibilance with it compared to my u87. I have used it for hip hop vocals with great results with my avalon 737. This mic is extremely small and can fit in the palm of your hands or pocket. I also sold some of my larger gear and purchased a duet for ipad. I am loving how my gear is getting more compact. I feel as though the technology is allowing for a great sound in much smaller devices without sacrificing quality.*
Liam Neeson detected.)
The new one sounds scooped in the mids. The old one sounds solid top to bottom although perhaps less bass response. I also preferred the vintage on everything but the voiceover.
Great show! For my ears, the Ai is a hands down a winner. I can see how some preferred the vintage 87 for VO because of its slightly mellow sound compared to the Ai, but if you want mellow VO you may as well grab an EV RE20!
I vote for the U87Ai
I find it interesting that I heard this exactly opposite of the guy in the black vest. And so did everyone else… I think he was confused which was which tbh.
Maybe the audible differences relies on the age difference of everyone in this room. Also the damage to the ears overtime. I personally do like the old one but...I mean.. its like hearing the elephant in the room with headphones...
Well I'm in love with the vintage one. Sounds better on guitar and singing voice to me. The new one was better for the vox. I feel the new 87 sounds a little bit compress on the melody compare to the old one.
My first studio mic was (is) a Neumann TLM 193. Unbelievable tool. Bright and deep, but natural sounding. It's supposed to be an entry-level mic, but sometimes is the best one hands down. It shines on low-register percussion, voice, left-hand accordion or bandoneon, trombone... It was my only condenser for years, and I can't imagine any alternative that would have given me the same usability.
I iften prefer it over my 87ai...its one of ny all time favourites!
I loved the vintage U87i over the newer U87 Ai in all categories except for the voice over. To my ears the vintage captures the clarity of the original sound in far greater detail than the newer one. "They paved paradise and put up a parking lot". Neumann had the golden wand and now you can only get one of questionable condition on eBay.
stephen doesn't know what he's talking about
i can't really tell the difrence..........
Really Enjoy shop talk like this!!
I just wish they werent sooo damn expensive tho.
Okay, that recording studio looked decked out and upscale, but something about it, the colors, the darkness, the pictures on the walls and decorating choices, I don't think I could record anything in a place like that. Anybody else get a weird vibe?
George Merrill... thanks for getting a good vocalist and a GREAT SONGWRITER! Anyways. I liked the older U87 because when he gets louder the microphone tames the sound so it doesn’t hurt my ears!!!!!!! I’ve noticed this with a lot of older mics like the km84,u87,414eb... the newer microphones allow your ears to bled. Wtf!
All of these tests can be so misleading...you can actually start thinking that music is made by microphones....it`s not ..one thing I have learned its that the take makes the difference not the mic...anything from a RODE NT1 onwards will not stand in the way from you producing a great record....99% of difference is made by the instrument,room and the performance.
Hard to define what it means to be "better" without some sort of a pre-existent chart or standard or whatever. It all boils down to personal preference and taste. I like the AI for the same reasons most ppl dislike it... And to me, "warm" means "not much treble". If the lower frequencies are there in equal or similar amounts, it's easy to tame the highs to match both mics. And vice versa, you can boost the higher end of the other. I much rather cut than boost, tho...
Definitely heard differences, definitely wouldn't say it's enough to spend that much more to buy a mic you're going to have to always treat like a newborn baby. Let the world's biggest studios (or the Smithsonian) worry about $15,000 microphones. Meanwhile, be satisfied w/ a slightly more hi-fi-sounding new model, and just get to work~shrug~
@loudvillestudio
Thanks for posting!
I have the feeling that you are all falling to the placebo effect. This is a terrible experiment. It should be a double blind experiment. Also recording the microphones at diff times does not account of randomness of the performance since no artist can preform the exact same way twice. Poor experimental design.
maybe it's the you tube's compression, but I felt there was huge difference with the sounds of the two mics. with first hearing I agreed with the british guy, on guitar definitely the vintage 87, on vocals, maybe the new one.. I'd probably prefer the old one if given the choice!
Guys, as an engineer I am hearing a problem. maybe this is UA-cam video compression or something but on 02:42 you can hear the U87i just completely get trampled on digital distortion.
I prefer the U87i myself, have worked for Unique Recordings & Hit Factory in NYC and Sony Studios. I tend to lean more tords the vintage series equipment, because thats how I was taught and raised with..
But I am completely shocked to hear such distortion in this test coming from both microphones, mainly at 02:42
@MrRobWhite I would use the two channels on your awesome Vintech 273 on the snare first and foremost, and the kick second. Kick and snare without a shadow of a doubt. Kick and snare the meat and potatoes of a good acoustic drum sound, and theres no doubt in my mind your Vintech/Neve will make them sound fantastic. With an 003, you can get a great overhead sound as long as you're using quality mics. Ive had great success using interface pres with good mics. Good mics-good mic pres-good sound.
I'd love to think you're a friend of the guy you mention sitting on couch and you're just giving him a hard time. Otherwise, I'm guessing you're not used to speaking with great numbers of highly intelligent people. I found his speech entirely clear and articulate, I thought he was thinking about what he said before saying it, and he was simply a little eccentric as are many brilliant people. And he didn't say "low-mid" he said "low," the woman in the chair said "low-mid."
For me this very well made video confirms what I allready thought. The 87i "erases" useless informations. So on voices you just get what you need. For the guitar (rich in hi-mid) the 87i still erases extreme informations but in this case these informations are essential. So I prefer the ai for guitar thru I don't like any 87's on guitars. If I would have to record a folk guitar with a Neumann I'd use a KM.
@PeteWojMusic if you were recording drums and you had 1 Vintech 273 and all your other pre amps were Digidesign 003 rack preamps, would you use the 273 as your O/H's?
I tended to agree with what stephen had to say about the new u87 had smoother lows and that bit more presence/attention seeking sound. Also sounded slightly compressed. I guess everyone has preferences
I’ll admit that the Neumann U87Ai is overpriced at $3,500 for a new one... It should be about $2,000. The Neumann name brand is strong. But I don’t think ANY microphone for less than $3,000 is better than the U87, and most are worse. If you are listening to a Pearlman or a Lauten Oceanus and thinking it sounds BETTER than a U87, you are simply wrong. Maybe for one particular source or style, those other less iconic mics are a little better, but overall, they’re not better. I’ve tried Telefunken AK47’s. They’re very nice, but definitely not BETTER than a U87. Maybe a Telefunken U47 is better... but they’re like $9,000 or something.
Great production quality, Matt. I like the fact that they folks there had comments which is much more valuable than me listening on UA-cam. One last addition for future tests. Do a blind test with a "man on the street" with the samples, simply asking is one better than the other, same, which one.
Your guests are trained engineers I am assuming, so they are the "expert" panel.
For a future show, I would love to pit this Expensive Neumann against a budget under $150 mike and do the same test!
I felt like there was a slight boost in the high frequencies of the Vintage U-87, it sounded clearer (On Guitar) but like a compressed clear sound, and on the AI it sounded like there was a slight boost in the lower frequencies but a smooth presence (male vocals), They both are close sounding , one can get away with recording with the other, however there is also a proximity difference where one sounded close than the other, The Vintage feels more of a live sound I believe its the Preamp, however Id have to test them with other Preamps to see if that's true, that's my opinion, it depends what you like better, to my ear I prefer the AI, as it seems a more modern sound and good all around mic.
I prefered the Ai on Gtr and the vintage U87 on VO and Vocals. Almost sounds like the vintage U87 capsule is beat up and needs a capsule refurb.
I have an AI and it's truly a great mic. In some occasions I prefer it over my C12 VR, which is my go-to mic for vox. Paired with a tube pre it sounds amazing. Detailed yet not harsh. When dealing with a sibilant voice (sometimes a problem with the C12), it saves the day.
The older one on the acoustic guitar but prefer the Ai model on vocal duties. I have an Ai model from roughly 14-15 years ago (retro perhaps??) that I use on my voice.
Seeing that an older i would be very difficult to find, I'd be perfectly happy with the Ai in all these applications. The i sounded a little veiled to me in the "air".
Honestly.. the new Neumann wins IMHO...very surprising. it sounds wider, and has more presence. which is great to cut through dense mixes.
Heard it too. Like hitting the ceiling (subtle, but there). Thought it was the old capsule giving up, or a leaky component. Only on the i.
Did you process the vocals with auto-tune? Sounds like it... Kind of taints the results of the comparison in my mind.
both sounds good, u guys should check out a condenser called The Dark Light by Neon Man, my buddy got one off of eBay, different sound but definitely on par with these
U87i for vocals and voiceover, and U87Ai for guitar is my verdict
Whatever you lot think... I think the opposite. I can't say why. Something to do with the character.
Sounds to me like the new U87Ai brings out more bass and lower mid, and the U87i gives outstanding high mid/low high detail. I'd imagine the U87i to offer a lot more to a nicer sounding, stronger voice. U87Ai for proximity-effect voiceovers.
older one is less "hard" New one more roomy (like a TLM103) more low mids....but it is a different take anyways, Bad test sorry
I agree with Paul, mostly, and completely disagree with Stephen. On guitar, especially, these two mics sound very different and the new one is much brighter (sounds kind of scooped).
never mind... i like all clip mics... that has full body.. warm.. nice 4k and 10k.. :lol
A Good beer without a glass? bitch please xD, awesome test, thanks.
BTW in my opinion i will pick the old Neumann U87i all the time.
Great shoot out. I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on a 87 and wanted to hear a sensible comparison. I preferred the vintage for the voiceover with its warmer top and slightly rounder bottom end, but for everything else, especially the vocals, the Ai wins for me, because lets face it, in todays modern production style we'll be pushing that top end sparkle even harder. And I love how everybody had a contradicting opinion. Another thing to consider is that the vintage mic has had 40 + years of spit hitting the capsule. After getting a 47 fet serviced many years ago, that can make a huge difference to the top end. So in conclusion, it'll be a new 87Ai for me without all the potential headaches of owning a vintage microphone. Cheers!
I honestly think that the u87i is better with guitar, but the u87ai is better with voiceover and singing.
I liked the new one for the acoustic and the old for vocals and voiceover. My impression was the new one had greater articulation in the upper mids and the older one was smoother and more transparent. The articulation caught the small nuances of the guitar playing, which were diminished with the old mic. Depending on application, that effect could be exploited accordingly. Both vocal recordings sounded smoother and better balanced with the old mic without losing detail but reducing some of the sibilance and hard consonant sounds. Of course, this is all from listening through the speakers of my iPhone 11. 😂
Man do I miss that place. I worked there in the late 90's. INCREDIBLY talented people. Absolutely top notch.
"And here's Paul Simmans, to say exactly the opposite of what everyone was thinking."
Well they both don't sound better than the other, because they won't make any sound themselves.. dua..
Thanks for making this comparison. Very helpful.
On the new mic Stephen is on point! There is some kinda bump 100-200Hz on the U87Ai, first thing I recognized.
I think these kinds of test get much more interesting when they are double blind. Here, the way a couple of them describe the vintage mic - I think they would have preferred it if it were broken.
Ana Sophie's observations where closest to mine, Stephen a close second. To me also the main difference is in the lower mids.
To me the young engineers descriptions don't seem to fit the sonics at all. The vintage one is very clearly brighter with less low end. Probably due to some subtle distortion
Sole issue I have with the ai is the 5dB less headroom compared to the old one - more then once I had to increase distance more than I acutally wanted to avoid clipping on vocals.
Preferred the AI for sure on VO and guitar. Fuller and more rich in the mids, more tamed highs. The older one sounded a little thin. The AI has a closeness to it... feels more intimate. Maybe a tighter capsule pattern? The vocal performance seemed to benefit from the brighter sound.
Is that Bruce Campbell's brother on VO?
please tell me what is your recording software (the program that is opened in the back)
good god that song is horrid
this made me laugh out loud
Could you guys do a shoot out between the Sony C800G and Brauner VM1 or Manley Ref C?
liked the newer one more on guitar (more body), and on the voiceover: (more clarity & definition) and the older one on the vocal, less defined highs that make it sound more mellow which seemed to fit the theme of what he was singing - differences are so small, I would go for the cheaper one :)
what console is that I looked up digitech 192 and it wasn't a mixer?
Can you do a cover with zero effects turned on? I would love to get a sense of how good the ISK BM800 is as a mic
I agree with Mr. Hart. the new one definitely had a beefy low end that I love!
What headphones was he using? DT150?
Definitely the new one! More low mids, more body... I felt some distortion at the high end with the old one.
I randomly started applauding in the middle of the guitar, and vocal recording.
vintage to me is better on vox. i prefer the newer 87 on the ac git
These shoot outs are crazy. I mean these guys are talking about how the newer 87 sounds like it may have a SLIGHT boost around 10k. My thing is, if you like that, then you are good to go. But if you don't want that then it takes 3 seconds to pull out a simple eq and dip at 10k. I guess what I'm getting at is...is the 0.3 db boost at 10k (or whatever slight frequency differences) that big of an issue? Not really.
SanctuarySound thank you...I got the u87ai last week. Picks up eq like no other mic. No problem with any frequency imo
Noymon!! I like the new Noymon on vocals and the old Noymon on guitar
In a blind test, I doubt anyone could tell one over the other.
no the vintage one get it, it has more brightness to it
Ai to guitar ... i to vocals singing and Ai to voiceover
Thanks for the video, Matt! The U87i has more highs and less mids than the U87ai. So to me the U87ai is a "playing-safe" mic, but U87i brings more presence. In the singing comparison the sound of tongue-turning-in-mouth is pretty apparent for U87i.
Personally I'll pick U87i for solos but U87ai for anywhere I want to be conservative.
Interestingly enough that AKG C414 went an opposite way that their older ones are low-key but newer ones are more and more aggressive.
Not true, the U87i actually has a LP filter at around 12Khz... Which is why most people find it "warmer" sounding.. lol
Hi! You said the new one is operate in 60 volt and the old one is 46 volt, But on most desk, phantom power is +,-48v. So is it there is an issue with operating voltage, is there is a dirty trick about operating voltage?
They are referring to polarisation voltage, as opposed to input operating voltage, which is phantom power. The Polarisation is part of a DC conversion. The point is, arguably, that by increasing this conversion voltage, they have changed the sensitivity of the capsule (if my numbers are correct, by ~2db), and decreased the signal/noise ratio. This also may change the tone slightly.
both sound like overpriced shit , sound worse than an Audio Technica AT4050
Nah, they have the classic Neumann sound, used on many of the most famous rock productions in the world. Therefore you sound like an idiot and have no clue at all.
youve never owned either one, therefore youre the fucking mental midget,
piss off boy
Theoria Apophasis You are a clear proof that your magnetic experiments have a bad effect on your brain. You''ll see soon who is pissing off PlotinusVeritas. You are a fucking shame for the GS community.
kiss my ass son.
Just because you may not be able to afford something, doesn't mean that it sucks. Oh, I've blocked you so don't try and insult me like you've done to everyone else that doesn't agree with you because I won't see it.
These guys do not make mistakes in life.
Thanks for a great show!!!
@TheJamezMan Evidence of what specifically??
Very entertaining. Thanks!
Lol microphone show..