Nail polish, thinned with a bit of acetone. An 18 gauge blunt needle on a syringe. Fill it up, put the needle into the engraved text and carefully trace out your lines. Once you get the hang of it, you can do it without error and the finish is solid and permanent.
Depending on the finish you're looking for, you may need a deeper offset/deboss (0.5 -1.0mm) and you may need more than 1 coat. Fill it up - it'll shrink - especially when thinned. If you're planning on sanding the final surface and spraying a hardcoat, you can overfill and sand it flush.
I like the needle and the liquid idea. Use liquid 3D printer resin and buy it in white or clear then a set of alcohol resin dyes. You could fill it and UV cure it even. There’s also a UV curable silicone available i think. 🤔
I use the needles mainly for glueing, but have used it for paints, as well. Never used resins, but now that you've mentioned it, I'm definitely going to try it out.
Just saw your video, very nice. I used a different method. I printed by using raised letters and white filament, spray painted the part with matte black paint and then sanded the lettering exposing the only letters as white. Maybe a few less steps. Just proves that with 3D printing there are multiple solutions.
I find that just painting on acrylic paint and wiping it off with a lint-free cloth works well. Doing it twice, with the 2 wipe-offs at 90 deg to each other deals with wipeout on some letters.
Really nice I thing you could use a negative draft angle to allow the silicon to have a larger area deeper in the letter. Like they do with mercury tooth filling.
i wonder if the acute angle at the surface would also act as a sort of blade to help cut off the residue on top of the soap, leading to cleaner edges and reduced risk of dragging a letter out of the hole when cleaning it up
To keep the letters from coming out like your letter L, you could taper the indents in the 3D model instead of 90° sides so the deeper they go the wider they are. This would provide more of a mechanical lock like a dovetail and may allow finer lines at the surface.
There is a strong glue/sealer called Soudal T-Rex (white), that I've used with your soap technique and it works perfect, it won't come out and it's a lot harder than silicone. thank´s for this tutorial
I just saw this video and have used this technique in the past. I recently purchased a new 3d printer with multiple spools and made lettering much easier.
Done some of the embossed lettering in even smaller scale the thing is way easier than what you did. 1. Go to any "Chinese" multishop and buy a set of brushes for nails - cheap various sizes. 2 Use modelling acrylic paint (Tamiya, Vallejo, AK) 3. paint the letters inside you can use the moderate amount of paint to fill in the grooves. 4. Take a q-tip and remove the excess paint from around the borders with water. 5 Add varnish for flavor if you want. Done
I used lightweight spackling compound in my P-40 throttle. I even used it in the "P" of a prop lever from a real Shakespeare throttle quadrant that I restored. So far, it's working, but I'm thinking of applying some clear paint over the knobs to help seal the lettering a bit better. Thanks for the video!
Those knobs are so well designed. I can see someone modifying them, perhaps to remove the text and put their own on it and filling in the center hole to create a hole that fits some device they want to make new knobs for. (resizing of course). Those would make cute radio control knobs. Nice work!
Just randomly stumbled onto this, wandering through 3D print videos. If you're able to manually swap out colors, you can model the letters as a separate object, and simply print them in white, right in the same layer as the black part. I made some custom key caps for my steno keyboard with this technique in Prusaslicer (set up 2 extruders, and check the box for single print head, and it'll auto-add the color change code, which pauses the print, moves the head out of the way, and beeps to let you know to change colors). These were printed face-down, for geometry reasons, but also to get really smooth faces, and I just made the legends one layer in thickness. I couldn't get Prusaslicer to do the obvious thing - just print the letters, then switch colors and print everything else - so it made me switch twice - printed surround in white, switch to black, print letters, switch back to white, print the rest - but two switches isn't too much work. You could also do this on a top face. With white letters, you may need 2 layers to get the opacity you want, but again, it's only maybe 4 manual color swaps in all. Here's a little gallery of the results: photos.app.goo.gl/ESNPo86SNm2ZRxNF8
Thanx for this!!!. Tried and tested and is actually perfect. To improve applying the silicone- in your slicer settings do an iron top layer, that way you wont get the grooves on the top layer. I have found a way to make different colour lettering!!!!!! as theres not many colours available in silicon
When doing this sort of thing for 3D printed, subtractive lettering, you can add a slight undercut to each letter to help hold in the pigmented material, whether it's silicone, resin, or paint.
have you tried the "iron" top layer feature in your slicer. this would reduce the lines and space to get into. Another thing can be a filament change at a layer to white for a few layers, then change back to black. This will leave a white ring on the knob, but you can fix with appropriate spay paint, which may give a more authentic look.
Great technique, although I'll probably use my pneumatically controlled adhesive dispenser with the syringe filled with paint. Press the foot pedal to dispense paint from a needle into the embossed lettering while moving the needle in the letters to spread it around. Gravity and surface tension do a lot of the fine detail work as the paint self levels and wicks up the sidewalls. Let it dry and then spray everything with a few layers of clear coat to seal the surface, level the surface over the lettering, and protect it from gunk getting into the lettering or abrasion.
@@AuthentiKit - The foot pedal activates a switch that opens a pneumatic valve to pressurize the top of the syringe. The pressure is adjusted by a pressure regulator to dispense the fluid at the proper rate depending on viscosity. When the foot switch isn't pressed, the top of the syringe experiences vacuum from a vacuum generator to almost instantly stop the flow and prevent any dripping or oozing. The vacuum pressure is also adjusted based on the fluid's viscosity. It works very well. New units are expensive but used models can be purchased inexpensively.
Very nice! You might consider making the letters a wedge shape so that the silicone won't peel out as easily. Also I wonder if there are dyes you could add for different colors.
Thanks for documenting your process, it’s a cool idea. You’ve inspired the entire comments section to think up a better way. Maybe a follow up video could include a comparison of the top commented techniques.
This is exactly what I need. Engraved letters are too narrow to paint but you need something to make them stand out. My only concern is that this looks like a lot of effort, but until I get a dual filmament printer, it's a great option.
You don't need a dual filament printer. All you need to do is insert an M600 line in your GCODE and manually swap colors. EVERY slicer has this option.
@@tvideo1189 That works if your printing different levels completely. Embedding one colour filament in a level with another colour like this would mean a huge amount of swapping. It would be virtually impossible.
@@DerekCroxtonWestphalia I have no idea what you are saying. Printing another, different color layer in the bottom of the incised letters level is easy and I have done it MANY times. You do end up with a layer in your print that is the layer color of the letters, but that hardly detracts at all... even looks kinda cool in lots of instances.
@@tvideo1189 You print a whole layer right at the bottom of the letters? Okay, that could work but you don't end up with filled in letters like he has here, plus as you point out it means the whole layer is a different colour. Good for you if you like it, that's not what I'm going for.
@@DerekCroxtonWestphalia you wouldn't have to do a whole layer, you could print an outer ring of the base color and then fill in the rest of the layer in a white disc. you could do this for multiple layers for thickness as long as your top layer(s) were all black
Printing with two different colored filaments could make that one too. But this one is also a very interesting approach. But i recommend to use the smooth surface feature in Cura slicer for the top finish, to have it not stick else where then just the lettering. Those parts would be ideal for that slicer setting.
Thank you for the technique. I've had similar good luck with smooshing air dry clay into the embossed areas of parts. It can be cleaned off easily before it dries.
Years ago when working for Collins Radio, I had to 'refurbish' front panels. They had similar indentations for lettering. We used a white crayon and just rubbed it back and forth over the indented lettering....worked every time, no muss no fuss..
Brilliant solution! I have a multicolor printer, but the general idea of using dishwashing jiquid as a mask for some other substance is very generally applicable.
Or with raised letters, if it’s the highest part of the print, print with black and add a pause in your slicer when you get to the letter layer and switch to white filament for the letters.
It's possible to swap filaments on *any* 3D printer. It just takes some manual labor at a few points. For lettering like that you can usually get away with 2 or 3 layers at most which is about 6-ish manual swaps. That's a lot less work than this technique, looks professional, and is as durable as the knob itself. With that said, a true authentic look probably would be paint.
The problem with that is that it's easy to manually swap filaments in between layers, but difficult (or impossible) to manually swap filaments mid-layer. So it only really works if your text is embossed completely above the surface of the rest of the print. Luckily, the price to entry for automatic multi-filament printing is down to $350 USD (Bambu Lab A1 Mini + AMS Lite), so it's become quite affordable.
@@guspaz There is a filament change GCODE. Most if not all printer firmware supports it. If you don't have an automatic changer it will pause and do all the stuff it's suppose to like retract the old filament then wait for you to insert the new filament. Works exactly the same as the automatic system and can do anything it can except you have to do manual work to remove the old filament and insert the new each time.
@@andyu69 Split it in half, tape over the exit of the letters, fill the inside with silicone (letters joined as you say with channels/tunnels) so it pushes out to the surface, then join the halves either with screws from the back so not visible or glue them
I've had good results using one layer of filament of one color for the lettering, then switching to the background color and printing the rest of the part. It's just one filament change near the start of the print, so it doesn't take as long.
I would try sanding and polishing them first, then gently apply some release wax with a few layers of cloth backed by something hard. You might be able to use white epoxy then, which would be more durable and less prone to becoming grubby
@@peterkn2 I haven't had that issue. I modeled a part with raised letters and made sure the height was evenly divisible by .2 (1mm) and it worked great. The first color was orange and the letters were white.
I used yellow TPU to print large custom raised lettering on some black TPU mud flaps that I made for my Japanese mini truck. It turned out great. It wouldn't be as nice with smaller lettering because FDM print resolution is fairly low, and it also wouldn't work in the example shown because the control wheels had portions that were higher than the lettering. Raised lettering is seldom the highest portion of an object because it'd be scraped off by contact with other objects coming in contact with it. That's why most lettering is engraved (negative, below the surface) rather than embossed (positive, raised).
White out (liquid paper) pin, or the chrome paint pins if you want chrome instead of white work well also. Obviously if you have the time to watch the print you can stop your 3d print swap to white, print 1-2 layers of the letter surface, then switch back to black but that is hard to get the timing right. Though 2 color printers are cheap enough these days if you are doing a lot of it it. You can actually take the filament, measure out the length, splice in some white so that it will print white at the right point, but that is hard to get perfect. Using the silicone technique (or any other fill/paint) if print a stencil with the part (so a 2-3 layer thick part that just has the letters cut out that will line up with the letters in the part, can use indexing pins/holes also if need be). lightly glue stick them together. Apply the silicone or paint. Let cure, pull off the stencil. Then use a sharp razor to trim the letters to surface height if you got too much in them.
Acrylic "artist" paint is useful for various filling, fixing, indexing and insulating jobs! Non aggressive, permanent(ish) but generally removable, cheap, colorful, great shelf life, water soluble when wet. Decently fast setting. It does shrink a bit.
If you don't like sanding (like me, tho I print in PETG mostly and it's horrible to sand) you may wanna try scraping / shaving. Simple putty knife works great, just practice a bit to find good angle (around 90 degrees), bent it a bit (using side works better) and shave. Similar technique as using card scraper in woodworking, probably scraper would work even better but never used those tbh
I see a lot of great techniques suggested here. Thank you all. I recommend that the lower layers of the lettering be undercut so the silicone can fill a cavity locking it in place. Since I restore / repair antique radios I wish I had the tools and skills to recreate knobs and odd trim pieces with a 3D printer.
Yes, the undercut is a great improvement on the method. For antique radios i’d suggest a resin printer and get a free hobbyist copy of fusion 360 and just start playing with it. Knobs and trim are easy stuff with f360. all3dp.com/1/best-resin-dlp-sla-3d-printer-kit-stereolithography/
Silicone sealant can be thinned with naptha (white gas in the US or Coleman fuel), which apparently does not effect PLA. You could thin it enough to use a fine brush or a syringe to make sure the bottoms of the grooves are wetted. Neat idea and I will have to white sealant. I wonder if it can be colored easily. The acrylic paints can be good as well but they don't like getting wet.
@@MikePreston-darkflib Yes, I think so. It is like a finer distillate of gasoline. Earliest petrol engines used it because it was being distilled for cleaning. The "gasoline" collection of molecules was a waste product from making lamp oil and burned off or evaporated away.
I notice your elevator trim indicates 'NH' & 'TH'. Presumably for Nose High and Tail High. Is that really what the P51 trim control indicated? In the states here, we usually refer to elevator trim as 'Nose Up' and 'Nose Down' . Just wondering if we in the states have had an evolution of nomenclature.
Another way that's easier to do is to find the last layer before the lettering and print that in white. Then finish the rest of the job after a layer or two of the white. This won't fill it in but it will be permanently white. The side effect is that the edge of the wheel will have a thin white ring at that layer but that might actually look good anyway. Just for looks you could coat the entire top of the wheel with clear to fill it in. The way you change colors is in the slicer with the change filament command. Or you can just use raised letters and all white.
Try one of the silicone mastic tools to press the mastic into the letters and clean up afterwards, they remove excess mastic completely from tiles and worktops
Nice! Thx for sharing. I tried something like this with extrudes text, but this looks much better. Maybe you could also use that white paint, that car fans are using to pimp the tires.
Use a cheap silicone sealant finishing tool or squeegee. Ones with flat, straight edges found in DIY & tiling stores for tidying up sealant gun silicone around worktops and bath edges. With a bit of practice, you can wipe over all the flat surfaces & the squeegee will leave silicone in the grooves and clean the flat surfaces as its drawn across. Each flat surface might need a very fine abrasive polish before hand but you might want to do that anyway for a nice smooth finish. Can use acrylic paint instead of silicone sealant which might peel over time as the sealant wont really bond with the plastic surface. Easier, cleaner and quicker than masking off with washing up liquid.
Is there a good clear treatment you can put on top to really solidify the lettering once you've cleaned it up? Like a spray on clear acrylic or something?
Since I don't mind having the letters a little bit sunken and my lettering is in a plane parallel to the build plate, I do it the following way: I let the printer come up to the plane of the lettering, switch the filament to white, let the printer continue for 2 or 3 layers, switch back to black and print 2 or 3 layers in black with the letters not filled in. (Yes, that leaves a thin white strip around the periphery also, but I don't mind)
Elephant in the room? Many 3d printers are multi-filament now (Bambu, Prusa, Creality). May take a little longer to print, but no post-processing or filling needed.
Wow you have a very nice sounding voice and your word choice is just so on point. You could charge money for that service! Just as a voice actor and instructor!
With 3D printing, it should be possible to give the lettering a "lip" or "inner bevel" of some sort (I'm sure there's a technical name for it) so the infill can't peal out. Make the cavity for the letter bigger on the inside instead of having straight walls. Does that make sense?
I've been using regular spackle not the quick dry or lightweight. You put it on like frosting making sure it's all the way into the crevices. Let it get dry overnight. Sand the Spackle off and use a damp cloth or toothbrush. Personally I've been spraying my 3D prints with a clear coat
The cool thing about starting up your 3D printing hobby is that it's not as easy as people think it is, or rather entry level units lack features to make it less meticulous. Stay with me here, the silver lining here is that the 2nd hand market is great! You can get a gently used 3D printer for less than $200, and often it will come with filament because the frustrated seller will be happy to get it all out of their home. That said, it also means that a person should self educate and experiment once they have their printer all set up. UA-cam is a huge resource, Made With Layers, Teaching Tech, CNC Kitchen to name a few. Start small, like these fine knobs this Content Creator is making, little gadgets like chip bag clips or kitchen hooks, etc. It takes a while to complete a print, there's usually some post-processing, maybe some light sanding, and mistakes will be made but it's also a lot of fun! It helps if you're a type who enjoys journeys as much or more than destinations. :)
Very interesting! I have a Cessna switchbox which has no letters/lines/digits on it. I could make a new frontplate with your method. What program you used to do this job? I'm not good at designing yet... best regards from The Netherlands.
@@AuthentiKit I too use Fusion 360. The learning curve was immense for me as I don't have a CAD design background. But once one gets the hang of it, it's really amazing. In seeing your knob designs, I wondered if you used Fusion and if not, what other, since the smoothness of the bumps around the edges are excellent.
you think you can 3-D print a fully functioning PF1 Mustang because I think it would be awesome to put on VR headset look through the cockpit see the elevation speed and everything and fly from a VR headset now that would get my juices flowing and if you could do that maybe join in with someone else a group of people perhaps I might be a patriot
It would be possible to redesign the parts to accept a 3D printed disc insert with the text printed as the first layer in mirror mode, either a multi material system or just manual filament changes can be employed. and then glue the disc to the part, the text and the disc could be printed with a shiny glass like finish or a textured finish by using either a textured PEI bed or a smooth PEI bed. This would be a much easier method of production.
I suppose for letters that big I would try using a ballpen corrector (dont know the name). preferably the one that acts like a pen as well, not the bottled up with a brush or the tape one of course. And for any other flat surface good old spray and flat piece of paper to get rid of the recess + 15 minutes sanding. Still a nice idea but the time and effort just doesn't make it a good option for myself. Maybe if I needed something fancy
Each to their own i guess. I’d hate to do all that sanding. Ive tried the tippex whiteout. Not bad in certain situations when the nozzle is narrow enough.
I'm so excited for the P51 parts! I should recieve my 3d printer next week and can't wait to get started. I'm having a hard time finding the "rig" on amazon in the US. The only ones I find have one single clamp. I feel I might regret that if I buy it. 😕
me again...forgot to mention a way to get various colours that are not available in silicon from previous reply!!!!- i used acryilic paint ,any colour, mixed it with the silicon, enough to get the colour i needed, RGB, red blue yellow black can make close to any colour you want
I wonder, if the letters would stay in even more reliably with one tweak. If the letters had a very small amount of negative chamfer, so the bottom of the groove is about one line width larger the top. Then once the silicone dries, it "can't" come out - it won't through the top of the groove.
There is a chemical call PVA poly vinyl acetate whis is used as mold releasing agent. I think that would make your job much quicker and cleaner. It is certainly more expensive than your fairy liquid but time is money and i think your overall results would improve.
PVA is also the formula of simple plain white scholar glue. Since it may became transparent when dried, maybe it is neccessary to add some white pigment to it (maybe some household item like gipsy or corstarch would do?), but it may get the job done. Other option a litte more expensive but faster is use 3d uv resin with white pigment. Apply it, clear the excess, expose to sunlight and it cures in a few seconds.
Raised lettering would be much easier to paint than recessed lettering. If you can modify the print to include raised lettering, do that instead. Unless you have a shaky hand, the painting process will require virtually no unnecessary clean up. Of course, for inlay painting, your vid technique works quite well. Thank you.
If the letters are raised enough, you just roll the paint out like old printers did on a surface and just press the letters into the paint and lift. All painted at one shot.
CAD software - Place lettering on the design. Bambu LAB printer can color in the letters. Then simply print the product. I appreciate the efforts here, but there are better ways.
Almost like @josephpk4878 I like to use casting resin applied with a needle. Hobby Lobby has little bottles, I think in the model paint area, that have needle type applicators that worked well on my last project.
Given you have digital files of it, would it not be easier if you drew a template around the letters, cut it out in vinyl (machines do it perfectly) place it on top, do the silicon thing, peel of the vinyl template..the clean up process would be a lot easier
That's a pretty good result. But, unless the filler must be a silicone for any reason, and you have bought the whole set of acrylic paint just because of the brushes, why not give these colors a chance? Use as small and pointy brush as possible, thin the paint if necessary, and just fill the letters as precisely as you can, but there's no need to be overly careful, if some of the paint gets on the top surface, that's OK. When the complete text is filled, give it a couple of minutes, then wipe the excess paint from the top surface with paper tissue moderately wet with acetone, thinner, isopropyl alcohol, or water if the paints are water soluble. I never used PLA, so I'm not sure which solvents may damage it, and in general I'd suggest making a test sample plate whenever you use a new type of filament or resin. Do not soak the tissue, and do not press it with your finger into the text, to avoid pulling the paint out of the letters. Just put several drops of thinner onto it. You can use some kind of flexible spatula and span the tissue over its edge and use that to go over the text. If the surface is still foggy but most of the spillovers are removed, give it some more time and repeat the above a bit more aggressively, maybe with some more solvent. Once you find a sweet spot between how much the paint should be thinned, how long you should wait before wiping the excess off and how wet or dry the tissue should be, the whole process shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes, drying times included. Depending on the paint type, final drying time may be longer, but acrylic will dry pretty fast. There's nothing wrong with silicone, but other paint types open the complete palette of colors, take much less time, and you can spray the complete print with clear acrylic spray, to protect the text and even smooth the complete surface...
Thanks for that considered response and advice. My experience with getting paint type stuff on the surface where you don’t want it is that its very hard to fully shift it. I guess with thinners and suitable solvents that might be ok though
They sale paint sticks to do this with, that is what we used in aerospace plants, rub it in let it set and wipe excess off and you are done, I used this on my gear shift knob in the car
"Paint sticks?" Do you mean like kids use? I've not really heard of that. Any chance that you could post a name of a product so that we can search. Your method sounds interesting as well as less work-intensive. So far, the only way I've done lettering is using sunken letters like shown here, then using a colored sharpie to fill in. But I have to be careful. If I print an object in a light color, which I often do for cases for my electronic gadget designs, I often use a beige or steel gray color and if I use a black or dark sharpie, (very fine point ones) the ink can leach into the edges and show through. But, it works (ish). LOL So please, if you can, please post a product name that is searchable. I'd like to give your idea a try.
TLDR: Emboss letters in 3D, mask non-letter area with soap, fill with white silicone and rub off mask when dry
Deboss, not emboss.
17:32 - "This is one of my 'shorter' videos." (And wouldn't it be TL/DW?)
Nail polish, thinned with a bit of acetone. An 18 gauge blunt needle on a syringe. Fill it up, put the needle into the engraved text and carefully trace out your lines. Once you get the hang of it, you can do it without error and the finish is solid and permanent.
I tried this once, but the nail polish seeped into the layer lines and it looked pretty bad. I didn't even thin it.
Depending on the finish you're looking for, you may need a deeper offset/deboss (0.5 -1.0mm) and you may need more than 1 coat. Fill it up - it'll shrink - especially when thinned. If you're planning on sanding the final surface and spraying a hardcoat, you can overfill and sand it flush.
You could definitely hit it with a quick clear coat and that’d more then likely keep it from seeping through any layers.
I like the needle and the liquid idea. Use liquid 3D printer resin and buy it in white or clear then a set of alcohol resin dyes. You could fill it and UV cure it even. There’s also a UV curable silicone available i think. 🤔
I use the needles mainly for glueing, but have used it for paints, as well. Never used resins, but now that you've mentioned it, I'm definitely going to try it out.
Just saw your video, very nice. I used a different method. I printed by using raised letters and white filament, spray painted the part with matte black paint and then sanded the lettering exposing the only letters as white. Maybe a few less steps. Just proves that with 3D printing there are multiple solutions.
Nice idea. Thanks!
Old school soaping. I learned this in the 70's and is still one of the best ways besides masking fluid.
I find that just painting on acrylic paint and wiping it off with a lint-free cloth works well. Doing it twice, with the 2 wipe-offs at 90 deg to each other deals with wipeout on some letters.
Really nice I thing you could use a negative draft angle to allow the silicon to have a larger area deeper in the letter. Like they do with mercury tooth filling.
i wonder if the acute angle at the surface would also act as a sort of blade to help cut off the residue on top of the soap, leading to cleaner edges and reduced risk of dragging a letter out of the hole when cleaning it up
To keep the letters from coming out like your letter L, you could taper the indents in the 3D model instead of 90° sides so the deeper they go the wider they are. This would provide more of a mechanical lock like a dovetail and may allow finer lines at the surface.
That's a great idea
There is a strong glue/sealer called Soudal T-Rex (white), that I've used with your soap technique and it works perfect, it won't come out and it's a lot harder than silicone. thank´s for this tutorial
I just saw this video and have used this technique in the past. I recently purchased a new 3d printer with multiple spools and made lettering much easier.
Done some of the embossed lettering in even smaller scale the thing is way easier than what you did. 1. Go to any "Chinese" multishop and buy a set of brushes for nails - cheap various sizes. 2 Use modelling acrylic paint (Tamiya, Vallejo, AK) 3. paint the letters inside you can use the moderate amount of paint to fill in the grooves. 4. Take a q-tip and remove the excess paint from around the borders with water. 5 Add varnish for flavor if you want. Done
I used lightweight spackling compound in my P-40 throttle. I even used it in the "P" of a prop lever from a real Shakespeare throttle quadrant that I restored. So far, it's working, but I'm thinking of applying some clear paint over the knobs to help seal the lettering a bit better. Thanks for the video!
Those knobs are so well designed.
I can see someone modifying them, perhaps to remove the text and put their own on it and filling in the center hole to create a hole that fits some device they want to make new knobs for. (resizing of course).
Those would make cute radio control knobs.
Nice work!
Just randomly stumbled onto this, wandering through 3D print videos. If you're able to manually swap out colors, you can model the letters as a separate object, and simply print them in white, right in the same layer as the black part. I made some custom key caps for my steno keyboard with this technique in Prusaslicer (set up 2 extruders, and check the box for single print head, and it'll auto-add the color change code, which pauses the print, moves the head out of the way, and beeps to let you know to change colors). These were printed face-down, for geometry reasons, but also to get really smooth faces, and I just made the legends one layer in thickness. I couldn't get Prusaslicer to do the obvious thing - just print the letters, then switch colors and print everything else - so it made me switch twice - printed surround in white, switch to black, print letters, switch back to white, print the rest - but two switches isn't too much work. You could also do this on a top face. With white letters, you may need 2 layers to get the opacity you want, but again, it's only maybe 4 manual color swaps in all. Here's a little gallery of the results: photos.app.goo.gl/ESNPo86SNm2ZRxNF8
Hi, thanks yes, we're doing this now for a few things but it works best when the top surface is flat. When there's a curve it's a bit tricky.
@@AuthentiKit cool! It's fun, but I feel like your technique gives a more authentic look.
Thanx for this!!!. Tried and tested and is actually perfect. To improve applying the silicone- in your slicer settings do an iron top layer, that way you wont get the grooves on the top layer. I have found a way to make different colour lettering!!!!!! as theres not many colours available in silicon
When doing this sort of thing for 3D printed, subtractive lettering, you can add a slight undercut to each letter to help hold in the pigmented material, whether it's silicone, resin, or paint.
Thanks, I gave up on my Spitfire IX trim wheel after making a mess of my airscrew lever. Now I'll be able to go back to it with confidence!
have you tried the "iron" top layer feature in your slicer. this would reduce the lines and space to get into.
Another thing can be a filament change at a layer to white for a few layers, then change back to black. This will leave a white ring on the knob, but you can fix with appropriate spay paint, which may give a more authentic look.
I agree. Both good options. Black sharpie would fix the white line quickly
I use Testors model paint and wipe with Naptha using a Kim Wipe. I used to do old Tektronix Oscilloscope panels all the time.
Great technique, although I'll probably use my pneumatically controlled adhesive dispenser with the syringe filled with paint. Press the foot pedal to dispense paint from a needle into the embossed lettering while moving the needle in the letters to spread it around. Gravity and surface tension do a lot of the fine detail work as the paint self levels and wicks up the sidewalls. Let it dry and then spray everything with a few layers of clear coat to seal the surface, level the surface over the lettering, and protect it from gunk getting into the lettering or abrasion.
That soubds perfect. I’ve alsotried syringes but its hard to get even pressure. Now a foot pedal would be great.
@@AuthentiKit - The foot pedal activates a switch that opens a pneumatic valve to pressurize the top of the syringe. The pressure is adjusted by a pressure regulator to dispense the fluid at the proper rate depending on viscosity. When the foot switch isn't pressed, the top of the syringe experiences vacuum from a vacuum generator to almost instantly stop the flow and prevent any dripping or oozing. The vacuum pressure is also adjusted based on the fluid's viscosity. It works very well. New units are expensive but used models can be purchased inexpensively.
Very nice!
You might consider making the letters a wedge shape so that the silicone won't peel out as easily.
Also I wonder if there are dyes you could add for different colors.
What a great idea !
Thanks for documenting your process, it’s a cool idea. You’ve inspired the entire comments section to think up a better way. Maybe a follow up video could include a comparison of the top commented techniques.
I've been wondering about that. Sometimes it's horses for courses too - depending on the type of printed item.
This is exactly what I need. Engraved letters are too narrow to paint but you need something to make them stand out. My only concern is that this looks like a lot of effort, but until I get a dual filmament printer, it's a great option.
You don't need a dual filament printer. All you need to do is insert an M600 line in your GCODE and manually swap colors. EVERY slicer has this option.
@@tvideo1189 That works if your printing different levels completely. Embedding one colour filament in a level with another colour like this would mean a huge amount of swapping. It would be virtually impossible.
@@DerekCroxtonWestphalia I have no idea what you are saying. Printing another, different color layer in the bottom of the incised letters level is easy and I have done it MANY times. You do end up with a layer in your print that is the layer color of the letters, but that hardly detracts at all... even looks kinda cool in lots of instances.
@@tvideo1189 You print a whole layer right at the bottom of the letters? Okay, that could work but you don't end up with filled in letters like he has here, plus as you point out it means the whole layer is a different colour. Good for you if you like it, that's not what I'm going for.
@@DerekCroxtonWestphalia you wouldn't have to do a whole layer, you could print an outer ring of the base color and then fill in the rest of the layer in a white disc. you could do this for multiple layers for thickness as long as your top layer(s) were all black
Thank you so much for introducing me to this technique! Quite fascinating!
Printing with two different colored filaments could make that one too. But this one is also a very interesting approach. But i recommend to use the smooth surface feature in Cura slicer for the top finish, to have it not stick else where then just the lettering. Those parts would be ideal for that slicer setting.
Good suggestion - the ironing thing?
@@AuthentiKit Yes
Thank you for the technique. I've had similar good luck with smooshing air dry clay into the embossed areas of parts. It can be cleaned off easily before it dries.
Years ago when working for Collins Radio, I had to 'refurbish' front panels. They had similar indentations for lettering. We used a white crayon and just rubbed it back and forth over the indented lettering....worked every time, no muss no fuss..
Brilliant solution! I have a multicolor printer, but the general idea of using dishwashing jiquid as a mask for some other substance is very generally applicable.
Thanks - it does work well though to be honest i tend to use decorator's caulk these days as it wipes off more easily
Print the letters raised instead of sunked, print in white. Spray paint black, then take a file and fub down the letters. Simple.
Nice idea. Thanks!
Or with raised letters, if it’s the highest part of the print, print with black and add a pause in your slicer when you get to the letter layer and switch to white filament for the letters.
@@1RDriver Certainly works if you are using FDM but not with Resin
It's possible to swap filaments on *any* 3D printer. It just takes some manual labor at a few points. For lettering like that you can usually get away with 2 or 3 layers at most which is about 6-ish manual swaps. That's a lot less work than this technique, looks professional, and is as durable as the knob itself. With that said, a true authentic look probably would be paint.
The problem with that is that it's easy to manually swap filaments in between layers, but difficult (or impossible) to manually swap filaments mid-layer. So it only really works if your text is embossed completely above the surface of the rest of the print. Luckily, the price to entry for automatic multi-filament printing is down to $350 USD (Bambu Lab A1 Mini + AMS Lite), so it's become quite affordable.
@@guspaz There is a filament change GCODE. Most if not all printer firmware supports it. If you don't have an automatic changer it will pause and do all the stuff it's suppose to like retract the old filament then wait for you to insert the new filament. Works exactly the same as the automatic system and can do anything it can except you have to do manual work to remove the old filament and insert the new each time.
You can also use a 3D Printing Pen with white PLA, but in the end you have to sand it to perfection.
Have you thought about using a negative draft angle for the letters, so that the silicone is *mechanically* locked inside the cavity?
Great idea
@@AuthentiKit Was thinking same, or a connecting sub-surface tunnel.
@@andyu69 Split it in half, tape over the exit of the letters, fill the inside with silicone (letters joined as you say with channels/tunnels) so it pushes out to the surface, then join the halves either with screws from the back so not visible or glue them
I've had good results using one layer of filament of one color for the lettering, then switching to the background color and printing the rest of the part. It's just one filament change near the start of the print, so it doesn't take as long.
I've started doing that on certain designs too
I watched a video similar this yesterday and it was less than 5 minutes and was an easier/cleaner technique.
Got a link?
@@AuthentiKit 😆👍
I would try sanding and polishing them first, then gently apply some release wax with a few layers of cloth backed by something hard. You might be able to use white epoxy then, which would be more durable and less prone to becoming grubby
Have you considered raised lettering? set a pause in the slice and change the filament color. Resume print and viola!
You’ll find that it may not be so easy on the bigger wheel.
Wouldn't it leave one or more layers of color on any layer that's at the same height as the letters?
@@peterkn2 correct. one can maybe achieve this with custom gcode and a lot of patience, but at this point just get a multi material printer
@@peterkn2 I haven't had that issue. I modeled a part with raised letters and made sure the height was evenly divisible by .2 (1mm) and it worked great. The first color was orange and the letters were white.
I used yellow TPU to print large custom raised lettering on some black TPU mud flaps that I made for my Japanese mini truck. It turned out great. It wouldn't be as nice with smaller lettering because FDM print resolution is fairly low, and it also wouldn't work in the example shown because the control wheels had portions that were higher than the lettering. Raised lettering is seldom the highest portion of an object because it'd be scraped off by contact with other objects coming in contact with it. That's why most lettering is engraved (negative, below the surface) rather than embossed (positive, raised).
Fun fact, soaps can also be used for plaster mold release.
That’s a great technique! Thanks for the tutorial!
White out (liquid paper) pin, or the chrome paint pins if you want chrome instead of white work well also. Obviously if you have the time to watch the print you can stop your 3d print swap to white, print 1-2 layers of the letter surface, then switch back to black but that is hard to get the timing right. Though 2 color printers are cheap enough these days if you are doing a lot of it it. You can actually take the filament, measure out the length, splice in some white so that it will print white at the right point, but that is hard to get perfect.
Using the silicone technique (or any other fill/paint) if print a stencil with the part (so a 2-3 layer thick part that just has the letters cut out that will line up with the letters in the part, can use indexing pins/holes also if need be). lightly glue stick them together. Apply the silicone or paint. Let cure, pull off the stencil. Then use a sharp razor to trim the letters to surface height if you got too much in them.
Acrylic "artist" paint is useful for various filling, fixing, indexing and insulating jobs! Non aggressive, permanent(ish) but generally removable, cheap, colorful, great shelf life, water soluble when wet. Decently fast setting. It does shrink a bit.
@6:10 I was awaiting for the Bob Ross taking over the voice.
If you don't like sanding (like me, tho I print in PETG mostly and it's horrible to sand) you may wanna try scraping / shaving. Simple putty knife works great, just practice a bit to find good angle (around 90 degrees), bent it a bit (using side works better) and shave.
Similar technique as using card scraper in woodworking, probably scraper would work even better but never used those tbh
🇺🇸 We have Dawn, Ajax, Mr. Clean.
🇬🇧 Brits have Fairy Liquid.
‘Says it all.
Well i thought Mr Muscle would be a bit aggressive :-)
I see a lot of great techniques suggested here. Thank you all. I recommend that the lower layers of the lettering be undercut so the silicone can fill a cavity locking it in place. Since I restore / repair antique radios I wish I had the tools and skills to recreate knobs and odd trim pieces with a 3D printer.
Yes, the undercut is a great improvement on the method. For antique radios i’d suggest a resin printer and get a free hobbyist copy of fusion 360 and just start playing with it. Knobs and trim are easy stuff with f360. all3dp.com/1/best-resin-dlp-sla-3d-printer-kit-stereolithography/
Silicone sealant can be thinned with naptha (white gas in the US or Coleman fuel), which apparently does not effect PLA. You could thin it enough to use a fine brush or a syringe to make sure the bottoms of the grooves are wetted. Neat idea and I will have to white sealant. I wonder if it can be colored easily. The acrylic paints can be good as well but they don't like getting wet.
Seems to be 'zippo lighter fuel' based on a quick google, can you confirm?
@@MikePreston-darkflib Yes, I think so. It is like a finer distillate of gasoline. Earliest petrol engines used it because it was being distilled for cleaning. The "gasoline" collection of molecules was a waste product from making lamp oil and burned off or evaporated away.
I notice your elevator trim indicates 'NH' & 'TH'. Presumably for Nose High and Tail High. Is that really what the P51 trim control indicated? In the states here, we usually refer to elevator trim as 'Nose Up' and 'Nose Down' . Just wondering if we in the states have had an evolution of nomenclature.
Another way that's easier to do is to find the last layer before the lettering and print that in white. Then finish the rest of the job after a layer or two of the white. This won't fill it in but it will be permanently white. The side effect is that the edge of the wheel will have a thin white ring at that layer but that might actually look good anyway. Just for looks you could coat the entire top of the wheel with clear to fill it in. The way you change colors is in the slicer with the change filament command. Or you can just use raised letters and all white.
I agree. I’ve thought of doing that too. You could use a black sharpie to hide the white ring.
I've heard of Unicorn Farts, but not Fairy Liquid. How hard do you have to squeeze Fairies to extract the liquid?
ROTFL 😂😂😂
Try one of the silicone mastic tools to press the mastic into the letters and clean up afterwards, they remove excess mastic completely from tiles and worktops
Thanks. Just been googling that. If the letter surface isn’t smooth, but curved with layer ridges will it still be as effective?
Nice! Thx for sharing. I tried something like this with extrudes text, but this looks much better. Maybe you could also use that white paint, that car fans are using to pimp the tires.
Tippex/whiteout is pretty good. Best probably is acrylic caulk as it wipes off easiest
@@AuthentiKit will try that definitely! Thx.
I only have 1 head, but I change filament.
I have both made raised letters and at the same level as the surface.
Use a cheap silicone sealant finishing tool or squeegee. Ones with flat, straight edges found in DIY & tiling stores for tidying up sealant gun silicone around worktops and bath edges. With a bit of practice, you can wipe over all the flat surfaces & the squeegee will leave silicone in the grooves and clean the flat surfaces as its drawn across. Each flat surface might need a very fine abrasive polish before hand but you might want to do that anyway for a nice smooth finish. Can use acrylic paint instead of silicone sealant which might peel over time as the sealant wont really bond with the plastic surface. Easier, cleaner and quicker than masking off with washing up liquid.
Is there a good clear treatment you can put on top to really solidify the lettering once you've cleaned it up? Like a spray on clear acrylic or something?
Not sure myself though I've never felt it needed it as long as the silicone is in securely.
Since I don't mind having the letters a little bit sunken and my lettering is in a plane parallel to the build plate, I do it the following way:
I let the printer come up to the plane of the lettering, switch the filament to white, let the printer continue for 2 or 3 layers, switch back to black and print 2 or 3 layers in black with the letters not filled in.
(Yes, that leaves a thin white strip around the periphery also, but I don't mind)
30 seconds with a black sharpie sorts the white line. That's another approach I've considered.
Fantastic Job! Absolutely beautiful!
Elephant in the room? Many 3d printers are multi-filament now (Bambu, Prusa, Creality). May take a little longer to print, but no post-processing or filling needed.
Wow you have a very nice sounding voice and your word choice is just so on point. You could charge money for that service! Just as a voice actor and instructor!
With 3D printing, it should be possible to give the lettering a "lip" or "inner bevel" of some sort (I'm sure there's a technical name for it) so the infill can't peal out.
Make the cavity for the letter bigger on the inside instead of having straight walls. Does that make sense?
I've been using regular spackle not the quick dry or lightweight. You put it on like frosting making sure it's all the way into the crevices. Let it get dry overnight. Sand the Spackle off and use a damp cloth or toothbrush. Personally I've been spraying my 3D prints with a clear coat
The cool thing about starting up your 3D printing hobby is that it's not as easy as people think it is, or rather entry level units lack features to make it less meticulous. Stay with me here, the silver lining here is that the 2nd hand market is great! You can get a gently used 3D printer for less than $200, and often it will come with filament because the frustrated seller will be happy to get it all out of their home.
That said, it also means that a person should self educate and experiment once they have their printer all set up. UA-cam is a huge resource, Made With Layers, Teaching Tech, CNC Kitchen to name a few. Start small, like these fine knobs this Content Creator is making, little gadgets like chip bag clips or kitchen hooks, etc.
It takes a while to complete a print, there's usually some post-processing, maybe some light sanding, and mistakes will be made but it's also a lot of fun! It helps if you're a type who enjoys journeys as much or more than destinations. :)
Will Fae liquid also work? Or Pixie liquid? Or how about liquefied Pixies?
Life was much more difficult before the X1C was released.
I would use a wide roller tip on my pinstriper tool before I went through all that. They're not cheap but they work and save a ton of time.
Very interesting! I have a Cessna switchbox which has no letters/lines/digits on it. I could make a new frontplate with your method. What program you used to do this job? I'm not good at designing yet... best regards from The Netherlands.
Hi, I use Fusion 360. Takes a little getting used to but worth the effort as it's very rewarding what you can learn to create!
@@AuthentiKit I too use Fusion 360. The learning curve was immense for me as I don't have a CAD design background.
But once one gets the hang of it, it's really amazing.
In seeing your knob designs, I wondered if you used Fusion and if not, what other, since the smoothness of the bumps around the edges are excellent.
White epoxy ink has been used to fill engraved panels on military equipment for over half a century. Why change?
A latex or rubber coated glove may also help rubbing it off.
Fairy liquid? That explains where all the fairies in the Isles have gone. Freshly squeezed, organic fairy juice. 😂
you think you can 3-D print a fully functioning PF1 Mustang because I think it would be awesome to put on VR headset look through the cockpit see the elevation speed and everything and fly from a VR headset now that would get my juices flowing and if you could do that maybe join in with someone else a group of people perhaps I might be a patriot
@@fram1111 that project is well underway
It would be possible to redesign the parts to accept a 3D printed disc insert with the text printed as the first layer in mirror mode, either a multi material system or just manual filament changes can be employed. and then glue the disc to the part, the text and the disc could be printed with a shiny glass like finish or a textured finish by using either a textured PEI bed or a smooth PEI bed.
This would be a much easier method of production.
.. or a print of white plastic sandwiched between the black so it shows through the letter cutouts?
What about using thinned enamel or other type of paint, put in a syringe and squeezed into the lettering grooves?
I was thinking the same thing, it sounds like that might be less work, right?
Those little tin pots of Humbrol enamel paint used for painting models. That stuff really sticks well. Clean off or thin down using white spirit.
I suppose for letters that big I would try using a ballpen corrector (dont know the name). preferably the one that acts like a pen as well, not the bottled up with a brush or the tape one of course. And for any other flat surface good old spray and flat piece of paper to get rid of the recess + 15 minutes sanding. Still a nice idea but the time and effort just doesn't make it a good option for myself. Maybe if I needed something fancy
OH and anything that melts like wax and can be done using a hot glue gun and scraped off flat if neccesary
Each to their own i guess. I’d hate to do all that sanding. Ive tried the tippex whiteout. Not bad in certain situations when the nozzle is narrow enough.
I'm so excited for the P51 parts! I should recieve my 3d printer next week and can't wait to get started. I'm having a hard time finding the "rig" on amazon in the US. The only ones I find have one single clamp. I feel I might regret that if I buy it. 😕
mount-it.com/products/mount-it-dual-monitor-desk-mount-for-13-27-inch-screens-mi-752
me again...forgot to mention a way to get various colours that are not available in silicon from previous reply!!!!- i used acryilic paint ,any colour, mixed it with the silicon, enough to get the colour i needed, RGB, red blue yellow black can make close to any colour you want
I wonder, if the letters would stay in even more reliably with one tweak. If the letters had a very small amount of negative chamfer, so the bottom of the groove is about one line width larger the top. Then once the silicone dries, it "can't" come out - it won't through the top of the groove.
I like it!
What about using the white tape and heated stylus libraries use?
Why not print a bit of excess material, fill up with whatever paint, and sand off the top layer including the grooves?
Could work - personally I hate sanding
Looks good. Trying to color fill some printed fire handle caps for my 737.
There is a chemical call PVA poly vinyl acetate whis is used as mold releasing agent. I think that would make your job much quicker and cleaner. It is certainly more expensive than your fairy liquid but time is money and i think your overall results would improve.
PVA is also the formula of simple plain white scholar glue. Since it may became transparent when dried, maybe it is neccessary to add some white pigment to it (maybe some household item like gipsy or corstarch would do?), but it may get the job done.
Other option a litte more expensive but faster is use 3d uv resin with white pigment. Apply it, clear the excess, expose to sunlight and it cures in a few seconds.
Nice! Thank you!
Very cool technique, well done!
Would it be possible to print the black part, then switch to white filament and print the letters into it?
It's on a curve so no, otherwise yes you could
Raised lettering would be much easier to paint than recessed lettering. If you can modify the print to include raised lettering, do that instead.
Unless you have a shaky hand, the painting process will require virtually no unnecessary clean up.
Of course, for inlay painting, your vid technique works quite well. Thank you.
Whoever wants to do something like that today probably uses an AMS (multi material system) and just prints it in multiple colors…
If the letters are raised enough, you just roll the paint out like old printers did on a surface and just press the letters into the paint and lift. All painted at one shot.
I know there are some layer lines as you pointed out, but the surface is remarkably smooth. What orientation did you print these?
Just regular orientation as you’d expect.
Have you tried ironing the top layer of thr print to reduce the filament ridges?
Could help yes, though when the top has a gentle curve i think it would be marginal
Why make it so difficult, just print in 2 colors and then spraypaint the outer ring with a black paint. Way easier and cleaner.
A crinkle finish black paint would hide the layer lines and defects before the white.
I remember Fairly Liquid. They had some minor rock hits back in the 70s
That looks much easier that acrylic painting or swapping filament mid print!
Good work bro. That helps a lot. Thanks for sharing.
this looks a lot more fun than hours of sanding in thight spaces
Agreed - I have no patience for that!
I bet some added white pigment in the detergent would help you see where it is applied.
Nice idea!
CAD software - Place lettering on the design. Bambu LAB printer can color in the letters. Then simply print the product. I appreciate the efforts here, but there are better ways.
Almost like @josephpk4878 I like to use casting resin applied with a needle. Hobby Lobby has little bottles, I think in the model paint area, that have needle type applicators that worked well on my last project.
Interesting idea, though I would have enjoyed a 5 minute condensed version of the video more. Thanks for the upload.
Fantastic. How did you get those parts so perfect though?
0.12 layer, printer is fairly dialled in but not exceptional
Given you have digital files of it, would it not be easier if you drew a template around the letters, cut it out in vinyl (machines do it perfectly) place it on top, do the silicon thing, peel of the vinyl template..the clean up process would be a lot easier
You're right - yours is a superior solution but the idea of this technique was something "good enough" with readily available materials
@@AuthentiKit oh yeah don't get me wrong I had never thought about using silicon, I really like the idea you came up with!
That's a pretty good result. But, unless the filler must be a silicone for any reason, and you have bought the whole set of acrylic paint just because of the brushes, why not give these colors a chance? Use as small and pointy brush as possible, thin the paint if necessary, and just fill the letters as precisely as you can, but there's no need to be overly careful, if some of the paint gets on the top surface, that's OK. When the complete text is filled, give it a couple of minutes, then wipe the excess paint from the top surface with paper tissue moderately wet with acetone, thinner, isopropyl alcohol, or water if the paints are water soluble. I never used PLA, so I'm not sure which solvents may damage it, and in general I'd suggest making a test sample plate whenever you use a new type of filament or resin. Do not soak the tissue, and do not press it with your finger into the text, to avoid pulling the paint out of the letters. Just put several drops of thinner onto it. You can use some kind of flexible spatula and span the tissue over its edge and use that to go over the text. If the surface is still foggy but most of the spillovers are removed, give it some more time and repeat the above a bit more aggressively, maybe with some more solvent. Once you find a sweet spot between how much the paint should be thinned, how long you should wait before wiping the excess off and how wet or dry the tissue should be, the whole process shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes, drying times included. Depending on the paint type, final drying time may be longer, but acrylic will dry pretty fast. There's nothing wrong with silicone, but other paint types open the complete palette of colors, take much less time, and you can spray the complete print with clear acrylic spray, to protect the text and even smooth the complete surface...
Thanks for that considered response and advice. My experience with getting paint type stuff on the surface where you don’t want it is that its very hard to fully shift it. I guess with thinners and suitable solvents that might be ok though
They sale paint sticks to do this with, that is what we used in aerospace plants, rub it in let it set and wipe excess off and you are done, I used this on my gear shift knob in the car
Thanks. Embossed lettering or debossed?
Raised lettering in 3D print.
Arial Bold font works well.
"Paint sticks?"
Do you mean like kids use?
I've not really heard of that.
Any chance that you could post a name of a product so that we can search.
Your method sounds interesting as well as less work-intensive.
So far, the only way I've done lettering is using sunken letters like shown here, then using a colored sharpie to fill in. But I have to be careful. If I print an object in a light color, which I often do for cases for my electronic gadget designs, I often use a beige or steel gray color and if I use a black or dark sharpie, (very fine point ones) the ink can leach into the edges and show through.
But, it works (ish). LOL
So please, if you can, please post a product name that is searchable. I'd like to give your idea a try.
@@BlondieSL No I don't think Aerospace companies will be using a kids paint sticks
MRK51123 - La-co Industries Inc Lacquer-Stik Fill-In Paint Marker
That’s a cool idea. I am favoring a more precise laser engraving n paint .Thanks for your sharing..❤
That looks awesome. 😊
What depth of engraved text have you found works best?
More can be better to stop the silicone dragging out when wiping it off - 1mm - 1.5mm is pretty good.