Toranaga Goes TOO FAR! - Shogun Episode 8 Reaction
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- Опубліковано 9 кві 2024
- Suzy & Steejo react to Shogun for the first time. Shōgun follows "the collision of two ambitious men from different worlds and a mysterious female samurai
Watch the unedited version here - www.suzylu.co.uk/ or / suzyluofficial
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Suzy & Steejo
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#shogun #trending - Розваги
広松の切腹には幾つかの意味がある。
① 最重臣が抗議の切腹をする程、虎永の降伏の意志が固いと大阪に思わせるため。
② 降伏に反対する虎永の複数の家臣が集団で抗議のための切腹、または謀反を起こす雰囲気を壊すため。
広松は会議の雰囲気から上記の必要性を覚り、広松１人の切腹によって最大の効果を得る事を瞬間的に決断し、実行した。
そして虎永も広松の決断を察知し、尊重した。
This was peaked television. I can't even breathe after that scene.
We felt bad but I think Toronaga is just as heart broken as we are. Imagine handling that situation.
What an episode
facts
Don’t worry, Hiromatsu also can’t breathe as well.
@@nont18411 at least it's a quick one 🙏
The time Hiromatsu interjected was when one retainer put his hands on his wakizashi. It was a way to deescalate. Otherwise more blood would have been shed in that meeting.
Also, Hiromatsu made a huge error earlier in the episode when he told the contingent of samurai waiting outside the preliminary meeting that Toranaga will attack since he would not send the priest back to Osaka with the message otherwise. Spies could be everywhere and there might be a spy within their ranks; that was a careless leak of communication.
The defeat and surrender needed to be sold and make their enemies overconfident and complacent. And what best way to convince the enemy than to convince your allies. And what better sacrifice than his own right hand man, who, in dying sells the defeat and makes up for the aforementioned mistake.
Also, that was why Hiromatsu called Buntaro to second him, not Yabushige or any of those senior looking retainers. He had to convey to him that the plan is still on. And that’s the coded message of “now you know how it feels to be denied”. It was not (at least not mainly) to humble his son or make him realize what he has done to Mariko. He went further and say “believe in your lord even when he seems to no longer believe in himself”. That was the most direct way of saying the plan is on without alerting any spy that there is even a plan.
Then there’s the exchange where Hiromatsu said to Toranaga that “you do believe in useless deaths” as a callback to episode one where he commits a retainer to death just for speaking out of turn towards Ishido. The understanding passed between them and the deed is done. And Toranaga was left there with the impossible task of keeping his Mask on, not showing weakness, not grieving his friend, and convincing everyone that he was broken.
そのとおりです。
..that random retainer was Hiromatsu's favorite grandaughter's (Fuji's) husband..
@@roninsct7017 yep, I’m just forgetting the name of that retainer from episode one.
It’s not “disgusting and savage” it is one of the highest forms of honorable death in their culture at the time.
Dude is literally cutting his own guts out and spilling them all over the floor. Romanticise it however you wish, its still disgusting. - Steejo
A Japanese here. I feel it's a bit nonsensical to judge the values of another culture - especially that from several hundred years ago by modern day western standards.
Why not use guns? Guns had only arrived in Japan in 1543 and though they were starting to be used in warfare, they were not the predominant weapon for the time period which this drama is set at. And for the samurais, who took honor in fighting with swords, to use guns would have been simply dishonorable.
Now, I am not romantacizing anything - just stating how it was back then. Of course, you are free to call us savages and find what we did back then disgusting. You feel what you feel.
Btw, I agree with the other comments saying you misunderstood what was happening. For a feudal lord of Toranaga's caliber, it is never that simple.
There's no way in hell that you can, with a straight face, say that someone's entrails, including partially digested food and feces, being spilled all over the floor is not disgusting. This is what I mean by romantacising, people think that because it's "honourable" that it's somehow beautiful. 🙄- Steejo
@@SuzySteejo thats exactly it. all the "guts and blood over floor" thing is just details, unnecessary details. the beauty lies in the longevity of the cause, and Hiromatsu-Sama knew his duty well. focusing on the details and doubling down on that isnt the righteous moment you think it is unfortunately. of course we all have opinions, try and recall the eightfold fence.
It's not "unnecessary details" it's literally the thing I was remarking upon, I you fail to understand that then I can't help you. - Steejo
Putting priest next to courtesan is next level historical trolling😂😂.
Poor courtesans😢
Torunaga arragned repeat customers for both the tea houses and the church. he was a businessman doing business.
@@m33p0 I see it more as a subtle way to expel them without actually saying it. All his moves have been preparation to the agenda he will execute when he wins, including the long period of religious isolation that will follow.
He knows the courtesans won't have a problem working next to a church, but the priest definitely won't want to do so, even if it's the only land they will offer him.
@@m33p0 yes after pillowing u can go to priest and wash ur sins and once your sins washed u can again come to tea house (courtesan). Good idea though😅
昔は聖なる寺院や神社のところに行って罪を洗う事ができ、罪を洗ったら、俗社会に戻って「色茶屋」に行って遊ぶ。それを精進明けの「精進落とし」と言いました＾＾精進とは、心身の身を清めを行い。
All for his lord.
For old friend
For the family.
For Japan.
He performed his duty with all knowledge of everything.
Self-sacrifice.
That was his duty.
He sacrificed both his loyalty and his life.
HIROMATU is truly a hero.
real OG all these fake thugs out here THATS A OGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
..not just his but his entire family from son to grandchildren..
real Top G
三十六计中典型的计谋，苦肉计！类似于诈降，为了让敌人相信这是真的，自己帮派的心腹必须死。
"Once loyalty begins, it does not have an end. Otherwise, it would not be loyalty."
I just don’t want you guys to misunderstand this story. I am sure that Hiramatsu’s Seppuku is not Toranaga’s plan. That’s Hiramatsu’s plan for his duty. And finally Toranaga accepted and respected Hiramatsu’s will. So this story is very sad and painful story especially for Toranaga.
あの切腹の一幕には多くの要素が含まれています。
・家臣の士気を確認
・スパイ調査
・降伏偽装
・時間稼ぎ
・hiromatsuと共同で行った最後の計略
海外で日本の歴史物語が注目されることは嬉しく思います。😁
Right before hiromatsu committed seppuku, he said “forgive me”….this is because the whole thing was his plan. Hiromatsu planned to sacrifice himself to keep the ball rolling. Toranago actually did not agree to it but he knew it was necessary
100% agree
..on a side note, the actor who plays Hiromatsu was specifically brought on board just to play this scene. He's also more or less played a father'son/ mentor role with Sanada in various films for over 30 years so that chemistry/ vibe is beyond authentic.
「御免(gomen)」を、この作品では “forgive me”と訳されましたが、少しだけニュアンスが異なると思っています。
罪を謝る意味ではなく、許可を得る意味が強く、また、その言葉には敬意を含んでいます。
「GOMEN」
Please forgive my selfishness. (There is no lie in my selfishness, which has put my life at risk.)
The term “Gomen/御免” is literally as “I’ll seek your permission later for an action I’ve already taken.” When employed by samurai, it conveys a meaning distinct from an apology. It could be used to signify that he has paid a visit to another’s residence, or to reject the other person, etc. In this context, it’s more akin to “I’ll act according to my will, then take my leave.”
I can see Toranaga nodded to Hiramatsu right before seppuku. They understood each other completely.
I'll put it simply... the seppuku that occurred was to support the internal conflict of his friend Toranaga and at the same time save the 3 generals behind him... if he didn't do the seppuku everyone there would fall. a sacrifice in every dimension.
It was actually Toranags plan to have his other vassals commit Seppuku, they were going to when one grabbed his tanto. Hiromatsu decided to do it instead as its far more effective for him to do so, Toranaga was not expecting it,, what they were saying in their conversation actually meant the opposite, now all the spies in Edo and even Toranagas own men will think he does intended to surrender. Hiromatsu basically just opened the gates to Victory.
if you notice: Toranaga give a Deep eye blink of determination to hiromatsu when hiromatsu going to do seppuku, hiromatsu know that he is going to be victory and hes death pave the way :D the eye acting IS BEYOND. if you notice body language from toranaga to hiromatsu you notice... THIS IS ALL A PLAN!!
Kinda wild that they managed to completely misunderstand the point of this episode... lol
@Erratas0701 Who knows what some of these guys got up to behind paper walls
it was not his plan to have his other vassals commit Seppuku. Them committing Seppuku like they almost did when they were getting ready to draw their swords would've jeopardized Toranaga's plan. That's why Hiromatsu steps in and makes the ultimate sacrifice.
Nah....Toronaga just wanted them to sign the surrender. But, when his generals either threatened to kill himself or attack their lord, the old guy sacrificed himself. Either way, with this demonstration and the priest report to Osaka, they will feel comfortable that a sick Toronaga who lost his son is beaten down.
It's not that making tea in itself is that special, it's the way Buntaro did it. The tea ceremony presented in that scene is an extremely detailed and ceremonial endeavor, even down to the way he opened the sliding door.
A vassal's greatest duty is to risk his life for his lord.
Hiramatsu realizes his greatest responsibility and commits seppuku.
It was a tacit understanding that we had spent many years together.
Reading the atmosphere of places that is commonplace in Japan
It is to say.
Modern Japanese people also cherish the atmosphere of this place.
Because you can understand without speaking
On the other hand, those who do not understand will be left out.
“To deceive your enemy, you have to deceive your friend first”
I think you two misunderstood what was happening. Toranaga was pretending to surrender. It was all a ploy. Hiromatsu knew this as well, and in order to convince the other vassals who were calling Toranaga's going to Osaka a play that it was a "real" surrender, Hiromatsu killed himself out of fake "protest" over Toranaga refusing to fight and "surrendering". Hiromatsu sacrificed himself to absolutely convince the other vassals (who they suspect might be disloyal and spies for Ishido) that Toranaga indeed is just a weak, sick man who is resigned to surrendering to Ishido at Osaka. This was a truly selfless and touching action on behalf of Hiromatsu--no other action would be sufficient to totally fool the other dissenting vassals (and possible spies) into thinking that Toranaga is surrendering.
Hiramatsu's seppuku was not a pre-arranged meeting with Toranaga.
The relationship of trust built over several decades has been completed.
This is a silent exchange between Hiramatsu and Toranaga.
Whether Hiramatsu is a senior vassal or not depends on when and how he uses his life.
He saw through Toranaga's plan and fulfilled his role.
The whole thing was a ploy to make Yabushige believe that he would surrender and join his side.
The greatest tea master of the Sengoku period was Sen no Rikyu.
Hirokatsu Toda (Tadaoki Hosokawa) is a disciple of Sen no Rikyu.
Tea ceremony is a samurai's advanced knowledge, and if its ability is not recognized,
cannot be provided to others
A famous tea utensil is a tea caddy called Kujuka Mina. (Matcha)
It's the same size as the small bottle Hirokatsu used to serve matcha.
In today's money, that's equivalent to about $650,000.
At that time, it was said that you could buy a country (today's Tokyo) with a piece of paper.
I properly cried during that seppuku scene. I don't like Buntaro but he was having a day
yeah i was like damn im so conflicted, i don’t like you but i feel so bad for you 😭
Toranaga didn't want or expect that to happen. But he knows if he had intervened the entire plan is screwed and their clan is finished. A truly gutwrenching experience, and the ultimate sacrifice by an honorable man. I'm not sure I've ever seen better ensemble acting than that. Watching them communicate silently through eye contact ... just an epic scene.
Some might question why the other lords did not revolt or stop Hiromatsu from committing seppuku. In Bushido or the way of the samurai, it is very dishonorable to go against your Lord Daimyo's decision, and the most acceptable or honorable means to protest against your lord is to commit seppuku. However the main reason why they don't go against their lord's wishes is the fear of losing fief, salary and most especially land. You don't bite the hand that feeds you and your entire family or clan, otherwise youll just be considered a ronin or rouge samurai. Thats why they are so loyal to their lords. A single disagreement with your lord daimyo would cost you everything, your life and your family, and even anything that's connected to your name. So if you protest by committing seppuku, your family legacy would still be in tact, and your lord may even maintain your land and financial support to the family you left behind.
If Toranaga surrendered, his vassals would either commit suicide with him or be slain resisting.
If Toranaga attacked Osaka Castle, they'd die in battle along with many of the defenders.
I think he's seeking a third option. And some people are going to die accomplishing it.
They're not getting out without people dying.
I get that its super distressing with Hiromatsu's sacrifice. But, you were against Toranaga's supposed stalwart rejection of conflict and deciding to go down without a fight, which he said was to not divide and destroy the realm of Japan.
This is what bloodshed looks like, this is what war is, Hiromatsu is just one of many lives that will die as a result of Toranaga choosing to fight.
You blame Toranaga for his death, when in reality his choice to fight required sacrifice, and will require many more sacrifices to come.
This is what you wanted. You cannot blame Toranaga for not fighting and not budging, and causing the death of Hiromatsu, when the plan to fight itself will inevitably lead to death and destruction.
45:29It is possible that there are spies from Ishidou at this location. For Toranaga, who needed to perform, Hiromatsu's actions would have been of the greatest help. He even used his own life to put on a show for his friend.
Lady Ochiba now loses her protection and can't control Ishido any longer, as the first wife of the original boss is now dead. That's why she later went to Ishido to pay her respect, rather than the other way around. In real life, Lady Yodo decides to quietly side with Tokugawa (Toranaga) but not be dismissive of Ishida's side (Ishido in this series).
Yep, now she is a wild card. Again. Unless the show decides to spin it as her power comes from being the heir’s mother.
How the show executes (which is mostly exceptionally well and in a consistent, thought out manner) is the biggest draw of the show for guys like me who know the history that the fiction is based upon.
The abyss of life→The bottom of abyss(Japanes title) has double meaning. Kabuki opera has lots of gimmicks under the stage it's call “abyss“ so a twist awaits at the end. Others pointed out and I agree too😊
There is a proverb in Mr. Son's military tactics that says, ``Before deceiving your enemy, first deceive your allies,'' and the death of his son (who did not even attend his funeral) and seppuku of a senior vassal were all part of this. His senior ministers saw through his plan that he had no intention of going against Osaka, and made his plan a success with his own death.
I think that's right.
I'm Japanese。
Mariko wasn't horrible to her husband. I have a feeling that she would've softened a bit if only he gave her the choice to kill herself (even if she didn't), the choice to avenge her family's death and the choice to outright suppor her. But I guess, seeing as he had controlled her desire for her to feel and think as she was, it made her shirk more and grew distant with him--which was the opposite of what she'd felt with John. Her husband always saw her as an obedient flower (not to mention the beatings she'd gotten from him). While John saw her as a woman of her own. That's why she'd rather live a thousand years than die with him. How can you choose to die with someone who barely knows you? When John was the only person she'd let him see her eightfold fence?
RIP marimatsu gone before his time! A true OG
Hi, I'm new to your channel and stumbled upon it while watching your Shogun reactions. Don't worry about the call-outs; it's natural to miss a few things on the first watch. Just consider them insightful suggestions and don't stress over it too much.
You two are such an adorable couple. Suzy calling Hiromatsu grandpa is the sweetest 😅❤
To agree to drink tea in a tea room means to speak one's true feelings without concealment. The entrance is intentionally made small.
海外のお茶の間はこんな感じなんやろなぁ
The series tells the life of Tokugawa Ieyasu, the unifier of Japan.
Ieyasu put last brick to wall after Nobunaga and Hideyoshi.
She didn't want to die,she wanted a choice and revenge...to die getting revenge,to feel that she has done something for her family
I teared up really good during the seppuku scene...
You guys were amazing in this reaction.. I salute you both.. the emotion and insight into the great bloody game of Chess this show is revealing to us. It’s exciting. This show is Brutally good. I literally spilled my guts out in sorrow that I lost my head in it. 😢
_"... literally spilled my guts..."?_ 😮
You bring shame to yourself, your family, and your clan by surviving your seppuku.
You should have chosen a worthy second.
Yeah, we lost grandpa....
"Grandpa" did that to keep up Toranaga's appearances in defeat. Mariko seems to be his first strike and it has something to do with diffusing Lady Ochibe in some way. Mariko was supposed to be Lady Ochibe, but her father married her off to Lord Bunturo, that's what y'all are missing. Maybe her sacrifice spurns Blackthorne and Bunturo into a rage.
7:39 I played the OG Castle Wolfenstein (1983) and Beyond Castle Wolfenstein (1984) on my brother's C64 back in the day and I know if I had the chance I would give him a kick in the head as well. ❤
Mariko has much larger role to play. She has to finish her fathers plan.
A leader must also be able to act in this way in order to save everything. If not, they will all die anyway.
Give it up for the actors on this episode as well as prior episodes.... so much going on with just the eyes and the body language. Just hand these actors the awards already.
I feel like crimson sky is going to be insane when we finally see it happen,with the bits of gore and sacrifices we’ve seen so far in the series I have a feeling that when we finally see crimson sky it’s gonna be the goriest event in the show
I think all the machinations are to avoid Crimson Sky. I think Toranaga wants a surgical strike, taking out maybe Ishido and Ochiba without spending armies in a siege.
@@chadnine3432well, you saw what Anjin's cannons are capable of
did she say Clogs after he questioned it? like the shoes? Cogs, love.
The author who wrote the novel made an universe called the "Asian" saga. If this show became successful because honestly it was a huge gamble to put this much money reviving this IP (and I think it paid off commercially and critically). Then it's natural that they adopt the other novels in this saga. Just like how Game of thrones spawned House of the Dragon and other prequel within the same universe but at different times. We might see an adaptation of "Taipan" next which is in the 1840's and basically how Hong Kong was born. Would be nice to see some nice callbacks and Easter eggs from shogun in a brand new setting.
The problem is toranaga can't trust anyone or we all need know there's a spy [ishido people] in that group and problem is we don't know who's the spy therefore yeah Toranaga can't speak or lay it out his plan that way, and Hiromatsu know the current situation and when he's speaking for Toranaga during the internal meeting it's pretty much telling him that I'll be sacrificing myself to buy you more time to take the right action then you can see the moment he woke up, he's not coughing anymore and Toranaga just made that shieht up coughing and pretending to be sick.
Looking at the comments section here, people seem to be forgetting that this drama is not based on historical fact, but rather a fairy tale from an Anglo-Saxon perspective.
The seppuku scene in Hiromatsu was apparently the idea of the performer, Mr. Nishioka, but it is still absurd and unrealistic from the perspective of Japanese history.
When you think of Japan, it's because of Clavel's somewhat stupid original work that emphasizes exoticism such as seppuku.
The acting is great though. Good acting that is rarely seen even in Japanese period dramas.
I also liked the emotional reactions of both of you.
Love this episode. The characters are awesome. What an intense scene. Enjoyed your reaction😂😂Bet you ain’t thinking about your seat anymore.
Go back in the episode 5 or 6, i don't recall, and observe how Taranaga calls Crimson Sky, he called it pointless death, meaning Hiromatsu actually knew Toranaga wanted to do crimson sky, he also knew the only way to fully make others believe Taranaga surenders is by leting his best mate commit seppuku..
Even after Toranaga sent priest to Osaka, Hiromatsu knew and told, yet nobody listened..
Toranaga might look inhumane, but he's great at strategy , and it's what it takes to win, in his position, anyways... Not many could sacrifice their friend like that, i know i couldn't. He's not idiot, he's just real strategic towards geting a goal completed.
He will sacrifice any piece on the board to get to be king
There is no peace without war
Let your vassals fight and die
虎永 he doesn't give up
Toranaga teamed up Yabushige(藪重) and Anjin.(按針)
My brother's army also joins in.
A large army joins in
My brother's army also joins in.
An army of over 100,000 people
Yabushige Anjin Mariko heads to Osaka by boat
Ōmi heads for Osaka by land with his army.
If Hiromatsu had not raised his voice in that scene, all of Toranaga's servants who opposed him would have had to commit seppuku. Hiromatsu assumed this responsibility himself and believed in Toranaga's true intentions. His death was not in vain.
No spoilers, but the tea making scene in the book was magnificent, the show is excellent but they missed a little there. The tea set alone was worth 20'000 koku, I can only assume they had to cut the context for space.
You have to laugh, 56:41 Yabushige & Suzy are both writing death lists of everyone that's bitten the bullet...
But did she rank it higher or lower than boiling...? 🤔
So, at this point in time all of his men, and enemies too, believed that he had a plan up his sleeve and had not given up. Hirumatsu confronting him and going through with it proved to everyone that Toranaga had given up, so that he actually could get away with a surprise move, if he is going to do one. Hiramatsu's death was therefore not in vain, and really did pain Toranaga, but he couldn't stop it. Might even be able to go so far as to say that Hirumatsu knew all along, but I can't confrim that.
敵を欺くには、味方から欺け‼親友の心ざし忠誠心を虎長も察した!
Nagakado was most likely positioned in the lotus meditation position.
Even though I'm watching this while I work, I'm no filthy skipper.
Yeah man! Get paid to watch UA-cam videos with this one simple life hack. - Steejo
@@SuzySteejo the benefits of working from home are endless.
Well actually as an expert in the comment section........I got nothing critical to say, I just loved your reaction!
Not finished with the episode yet (will delete if it gets covered), but Yoshii is the family surname. It’s Yoshii Toranaga and Yoshii Nagakado. But Yoshii is much easier to say than Nagakado 😂.
We actually spoke about it in a prior episode and Suzy said he looked more like a Yoshii XD - Steejo
@@SuzySteejo I vaguely remember something like that now 😂 Fair enough.
君達に日本人の忠誠心を理解することなんて出来ないし、文化を理解することも不可能に近いだろう。
我々日本人にしか理解できない美徳があるんだよ。
しかしながら、西岡徳馬さんの演技は素晴らしいの一言に尽きる。
There's a difference between understanding something and agreeing with it. - Steejo
@@SuzySteejoそもそも理解できないと言っただけで、同意は求めていないよ。
理解しようとする人は、"腹切"を内蔵を露呈するとかグロテスクだという安易な言葉で表現しないからね。
知らない事に関して話す時は特に慎重になるべきだね。
"You will know what it is to be denied" Buntaro needs to learn humility, the hard way - he isn't entitled to Mariko's love or affection. And her doing her duty by him as his wife does not require love and affection. You can't beat your partner, verbally abuse her, risk her life with an arrow show and then expect all to be forgiven. Mariko's brutal words do not erase or diminsh Buntaro's abuse (I wouldn't be surprised if he had been beating her for years)
Don't get me wrong, I do feel very bad for the guy - he lost his father and his wife will never love him. But his suffering does not erase his responsibility in sustaining Mariko's coldness to him.
She endangered their whole family by joining a banned foreign cult after he had saved her life. And she blames him when it's her father's treachery that wrecked her life. She is self pitying and arrogant
@@joeyartk So she should give up her life and commit suicide with a man who beat her mercilessly? A man who we have never seen, until now out of self-pity, give her an ounce of affection or care? Buntaro beating her, while using the excuse that he was drunk (even though he was able to accurately fire 2 arrows, demonstrating that he was indeed in control of himself) revealed his true character as a husband: he doesn't love Mariko, he wants to control her and it enrages him that she is beyond his reach.
It's ironic tragedy - Buntaro's commitment to his ideals as a Samurai make him a fierce warrior and loyal servant, but they also make him cold, harsh and abusive to his family.
And Mariko is not privileged to hate and shun Buntaro for her father’s decision to marry her off to a man that would shield her from his (Aketchi Jinsai’s) actions just because she feels entitled to be married better.
@@khaii13 what i dont get is even if she does hate the family she was wed into its not like she said it on buntaros face that she hates to be with him she might be cold to him but that doesnt give him the right to beat her it only makes their relation more worse its not like she has any say in her marriage she can only think in her mind why was i married to him
@@shantanutoraskar428 again, we don’t know what “being cold” means in the context of the show. We can speculate, but we can never really know. Also, I am keeping it strictly in the show interpretation and not intermixing it with their historical counterparts.
Imagine 14 years in which you are ordered to keep your wife alive, you can’t divorce her even if you wanted to, you do love her and you are conflicted between keeping her alive or letting her kill herself to remove the stain of being a husband to a traitors daughter from your name. That would be enough to drive almost any man crazy. And again, all of these can be inferred from the show as all being part of Aketchi Jinsai’s plans; but as for all the details and minutiae, we cannot know for sure.
Now going to the beating: you fight through hell and make it out despite thinking you’d die. You arrive home and you hear rumors that your wife is banging some foreigner even before the mourning period ends. And then on that dinner you can see how obvious said foreigner is acting so affectionately towards your wife. And you can’t touch the foreigner. You gonna just take that? I’m not saying it’s justified: NO MAN SHOULD ACTUALLY HIT A WOMAN (unless it’s a life or death situation). But unless you’re actually Buddha or God, you can’t tell me that you can’t at least understand where the man is coming from.
Toranaga: It’s a prank! 😆😆😆
The prank: 50:53
Nice hoodie!
Hiromatsu広松 loves Toranaga
I taught that to my son
Buntaro文太郎 and Mariko鞠子 will die together for Toranaga虎永
the nephew is traumatized
As Mariko said "Loyalty does not end".
Loved you guys' reaction to this. You're real ones, you two.
You ask if it’s his fault for not trusting his dad that he had a plan? Yes it is his fault! All season Toranaga has been trying to teach him something he never learned a single lesson. Only trust yourself. Don’t be eager to rush into something that you haven’t properly prepared for, sit back and let your enemy make the first mistake. Don’t be manipulated into doing others business unless you are the one doing the manipulating. Toranaga never plans for just one or two things. He has twenty pieces on the boards moving and he’s watching all of them. He’s been by his father’s side for so long you would think he would have understood just how good Toranaga is. He’s a master tactician and a master at deception. And he’s a master of the art of war hence the deception and patience. Toranaga says himself, he’s never lost a battle! Why? Because he was the the first to declare it
Well actually... you're both awesome and thats my expert Internet opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Which is has been more evil? Boiling pot or Mariko disrespecting a Patriot
Toranaga is playing chess. Everyone else is playing checkers.
Love your reaction where are you from??
Scotland :) - Steejo
Hate to sat told ya so about Toranaga being a bit of cold bastard lol
Hiro had no choice but to do that to spare most of his generals from committing Seppuku themselves, which Toranaga knew and accepted to give the false impression of genuine defeat to Ishido and Ochiba. He could not change his mind, especially when Hiro stepped in to do so in their place, as had he intervened to stop it, he'd have revealed his true intentions and that it was deception all along.
The unconditional loyal & ultimate sacrifice for the greater cause.
RIP Gramps
Breaking bad?
Seppuku is difficult to understand even for Japanese people. The scriptwriter apparently spent hours thinking about it.
But these two wonderful actors acted with their eyes. I was able to hear their heartfelt conversation. "Toranaga, I'm sorry. I'm very sad. But you're my best vassal and you understand me. I'm grateful and sad at the same time," Hiromatsu said. "Toranaga, you have to do what you have to do. We'll see you again in the Pure Land."
maybe？
Hats off to Hiromatsu, the most loyal and badass close friend you could never have. He went out like a G.
Where are you guys. I'm waiting for your reaction on episode 9.
You don't become Shogun unless you are ruthless and merciless. toranaga is trying to make the best of the situation at any cost.
If you have a best friend like Toranaga, why bother having an enemy at all?
It raises the difference between Mariko and Hiromatsu's view of life and death.
肉を切らせて骨を断つ
There’s actually a very important audience hand-holding moment that is very easily overlooked which happened when Anjin had an audience with Yabushige: it’s when the samurai said “Since he is a foreigner, I will overlook this mistake”
For context, at the end of Ep7, Blackthorne spoke out of turn and walked out on an important meeting. For that he should have been ordered to commit seppuku to redeem his honour; or had been beheaded as a common criminal.
Instead Toranaga tells him through Mariko that “his services are completed” and returned his rutters (no actual mention of returning the ship and guns) AND that his consort will take care of all his estates (which, by rights he could have been stripped of).
Back to Yabushige’s line: this shows to the audience what the Japanese disposition towards the Englishman is. He will continuously be ignored and underestimated by the Japanese. Therefore, Blackthorne can be an ace (or at least a wildcard) that Toranaga can guide and manipulated into position and put into play without anyone suspecting anything. This is also why the rutters were intentionally given before coming into Edo, and why he was housed outside Toranaga’s palace: to completely sell that even Toranaga see’s no value in the foreigner.
Torunaga: "I need time to copy-paste sh*t tons more arquebuses so my shooters don't have to reload and just pick up new ones."
Nagakado and Hirumatsu: "Say no more, fam."
smart... so freakin SMART.. ;-)
I don't think Crimson Sky as a military plan but rather a political coup..a plan to turn some of Ishido's allies against, in particular, the Christians. It's also a hostage rescue of the regent's families and Toranaga's who were left behind. The plan, I think, involves sacrificing Mariko ,a christian, thus swaying at least two of the regents and by saving the hostages possibly swaying more..
At that time, Hiramatsu made the best and greatest decision a samurai could make in order to avoid division and to improve the command of Toranaga, his subordinates, and the Toranaga army in the war that was about to begin. was. ``I do what I can to the best of my ability when I can. I risked my life to protect Toranaga and his clan and raise their morale.'' This is one of the samurai spirits. If things had remained as they were, Toranaga would have sentenced the other daimyo to commit seppuku, and he would have to do so again. Or maybe many people have betrayed him.
Hiramatsu knew that Toranaga was willing to fight, but he thought there might also be a spy there. In order for Osaka to know that Toranaga had been completely defeated and had lost his morale, Hiramatsu's seppuku was the ultimate wedge. When Toranaga told Hiramatsu to die, Toranaga said in his heart, ``Hiramatsu, I understand how you feel,'' ``Thank you for your loyalty,'' and ``I will not let your death be in vain.'' The chief expressed his gratitude and told Hiramatsu that his death would not be in vain. It's eye contact. They understood each other through eye contact.
Which is more important, extending the life of just one family or Japan as a whole? Toranaga's words that Japan should not be divided.(Well, this is just the way the old raccoon dog Toranaga (kind of like Ieyasu) dresses up)
However, the pride of a samurai.
Hiramatsu's feelings were, ``If my life will raise the morale of the clan and unite them, then I will happily dedicate my life to loyalty.'' Almost synonymous.
まぁ、わからんだろうな。
Buntaro and Mariko both wanting to exit Earth for their own specific reasons but not thinking about the son that they will leave behind. Poor kid.
"To deceive your enemy, start with your allies."
It's all Toranaga's strategy.
Live and die for your lord.
That is the duty of a samurai, and of anyone who bears a sword.
"The way of the warrior is to die."
Buntaro deserved better. From a selfish wife to a cruel Lord damn.
切腹の場面が唐突に見えますね。いかにも欧米人が喜びそうな衝撃的場面を盛り込んだって感じで、所詮テレビなので視聴者が喜びそうな、引き込まれそうな演出に妥協せざるを得ないんでしょううけど。
I will die on this hill and I know I would get a lot of flak for this given that I have a male portrait:
I love that Mariko declined Buntaro's offer for a mutual suicide in the tea house scene. How she went about it and her choice of words, not so much. lets break it down.
1. From the flashback on episode 6, we can glimpse that Buntaro had always longed for Mariko. Mariko, on the other hand never really liked him, or even looked down on the Toda clan back then (confirmed by her saying to Ruri-hime that the Toda clan is a worthless alliance and that his father is casting her aside; and later to Toranaga that his father should have married him better)
2. We learn from the Toranaga couple's councelor arc that Buntaro did try ti aooease her but her icy demeanor never melted. And that he had to bear double insult of Sparing the life of a traitor's daughter; who later converted to Catholicism. double whammy right there.
3. then Toranaga revealed that, in fact, distancing her from the fight and marrying her off to someone who ensured she lives was part of her father's plan... BUT, come episode 7, she requests Toranaga to allow her to end her life.
we are coming from all that build up before the tea-house scene. so you can see a great deal of inconsistency in her character. it's either that or she is being consciously spiteful and saying the most hateful and vile thing that she knows will break his husband at this point. AND IT MAKES NO SENSE UNLESS THE PLAN WAS TO MAKE MARIKO SO DISLIKEABLE. and then to go around later and tell blackthorn that "when loyalty starts it has no end otherwise it is not loyalty", I call hypocrite. Just the previous episode, you asked for death from Toranaga who revealed to you your own father's grand design (a betrayal of your duty to your father and then to your Lord), then a scene before you rejected joining your husband in a seppuku of protest (a betrayal of your marriage); you really are in no position to berate and/or remind Blackthorne about the importance of loyalty.
Now, let me throw an olive branch and suggest how to better handle the scene (I am no writer so this is rudimentary but would make more narrative sense and progress Mariko's arc in a more positive way). "When we were a younger couple I resented you for the wrong reasons (this works as a good opening statement as it is an admission also of her misreading the great plans his father for her); and I know i have caused you great suffering by repeatedly asking you to let me die all this years (this shows accountability); BUT I have always respected Buntaro, the great warrior. What you are saying now dishonour's your father who have said earlier that he Believes Toranaga will fight. It dishonours our Lord whom you also doubt. And you dishonour yourself. I would sooner live a thousand years than die in this manner which you suggest"
Again, I am no writer and this is just a rudimentary thing, but I think this would have rounded her character more and would connect with her entire arc from the beginning (where we have been told that she did indeed want to die for she thought that was her duty then) to the present with every new information revealed to her giving her that change in perspective. I especially hate the fact that she did the right thing by rejecting his offer for death, and they use that as an excuse to give Mariko the right to act so vile, petty, and cruel.
And before anyone types the Usual Butthurt crap: NO, that does not mean that Buntaro's previous actions were excusable. Of course it is wrong for her to lay hands on her wife. And if he can show such effort in something as delicate and meticulous as the tea ceremony, he should have tried to communicate better with her wife instead of being this clumsy around her as we saw on screen. BUT. Nonetheless. It does not justify what she did to him here.
I agree with a lot of what you've said but disagree that Mariko's statements should change. In my opinion she wrote off Buntaro and sees him as only a burden to bear. I think that her hypocrisy is a very human character flaw that does make her unlikeable in some instances. She always knows to say the right thing at certain times but some times that mask slips. - Steejo
@@SuzySteejo oh definitely. And I love that the writers didn’t make her some sort of paragon of virtue and righteousness. And I do welcome differing opinions as it might help reveal blind spots in my own reasoning. Cheers, Bruv!👊🏾
城に立てこもったら、民衆の一部も家臣もほとんどが
死ぬ可能性がある事を理解出来なければ、この事は理解できない。
だからこそ、日本人にしか分からない部分なんでしょうね。
自分の命１つなら、喜んで死んでいたでしょう、でも、それ以上の死が
求められるからの動きなのです。彼の行動により、260年の戦のない平和が続いたのです。
they cut the belly because thats where they believe the soul resides and by doing that they're freeing it
This shows starting to drag. Last 4 episodes were so boring
That's prob because you have to be able to read to follow along