A few corrections: -The brothers do not work for the FBI. I got this mistaken impression as they use fake IDs claiming they are agents in the 200th episode. -When I state 'Dean' had next to no love interests I completely misspoke. The Tumblr post in question was talking about Castiel. A correction appears on screen during this section but it seems some missed it. -Minor thing but when the convention footage plays at around 19:15, the sound will only play through one side of your headset, so if youre listening with just one earphone, be mindful of that. -'J2' was not just the name of the RPF ship but a name referring to the two actors in general. Fanlore's page on 'J2' exclusively mentions the RPF hence my confusion. The site is usually a lot better about this sort of thing so I took them at their word. -“Tinhatting” does not originate as a term from within the fandom, though it was rather prevalent in it regardless. -A lot of discourse around whether or not the show queerbaited in the comments....I've not seen it so when I claim that it definitley was queerbaiting, I am simply parroting the opinions I see commonly held within the fandom. The show is 15 seasons long and this is specifically about *the fandom*, not the plotlines on the show itself
No, he really didn't. He hurriedly misspoke in answer to a question and it was taken as him coming out, but that was never what it was. This was blown up by Jai (toxic fan) and it took off. So because of people's reaction, he had to speak out and confirm that he is in fact straight. He has stated before that he's straight. And unless he officially says otherwise? It's nobody's business.
Hi, just wanna jump in here real quick and say that while I am sure people use “J2” in Fanfics and other romantic context, it is not their shipname! The majority of us use the term J2 simply when we refer to the both of them, in a non-romantic way. :) Even the crew and other cast mates call them J2 - that’s why they used it on the show, in that one clip you showed.
Ah my mistake, thank you! I was a bit unclear on this but I predominantly found reference to the term in relation to RPF but I must've gotten the wrong impression, thank you!
please enlighten us all about Racist Ghost Truck episode, I have questions. For some reason Im imagining that it lives in an abandonned drive-in movie theater and watches Gone With The Wind every night
@@DavidMChannel 😣unfortunately not, it’s a ghost truck avenging the life of its racist driver who killed black people by killing the people who killed him
@@DavidMChannel basically there was a racist guy with a truck and then he and this guy got into a fight and the guy ended up killing him and then the racist guy with a truck became a ghost and haunted the people who covered up his death by killing them with his truck. oh and dean was revealed to apparently have an ex-girlfriend named cassie who seemed lovely
I’ve heard the show runners retooled some storylines with Dean and a female angel (intended to be his love interest) to involve Castiel instead because of how quickly he became a fan favorite
Yep, they completely cut out the end game character for Dean and gave all her scenes and moments to Castiel. Can't even have one damn woman in the series I swear
to be fair, people saying misha was bisexual was nobody’s fault but misha’s cause he literally said he was bisexual. on stage (i still don’t understand why anyone would do that and NOT expect the consequences). which is so fucking funny, the only actor to have to come out as straight
As far as I know recording wasn't allowed there (but I can be wrong). He said it really quiet, the audience didn't react at all. I don't think it was intentional and than he had to cover that up with saying he's straight. Misha implied he is bi before, so maybe he didn't think fans would react differently this time
I genuinely find it very funny how little of supernatural you watched to make this video and how little that probably mattered to the content of this video, lol. I've watched the show up thru to the first few episodes of the 10th season and had to quit from the fatigue of it all, and I actually enjoyed the show. It's definitely too much to watch for one youtube vid if you don't have much interest in it. I'm glad you didn't torture yourself.
I grew up in the supernatural fandom (still partake on occasion) so i watch and judge every video that claims to be a fandom deep dive. You are the first reviewer I've seen that was able to really capture the madness of spn fandom and even mention some stuff that i missed out on before i was in the fandom. Great work, you have my respect as an internet historian/journalist
honestly being on tumblr the night the superhell episode aired is one of my favourite memories of being online. this, the mishapocalypse, and misha accidentally coming out as bi, can only be rivaled by goncharov. that's how big of an impact the fandom had on tumblr as a whole.
4:21 LOVE the Ouran High School Host Club representation. It’s my favorite of all time and getting anyone else to watch it requires at least one long speech explaining the twins and why “I swear it’s totally not weird” 😂
The thing with RPF that too many people don't understand is the concept of 'safari rules'. Look but do not interact. In other words, you can write this stuff, you can talk about it, you can even make fan art but *you do not involve the people in the ship*. I've written some RPF and I would frankly rather purge all of it from this earth than to have anyone involved read it and that is because it would feel like me invading their privacy in a weird way if they were aware of its existence. And yes, I know that this logic sounds dumb and weird and 'if you think its invading their privacy then why are you doing it at all?'. Which is fair. But there seems like a weird amount of freedom in RPF that you don't get elsewhere because there is no overarching plot, its just a character in an interesting circumstance. I've mostly written Hockey RPF and... idk, it's pretty fascinating with how much shit changes and develops even day to day. People get traded, people get hurt, people have terrible defeats and incredible wins legitimately daily during the season and it makes for a really fertile creative space. Add into weird hockey culture and the way that they've all been badly served by the systems around youth hockey culture and... idk. It's interesting. Also though, for how much I love a lot of the players, I would rather lose an arm than have them see what I've written, they've been through enough. Totally valid take on RPF not being somehow better than incest fics though and I 100% agree about the tinhats, the cringe that I feel even thinking about some of that stuff is SO real.
I dunno, I think it does vary a bit depending on who the person is (Like, I've weirdly less of a problem with someone writing RPF about US Presidents, couldnt say why) and what the fic is about. Something like the now iconic Trapped In A Island With Josh Hutcherson doesn't bother me, but Larry fics do.
@@DavidMChannel I feel like a lot of the discomfort happens when it's a situation where the people that are being written about are likely to find out about it. Minecraft UA-camr RPF makes me soooo uncomfy in a way that hockey rpf never does and its because the hockey players that I write about aren't going to look themselves up on tumblr or AO3 and people aren't super likely to go up to players and be like 'I write fanfic about you and your teammate'. It feels like there's a boundary there. Now, Minecraft UA-camrs? That boundary is non existent. They interact with fanfic writers and discuss what's been written about them and even feed into some of it because they think its funny and it all just makes me cringe. It can't be great for the youtubers and it also isn't healthy for their fans, who are already at a serious risk of becoming dangerously parasocial as the image that they have of that person in their head is so detailed, intimate and beloved enough that actual contact will add too much fuel to that fire. I think that's a part of why Larry stuff feels so cringy. You know that fans will tell these guys about this stuff. You know that they're going to find out. And you know that people are going to flip when these guys can never add up to be the people that they've made them out to be in their minds.
its funny you mention Minecraft UA-camrs because I immediately thought of the time I stumbled onto Dream SMP stories on AO3. I dunno, I still find it all a bit icky just because of how people talk about characters in fics in general. Im struggling to articulate why.
I think the line you're drawing here has half to do with expectations of privacy and half to do with content. EG: there's a certain amount of fame a person might opt into where content is produced about them, and we've just kind of accepted that (for better or for worse) as a society. An unauthorized biography of Obama is allowed so while weirder, an Obama/Putin book right next to it on the shelf would be logically equally acceptable. Otoh there's the question of content. Someone might ok the biography but not the romance and I think that ties into what we think is fair game for speculation. Which is totally fair! I think you could make a really logical argument that some content is always ok - eg RPF of long dead famous people, like Hamilton or Hamilton slash fic would be acceptable. Other types would never be acceptable, like a totally g-rated fic that involves minors who are also famous actors. Trapped In the Island might seemingly violate a "no romance" rule but then it's so ridiculous that it becomes comedy and comedy is allowed. Point being - it sounds like you have a complicated opinion because there are a lot of standards you are applying versus a blanket yes/no or pro/anti position and it feels weird because we expect the latter in online discourse but you know what ethical rules are actually really complicated and detailed and that's okay, looking at you Kant.
@@ani_anonymuncle I suppose the one time I was *tempted* to write RPF -It was for Alex Horne and Greg Davies on Taskmaster- I immediately decided "no, I'm not" the moment I found an interview where they acknowledged that they're aware of it. I already felt odd about it to begin with but that was the cincher. It felt a bit weird to me as I was thinking about it but knowing they were aware people did that- my own discomfort with it went up by quite a bit.
As someone who read most of the book “Ship It”, you are absolutely correct. I actually had to rage quit halfway through when the teenage love interest OUTS THE PROTAGONIST to her FAMILY because they “wouldn’t have a problem with it”. And how does our protagonist react to this horrific ordeal? She goes “well it sucked when you outed me without my consent, but because my parents are cool and you’re hot it’s toooootally fine. No consequences to these actions at all”. AUGH! I couldn’t believe a queer person wrote this. But then I found out the author wrote that episode on Riverdale, and I thought “ooooooooookay this is starting to make way more sense”.
Iirc, the Haiti supernatural RPF discourse's fallout was what taught Baby Writer Me that food descriptions for skin is Patently Not Okay. So at least there was some tumblr brand actually decent education done as fallout!
Ahhhh I've been waiting for this!! Thank you it's all so amazing!!! I loved this deep dive! Thank you. I'm in the Supernatural fandom, but I got into it late. About season 10 or 11? And I learnt a bunch of things from this video. One of my favourite/most memorable Supernatural fandom moments is that during the Super Hell moment with Casstiel, Dean originally says "Don't do this Cas" but in the Spanish sub Dean said "I love you" just before Cas gets yoinked. They may have corrected it now, but I saw a meme for it with the Duolingo bird saying "Spanish or vanish" and I've never forgotten it. Thanks so much for all of your hard work on these videos I always genuinely enjoy them!!
There are so many compliments you deserve on these videos, but I must confess that my favorite part of your performance is the immense psychic damage clearly welling up in your eyes before you sigh out every sentence of this insane yet accurate summary.
Coming to comment as a big fan of Supernatural (have the two stereotypical tattoos lol), but I ALSO am not trying to erase or undermines anyone else's experiences at cons or with the fandom online, as I did not experience the fandom online much. I am in my 30s, but I had a complicated childhood which made me pretty computer illiterate, and I was not allowed to watch most tv and movies or listen to the majority of music until I moved out. So my experience is going to be very different than most people. I am also bi, poly, and aro (and a cis woman, though my gender identity is a little wobbly, just haven't figured it out just yet). I want to give some background so that people know where I'm coming from when I make these comments, as I am sure that I have blind spots. I was raised in a christian cult and an abusive family. I am an oldest sister who had to protect her siblings from a lot of abuse, and that is still a situation that is going on, but not as intense, as I have moved out. But my siblings have remained close, and back slid, so protecting them became more difficult. For me, the show was healing, because I had a ton of religious trauma, and I really identified with dean. I discovered the show around 10 years ago or so, so I was catching up. To get an idea of where I was at, despite escaping the cult and and no longer believing in God, since I was a child I had night terrors of being possessed by demons, sometimes so bad I would have sleep paralysis so it felt like maybe I was. When I was around 29 I decided to get the antipossesion tattoo with my brother, who is also a fan, though it was in a symbolic way, not out of a belief it would work. My parents had threatened to kick me out of their lives if I got it, because it would "bring evil into their lives," which, who cares with them, but both of my siblings are caught up in that, so I had to keep it hidden. Just getting that tattoo was so healing that I haven't had a nightmare about demons since. So the show has done a lot for me. It doesn't mean I'm completely blind to it though. Onto things addressed in the video. Personally, I think that any J2 fanfic is vile. Not just because of the reasons mentioned, though. They are married and have children now. I know it wasn't the case when it started, but they did have their own lives. We talk about not sexualizing women, but we dismiss the sexualization of men way too easily. I think that when an actor plays a character, to a degree, it is completely fine to be head over heels for that character, and play around with that character. It is something that the actor has put on screen, it is essentially a piece of art put forward for us, the viewer. Art is to be interacted with and enjoyed. But the actor is not the character, and that line needs to be drawn. I am probably better at this because I am aro, I think? Since I have never had a crush on anyone. And I am pretry good at turning attraction on and off based on what is appropriate. You could put an actual goddess in front of me, but if she was in a vulnerable state like a changing room or if she needed help, that attraction shuts down. I think a lot of the fandom is wonderful. When Jared had mental health struggles, most of the fandom banded together to support him. They all support each other. They have raised a ton of money for charity through GISH, any merch that any actor from supernatural wanted to put out there had proceeds that went to a charity that they chose, and fans always showed up for every merch drop, even if it was a minor character, and other fundraisers were done. I wanted to get a plush that I wasn't able to afford, and another fan in a Facebook group sent it to me, basically for free. The year that I did GISH, which was during the lockdown (and all challenges were safe to do during covid), I had some issues come up with my health, so despite it being a competition, all of my teammates were extremely understanding. And we were all strangers. I went to a con, and while it was the worst con to go to (I watched an interview and Jared said he believes he was drugged but that isn't an excuse, he still takes full responsibility for drinking and taking a drink from a stranger) because it was days after Jared had been arrested for a fight, I was shocked at how it went. I am disabled, and not only did the staff go out of their way to find me and get me in the front of lines to make sure I wasn't standing (I never complained or told any staff, they just saw I had a cane), they also found chairs for me when there weren't any around, during the karaoke when the actors were singing in the crowd they made sure to come over to me because I couldn't see too much while sitting. I had stood towards the back, and the staff didn't pressure me to move to the front. Other con goers also checked in on me, and my brother was with me, so I wasn't alone. Everyone was just extremely kind. I also want to point out that while I have heard about many things happening at cons and needing security, the actors were able to walk wherever they needed to, through hallways lined with fans, and no one stopped them or bothered them (that I saw). HOWEVER, I have also heard stories told at cons by the actors (specifically Jensen) about how some fans treat them during photos. I am not sure when exactly that clip with the bisexual fan happened, but it was really sad. They do a lot, often, usually in jokes and innuendo and such, that made me really surprised by that reaction, though the crowd could have been part of it, because they tend to (sometimes clearly reluctantly, but as I mentioned, the sexualization of men is just ignored) ride the wave of what the crowd wants. Not even close to an excuse for what happened, though, because you shouldn't let a group of people bully one person, and then double down. But the reason I brought up the pics just before is some fans at cons have literally commented on "owning" them for the time that they have during the photo ops, one woman said that because she paid he was "her bitch," so he had to do the picture he was uncomfortable with, ect. So again, while not excusable, Jensen could have been coming from some shit situations in the photo ops that can often be pushed into something sexual between him and one of the guys, him and one of the fans, or both, multiple times, then asked that as the first question. Based on the rules I saw for the photos, I have a feeling that happened a lot... though he was very kind, and despite the rules against asking for physical contact, which I didn't ask for, I would never cross that boundary, he saw I was getting a little shaky and hugged me to help me stand up for the pics. Still really shitty of Jensen in that moment though, but to me he seems on edge compared to all of the other footage I've seen of him and when I've seen him in person. Later on, when they were more online (Misha and Jared were online, and they would put a camera on Jensen, he wasn't really a social media person), they did show support for the LGBTQIA+ community in different ways. Jensen, Jared, Misha, and other male actors on the cast did express their frustration with a few of the deaths that happened on the show when it came to the women. There were women who were "enemies," but as far as how the show worked, love interests weren't really feasible, and they killed everybody. Like, a lot. So even the more pivotal characters that were men didn't show up much unless it was a phone call. If they weren't a brother, you basically hoped they got a good death if they were human. With all of the traveling, angels and demons were the only ones that could keep up with the brothers episode to episode, pretty much. So a lot of it was format, part plot, the treatment of women within the show however, DEFINITELY was an issue. On the kiss mid-interview thing, there was a LOT of consensual homoeroticism that happened on set as pranks. I'm not sure how it started, but Jensen and Jared did live together at the beginning, and straight men are the gayest. So to try to ruin each others' takes they would grope and hurt each other a lot. And say inappropriate things, and make faces, and do shit like that. Basically act like kids. But according to every interview or even random mention of working on the set, everyone loved being there. When new shows started, they would point out the Supernatural cast as an example of how to be, despite the guys (Misha got added to the roster of harrassment) hurting each other, pranking each other a lot, ect. But they did make sure, from what I can tell, that everyone treated all of the crew properly. So no actor, visiting or otherwise, was allowed to just go be a dick to anyone just because they weren't also actors. So there's also that. They definitely had failings, the actors and the fanbase. But they also had a lot of strengths that weren't really prevalent in other shows. At least from what I have seen, and I have tattoos from more than just Supernatural lol.
Thank you for sharing your in-depth perspective, it's so refreshing to see in a time when I feel like many people love to flatten the discussion of Supernatural down to "queerbaiting" and "aren't those guys homophobic anyway lol". As someone who watched the show as it was airing and lurked on the edges of the fandom throughout those 15+ years I know there is so much more nuance to everything, and constantly seeing people's reductive takes makes me tired and annoyed.
@@ColorMeCrystal27 Thanks! I cut a lot out cuz I have a bad memory and I also didn't think anyone would read it all lol. But from what I understand, the actors did know for years that destiel was going to happen. They didn't know the very end until the last season, though, and I know Jensen struggled with the last episode so much he called up the original creator, and then on top of that, covid forced them to cut out a LOT, reducing how many people were in the finale, how the finale happened, ect. And stuff with trump and how adversarial it got with a lot of the LGBTQIA+ community not only made some fundraising happen, but words went out to some of the fans, and the three of them started to endorse candidates together. Misha is super involved in politics, Jensen is way more private, but when a lot of stuff started heating up and Misha started to speak out about that and other things like abortion and other stuff, there were videos where Jensen stepped up despite rarely getting on social media himself. Definitely not the most ideal ally, but he isn't homophobic, as far as I can tell. Though during the episode when Castiel said "I love you," I'm not sure what happened online, but suddenly a ton of people called Jensen homophobic. No clue why. Not sure if it was because they didn't get the happy ending they wanted, or if they thought his acting was wrong, or if he said something online and it wasn't to their taste, but he had to make a whole statement about not being homophobic AND other actors had to defend him because some fans were being psychotic. It really sucked because most of the fans are absolutely lovely. But it doesn't take many to create a cesspool of hatred.
@@darkermatter125.35 i believe they called jensen homophobic during the finale because he tweeted something about how he was disappointed with how it ended or smthing like that which people mistook for destiel then when the finale episode aired they were like "oops wait he was talking about this terrible finale not cas confessing his love-"
The show was "problematic" because it was a product of the media of its time, for all 15 seasons: sometimes homophobic, sometimes with offending stereotipical token representations of minorites, sometimes trying to do fan service so hard that it backfired real bad as most fans ended up hating what they did. But the show also had funny, silly situations which makes most viewers laugh, and complex endearing characters that never quit, which is still helping some fans go thru hard stuff. And the fandom can be wild or "extra" some times but it still, 4 years after the end of the show, active and growing and bringing joy to people. The quote from Becky Rosen "If you don’t like the books, don’t read them" is still valid and would save a lot of drama if put to action.
I love shipping and I have my problematic ships too but I still find it so wild that the early Supernatural fandom was *so desperate* for shipping that their solutions were either: 1. Incest 2. RPF As if creating OCs, doing the canon love interests justice, or just focusing on brotherly love weren't options 💀 (also before anyone comes after me or makes assumptions, I am anti-censorship and do simply avoid what I do not like, but that doesn't mean I can't question why the fandom was Like That when there were other options)
A lot of my early ships were incestuous because the content I was interested in had the strongest relationships between between two characters that were related. And I was very young and just saw the chemistry. 🤷🏻 I’m much older and more mature now and can appreciate relationship nuances in fiction. I was a lot more black and white thinking back then though. But I remember also feeling the same way about RPF, it weirded me out. And I still feel that way lol. LOL also omg I was at work on the election/canon destiel superhell/putin dead rumor day. I could NOT stop checking my phone 😭😭😂😂
I'm ready to take 1000 points of psychic damage because of a show ive watched... 8 seasons of. Listen, the first two seasons are actually decent horror and then i got Stockholm Syndromed. Also, i watched it in 2022, so its fine. Anyway, they dont work for the FBI usually, theyre usually wanted by them for magical murders reasons. But they do team up with them sometimes. Edit: Ok, i read that book before I ever heard of supernatural, but i was extremely uncomfortable with it. There were a bunch of chapters where the actors in the book got together, but it ended up being a fic every time. The "homophobic" actor kept finding it and asking the author to stop, and she wouldn't. This was years ago, so i don't remember that much except the extreme cringy/creepy vibes. I think you were supposed to sympthize with the author, but i was always kind of weirded out by her. I only finished it because there was literally nothing else to do. Edit: so, im really into Dead Boy Detectives, and theres a bunch of people from the spn fandom because its the much better version of it. Its really funny to see the shadows on platos cave of the remnants of the fandom.
I’m currently watching Supernatural on Netflix. Only up to Season 7. I think the show has already bounced back from one lull during which the characters spent most of the episodes talking instead of doing stuff, and there have been two meaningful deaths that appear to have been permanent departures from the show. I can’t imagine how it keeps going for 8 more seasons. Seems like the actors would get bored, but then again, I’ve worked for one company 22 years, so maybe it makes sense.
Ok this is beside the point, but the fic you briefly show at 3:45 - Draco Malfoy and the Mortifying Ordeal of Being In Love - is one of the best-written fics I've ever read! Highly recommended ❤
Somehow, I avoided most of supernatural despite being on tumblr from around 2015. November 2020 felt like an absolute fever dream. Fantastic video as always! 😊
The Ouran example is even funnier bc the brothers are NOT fking, they only PRETEND to be because they know the girls they entertain like that. And it is the LESS toxic and more constructive form of the way they used to troll girls as an outlet for their family trauma before joining the host club.
Listen, as much as we may clown on the show and the fandom (whether we watched it or not) and as much as it queerbaited its fans, I will forever envy Destiel shippers for being spoiled for choice when it comes to fanfiction. Like they can be as picky as they damn well please. If there's something they wanna read, there's a decent chance someone has already written it (or a dozen people have already written it). Truly the Scrooge McDuck of fandom pairings. Did the Destiel shippers really lose, or did they win long ago?
Hearing you read the summary of that J2 fic gave me war flashbacks to my time in the fandom, RIP. I could never understand the RPF craze, it just seems so... uncomfy to me. I was threatened at a convention bc I dared even suggest some people didn't like Misha Collins. Archangel Gabriel's actor was also incredibly drunk and rude to me and that convention put me off the show for good. Great video, David!
i'm sorry but the way the show itself is preventing dean from being queer no matter how much he yearns for it is some kind of metatextual miracle trick they pulled. like were the writers kinda awful with it? yeah. and yet still they created this repressed unwell performance of a man that makes me experience emotions that no one else could create within me. the way they buried him as one of the gays makes me feel a sort of anger and sorrow that no great work of art could. I LOVE BAD MEDIA!!!!! accidentally writing him like this and then sometimes on purpose writing him like that in some sort of writers room tug of war is more engaging than any of that "good rep" we could get. and it says so much about queerness. in its own homophobic and queer and incoherent way it is speaking to me. yes i do refer to the cw television show as "the text" why do you ask
Lmao the reveal that omegaverse fanfics come from supernatural is blowing my mind. I was in the fandom but never read that kind of stuff. Ive been following the RE fandom for my entire life, frustrated at the lack of fanfic writers the entire time. The latest entries introduced the series to a whole new generation and one of the games introduced wolf creatures into the lore... and now the most popular pairing of the newly booming fandom is omegaverse slash. Thanks supernatural 😂 now i know who to blame
ahh it's here!!! love you for this video fr (in a completely non parasocial way) having watched the whole show, unfortunately, i truly don't think I'll ever be free of it or the fandom, for the main reasons of the wasted potential of the show itself and the impact it has had on fandom culture which i am fascinated with regardless of how dogshit the show eventually became (i will defend the first 5 seasons with my life) i think we should give spn it's due respect for its service to fandom in both a positive and detrimental way depending on your perspective also the iceberg is just never ending with this show, the actors and fandom drama, the show ended 4 years ago and theres still drama... destiel went canon for the sixth time like 2 weeks ago insanity and probably my roman empire
@DavidMChannel you could probably do a whole video on the shit shows that are the convention panels that have happened post s15, this most recent happening was at a con where I believe jensen commented on destiel being "clear text" so people have lost their minds, again, and the meme currently being passed around is that his nda is over and the cw snipers have stood down so he can finally talk about it 💀
Do you have a discord/community somewhere? I love the conversations that happen on your community tab and would love to participate in a format more conducive to conversation
For a great story written from the perspective of a fan trying to prove that two male actors are dating, strongly recommend 'An Unauthorised Fan Treatise' by Lauren James. It starts off as a delusional fan crossing boundaries and slowly devolves into a murder mystery/thriller. Absolutely brilliant stuff and I want to study Gottie (the main character) under a microscope. It's available for free. (Won't link because idk if that'll get me marked as spam) Will warn for forced outing and Bury Your Gays (and perhaps a little too much "woe is the little straight girl"), but I do think it works in service of exploring fandom toxicity through the lens of this genre
i don't mind the fan fiction, cause it's fiction. u don't like it, don't read it. i have felt like i needed to bleach my eyes before, i really pay attention to tags now. did you superwholock without mentioning superwholock?!!! my popcorn wig was fabulous. J2 IS NOT THE SHIP NAME
what kinda annoys me about wincest isn't that the people shipping it were trying to explore a taboo romance - it was bc they just wanted a m/m ship and were so aggressive about any female character that would breathe in the brothers' direction... girlies would rather write incest than to see those brothers married to a woman
I’m not actually involved in the fandom, I just like reading wincest stuff(their writing makes me cry about characters I don’t even know.) I didn’t keep up from when the show was first airing, so idk what was going on back then. But from what I’ve seen they’re really interested in the relationship between the brothers, and in fact often use other characters to explore that. Ummmm idk if this’ll make sense or anything but here’s part of a tumblr post that might help you get some of what I’m trying to say “dean’s about to have a threesome? not until he gets a thumbs up from his sammy! sam’s making out with a woman? dean’s watching with a smile on his face. zero boundaries. just two brothers crammed into one car, then one motel room, who have an unceasing presence in the other’s life. just sam, who was ready to harvest organs if it meant keeping dean alive. they were never going to be normal.” I think if they just wanted a gay ship, then they would’ve all moved to Destiel. But I still see people talking about scenes that happened a decade ago. And people seem to like Jess. I think it’s also that the actors are both hot and keep on looking at eachother like they want to kiss. And the brothers can’t really get married cause that’s like the whole point, the hunting takes that away from them. But yeah I hope this doesn’t come off as abrasive or anything. I just want to share my two cents and maybe try to clear things up? I’m not saying you have to ship them though, I wouldn’t even say I ship them I just enjoy the fandom. I hope you’re doing good.
Ngl, I do love that you didn’t even watch the show for this video XD Like bro that show ran forEVER I don’t blame you at all, the fandom is far more interesting 😂
ok, your retelling of the musical episode is just insane, none of the plot you said is what actually happened. I love the rest of your analysis of the fandom is pretty spot on, but you cant judge a episodes you haven't even seen.
@@DavidMChannel Oh, thanks for your reply! :-) well, in that case I dont know if you can understand the episode without haven't watched the rest of the show. The girl who directed the musical didnt know that people got kidnapped because they didn't want the school musical to happen, and the greek goddess only really latched on the passion of the director girl for Supernatural, because that what's gave her power. And Chuck (or Spoiler *god*, the guy who wrote the Supernatural books in the show) had nothing to do with the musical at all. He basically was just there to reveal to the audience, that his character didn't die /disappear 5 seasons ago and would play a role later.
@@mimi1985d I have to be honest I found the episode rather boring so perhaps misremembered the details when I was tking notes, but the main points- what the episode was intended to mean on a metatextual level- Im fairly certain I got correct. I also completely forgot about Chuck lol
@@DavidMChannel yeah, it was one of their typical meta episodes and I have to be honest, their my favorites one because they A) yeah, they're kinda making fun of the fandom and lets be honest, some of us are kinda insane but they also B) also always put something in it, to acknowledge their fans and their love of the show
I love finding out what fic is THE FIC of the year, where if you havent read it, what are you doing?? At the peak of my days in the fandom it was Twist and Shout (Twist & Shout?). Every new one is suddenly THE seminal work in the SPN fandom 😂
Never have watched Supernatural, but I totally knew what Destiel was since...forever? It didn't / doesn't look like a good show to me, and I thought the three main white dudes all looked the same to me so I didn't know who was who really. This was a fun video, thanks for deep diving down into this show. I won't watch the show but it is fun to learn about its fan lore. Also that poor girl at the panel, like it didn't have to go that way. I always forget how bonkers this fandom got.
I will say I am glad that immediately after you can hear people booing you can hear just as many people cheering in response to the question, so at least she wasn't entirely alone. But ugh, its awful. I really think there was a better way to handle that kind of question
I just realized, Castiel looks like Ace Attorney Gumshoe’s less cool brother. Also I made a sim caller Destiel Iscannon in the sims 4. He’s a mountain climber.
I love Jensen but even i can still admit the way he handled the "Destiel" questions in the past was horrible. Thankfully he has evolved so much and has no problem answering them now, he's also great with Destiel photo op's and autos as well. But it was certainly rough back then lol!
Ngl as someone who has watched the entire show and has rewatched at least the first like 7-8 seasons a bunch of times (not for several years tho and i barely remember the last like 5 seasons bc they sucked) i never picked up on queerbaiting (im also not known for being able to pick up on queer subtext, but like im just that kind of gay lol). i picked up on straight people making gay jokes. like, you know how you said some people read into the jokes the actors made and used those to make an argument that the actors were gay? that's kind of what i got from the show itself. like there were a lot of situations in the show that were "gay" but to me they always seemed more like "haha look two straight dudes in an uncomfortable (gay) situation." "isnt it funny bc they're straight and its awkward for them?" like tv shows and films in the early 2000s were riddled with that kind of humour. and thats all i remember from the show that would hint towards gay subtext, at least in the early seasons, so i never interpreted that as queerbaiting bc really it was just straight dudes being mildly homophobic. so whenever people start talking about the queerbaiting i always wonder if im crazy and didnt see it or if they just wanted a queer ship so bad (understandably) that they've convinced themselves it was secretly there? like... i genuinely dont see it. EDIT: it makes me want to go back and rewatch the show ngl, but who even has the time?😂
to be perfectly frank after watching a few Destiel supercuts that was my impression as well, but like, I've not seen the entire show, so I was willing to go off of what others said. Like, its *possible* that some writers leaned into it more, as a bystander I can't really say.
@@DavidMChannel i wouldnt be surprised if in later seasons writers leaned into it seeing as the whole show was very conscious of the fandom. like im pretty sure cas only said he loved dean right before he died bc the writers were leaning into it, but for the majority of the show i really didnt see what people were talking about. i think if queerbaiting did happen it most likely occurred after the writers saw how much the fans shipped destiel.
Well there was definitely some queerbaiting at first with Dean and Cas, but I think that with Castiel’s confession in the last scene it’s pretty clear that they went with one sided love trope or that Dean’s reaction is left open for interpretation.
honestly sometimes i was just watching the show and being like "how is this is any way straight?? how do you want me to believe that these two AREN'T together!???" but that was mostly in the later seasons
I hear you and agree with what you're saying mostly I think I'd be more interested if you had watched more than a couple episodes. In fact I think I read the same j2 conspiracy timeline writing you did which is why I'm genuinely asking.. what is the heterosexual explaination for not bringing your wife and kids for 9+ months at a time to go film in another country? And it's not even across the world it's literally Canada. Please I am completely genuine and happened to see this pop up looking for Coley supernatural fandom stuff that apparently does not exist.
I knew omegaverse came from Supernatural fandom. But I didn't know it came from Supernatural RPF of all things. Or that the term tinhatting was originally about that specific RPF conspiracy theory. Wow. 😂 It really is insane how Wincest was EVERYWHERE in the fandom (to the point where I had to blacklist it because I was sick of it) and I didn't see too much of a backlash about it back then. And my thoughts amounted to, "Whatever. I have to blacklist uninteresting things all the time." Fast forward to 2024. There really are groups who will try to mass-harass you if you don't Condemn Wincest In The Strongest Possible Terms, because WHAT IF an impressionable child read your fic and decided assaulting their siblings was okay in real life (never mind the question why was a child reading your adult-topics fic)... but also in 2024 people will still try to insist shipping REAL LIFE PEOPLE is somehow okay. I don't care if you don't personally know them (and you're writing OCs based on your impression of a stranger) or if you do personally know them (bruh.....), that is creepy as hell. I'm very much a person who thinks, "it's words, in a story, for adults, about fictional people, so if it has content warnings and you have a back button, we can go our separate ways" generally. But when it comes to real actual people, that is disrespectful as hell. That does actually hurt real people. And like you said, it's tantamount to trying to out them. Signed, a person who "got shipped" with their best friend despite us never dating, will never be dating, and we don't talk to that person who said that to us anymore. Don't do that, man.
I was a supernatural fan my use name is Bodge. I was a Sam fan. I live in Delaware. Becky was a Sam girl who we are introduced to about a mile from my house. Still not sure how to take that one? (I mostly write meta) The body possessed by Lucifer lived about 2 miles in the other direction? 😂
im a long time fan of Supernatural and watched the 200th episode live. I hate it. as a teenager at the time it felt extremely condescending. it was better than becky sure but i would've rather they just never included fans in the narrative again
I have to comment on a few things as someone who is a huge fan of this show and feels like everyone seems to be shi**** on it in the comments. I always find it so funny how people who stopped watching the show always seem to have the most "issues" with the show and the fandom. If you didn't like it, that's perfectly fine, but I find it kind of sus that they can't stop whining and spitting vitriol about the fans, actors, and show when they didn't even finish watching it. Now, while I'll fully admit that our fandom (we call a family) can be as dysfunctional as any family can be, most of the time we generally care about one another and the actors and crew. I'm not personally a Destiel shipper, but I do see how the show's creators played into that. That being said, art is subjective, whether it is a painting, film, television show, book...whatever medium it is...some fans can be very toxic when it comes to their ships. Similar to how religious fanatics push their religion on others, shippers tend to be ferociously adamant that their ship should be cannon and anyone else's interpretation is wrong and furthermore they are somehow "anti" whatever their ship represents, when that is simply not true. I've already ranted way to long, and I'm sure some people are going to get their hackles up about me defending the show and the actors, but I have to say one more thing. Jensen is not homophobic! Stop putting that on him because he doesn't ship your ship! He is entitled to his opinion and feelings as he is a human being just like everyone else. In fact, after meeting him several times throughout the years he has been nothing but kind and humble. One bad thing I will say about some people in our fandom is that they seem to think that just because they attend every supernatural convention and sit in the very pricey front row that the actors are really truly their BFFs. You don't know them, and they don't know you, so stop projecting your own insecurities on them and the rest of the fandom and just enjoy the show, or not...its up to you.
I also feel like, that in 2010 the actors got kind of scolded by the network and were to told to downplay "Destiel" and there was a lot of fanwars online and on other cons before between pro and anti destiel shippers and thats why the room and Jensen reacted that way to this question
I mean from someone who watched the show occasionally, and whose parents watched it religiously the queer baiting wasn’t really that overt. It was a lot of hopeful young queer people hoping for representation in a very popular very beloved mainstream show.
I'm admitedly taking other peoples word for it when i say they 'definitley queerbaited'. In the few fanedits I watched of there moments together I didn't get much of a vibe but I chalked that up to me missing context and my gaydar being kinda bad when it comes to intentional subtext (me reading x-men thinking its totally normal for kitty pryde and rachel summers to share a bed because there such close friends is a real thing which has happened). The show was at least aware of it to a degree, and with the writers room presumably being shuffled around a lot over the years it probably varied a lot.
Okay, yes, SPN and destiel fan here, but i do get annoyed by the repeated by everyone idea that Cas admitted his love and was immediately sent to super mega hell. While there are legitimate criticisms to be made, this statement really mischaracterizes what happened for non fans. Cas did NOT go to hell, super or otherwise. He went to the Empty, which is the afterlife for ALL angels and demons (they're already in heaven and hell so if they "die" they have to go somewhere else). Non regular viewers will hear "hell" and assume a moral judgement. There is none, he was an angel and died as such. The "super hell" statement comes from the character in charge of the empty taunting a dying angel it was very very very angry with. It says that the Empty is worse than Hell because Hell is something and the empty is nothing. But the show had been to both places. Hell is a realm where you'll be tortured endlessly until you can't remember you were even human. The Empty is a place where you sleep eternally and dream about your life. Thats it. Which would you pick? It really muddies the waters when people try to analyze that scene and discuss bury your gays, etc, and keep referencing "super hell". He went to standard Angel afterlife. For more info for those actually reading this far that might care: the context for the scene, Cas had made a deal a season earlier to trade his life for another. The empty was pissed at him so it said that it wouldn't take him until he was truly happy. He thought he was safe cause he thought he couldn't be truly happy without being with Dean and he didn't feel Dean would reciprocate his feelings. In this moment he realizes he needs to summon the Empty to save Dean, but therefore has to feel true happiness. He realizes he didn't need to be with Dean to feel happy, just telling him his feelings and accepting them himself, and then knowing that he was saving Deans life made him happy enough to bring the empty. It was a deliberate act of sacrificing yourself for someone you love, which gets lost in the whole thrown into super hell meme. Not saying it is or isn't Bury your gays, not my place, but that those discussing it are often lacking context.
in the most honoring and appreciative way possible, i cant believe you just said theres no issue with incest fics of fictional characters and put your face on it. the only fandom space i really interact with is tf2, and you'd genuinely become a bit of a social piranha if you ever produce or consume anything scout/spy openly. like they are literally not real
Which is funny to me, because IIRC Spy being Scout's dad is just fanon and was never officially confirmed (unless something has really changed a lot since I last interacted with TF2 lol)
@@Kintsugi23 it was confirmed in one of the comics where scout is about to die and spy tells him he’s his dad while disguised as tom jones. so canonically he thinks tom jones is his dad. i love this game
You lost me already at 1:58. You clearly only found the fans who stopped liking it after Season 5. Every season is better than the last. Those who don't like 6 and up just aren't bright enough to understsnd them. It gets deep.
every season isn't better than the last tho. im saying this as a person who enjoys all the seasons btw. also dont insult people who you a. don't know and b. are insulting because they just dont like the last 9 seasons of a cw show.
Wait Cain and his wife were very clearly Dean and Sam parallels… this is shippers rewriting canon. They love to say Sam “was just there” as if he’s not a lead character.
A few corrections:
-The brothers do not work for the FBI. I got this mistaken impression as they use fake IDs claiming they are agents in the 200th episode.
-When I state 'Dean' had next to no love interests I completely misspoke. The Tumblr post in question was talking about Castiel. A correction appears on screen during this section but it seems some missed it.
-Minor thing but when the convention footage plays at around 19:15, the sound will only play through one side of your headset, so if youre listening with just one earphone, be mindful of that.
-'J2' was not just the name of the RPF ship but a name referring to the two actors in general. Fanlore's page on 'J2' exclusively mentions the RPF hence my confusion. The site is usually a lot better about this sort of thing so I took them at their word.
-“Tinhatting” does not originate as a term from within the fandom, though it was rather prevalent in it regardless.
-A lot of discourse around whether or not the show queerbaited in the comments....I've not seen it so when I claim that it definitley was queerbaiting, I am simply parroting the opinions I see commonly held within the fandom. The show is 15 seasons long and this is specifically about *the fandom*, not the plotlines on the show itself
Misha Collins the only guy i know to accidentally come out as bisexual and then have to come out as straight to backtrack.
When Hank Green accidentally re-came-out a little while ago, I had a friend who was fully convinced it was a Misha situation 😂
I heard it was bc he forgot the word ambivert
He didn't come out as bisexual.
@helenwood8482 yeah he did. Google the video.
No, he really didn't. He hurriedly misspoke in answer to a question and it was taken as him coming out, but that was never what it was. This was blown up by Jai (toxic fan) and it took off. So because of people's reaction, he had to speak out and confirm that he is in fact straight.
He has stated before that he's straight. And unless he officially says otherwise? It's nobody's business.
Hi, just wanna jump in here real quick and say that while I am sure people use “J2” in Fanfics and other romantic context, it is not their shipname! The majority of us use the term J2 simply when we refer to the both of them, in a non-romantic way. :)
Even the crew and other cast mates call them J2 - that’s why they used it on the show, in that one clip you showed.
Ah my mistake, thank you! I was a bit unclear on this but I predominantly found reference to the term in relation to RPF but I must've gotten the wrong impression, thank you!
My favourite episode is racist ghost truck bc I like telling people about racist ghost truck
please enlighten us all about Racist Ghost Truck episode, I have questions. For some reason Im imagining that it lives in an abandonned drive-in movie theater and watches Gone With The Wind every night
@@DavidMChannel 😣unfortunately not, it’s a ghost truck avenging the life of its racist driver who killed black people by killing the people who killed him
oh my god i completely forgot about Racist Ghost Truck 😭😭
@@DavidMChannel basically there was a racist guy with a truck and then he and this guy got into a fight and the guy ended up killing him and then the racist guy with a truck became a ghost and haunted the people who covered up his death by killing them with his truck. oh and dean was revealed to apparently have an ex-girlfriend named cassie who seemed lovely
Dean can't help to fall in love with people named Cas
I’ve heard the show runners retooled some storylines with Dean and a female angel (intended to be his love interest) to involve Castiel instead because of how quickly he became a fan favorite
Yep, they completely cut out the end game character for Dean and gave all her scenes and moments to Castiel. Can't even have one damn woman in the series I swear
Probably Anna?! 🤷🏻♀️
to be fair, people saying misha was bisexual was nobody’s fault but misha’s cause he literally said he was bisexual. on stage (i still don’t understand why anyone would do that and NOT expect the consequences). which is so fucking funny, the only actor to have to come out as straight
oh yeah, he misspoke, and did post a twitter thread apologizing and explaining himself, but its still *really* funny
As far as I know recording wasn't allowed there (but I can be wrong). He said it really quiet, the audience didn't react at all. I don't think it was intentional and than he had to cover that up with saying he's straight. Misha implied he is bi before, so maybe he didn't think fans would react differently this time
god ive only just now realized that i forgot to tell you about the supernatural convention episode
The episode with the gay couple cosplayers? Iconic
The one set in Newport Delaware (I could throw a rock to Newport Delaware}
Just the fact that the show could support an annual standalone convention for like a decade or something says a lot.
I genuinely find it very funny how little of supernatural you watched to make this video and how little that probably mattered to the content of this video, lol. I've watched the show up thru to the first few episodes of the 10th season and had to quit from the fatigue of it all, and I actually enjoyed the show. It's definitely too much to watch for one youtube vid if you don't have much interest in it. I'm glad you didn't torture yourself.
Same. I quit at the last season because it wasn’t the same. Idk.
@@13fyrefliJust barely made it out, congrats
I grew up in the supernatural fandom (still partake on occasion) so i watch and judge every video that claims to be a fandom deep dive. You are the first reviewer I've seen that was able to really capture the madness of spn fandom and even mention some stuff that i missed out on before i was in the fandom. Great work, you have my respect as an internet historian/journalist
“And that one thing is: fucking deranged” lmaoooooo
honestly being on tumblr the night the superhell episode aired is one of my favourite memories of being online. this, the mishapocalypse, and misha accidentally coming out as bi, can only be rivaled by goncharov. that's how big of an impact the fandom had on tumblr as a whole.
David’s back-and back with SUPERNATURAL?? Let’s fucking go.
Also shoutout to the Terry Pratchett on your bookshelf!!
4:21 LOVE the Ouran High School Host Club representation. It’s my favorite of all time and getting anyone else to watch it requires at least one long speech explaining the twins and why “I swear it’s totally not weird” 😂
It's a cute series but I swear when I recommend it I have to give fifty disclaimers, like I know Tamaki is slightly transphobic I'm sorry
i've watched so many of your fandom videos and i'm a huge fan. such underrated :D
The thing with RPF that too many people don't understand is the concept of 'safari rules'. Look but do not interact. In other words, you can write this stuff, you can talk about it, you can even make fan art but *you do not involve the people in the ship*. I've written some RPF and I would frankly rather purge all of it from this earth than to have anyone involved read it and that is because it would feel like me invading their privacy in a weird way if they were aware of its existence.
And yes, I know that this logic sounds dumb and weird and 'if you think its invading their privacy then why are you doing it at all?'. Which is fair. But there seems like a weird amount of freedom in RPF that you don't get elsewhere because there is no overarching plot, its just a character in an interesting circumstance. I've mostly written Hockey RPF and... idk, it's pretty fascinating with how much shit changes and develops even day to day. People get traded, people get hurt, people have terrible defeats and incredible wins legitimately daily during the season and it makes for a really fertile creative space. Add into weird hockey culture and the way that they've all been badly served by the systems around youth hockey culture and... idk. It's interesting. Also though, for how much I love a lot of the players, I would rather lose an arm than have them see what I've written, they've been through enough.
Totally valid take on RPF not being somehow better than incest fics though and I 100% agree about the tinhats, the cringe that I feel even thinking about some of that stuff is SO real.
I dunno, I think it does vary a bit depending on who the person is (Like, I've weirdly less of a problem with someone writing RPF about US Presidents, couldnt say why) and what the fic is about. Something like the now iconic Trapped In A Island With Josh Hutcherson doesn't bother me, but Larry fics do.
@@DavidMChannel I feel like a lot of the discomfort happens when it's a situation where the people that are being written about are likely to find out about it. Minecraft UA-camr RPF makes me soooo uncomfy in a way that hockey rpf never does and its because the hockey players that I write about aren't going to look themselves up on tumblr or AO3 and people aren't super likely to go up to players and be like 'I write fanfic about you and your teammate'. It feels like there's a boundary there.
Now, Minecraft UA-camrs? That boundary is non existent. They interact with fanfic writers and discuss what's been written about them and even feed into some of it because they think its funny and it all just makes me cringe. It can't be great for the youtubers and it also isn't healthy for their fans, who are already at a serious risk of becoming dangerously parasocial as the image that they have of that person in their head is so detailed, intimate and beloved enough that actual contact will add too much fuel to that fire.
I think that's a part of why Larry stuff feels so cringy. You know that fans will tell these guys about this stuff. You know that they're going to find out. And you know that people are going to flip when these guys can never add up to be the people that they've made them out to be in their minds.
its funny you mention Minecraft UA-camrs because I immediately thought of the time I stumbled onto Dream SMP stories on AO3. I dunno, I still find it all a bit icky just because of how people talk about characters in fics in general. Im struggling to articulate why.
I think the line you're drawing here has half to do with expectations of privacy and half to do with content. EG: there's a certain amount of fame a person might opt into where content is produced about them, and we've just kind of accepted that (for better or for worse) as a society. An unauthorized biography of Obama is allowed so while weirder, an Obama/Putin book right next to it on the shelf would be logically equally acceptable. Otoh there's the question of content. Someone might ok the biography but not the romance and I think that ties into what we think is fair game for speculation. Which is totally fair! I think you could make a really logical argument that some content is always ok - eg RPF of long dead famous people, like Hamilton or Hamilton slash fic would be acceptable. Other types would never be acceptable, like a totally g-rated fic that involves minors who are also famous actors. Trapped In the Island might seemingly violate a "no romance" rule but then it's so ridiculous that it becomes comedy and comedy is allowed. Point being - it sounds like you have a complicated opinion because there are a lot of standards you are applying versus a blanket yes/no or pro/anti position and it feels weird because we expect the latter in online discourse but you know what ethical rules are actually really complicated and detailed and that's okay, looking at you Kant.
@@ani_anonymuncle I suppose the one time I was *tempted* to write RPF -It was for Alex Horne and Greg Davies on Taskmaster- I immediately decided "no, I'm not" the moment I found an interview where they acknowledged that they're aware of it. I already felt odd about it to begin with but that was the cincher. It felt a bit weird to me as I was thinking about it but knowing they were aware people did that- my own discomfort with it went up by quite a bit.
As someone who read most of the book “Ship It”, you are absolutely correct. I actually had to rage quit halfway through when the teenage love interest OUTS THE PROTAGONIST to her FAMILY because they “wouldn’t have a problem with it”. And how does our protagonist react to this horrific ordeal? She goes “well it sucked when you outed me without my consent, but because my parents are cool and you’re hot it’s toooootally fine. No consequences to these actions at all”. AUGH! I couldn’t believe a queer person wrote this. But then I found out the author wrote that episode on Riverdale, and I thought “ooooooooookay this is starting to make way more sense”.
oh my GOD. I knew it sounded bad but thats just *awful* for so many reasons. What the hell???
Iirc, the Haiti supernatural RPF discourse's fallout was what taught Baby Writer Me that food descriptions for skin is Patently Not Okay. So at least there was some tumblr brand actually decent education done as fallout!
i found ur channel like a day ago, i really enjoy what u do here!!!!
Welcome aboard! Thank you, hope you enjoy!
Ahhhh I've been waiting for this!! Thank you it's all so amazing!!! I loved this deep dive! Thank you. I'm in the Supernatural fandom, but I got into it late. About season 10 or 11? And I learnt a bunch of things from this video.
One of my favourite/most memorable Supernatural fandom moments is that during the Super Hell moment with Casstiel, Dean originally says "Don't do this Cas" but in the Spanish sub Dean said "I love you" just before Cas gets yoinked. They may have corrected it now, but I saw a meme for it with the Duolingo bird saying "Spanish or vanish" and I've never forgotten it.
Thanks so much for all of your hard work on these videos I always genuinely enjoy them!!
"if you watch this kind of content you probably remember this" and I will never get tired of hearing it recounted 🚨🚨‼‼🗣🗣
also zooming in on your vampire lestat book. everywhere I go I see his face.
hes my problematic literary boyfriend, dont @ me
There are so many compliments you deserve on these videos, but I must confess that my favorite part of your performance is the immense psychic damage clearly welling up in your eyes before you sigh out every sentence of this insane yet accurate summary.
Coming to comment as a big fan of Supernatural (have the two stereotypical tattoos lol), but I ALSO am not trying to erase or undermines anyone else's experiences at cons or with the fandom online, as I did not experience the fandom online much. I am in my 30s, but I had a complicated childhood which made me pretty computer illiterate, and I was not allowed to watch most tv and movies or listen to the majority of music until I moved out. So my experience is going to be very different than most people. I am also bi, poly, and aro (and a cis woman, though my gender identity is a little wobbly, just haven't figured it out just yet). I want to give some background so that people know where I'm coming from when I make these comments, as I am sure that I have blind spots.
I was raised in a christian cult and an abusive family. I am an oldest sister who had to protect her siblings from a lot of abuse, and that is still a situation that is going on, but not as intense, as I have moved out. But my siblings have remained close, and back slid, so protecting them became more difficult.
For me, the show was healing, because I had a ton of religious trauma, and I really identified with dean. I discovered the show around 10 years ago or so, so I was catching up. To get an idea of where I was at, despite escaping the cult and and no longer believing in God, since I was a child I had night terrors of being possessed by demons, sometimes so bad I would have sleep paralysis so it felt like maybe I was. When I was around 29 I decided to get the antipossesion tattoo with my brother, who is also a fan, though it was in a symbolic way, not out of a belief it would work. My parents had threatened to kick me out of their lives if I got it, because it would "bring evil into their lives," which, who cares with them, but both of my siblings are caught up in that, so I had to keep it hidden. Just getting that tattoo was so healing that I haven't had a nightmare about demons since. So the show has done a lot for me. It doesn't mean I'm completely blind to it though.
Onto things addressed in the video. Personally, I think that any J2 fanfic is vile. Not just because of the reasons mentioned, though. They are married and have children now. I know it wasn't the case when it started, but they did have their own lives. We talk about not sexualizing women, but we dismiss the sexualization of men way too easily. I think that when an actor plays a character, to a degree, it is completely fine to be head over heels for that character, and play around with that character. It is something that the actor has put on screen, it is essentially a piece of art put forward for us, the viewer. Art is to be interacted with and enjoyed. But the actor is not the character, and that line needs to be drawn. I am probably better at this because I am aro, I think? Since I have never had a crush on anyone. And I am pretry good at turning attraction on and off based on what is appropriate. You could put an actual goddess in front of me, but if she was in a vulnerable state like a changing room or if she needed help, that attraction shuts down.
I think a lot of the fandom is wonderful. When Jared had mental health struggles, most of the fandom banded together to support him. They all support each other. They have raised a ton of money for charity through GISH, any merch that any actor from supernatural wanted to put out there had proceeds that went to a charity that they chose, and fans always showed up for every merch drop, even if it was a minor character, and other fundraisers were done. I wanted to get a plush that I wasn't able to afford, and another fan in a Facebook group sent it to me, basically for free. The year that I did GISH, which was during the lockdown (and all challenges were safe to do during covid), I had some issues come up with my health, so despite it being a competition, all of my teammates were extremely understanding. And we were all strangers.
I went to a con, and while it was the worst con to go to (I watched an interview and Jared said he believes he was drugged but that isn't an excuse, he still takes full responsibility for drinking and taking a drink from a stranger) because it was days after Jared had been arrested for a fight, I was shocked at how it went. I am disabled, and not only did the staff go out of their way to find me and get me in the front of lines to make sure I wasn't standing (I never complained or told any staff, they just saw I had a cane), they also found chairs for me when there weren't any around, during the karaoke when the actors were singing in the crowd they made sure to come over to me because I couldn't see too much while sitting. I had stood towards the back, and the staff didn't pressure me to move to the front. Other con goers also checked in on me, and my brother was with me, so I wasn't alone. Everyone was just extremely kind. I also want to point out that while I have heard about many things happening at cons and needing security, the actors were able to walk wherever they needed to, through hallways lined with fans, and no one stopped them or bothered them (that I saw).
HOWEVER, I have also heard stories told at cons by the actors (specifically Jensen) about how some fans treat them during photos. I am not sure when exactly that clip with the bisexual fan happened, but it was really sad. They do a lot, often, usually in jokes and innuendo and such, that made me really surprised by that reaction, though the crowd could have been part of it, because they tend to (sometimes clearly reluctantly, but as I mentioned, the sexualization of men is just ignored) ride the wave of what the crowd wants. Not even close to an excuse for what happened, though, because you shouldn't let a group of people bully one person, and then double down. But the reason I brought up the pics just before is some fans at cons have literally commented on "owning" them for the time that they have during the photo ops, one woman said that because she paid he was "her bitch," so he had to do the picture he was uncomfortable with, ect. So again, while not excusable, Jensen could have been coming from some shit situations in the photo ops that can often be pushed into something sexual between him and one of the guys, him and one of the fans, or both, multiple times, then asked that as the first question. Based on the rules I saw for the photos, I have a feeling that happened a lot... though he was very kind, and despite the rules against asking for physical contact, which I didn't ask for, I would never cross that boundary, he saw I was getting a little shaky and hugged me to help me stand up for the pics. Still really shitty of Jensen in that moment though, but to me he seems on edge compared to all of the other footage I've seen of him and when I've seen him in person.
Later on, when they were more online (Misha and Jared were online, and they would put a camera on Jensen, he wasn't really a social media person), they did show support for the LGBTQIA+ community in different ways.
Jensen, Jared, Misha, and other male actors on the cast did express their frustration with a few of the deaths that happened on the show when it came to the women. There were women who were "enemies," but as far as how the show worked, love interests weren't really feasible, and they killed everybody. Like, a lot. So even the more pivotal characters that were men didn't show up much unless it was a phone call. If they weren't a brother, you basically hoped they got a good death if they were human. With all of the traveling, angels and demons were the only ones that could keep up with the brothers episode to episode, pretty much. So a lot of it was format, part plot, the treatment of women within the show however, DEFINITELY was an issue.
On the kiss mid-interview thing, there was a LOT of consensual homoeroticism that happened on set as pranks. I'm not sure how it started, but Jensen and Jared did live together at the beginning, and straight men are the gayest. So to try to ruin each others' takes they would grope and hurt each other a lot. And say inappropriate things, and make faces, and do shit like that. Basically act like kids. But according to every interview or even random mention of working on the set, everyone loved being there. When new shows started, they would point out the Supernatural cast as an example of how to be, despite the guys (Misha got added to the roster of harrassment) hurting each other, pranking each other a lot, ect. But they did make sure, from what I can tell, that everyone treated all of the crew properly. So no actor, visiting or otherwise, was allowed to just go be a dick to anyone just because they weren't also actors. So there's also that.
They definitely had failings, the actors and the fanbase. But they also had a lot of strengths that weren't really prevalent in other shows. At least from what I have seen, and I have tattoos from more than just Supernatural lol.
Thank you for sharing your in-depth perspective, it's so refreshing to see in a time when I feel like many people love to flatten the discussion of Supernatural down to "queerbaiting" and "aren't those guys homophobic anyway lol". As someone who watched the show as it was airing and lurked on the edges of the fandom throughout those 15+ years I know there is so much more nuance to everything, and constantly seeing people's reductive takes makes me tired and annoyed.
@@ColorMeCrystal27 Thanks! I cut a lot out cuz I have a bad memory and I also didn't think anyone would read it all lol. But from what I understand, the actors did know for years that destiel was going to happen. They didn't know the very end until the last season, though, and I know Jensen struggled with the last episode so much he called up the original creator, and then on top of that, covid forced them to cut out a LOT, reducing how many people were in the finale, how the finale happened, ect. And stuff with trump and how adversarial it got with a lot of the LGBTQIA+ community not only made some fundraising happen, but words went out to some of the fans, and the three of them started to endorse candidates together. Misha is super involved in politics, Jensen is way more private, but when a lot of stuff started heating up and Misha started to speak out about that and other things like abortion and other stuff, there were videos where Jensen stepped up despite rarely getting on social media himself.
Definitely not the most ideal ally, but he isn't homophobic, as far as I can tell. Though during the episode when Castiel said "I love you," I'm not sure what happened online, but suddenly a ton of people called Jensen homophobic. No clue why. Not sure if it was because they didn't get the happy ending they wanted, or if they thought his acting was wrong, or if he said something online and it wasn't to their taste, but he had to make a whole statement about not being homophobic AND other actors had to defend him because some fans were being psychotic. It really sucked because most of the fans are absolutely lovely. But it doesn't take many to create a cesspool of hatred.
@@darkermatter125.35 i believe they called jensen homophobic during the finale because he tweeted something about how he was disappointed with how it ended or smthing like that which people mistook for destiel then when the finale episode aired they were like "oops wait he was talking about this terrible finale not cas confessing his love-"
The show was "problematic" because it was a product of the media of its time, for all 15 seasons: sometimes homophobic, sometimes with offending stereotipical token representations of minorites, sometimes trying to do fan service so hard that it backfired real bad as most fans ended up hating what they did.
But the show also had funny, silly situations which makes most viewers laugh, and complex endearing characters that never quit, which is still helping some fans go thru hard stuff.
And the fandom can be wild or "extra" some times but it still, 4 years after the end of the show, active and growing and bringing joy to people.
The quote from Becky Rosen "If you don’t like the books, don’t read them" is still valid and would save a lot of drama if put to action.
this show was my entire personality from 2016-2018 so i’m excited/dreading this
I love shipping and I have my problematic ships too but I still find it so wild that the early Supernatural fandom was *so desperate* for shipping that their solutions were either:
1. Incest
2. RPF
As if creating OCs, doing the canon love interests justice, or just focusing on brotherly love weren't options 💀
(also before anyone comes after me or makes assumptions, I am anti-censorship and do simply avoid what I do not like, but that doesn't mean I can't question why the fandom was Like That when there were other options)
A lot of my early ships were incestuous because the content I was interested in had the strongest relationships between between two characters that were related. And I was very young and just saw the chemistry. 🤷🏻 I’m much older and more mature now and can appreciate relationship nuances in fiction. I was a lot more black and white thinking back then though.
But I remember also feeling the same way about RPF, it weirded me out. And I still feel that way lol.
LOL also omg I was at work on the election/canon destiel superhell/putin dead rumor day. I could NOT stop checking my phone 😭😭😂😂
I'm ready to take 1000 points of psychic damage because of a show ive watched... 8 seasons of. Listen, the first two seasons are actually decent horror and then i got Stockholm Syndromed. Also, i watched it in 2022, so its fine.
Anyway, they dont work for the FBI usually, theyre usually wanted by them for magical murders reasons. But they do team up with them sometimes.
Edit: Ok, i read that book before I ever heard of supernatural, but i was extremely uncomfortable with it. There were a bunch of chapters where the actors in the book got together, but it ended up being a fic every time. The "homophobic" actor kept finding it and asking the author to stop, and she wouldn't. This was years ago, so i don't remember that much except the extreme cringy/creepy vibes. I think you were supposed to sympthize with the author, but i was always kind of weirded out by her. I only finished it because there was literally nothing else to do.
Edit: so, im really into Dead Boy Detectives, and theres a bunch of people from the spn fandom because its the much better version of it. Its really funny to see the shadows on platos cave of the remnants of the fandom.
david i love your content please don't die
don't worry, I won't! I just also won't watch 15 seasons of a monster show xD
I’m currently watching Supernatural on Netflix. Only up to Season 7. I think the show has already bounced back from one lull during which the characters spent most of the episodes talking instead of doing stuff, and there have been two meaningful deaths that appear to have been permanent departures from the show. I can’t imagine how it keeps going for 8 more seasons. Seems like the actors would get bored, but then again, I’ve worked for one company 22 years, so maybe it makes sense.
Ok this is beside the point, but the fic you briefly show at 3:45 - Draco Malfoy and the Mortifying Ordeal of Being In Love - is one of the best-written fics I've ever read! Highly recommended ❤
Somehow, I avoided most of supernatural despite being on tumblr from around 2015. November 2020 felt like an absolute fever dream.
Fantastic video as always! 😊
You gave the best description I've heard about 'Ship It'.
And yes, I read it, and no, it wasn't great. It wasn't as bad as I thought, but I went into it with low expectations.
Correction; I was just reminded about the outing that was in the book, and it was actually worse in other ways than I expected.
I had this playing on silent at work for that first day engagement but i'll be actually watching today, i cant wait!!
I binged the first season in middle school in order to avoid family that was in town visiting lmao, i never really got into it past that
I was NOT expecting the host club reference lmao. That was the first anime i watched on my own.
Dark!Larry vibes
I was deep into the babygate conspiracy as a young teen so if you need any insight into Larry for any reason i can provide
Please check out darkplace!!
The Ouran example is even funnier bc the brothers are NOT fking, they only PRETEND to be because they know the girls they entertain like that. And it is the LESS toxic and more constructive form of the way they used to troll girls as an outlet for their family trauma before joining the host club.
And not even to mention the fact that in supernatural God has an evil sister called The Darkness
Great video! It brought back many memories from this wild time in fandom XD
Glad you enjoyed it! Hope I did the fandom justice!
Listen, as much as we may clown on the show and the fandom (whether we watched it or not) and as much as it queerbaited its fans, I will forever envy Destiel shippers for being spoiled for choice when it comes to fanfiction. Like they can be as picky as they damn well please. If there's something they wanna read, there's a decent chance someone has already written it (or a dozen people have already written it). Truly the Scrooge McDuck of fandom pairings. Did the Destiel shippers really lose, or did they win long ago?
Loveeee what youre doing king keep it up
Hearing you read the summary of that J2 fic gave me war flashbacks to my time in the fandom, RIP. I could never understand the RPF craze, it just seems so... uncomfy to me.
I was threatened at a convention bc I dared even suggest some people didn't like Misha Collins. Archangel Gabriel's actor was also incredibly drunk and rude to me and that convention put me off the show for good. Great video, David!
What I love about Ouran high school host club is that is a satire of common romance anime tropes
Such as the incest shipping
i'm sorry but the way the show itself is preventing dean from being queer no matter how much he yearns for it is some kind of metatextual miracle trick they pulled. like were the writers kinda awful with it? yeah. and yet still they created this repressed unwell performance of a man that makes me experience emotions that no one else could create within me. the way they buried him as one of the gays makes me feel a sort of anger and sorrow that no great work of art could. I LOVE BAD MEDIA!!!!! accidentally writing him like this and then sometimes on purpose writing him like that in some sort of writers room tug of war is more engaging than any of that "good rep" we could get. and it says so much about queerness. in its own homophobic and queer and incoherent way it is speaking to me. yes i do refer to the cw television show as "the text" why do you ask
Lmao the reveal that omegaverse fanfics come from supernatural is blowing my mind. I was in the fandom but never read that kind of stuff. Ive been following the RE fandom for my entire life, frustrated at the lack of fanfic writers the entire time. The latest entries introduced the series to a whole new generation and one of the games introduced wolf creatures into the lore... and now the most popular pairing of the newly booming fandom is omegaverse slash. Thanks supernatural 😂 now i know who to blame
ahh it's here!!! love you for this video fr (in a completely non parasocial way)
having watched the whole show, unfortunately, i truly don't think I'll ever be free of it or the fandom, for the main reasons of the wasted potential of the show itself and the impact it has had on fandom culture which i am fascinated with
regardless of how dogshit the show eventually became (i will defend the first 5 seasons with my life) i think we should give spn it's due respect for its service to fandom in both a positive and detrimental way depending on your perspective
also the iceberg is just never ending with this show, the actors and fandom drama, the show ended 4 years ago and theres still drama... destiel went canon for the sixth time like 2 weeks ago
insanity and probably my roman empire
how did it go canon *again* when the shows over xD I HAVE QUESTIONS
@DavidMChannel you could probably do a whole video on the shit shows that are the convention panels that have happened post s15, this most recent happening was at a con where I believe jensen commented on destiel being "clear text" so people have lost their minds, again, and the meme currently being passed around is that his nda is over and the cw snipers have stood down so he can finally talk about it 💀
@@hope666 its not the supernatural fandom without the absurd memes when something happens and people go feral
@@prismspheres ur absolutely right lmao
Do you have a discord/community somewhere? I love the conversations that happen on your community tab and would love to participate in a format more conducive to conversation
For a great story written from the perspective of a fan trying to prove that two male actors are dating, strongly recommend 'An Unauthorised Fan Treatise' by Lauren James. It starts off as a delusional fan crossing boundaries and slowly devolves into a murder mystery/thriller. Absolutely brilliant stuff and I want to study Gottie (the main character) under a microscope. It's available for free. (Won't link because idk if that'll get me marked as spam)
Will warn for forced outing and Bury Your Gays (and perhaps a little too much "woe is the little straight girl"), but I do think it works in service of exploring fandom toxicity through the lens of this genre
The worst thing is that everything that was described in the rpf segment is now happening in the Good Omens fandom. People will never learn
*sighs* this does not surprise me. how disapointing.
@DavidMChannel Fandoms never change, unfortunately
i don't mind the fan fiction, cause it's fiction. u don't like it, don't read it. i have felt like i needed to bleach my eyes before, i really pay attention to tags now. did you superwholock without mentioning superwholock?!!! my popcorn wig was fabulous. J2 IS NOT THE SHIP NAME
Hah back in the day one of Cassandra Claire’s friends constantly posted Winchest on lj, I can’t remember her user name though
what kinda annoys me about wincest isn't that the people shipping it were trying to explore a taboo romance - it was bc they just wanted a m/m ship and were so aggressive about any female character that would breathe in the brothers' direction... girlies would rather write incest than to see those brothers married to a woman
I’m not actually involved in the fandom, I just like reading wincest stuff(their writing makes me cry about characters I don’t even know.) I didn’t keep up from when the show was first airing, so idk what was going on back then. But from what I’ve seen they’re really interested in the relationship between the brothers, and in fact often use other characters to explore that. Ummmm idk if this’ll make sense or anything but here’s part of a tumblr post that might help you get some of what I’m trying to say
“dean’s about to have a threesome? not until he gets a thumbs up from his sammy! sam’s making out with a woman? dean’s watching with a smile on his face. zero boundaries. just two brothers crammed into one car, then one motel room, who have an unceasing presence in the other’s life. just sam, who was ready to harvest organs if it meant keeping dean alive. they were never going to be normal.”
I think if they just wanted a gay ship, then they would’ve all moved to Destiel. But I still see people talking about scenes that happened a decade ago. And people seem to like Jess. I think it’s also that the actors are both hot and keep on looking at eachother like they want to kiss. And the brothers can’t really get married cause that’s like the whole point, the hunting takes that away from them.
But yeah I hope this doesn’t come off as abrasive or anything. I just want to share my two cents and maybe try to clear things up? I’m not saying you have to ship them though, I wouldn’t even say I ship them I just enjoy the fandom. I hope you’re doing good.
Ngl, I do love that you didn’t even watch the show for this video XD Like bro that show ran forEVER I don’t blame you at all, the fandom is far more interesting 😂
love the merrily shirt here
AUGH THIS IS SO EXCITING
ok, your retelling of the musical episode is just insane, none of the plot you said is what actually happened. I love the rest of your analysis of the fandom is pretty spot on, but you cant judge a episodes you haven't even seen.
...I mean, I did watch it. If I got some small details wrong I'm sorry but that's a rough enough explanation of the events within it
@@DavidMChannel Oh, thanks for your reply! :-)
well, in that case I dont know if you can understand the episode without haven't watched the rest of the show. The girl who directed the musical didnt know that people got kidnapped because they didn't want the school musical to happen, and the greek goddess only really latched on the passion of the director girl for Supernatural, because that what's gave her power. And Chuck (or Spoiler *god*, the guy who wrote the Supernatural books in the show) had nothing to do with the musical at all. He basically was just there to reveal to the audience, that his character didn't die /disappear 5 seasons ago and would play a role later.
@@mimi1985d I have to be honest I found the episode rather boring so perhaps misremembered the details when I was tking notes, but the main points- what the episode was intended to mean on a metatextual level- Im fairly certain I got correct. I also completely forgot about Chuck lol
@@DavidMChannel yeah, it was one of their typical meta episodes and I have to be honest, their my favorites one because they A) yeah, they're kinda making fun of the fandom and lets be honest, some of us are kinda insane but they also B) also always put something in it, to acknowledge their fans and their love of the show
I love finding out what fic is THE FIC of the year, where if you havent read it, what are you doing?? At the peak of my days in the fandom it was Twist and Shout (Twist & Shout?). Every new one is suddenly THE seminal work in the SPN fandom 😂
Never have watched Supernatural, but I totally knew what Destiel was since...forever? It didn't / doesn't look like a good show to me, and I thought the three main white dudes all looked the same to me so I didn't know who was who really. This was a fun video, thanks for deep diving down into this show. I won't watch the show but it is fun to learn about its fan lore. Also that poor girl at the panel, like it didn't have to go that way. I always forget how bonkers this fandom got.
I will say I am glad that immediately after you can hear people booing you can hear just as many people cheering in response to the question, so at least she wasn't entirely alone. But ugh, its awful. I really think there was a better way to handle that kind of question
I just realized, Castiel looks like Ace Attorney Gumshoe’s less cool brother.
Also I made a sim caller Destiel Iscannon in the sims 4. He’s a mountain climber.
I love Jensen but even i can still admit the way he handled the "Destiel" questions in the past was horrible. Thankfully he has evolved so much and has no problem answering them now, he's also great with Destiel photo op's and autos as well. But it was certainly rough back then lol!
david i love your videos but for my mental sanity i'm going to sit this one out
Ngl as someone who has watched the entire show and has rewatched at least the first like 7-8 seasons a bunch of times (not for several years tho and i barely remember the last like 5 seasons bc they sucked) i never picked up on queerbaiting (im also not known for being able to pick up on queer subtext, but like im just that kind of gay lol). i picked up on straight people making gay jokes. like, you know how you said some people read into the jokes the actors made and used those to make an argument that the actors were gay? that's kind of what i got from the show itself. like there were a lot of situations in the show that were "gay" but to me they always seemed more like "haha look two straight dudes in an uncomfortable (gay) situation." "isnt it funny bc they're straight and its awkward for them?" like tv shows and films in the early 2000s were riddled with that kind of humour. and thats all i remember from the show that would hint towards gay subtext, at least in the early seasons, so i never interpreted that as queerbaiting bc really it was just straight dudes being mildly homophobic. so whenever people start talking about the queerbaiting i always wonder if im crazy and didnt see it or if they just wanted a queer ship so bad (understandably) that they've convinced themselves it was secretly there? like... i genuinely dont see it.
EDIT: it makes me want to go back and rewatch the show ngl, but who even has the time?😂
to be perfectly frank after watching a few Destiel supercuts that was my impression as well, but like, I've not seen the entire show, so I was willing to go off of what others said. Like, its *possible* that some writers leaned into it more, as a bystander I can't really say.
@@DavidMChannel i wouldnt be surprised if in later seasons writers leaned into it seeing as the whole show was very conscious of the fandom. like im pretty sure cas only said he loved dean right before he died bc the writers were leaning into it, but for the majority of the show i really didnt see what people were talking about. i think if queerbaiting did happen it most likely occurred after the writers saw how much the fans shipped destiel.
Well there was definitely some queerbaiting at first with Dean and Cas, but I think that with Castiel’s confession in the last scene it’s pretty clear that they went with one sided love trope or that Dean’s reaction is left open for interpretation.
honestly sometimes i was just watching the show and being like "how is this is any way straight?? how do you want me to believe that these two AREN'T together!???" but that was mostly in the later seasons
Supernatural has a rich history
I hear you and agree with what you're saying mostly I think I'd be more interested if you had watched more than a couple episodes. In fact I think I read the same j2 conspiracy timeline writing you did which is why I'm genuinely asking.. what is the heterosexual explaination for not bringing your wife and kids for 9+ months at a time to go film in another country? And it's not even across the world it's literally Canada.
Please I am completely genuine and happened to see this pop up looking for Coley supernatural fandom stuff that apparently does not exist.
I knew omegaverse came from Supernatural fandom. But I didn't know it came from Supernatural RPF of all things. Or that the term tinhatting was originally about that specific RPF conspiracy theory. Wow. 😂
It really is insane how Wincest was EVERYWHERE in the fandom (to the point where I had to blacklist it because I was sick of it) and I didn't see too much of a backlash about it back then. And my thoughts amounted to, "Whatever. I have to blacklist uninteresting things all the time." Fast forward to 2024. There really are groups who will try to mass-harass you if you don't Condemn Wincest In The Strongest Possible Terms, because WHAT IF an impressionable child read your fic and decided assaulting their siblings was okay in real life (never mind the question why was a child reading your adult-topics fic)... but also in 2024 people will still try to insist shipping REAL LIFE PEOPLE is somehow okay. I don't care if you don't personally know them (and you're writing OCs based on your impression of a stranger) or if you do personally know them (bruh.....), that is creepy as hell.
I'm very much a person who thinks, "it's words, in a story, for adults, about fictional people, so if it has content warnings and you have a back button, we can go our separate ways" generally. But when it comes to real actual people, that is disrespectful as hell. That does actually hurt real people. And like you said, it's tantamount to trying to out them. Signed, a person who "got shipped" with their best friend despite us never dating, will never be dating, and we don't talk to that person who said that to us anymore. Don't do that, man.
I was a supernatural fan my use name is Bodge. I was a Sam fan. I live in Delaware.
Becky was a Sam girl who we are introduced to about a mile from my house.
Still not sure how to take that one? (I mostly write meta)
The body possessed by Lucifer lived about 2 miles in the other direction? 😂
im a long time fan of Supernatural and watched the 200th episode live. I hate it. as a teenager at the time it felt extremely condescending. it was better than becky sure but i would've rather they just never included fans in the narrative again
I have to comment on a few things as someone who is a huge fan of this show and feels like everyone seems to be shi**** on it in the comments. I always find it so funny how people who stopped watching the show always seem to have the most "issues" with the show and the fandom. If you didn't like it, that's perfectly fine, but I find it kind of sus that they can't stop whining and spitting vitriol about the fans, actors, and show when they didn't even finish watching it. Now, while I'll fully admit that our fandom (we call a family) can be as dysfunctional as any family can be, most of the time we generally care about one another and the actors and crew. I'm not personally a Destiel shipper, but I do see how the show's creators played into that. That being said, art is subjective, whether it is a painting, film, television show, book...whatever medium it is...some fans can be very toxic when it comes to their ships. Similar to how religious fanatics push their religion on others, shippers tend to be ferociously adamant that their ship should be cannon and anyone else's interpretation is wrong and furthermore they are somehow "anti" whatever their ship represents, when that is simply not true. I've already ranted way to long, and I'm sure some people are going to get their hackles up about me defending the show and the actors, but I have to say one more thing. Jensen is not homophobic! Stop putting that on him because he doesn't ship your ship! He is entitled to his opinion and feelings as he is a human being just like everyone else. In fact, after meeting him several times throughout the years he has been nothing but kind and humble. One bad thing I will say about some people in our fandom is that they seem to think that just because they attend every supernatural convention and sit in the very pricey front row that the actors are really truly their BFFs. You don't know them, and they don't know you, so stop projecting your own insecurities on them and the rest of the fandom and just enjoy the show, or not...its up to you.
I also feel like, that in 2010 the actors got kind of scolded by the network and were to told to downplay "Destiel" and there was a lot of fanwars online and on other cons before between pro and anti destiel shippers and thats why the room and Jensen reacted that way to this question
I mean from someone who watched the show occasionally, and whose parents watched it religiously the queer baiting wasn’t really that overt. It was a lot of hopeful young queer people hoping for representation in a very popular very beloved mainstream show.
I'm admitedly taking other peoples word for it when i say they 'definitley queerbaited'. In the few fanedits I watched of there moments together I didn't get much of a vibe but I chalked that up to me missing context and my gaydar being kinda bad when it comes to intentional subtext (me reading x-men thinking its totally normal for kitty pryde and rachel summers to share a bed because there such close friends is a real thing which has happened). The show was at least aware of it to a degree, and with the writers room presumably being shuffled around a lot over the years it probably varied a lot.
yeah and like. what i saw was less queerbaiting and more homophobic jokes in the show.
Okay, yes, SPN and destiel fan here, but i do get annoyed by the repeated by everyone idea that Cas admitted his love and was immediately sent to super mega hell. While there are legitimate criticisms to be made, this statement really mischaracterizes what happened for non fans. Cas did NOT go to hell, super or otherwise. He went to the Empty, which is the afterlife for ALL angels and demons (they're already in heaven and hell so if they "die" they have to go somewhere else). Non regular viewers will hear "hell" and assume a moral judgement. There is none, he was an angel and died as such. The "super hell" statement comes from the character in charge of the empty taunting a dying angel it was very very very angry with. It says that the Empty is worse than Hell because Hell is something and the empty is nothing. But the show had been to both places. Hell is a realm where you'll be tortured endlessly until you can't remember you were even human. The Empty is a place where you sleep eternally and dream about your life. Thats it. Which would you pick?
It really muddies the waters when people try to analyze that scene and discuss bury your gays, etc, and keep referencing "super hell". He went to standard Angel afterlife.
For more info for those actually reading this far that might care: the context for the scene, Cas had made a deal a season earlier to trade his life for another. The empty was pissed at him so it said that it wouldn't take him until he was truly happy. He thought he was safe cause he thought he couldn't be truly happy without being with Dean and he didn't feel Dean would reciprocate his feelings. In this moment he realizes he needs to summon the Empty to save Dean, but therefore has to feel true happiness. He realizes he didn't need to be with Dean to feel happy, just telling him his feelings and accepting them himself, and then knowing that he was saving Deans life made him happy enough to bring the empty. It was a deliberate act of sacrificing yourself for someone you love, which gets lost in the whole thrown into super hell meme. Not saying it is or isn't Bury your gays, not my place, but that those discussing it are often lacking context.
in the most honoring and appreciative way possible, i cant believe you just said theres no issue with incest fics of fictional characters and put your face on it. the only fandom space i really interact with is tf2, and you'd genuinely become a bit of a social piranha if you ever produce or consume anything scout/spy openly. like they are literally not real
Which is funny to me, because IIRC Spy being Scout's dad is just fanon and was never officially confirmed (unless something has really changed a lot since I last interacted with TF2 lol)
@@Kintsugi23 it was confirmed in one of the comics where scout is about to die and spy tells him he’s his dad while disguised as tom jones. so canonically he thinks tom jones is his dad. i love this game
Thude is a good gender neutral for dude.
You lost me already at 1:58. You clearly only found the fans who stopped liking it after Season 5. Every season is better than the last. Those who don't like 6 and up just aren't bright enough to understsnd them. It gets deep.
every season isn't better than the last tho. im saying this as a person who enjoys all the seasons btw. also dont insult people who you a. don't know and b. are insulting because they just dont like the last 9 seasons of a cw show.
An actual mic instead of your phone? Sellout 😂
okay IN MY DEFENSE the iphone I used in that first CC video is now broken🤣
Wait Cain and his wife were very clearly Dean and Sam parallels… this is shippers rewriting canon. They love to say Sam “was just there” as if he’s not a lead character.