@@behindyou3689 I hate communism but history is history. It’s interesting to hear the reasoning behind them. I’ve read gulag archipelago (highly recommend). A terrible system
So "non-biased" is empty words about the "horror of this system and inhumanity" without citing any statistics other than the fact that the upkeep of a prisoner cost more than the minister's salary? Nothing strange about this, huh? I never cease to be amazed at how much people's brains are polluted with Cold War propaganda. Even here in the comments, many still non-ironically refer to Solzhenitsyn's fairy tales. Although not a single historian will dare to refer to his words, they contradict any archival data. In the United States, even before the gulag, there was a "Chain gang" about which people usually do not know anything at all. And until now, many prisoners are involved in agricultural work.. To this day.. Did you hear about this? It so happened that the Western bloc won the Cold War, so listen further to the tales of the gulag with millions of victims, cannibalism and other nonsense.
So in conclusion, just to make sure I got it :) The gulag system was always more of a liability in terms of money and upkeep but it offered the quick and somewhat cheap workforce to build as you said the canals and some of the factories needed for the USSR's industrialization plus the mines, town, facilities for hard to acces regions of Russia for the exploitation of natural resources
Absolutely not : absolutely all projects done thanks to gulag labor force turned out to be unproductive at best and often counter-productive. For instance in theory they extracted a lot of precious metals from unsafe mines but in fact the metal had to be reworked thoroughly by more competent manpower (often lent top-tier American workforce) before being usable in any way. China during the Great Leap Forward repeated that folly except that they submitted the whole population not only convicts to the same counter-productive labour. Nearly all towns and villages built by convicts in Siberia are now ghost localities. The canal built to the White Sea rapidly turned out to have no use so unfit it was for commercial navigation apart from serving to Stalin's own pleasure gondolas like Louis XIV's own Grand Canal in Versailles. It failed to provide any practical utility during WWII for Leningrad.
Despite being a rather somber video, in my opinion the presentation is immaculate and story telling is on par with works of Lemmino. Keep it up, love your videos!
Naftaly Frenkel was an interesting guy - a merchant of mysterious origin - the story is that in the first camp he was imprisoned in he went to the camp commandant and told him he was running his camp inefficiently and persuaded him to reorganize it.
I think that in the early stages of industrialization, forced Labor can actually bei useful. But later on this effect disappears and forced labor leads to inefficiency because there is no need to use advanced machinery if you have cheap Labor.
There was another guy in the gulags who worked on designing aircraft and went on to produce like 22 different designs that were adopted. That's not including the ones that weren't. He was responsible for TONS of the military planes russia has. Possibly over half.
I found this to be an interesting history video! A bit of a mixed legacy with these camps: the USSR was able to build things that it wouldn't otherwise build as quickly, but the working conditions were terrible. Something for me to keep in mind if I ever ride on the Baikal-Amur Mainline or visit the Volga-Don Canal.
So, if you build your system on the basis of "stamping out the exploitation of the Proletariat," and one of the first things you do, is find some Proletariat to exploit...kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it? I mean, capitalists can brutally exploit your Proletariat, and give you shiny things, besides. In the "bad old days" in the USA, mine owners used to pay their workers in "script": non-negotiable tickets, provided by the company, that looked like money, but wasn't: "I can't believe it's not money!" The USSR only allowed "common citizens" internal money, foreign money was illegal, unless you were Inner Party. Essentially script. Again, Capitalism could do the exact same thing, only with some shiny stuff, besides.
_' the USSR was able to build things that it wouldn't otherwise build as quickly,'_ Yet South Korea was able to industrialise faster than the USSR. Further, a much larger percent of its country was destroyed by war - about 90% of the south - than the USSR's. It did so without the benefit of German and Japanese POW/slave labour. And it did so without a gulag. Further, it is far more densely populated, lacks the natural resources the Soviet Union possessed, and is not self sufficient in the basics, such as food. It passed the USSR in GDP per capita (PPP) in 1987, 26 years after Pres Park launched the national development effort and 34 years after the Korean War. If we look at the present state, Korea has a robust economy high on the value-added chain, has a low GINI of 0.307 (comparable to Ireland and France), scores very high on the UN's Human Development Index, its high school students score amongst the top nations in standardised tests, it is the 4th most highly educated country measured by adults' attainment of tertiary education, has large number of people who go on to graduate studies, and ranked #4 in patents filed by country. Korean manufacturers and service businesses are highly regarded globally in many sectors. The same cannot be said for any Russian company. Russia is famous (or infamous, if you prefer) for its past. Korea is famous for its present and future.
@@gagamba9198 South Korea also had a lot of external investment to reach that outcome, don't forget. International efforts at building them up as an 'FU' to the Soviets was a major contributor to their success. Compare them to how a lot of other former colonies fared over the same time period, the ones that *didn't* get international support. Would be nice if Russia could have had the same, but... they did a great job alienating the world, for a lot of reasons, some valid reasons, some much less so. But regardless of the reasons, Russia could not expect the amount of foreign investment as South Korea got. They have a lot of deep and severe structural and cultural issues, but one of the realities of their position was that they *had* to build infrastructure quickly, after the death and decay of the civil war. And they couldn't have done it the way South Korea did. So they used the systems familiar to them to achieve that end; the legacy concepts and systems of the Imperial era. They slapped a new label onto the oppressive machinery of the Tsar's Empire, and called it 'Socialism'. I would say that their greatest failure and the biggest hurdle in their economic development (along with a hell of a lot of other types of development) was in their inability to actually discard the cultural norms and values that the Tsardom had left them with; that disregard for life and a focus on authoritarian control. If they had reformed more, then they could have had more international cooperation and investment, had a healthier, more diversified economy and society. The more I learn about Russian history, the more it seems like they never really changed, regardless of what the government calls itself or what economic system it uses. Corruption and dysfunction.
@@gagamba9198 you do know south Korea is practically a US puppet state at this point anyways South Korea got money from the west and resources something which was harder for the Soviet to get die to western sanctions
Setarko, I greatly appreciate this video and learned a lot of new things from it that are typically obscure here in the Nordics. As for if the gulag system was worth it for its industrial potential, my answer is a resounding "no, not at all". My reasoning is as follows: While the USSR and even modern Russia would undeniably have been very different without the gulags, us nords faced similar problems in industrialization at the time (though on a smaller scale, as our land area and populations were much smaller), with entire provinces without any infrastructure to speak of. The softer government investments and mass employment projects into civilian industry, consumer production, and welfare were more expensive to complete, but by population managed to keep pace with the USSR and all that extra spending went into strengthening the civilian economy. While the problems faced in industrializing Russia were definitely larger, I think a different political leadership could have mobilized the required workforce and capital from a volunteer population through a combination of rewards, "greater good" propaganda, and patriotic fervor; however, such a move would have required more decentralized and equitable power as well as political investment and clout to the lower-rank workers' unions, which probably wouldn't have been a good base for a Stalinist dictatorship. Maybe in some alternate history, the USSR would instead have become a Russian Socialist Congress with a slightly weaker military than in our timeline by the outbreak of WW2, but a larger more adept labor pool to expand military industry and armed services with during the war, as well as being (able to pretend to be) a freer and more prosperous society in the cold war. What do you think?
You see... If you are a sane person and leader you simply don't introduce decentralisation policies a few years after the civil war in which several dozens of independent states were been proclaimed within your country. And on a side note. Did Nordic countries face consecutively 2 greatest powers in the world? First bee the greatest military power ag Germans, the second being the greatest economic and naval ag USA/GB alliance.
@@sergeyfromkyiv4531 That is true, we didn't have a civil war and then get bombed into rubble in WW2, which makes a pretty big difference. Rebuilding civil administration and political machinery is a lengthy process, so with the hindsight of knowing when WW2 was going happen I have to agree that such reforms likely wouldn't have been completed in time. As for the Cold War - yeah, we pretty much did. You see, Sweden and Finland were (are) neutral left-liberal social democracies who refused to bend the knee for the US, which as far as D.C. was concerned made us socialist countries in a strategically vital region; that is, "team red" rather than "team blue". Norway, Denmark, and Iceland were liberated by the allies (never mind that the allies were the first to invade Norway and Iceland to prevent the region from falling to the nazis) after which the US-UK military remained to "help their allies" in efforts that none of those countries ever asked for and that at times more resembled a "soft occupation" than a security contingent. The economic influence and trade is largely parallell to the east bloc countries who were able to openly trade with capitalist powers, we just didn't have the same kind of authoritarian police state, corruption, nor political collapse in the late 80ies.
@@DavidBarkland I read that before the Soviet collapse, the Communist Party of Finland was regularly part of the Governments. Not alone, though. But still. The Soviet Centralized Economy had many aberrations. Regardless the corruption. But I believe these are realities that were part of Russian politics BEFORE. Putin is in office for decades already. Some things are just part of a nation's tradition, and they are hard to dethrone. Centralization and allegiance to hierarchies is one of them, in Russia.
Hi. I'm from Lithuania, I knew a lot of people who were exiled to Siberia. Most of them are dead now. For example neighbours in my family farm, were exiled as teenagers because their parents were teachers. They said they got lucky, they were in fishing gulag and were left with fish gut, heads and tails, so never had to face starvation. But things were grim.
Well, if Stalin would not have shown up, Sovietunion would possibly lost the war against Hitler. But without that pact of Hitler and and Stalin, there would have been possibly no war at all. It is, what it is. Stop evil people in time, if you have the chance.
The European philistine outside: "We must be tolerant of refugees......" The European philistine inside: "It would be good to drive these refugees into the GULAG..." Stalin's laughter: "Contradictions according to Marx..."
My understanding had been that they were labor camps that had variable quality of living and did have actual criminals and fascists, but also people who were pulled in by association.
Tho most of the infrastructure wasn't that useful, many of the projects didn't achieved the level of quality for the intended use. If I remember correctly, the canal didn't work because the lack of machinery it couldn't be deep enough and boats couldn't cross it and similar problems in other projects.
Yes, good suggestion! I have never heard of such a place........I mean I knew something like that probably had to exist, but I knew nothing past that assumption.
@@ontheline3077 we meant the use of psikhushkas to torture and silence dissidents. The saying was that only mentally sick people could hate living in socialist paradise of soviet union.
I saw a video a few days ago that said according to the amount of early deaths, illnesses and depression cases and hellhole conditions in an extremely drab city, Norilsk was the worst city in the world.
It is interesting that the owners of the Norilsk mines and factories exploit what was created under the "bloody Stalin". People without honor and conscience...Moreover, they consider it unprofitable to repair it. Expect news about the increased number of suicides and alcoholism among workers.
I read in a Brittish Book, completely dedicated to the Soviet Revolution, that Russian Empire, under the last Tsar was so miserable, that most prisoners in Siberian labour camps - yes, they were there before Communism - actually had a lot better and more abundant food there, than they did when they were free. LOLOL.
Very good video as always! And very interesting. I went to Siberia twice for vacation in spring and even if the nature there is beautifull, I am very happy that I wasn't there sâs a prisonner under stalin.
Forced labor was essential for the Soviets to industrialize their nation at a rapid pace, which was essential to compete with the United States on the global stage in terms of power, because the USA wished to maintain their monetary interest in dominating much of the world post-WWII. Gulags were partly a defensive measure that may not have existed if not for living under the constant threat of United States terrorism. We have to remember that the Soviet Union was a largely agrarian society before and immediately following the revolution, with atrocious literacy rates and a horribly low life expectancy. About 40 years later, they put the first human in space and had the largest leap in life expectancy in history. And the more they industrialized to defend against potential US aggression, the more the US viewed them as an enemy worth being aggressive toward. The Cold War brought out the worst in both nations.
6:44 the same policy has been applied by the city of Rotterdam during its reconstruction period after the Rotterdam blitz and ww2. Due to lack of houses large families were deported to former third reich concentration camp Westerbork because their was enough living space for them. Relatives of the deported had to fight in courtcases for over 60 years just to clarify their reputation that they weren't criminals. Eventually the court decided that post ww2 policy was an criminal act against the people.
Here's a thing: From perspective of struggling government this is a great thing to do, no denying that. But most people look at it from our own perspective or perspective of our grandparents who might have actually went there, that is why gulags are so outrageous. If I am a politician: heck yeah I'll put those prisoners to work. If I'm a civilian: **** no. Also don't forget that many people who went to gulags didn't commit much crimes, if any, and they died for it
@@kucingcat8687 I said many of them, who were just political prisoners and jailed for their views, many were land owners who didn't give up their property. some officers and generals were sent to gulag instead of being shot during Stalin's purge, some of them even were brought back in army during ww2. I don't think these are crimes. Of course many many criminals were sent to gulags as punishment
Well, while GULAGs were not essential for the economic growth and development of the USSR, what they were usefull for was the SPEED at which the nation was industrializing. The main reason the USSR survived ww2 was it's massive industry that it build up in the 30s. The GULAGs played a major role in that. Were it not for ww2, the GULAGs would have been completely pointless.
@@omega0195 They were paid for their work, they were clothed and fed for a few years, not their whole life. This is a labor camp and nothing more, in the United States to this day a huge number of prisoners are involved in agriculture.
@@thorthewolf8801 Agreed. Saying they were "essential" makes it seem that Russia's hands were tied in committing the atrocities they committed with gulags. In reality you are not forced to commit evil, and evil should never be labeled "essential".
@@madmanswhispers "Evil" is not a historical term. And it makes any historical statement look like a child's babbling. I mean, what evil is in constructing a factory or a dam? Bad material conditions of prisoners? Sure. But they are objective. And evil is a purely subjective notion.
It would be too much to ask for in a short video, but to understand the gulags and they problems it would be needed to look into a bigger picture, not just background on industrialization like you did well, but with other things happening at the same time like the purges and internal problems alike, the purges (and the tension before within the soviet structure) led to an enormous conviction of people (thats why probably there was a surplus of convicts like you said) and most of them where convicted even being innocent, and like I said, thats wasnt because of Stalin paranoia but the framework of USSR structure at the time, a good way to understand that is how Stalin reacted to what they done to Rokossovsky, we assume that Stalin was an All-powerfull being that controlled everything in USSR but thats far from reallity. other thing to be notice is that the penal time convicts would serve under gulags was way shorter than the average of regular prisions in general, if you where deemed guilty and had to serve more than 6 years in gulag you where convicted for some serious shit. but great video nonetheless :)
Do a video on the Americans that Stalin killed After moving there during the depression since the papers said there was no unemployment in the USSR. At first they were welcomed as it made the US look bad like Cubans escaping communism did during the Cold War. There were baseball games and leagues in Moscow. Later he decided they were all spies and they were killed. The U S embassy did not help.
cool. please do a video on why the USA has a gulag archipelago today next. that would be interesting [the US today has more prisoners per capita than any other state].
It has more crime per capita than other developed countries. More criminals will get you more prisoners. Here's an example. There were 124 homicides in Sweden in 2020. Sweden's population is about 10 million people. The US at approx. 330,000,0000 is 33 times more populous. If Sweden and the US had the same homicides per capita, the US would have recorded in 4,092 in 2020. The actual number was 21,570. This is about 5.3 times more than Sweden. More crimes committed per capita result in more arrests per capita, more prosecutions per capita, and more prisoners per capita. That's how the cookie crumbles.
Eh not really. Conditions wise and labor wise the US doesn’t at all. The labor prisoners did don’t equate to the level of a gulag and the death rate is certainly not as high. Living conditions aren’t nearly as bad. The comparisons only work in that, larger number of people are in prison and do labor to some degree. The system is bad tho and deserves rounds of criticisms.
Of course. It is studied in history lessons as well as in Russian literature lessons. The works of Solzhenitsin and other authors are part of the school program.
Pretty much the current regime makes everything possible to hype the gulags as much as they can to smear anything communist. You have entire museums, dedicated to gulag camps, often fake. The prison Serpantinka says hi.
They are taught too much. This hysteria over gulags (with totally fake numbers, obviously) is used by fascists and clergymen to push their agenda in schools.
Work-labor camps will exist in every Communist/Socialist country as long as they have people who are "unwilling to work". Hitler called such people "useless eaters". Deng Xiaoping knew that China needed State Capitalist reforms otherwise he would have needed work-labor camps to prop up a post-Mao Communist economy. Long story short, Communism needs an underclass of people contributing more than they take in order for Communism to work, AKA "Slaves". Otherwise the economy dies via corruption and market inefficiencies, like paying people just to maintain employment quotas.
I remember listening to Gulag Archipelago audiobook while running, and sometimes I was almost crying, it was hard to keep running on my neat little treadmill when I was hearing such horrors. Frankly, I don't remember much of the book, but the feeling of sheer horror and despair will always be connected to this topic. Great video, please keep them coming.
While Solzhenicin is a great writer, he's shit as a chronicler and historian. Archipelago, like a lot if his other creations, is more like a work of fiction based on real events, rather than a scientific study that represents the reality. A lot of the Soviet dissidents, even those, who were in the gulag at the same time as Solzhenicin, critisized him for exaggeration and misrepresentation.
@@md_hyena Thanks for letting me know! I'll look up about these inaccuracies further. Looks like it's especially clear that he fudged the numbers, but the qualitative exaggerations may never be fully revealed. Still, having half of my family sent to Siberia back in the day, my bias is that lots of the stories can be plausible. But of course accuracy would have been the best...
Speaking from practicality, not morality. I think the only essential part of the gulags resulted in time. The same economic growth would have still happened, just slower. If the argument was made that he communist system required the use of forced labor, and motivation through fear to function.. I think we've discovered the real issue.
Why would it have been slower in a market economy that respected human rights? Industrialization in the USA and Britain happened quite rapidly without forced labour in a time when the same technologies were less mature.
@@rwatertree from the state in which they started. In comparison to the continued mixed market economy of the Monarchy. This is speculation of course. But the soviets top priority was industrialization, and economic growth. I doubt a semi capitalist monarchy would have progressed as fast. And of course that growth doesn't excuse the genocidal war crimes committed in its name.
@@rwatertree yes the workers in Britain where treated incredibly humanely during the industrial revolution. Also free markets are well known for respecting human rights- just look at black markets,the freeest of markets- and Hong Kong, where the poor get great housing-sorry I meant cages.
My understanding, especially after studying the prison system in my home country (the USA), is that honestly the gulags were no worse than any prison system in any country up to that point and even now, most countries have political prisoners, forced labor camps, and incredibly shitty conditions for prisoners, the solution is prison abolition (in its current form at least). Like, let’s be objective, it’s all bad and we should probably all move towards a system focused on reintegration into society and not punishment.
After three months a prisoner at the system of camps near the Kolyma river was an exhausted shell - left to die of exhaustion, a 'gonner'. Read all about it in wikipedia, or the Kolyma Stories by Varlam Shalamov.
Just imagine : you have labor camp with 100000 workers , but 20k of them have their prison term almost ended . Where to get replacements for these prisoners ? So , state must prolong terms of already imprisoned OR must guaranteed BY ANY MEANS another 20k people could face long enough jail term .
@@edpyasecky2225 well so you need adjust number of camps to crime statistics. I hope they will cancel that project of returning of gulags because it will work for good of people only if organisers are bribe-resistant living saints
Simple answer efficency. Look at great wall of China, what a marvel. Would be impossible to build something like that with ethical labour. Call it a necessary evil at that time for the empire that needed it against Mongols
@@MalleusImperiorum there where 2 different gulags. The real gulag for political enemies and the second for criminals. And yes, there were innocent people there too, but the concept is still brilliant.
@Sanctus Paulus No biggie compared to victims of capitalism - for example, much more people died in Hitler's extermination camps. If you say "Muh National SOCIALISM", tell me, who paid for Hitler's campaign? Who profited from privatization and union prohibition? Who produced ovens for death camps? Who produced weapons for the Wehrmacht and SS troops? Who went to Munich in 1938?
Well, justifying Gulags is pretty darn trivial: Slaves are just absurdly cost effective for their owners. Just look at prison labor in the USA - same principle. Obviously, that only works for low quality semi-unskilled labor if you insist on treating your slaves badly. Luckily, the evolution from slavery going through serfdom ended at the worker model for now: People have to compete with others on a market sell their labor for money - incentivized not by the wip but by constant existential dread and consumerism propaganda. Way less cruel than gulags - but definitely more pervert.
In Bulgaria, aside from the labor camps, we had what was call the Labor Army. Since everyone had to do a mandatory 2 year military service, they put the "untrustworthy" people in labour regiments. You can't gather your dissident friends and overthrow the government if all you have is a shovel. :) They built many large infrastructure projects here and many, many apartment building, all of them of terrible quality. They were always in a hurry because if you finished your project quicker you might gain favour with the party. Thus the saying was - "With all of our strength we will do 5 in 4". Communist bullshit, all of it.
So sickening to use your own people as slave labor. Even more sickening to know people still worship the guy responsible for it. I am pretty sure, they would have served their time well, if they were put in gulags.
Any prison in the world enslaves people, open your eyes. Moreover, many people in gulags actually "worshipped" the regime, and knew perfectly well why they were put there.
One question i always have, how many actual criminals(murderes, robbers etc) were in the gulag system? I see the us since it has a harsh stance on crime it has a prision population of 2,3 million, i see the gulags had something similar numbers of prisioners but the percentage of actual criminals is a mistery
It is really hard to know the actual number. Mostly because political prisoners were not always sent to camps because of " political" articles. But I think it is safe to say that at least around 35% of the prisoners definitely were actual criminals. Maybe more. "Liberal" sources usually quote a figure of 30%. Pro-communist sources usually quote 65-70%. The truth, most likely, is somewhere in the middle, because the data from the archives can be interpreted in different ways, and not everywhere these archives have been preserved.
@@Setarko that's interesting. You yourself have made it clear that you are on the liberal camp of things, but non the less its good to hear a Russians perspective on this. Here in the west the picture that is painted of gulags is that they were Joe Stalins personal prisons I had never heard about actual criminal being sent there, but it makes sense since it was a prison. Same with the famines of 30s, you hear alot about the claims of genocide towards ukrianian people, but rare you hear about other nationalities that also suffered. Anyways good work, you deserve more subs, everyone had their biases but you tried to keep yours as neutral as possible and in this day and age that is very commendable
The people on the gulags where usually fascists or monarchists, and even some thieves, they didn’t stay usually more than 10 years on the gulags (except the nazis, those guys where expected to die working) even though the conditions where shitty for human beings, at least they built stuff fast, I’m not complaining
@@vermas4654 That "Korolev beaten in gulag" BS comes from Perestroika. And when some data "suddenly" appears during Perestroika, it's 99.9% sensationalist anti-Soviet BS. Moreover, Korolev just died too early. What might've really brought the Soviets to the Moon is if the Politburo had decided to let Chelomey Design Bureau lead the project instead of Korolev one.
@@MalleusImperiorum he died because of a deformed jaw he had either from a broken jaw or scurvy. The first from beatings during torture after his arrest and the later from his gulag stay.
@@vermas4654 What? Korolev died during a surgical operation on his intestine. He had cancer. His heart stopped during the operation. What are you talking about? A broken jaw (even if he had one) isn't lethal.
9:43 or rather he wouldn't die due to broken jaw which haven't healed properly. Seriously, some NKVD bastard broke his jaw during "questioning" and it became a problem later in life of Korolev
10:38 who needs big salary when you own everything? Partokrats didn't need to pay for anything. Houses? Owned by government, you can go ahead and live in one issued to you by Party. Cars, goods and services... everything was paid for by government, but only for Partokrats.
Korolev died due to heart complications brought by kidney issues he developed because of the harsh conditions of the gulag he was in what are you on about?
@@softb did he? I heard he died because he couldn't open his jaw properly, so the medic (surgeon maybe, but idk) couldn't put a tube into his mouth and tube was necessary for operation.
Excellent video! Before we judge (and we like to judge) so many factors have to be considered as to why this system existed (I am no fan of it!). One must first look at the time, place and recent history (WW1, civil war, war with other nations) to understand how this could have happened ....
@@JK-oq9cl Stalin was just as evil as Hitler - so no, it wasn't "better" than Nazi rule, in fact it was just as awful under Stalin's inhumane dictatorship as it was under Hitler's inhumane dictatorship. Do you understand what i'm trying to say? - I'm saying that Hitler and Stalin were two of the most evil men of all time, and for you to sit here on youtube, commenting about how much you love/rescpect Stalin is insane. - Stalin is responsible for the death of millions of people - the gulag camps, the Holodomor famine - that Stalin created himself, and all the mass murder Stalin ordered - especially during the great purge - 1937-38 - during those years, Stalin had 681 000 people murdered because he was thinking they might be trying to start a revolution against his regime - he wanted to secure his power so he could continue to "terrorize" the people of the Soviet union. Stalin was a monster, end of story - everyone that supports him are insane/awful people.
@@soccergod9149 Did you notice the funny little difference between Gulags and German Camps? No? It does seem weird how in German ones your death is pretty much a guarantee. Hell, most people dont even know just who invented them in the first place: The Brits. Turns out you can do anything to a Colony as long as its Africans.
It doesn't make much sense to treat the gulag as a mere result of circumstance, independent of the beliefs of its creators. The issues that the Soviets tried to address by sending masses of people to the gulag were of their own making. Shortages in housing and consumer goods were a result of expropriating private farms and encouraging urbanization in. The presence of 'subversives' who had to be segregated from the rest of the population was a result of the war with the Whites and suppression of rebellions (e.g. Kronstadt) which were themselves due to the Bolsheviks' support for revolutionary socialism and centralised control of the economy.
they were not prisoners they were men who spoke their mind and did not like and were against the regime they were slaves who often died but were quickly replaced, yes today people work there too but are paid wages they are not slaves, then free labour who would not prosper under those conditions,
Terrible, the cost was also in trust of the government which in modern Russia is at an incredibly low level. You can't even argue that it was necessary for the survival of Russia as Russia was allied with the victors of WW2.
@A L P H A _ W A V E Really? Capital punishment compared to death camps? Executing someone for being a mass murderer compared to taking children to gas chambers? Can you please name a European country that did not practice death sentences in the 30's?
I think about the pain of the gulags quite often. Prisoners not only tired, starving and abused, but that blistering cold. Being out in minimal clothing in -50 celcius temperatures is a form of brutality and cruel that is hard to fathom.
Great videos. Can I offer my opinion? Explanatory subtitles are right on the youtube red timeline, so when I pause to read them, I can't really see them. Also the polished steel 3D chapter markers look so....90's
The Nazis also loved prison camps. Anyone who was "an enemy of the state" was put into a camp to work until he either died from guards using him as target practice, some fucked up doctor doing human exams on him, or just plain exhaustion. These were awfully efficient for the Germans though, just as they were for the USSR. The main differences were that Nazis had a huge supply of foreign enemies to chew through, while the USSR had to use their own citizens. If actual criminals were not in big enough supply as they often were not, anyone who even looked at a portrait of Stalin the wrong way, would be chosen instead, if everyone could cite the communist propaganda religiously, just pick the least efficient worker. This system was not a solution to criminals, it was a solution to needing brutally exploitable forced labor. And what it really was used for, was not to kickstart a better life for all in the USSR. Most of it went to military needs. Regular people starved and lived in communal housing, or a terrible grey concrete commie block. The profits of terrorizing and enslaving the people were spent so they could parade thousands of tanks around, and threaten to seize more of Europe to terrorize and enslave.
The concept of crimes against humanity is bizarre, since it's part of human nature to commit crimes against one another. With no remorse, limits or regrets. It's like saying the moon is a crime against the night lol. Like it or not, it's just how it is.
This guy basicly a diamond hide behind many bias russian propaganda,i try to search such a non biased channel and i found this one keep going on making this kind of video,love from indonesia comrade
This is an absurd documentary and skips over just about ALL the human torture. Those canals were dug by hand at gun point. By hand i mean literally by hand. Not enough shovels.
Seems to me they could have rapidly industrialized without the Gulag system just by paying their 'employees' extra wages. They could easily set up a system where they payed a Script that was only useful in the 'company' stores set up at the workers camps, maybe as an incentive they could do like a 25/75% split between Rubles and Script so people could send some money home do their dependents. Then again, that all sounds kinda capitalistic for the USSR.
Weird thing: the statue of the man and women holding the hammer and sickle has a replica here in Egypt, but instead, they are holding a water mine in the 6th of October city
Is it possible that you could talk about the book, "Drawings from the Gulags"? It's apparently based on true experiences and I was wondering if you could cover it, and prove if any of the drawings actually happened in the Gulag system.
it based on drawings of prison guard who never worked in Gulags itself. He drawed it from prison folklore, google biography of the author pls first. Soljenitsyn is better source
"The only problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher The Soviets knew this all too well. Thus, what better way to supplement the diminishing returns of theft than to introduce a system of slave labor?
@@ccnomz The only problem with Thatcherism is that you eventually run out of North Sea Oil money. The only problem with you is that you are economically illiterate.
Yes, they get paid.And free healthcare and education. Soljenitsyn himself, "profet" of the anti-communist propaganda, was saved from the brain cancer by prison doctor without paid. Exept those who was nazi supporter during WWII.
Hi Setarko. Noticed that your channel deals extensively with history from a Russian, and thus, Soviet-influenced perspective. I am wondering perhaps you can do a video on Chernobyl. I am curious to see a Russian's perspective on one of the world's most disastrous nuclear meltdowns.
this sounds like a sterallis gamer justifiying why purging aliens are right lol
Too many critters who eat food and occupy living space.
@@die1mayer yeah just like that
Let's be xenophobic, it's really in this year...
But it is right ya know
It was.
Soviet citizen: i don’t like the government
Stalin: *teleports*
****** *******: adios
“That’s not real Communism!!!!!!”-Smart College Educated Person in the West
@@LEARSIKCIGAM communism is when no iPhone and hugo chavez
EDIT: how could I forget the Obamacare to Stalinism pipeline
@@novus201 and vuvuzela
@@LEARSIKCIGAM Sorry, I didn't know that the USSR actually had no state and no monetary system.
@@MalleusImperiorum thank you for playing 😂
I appreciate your effort to stay non-biased. Great series.
@@behindyou3689 I hate communism but history is history. It’s interesting to hear the reasoning behind them. I’ve read gulag archipelago (highly recommend). A terrible system
So "non-biased" is empty words about the "horror of this system and inhumanity" without citing any statistics other than the fact that the upkeep of a prisoner cost more than the minister's salary? Nothing strange about this, huh? I never cease to be amazed at how much people's brains are polluted with Cold War propaganda. Even here in the comments, many still non-ironically refer to Solzhenitsyn's fairy tales. Although not a single historian will dare to refer to his words, they contradict any archival data.
In the United States, even before the gulag, there was a "Chain gang" about which people usually do not know anything at all. And until now, many prisoners are involved in agricultural work.. To this day.. Did you hear about this? It so happened that the Western bloc won the Cold War, so listen further to the tales of the gulag with millions of victims, cannibalism and other nonsense.
This is going to be really controversial...
the realm of "is going" is the future. YOUR place is the past, dead guy!! HAVE AT YOU!!!!
@@solomonreal1977 ?
@@solomonreal1977 Wut?
@@solomonreal1977 stalin lives forever
he is the imortal emperor 👑
@@cristianiiv6418 aww you can't spell :) :) :)
So in conclusion, just to make sure I got it :)
The gulag system was always more of a liability in terms of money and upkeep but it offered the quick and somewhat cheap workforce to build as you said the canals and some of the factories needed for the USSR's industrialization plus the mines, town, facilities for hard to acces regions of Russia for the exploitation of natural resources
And wasted it, - - the gulags misdeveloped Siberia and ravaged the ecology
@@JohnSmith-eo5sp who cares about some random critters lmao? What matters is the prosperity of the people.
@@miniaturejayhawk8702 you can’t be serious
Absolutely not : absolutely all projects done thanks to gulag labor force turned out to be unproductive at best and often counter-productive. For instance in theory they extracted a lot of precious metals from unsafe mines but in fact the metal had to be reworked thoroughly by more competent manpower (often lent top-tier American workforce) before being usable in any way. China during the Great Leap Forward repeated that folly except that they submitted the whole population not only convicts to the same counter-productive labour. Nearly all towns and villages built by convicts in Siberia are now ghost localities. The canal built to the White Sea rapidly turned out to have no use so unfit it was for commercial navigation apart from serving to Stalin's own pleasure gondolas like Louis XIV's own Grand Canal in Versailles. It failed to provide any practical utility during WWII for Leningrad.
Despite being a rather somber video, in my opinion the presentation is immaculate and story telling is on par with works of Lemmino. Keep it up, love your videos!
Naftaly Frenkel was an interesting guy - a merchant of mysterious origin - the story is that in the first camp he was imprisoned in he went to the camp commandant and told him he was running his camp inefficiently and persuaded him to reorganize it.
Frenkel saw his personal chance to survive.
I think that in the early stages of industrialization, forced Labor can actually bei useful. But later on this effect disappears and forced labor leads to inefficiency because there is no need to use advanced machinery if you have cheap Labor.
What an underrated channel. Really informative and delivered perfectly. Keep it up!
There was another guy in the gulags who worked on designing aircraft and went on to produce like 22 different designs that were adopted. That's not including the ones that weren't. He was responsible for TONS of the military planes russia has. Possibly over half.
Polikarpov,it seems m
I found this to be an interesting history video! A bit of a mixed legacy with these camps: the USSR was able to build things that it wouldn't otherwise build as quickly, but the working conditions were terrible. Something for me to keep in mind if I ever ride on the Baikal-Amur Mainline or visit the Volga-Don Canal.
So, if you build your system on the basis of "stamping out the exploitation of the Proletariat," and one of the first things you do, is find some Proletariat to exploit...kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it? I mean, capitalists can brutally exploit your Proletariat, and give you shiny things, besides.
In the "bad old days" in the USA, mine owners used to pay their workers in "script": non-negotiable tickets, provided by the company, that looked like money, but wasn't: "I can't believe it's not money!" The USSR only allowed "common citizens" internal money, foreign money was illegal, unless you were Inner Party. Essentially script.
Again, Capitalism could do the exact same thing, only with some shiny stuff, besides.
_' the USSR was able to build things that it wouldn't otherwise build as quickly,'_ Yet South Korea was able to industrialise faster than the USSR. Further, a much larger percent of its country was destroyed by war - about 90% of the south - than the USSR's. It did so without the benefit of German and Japanese POW/slave labour. And it did so without a gulag. Further, it is far more densely populated, lacks the natural resources the Soviet Union possessed, and is not self sufficient in the basics, such as food. It passed the USSR in GDP per capita (PPP) in 1987, 26 years after Pres Park launched the national development effort and 34 years after the Korean War.
If we look at the present state, Korea has a robust economy high on the value-added chain, has a low GINI of 0.307 (comparable to Ireland and France), scores very high on the UN's Human Development Index, its high school students score amongst the top nations in standardised tests, it is the 4th most highly educated country measured by adults' attainment of tertiary education, has large number of people who go on to graduate studies, and ranked #4 in patents filed by country. Korean manufacturers and service businesses are highly regarded globally in many sectors. The same cannot be said for any Russian company.
Russia is famous (or infamous, if you prefer) for its past. Korea is famous for its present and future.
@@gagamba9198 South Korea also had a lot of external investment to reach that outcome, don't forget. International efforts at building them up as an 'FU' to the Soviets was a major contributor to their success. Compare them to how a lot of other former colonies fared over the same time period, the ones that *didn't* get international support.
Would be nice if Russia could have had the same, but... they did a great job alienating the world, for a lot of reasons, some valid reasons, some much less so. But regardless of the reasons, Russia could not expect the amount of foreign investment as South Korea got.
They have a lot of deep and severe structural and cultural issues, but one of the realities of their position was that they *had* to build infrastructure quickly, after the death and decay of the civil war. And they couldn't have done it the way South Korea did. So they used the systems familiar to them to achieve that end; the legacy concepts and systems of the Imperial era. They slapped a new label onto the oppressive machinery of the Tsar's Empire, and called it 'Socialism'.
I would say that their greatest failure and the biggest hurdle in their economic development (along with a hell of a lot of other types of development) was in their inability to actually discard the cultural norms and values that the Tsardom had left them with; that disregard for life and a focus on authoritarian control. If they had reformed more, then they could have had more international cooperation and investment, had a healthier, more diversified economy and society. The more I learn about Russian history, the more it seems like they never really changed, regardless of what the government calls itself or what economic system it uses. Corruption and dysfunction.
@@gagamba9198 you do know south Korea is practically a US puppet state at this point anyways South Korea got money from the west and resources something which was harder for the Soviet to get die to western sanctions
⁸I will have the same problem and it ⁸it as well
Setarko, I greatly appreciate this video and learned a lot of new things from it that are typically obscure here in the Nordics.
As for if the gulag system was worth it for its industrial potential, my answer is a resounding "no, not at all".
My reasoning is as follows:
While the USSR and even modern Russia would undeniably have been very different without the gulags, us nords faced similar problems in industrialization at the time (though on a smaller scale, as our land area and populations were much smaller), with entire provinces without any infrastructure to speak of. The softer government investments and mass employment projects into civilian industry, consumer production, and welfare were more expensive to complete, but by population managed to keep pace with the USSR and all that extra spending went into strengthening the civilian economy. While the problems faced in industrializing Russia were definitely larger, I think a different political leadership could have mobilized the required workforce and capital from a volunteer population through a combination of rewards, "greater good" propaganda, and patriotic fervor; however, such a move would have required more decentralized and equitable power as well as political investment and clout to the lower-rank workers' unions, which probably wouldn't have been a good base for a Stalinist dictatorship. Maybe in some alternate history, the USSR would instead have become a Russian Socialist Congress with a slightly weaker military than in our timeline by the outbreak of WW2, but a larger more adept labor pool to expand military industry and armed services with during the war, as well as being (able to pretend to be) a freer and more prosperous society in the cold war.
What do you think?
You see... If you are a sane person and leader you simply don't introduce decentralisation policies a few years after the civil war in which several dozens of independent states were been proclaimed within your country. And on a side note. Did Nordic countries face consecutively 2 greatest powers in the world? First bee the greatest military power ag Germans, the second being the greatest economic and naval ag USA/GB alliance.
@@sergeyfromkyiv4531 That is true, we didn't have a civil war and then get bombed into rubble in WW2, which makes a pretty big difference. Rebuilding civil administration and political machinery is a lengthy process, so with the hindsight of knowing when WW2 was going happen I have to agree that such reforms likely wouldn't have been completed in time.
As for the Cold War - yeah, we pretty much did. You see, Sweden and Finland were (are) neutral left-liberal social democracies who refused to bend the knee for the US, which as far as D.C. was concerned made us socialist countries in a strategically vital region; that is, "team red" rather than "team blue". Norway, Denmark, and Iceland were liberated by the allies (never mind that the allies were the first to invade Norway and Iceland to prevent the region from falling to the nazis) after which the US-UK military remained to "help their allies" in efforts that none of those countries ever asked for and that at times more resembled a "soft occupation" than a security contingent. The economic influence and trade is largely parallell to the east bloc countries who were able to openly trade with capitalist powers, we just didn't have the same kind of authoritarian police state, corruption, nor political collapse in the late 80ies.
@@DavidBarkland I read that before the Soviet collapse, the Communist Party of Finland was regularly part of the Governments. Not alone, though. But still. The Soviet Centralized Economy had many aberrations. Regardless the corruption. But I believe these are realities that were part of Russian politics BEFORE. Putin is in office for decades already. Some things are just part of a nation's tradition, and they are hard to dethrone. Centralization and allegiance to hierarchies is one of them, in Russia.
Hi. I'm from Lithuania, I knew a lot of people who were exiled to Siberia. Most of them are dead now. For example neighbours in my family farm, were exiled as teenagers because their parents were teachers. They said they got lucky, they were in fishing gulag and were left with fish gut, heads and tails, so never had to face starvation. But things were grim.
Marko Raimus was also Lithuania
Well, if Stalin would not have shown up, Sovietunion would possibly lost the war against Hitler. But without that pact of Hitler and and Stalin, there would have been possibly no war at all.
It is, what it is.
Stop evil people in time, if you have the chance.
The European philistine outside: "We must be tolerant of refugees......"
The European philistine inside: "It would be good to drive these refugees into the GULAG..."
Stalin's laughter: "Contradictions according to Marx..."
Recent subscriber and love your content and how good of a job you do giving the objective facts. Please keep the videos coming.
My understanding had been that they were labor camps that had variable quality of living and did have actual criminals and fascists, but also people who were pulled in by association.
There is no way to justify having over 20 million people killed underneath the communists in Russia.. this is absolutely bullshit
Tho most of the infrastructure wasn't that useful, many of the projects didn't achieved the level of quality for the intended use. If I remember correctly, the canal didn't work because the lack of machinery it couldn't be deep enough and boats couldn't cross it and similar problems in other projects.
Hello!! perhaps a video that could par well with your gulag videos would be a video a Psikhushka’s i don’t think anyone has even took a look at them!
Yeah, thats super important
Yes, good suggestion! I have never heard of such a place........I mean I knew something like that probably had to exist, but I knew nothing past that assumption.
Psikhushka just means a psychiatric ward, clinic for mentally unstable
@@ontheline3077 we meant the use of psikhushkas to torture and silence dissidents. The saying was that only mentally sick people could hate living in socialist paradise of soviet union.
I saw a video a few days ago that said according to the amount of early deaths, illnesses and depression cases and hellhole conditions in an extremely drab city, Norilsk was the worst city in the world.
It is interesting that the owners of the Norilsk mines and factories exploit what was created under the "bloody Stalin". People without honor and conscience...Moreover, they consider it unprofitable to repair it. Expect news about the increased number of suicides and alcoholism among workers.
@@Shurikova666 Should people abandon the industry just because it originated during the period of unscrupulous leaders?
Great video as always. Tip for future videos text could appear for longer on the screen.
I guess the Cannibal Island was just Stalin doing a bit of a troll
I read in a Brittish Book, completely dedicated to the Soviet Revolution, that Russian Empire, under the last Tsar was so miserable, that most prisoners in Siberian labour camps - yes, they were there before Communism - actually had a lot better and more abundant food there, than they did when they were free. LOLOL.
Very good video as always! And very interesting. I went to Siberia twice for vacation in spring and even if the nature there is beautifull, I am very happy that I wasn't there sâs a prisonner under stalin.
Absolutely great channel! Thank you for so many information 🙂
Love your content man please never stop making videos!
Forced labor was essential for the Soviets to industrialize their nation at a rapid pace, which was essential to compete with the United States on the global stage in terms of power, because the USA wished to maintain their monetary interest in dominating much of the world post-WWII. Gulags were partly a defensive measure that may not have existed if not for living under the constant threat of United States terrorism. We have to remember that the Soviet Union was a largely agrarian society before and immediately following the revolution, with atrocious literacy rates and a horribly low life expectancy. About 40 years later, they put the first human in space and had the largest leap in life expectancy in history. And the more they industrialized to defend against potential US aggression, the more the US viewed them as an enemy worth being aggressive toward. The Cold War brought out the worst in both nations.
To me it sounds like a case of “you’d be amazed how fast you can work with a gun to your head.”
"still four times slower than your free neighbor (looks at you judgmental)"
6:44 the same policy has been applied by the city of Rotterdam during its reconstruction period after the Rotterdam blitz and ww2.
Due to lack of houses large families were deported to former third reich concentration camp Westerbork because their was enough living space for them.
Relatives of the deported had to fight in courtcases for over 60 years just to clarify their reputation that they weren't criminals. Eventually the court decided that post ww2 policy was an criminal act against the people.
This channel is a treasure trove of great videos! Here before you blow up!
Here's a thing:
From perspective of struggling government this is a great thing to do, no denying that. But most people look at it from our own perspective or perspective of our grandparents who might have actually went there, that is why gulags are so outrageous. If I am a politician: heck yeah I'll put those prisoners to work. If I'm a civilian: **** no.
Also don't forget that many people who went to gulags didn't commit much crimes, if any, and they died for it
Why do you think non of them actually committed any crimes tho
@@kucingcat8687 I said many of them, who were just political prisoners and jailed for their views, many were land owners who didn't give up their property. some officers and generals were sent to gulag instead of being shot during Stalin's purge, some of them even were brought back in army during ww2. I don't think these are crimes. Of course many many criminals were sent to gulags as punishment
What's missing from G_lag?
u
Well, while GULAGs were not essential for the economic growth and development of the USSR, what they were usefull for was the SPEED at which the nation was industrializing. The main reason the USSR survived ww2 was it's massive industry that it build up in the 30s. The GULAGs played a major role in that. Were it not for ww2, the GULAGs would have been completely pointless.
Slave labor basically
@@omega0195 They were paid for their work, they were clothed and fed for a few years, not their whole life. This is a labor camp and nothing more, in the United States to this day a huge number of prisoners are involved in agriculture.
That's it. I'm starting a gulag in my backyard. It will solve all my problems.
It seems like you confuse two different topics. Just because it was (probably) necessary doesnt make gulags good. Good can mean multiple things.
I never said gulags are good
@@Setarko in the same vein I never said that you said that they were good
@@thorthewolf8801 Agreed. Saying they were "essential" makes it seem that Russia's hands were tied in committing the atrocities they committed with gulags. In reality you are not forced to commit evil, and evil should never be labeled "essential".
@@madmanswhispers "Evil" is not a historical term. And it makes any historical statement look like a child's babbling.
I mean, what evil is in constructing a factory or a dam? Bad material conditions of prisoners? Sure. But they are objective. And evil is a purely subjective notion.
@@JK-oq9cl What great evil is prevented by killing millions of people in the interests of the state?
It would be too much to ask for in a short video, but to understand the gulags and they problems it would be needed to look into a bigger picture, not just background on industrialization like you did well, but with other things happening at the same time like the purges and internal problems alike, the purges (and the tension before within the soviet structure) led to an enormous conviction of people (thats why probably there was a surplus of convicts like you said) and most of them where convicted even being innocent, and like I said, thats wasnt because of Stalin paranoia but the framework of USSR structure at the time, a good way to understand that is how Stalin reacted to what they done to Rokossovsky, we assume that Stalin was an All-powerfull being that controlled everything in USSR but thats far from reallity.
other thing to be notice is that the penal time convicts would serve under gulags was way shorter than the average of regular prisions in general, if you where deemed guilty and had to serve more than 6 years in gulag you where convicted for some serious shit.
but great video nonetheless :)
Read the gulag archipelago. 6 years was a baby sentence
Do a video on the Americans that Stalin killed
After moving there during the depression since the papers said there was no unemployment in the USSR.
At first they were welcomed as it made the US look bad like Cubans escaping communism did during the Cold War.
There were baseball games and leagues in Moscow.
Later he decided they were all spies and they were killed.
The U S embassy did not help.
Lol owned.
Stalin: 1
Freedom: none
What you saying is propaganda lol
You have earned my subscription. Keep up the good work
cool. please do a video on why the USA has a gulag archipelago today next.
that would be interesting [the US today has more prisoners per capita than any other state].
It has more crime per capita than other developed countries. More criminals will get you more prisoners.
Here's an example. There were 124 homicides in Sweden in 2020. Sweden's population is about 10 million people. The US at approx. 330,000,0000 is 33 times more populous. If Sweden and the US had the same homicides per capita, the US would have recorded in 4,092 in 2020. The actual number was 21,570. This is about 5.3 times more than Sweden. More crimes committed per capita result in more arrests per capita, more prosecutions per capita, and more prisoners per capita. That's how the cookie crumbles.
Eh not really. Conditions wise and labor wise the US doesn’t at all. The labor prisoners did don’t equate to the level of a gulag and the death rate is certainly not as high. Living conditions aren’t nearly as bad.
The comparisons only work in that, larger number of people are in prison and do labor to some degree.
The system is bad tho and deserves rounds of criticisms.
Do average people in Russia know about Gulags in details and are they taught about them in school?
Of course.
It is studied in history lessons as well as in Russian literature lessons.
The works of Solzhenitsin and other authors are part of the school program.
Pretty much the current regime makes everything possible to hype the gulags as much as they can to smear anything communist. You have entire museums, dedicated to gulag camps, often fake. The prison Serpantinka says hi.
They are taught too much. This hysteria over gulags (with totally fake numbers, obviously) is used by fascists and clergymen to push their agenda in schools.
@Vignesh Rajendran GTFO
@Sanctus Paulus Cruelty? Yes. Not denying it. But looking at the rest of the world of that time would present a much more horrible story.
Came here as a result of CRP recommendation :)
@Plant plant yup
Work-labor camps will exist in every Communist/Socialist country as long as they have people who are "unwilling to work". Hitler called such people "useless eaters". Deng Xiaoping knew that China needed State Capitalist reforms otherwise he would have needed work-labor camps to prop up a post-Mao Communist economy.
Long story short, Communism needs an underclass of people contributing more than they take in order for Communism to work, AKA "Slaves". Otherwise the economy dies via corruption and market inefficiencies, like paying people just to maintain employment quotas.
Pretty much.
I remember listening to Gulag Archipelago audiobook while running, and sometimes I was almost crying, it was hard to keep running on my neat little treadmill when I was hearing such horrors. Frankly, I don't remember much of the book, but the feeling of sheer horror and despair will always be connected to this topic. Great video, please keep them coming.
While Solzhenicin is a great writer, he's shit as a chronicler and historian. Archipelago, like a lot if his other creations, is more like a work of fiction based on real events, rather than a scientific study that represents the reality. A lot of the Soviet dissidents, even those, who were in the gulag at the same time as Solzhenicin, critisized him for exaggeration and misrepresentation.
@@md_hyena Thanks for letting me know! I'll look up about these inaccuracies further. Looks like it's especially clear that he fudged the numbers, but the qualitative exaggerations may never be fully revealed. Still, having half of my family sent to Siberia back in the day, my bias is that lots of the stories can be plausible. But of course accuracy would have been the best...
Which version did you listen to?
@@msthing Hi tankie
@@jemmor3382 tankie is an extreme USSR/communism defender/apologist. I don't see, how msthing1313 is a tankie, as they've wrote quite the opposite.
My idea of gulags always came from the "Vorkuta" mission in COD: BO.
Speaking from practicality, not morality. I think the only essential part of the gulags resulted in time. The same economic growth would have still happened, just slower.
If the argument was made that he communist system required the use of forced labor, and motivation through fear to function.. I think we've discovered the real issue.
Why would it have been slower in a market economy that respected human rights? Industrialization in the USA and Britain happened quite rapidly without forced labour in a time when the same technologies were less mature.
@@rwatertree from the state in which they started. In comparison to the continued mixed market economy of the Monarchy. This is speculation of course. But the soviets top priority was industrialization, and economic growth. I doubt a semi capitalist monarchy would have progressed as fast. And of course that growth doesn't excuse the genocidal war crimes committed in its name.
@@rwatertree yes the workers in Britain where treated incredibly humanely during the industrial revolution. Also free markets are well known for respecting human rights- just look at black markets,the freeest of markets- and Hong Kong, where the poor get great housing-sorry I meant cages.
@@Mox1990 And let's not forget on how harsh was India exploited in order to fuel up the industrial revolution.
@@Mox1990 just so we're clear you're comparing working conditions in the early 1800s, with the forced labor camps in the soviet union..?
My understanding, especially after studying the prison system in my home country (the USA), is that honestly the gulags were no worse than any prison system in any country up to that point and even now, most countries have political prisoners, forced labor camps, and incredibly shitty conditions for prisoners, the solution is prison abolition (in its current form at least). Like, let’s be objective, it’s all bad and we should probably all move towards a system focused on reintegration into society and not punishment.
Lol no, the gulak camps were especially bad if you actually look at their conditions
not sure about this one chief
After three months a prisoner at the system of camps near the Kolyma river was an exhausted shell - left to die of exhaustion, a 'gonner'. Read all about it in wikipedia, or the Kolyma Stories by Varlam Shalamov.
"An effective tool or a terrible crime?"
Why not both?
Just imagine : you have labor camp with 100000 workers , but 20k of them have their prison term almost ended . Where to get replacements for these prisoners ? So , state must prolong terms of already imprisoned OR must guaranteed BY ANY MEANS another 20k people could face long enough jail term .
human sins still guarantee never ending replacements in every state where police exists
@@ImPedofinderGeneral but you need people with long prison terms - not 3-6 months , but 4-5 years minimum , and you need them not for one camp
@@edpyasecky2225 well so you need adjust number of camps to crime statistics. I hope they will cancel that project of returning of gulags because it will work for good of people only if organisers are bribe-resistant living saints
Simple answer efficency. Look at great wall of China, what a marvel. Would be impossible to build something like that with ethical labour. Call it a necessary evil at that time for the empire that needed it against Mongols
I wouldnt call it evil. Be a good man and you wouldnt have to go into a gulag at that times.
@@cigarocean HAH sure.
Be a "Good" man in a Amoral state.
What is Good? Comrade dont hurt me
@@greyfriars6540 Millions? Come on. Less than a million.
Gulag itself was not a problem. Justice, on the other hand...
@@MalleusImperiorum there where 2 different gulags. The real gulag for political enemies and the second for criminals. And yes, there were innocent people there too, but the concept is still brilliant.
@Sanctus Paulus No biggie compared to victims of capitalism - for example, much more people died in Hitler's extermination camps. If you say "Muh National SOCIALISM", tell me, who paid for Hitler's campaign? Who profited from privatization and union prohibition? Who produced ovens for death camps? Who produced weapons for the Wehrmacht and SS troops? Who went to Munich in 1938?
Interesting video, comrade. Every thing has two sides and you always need to get to the bottom of it!👍
great video
Adding to your algorithm because you need more subs
Hello setarko this is maybe a irrelevant question but do you think foreigner can enlist in the russian armed forces ?
@@JK-oq9cl i might interested to enlist in russian army
@@JK-oq9cl indonesia
@@The_Deliverer based
@@JK-oq9cl maybe its better to serve in other countrys military rather than my own country
Well, justifying Gulags is pretty darn trivial: Slaves are just absurdly cost effective for their owners. Just look at prison labor in the USA - same principle. Obviously, that only works for low quality semi-unskilled labor if you insist on treating your slaves badly.
Luckily, the evolution from slavery going through serfdom ended at the worker model for now: People have to compete with others on a market sell their labor for money - incentivized not by the wip but by constant existential dread and consumerism propaganda. Way less cruel than gulags - but definitely more pervert.
Also I think developing those parts ensured something to fall back to when it came time for defence in patriotic war
In Bulgaria, aside from the labor camps, we had what was call the Labor Army. Since everyone had to do a mandatory 2 year military service, they put the "untrustworthy" people in labour regiments. You can't gather your dissident friends and overthrow the government if all you have is a shovel. :) They built many large infrastructure projects here and many, many apartment building, all of them of terrible quality. They were always in a hurry because if you finished your project quicker you might gain favour with the party. Thus the saying was - "With all of our strength we will do 5 in 4". Communist bullshit, all of it.
We had same here in Czech republic.
@@mikolasstrajt3874 And Yugoslavia
A true journalist approaches both sides of a topic as unbiasedly as is possible.
You sir, are a true journalist.
Не стыдно тебе Википедию цитировать вместо какой бы то ни было работы с фактами? Или озвучивать популярное мнение безопаснее?
Basically a question of what's more important efficiency or human righta
Katorga must have been really bad if the word has been adopted by the Polish language. The word can mean hard labour or a hard situation.
So sickening to use your own people as slave labor. Even more sickening to know people still worship the guy responsible for it. I am pretty sure, they would have served their time well, if they were put in gulags.
Any prison in the world enslaves people, open your eyes.
Moreover, many people in gulags actually "worshipped" the regime, and knew perfectly well why they were put there.
@@MalleusImperiorum Are you seriously defending slave labour? Yikes
@@Aester I'm not trying to do a "what about.."-ism, but what about the prison-industrial complex in America?
@Олег Широбоков person with tsarist pfp praising Stalin is a bit ironic, one must admit.
@Олег Широбоков what about Lenin?
One question i always have, how many actual criminals(murderes, robbers etc) were in the gulag system?
I see the us since it has a harsh stance on crime it has a prision population of 2,3 million, i see the gulags had something similar numbers of prisioners but the percentage of actual criminals is a mistery
It is really hard to know the actual number. Mostly because political prisoners were not always sent to camps because of " political" articles. But I think it is safe to say that at least around 35% of the prisoners definitely were actual criminals. Maybe more. "Liberal" sources usually quote a figure of 30%. Pro-communist sources usually quote 65-70%. The truth, most likely, is somewhere in the middle, because the data from the archives can be interpreted in different ways, and not everywhere these archives have been preserved.
@@Setarko that's interesting.
You yourself have made it clear that you are on the liberal camp of things, but non the less its good to hear a Russians perspective on this.
Here in the west the picture that is painted of gulags is that they were Joe Stalins personal prisons I had never heard about actual criminal being sent there, but it makes sense since it was a prison. Same with the famines of 30s, you hear alot about the claims of genocide towards ukrianian people, but rare you hear about other nationalities that also suffered.
Anyways good work, you deserve more subs, everyone had their biases but you tried to keep yours as neutral as possible and in this day and age that is very commendable
@@bernardobiritiki there is a youtube channel called Плохой сигнал, that specializes on this topic/ You can probably watch them with translated subs
After the war, most of the political prisoners were those who somehow collaborated with the Nazis.
@@MarMar-nq9ii No. Even soviet soldiers who were taken captive during WW2 were sent to gulag.
The people on the gulags where usually fascists or monarchists, and even some thieves, they didn’t stay usually more than 10 years on the gulags (except the nazis, those guys where expected to die working) even though the conditions where shitty for human beings, at least they built stuff fast, I’m not complaining
Good
Tho... without his gulag injuries Koroljew might have brought the soviets to the moon...
Oh, cut the Perestroika crap, please.
@@MalleusImperiorum what?
@@vermas4654 That "Korolev beaten in gulag" BS comes from Perestroika.
And when some data "suddenly" appears during Perestroika, it's 99.9% sensationalist anti-Soviet BS.
Moreover, Korolev just died too early. What might've really brought the Soviets to the Moon is if the Politburo had decided to let Chelomey Design Bureau lead the project instead of Korolev one.
@@MalleusImperiorum he died because of a deformed jaw he had either from a broken jaw or scurvy. The first from beatings during torture after his arrest and the later from his gulag stay.
@@vermas4654 What? Korolev died during a surgical operation on his intestine. He had cancer. His heart stopped during the operation.
What are you talking about? A broken jaw (even if he had one) isn't lethal.
Greetings comrade
9:43 or rather he wouldn't die due to broken jaw which haven't healed properly. Seriously, some NKVD bastard broke his jaw during "questioning" and it became a problem later in life of Korolev
10:38 who needs big salary when you own everything? Partokrats didn't need to pay for anything. Houses? Owned by government, you can go ahead and live in one issued to you by Party. Cars, goods and services... everything was paid for by government, but only for Partokrats.
Korolev died due to heart complications brought by kidney issues he developed because of the harsh conditions of the gulag he was in what are you on about?
@@softb did he? I heard he died because he couldn't open his jaw properly, so the medic (surgeon maybe, but idk) couldn't put a tube into his mouth and tube was necessary for operation.
Excellent video! Before we judge (and we like to judge) so many factors have to be considered as to why this system existed (I am no fan of it!). One must first look at the time, place and recent history (WW1, civil war, war with other nations) to understand how this could have happened ....
@@JK-oq9cl Stalin was just as evil as Hitler - so no, it wasn't "better" than Nazi rule, in fact it was just as awful under Stalin's inhumane dictatorship as it was under Hitler's inhumane dictatorship. Do you understand what i'm trying to say? - I'm saying that Hitler and Stalin were two of the most evil men of all time, and for you to sit here on youtube, commenting about how much you love/rescpect Stalin is insane. - Stalin is responsible for the death of millions of people - the gulag camps, the Holodomor famine - that Stalin created himself, and all the mass murder Stalin ordered - especially during the great purge - 1937-38 - during those years, Stalin had 681 000 people murdered because he was thinking they might be trying to start a revolution against his regime - he wanted to secure his power so he could continue to "terrorize" the people of the Soviet union.
Stalin was a monster, end of story - everyone that supports him are insane/awful people.
@@soccergod9149 Did you notice the funny little difference between Gulags and German Camps? No? It does seem weird how in German ones your death is pretty much a guarantee.
Hell, most people dont even know just who invented them in the first place: The Brits. Turns out you can do anything to a Colony as long as its Africans.
It doesn't make much sense to treat the gulag as a mere result of circumstance, independent of the beliefs of its creators. The issues that the Soviets tried to address by sending masses of people to the gulag were of their own making. Shortages in housing and consumer goods were a result of expropriating private farms and encouraging urbanization in. The presence of 'subversives' who had to be segregated from the rest of the population was a result of the war with the Whites and suppression of rebellions (e.g. Kronstadt) which were themselves due to the Bolsheviks' support for revolutionary socialism and centralised control of the economy.
they were not prisoners they were men who spoke their mind and did not like and were against the regime they were slaves who often died but were quickly replaced, yes today people work there too but are paid wages they are not slaves, then free labour who would not prosper under those conditions,
Terrible, the cost was also in trust of the government which in modern Russia is at an incredibly low level. You can't even argue that it was necessary for the survival of Russia as Russia was allied with the victors of WW2.
So the gulags made some projects possible - but the same could be said of the British slave trade into the Caribbean.
Imagine creating a video like "Why concentration camps were ESSENTIAL in the Third Reich"
Imagine comparing gulags with 5% mortality rates to german camps with 70% mortality.
@A L P H A _ W A V E The Soviets however did not have any death camps built with the sole purpose of exterminating the undesirables.
@A L P H A _ W A V E Really? Capital punishment compared to death camps? Executing someone for being a mass murderer compared to taking children to gas chambers? Can you please name a European country that did not practice death sentences in the 30's?
Come on US has similar system and they called it Prison Labour in Louisiana
@@MalleusImperiorum 5% percent mortality???? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
R there any Lenin Statues in the GULAG? I'd appreciate if the BOLD would show us some of these. THANKS.
The secret ingredient is ʎɹǝʌɐls
Love your videos. Greetings from Zagreb.
Hello there.
General Kenobi
@@Setarko you are a bold one.
I think about the pain of the gulags quite often. Prisoners not only tired, starving and abused, but that blistering cold. Being out in minimal clothing in -50 celcius temperatures is a form of brutality and cruel that is hard to fathom.
Great videos. Can I offer my opinion?
Explanatory subtitles are right on the youtube red timeline, so when I pause to read them, I can't really see them.
Also the polished steel 3D chapter markers look so....90's
The Nazis also loved prison camps. Anyone who was "an enemy of the state" was put into a camp to work until he either died from guards using him as target practice, some fucked up doctor doing human exams on him, or just plain exhaustion. These were awfully efficient for the Germans though, just as they were for the USSR.
The main differences were that Nazis had a huge supply of foreign enemies to chew through, while the USSR had to use their own citizens. If actual criminals were not in big enough supply as they often were not, anyone who even looked at a portrait of Stalin the wrong way, would be chosen instead, if everyone could cite the communist propaganda religiously, just pick the least efficient worker.
This system was not a solution to criminals, it was a solution to needing brutally exploitable forced labor. And what it really was used for, was not to kickstart a better life for all in the USSR. Most of it went to military needs. Regular people starved and lived in communal housing, or a terrible grey concrete commie block. The profits of terrorizing and enslaving the people were spent so they could parade thousands of tanks around, and threaten to seize more of Europe to terrorize and enslave.
Useful tool *or* crime against humanity? If there's anything I've learned from history it's that it's more often *and*
The concept of crimes against humanity is bizarre, since it's part of human nature to commit crimes against one another. With no remorse, limits or regrets. It's like saying the moon is a crime against the night lol. Like it or not, it's just how it is.
Thor Ragnorok: Slaves. Don’t use the S word.It is prisoners with jobs.
Essentially this is slavery under the state.
1:06 I saw him in a movie. Pretty familiar..
I love the sense of humour
This guy basicly a diamond hide behind many bias russian propaganda,i try to search such a non biased channel and i found this one keep going on making this kind of video,love from indonesia comrade
You should hit up KREOSAN english and become their new narrator, their new one sucks and you'd be a perfect fit.
Your've got to break a few eggs to make an omelet!
Tell that to the eggs!
This is an absurd documentary and skips over just about ALL the human torture. Those canals were dug by hand at gun point. By hand i mean literally by hand. Not enough shovels.
The industrial revolution and it's consequences have been a disaster for humankind.
Seems to me they could have rapidly industrialized without the Gulag system just by paying their 'employees' extra wages. They could easily set up a system where they payed a Script that was only useful in the 'company' stores set up at the workers camps, maybe as an incentive they could do like a 25/75% split between Rubles and Script so people could send some money home do their dependents. Then again, that all sounds kinda capitalistic for the USSR.
Weird thing: the statue of the man and women holding the hammer and sickle has a replica here in Egypt, but instead, they are holding a water mine in the 6th of October city
At least they built stuff that actually helped people instead of US prions where prioners are slaves for corporations
Is it possible that you could talk about the book, "Drawings from the Gulags"?
It's apparently based on true experiences and I was wondering if you could cover it, and prove if any of the drawings actually happened in the Gulag system.
it based on drawings of prison guard who never worked in Gulags itself. He drawed it from prison folklore, google biography of the author pls first. Soljenitsyn is better source
@@ImPedofinderGeneral Im an year late, but both of those sources suck and no one should bother with them.
This is the perfect opportunity for the criminals to pay back for the community.
You're shitting peacefully in your backyard toilet and the bear opens the door.
WWYD
its crazy that you could end up there just by writing poems
"The only problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher
The Soviets knew this all too well. Thus, what better way to supplement the diminishing returns of theft than to introduce a system of slave labor?
that's hilarious, capitalism is the system which runs out of other people's money literally every couple years. what do you think a debt crisis is?
@@cageybee7221 let me guess, this "wasn't real communism".
@@ccnomzindeed,
It wasn't real communism, but it was real socialism and it worked very good.
@@ccnomz The only problem with Thatcherism is that you eventually run out of North Sea Oil money.
The only problem with you is that you are economically illiterate.
@@cageybee7221 Maybe capitalism needs a jubilee.
i love when people try to justify totalitarian governments.
Diabolical.
(I greatly appreciate your videos!)
Did gulag inmates get paid?
They was slave's.
@@user-hn5dp2zs2l then how come this happened? 10:25
@@यतोधर्मःततोजयः that was what it cost the government to keep one slave alive and in working conditions, not the actual salary
@@Intel-i7-9700k oooooooooh.
Thanks mate.
Yes, they get paid.And free healthcare and education. Soljenitsyn himself, "profet" of the anti-communist propaganda, was saved from the brain cancer by prison doctor without paid.
Exept those who was nazi supporter during WWII.
Hi Setarko. Noticed that your channel deals extensively with history from a Russian, and thus, Soviet-influenced perspective. I am wondering perhaps you can do a video on Chernobyl. I am curious to see a Russian's perspective on one of the world's most disastrous nuclear meltdowns.