Im a relatively new linux user, began using arch (btw) a little more than a month ago. Im also using an nvidia GPU and am now running hyprland for the most part. The only thing stopping me from completely junping ship is gaming, particularly fps games like apex or CS since i notice frame drops and micro stutters in them. I just have an i3 config on my machine that i swap to when i wanna play a demanding game. Loving linux so far and im pretty excited for wayland and i can imagine most of my issues being fixed by the end of the year tbh.
You should try out gamescope, it pretty much runs an x server within Wayland optimized for games. Also gives you easy access to features like FSR upscaling for any title
I've tried to use wayland for some time and it was a pain, facing problem after problem. This may be cuz I use a twm and nvidia, but still. After months using wayland I decided to rollback to xorg and it felt so good, everything working fine for me. I know that at some point i'll have to migrate to wayland but its not ready for me rn, I'll stick to xorg for 1 or 2 more years and then I try wayland again
The worse thing that I have experienced using Wayland is that when you drag a window that was maximized to another monitor the image breaks in half and glitches. But all I do is just change the display array slightly, and the put it back. It doesn't happen often, so I'm don't get too stressed about it.
I really like wayland, but I have to roll back to X11 everytime I tried wayland for a while. Things just went crazy and nothing I can do about it. For example, apps via bottle constantly got kil led from background, and non-English IME just can't work properly.
When Wayland crashes, XWayland windows won't survive such crash. That is a huge gap nowadays and nobody seems to be interested in fixing it, as the bug report is dormant since years.
@@tohur It's not comparable. On X11 a compositor is a separate thing, so X11 almost doesn't crash (I don't recall X11 crashes on its own in all 9 years I use Linux), while compositor can do that once in a while. On Wayland, compositor is implementing Wayland, so the possibility to crash it is way higher. That is why, surviving kwin-wayland crash was such a big deal. However, I would expect that XWayland will do that too, but it turns out XWayland apps are gone after such event.
@@ivanp7 LOL, I am using Wayland already for over half of the year. I see no reason to switch to X11, especially that scaling is a lot better, plus nice touchpad gestures, etc.
That seems like a problem with the "monolithic" process of that specific Wayland compositor. Maybe the renderer should be a separate process. If a server crashes, it crashes, it should be more stable and not crash to begin with, that should be doable. (that's not the unix way of doing what barely works instead of engineering a proper solution, I mean, the principle of "worse is better") But just like Windows has its CSRSS which is the actual "desktop" that maintains the state, and the DWM is the renderer/compositor, a good way to solve that problem would be separating the session from teh renderer . The DWM can crash, the GPU can crash and still the system doesn't blue screen and the applications stay running. Another example is the Surface Flinger on Android, it also uses a similar architecture, The Surface Flinger is the part that usually crashes because it is the renderer, and there's another binder (server) that is the desktop and maintains the state of the activities (and its windows), they are two different processes. From the system point of view that's the more correct separation of concerns, from the protocol point of view, the application shouldn't ever need to know how the Wayland "server" ever works, it just ask it to do things. XServer's insanity of being reversed with the "server" being the client and the "client" being the server and the split-brain stupidity of running an application withthe data that's part of the rendering/desktop which shouldn't even be know by the client application stored in the memory of the application, meanwhile the "compositor" doesn't have authority over the data that's clearly related to compositing and rendering, which is nuts. Maybe client applications should have a way to recreate the graphics resources like any game ever does when it switches between fullscreen and windowed, maybe the protocol should require that so the application can in fact survive a server crash. I don't see that problem being able to be solved without the application taking care of rebooting its UI. Whenever there's problems "dormant for years" its because no system wants to be responsible for it. In my opinion the GTK and QT libraries should be responsible for detecting a server crash and ensuring the data-structures are recreated just like an application restart, but without losing the "model", only the "views" are recreated. Meanwhile the protocol should support reconnecting the pipes, meanwhile wayland "servers" should be split into 2 processes so they crash less. Wayland certainly is the correct direction and the problem of crashing will have to be solved, maybe by not being "worse is better" and simply making mutter/kwin more stable. Although separating the renderer process would help them on stability, but the server shouldn't ever crash to begin with. We don't go around programming defensively against the kernel crashing, there's a point to that, proper engineering.
In the end, sooner or later there will be a replacement for wayland, because it already comes with many and even serious design flaws, because more than an organized project they are adding characteristics of improvised design
@@egorandreevich7830 yeah I really don’t know what fundamental issues there are, but besides Wayland is designed to be long lived thanks to it extension and versioning system
Will the replacement for Wayland be before or after the Unix Epoch time switch? Even Xorg was a (fork) replacement of XFree86 which was a replacement for X386 that was derived off of X11R4. ALSA was a replacement for OSS for sound. Things evolve in the Linux world and there's no such thing as perfected code.
Even in proprietary world, changing tech stack is something normal. From DX9 to DX12, ASIO, WASAPI, DirectSound, CLR Form, UWP, and a lot more! The worst is they are running at same time doing mostly the same job
My complain about Wayland is that they removed a feature that to me was useful, especially if we want to see more Linux in enterprise environments: the possibility to launch X applications that are on a remote server and have them render on your local PC. I time to time use this feature in industrial contexts, and I always find it useful.Yes, there is VNC/RDP, but they are less efficient, especially on slow connections, since they will send a video stream, rather X forwarding does only send X drawing commands, and the rendering is done by the client, so even on slow connections it's usable. Other complaints is that Wayland is coupled with Linux. I know that Wayland it's only a protocol, and in theory it can be implemented on all different OS. In practice this interoperability is made difficult for the fact that Wayland compositors are, by implementation, coupled with Linux-specific features, such as DRM. Xorg was more portable, only the driver were really coupled with the OS, but all the other code not (you can run a X server on Windows or macOS, a Wayland compositor is much more difficult!).
If you are running Wayland, you can log in to a remote server and launch an X application on the remote server, and it will display that remote application on your local computer, exactly the same way it did before. Nothing has changed at all. The X application will render in XWayland automatically. If you want to run a *Wayland* application on the remote server, you need to use waypipe, and everything works as you expect. Note that, if you are using X instead of Wayland, this scenario does not work at all (you can't run Wayland applications remotely if you are on X).
@@DavidJao I know, but this kind of work because application still use the old X protocol. Waypipe is not an official tool by Wayland, it's a third party program that needs to be installed from external sources (something you don't want to do, let's say, on a production server). I think that this was an oversight of Wayland to not include networking support natively in the protocol. They focused on performance (that is not bad, if you are on the same machine) but not thought about the case of the application running on another machine. True that this model is maybe obsolete (anyway we have browsers, these days) but still I see an application in case Linux is used in enterprise contexts (where you can have thin clients and applications running on a central server). Also it's something useful to provide technical support, you can just SSH into the computer of who you are assisting and launch GUI applications, rather than having to use tools such as VNC, RDP or AnyDesk. It's also useful for industrial contexts, where you have computer controlling machines and you want to remotely use the application from your office. There were use cases, to me.
@@alerighi you never install third party tools? How do you manage then to run the web browsers that you mention in your comment, given that the Wayland doesn't make any first party web browsers? It's nonsense. ssh isn't a first party Xorg software program either, yet many many people use ssh for X forwarding.
After using both, my conclusion is that they are both way too extreme in their design philosophy. X11 is very centralized, allows applications to do far too many things, and has no restrictions at all, while Wayland is so decentralized that it offloads everything to the compositor and kernel modules almost, and also puts the binders on so much the applications can't do things they need to be able to do easily. Windows and Mac are somewhere in between, and Linux doesn't have anything with a more balanced approach like other major operating systems do... it's stuck with wide-open X11 and paranoid, locked down Wayland, with no reasonable middle ground. This is why I think even if Wayland takes over on Linux, I don't think Linux will ever be the main OS people use over, say, Mac or Windows.
Also anyone remember when snaps where going to take over package management. Just because something is marked as the future doesn't mean it's going to be.
X11 is still superior in the gaming sphere over Wayland. Just more support, less stutters, less crashes that are cataclysmic.. and more. Wayland almost feels it is there but it's still behind.
One thing I really miss on Wayland as of now is unattended (headless) RDP connections like xrdp (at least on KDE). I like Wayland because it actually works when I'm using it on my HiDPI Laptop Screen - especially when I have an external monitor with different scaling connected. I really look forward to the day when remotely logging into a new session with Wayland works!
The developments is bureaucracy, but the final product is good. Xorg is bureaucracy in development and bloatware/security risk as a final product. We can fix the bureaucracy by just requiring all proposals to have a working implementation. So many people bike shedding who don't even know what they are talking about. If you are required to have a minimal viable product before bike shedding all of a sudden bike shedding is expensive and anyone who wants to do it is actively researching the correct solution and build up our knowledge pool of what does and does not work well
Wayland is way more complex than x11 now because of the desktop portal, especially since it has a mandatory dependency on pipewire. To record your screen on x11 you get a reference to a window in 5 lines of x11, with no dependencies. To do the same thing in wayland you need to use dbus + desktop portal + pipewire + 2500 lines of code, and this gives you a linux specific solution. Yeah, the x11 version works on every os including windows and macos with no platform specific code and it's fully hardware accelerated on all platforms
@@jolynele2587you get a point but it doesn't matter if it facilitates the developer's life hours of the day. As little experience I have developing for Linux, I tried developing for Wayland and it's definitely way way more complicated for such simple tasks, especially when you don't know if it's going to work on a Wayland Compositor or break on another.
I have a fully functional machine qith 4GB of ram. Uncountable open tabs at once. The amount of ram used can be misleading, since if there is still space available the system will keep allocating in order to maximize the ammount of data readilly available, but if the memory starts to fill too much the system starts to clean up old stuff more frequently. I'm not saying 4GB is a good amount, but if this is more than enough to keep a desktop running with no problems, 8GB will certainly be ok, unless you run more demanding tasks in your nachine, like video editing/rendering, etc.
For me it is. I used to have both a Minecraft client and a server running along with IntelliJ IDEA and Firefox with tons of tabs open, both on Linux and Windows. No issues, never complained about the lack of RAM, except the times where I wanted to run something RAM-demanding, such as multiple virtual machines.
KDE 6 pushed Wayland as default, but I doubt any of the devs was on NVIDIA because it’s a stuttering, flickering mess! Luckily, other devs are using NVIDIA and are pushing to get it working properly. But you still wonder why this wasn’t addressed earlier.
it seems in the pursuit of simplicity, now everyone has to reimplement a graphics subsystem. wake me when any of them implement a fluid RDP that can move a seat session to a virtual one backed by passive GPU power
Thanks for that info! We urgently need Wayland, as ugently we needed the silly systemd subsystem compared to the good old System V init subsystem with all its easy to handle flatfile configs. But I am open though as long it will ease our live and significantly improve our current day X11 experience. Do all the X apps compiled against xlib needed to be rewritten for Wayland? If so, good luck, that transition will take decades...
Nitpicking I admit but it’s technically called X11 or just X or the X Window System. The X Server is just the component on your machine that takes in your mouse and keyboard input and renders to your screen.
I could use wayland just fine, but the input lag on my graphics tablet is not very pleasant. In X, turning off compositing is enough to make input responsive. I've heard that kwin has features to disable vsync which fixes the input lag, but since I'm using debian stable, I don't have access to these. Maybe in the next release I'll switch since everything else works fine
With intel graphics cards such as the Iris, Wayland is more performant than xOrg in my experience. The only issues I had were mainly to do with window managers breaking as plasma updated to version 6. Although for nvidia graphics cards I would just give up for now 😂
too many systems, especially those with nvidia cards, are extremely unstable on wayland currently. That means either buying new hardware or screwing around with installing X into systems where it isn't preconfigured. As long as it's still in the repos for the major distros it isn't too much of an issue to install and set up, but this still IS too much of an issue to abandon X altogether and leave the users who aren't really tech savvy high and dry. Just have it default to wayland as plasma 6 does now. Until wayland "just works" on the vast majority of systems (it doesn't yet) this current trend is just plain stupid.
Anydesk does not work on wayland, so I am using X11 and I could never tell a difference. I don't care how old the code is, all I need is for it to run well, and it does. It can be the oldest lines of code, I do not care.
I was running x11 until few weeks ago, X11 works fine for daily stuff, but when it comes to gaming it constantly stutters and the resolution setting didn't matter whether I'm using full resolution or fucking 480p... then i switch to wayland, it sucks on full resolution (the fps drops to ±10) , but lower resolution works great, so I game in wayland now lmao..... i am still confused tho considering the game run in xwayland but it perform better than native x11......
Never, no. X11 is limited and "broken" by design, so it won't happen. In one year you can expect Wayland to have no issues at all to the end user, so don't worry.
I've tried both, had a few odd glitches with Wayland, but MAN it was responsive and fast, no more waiting for some odd buttons to pop up. I'm just a sucker for XFCE4 and they're working on Wayland and have most of it done, so I'm on X11 now but as soon as XFCE4 is done, byebye. X11 is just too SLOW. In a year from now I'm sure people will be wondering what the fuss was about and most distros will move to Wayland. When you have to rewrite so much of course there are going to be growing pains, but stuff gets fixed quickly with a lot of eyes on it.
waiting for some odd buttons to pop up? WTF are you talking about? I have been running Linux and using X for over 29 years now and I've NEVER seen anything like what you're describing.
Screenshare, clipboard, and sometimes URL's in applications do not work for me. Not a huge deal but it sucks that I have to have a billion libraries still because of xwayland. Because if the wierd stuff with XDG and pipewire, wayland is gonna evolve into xorg 2.0 only if they don't fix a lot of the little issues OR if developers continue to support wayland, both of which will cause needing more packages, funny things, and manual setup. Also both Wayland and XDG needs better documentation or no one is going to want to develop for wayland. Im tired of googling issues and seeing deprecated things like wl_shell being my only results. Fix docs and add more features that should have been builtin in the first place. As an evangalist though, it is worth it to see htop just display `sway` as apposed to 20 bash things and 20 x and the server also being the compositor (no more compton!)
"Not used any more" - I see Xorg's built-in drawing functions on a daily basis. Steam's update box is a notable example that uses these functions (if you've ever wondered why the font on it looks so weird, that's why). They're actually very useful, because they're a convenient way to quickly get simple text and graphics on the screen in a highly reliable and cross-platform manner, without having to link to something bloated like gtk or qt, or implement your own font renderer, just to render some text and primitives to a window. What harm were the drawing functions in Xorg causing?
I have some flicker with gpu accelerated apps in Hyprland (discord, spotify, vscode, davinci resolve) using proprietary nvidia driver 550, but taking that aside, I think it's time to ditch X and move to something more innovative!
I use 2 monitors. My main monitor is a touchscreen and my 2nd monitor is not. On X11, when touching the screen, the mouse cursor is not mapped to my finger on touch but like 10cm away. And I can't zoom/scroll on webpages in Firefox. On Wayland, the touchscreen just works, and zooming/scrolling on webpages in Firefox works flawlessly. Literally 1984 lol (this has nothing to do with my comment, it's just a joke that X11 was made in 1984 lol)
Xorg is better if you don't have a gpu since it's very stable with a lot of redundacy. A moddern GPU doesn't really handle legacy features of Xorg well.
I always sudo apt purge xwayland first thing on a fresh install for any PC (especially if not for me). That way the login manager doesn't give a Wayland option but you don't have to kill the option if they ever get it to be usable. When coding Wayland warning popups into X11 native apps is no longer "a thing" I'll give it ago. Firefox is the browser telemetry unconscious users on Linux seem to always install (Your "Average" Linux DT user), and that same telemetry says that only 10% are going Wayland vs X11. There will come a day (like InitV to SystemD) when it becomes mainstream by consensus or fork force fed on us... but that day is not today.
I used Mutter Wayland on GNOME 45.4 and 45.5 on Fedora 39 and it was pretty smooth besides the fickering in steam, OBS no window capture fixed with a plugin and no screensharing on Discord that was fixed with a workaround. Fedora 39 KDE was unstable and the compositor crashed after 5mins. I used KWin Wayland with Plasma 6 on Endeavour OS and the experience was much smoother even tho the task bar would glitch out from time to time. Lastly my current setup which is Hyprland on EndeavourOS and this experience has been flawless with the fixes from GNOME Mutter. Steam doesn't glitch out, games look amazing and so does anime and I use Nvidia 550.67 drivers with an RTX 3050 Mobile. Once explicit sync comes to Nvidia I'm never leaving Wayland. So in order from best to worst Wayland experience here's how I would put it: EndeavourOS and Hyprland > EndeavourOS and KDE Plasma 6 > Fedora 39 Workstation > Fedora 39 KDE Spin
IMO Wayland makes everything unnecessarily hard, by demanding the developers to build everything from scratch for each and every project, instead of providing one robust and common API that they can reference and use
There's nothing in the Wayland protocol that precludes someone implementing all of the backend compositor code as a foundation for other projects to build window managers or full DEs on top of like how Xorg works. It's just that no one has done it yet. Wlroots is close, but even using wlroots, it's significantly more difficult to write a Wayland compositor than an X11 wm. Tbh if I wanted to make a Wayland compositor, I'd just fork an existing one, which is what xfce is doing (iirc they're forking wayfire for their Wayland port).
back in 2006 about 18 years ago I installed Compiz with X server. ... and I can confidently say, not only has linux not progressed at all, but has gone backwards, especially with wayland. 2006 Compiz blows away 2024 wayland. Anyhow, Linux is mess. And this comes from someone who has been using and programming on linux since 1997.
i don't thinks, all software switch to wayland 2024 this is just unrealistic and yeah i don't like wayland i try with plasma (btw i use qtile ) plasma wayland just cursor+black screen for me to much work and i give up switch back to xorg maybe one day but notthis year or 2025
I think this is highly misleading. First of all. People who want to stay on X / prefer X - like myself - do not really care if you have compatibility layers / shims like XWayland of pipewire. I use suckless tools and dwm and let me tell you "dwl" and things are NOT AT ALL substitute! Why? Because people who use things like I do are for MINIMALISM. You say wayland is for minimalism, but I find they are highly lacking and not really understanding how to design interfaces for minimalism. For example with wayland it became really cumbersome to create your minimalist window manager - and wlroots is bloated like hell, I would say it is more weighty as a runtime than legacy X server. Yet for making a window manager in wayland, you always need to implement a compositior and a complex interface. This was VERY BAD IDEA in my opinion... Also you oversee the fact that many people who really want a minimal system (again myself included) turn off X composition totally. In case of wayland, you NEED to have a compositor and its part of the system architecture - by definition this means you cannot have a simpler and more lean architecture. Also think about all the legacy "not as much used" X codes... Yes they are in the codebase, but does not really take part of the runtime costs in a minimalist X setup because they go unused. With a minimalist X+dwm setup, using manual startx at boot my system eats 54 megs of ram on an empty desktop + there is no compositioning extra cost (and I do not care that this way vsync is per-app setup - I actually like it that way for performance). Can you do the same with wayland? No? Well... Also because of people at wayland have LITERALLY NO IDEA about real minimalism, I highly fear their system will blow and grow out into a beast of complexity much faster than it was for X - but they being nex-gen people having less clue for performance. So my hopes are not that high to be honest. Keep in mind that X became this huge through DECADES of work. Also people at wayland seem to have the "second system effect" in their design: that is instead of designing for what is good design, they focus too much on "okay what NOT to follow from X" and that is the basis of their architecture. This is known in the software industry and often leads to systems that first look good on paper then overlook heavy design flaws. I consider the overly thin API and overly complex time spent on window managers such a flaw - for which wlroots is a not well designed "quickfix" and let me tell you because its the "most complete" thing, it will be put in concrete as is people who use different things will be less compatible, but this wlroots becomes "the product that was quickfix prototype originally only". This sounds awful. Plus wayland removes proper network transparency - I have used it and no: "remote desktop" like things are NOT a substitute. Should have kept that, but this is among the smaller issues. What they should have done instead? They should have just made something more akin to Xorg, but without the font rendering things. Okay lets say you do not want network transparency, still I would have made it otherwise more like Xorg and generally design it more minimalist. Also mandating that you NEED to do composition (and lose performance) is really bad idea and they have no idea about minimalism so should have had some suckless org people helping them desiging real minimalist stuff. Also they really did not think through how big breach this creates in driver support (yes you can blame nvidia - but come on: we all knew in advance so they should have been more prepared). ^^We would already been using X2 or whatever they would call this instead of wayland at this point.... come on... their design really takes 12+ years and incomplete: don't say it is a good design. What will happen? I think at least 10 more years naked Xorg still will be around with maintainers. Around 15 years from now on, people will really do suckless wlroots that actually works well (because finally things stabilize enough that it is possible without bugs) - until that people like me will tell you: do not use wayland yet and that it is suckful. How wayland will look at this point? If we are lucky not an overbloated codebase, but I suspect a lot of bloat will get added already so probably it will be looking already like half Xorg at that point...
@@alexjoel1602 DRM is mainlined to Linux kernel 2.3 or 2.4... In any ways it was surely existing at 2.6 but it was already in huge use at that point... I know it is a running meme that "wayland is now becoming old but still many prefer X" but its not THAT old so that you can claim drm came thanks to wayland lol ;-) And its not about "developing things" but as a user literally not wanting composition AT ALL because it is just unnecessary overhead. So in that wayland makes you need to use it sorry...
Thanks for clarification that DRM was created before Wayland. DRM Atomic was created after. Anyway, DRM can be used in case when low latency and power consumption needed. But writing DRM client is harder than Wayland client, unless windowing library used. So fullscreen Wayland compositor, like Cage, or Gamescope can be used. They have advantages over x11 by having better vsync, lower latency, scaling, other features. In wayland server it is possible to make programs draw directly to scanout buffer. Unlike x11 where some clients can't work normally without compositing and window manager, in wayland features remain same. Also, modern GPUs are fast enough to do that compositing in less than ms, and wayland does it better.
@@alexjoel1602 > DRM can be used in case when low latency and power consumption needed. But writing DRM client is harder than Wayland client, You seem to go around and around in your copium that "you can write apps that use DRM - yes you can, but as a USER (not a developer, but a user of a system) in case of X you can globally turn off compositing. > They have advantages over x11 by having better vsync, lower latency, scaling, other features. Really? - When it comes to vsync it is basically compositing VS not compositing (or not properly / skill issue). - lower latency? Maybe for an overbloated system with compositing on and fancy features - but to be honest not really because of wayland. Then go try going nvidia for much worse latency. Also latency is generally worse on wayland when screen capturing.... Latency in case of input is also worse compared to a properly set up minimalist system. - Scaling: I don't know because I don't care 🙂 Maybe better. Instead of that, the real benefit is: - better security in wayland (keyloggers anyone?) - Being able to throw away ages old codebases - Removal of glyph drawing legacy stuff - Some would consider removal of network-transparency as pro (for me a net negative and "virtual desktop access via streaming" is not a substitute to be honest... but for some use cases and users might be considered plus / arguable. But in meantime they totally fucked up being able to create any minimal window manager. The compositor libraries they have are already bloatware and did not need decades for it to become bloated (X at least had this excuse), generally developers have no idea about minimalism and good architectures and architecture design is basically just driven by "let it be not like X" which is not enough for good architecture. It is sad, because it could have been much more successful with just a little more care... its a miracle people defend this mess. > Also, modern GPUs are fast enough to do that compositing Right there the philosophy that makes me fully turn off by wayland. Especially that I do performance oriented programming... Its like people who did not really care collected and made this pile of shit as architecture... It really would have been not much-much more effort to do it "proper". In any ways... I will keep using X as long as possible or wayland start to really suck less and be less bloatware as it is now. I imagine that takes like 5-10 more years. If X really stops working in that time period, I might even consider looking into how to fix and keep X working.... My point is, that it would have been actually not that hard to not piss off a lot of people like me just by thinking a bit more before randomly doing architecture...
@@u9vata> Right there the philosophy that makes me fully turn off by wayland. Especially that I do performance oriented programming... Its like people who did not really care collected and made this pile of shit as architecture... It really would have been not much-much more effort to do it "proper". Yep, instant red flag that the people developing the software don't care about the user experience, user hardware resources, or just the user in general. What is the point of developing a piece of software if you fundamentally do not care about the people that will actually use it? Sadly, this appears to be the norm for nearly ALL software today. I truly hope computation stops progessing solely so that these people lose their jobs/their code stops being accepted in open source projects. That may sound harsh and unreasonable, but their lazy, inconsiderate, and selfish ideas of what makes a software engineer is quite literally destroying the fucking planet. You buy a $2000 computer, and within 5 years it is unusable. Not because software has gotten orders of magnitude more advanced and capable, like in the early days of software/hardware development, but because these monkeys turn everything they touch into slow buggy barely functioning abominations. You shouldn't need 10 TFLOPS of FP32 compute to run a fucking operating system at idle.
Wayland also fails on this regard by it's reliance on portals that to my knowledge are not audited and also the particular implementation details of the compositor you happen to be using. If you look at a competent secirity model like what MacOS does you see a full security permission API that handles what any given program can or can't do like for example record the keyboard.
I use arch and kde 6 automatically used wayland. i had multiple issues with discord (screen share broken), firefox (emacs on text selection) and mozc (japanese keyboard) and i only was able to solve mozc. i decided to switch back to x11.
all those "the future" things end up being more garbage than the things they're trying to raplace. Pipewire has that annoying pop/crack that you have to remove and on previous versions i wasnt even being able to set it up, while pulse just works. Wayland doesnt even work with my nvidia card. Same goes to those anti systemd guys. I gave a chance to artix and it was basically just a worse version of arch. The keyrings broke all the time, i couldnt find information about certain issues and the boot wasnt even that faster, and you still need to download some of the systemd stuff anyway. Not to mention how cringe and soyful those software apologists are. I watched a interview with one of the wayland devs and i just couldnt. The guy sounded like a femboy mixed with the "akshually" nerd. I also heard many people saying things are more complicated on wayland. So why even use that crap when X works without issues? Just to suffer?
I've run BOTH on most of my distros and CAN"T tell the difference... but then, I don't mess with gaming- never got into that crap...(not knocking it for anyone else- I just don't care for it).. but if that's the only way to tell the difference-- who needs it?
Could you add links to the articles and videos you've referenced in your video? :)
Im a relatively new linux user, began using arch (btw) a little more than a month ago. Im also using an nvidia GPU and am now running hyprland for the most part. The only thing stopping me from completely junping ship is gaming, particularly fps games like apex or CS since i notice frame drops and micro stutters in them. I just have an i3 config on my machine that i swap to when i wanna play a demanding game.
Loving linux so far and im pretty excited for wayland and i can imagine most of my issues being fixed by the end of the year tbh.
You should try out gamescope, it pretty much runs an x server within Wayland optimized for games. Also gives you easy access to features like FSR upscaling for any title
@@thefunbuns1 i did hear it get mentioned, ill try it out thanks!
If you are gaming nouveau will suck HARD forcing you to use x11 if you decide to get the proprietary drivers
Nvidia never be good for open source, consider choose red team (AMD/Radeon) on next spending
@@KangJangkrikExcept if you want HDMI 2.1 unfortunately... I also wanted to switch to team Red, but this was a showstopper for me
amazing video bro, keep it coming
I've tried to use wayland for some time and it was a pain, facing problem after problem. This may be cuz I use a twm and nvidia, but still. After months using wayland I decided to rollback to xorg and it felt so good, everything working fine for me. I know that at some point i'll have to migrate to wayland but its not ready for me rn, I'll stick to xorg for 1 or 2 more years and then I try wayland again
I've heard it's because nvidia doesn't support wayland as of yet. So it's most likely that.
buy a amd gpu when you back
The worse thing that I have experienced using Wayland is that when you drag a window that was maximized to another monitor the image breaks in half and glitches. But all I do is just change the display array slightly, and the put it back. It doesn't happen often, so I'm don't get too stressed about it.
report a bug maybe ?
I’m sticking to xorg for life that part doesn’t need any improvements for me.
I really like wayland, but I have to roll back to X11 everytime I tried wayland for a while. Things just went crazy and nothing I can do about it. For example, apps via bottle constantly got kil led from background, and non-English IME just can't work properly.
Great videos, learned a lot!
You only have two vids, but both are awesome! Keep going with the great work :D
When Wayland crashes, XWayland windows won't survive such crash. That is a huge gap nowadays and nobody seems to be interested in fixing it, as the bug report is dormant since years.
When X crashes NOTHING survives.. on KDE wayland everything survives thanks to their crash handling under wayland
@@tohur It's not comparable. On X11 a compositor is a separate thing, so X11 almost doesn't crash (I don't recall X11 crashes on its own in all 9 years I use Linux), while compositor can do that once in a while. On Wayland, compositor is implementing Wayland, so the possibility to crash it is way higher. That is why, surviving kwin-wayland crash was such a big deal. However, I would expect that XWayland will do that too, but it turns out XWayland apps are gone after such event.
the bosses say it doesn't matter, you WILL accept Wayland anyway
@@ivanp7 LOL, I am using Wayland already for over half of the year. I see no reason to switch to X11, especially that scaling is a lot better, plus nice touchpad gestures, etc.
That seems like a problem with the "monolithic" process of that specific Wayland compositor.
Maybe the renderer should be a separate process. If a server crashes, it crashes, it should be more stable and not crash to begin with, that should be doable. (that's not the unix way of doing what barely works instead of engineering a proper solution, I mean, the principle of "worse is better")
But just like Windows has its CSRSS which is the actual "desktop" that maintains the state, and the DWM is the renderer/compositor, a good way to solve that problem would be separating the session from teh renderer . The DWM can crash, the GPU can crash and still the system doesn't blue screen and the applications stay running.
Another example is the Surface Flinger on Android, it also uses a similar architecture, The Surface Flinger is the part that usually crashes because it is the renderer, and there's another binder (server) that is the desktop and maintains the state of the activities (and its windows), they are two different processes.
From the system point of view that's the more correct separation of concerns, from the protocol point of view, the application shouldn't ever need to know how the Wayland "server" ever works, it just ask it to do things.
XServer's insanity of being reversed with the "server" being the client and the "client" being the server and the split-brain stupidity of running an application withthe data that's part of the rendering/desktop which shouldn't even be know by the client application stored in the memory of the application, meanwhile the "compositor" doesn't have authority over the data that's clearly related to compositing and rendering, which is nuts.
Maybe client applications should have a way to recreate the graphics resources like any game ever does when it switches between fullscreen and windowed, maybe the protocol should require that so the application can in fact survive a server crash. I don't see that problem being able to be solved without the application taking care of rebooting its UI.
Whenever there's problems "dormant for years" its because no system wants to be responsible for it.
In my opinion the GTK and QT libraries should be responsible for detecting a server crash and ensuring the data-structures are recreated just like an application restart, but without losing the "model", only the "views" are recreated. Meanwhile the protocol should support reconnecting the pipes, meanwhile wayland "servers" should be split into 2 processes so they crash less.
Wayland certainly is the correct direction and the problem of crashing will have to be solved, maybe by not being "worse is better" and simply making mutter/kwin more stable. Although separating the renderer process would help them on stability, but the server shouldn't ever crash to begin with.
We don't go around programming defensively against the kernel crashing, there's a point to that, proper engineering.
In the end, sooner or later there will be a replacement for wayland, because it already comes with many and even serious design flaws, because more than an organized project they are adding characteristics of improvised design
What kind of design flaws?
@@egorandreevich7830 You know, Google is free to use. There are like millions of sites with millions of issues.
@@egorandreevich7830 yeah I really don’t know what fundamental issues there are, but besides Wayland is designed to be long lived thanks to it extension and versioning system
Will the replacement for Wayland be before or after the Unix Epoch time switch? Even Xorg was a (fork) replacement of XFree86 which was a replacement for X386 that was derived off of X11R4. ALSA was a replacement for OSS for sound. Things evolve in the Linux world and there's no such thing as perfected code.
Even in proprietary world, changing tech stack is something normal. From DX9 to DX12, ASIO, WASAPI, DirectSound, CLR Form, UWP, and a lot more! The worst is they are running at same time doing mostly the same job
I would love trying out wayland, unfortunately I cannot, my computer keeps freezing whenever I try to launch a wayland session
My complain about Wayland is that they removed a feature that to me was useful, especially if we want to see more Linux in enterprise environments: the possibility to launch X applications that are on a remote server and have them render on your local PC.
I time to time use this feature in industrial contexts, and I always find it useful.Yes, there is VNC/RDP, but they are less efficient, especially on slow connections, since they will send a video stream, rather X forwarding does only send X drawing commands, and the rendering is done by the client, so even on slow connections it's usable.
Other complaints is that Wayland is coupled with Linux. I know that Wayland it's only a protocol, and in theory it can be implemented on all different OS. In practice this interoperability is made difficult for the fact that Wayland compositors are, by implementation, coupled with Linux-specific features, such as DRM. Xorg was more portable, only the driver were really coupled with the OS, but all the other code not (you can run a X server on Windows or macOS, a Wayland compositor is much more difficult!).
If you are running Wayland, you can log in to a remote server and launch an X application on the remote server, and it will display that remote application on your local computer, exactly the same way it did before. Nothing has changed at all. The X application will render in XWayland automatically.
If you want to run a *Wayland* application on the remote server, you need to use waypipe, and everything works as you expect. Note that, if you are using X instead of Wayland, this scenario does not work at all (you can't run Wayland applications remotely if you are on X).
@@DavidJao I know, but this kind of work because application still use the old X protocol. Waypipe is not an official tool by Wayland, it's a third party program that needs to be installed from external sources (something you don't want to do, let's say, on a production server).
I think that this was an oversight of Wayland to not include networking support natively in the protocol. They focused on performance (that is not bad, if you are on the same machine) but not thought about the case of the application running on another machine.
True that this model is maybe obsolete (anyway we have browsers, these days) but still I see an application in case Linux is used in enterprise contexts (where you can have thin clients and applications running on a central server). Also it's something useful to provide technical support, you can just SSH into the computer of who you are assisting and launch GUI applications, rather than having to use tools such as VNC, RDP or AnyDesk. It's also useful for industrial contexts, where you have computer controlling machines and you want to remotely use the application from your office. There were use cases, to me.
@@alerighi you never install third party tools? How do you manage then to run the web browsers that you mention in your comment, given that the Wayland doesn't make any first party web browsers? It's nonsense. ssh isn't a first party Xorg software program either, yet many many people use ssh for X forwarding.
After using both, my conclusion is that they are both way too extreme in their design philosophy. X11 is very centralized, allows applications to do far too many things, and has no restrictions at all, while Wayland is so decentralized that it offloads everything to the compositor and kernel modules almost, and also puts the binders on so much the applications can't do things they need to be able to do easily. Windows and Mac are somewhere in between, and Linux doesn't have anything with a more balanced approach like other major operating systems do... it's stuck with wide-open X11 and paranoid, locked down Wayland, with no reasonable middle ground. This is why I think even if Wayland takes over on Linux, I don't think Linux will ever be the main OS people use over, say, Mac or Windows.
Also anyone remember when snaps where going to take over package management. Just because something is marked as the future doesn't mean it's going to be.
Great video once again
Wayland is 100% the future!
Not when it causes bugs constantly it's not
@@supertigerroadtrip5193 Honestly, I have had more bugs on X than on Wayland.
@oglothenerd it’s good to see the optimism
@@oldturtle000 Yeah, it is also just the first time I actually enjoyed using a tiler. Picom is terrible.
Wayland is the future that I won't participate in.
X11 is still superior in the gaming sphere over Wayland. Just more support, less stutters, less crashes that are cataclysmic.. and more. Wayland almost feels it is there but it's still behind.
I prefer wayland
Yeah under nvidia this is true. Since I switched to AMD wayland has been nothing but butter smooth.
X11 multimonitor is dysfunctional
I need something that works at my job or I'll get fired. xorg is old but it works, wayland doesn't.
One thing I really miss on Wayland as of now is unattended (headless) RDP connections like xrdp (at least on KDE). I like Wayland because it actually works when I'm using it on my HiDPI Laptop Screen - especially when I have an external monitor with different scaling connected. I really look forward to the day when remotely logging into a new session with Wayland works!
I think Wayland will eventualy surpass xorg but right now its just a headache. Maybe in a year or two wayland will be in a better stage of development
Wayland is already old
Sadly, Wayland has not simplified anything. It's bureaucracy nightmare.
The developments is bureaucracy, but the final product is good. Xorg is bureaucracy in development and bloatware/security risk as a final product. We can fix the bureaucracy by just requiring all proposals to have a working implementation. So many people bike shedding who don't even know what they are talking about. If you are required to have a minimal viable product before bike shedding all of a sudden bike shedding is expensive and anyone who wants to do it is actively researching the correct solution and build up our knowledge pool of what does and does not work well
When I was on my nvidia gpu it was indeed a nightmare. Now that I’m on an AMD gpu it’s just perfect.
I don't think it's fair at all to say "wayland just hasn't ported XYZ yet", Wayland is from 2008.
Good info- and I can finally understand why Wayland is wanted... THANKS.
Wayland is way more complex than x11 now because of the desktop portal, especially since it has a mandatory dependency on pipewire. To record your screen on x11 you get a reference to a window in 5 lines of x11, with no dependencies. To do the same thing in wayland you need to use dbus + desktop portal + pipewire + 2500 lines of code, and this gives you a linux specific solution. Yeah, the x11 version works on every os including windows and macos with no platform specific code and it's fully hardware accelerated on all platforms
Yeah, after X11 loads all his thousands of lines of legacy code and unsafe code, yeah, THEN could be 5 lines... Maybe!
5 lines of x which is an abstraction of hundred and thousands of lines?
@@jolynele2587you get a point but it doesn't matter if it facilitates the developer's life hours of the day. As little experience I have developing for Linux, I tried developing for Wayland and it's definitely way way more complicated for such simple tasks, especially when you don't know if it's going to work on a Wayland Compositor or break on another.
Wayland fixes problems no one has and causes problems everyone has.
Fractional scaling says otherwise.
@@haniffaris8917 Thats a gtk/qt problem. Xorg doesn't prevent programs from supporting monitor dependent scaling.
Hi, Can you tell me is 8gb ram manageable for you?
I use gnome and firefox and usually my total ram is 8-9 gb on 8 - 9 tabs.
I use zswap with ram.
I have a fully functional machine qith 4GB of ram. Uncountable open tabs at once.
The amount of ram used can be misleading, since if there is still space available the system will keep allocating in order to maximize the ammount of data readilly available, but if the memory starts to fill too much the system starts to clean up old stuff more frequently.
I'm not saying 4GB is a good amount, but if this is more than enough to keep a desktop running with no problems, 8GB will certainly be ok, unless you run more demanding tasks in your nachine, like video editing/rendering, etc.
Thanks
Any custom ram config you use ?
For me it is. I used to have both a Minecraft client and a server running along with IntelliJ IDEA and Firefox with tons of tabs open, both on Linux and Windows. No issues, never complained about the lack of RAM, except the times where I wanted to run something RAM-demanding, such as multiple virtual machines.
I can't wait for screen sharing, I don't use Linux on my desktops but do in VMs and servers and I have to remote into them.
KDE 6 pushed Wayland as default, but I doubt any of the devs was on NVIDIA because it’s a stuttering, flickering mess! Luckily, other devs are using NVIDIA and are pushing to get it working properly. But you still wonder why this wasn’t addressed earlier.
it seems in the pursuit of simplicity, now everyone has to reimplement a graphics subsystem. wake me when any of them implement a fluid RDP that can move a seat session to a virtual one backed by passive GPU power
Thanks for that info! We urgently need Wayland, as ugently we needed the silly systemd subsystem compared to the good old System V init subsystem with all its easy to handle flatfile configs. But I am open though as long it will ease our live and significantly improve our current day X11 experience. Do all the X apps compiled against xlib needed to be rewritten for Wayland? If so, good luck, that transition will take decades...
Wow thank you 😊
Xorg is only 20 years old?? I thought that's about how old Wayland is
X is older than linux
@@fatorangecat21 and X was designed for V system and UNIX
I wish I had a smooth transition to Wayland but I have Nvidia gpu and Intel cpu on my laptop 😢
Hey, whats the music name at 3:10 ?
LAKEY INSPIRED - Better Days
Wayland is still unusable as a replacement this year. We'll try again 2025.
Depends on Hardware. My Lenovo laptop runs fine with Wayland, but my PC (+Nvidia) freaks out!
Excellent video.
Maybe improve Mic quality?
I use Wayland in Fedora and there are no issues at all. Of course, I am using an AMD GPU, so the display is smooth and good.
Nitpicking I admit but it’s technically called X11 or just X or the X Window System. The X Server is just the component on your machine that takes in your mouse and keyboard input and renders to your screen.
I could use wayland just fine, but the input lag on my graphics tablet is not very pleasant. In X, turning off compositing is enough to make input responsive. I've heard that kwin has features to disable vsync which fixes the input lag, but since I'm using debian stable, I don't have access to these.
Maybe in the next release I'll switch since everything else works fine
Попался, русский хакер. Это правильно, что ты делаешь видосики не только под ру-сообщество. Успехов во всех начинаниях!
Just give me access to the frame buffer.
With intel graphics cards such as the Iris, Wayland is more performant than xOrg in my experience. The only issues I had were mainly to do with window managers breaking as plasma updated to version 6. Although for nvidia graphics cards I would just give up for now 😂
too many systems, especially those with nvidia cards, are extremely unstable on wayland currently. That means either buying new hardware or screwing around with installing X into systems where it isn't preconfigured. As long as it's still in the repos for the major distros it isn't too much of an issue to install and set up, but this still IS too much of an issue to abandon X altogether and leave the users who aren't really tech savvy high and dry. Just have it default to wayland as plasma 6 does now. Until wayland "just works" on the vast majority of systems (it doesn't yet) this current trend is just plain stupid.
Anydesk does not work on wayland, so I am using X11 and I could never tell a difference. I don't care how old the code is, all I need is for it to run well, and it does. It can be the oldest lines of code, I do not care.
Frankly, what you just wrote, ie. Usability, is where ALL the 'technical merit' of wayland falls short.
I was running x11 until few weeks ago, X11 works fine for daily stuff, but when it comes to gaming it constantly stutters and the resolution setting didn't matter whether I'm using full resolution or fucking 480p... then i switch to wayland, it sucks on full resolution (the fps drops to ±10) , but lower resolution works great, so I game in wayland now lmao..... i am still confused tho considering the game run in xwayland but it perform better than native x11......
Will there ever be support for HDR or VRR for X11?
They've kinda stopped committing to it over the years so I doubt anything major's coming.
When wayland definitely fails, yeah.
Never, no. X11 is limited and "broken" by design, so it won't happen. In one year you can expect Wayland to have no issues at all to the end user, so don't worry.
@@draftofspasiba2 yo mamma is broken by design
can you add timestamps
I've tried both, had a few odd glitches with Wayland, but MAN it was responsive and fast, no more waiting for some odd buttons to pop up. I'm just a sucker for XFCE4 and they're working on Wayland and have most of it done, so I'm on X11 now but as soon as XFCE4 is done, byebye. X11 is just too SLOW. In a year from now I'm sure people will be wondering what the fuss was about and most distros will move to Wayland. When you have to rewrite so much of course there are going to be growing pains, but stuff gets fixed quickly with a lot of eyes on it.
waiting for some odd buttons to pop up? WTF are you talking about? I have been running Linux and using X for over 29 years now and I've NEVER seen anything like what you're describing.
Screenshare, clipboard, and sometimes URL's in applications do not work for me. Not a huge deal but it sucks that I have to have a billion libraries still because of xwayland. Because if the wierd stuff with XDG and pipewire, wayland is gonna evolve into xorg 2.0 only if they don't fix a lot of the little issues OR if developers continue to support wayland, both of which will cause needing more packages, funny things, and manual setup. Also both Wayland and XDG needs better documentation or no one is going to want to develop for wayland. Im tired of googling issues and seeing deprecated things like wl_shell being my only results.
Fix docs and add more features that should have been builtin in the first place.
As an evangalist though, it is worth it to see htop just display `sway` as apposed to 20 bash things and 20 x and the server also being the compositor (no more compton!)
а вы человек культуры, однако)
As soon as I heard the words 'hit topic' I left.
"Not used any more" - I see Xorg's built-in drawing functions on a daily basis. Steam's update box is a notable example that uses these functions (if you've ever wondered why the font on it looks so weird, that's why). They're actually very useful, because they're a convenient way to quickly get simple text and graphics on the screen in a highly reliable and cross-platform manner, without having to link to something bloated like gtk or qt, or implement your own font renderer, just to render some text and primitives to a window. What harm were the drawing functions in Xorg causing?
I have some flicker with gpu accelerated apps in Hyprland (discord, spotify, vscode, davinci resolve) using proprietary nvidia driver 550, but taking that aside, I think it's time to ditch X and move to something more innovative!
I use 2 monitors. My main monitor is a touchscreen and my 2nd monitor is not.
On X11, when touching the screen, the mouse cursor is not mapped to my finger on touch but like 10cm away. And I can't zoom/scroll on webpages in Firefox.
On Wayland, the touchscreen just works, and zooming/scrolling on webpages in Firefox works flawlessly.
Literally 1984 lol (this has nothing to do with my comment, it's just a joke that X11 was made in 1984 lol)
Pretty sure you need to calibrate touch screens if you are using X11.
All I know is, multiple monitors on Fedora 40 KDE is ****ed.
Xorg is better if you don't have a gpu since it's very stable with a lot of redundacy. A moddern GPU doesn't really handle legacy features of Xorg well.
I always sudo apt purge xwayland first thing on a fresh install for any PC (especially if not for me). That way the login manager doesn't give a Wayland option but you don't have to kill the option if they ever get it to be usable. When coding Wayland warning popups into X11 native apps is no longer "a thing" I'll give it ago. Firefox is the browser telemetry unconscious users on Linux seem to always install (Your "Average" Linux DT user), and that same telemetry says that only 10% are going Wayland vs X11. There will come a day (like InitV to SystemD) when it becomes mainstream by consensus or fork force fed on us... but that day is not today.
I used Mutter Wayland on GNOME 45.4 and 45.5 on Fedora 39 and it was pretty smooth besides the fickering in steam, OBS no window capture fixed with a plugin and no screensharing on Discord that was fixed with a workaround. Fedora 39 KDE was unstable and the compositor crashed after 5mins. I used KWin Wayland with Plasma 6 on Endeavour OS and the experience was much smoother even tho the task bar would glitch out from time to time. Lastly my current setup which is Hyprland on EndeavourOS and this experience has been flawless with the fixes from GNOME Mutter. Steam doesn't glitch out, games look amazing and so does anime and I use Nvidia 550.67 drivers with an RTX 3050 Mobile. Once explicit sync comes to Nvidia I'm never leaving Wayland. So in order from best to worst Wayland experience here's how I would put it: EndeavourOS and Hyprland > EndeavourOS and KDE Plasma 6 > Fedora 39 Workstation > Fedora 39 KDE Spin
Ok, ok, ok, I'll subscribe. 🙂
Real, Gurus use fvwm. 😅
IMO Wayland makes everything unnecessarily hard, by demanding the developers to build everything from scratch for each and every project, instead of providing one robust and common API that they can reference and use
There's nothing in the Wayland protocol that precludes someone implementing all of the backend compositor code as a foundation for other projects to build window managers or full DEs on top of like how Xorg works. It's just that no one has done it yet.
Wlroots is close, but even using wlroots, it's significantly more difficult to write a Wayland compositor than an X11 wm. Tbh if I wanted to make a Wayland compositor, I'd just fork an existing one, which is what xfce is doing (iirc they're forking wayfire for their Wayland port).
Also Arcan exists, for which writing WM is easier than for x11.
@@gh0stcassette I think it's cinnamon that's doing that
nice
wayland vs A12 whats wrong with WAYLAND in 2026
Why not just work on X11?
But! But! Muh mordern featurez!1!!1!
Wayland sucks tbh idk why it lags a lot but x11 runs buttery smooth
back in 2006 about 18 years ago I installed Compiz with X server. ... and I can confidently say, not only has linux not progressed at all, but has gone backwards, especially with wayland. 2006 Compiz blows away 2024 wayland. Anyhow, Linux is mess. And this comes from someone who has been using and programming on linux since 1997.
I love wayland
Wayland vs Utani.
Not real
i don't thinks, all software switch to wayland 2024 this is just unrealistic and
yeah i don't like wayland i try with plasma (btw i use qtile ) plasma wayland just cursor+black screen for me to much work and i give up switch back to xorg
maybe one day but notthis year or 2025
oh, you're from england
I think this is highly misleading. First of all. People who want to stay on X / prefer X - like myself - do not really care if you have compatibility layers / shims like XWayland of pipewire. I use suckless tools and dwm and let me tell you "dwl" and things are NOT AT ALL substitute!
Why? Because people who use things like I do are for MINIMALISM. You say wayland is for minimalism, but I find they are highly lacking and not really understanding how to design interfaces for minimalism. For example with wayland it became really cumbersome to create your minimalist window manager - and wlroots is bloated like hell, I would say it is more weighty as a runtime than legacy X server. Yet for making a window manager in wayland, you always need to implement a compositior and a complex interface. This was VERY BAD IDEA in my opinion...
Also you oversee the fact that many people who really want a minimal system (again myself included) turn off X composition totally. In case of wayland, you NEED to have a compositor and its part of the system architecture - by definition this means you cannot have a simpler and more lean architecture.
Also think about all the legacy "not as much used" X codes... Yes they are in the codebase, but does not really take part of the runtime costs in a minimalist X setup because they go unused. With a minimalist X+dwm setup, using manual startx at boot my system eats 54 megs of ram on an empty desktop + there is no compositioning extra cost (and I do not care that this way vsync is per-app setup - I actually like it that way for performance). Can you do the same with wayland? No? Well...
Also because of people at wayland have LITERALLY NO IDEA about real minimalism, I highly fear their system will blow and grow out into a beast of complexity much faster than it was for X - but they being nex-gen people having less clue for performance. So my hopes are not that high to be honest. Keep in mind that X became this huge through DECADES of work.
Also people at wayland seem to have the "second system effect" in their design: that is instead of designing for what is good design, they focus too much on "okay what NOT to follow from X" and that is the basis of their architecture. This is known in the software industry and often leads to systems that first look good on paper then overlook heavy design flaws. I consider the overly thin API and overly complex time spent on window managers such a flaw - for which wlroots is a not well designed "quickfix" and let me tell you because its the "most complete" thing, it will be put in concrete as is people who use different things will be less compatible, but this wlroots becomes "the product that was quickfix prototype originally only". This sounds awful.
Plus wayland removes proper network transparency - I have used it and no: "remote desktop" like things are NOT a substitute. Should have kept that, but this is among the smaller issues.
What they should have done instead? They should have just made something more akin to Xorg, but without the font rendering things. Okay lets say you do not want network transparency, still I would have made it otherwise more like Xorg and generally design it more minimalist. Also mandating that you NEED to do composition (and lose performance) is really bad idea and they have no idea about minimalism so should have had some suckless org people helping them desiging real minimalist stuff. Also they really did not think through how big breach this creates in driver support (yes you can blame nvidia - but come on: we all knew in advance so they should have been more prepared).
^^We would already been using X2 or whatever they would call this instead of wayland at this point.... come on... their design really takes 12+ years and incomplete: don't say it is a good design.
What will happen? I think at least 10 more years naked Xorg still will be around with maintainers. Around 15 years from now on, people will really do suckless wlroots that actually works well (because finally things stabilize enough that it is possible without bugs) - until that people like me will tell you: do not use wayland yet and that it is suckful. How wayland will look at this point? If we are lucky not an overbloated codebase, but I suspect a lot of bloat will get added already so probably it will be looking already like half Xorg at that point...
When compositor not needed, then use DRM, which also came thanks to Wayland.
@@alexjoel1602 DRM is mainlined to Linux kernel 2.3 or 2.4... In any ways it was surely existing at 2.6 but it was already in huge use at that point... I know it is a running meme that "wayland is now becoming old but still many prefer X" but its not THAT old so that you can claim drm came thanks to wayland lol ;-)
And its not about "developing things" but as a user literally not wanting composition AT ALL because it is just unnecessary overhead. So in that wayland makes you need to use it sorry...
Thanks for clarification that DRM was created before Wayland. DRM Atomic was created after. Anyway, DRM can be used in case when low latency and power consumption needed. But writing DRM client is harder than Wayland client, unless windowing library used. So fullscreen Wayland compositor, like Cage, or Gamescope can be used. They have advantages over x11 by having better vsync, lower latency, scaling, other features. In wayland server it is possible to make programs draw directly to scanout buffer. Unlike x11 where some clients can't work normally without compositing and window manager, in wayland features remain same. Also, modern GPUs are fast enough to do that compositing in less than ms, and wayland does it better.
@@alexjoel1602 > DRM can be used in case when low latency and power consumption needed. But writing DRM client is harder than Wayland client,
You seem to go around and around in your copium that "you can write apps that use DRM - yes you can, but as a USER (not a developer, but a user of a system) in case of X you can globally turn off compositing.
> They have advantages over x11 by having better vsync, lower latency, scaling, other features.
Really?
- When it comes to vsync it is basically compositing VS not compositing (or not properly / skill issue).
- lower latency? Maybe for an overbloated system with compositing on and fancy features - but to be honest not really because of wayland. Then go try going nvidia for much worse latency. Also latency is generally worse on wayland when screen capturing.... Latency in case of input is also worse compared to a properly set up minimalist system.
- Scaling: I don't know because I don't care 🙂 Maybe better.
Instead of that, the real benefit is:
- better security in wayland (keyloggers anyone?)
- Being able to throw away ages old codebases
- Removal of glyph drawing legacy stuff
- Some would consider removal of network-transparency as pro (for me a net negative and "virtual desktop access via streaming" is not a substitute to be honest... but for some use cases and users might be considered plus / arguable.
But in meantime they totally fucked up being able to create any minimal window manager. The compositor libraries they have are already bloatware and did not need decades for it to become bloated (X at least had this excuse), generally developers have no idea about minimalism and good architectures and architecture design is basically just driven by "let it be not like X" which is not enough for good architecture.
It is sad, because it could have been much more successful with just a little more care... its a miracle people defend this mess.
> Also, modern GPUs are fast enough to do that compositing
Right there the philosophy that makes me fully turn off by wayland. Especially that I do performance oriented programming... Its like people who did not really care collected and made this pile of shit as architecture... It really would have been not much-much more effort to do it "proper".
In any ways... I will keep using X as long as possible or wayland start to really suck less and be less bloatware as it is now. I imagine that takes like 5-10 more years. If X really stops working in that time period, I might even consider looking into how to fix and keep X working....
My point is, that it would have been actually not that hard to not piss off a lot of people like me just by thinking a bit more before randomly doing architecture...
@@u9vata> Right there the philosophy that makes me fully turn off by wayland. Especially that I do performance oriented programming... Its like people who did not really care collected and made this pile of shit as architecture... It really would have been not much-much more effort to do it "proper".
Yep, instant red flag that the people developing the software don't care about the user experience, user hardware resources, or just the user in general. What is the point of developing a piece of software if you fundamentally do not care about the people that will actually use it? Sadly, this appears to be the norm for nearly ALL software today. I truly hope computation stops progessing solely so that these people lose their jobs/their code stops being accepted in open source projects. That may sound harsh and unreasonable, but their lazy, inconsiderate, and selfish ideas of what makes a software engineer is quite literally destroying the fucking planet. You buy a $2000 computer, and within 5 years it is unusable. Not because software has gotten orders of magnitude more advanced and capable, like in the early days of software/hardware development, but because these monkeys turn everything they touch into slow buggy barely functioning abominations.
You shouldn't need 10 TFLOPS of FP32 compute to run a fucking operating system at idle.
x11 has no programmer. wayland has no code. xp
этот акцент больно слышать
Wayland>>>>>>>>>>x11
Wayland was a huge mistake.
X was also created before developing comprehensively secure software was even thing. A secure Linux desktop with Xorg simply is not possible.
Openbsd made xorg secure
Wayland also fails on this regard by it's reliance on portals that to my knowledge are not audited and also the particular implementation details of the compositor you happen to be using. If you look at a competent secirity model like what MacOS does you see a full security permission API that handles what any given program can or can't do like for example record the keyboard.
I use arch and kde 6 automatically used wayland. i had multiple issues with discord (screen share broken), firefox (emacs on text selection) and mozc (japanese keyboard) and i only was able to solve mozc. i decided to switch back to x11.
more linux deep dive
all those "the future" things end up being more garbage than the things they're trying to raplace. Pipewire has that annoying pop/crack that you have to remove and on previous versions i wasnt even being able to set it up, while pulse just works. Wayland doesnt even work with my nvidia card. Same goes to those anti systemd guys. I gave a chance to artix and it was basically just a worse version of arch. The keyrings broke all the time, i couldnt find information about certain issues and the boot wasnt even that faster, and you still need to download some of the systemd stuff anyway. Not to mention how cringe and soyful those software apologists are. I watched a interview with one of the wayland devs and i just couldnt. The guy sounded like a femboy mixed with the "akshually" nerd. I also heard many people saying things are more complicated on wayland. So why even use that crap when X works without issues? Just to suffer?
Wayland is good for non-computer users don't know what computers are capable of who don't mind hanging a bag on a kludge.
I've run BOTH on most of my distros and CAN"T tell the difference... but then, I don't mess with gaming- never got into that crap...(not knocking it for anyone else- I just don't care for it).. but if that's the only way to tell the difference-- who needs it?
I lived on Linux since 1997. Wayland made me buy a Mac two years ago. Life’s too short for this nonsense.
Another Wayland shill.
Another schizo.
Nobody is forcing you to use Wayland or X11.
The best thing of owning a computer is using what you want.
Use whatever display server you want man...
I will use xorg even if i need to fork it
im sleep deprived why am i watching this
go to bed roblox man