Fair point. Being a reader would certainly be a good background to analyse and develop a theory of structure. Still, when Turby or the people doing the 510 Stages of the Hero's Jouney (which cost a fortune btw) for instance, lay out this very specific map and way of telling a story and they point to great scripts and say "see, here is the death, here is the such and such" And they use great established scripts to show...But I just go, "well that's an established great script... (cont)
It seems easy to take something that clearly works and lay your theory over it. Just the fact that 5 different people with 5 different theories can look at Casablanca and say "see, it works" - I just want to be able to read a script by one of these people so I can see how the theory works from scratch, so to speak. But they don't write...lol - sorry, if it insults teachers. I don't mean to...I just want to be able to see what the results of their technique really is.
I'm reading this book. It talks a lot about how you don't want to write to a mechanical formula (e.g. three-act structure) but then seems to offer another formula, one that i'm sure will encourage a lot more scripts about another big Hero vs another big Villain. When you finally get to the 22 Steps, the main given example for each step is Casablanca, a film which uniquely strays far from most of the steps that Truby is selling. Go figure.
I think this guy's the DON... You still need creativity and some form of originality to make it, but if you've got that this guy will turn you into a master.
@Xelanderthomas I agree with you somewhat, that some 'guru's' may become guru's only because they have given up on screenwriting. Others though, McKee for instance, are paid more for their consultancy work than most script writers are paid. Stanislavski and Meisner were not renown actors but they are responsible for almost all of the acting you see in modern cinema. I believe some people are meant to teach.
"The best writers (not authors), need moods; it's that simple. You need to have emotion in your life, or you cannot write it down. Authorities are talkers of craft(whatever?), characters need emotions!"
@djoh1186 also, please don't get me wrong. I'm working on a play...it's not a screen play it's a stage but still I am finding Truby's book and idea amazingly helpful...
@Xelanderthomas So what they don't write. As Dov Simens says I"m a teacher that's what I do. I teach so you know these things. They have an understanding of story and structure and are giving that info. Many of these people mentioned were also readers or worked some way in Hollywood.
@djoh1186 What this finally told me was that a great performance is a great performance and probably embodies all the elements that make a great performance. When Truby lays out these very specific steps in a pretty specific order and then uses an already established "great" script as an example...well, I just wish I could see a script that I know for sure the writer was using these specific steps and see how it turned out. But he doesn't really write, so I can't. That's all I'm saying.
@djoh1186 Absolutely, I don't doubt these guys are well paid and deserve ever inch of their career. It's interesting that you mentioned Meisner. I have studied (taken classes or workshops) all three of the major American (for lack of a better word) method teachers approaches, Meisner, Strassberg and Stella Alder's - now, in all of these the teacher/coach will inevitably point to Marlon Brando's performance in a Street-Car Name Desire as a quintessential example of this particular technique...
brilliant map makers are not necessarily brilliant travelers. the skill of teaching and dissecting is not necessarily the skill of writing/crafting. his skill may well be in understanding the technique of facilitating others' creativity vs. creating himself. all coaches are not always the best athletes. different skill set. so i don't think he needs to be degraded for his weaknesses, so much as valued for his strengths. great directors are often not the best actors either.
Interesting enough stuff here. The problem with almost all of these writer guru guys is that they don't really have a very impressive track record actually writing. This guy had an episode of 21 Jump Street 20 years ago. Even Robert Mckee has only a so-so impressive list of scripts mostly tv episodic sold. And usually imbedded in their philosophy are criticism of the system that explains why they aren't selling more scripts.
Like Turby hates the 3 act structure...cool.. but if you go and look/listen/read one of the 3 act structure gurus, they will use the same great, established scripts that Turby uses to as examples of his theory. But don't get me wrong, I find Turby to the clearest and best.
![[VO] The Anatomy of Genres - John Truby (English version)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/spPxg5S0A-Y/mqdefault.jpg)
![[VO] The Anatomy of Genres - John Truby (English version)](/img/tr.png)
Fair point. Being a reader would certainly be a good background to analyse and develop a theory of structure. Still, when Turby or the people doing the 510 Stages of the Hero's Jouney (which cost a fortune btw) for instance, lay out this very specific map and way of telling a story and they point to great scripts and say "see, here is the death, here is the such and such" And they use great established scripts to show...But I just go, "well that's an established great script... (cont)
I am hooked... bought the book!
It seems easy to take something that clearly works and lay your theory over it. Just the fact that 5 different people with 5 different theories can look at Casablanca and say "see, it works" - I just want to be able to read a script by one of these people so I can see how the theory works from scratch, so to speak. But they don't write...lol - sorry, if it insults teachers. I don't mean to...I just want to be able to see what the results of their technique really is.
I'm reading this book. It talks a lot about how you don't want to write to a mechanical formula (e.g. three-act structure) but then seems to offer another formula, one that i'm sure will encourage a lot more scripts about another big Hero vs another big Villain. When you finally get to the 22 Steps, the main given example for each step is Casablanca, a film which uniquely strays far from most of the steps that Truby is selling. Go figure.
I think this guy's the DON... You still need creativity and some form of originality to make it, but if you've got that this guy will turn you into a master.
@Xelanderthomas I agree with you somewhat, that some 'guru's' may become guru's only because they have given up on screenwriting. Others though, McKee for instance, are paid more for their consultancy work than most script writers are paid.
Stanislavski and Meisner were not renown actors but they are responsible for almost all of the acting you see in modern cinema. I believe some people are meant to teach.
John I like your courses. But remember what Alex Hailey said"Being brillant is one thing, being employed is another."
"The best writers (not authors), need moods; it's that simple. You need to have emotion in your life, or you cannot write it down. Authorities are talkers of craft(whatever?), characters need emotions!"
Bond has been through quite a lot of character change the last three films. Keep up! --- Tintin, I've not read or watched, so no idea.
@djoh1186 also, please don't get me wrong. I'm working on a play...it's not a screen play it's a stage but still I am finding Truby's book and idea amazingly helpful...
I do agree with Dov Simens that there is a disrespect of teachers in this society.
this guy fucked me up, hahah once i listened to him, i never listened to anyone else
@Xelanderthomas
So what they don't write. As Dov Simens says I"m a teacher that's what I do. I teach so you know these things. They have an understanding of story and structure and are giving that info. Many of these people mentioned were also readers or worked some way in Hollywood.
@djoh1186 What this finally told me was that a great performance is a great performance and probably embodies all the elements that make a great performance. When Truby lays out these very specific steps in a pretty specific order and then uses an already established "great" script as an example...well, I just wish I could see a script that I know for sure the writer was using these specific steps and see how it turned out. But he doesn't really write, so I can't. That's all I'm saying.
I like this a lot, but where is the character change with someone like James Bond or Tintin?
@djoh1186 Absolutely, I don't doubt these guys are well paid and deserve ever inch of their career. It's interesting that you mentioned Meisner. I have studied (taken classes or workshops) all three of the major American (for lack of a better word) method teachers approaches, Meisner, Strassberg and Stella Alder's - now, in all of these the teacher/coach will inevitably point to Marlon Brando's performance in a Street-Car Name Desire as a quintessential example of this particular technique...
Who shot this?? The camera work is horrible.
The medium is the message. :P
Me too! Lol!
brilliant map makers are not necessarily brilliant travelers. the skill of teaching and dissecting is not necessarily the skill of writing/crafting. his skill may well be in understanding the technique of facilitating others' creativity vs. creating himself. all coaches are not always the best athletes. different skill set. so i don't think he needs to be degraded for his weaknesses, so much as valued for his strengths. great directors are often not the best actors either.
@Hamadryade They're probably not writers. LOL
Interesting enough stuff here. The problem with almost all of these writer guru guys is that they don't really have a very impressive track record actually writing. This guy had an episode of 21 Jump Street 20 years ago. Even Robert Mckee has only a so-so impressive list of scripts mostly tv episodic sold. And usually imbedded in their philosophy are criticism of the system that explains why they aren't selling more scripts.
Howcome no one is taking notes ? tss..
Like Turby hates the 3 act structure...cool.. but if you go and look/listen/read one of the 3 act structure gurus, they will use the same great, established scripts that Turby uses to as examples of his theory. But don't get me wrong, I find Turby to the clearest and best.
5 star for this crap? everything he says is so basic, you dont need a script doctor to understand this.