One of the overlooked downside of how accessible records are now is that it takes out a lot the excitement. If you see or hear about something cool it's like "oh I'll get around to it". Or if you're hanging out with a friend, it's not like "whoa, you have that record!? where did you get that?"
As a guy who comes from a time where you had to use a pencil to fix your loose cassette tape, I gotta say it amazes me how advanced the technology is now; if I hear a tune I like, I can google the original source material, see the original movie clip it came from or whatever, then listen to several different piano artists interpretation, all without even getting off the couch/commode ! And all for free !!
Same! I was that student who was hungry and resourceless. Sure, my school had a library with all the jazz albums but climbing uphill through the snow, both ways, to get to that library (Literally, Manhattan School of Music is located on one of the steepest hills in Manhattan), subway fair, etc. It was a nightmare for me. But now, at the push of a button - not only having several takes of each song available, learning the artist and their lives on Wikipedia or their own website is - I guess what they’re now calling The (literal) 5th Dimension is upon us.
This episode sparked a universe of thought and reflection in me. It reminded me that some of my best, or maybe, favorite piano lessons with two particular legends, were the one’s where we’d start a philosophical conversation about music/jazz/piano and life but we wouldn’t get to playing the piano and didn’t realize that an hour or two had gone by, but that conversation was just as important as reviewing what had been practiced all week. When the teacher connected the music to the mundanities of life or the mundanities of life to music. Thank you, Peter. Thank you, Adam. 🌎✨💖🎹
I'm an older bassist and Jazz music is my main thing, but I love listening to, and learning how to play, most genres. I primarily use UA-cam to check out music, and love it. I think it's way better now than when I was growing up and learning how to play in the late 70s/early 80s. One thing I do is make note of things I want to dig into a little deeper while I going down rabbit holes. That way I have something to come back to if I lose focus. Also, I kind of miss physically hanging out with like minded friends, listening to new music while hanging out. Cheers!
I remember having to take the bus to the city to go searching for vinyl records. Then having to learn the music, listening, writing it down, and learn to play. Learning anything on a deep level takes time, and im glad that I had the time when I first started learning. In a way I can appreciate the faster tempo on the internet, because of a deep knowledge of the fundamentals. If I had to learn everything direct from the internet in the fast moving world of today Im not sure I would get the same results. Im still studying music (and lots of other stuff;o) But sometimes I learn more from listening to a chat like this. When you can get everything, you sometimes get nothing, and the other way around;o) Thanks Peter and Adam for all the shorts and the longs. I appreciate all of it.
Fellas - consider playing tunes in the middle of the show, as you go a là Marian McPartland and Piano Jazz. Or… having guests and taking turns. Yall are great. Loving the longer form. 😊
A really insightful conversation about musical learning & practice which, just about when it needed to, yields the mic to some really wonderful music making, that maybe says something that lies beyond the power of mere words to convey. It's a collective endeavor, this music at least, and whatever the changing media circumstances, the people making it have to find a way to make it together--like at old school gigs, like at Small's, like at Emmet's place, and like here. That's the constant.
Peter makes an interesting point with the shorts. It's kind of like the Matteo Mancuso or Guthrie Govan effect for electric guitarists where the player is so advanced in both musicality and technique that the viewer isn't sure whether to feel inspired or discouraged. It could go either way depending on the emotional state of the person watching so it makes sense to just focus on the original intent of making good content. Plus, sometimes you've gotta show the people what you're capable of ; )
Lovely inspiring debate. In fact, I too felt a pronounced shift of jazzer's attention towards the past 'round about 1990 when I tried to develop my own musical aspiration much more looking forward. That suddenly felt like trying to swim upstream artistically. Combined with the bleak prospects of earning a living with music I decided to switch my career path entirely. Still practicing though, and still fond of Weather Report, Bill Frisell, Paul Motian, John Taylor and Marc Johnson's Bass Desires.
On the topic of someone "feeling discouraged when listening to someone play great things". Think of the countless times you felt inspired by someone and didn't/couldn't leave a positive feedback. As a matter of fact, no feedback was needed, the inspiration already found it's right path and now you carry it.
Interesting candid discussion, resonates in many ways. The honesty is appreciated by most I would think. There’s always an element of discouragement watching people who are more talented than yourself but that’s just part of the equation and all you can do is try to improve at your own level. I Always learn something about music watching your videos and I could throw a dart out the window and hit someone that plays bass better than me, but they didn’t write the bass lines or the songs that I have! 😀🎶 There’s a balance there somewhere. Love your approach.
When listening to it, I once again realized that the prevailing model of learning in the past (and it is still fully supported by many jazz teachers) was to learn from others, especially in a group. As I said, even now some jazz teachers focus or practice with sound tracks or better yet playing in a group. What about jazz piano solo playing? Those with classical music training background usually want to play solo (perhaps I am generalizing too much). I believe that learning jazz would have been impossible for me in the past (I am generally not a “team player” at all and like learning on my own or with the teacher who understands this). Michael
Ha! I got zeroed in on that exact thing last night listening to one of your older episodes, the constant change in relation to the mic, thought it was a blast from the past, but obviously I was wrong. Want a pro tip from an amateur singer? Use headphones when you're recording, and you'll personally hear the difference when you're changing position/proximity effect; that'll make it easier to be more conscious of how you sound to the listener. Anyways, content is 10/10! Love you guys, love this podcast and love your UA-cam channel!
This was very interesting. You guys are much younger than I am. We learned from each other when we hung out listening as a group when one of us got a record or digging Symphony Sid or Mort Fega on the radio. (NYC in the 1950's). We didn't have a choice of what to listen to. We had to accept what was being played over the radio. I learned most of the beginnings of my instrument by transcribing from an LP. You know, by picking up the needle and trying to place it where you were interested in learning. A long process indeed. Very different nowadays with the advent of things like UA-cam and others. I really enjoyed this discussion.
I noticed that Emmet has centered not only older piano styles, but older styles in the rhythm section and horn soloists as well. They still feel modern, because you can tell the musicians are well versed in more modern styles as well, again not only Emmet, who can get quartal sideslipping-y at a moments notice, but also the drummers start pushing the Elvin/Jack DeJohnette muscle when the setting calls for it. It seems like people who came up through Mingus or Mingus adjacent had that same ability to channel older styles while keeping them contemporary, Roland Hanna, Jaki Byard, even Don Pullen. Then there was the whole Marcus Roberts/Wynton thing, which frankly didn't seem to balance the deep dive with the newer things so well. You could argue this goes all the way back to Monk who developed a whole language that somehow deeply combined completely modern and pre-jazz church music. Then there were those folks with roots from non-NYC jazz world, like Hilton Ruiz and the New Orleans players like Ellis Marsalis, Peter Martin, John Baptiste, who took different traditions and blended the old with the new. But it does seem to be a moment when younger players are feeling pre-bop styles, maybe because of Emmet's influence and popularity. I had a chance to play for Emmet at one of OS master classes, and found myself doing more-stride inflluenced stuff, just because I was playing for him.
Think there needs to be a bit more tough love from the older generations, because unless people are really seeking it out people will miss these important concepts that are important to the tradition. I've had multiple professors who are very nice but also not afraid to tell me when something wasn't working or when I needed to play less etc. which have really helped me in the long run
Yeah I'm not sure who told them they need to be away from the mic with a dynamic microphone. Proximity effect is dramatic with this type of mic, and I think they sound a bit thin and weak with this approach!
Wait so what was the justification for staying farther from the mic? As an audio engineer (admittedly relatively unfamiliar with best practices for broadcasting) I'm not sure I understand the goal here. You sound thin and weak because you're using dynamic microphones, and the (lack of) proximity dramatically reduces the energy of the bass in your voice. It sounds less intimate to me, just my two cents!
I wouldn't say that I find some of the videos Peter refers to "discouraging". But I would say that I sometimes view a video and conclude that it's targeted at players who are more advanced than I am, so I kind of disregard the presentation. The same concepts could probably have been presented in a way that's targeted toward players of my lower level of ability. This points to an issue that I think is relevant in these educational videos: what level of player are they directed at? Like I said, even if the concepts are appropriate for all levels, sometimes (often, for me) the presentation seems targeted to players of higher ability than I have. E.g., in immediately jumping to doing some exercise at faster tempos. Usually, I can do the basic exercise, but I need to go much more slowly. And it takes a lot of time to get faster. So jumping to faster tempos quickly makes it feel like the video is not targeted at me.
The friend algorithm is way better. In my (limited) exposure to Spotify and Apple Music algorithms it feels very A to B (too frequently A to A). “If you like Thelonious Monk Trio you might like Thelonius Monk Quartet”. Friend recommendations more often go A to B to C to even X. Monk/Trane might lead to Giant Steps to David Gilmore with Paul Bley to Alan Holdsworth and so on.
Just a thought, if someone is that easily discouraged and not looking at new ideas or challenges as an opportunity to learn or to set a goal, they probably were going to quit anyway (or not start). Also, maybe don't read the comments.
11:45 That sort of thing doesn't happen now? It does seem like a smiley-er culture now. Those lessons are what you hope for and fear. That's what you'd look for in a private teacher. But less whiplash, more yoda. It was the same in other musical traditions, but I could tell the jazzers had it the worst. The hippies had the same problem, as far as navigating people from "fake it" to "make it"... but omg the accepted musical boundaries were sooooo much more nebulous and lenient. Still, there was a very distinctive culture that was strongly enforced by gatekeeping via many unwritten rules. You could read about the culture ahead of time, but that's different from immersion in it. There's so much information online now, and backing tracks, and apps that gamify song learning... and then, the culture seems to emphasize virtuosity and speed foremost, and there aren't as many public hang out spaces and low rent venues as there were prior to gentrification, and social distancing... and I think a young jazz musician isn't likely to be able to make a living selling CDs and records anymore. So it's a different culture. Most of humanity's unwritten rules (i.e. subcultures) have been forgotten, lost forever. I mean stuff that many people really cared about... wiped out suddenly. Enjoy what you have while it's there. BTW, I love most of these episodes. If you take 1 of my comments negatively, please keep that in mind. I can be kind of quirky, but I do appreciate this show. (I don't THINK I've been negative here, but I wouldn't bet money on "never"🤣).
The algorithm or gatekeeping has always been there...people had to either know someone or put in the time in clubs to get recognised and signed. So the taste of the A&R guy (as it probably was a guy back in the 60s/70s) is what shaped what came out and what became popular. Now the IGs can learn anything and release anything and get a following that brings the labels to them, via getting 100000s of followers or views or subscribers. I'm all for the egalitarian nature of that. But it means there's an ocean of stuff out there now, and no-one is curating stuff that is definitely 'not good' so it can take longer to find things. Spotify or Apple etc. suggesting "recommended for you" can help, but it tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy and if you like funk then you'll suddenly tend to zero where ALL recommendations are funk. Friends and discovering "old" things is great especially as then you can binge it if you find something new you like. Then the endorphin low kicks in afterwards....and you need to find another "new" thing. So my vote is for "old school"
Who is this "Monk" Dude they keep talking about? MONK, like the T.V. show? Thessolonians Monk? What? Who? Sounds Biblical. Definitely was not taught or talked about at any school I went to
Peter, all of your ‘shorts’ that I’ve seen are great! Don’t worry so much bro. Just keep eating well and pumping out the good music. I love it. 🤙🏻
One of the overlooked downside of how accessible records are now is that it takes out a lot the excitement. If you see or hear about something cool it's like "oh I'll get around to it". Or if you're hanging out with a friend, it's not like "whoa, you have that record!? where did you get that?"
As a guy who comes from a time where you had to use a pencil to fix your loose cassette tape, I gotta say it amazes me how advanced the technology is now; if I hear a tune I like, I can google the original source material, see the original movie clip it came from or whatever, then listen to several different piano artists interpretation, all without even getting off the couch/commode ! And all for free !!
Same! I was that student who was hungry and resourceless. Sure, my school had a library with all the jazz albums but climbing uphill through the snow, both ways, to get to that library (Literally, Manhattan School of Music is located on one of the steepest hills in Manhattan), subway fair, etc. It was a nightmare for me. But now, at the push of a button - not only having several takes of each song available, learning the artist and their lives on Wikipedia or their own website is - I guess what they’re now calling The (literal) 5th Dimension is upon us.
This episode sparked a universe of thought and reflection in me. It reminded me that some of my best, or maybe, favorite piano lessons with two particular legends, were the one’s where we’d start a philosophical conversation about music/jazz/piano and life but we wouldn’t get to playing the piano and didn’t realize that an hour or two had gone by, but that conversation was just as important as reviewing what had been practiced all week. When the teacher connected the music to the mundanities of life or the mundanities of life to music. Thank you, Peter. Thank you, Adam. 🌎✨💖🎹
I'm an older bassist and Jazz music is my main thing, but I love listening to, and learning how to play, most genres. I primarily use UA-cam to check out music, and love it. I think it's way better now than when I was growing up and learning how to play in the late 70s/early 80s. One thing I do is make note of things I want to dig into a little deeper while I going down rabbit holes. That way I have something to come back to if I lose focus. Also, I kind of miss physically hanging out with like minded friends, listening to new music while hanging out. Cheers!
I remember having to take the bus to the city to go searching for vinyl records. Then having to learn the music, listening, writing it down, and learn to play. Learning anything on a deep level takes time, and im glad that I had the time when I first started learning. In a way I can appreciate the faster tempo on the internet, because of a deep knowledge of the fundamentals. If I had to learn everything direct from the internet in the fast moving world of today Im not sure I would get the same results. Im still studying music (and lots of other stuff;o) But sometimes I learn more from listening to a chat like this. When you can get everything, you sometimes get nothing, and the other way around;o) Thanks Peter and Adam for all the shorts and the longs. I appreciate all of it.
Excellent episode here, fellas! 👏🏼👏🏼 And the trading at the end was just *chef’s kiss*
Fellas - consider playing tunes in the middle of the show, as you go a là Marian McPartland and Piano Jazz. Or… having guests and taking turns. Yall are great. Loving the longer form. 😊
A really insightful conversation about musical learning & practice which, just about when it needed to, yields the mic to some really wonderful music making, that maybe says something that lies beyond the power of mere words to convey. It's a collective endeavor, this music at least, and whatever the changing media circumstances, the people making it have to find a way to make it together--like at old school gigs, like at Small's, like at Emmet's place, and like here. That's the constant.
Peter makes an interesting point with the shorts. It's kind of like the Matteo Mancuso or Guthrie Govan effect for electric guitarists where the player is so advanced in both musicality and technique that the viewer isn't sure whether to feel inspired or discouraged. It could go either way depending on the emotional state of the person watching so it makes sense to just focus on the original intent of making good content.
Plus, sometimes you've gotta show the people what you're capable of ; )
Lovely inspiring debate. In fact, I too felt a pronounced shift of jazzer's attention towards the past 'round about 1990 when I tried to develop my own musical aspiration much more looking forward. That suddenly felt like trying to swim upstream artistically. Combined with the bleak prospects of earning a living with music I decided to switch my career path entirely.
Still practicing though, and still fond of Weather Report, Bill Frisell, Paul Motian, John Taylor and Marc Johnson's Bass Desires.
On the topic of someone "feeling discouraged when listening to someone play great things". Think of the countless times you felt inspired by someone and didn't/couldn't leave a positive feedback. As a matter of fact, no feedback was needed, the inspiration already found it's right path and now you carry it.
Interesting candid discussion, resonates in many ways. The honesty is appreciated by most I would think. There’s always an element of discouragement watching people who are more talented than yourself but that’s just part of the equation and all you can do is try to improve at your own level. I Always learn something about music watching your videos and I could throw a dart out the window and hit someone that plays bass better than me, but they didn’t write the bass lines or the songs that I have! 😀🎶 There’s a balance there somewhere. Love your approach.
When listening to it, I once again realized that the prevailing model of learning in the past (and it is still fully supported by many jazz teachers) was to learn from others, especially in a group. As I said, even now some jazz teachers focus or practice with sound tracks or better yet playing in a group. What about jazz piano solo playing? Those with classical music training background usually want to play solo (perhaps I am generalizing too much). I believe that learning jazz would have been impossible for me in the past (I am generally not a “team player” at all and like learning on my own or with the teacher who understands this).
Michael
Ha! I got zeroed in on that exact thing last night listening to one of your older episodes, the constant change in relation to the mic, thought it was a blast from the past, but obviously I was wrong. Want a pro tip from an amateur singer? Use headphones when you're recording, and you'll personally hear the difference when you're changing position/proximity effect; that'll make it easier to be more conscious of how you sound to the listener. Anyways, content is 10/10! Love you guys, love this podcast and love your UA-cam channel!
This was very interesting. You guys are much younger than I am. We learned from each other when we hung out listening as a group when one of us got a record or digging Symphony Sid or Mort Fega on the radio. (NYC in the 1950's). We didn't have a choice of what to listen to. We had to accept what was being played over the radio. I learned most of the beginnings of my instrument by transcribing from an LP. You know, by picking up the needle and trying to place it where you were interested in learning. A long process indeed. Very different nowadays with the advent of things like UA-cam and others. I really enjoyed this discussion.
I noticed that Emmet has centered not only older piano styles, but older styles in the rhythm section and horn soloists as well. They still feel modern, because you can tell the musicians are well versed in more modern styles as well, again not only Emmet, who can get quartal sideslipping-y at a moments notice, but also the drummers start pushing the Elvin/Jack DeJohnette muscle when the setting calls for it. It seems like people who came up through Mingus or Mingus adjacent had that same ability to channel older styles while keeping them contemporary, Roland Hanna, Jaki Byard, even Don Pullen. Then there was the whole Marcus Roberts/Wynton thing, which frankly didn't seem to balance the deep dive with the newer things so well. You could argue this goes all the way back to Monk who developed a whole language that somehow deeply combined completely modern and pre-jazz church music. Then there were those folks with roots from non-NYC jazz world, like Hilton Ruiz and the New Orleans players like Ellis Marsalis, Peter Martin, John Baptiste, who took different traditions and blended the old with the new.
But it does seem to be a moment when younger players are feeling pre-bop styles, maybe because of Emmet's influence and popularity. I had a chance to play for Emmet at one of OS master classes, and found myself doing more-stride inflluenced stuff, just because I was playing for him.
Too cool for school!
Think there needs to be a bit more tough love from the older generations, because unless people are really seeking it out people will miss these important concepts that are important to the tradition. I've had multiple professors who are very nice but also not afraid to tell me when something wasn't working or when I needed to play less etc. which have really helped me in the long run
I’d rather the mic proximity be adhered to for a more sensitive/condenser mic. Am I old school or new school? 1:45
Yeah I'm not sure who told them they need to be away from the mic with a dynamic microphone. Proximity effect is dramatic with this type of mic, and I think they sound a bit thin and weak with this approach!
Old and New School!
phew. I also went to Jazz school but did not graduate!
Same!
What's the name of the Closing song
Wait so what was the justification for staying farther from the mic? As an audio engineer (admittedly relatively unfamiliar with best practices for broadcasting) I'm not sure I understand the goal here. You sound thin and weak because you're using dynamic microphones, and the (lack of) proximity dramatically reduces the energy of the bass in your voice. It sounds less intimate to me, just my two cents!
I wouldn't say that I find some of the videos Peter refers to "discouraging". But I would say that I sometimes view a video and conclude that it's targeted at players who are more advanced than I am, so I kind of disregard the presentation. The same concepts could probably have been presented in a way that's targeted toward players of my lower level of ability. This points to an issue that I think is relevant in these educational videos: what level of player are they directed at? Like I said, even if the concepts are appropriate for all levels, sometimes (often, for me) the presentation seems targeted to players of higher ability than I have. E.g., in immediately jumping to doing some exercise at faster tempos. Usually, I can do the basic exercise, but I need to go much more slowly. And it takes a lot of time to get faster. So jumping to faster tempos quickly makes it feel like the video is not targeted at me.
Not sure I even want to play shows at all ... I just want to understand what I'm doing, technically and so forth ...
The friend algorithm is way better. In my (limited) exposure to Spotify and Apple Music algorithms it feels very A to B (too frequently A to A). “If you like Thelonious Monk Trio you might like Thelonius Monk Quartet”. Friend recommendations more often go A to B to C to even X. Monk/Trane might lead to Giant Steps to David Gilmore with Paul Bley to Alan Holdsworth and so on.
genios, capos!
PS-Content like this helps keep me sane. 😅
Just a thought, if someone is that easily discouraged and not looking at new ideas or challenges as an opportunity to learn or to set a goal, they probably were going to quit anyway (or not start). Also, maybe don't read the comments.
11:45 That sort of thing doesn't happen now? It does seem like a smiley-er culture now. Those lessons are what you hope for and fear. That's what you'd look for in a private teacher. But less whiplash, more yoda. It was the same in other musical traditions, but I could tell the jazzers had it the worst.
The hippies had the same problem, as far as navigating people from "fake it" to "make it"... but omg the accepted musical boundaries were sooooo much more nebulous and lenient. Still, there was a very distinctive culture that was strongly enforced by gatekeeping via many unwritten rules. You could read about the culture ahead of time, but that's different from immersion in it.
There's so much information online now, and backing tracks, and apps that gamify song learning... and then, the culture seems to emphasize virtuosity and speed foremost, and there aren't as many public hang out spaces and low rent venues as there were prior to gentrification, and social distancing... and I think a young jazz musician isn't likely to be able to make a living selling CDs and records anymore. So it's a different culture. Most of humanity's unwritten rules (i.e. subcultures) have been forgotten, lost forever. I mean stuff that many people really cared about... wiped out suddenly. Enjoy what you have while it's there.
BTW, I love most of these episodes. If you take 1 of my comments negatively, please keep that in mind. I can be kind of quirky, but I do appreciate this show. (I don't THINK I've been negative here, but I wouldn't bet money on "never"🤣).
The algorithm or gatekeeping has always been there...people had to either know someone or put in the time in clubs to get recognised and signed.
So the taste of the A&R guy (as it probably was a guy back in the 60s/70s) is what shaped what came out and what became popular.
Now the IGs can learn anything and release anything and get a following that brings the labels to them, via getting 100000s of followers or views or subscribers.
I'm all for the egalitarian nature of that. But it means there's an ocean of stuff out there now, and no-one is curating stuff that is definitely 'not good' so it can take longer to find things.
Spotify or Apple etc. suggesting "recommended for you" can help, but it tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy and if you like funk then you'll suddenly tend to zero where ALL recommendations are funk.
Friends and discovering "old" things is great especially as then you can binge it if you find something new you like.
Then the endorphin low kicks in afterwards....and you need to find another "new" thing.
So my vote is for "old school"
Who is this "Monk" Dude they keep talking about?
MONK, like the T.V. show?
Thessolonians Monk?
What?
Who?
Sounds Biblical.
Definitely was not taught or talked about at any school I went to
Bait used to be believable
@@bwegung Come on, still funny though
The guy who use a lot of dissonant sounds in his cooking....