I love Brian. I worked on staff with him for 3 years. He’s an amazing person and someone I consider a friend and have for many years. Brian I’m so proud of you! Keep doing what you’re doing! This is making a huge difference! ❤❤❤
I was forced out from being on staff member when I was diagnosed with Anxiety, Depression and Panic attack disorder. My doctor placed me on leave for wellbeing, I was not paid. Thanks Brian for being so transparent.
Hi - this isn't really related to your comment - it is about "being transparent" - - - I recently got the distinction that "100% transparent" is essentially INVISIBLE - - - so I lost my love of the word and now use the term "Visible" instead 😄. Anyway - also I do *THANK YOU* for being on staff for when you were there on staff! I'm sure you made a huge difference for many people. It is so sad that Landmark couldn't figure out a way to deliver their powerful transformative programs without eating up the staff/people who assist. 😥 I hope you're feeling better these days.
I attended the Landmark Forum waaay back when it was only $99. It was worth every single minute. It was three days and an evening commit. I never took another class, but I still think about concepts I learned. It was an exceptional one time experience. They mailed me information for a couple of years, but they never hounded me. I would do it again.
This doesn’t operate like an MLM. There’s no product, no upline, and no promotions, but it does rely on word of mouth. It certainly doesn’t talk about salvation. That would definitely be weird!
Brian!! I am SO happy to see your face!!! I was on staff until 2022 and watched you on training videos SO many times, I nearly passed out with excitement when I saw you on here! THANK YOU for doing this!! Exactly my experience being on staff, being on staff broke me. The pressure was so intense and the abuse is always normalised as 'using the distinctions to support your transformation'. I LOVE YOU FOR THIS!!
Many of the early EST, Lifespring, Playground (later Summit) leaders were involved in an organization called Mind Dynamics. In fact, Charlene Afremow, a cofounder of LifeSpring and later a Landmark Forum trainer was the seminar leader of the Mind Dynamics course that Werner Erhardt took before he started EST.
One of the most valuable tenets of Landmark is that we are 100% responsible for whatever we have in life. Not hearing an awful lot of that here... I am so grateful for Landmark and everything I got from it, including a powerful community for life, a mother who was able to clean up with all her children for areas where she was not responsible, a powerful career, a life partner I never could have imagined, and Brian himself, who gave me the courage to fully come out of the closet and live my life as the gay woman I was veiling for decades. Thank you, Landmark -- forever. Landmark is not and was never its employees or participants. It is a set of tools (or distinctions) that we can apply in any way that we feel is valuable. I take 100% responsibility for what I have and don't have. As we like to say at Landmark, there's no cheese down the tunnel of blame...
I don't think he's blaming, he's sharing experiences that he didn't like, that he feels don't work as an organization. And how are we 100% responsible for everything in life? Are we 100% responsible for Landmark not being upfront about Werner Erhard's involvement?
I was in landmark for a bit. One day I realized the person leading my meeting is a volunteer, she was so nice and work so hard but wasn't paid. That gave me some ick. I didn't go further than the main forum and the free one they gave afterwards.
@@solarsombrero227 it was honestly super helpful to me at the time. While the concepts they talked about wasn't revolutionary but it was presented in a way that helped me. But I can absolutely see how it could be used to recruit and exploit people. Like the meeting leader, we all assumed she was an employee till she said she didn't get paid.
Exactly what I thought too. Also, during a break, other volunteers were standing in the back of the room talking in tongues 🤪. At least their own language which like cos gives diff definition for former words. After a couple classes I left. Too weird. Like cos, there seems to be some benefit at first, then it turns weird.
Please reach out to Anne L Peterson! She just wrote the book “Is This a Cult” and she speaks about Werner Erhard and what it was like working side by side with him during his Leadership courses/retreats.
Great interview talk! I have always been extremely curious about landmark. Almost went to their introductory weekend in 2014 but just got side tracked with life and busy with other things. Never really grabbed my attention after that time in my life.
I have huge respect for anyone who claws their way out of a culty relationship. It's hard, and betrayal trauma is a really painful thing. There's healing on the other side, though. Thank you Brian for speaking out!
It is extremely easy to leave landmark....just stop participating....I was on staff for 3 years.....I still participate, because I like it and I get a ton out of it everyday....if that stops, I will stop participating.....and then guess what.....I won't be involved anymore....😅
A friend asked me to watch and I am fining it so painfully draining to listen to with all the “uh”s …He does not speak up to the level of training he says he has had.
I have worked with Brian over the years. I respect him. I did not have a good experience when I left and been concur with some of this assertions about upper management. HOWEVER. I am a successful practicing oral and maxillofacial surgeon. I did not participate in a cult. I find it absolutely offensive that he feels the need to say any of this! This company has created miracles and transformation for millions. And while I don’t agree with some of the business practices- this unbalanced perspective will rob so many people of the good the Landmark provides. Uniting families- create lifelong friendships, altering the course of lives. People who don’t like it are generally people who don’t want to take responsibility. I agree for trauma survivors some of the “in your face” could be harsh. But in my training- the most harsh experiences are the ones that got through my ego and transformed me permanently. The health warnings are also misrepresented. You are responsible for your own well being. Nobody says you can’t take antidepressants while in the program. And the drug policy is because conservative people like me don’t want to send our friends and family to people on drugs! Again. Could the business practices be modified. Yes! But to torch something that does so much good. Another aspect of cancel culture, gone awry. LANDMARK IS NOTHING LIKE SCIENTOLOGY! What about the countless nonprofit projects graduates have done? No mention. The mended friendships and improved results in business? I think this is one of those examples of a flawed man (Werner) who spliced together many different philosophies into this highly effective intellectual property. And just like bikram yoga with a questionable person morally at the top ranks- Does that man make bikram yoga less valuable? Or the Catholic Church? Maybe we are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Thank you. This was a very interesting conversation that kept me awake far too late. Good to get this comparison to kind of get the contours more clear, what are those organisations and what are they not? And well done for speaking our for the first time in such a well articulated way.
@39:12 So Brian was a regional director, and he was kept in the dark. That sounds exactly like a cultic pyramid structure, where only the people at the very top know what's really going on.
l led seminars for no pay in dollars for 12 years because it was an awesomely fulfilling and enriching experience that returned all kinds of benefits in my life. I didn’t do it to be virtuous and I never felt degraded in even the slightest way.
cool you are doing something on Landmark. They are possibly not as out-and-out destructive as Scientology, but its definitely a similar kind of funnel/tunnel people and their family get into
Yeah it si culty or cultish, but not a full on cult. I did a couple of the intro nights with a friend who was deep in it. I came close to do the weekend course, but I could see that they break you down too much and not everyone gets to speak or have attention. I also felt like there was an over positivity factor.
@@hollystiener16 when I did these "info sessions" I was always amazed how they never allowed a single word that was not framed as "what is great about Landmark" - these people have their NLP down 100%
@@psyKater2000 Landmark does not use NLP. That's complete nonsense. I participated in Landmark coursework since 2001. The distinctions made a huge difference for me and in my life. I have quite a bit to say about this. Absolutely NO ONE told Brian Nord to stay on staff for 26 years. That's complete nonsense. He made a choice. Now he's going around doing these interviews and does not come across as a Landmark-trained staff member. He comes across like a victim in this video. He should take his grievances and work them out with Landmark.
It is really unfortunate that our world is made up of so many people who do not have the strength of their convictions to guide them into making decisions for their lives and feel the necessity to find fault or blame anybody outside of themselves, whether it be family friends or organizations. Accountability is up to each of us - Landmark does not change that fact.
I should add that I assisted. Or what most people would call volunteered for over 3 years at many seminars and forums, mainly for selfish reasons. Because I wanted to hear the information repeated so it would stick in my head.. I was approached to further my education as an introduction leader.However I had no interest in leading and was pretty adamant when approached that that was not an area for me. Interestingly enough, I think landmark actually gave me the tools and skills to have more confidence and belief in myself which also gave me the ability to say no when I need to.
One of the best interviews I've heard in a long time. Very informative and the similarities to Scientology are telling. Would be interesting to know Landmarks financial status.
I took the Forum about 30 years ago in San Franciso at the urging of a friend. I got something out of it, which I maintain until now, and was glad I went. Then I did one of the follow-up courses and that’s when the selling began. I had no trouble leaving after that.
I participated a lot and was in programs with Brian, give him a ton of credit for doing this and at one point I questioned to another leader is landmark actually trying to transform the world - they didn’t really have an answer and that is what always kept me from getting intensely involved something felt off that they were not really trying to change the world like they said they were.
I think the internet can offer the same inspiration as Landmark offered to me in the 90’s. Just like the song, “video killed the radio star🎶..” the internet killed Landmark. These young people have already accessed what we (50+) couldn’t.
This is a great way to explain how seemingly smart people can fall prey to a cult. The over- thinkers always need to validate their belief systems as they see it
This video is so unfortunate to people who have never done Landmark’s Programs. My husband and I did multiple programs and we created a wonderful successful life out of it. I don’t agree with how the staff are treated. In fact I was a staff member for a few months. People are free to leave at any time as well.
Lost a lot of friends to this in the mid-nineties. One completely disappeared and I wonder if she got caught up in Nexium. Signs point to cult when you’re not allowed to say you work for Landmark
OMG! I got almost sucked into Landmark. This ex co-worker of mine who was a Zoom moderator for a Landmark forum speaker during the pandemic invited me to a meeting that started at 5pm and ended at 9pm on a Thursday! The meeting consisted of the speaker screaming to the participants saying that they were not "doing the work." During the meeting every 30 min. the speaker would brake out into like a commercial asking people to sign up for the next course and to invite there friends and family and that the course is valued at $200 but that for them it would be only $100. It was insane! I did not understand what "doing the work" was! I asked my coworker how much the whole program was and he said $2,600. I quickly told them no. I dont have that type of money to spend and that I did not understand what I needed the program for. I believe this ex-coworker thought I would say yes because I had just had surgery for a breast tumor and they probably believe I was vulnerable.
Sounds like you’re a bit paranoid. Asked you cuz you were vulnerable? Probably asked because they wanted to share this miraculous work. What I got from Brian is that the forum is very valuable but their business model is terrible.
My best friend got involved in LandMark in Australia. I’ve been to so many Tuesdays evening sessions to support him. After the first one I was pegged for my scepticism and was followed everywhere.. even into an empty washroom. I got so sick of the late night phone calls from my best friend talking nonsense so called a meeting and put our friendship on the line and told him he was in a cult. Two days later he decided to leave it. Yay!
I was scammed into going to one of those Tuesday evening sessions by a friend as well. They said it was a "graduation ceremony" type thing. I wanted to support them, so I went. Well, it wasn't a graduation at all. I was pissed.
I did multiple LM courses for over 15 + years but I never fell hard for the Assisting Program.. The assisting program is the heart of the cultish behavior, the 10 percenters who join that program are usually the ones who go off on it.. I got a lot out of it personally and was able to manifest a lot in my life.. I always felt bad for the people on staff and in the assisting program..
So the main reason I assisted several seminars and forums is because I didn't have the money to take the courses over and over and I wanted to remember what I had learned but the time did come when I made a decision to stop so I could implement what I learned in my life.
Thank you for this interview. My parents were deeply involved with EST for years when I was a child. I was just lucky that there wasn't a strong effort to indoctrinate the children. I did do many seminars and was forced to volunteer at at events but we were not really seen as "big beings in small bodies" so somewhat overlooked by the organization. My parents have always loved a cult so I am also lucky they ran into EST and not Scientology!
Well done for Bravely speaking out, Brian! I've heard they send the lawyers on everyone. If an organisation can't stand to hear critical feedback, then that says something about *their* integrity. Keep doing you, and rediscover your beautiful pre-Landmark self. Wishing you luck with your channel 😊
I'm glad Brian mentioned that Werner is a narcissist. It was my first thought as I was reading the Wikipedia page on him. His behaviour just confirms it. Creating a 'self-help' organization with yourself as the 'brilliant creator' at the centre is a narcissist's dream.
Aaron I just love how you give time and a space to people who are finally speaking out about their process of getting out and moving forward. You really give them time and space it reminds me of your interview with Jamie Mustard his first interview he was kind of all over the place and triggered and really covering a lot of material and you patiently listened and helped clarify for us the listeners and with Brian you’re doing the same thing and every time he presents, he will sound less like a landmark robot and more like Brian as he separates from the speech patterns. Btw Jamie is a real hero as you are!
I know a guy who left his wife and kids for Landmark. Apparently they were holding him back. Whilst still with his family, he invited all of them (parents included) to his "graduation". Turned out to be a hella sales pitch, on par with timeshare "presentations." I know people who did _est_ back in the day; most walked away.
Thank you, Brian. This can't have been easy. It's my hope that you find a career path that supports and sustains you. Best line: "This organization and this organization's purpose is more important than your wellbeing and happiness." Wow! I am sure that that line will set off The Gong Show in some peoples' heads. While I benefited and appreciated the learning I got in the LF and other trainings, I know of so many times when a participants health or their family obligations were nullified in favor of taking another call, registering more participants, and leading another seminar. I think that "This organization and this organization's purpose is more important than your wellbeing and happiness." is the first part of self that is chipped away.
Brian, Thank you for speaking out. I want your process to unfold publicly, I only hope you have the freedom to speak out. I do know it is difficult to be a partner of someone involved in the organization. There really is a Landmark world and a world.
It is so nice to hear your voice again Brian!!! I was in SLP Boston center and had weekends with you in New York. Thank you from so many levels for putting this into language. I completed in 2020…. Hearing this talk has me realize what I went through for many years leading seminars. I finally completed honorably my last calls with SL I came to calls declaring I was out of integrity in my life and obviously did not have enough to to lead anymore. Frankly I was done, being called a failure!!!! My last seminar rocked! I did it My Way! They played Frank Santra “I did I my way” at my last weekend of completion. We all cried because we knew I was not going to have any more in common with the community after that day. Really really Bittersweet and heartbroken they did this to the program.
No, Landmark is an SP Organization in the eyes of Scientology! If you do Landmark, even just one course, you can never do the OT Levels. That is one of the reasons I did it! Seemed safer than taking some psych drug!
Brian, love you buddy. This is awesome that you’re doing this and Landmark definitely change however I still participate. I love it very much. It makes a huge difference for me my friends my family everything you’re saying I see what you’re saying. It’s not a surprise. Thank you so much.
I was into EST in 1978-1985 and during that time changed to The Forum which is Landmark. I am so excited to hear this video! Cult is controversial about Landmark because, for me, not due to fear at all, but it is and isn't. Hard to explain. I left actually in 1987 because I felt the experience of the training (EST) did not match the experiences I was having in the Forum. Yeah, I "get" high control group. It is definitely not Jonestown. It did not strap you financially at all. I think that you can become dependent on Landmark/The Forum and pressured, but you can leave easily. Yeah, being on staff would be difficult; wanted to and glad I did not. I think the "abuse" that occurred in IFLP (6 month program, the first step to become a trainer or Forum leader) was "allowed" and damaging and made me leave. I took every seminar, assisted on multiple trainings, and then did IFLP. The Forum never had the impact that EST did, not one iota. I loved EST at the time. Also when I worked for Scientologists they HATED Werner and EST; :HATED it. EST and The Forum did become my life until I could not, did not, want to deal with it anymore. It is not a shortcut for life. I assisted for YEARS. I used to assist in the valley for Joan and I knew Nathan Rosenberg. Scientologists HATE EST. EST did not come from Scientology, not defending Werner, but he delved and dabbled into many things not just Scientology. But once in on any level in Scientology Scientologists think everything is Scientology. My opinion. Also, there was this going around when Werner's step-daughter had the 60 min. interview WAY BACK it was said because she was married to a Scientologist and had to go on TV and disown and disparage Werner so she could be on good terms in Scientology. Brian's experience is valid totally, but I feel if you don't have EST experience for years, it's just so interesting to hear someone not have take the training (EST) and talk about the Forum. Interesting. Glad for him that he left. Yeah, I too wanted to become a trainer. Again, no shortcut to life. Being gay or bi or anything was no biggie in EST at all. I think they want him to identify as a leader not anything else, not because he's gay. Just my take. But still, glad he's left. I could never sign anybody up except 3 people. I couldn't make it. LOL. I met Werner. It was different back when I did it and was involved. But, glad Brian left. Good for him. Hope he has a happy life!
I see the overlaps pretty clearly. Very similar concepts, extremely similar language, similar practices. For Scientology, I’m a never-in, but I did some Landmark, The Forum and the CAP course aka Communication: Access to Power. I’ve seen friends go through SELP and the Wisdom Course, and my ex did the Advanced Course, and my stepdaughter did the Forum at 14, I think. It was before they created the youth course. I absolutely believe that Werner Erhard “borrowed” heavily from Scientology. Hanging out here in SPTV land I’ve learned a lot and really see the lineage now. Landmark is creepy and manipulative and they use their attendees/volunteers shamelessly. They are also not a safe place for anyone with a history of trauma, or people who are neurodiverse. They are nowhere near as bad as Scientology in many ways, but they aren’t good, and they are definitely culty, if not an actual cult for many people.
I was a pre-teen in the Bay Area in the '70s and "est" was everywhere. I lost my best friend to his family's involvement in the group that would become Lanmark/Forum. Crazy group. Crazy people. Crazy ideas. Gonna stay away from Lululemon now. Hell, I won't watch movies or TV that star Scientologists if I know they're bringing in a lot of the money.
Thank you Aaron... I'm so happy you did this live at that time, as another live was going on that literally made me so mad and drained my IQ 😠... I came over here to smile again so thank you so much for being the ACTUAL one doing the work
The Landmark technology was brilliant for so many reasons. Maybe it was because L Ron Hubbard launched a 'free game' campaign against Werner that Landmark higher-ups got all weird, protective, litigious and covert. Love this Brian!
I worked PT in an apartment rental office in the mid-1980s. The owners were in EST big time. I completely forgot about them “encouraging” us to attend The Forum until hearing this video. I’m now in my 60s and I still thank my parents for raising me to recognize how wrong that was.
@@JeffreyDavidM No. In fact, I was adamant to them that I would not attend. I know it didn’t sit well with them. They gave up after a few more tries and I left soon after. I pass by the apartments every day on my way to work now and often wonder what ever happened to them.
@@LoveBeingMom2 then you have no idea if it was wrong or not. I got a lot from the program so I wanted people I love to do it. I could have been too pushy about it. I am human after all.
No you’re right to a degree. Some of the ideas they put out for consideration were good. My issue was the way the ideas were presented. Unfortunately, I was left with a feeling that my job was dependent on my attending these seminars and I was not comfortable with that.
I was pressured to do Landmark several years ago by acquaintances. Looked at the website SEVERAL times and it just looked culty. The wording sounded culty. This conversation sealed it for me. All respect to Brian, he’s still in the early out stage. He’s still doing a lot of wavering. He’ll get there and I think the conversation with Aaron is going eye opening to him. Every cult has to have a HOOK THAT WORKS otherwise no one would continue its program. These orgs are the new cults. “Cult” is stuck in people’s minds as religious. Religion is sinking so this and MLM is dominant. I would have liked an answer to Aaron’s question about what Landmark feared would be the org downfall. Brian either avoided answering or he glitched a bit because explaining it would anger people he is still connected to in the org.
The book in question at the beginning of the interview- Is This a Cult: Confronting the Line Between Transformation and Exploitation by Anne Peterson. (Available on amazon!)
I’ve participated and still participate in Landmark. I love the work and I recommend it to everyone, but I 100% agree with the fact that the company has a problem with transparency and at times can have moments of creating a hostile work environments. As someone with autism it’s very conflicting, as it’s both the work that helped me conquer my anxieties, being able to make friends, and truly be someone who is successful in life. But as someone who is autistic, I’ve gotten into breakdowns with communication and people getting upset with me because I simply didn’t understand, and have left myself in tears. I definitely want Landmark to flourish because when its great it is INCREDIBLE and I love it, but they absolutely need to change their business practices because it is culty and people shouldn’t be left belittled when the work gets difficult and they just need to be heard. Thank you Brian for holding Landmark account to a higher standard.
Aaron, there are no members in Landmark, just to be clear. Thanks for doing this. I love Brian and remember participating in many great seminars he led. He's right that it's the seminar leaders and other leaders that bear the brunt of the company's cult-like behavior.
i grew up in landmark - was signed up for my first course when i was 11, did a few follow up courses but was done by the time i started hs. i have no problem thinking about it like a cult and am glad i never was pulled too deep in
Fantastic dialog. Of course it’s a cult. Where’s the money, Aaron, indeed. How many homes, properties, compounds do the Erhards, especially Werner, have? The two brothers and one sister have, since the 70s, had how many spouses, how many children, grandchildren supported by first EST, then Landmark money? The whole Ponzi scheme sounds like a slyly crafted family business that has served them well. Anybody else out there set up an international business that takes in money while staffing itself with many unpaid volunteers and only some elite paid staff? What a business model. Erhard’s temper tantrums in the video express his contempt because he knows he’s using people and looks down on them for letting themselves be used: C-U-L-T. Love the definition here given of looking to the leader to see how he’s living in order to determine if it’s a cult. One guy we all have heard of did not himself found a cult, from stable to donkey ride into Jerusalem. Some of his followers-that’s another story.
Just wanted to clarify - near the end of the livestream I questioned in chat whether the author of the book Brian mentioned was the same Margaret Sanger of eugenics “fame” (horrible human being) and she is NOT. Margaret Singer is the author, my apologies, totally different person.
Margaret Sanger deserves condemnation for eugenics, but she also championed women's bodily autonomy and birth control, so for that I acknowledge her contribution. We must learn this distinction. e.g. Future people will look back on us and find much to criticize. Even though many of us were on the right side of most positions.
That's really interesting regarding the "get off of phase". That phrase was really popular in general in theb early 70's and I'm sure into the 80's. I can remember my mother even using it on us kids when we would try to convince her of something. As in " I really did study for that test i just nearly flunked" This was a really commonly used phrase, at least in the Bay Area. So maybe we just had more hippie culture. It's interesting that Landmark kept it in usage. But I'll bet it started with EST and Werner just applying it there.
A roommate convinced me to go to an Intro to the Forum back around 1993. (Must have been a Tuesday night after my roomie took the course.) The leader of the small group handed out papers for us to fill out with our names, phone numbers, etc. I filled mine out mine without guidance and the leader overly praised me as if I had just learned to write. Awkward love bomb. No thanks.
Cults need a charismatic leader and they separate people from their families. Landmark does not have a charasmatic leader and it brings families together. It can't be a cult.
@@AndreAngelantoni You're stipulating a definition, which excludes this group that otherwise acts like a cult. And it's not clear that Werner Ehrhardt is not still an infallible charismatic figure from the video around which the group revolves.
@@abmindprof Well, I can share a bit more because Brian is just learning some things that seem to be throwing him off. Yes, Werner is still consulting with the company he built. Yes, he is earning a royalty because he invented the intellectual property and that's how he derives his income. There is nothing wrong with any of that. Inventors should get credit (and royalties) for their work. For some reason, that Brian is just discovering this now is throwing him off. Without having a conversation with him, I don't know why. But millions of companies set up these sorts of business arrangements. And many (most?) of those millions of companies don't disclose the private financial structure. Complaining about that seems, well, out of touch with the business world. As for Werner being charismatic, he is indeed that. But the interaction between Werner and the company is limited to participation in the Research and Development Team and the occasional in-person event. This is far from an everyday sort of role and he certainly never comes into the office. And that's the thing about Brian: this appears to be the only company he's worked with for any length of time as an adult. - He doesn't know that every effective sales department works with quotas/goals. - He doesn't know that it's common when someone in sales isn't performing to shorten the management time until they get back in their groove. It's often called "buying your freedom"-a terrible expression but that's how effective sales teams work. People who are having trouble get coaching to improve. - He also doesn't get that the most powerful way of having people purchase a product is via a personal recommendation. A personal recommendation means that the person doing the recommending is putting their credibility on the line-the most powerful endorsement. Every company wants the level of customer satisfaction that their customers do what Landmark customers do-sharing it with people in their life. He wants Landmark not to do that anymore, which is absurd. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the marketing and sales cycle. And he doesn't get all these things because he has worked virtually nowhere else. He has no reference and no training in sales and marketing. He fundamentally doesn't get that Landmark is actually a high-performing organization. In fact, their business consulting arm teaches other companies how to operate in a high-performing way.
@@AndreAngelantoniit sounds like you didn’t really listen to, or believe, Brian’s experience. He said he got thrown against a wall, that he was guilted and called for example “a fat, lazy, f-word” and told he has no integrity for not getting tasks done on time. That he was working 70-90 hours a week and being paid next to nothing (while working for a for-profit company). That there’s constant urgency to do this job that will “save the world”. (Again, working for a for-profit self-help/consulting company) I don’t care what anyone wants to call it, he is describing a toxic, high-control organization.
Landmark needs to get into their dictionary, and look up the meanings of words like "DON'T," and "STOP!!," and they need to learn the distinction and the difference between those words, individually, and the phrase "Don't Stop." And they need to learn that each of those words, or the word "No," is a complete sentence.
Thank you so much for finally covering Landmark. My GF has been watching your channel and I've been wondering when it would come! I actually did the Wisdom Course of Landmark with Anne Peterson, before that I was close to leaving Landmark. Anne's rhetoric and teachings/approach saved my "relationship" with Landmark but after she left (probably from how the org was wanting her to change her rhetoric), I saw a dark cloud coming. After meeting her replacement and the the rhetoric they were pushing, it sealed the deal on my departure from Landmark and allowed me to become... complete... with the organization. I'll say that there were a lot of good things that came out of my time with Landmark but I absolutely loved Brian's view/statement about choosing not to support an organization that is taking part in the "negative" things (like when he referred to chick-fil-a. EDIT: But like mfort9997 said, the forum advanced and SELP is an amazing segment that can help with removing barriers in any ventures (personal or professional). But, Landmark is not the only pathway to these successes.
At first, i thought i saw some positives, too, but had heard much of it before. In the end, my privacy was so egregiously violated that i don't consider anything in their programs to be worth that.
I appreciate Aaron’s interview style where there’s barely any interruptions and asks relevant questions - Dodge Landesman literally won’t let someone talk for 5 seconds without butting in
Tim Mills from Harmonic Atheist is one of my favorite interviewers (people who have de-converted). He does speak up quite a bit, but his input is charming and he includes a lot of coherence and presence when he does interject.
Great interview Aaron! You had thoughtful questions and comparisons, but mostly let Brian tell his story. Brian is an excellent speaker and seems like a lovely person. Brian, if you are reading the comments, please do start a channel! Brian seems to want to help other people and a channel might do that and also help himself to keep processing his experiences and feelings around them.
Good to see you Brian. This interview was so great. I 100 percent am aligned with the constant failed re-invention having to have wellbeing honored and to end the pressure for measures. I always wondered why no 2:07:22 one was looking at the fact that Werner suffered from chronic fatigue. For years. What is sad is that the actual technology is so wonderful and if that work is honored people would be drawn and not have to have the endless slavish march for measures
Brian appears to be lovely person who is travelling the long path to peeling off the layers of his cult. I think your discussion with him opened him up to some new ideas. Good job Aaron
Landmark, I know you're reading this. When you guys decided to ignore all the contributions former LF leader Anurag Gupta was suggesting for you, thats When your insularity began to kick you in the ass. When it takes years for a radio interviewer to get an interview with one of your landmark forum leaders because you have to make sure that they're not going to hold the company in a negative light, it just occurs as squirrely. Why don't you invite everyone in to see what you're really doing? If Ann's book and interviews like this with Brian don't get you to begin to use your own technology on yourself, then we're all just going to be looking at you like chemotherapy: It works, But there are so many better alternatives now. I'm glad you're freaking out now. If you continue along a PR path that includes damage control all the time like you have been, And you keep losing leaders you trained, The sad thing is it really will come to an end. I loved the company once as an IL, but the legacy it's now leaving is gross because of Harry and Joans leadership. It's time for them to look at what they don't know they don't know.
I went to an intro meeting as a courtesy to my friend who had gotten sucked in and had been commanded to recruit. I got SUCH a creepy feeling there. They attempted to break me down emotionally so they could manipulate me. I could not get out of there fast enough. I saw a cult expert describe this as the most dangerous cult in the U.S.
Before Landmark there was est, also known as Werner Erhart and Associates. I was a member from 1979 to 1983, went thru all their training, was a logistics team leader and seminar logistics supervisor. You learned to think like Erhart, and I ended up finding myself homeless and unskilled. Took me quite a while to get over it and learn to live in the real world.
i did the landmark forum when i was 18. i was very impressionable but it definitely transformed me and changed my life path immediately , for the better. i am forever grateful for the person who recommended it to me. that said, it was very cult-ish, and can see how it can suck someone in to ‘waste’ their life trying to achieve the mission. very interesting conversation, thanks for sharing Aaron! - Harry
This is absolutely fascinating to me. I took Landmark Forum (and then Advanced and then Wisdom and a couple of extra seminars) back in 2005 in NYC. Sophie was my Forum leader. The hilarious thing is that I was a fully indoctrinated Jehovah's Witness at that time (not anymore, thank God!) so I made it my mission to "enroll" everyone in Landmark into Bible studies with Jdubs ans I enrolled multiple Jdubs into Landmark. It was like "Inception: multi-level cults!" Agh! Crazy times. Have you interviewed anybody who left Avatar? Thats a Landmark "squirrel" that I almost wasted more money on.
An old girlfriend was involved with Landmark. She invited me to an open house at the conclusion of a weekend seminar. Listening to the way they described the program, and how it "changes your outlook on life," I decided it wasn't for me. First of all, the cost and their justification for the cost was a tie between a Tony Robbins seminar and an AMWAY sales pitch. (the only people getting rich are the organizers) I told them it sounded a little too much like "Dianetics" and left.
Sure, you COULD go to the Landmark Forum, OR you could just watch the first episode of Mad Men; "It's Toasted...". Also, if you leave early when they say they will give you your money back? They DON'T!
I love Brian. I worked on staff with him for 3 years. He’s an amazing person and someone I consider a friend and have for many years. Brian I’m so proud of you! Keep doing what you’re doing! This is making a huge difference! ❤❤❤
Hi Harold! Love you! Love Brian!
Hi Harold, hope you’re well.
I’m happy he’s sharing his experiences but do you not think he’s perpetuating the “Landmark = cult” mindset?
I was forced out from being on staff member when I was diagnosed with Anxiety, Depression and Panic attack disorder. My doctor placed me on leave for wellbeing, I was not paid. Thanks Brian for being so transparent.
Hi - this isn't really related to your comment - it is about "being transparent" - - - I recently got the distinction that "100% transparent" is essentially INVISIBLE - - - so I lost my love of the word and now use the term "Visible" instead 😄. Anyway - also I do *THANK YOU* for being on staff for when you were there on staff! I'm sure you made a huge difference for many people. It is so sad that Landmark couldn't figure out a way to deliver their powerful transformative programs without eating up the staff/people who assist. 😥
I hope you're feeling better these days.
Thank you Brian! From a former seminar leader apprentice
Great Interview! Love Aaron enabling people to speak out.
I attended the Landmark Forum waaay back when it was only $99. It was worth every single minute. It was three days and an evening commit. I never took another class, but I still think about concepts I learned. It was an exceptional one time experience. They mailed me information for a couple of years, but they never hounded me. I would do it again.
It's a cult
Did you just leave a Google review
lol. I think we are starting to see cults everywhere.
@@NM_Girl Especially when looking at cults.
@@LOOOVEIT Landmark is NOT A CULT. Cults tell you what to think. Landmark does not tell you what to think.
I was in an MLM when chose to leave the gossip was incredible & I was told I would lose my salvation?!?! It only convinced me more to leave.
MLM’s are totally cults and their behavior is gross.
This doesn’t operate like an MLM. There’s no product, no upline, and no promotions, but it does rely on word of mouth. It certainly doesn’t talk about salvation. That would definitely be weird!
Brian!! I am SO happy to see your face!!! I was on staff until 2022 and watched you on training videos SO many times, I nearly passed out with excitement when I saw you on here! THANK YOU for doing this!! Exactly my experience being on staff, being on staff broke me. The pressure was so intense and the abuse is always normalised as 'using the distinctions to support your transformation'. I LOVE YOU FOR THIS!!
Several people on here have recognized Brian and relayed their affection for him. Must have been quite the horrible abusive program.
Interesting how he calls emotions "upsets" just like Scientologist do.
Many of the early EST, Lifespring, Playground (later Summit) leaders were involved in an organization called Mind Dynamics. In fact, Charlene Afremow, a cofounder of LifeSpring and later a Landmark Forum trainer was the seminar leader of the Mind Dynamics course that Werner Erhardt took before he started EST.
Just talking today with my est friend since 1981 about Mind Dynamics being before est.
@@ammibrooks2 I did the Forum about 10 years ago. Afremow was my Advanced Course Leader. I did my research after.
I was on a production team when Charlene was teaching the Advanced Course at Landmark.
Charlene scared me! But she was kind of awesome, too. 'Take these fake plants out of my space!'
Charlene lead the first weekend of my est training in 1983. She was tough as nails. I had a huge breakthrough the second day of the training.
One of the most valuable tenets of Landmark is that we are 100% responsible for whatever we have in life. Not hearing an awful lot of that here... I am so grateful for Landmark and everything I got from it, including a powerful community for life, a mother who was able to clean up with all her children for areas where she was not responsible, a powerful career, a life partner I never could have imagined, and Brian himself, who gave me the courage to fully come out of the closet and live my life as the gay woman I was veiling for decades. Thank you, Landmark -- forever. Landmark is not and was never its employees or participants. It is a set of tools (or distinctions) that we can apply in any way that we feel is valuable. I take 100% responsibility for what I have and don't have. As we like to say at Landmark, there's no cheese down the tunnel of blame...
I don't think he's blaming, he's sharing experiences that he didn't like, that he feels don't work as an organization. And how are we 100% responsible for everything in life? Are we 100% responsible for Landmark not being upfront about Werner Erhard's involvement?
I was in landmark for a bit. One day I realized the person leading my meeting is a volunteer, she was so nice and work so hard but wasn't paid. That gave me some ick. I didn't go further than the main forum and the free one they gave afterwards.
I had never even heard of landmark before this video. There seems to be very little critical content online about them so far.
@@solarsombrero227 it was honestly super helpful to me at the time. While the concepts they talked about wasn't revolutionary but it was presented in a way that helped me. But I can absolutely see how it could be used to recruit and exploit people. Like the meeting leader, we all assumed she was an employee till she said she didn't get paid.
Exactly what I thought too. Also, during a break, other volunteers were standing in the back of the room talking in tongues 🤪. At least their own language which like cos gives diff definition for former words. After a couple classes I left. Too weird. Like cos, there seems to be some benefit at first, then it turns weird.
Landmark was originally EST at one time. There was a scandal, it broke up and someone started Landmark. They cleaned up some abuses and remarketed it.
@@solarsombrero227they suppressed negative reviews for a long time.
Please reach out to Anne L Peterson! She just wrote the book “Is This a Cult” and she speaks about Werner Erhard and what it was like working side by side with him during his Leadership courses/retreats.
Werner Hans Erhard (born John Paul Rosenberg;
Werner Erhard???!!! The same crackpot that formed est???!!! That would be enough to make me stay far away!!! What a shyster!! 😮
Well done Brian Hope to see more from you Thanks Aaron !!!
Great interview talk! I have always been extremely curious about landmark. Almost went to their introductory weekend in 2014 but just got side tracked with life and busy with other things. Never really grabbed my attention after that time in my life.
This was a great interview! Thanks Aaron and Brian!
Great guest! Never heard of Landmark! Love his kind comments about you at the end, A-aron! ❤️
I locked him in. Can you come kitty?🎉
I have huge respect for anyone who claws their way out of a culty relationship. It's hard, and betrayal trauma is a really painful thing. There's healing on the other side, though. Thank you Brian for speaking out!
Getting out of Landmark is easy.
It is extremely easy to leave landmark....just stop participating....I was on staff for 3 years.....I still participate, because I like it and I get a ton out of it everyday....if that stops, I will stop participating.....and then guess what.....I won't be involved anymore....😅
He's a great speaker. Very easy to listen to.
A friend asked me to watch and I am fining it so painfully draining to listen to with all the “uh”s …He does not speak up to the level of training he says he has had.
I have worked with Brian over the years. I respect him. I did not have a good experience when I left and been concur with some of this assertions about upper management. HOWEVER. I am a successful practicing oral and maxillofacial surgeon. I did not participate in a cult. I find it absolutely offensive that he feels the need to say any of this! This company has created miracles and transformation for millions. And while I don’t agree with some of the business practices- this unbalanced perspective will rob so many people of the good the Landmark provides. Uniting families- create lifelong friendships, altering the course of lives. People who don’t like it are generally people who don’t want to take responsibility. I agree for trauma survivors some of the “in your face” could be harsh. But in my training- the most harsh experiences are the ones that got through my ego and transformed me permanently.
The health warnings are also misrepresented. You are responsible for your own well being. Nobody says you can’t take antidepressants while in the program. And the drug policy is because conservative people like me don’t want to send our friends and family to people on drugs! Again. Could the business practices be modified. Yes! But to torch something that does so much good.
Another aspect of cancel culture, gone awry. LANDMARK IS NOTHING LIKE SCIENTOLOGY!
What about the countless nonprofit projects graduates have done? No mention. The mended friendships and improved results in business?
I think this is one of those examples of a flawed man (Werner) who spliced together many different philosophies into this highly effective intellectual property. And just like bikram yoga with a questionable person morally at the top ranks- Does that man make bikram yoga less valuable? Or the Catholic Church?
Maybe we are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
👏🏻🥳👍🏻😊❤
Yes!!! All of this!!! Thank you for saying this!!🎉🎉🎉
What are the miracles?
@@gladysgreen2 Are you asking because you’re genuinely curious? Or are you waiting to ounce if he responds?
This is tough for me to take. Brian I appreciate you discussing your journey.
Me too 💜
Thank you. This was a very interesting conversation that kept me awake far too late. Good to get this comparison to kind of get the contours more clear, what are those organisations and what are they not? And well done for speaking our for the first time in such a well articulated way.
@39:12 So Brian was a regional director, and he was kept in the dark. That sounds exactly like a cultic pyramid structure, where only the people at the very top know what's really going on.
Like the military, corporations, a family (Santa Claus anyone?)
😮 Wow what a story from Brian! Glad to hear about this it was interesting!
l led seminars for no pay in dollars for 12 years because it was an awesomely fulfilling and enriching experience that returned all kinds of benefits in my life. I didn’t do it to be virtuous and I never felt degraded in even the slightest way.
cool you are doing something on Landmark. They are possibly not as out-and-out destructive as Scientology, but its definitely a similar kind of funnel/tunnel people and their family get into
Yeah it si culty or cultish, but not a full on cult. I did a couple of the intro nights with a friend who was deep in it. I came close to do the weekend course, but I could see that they break you down too much and not everyone gets to speak or have attention. I also felt like there was an over positivity factor.
@@hollystiener16 when I did these "info sessions" I was always amazed how they never allowed a single word that was not framed as "what is great about Landmark" - these people have their NLP down 100%
@@psyKater2000 Landmark does not use NLP. That's complete nonsense. I participated in Landmark coursework since 2001. The distinctions made a huge difference for me and in my life. I have quite a bit to say about this. Absolutely NO ONE told Brian Nord to stay on staff for 26 years. That's complete nonsense. He made a choice. Now he's going around doing these interviews and does not come across as a Landmark-trained staff member. He comes across like a victim in this video. He should take his grievances and work them out with Landmark.
It is really unfortunate that our world is made up of so many people who do not have the strength of their convictions to guide them into making decisions for their lives and feel the necessity to find fault or blame anybody outside of themselves, whether it be family friends or organizations. Accountability is up to each of us - Landmark does not change that fact.
The money is going in somebody’s pocket….
That was great interview what a fun guy. Loved it.
I should add that I assisted. Or what most people would call volunteered for over 3 years at many seminars and forums, mainly for selfish reasons. Because I wanted to hear the information repeated so it would stick in my head.. I was approached to further my education as an introduction leader.However I had no interest in leading and was pretty adamant when approached that that was not an area for me. Interestingly enough, I think landmark actually gave me the tools and skills to have more confidence and belief in myself which also gave me the ability to say no when I need to.
Thanks for getting on it Brian! This is so healing to listen to.
It was good listening to you, Brian after all the years I assisted with you in the NY center.
Replay crew: Really enjoyed this conversation thanks both 👏. So interesting to see the similarities with Sci & it's totally a cult 🫡.
I did the est training and the forum. I gave the best years of my life for transformation and wound up drained.
One of the best interviews I've heard in a long time. Very informative and the similarities to Scientology are telling. Would be interesting to know Landmarks financial status.
I took the Forum about 30 years ago in San Franciso at the urging of a friend. I got something out of it, which I maintain until now, and was glad I went. Then I did one of the follow-up courses and that’s when the selling began. I had no trouble leaving after that.
I participated a lot and was in programs with Brian, give him a ton of credit for doing this and at one point I questioned to another leader is landmark actually trying to transform the world - they didn’t really have an answer and that is what always kept me from getting intensely involved something felt off that they were not really trying to change the world like they said they were.
I think the internet can offer the same inspiration as Landmark offered to me in the 90’s. Just like the song, “video killed the radio star🎶..” the internet killed Landmark. These young people have already accessed what we (50+) couldn’t.
This is a great way to explain how seemingly smart people can fall prey to a cult. The over- thinkers always need to validate their belief systems as they see it
😜 not just ‘seemingly smart’ people but SMART people fall for cults. The basis for being in these groups is wanting to be accepted in a group.
@@franciet99 very true!
This video is so unfortunate to people who have never done Landmark’s Programs. My husband and I did multiple programs and we created a wonderful successful life out of it.
I don’t agree with how the staff are treated. In fact I was a staff member for a few months. People are free to leave at any time as well.
Do you feel Brian was fair about the difference between taking the programs and being a staff member?
I think it's more the center managers and the Senior Forum Leaders.
@@GrowingUpInScientologyNo, not at all.
@@GrowingUpInScientologyAnd Brian is a friend of mine, this is so disappointing…he mischaracterized multiple features.
Im with you. My awesome marriage exists because of landmark courses. We dealt and deal with our issues so much more effectively thanks to landmark.
Lost a lot of friends to this in the mid-nineties. One completely disappeared and I wonder if she got caught up in Nexium. Signs point to cult when you’re not allowed to say you work for Landmark
This episode is WONDERFUL! I watched so many and this is the best one! Thank you for doing it
Great guy. Do well with your new channel 😊
That was fascinating! A lot of yoda-esque language going on in landmark. Great interview!
“Page-turners, they are not!” :D
OMG! I got almost sucked into Landmark. This ex co-worker of mine who was a Zoom moderator for a Landmark forum speaker during the pandemic invited me to a meeting that started at 5pm and ended at 9pm on a Thursday! The meeting consisted of the speaker screaming to the participants saying that they were not "doing the work." During the meeting every 30 min. the speaker would brake out into like a commercial asking people to sign up for the next course and to invite there friends and family and that the course is valued at $200 but that for them it would be only $100. It was insane! I did not understand what "doing the work" was! I asked my coworker how much the whole program was and he said $2,600. I quickly told them no. I dont have that type of money to spend and that I did not understand what I needed the program for. I believe this ex-coworker thought I would say yes because I had just had surgery for a breast tumor and they probably believe I was vulnerable.
Sounds like you’re a bit paranoid. Asked you cuz you were vulnerable? Probably asked because they wanted to share this miraculous work. What I got from Brian is that the forum is very valuable but their business model is terrible.
My best friend got involved in LandMark in Australia. I’ve been to so many Tuesdays evening sessions to support him. After the first one I was pegged for my scepticism and was followed everywhere.. even into an empty washroom. I got so sick of the late night phone calls from my best friend talking nonsense so called a meeting and put our friendship on the line and told him he was in a cult. Two days later he decided to leave it. Yay!
I was scammed into going to one of those Tuesday evening sessions by a friend as well. They said it was a "graduation ceremony" type thing. I wanted to support them, so I went. Well, it wasn't a graduation at all. I was pissed.
Brilliant interview Aaron, and brilliant guest! Loved listening to Brian Nord, looking forward to his channel! ❤
I did multiple LM courses for over 15 + years but I never fell hard for the Assisting Program.. The assisting program is the heart of the cultish behavior, the 10 percenters who join that program are usually the ones who go off on it.. I got a lot out of it personally and was able to manifest a lot in my life.. I always felt bad for the people on staff and in the assisting program..
So the main reason I assisted several seminars and forums is because I didn't have the money to take the courses over and over and I wanted to remember what I had learned but the time did come when I made a decision to stop so I could implement what I learned in my life.
No need to feel bad. They (I) signed up for it.
Now that you know who you're not, discover who you are!!! ....seems like Erhard was contructing his very own OT9.
Thank you for this interview. My parents were deeply involved with EST for years when I was a child. I was just lucky that there wasn't a strong effort to indoctrinate the children. I did do many seminars and was forced to volunteer at at events but we were not really seen as "big beings in small bodies" so somewhat overlooked by the organization. My parents have always loved a cult so I am also lucky they ran into EST and not Scientology!
Same for me. I volunteered all the time starting at age 10. That way I could see my mom.
Well done for Bravely speaking out, Brian! I've heard they send the lawyers on everyone. If an organisation can't stand to hear critical feedback, then that says something about *their* integrity. Keep doing you, and rediscover your beautiful pre-Landmark self. Wishing you luck with your channel 😊
I'm glad Brian mentioned that Werner is a narcissist. It was my first thought as I was reading the Wikipedia page on him. His behaviour just confirms it. Creating a 'self-help' organization with yourself as the 'brilliant creator' at the centre is a narcissist's dream.
Aaron I just love how you give time and a space to people who are finally speaking out about their process of getting out and moving forward. You really give them time and space it reminds me of your interview with Jamie Mustard his first interview he was kind of all over the place and triggered and really covering a lot of material and you patiently listened and helped clarify for us the listeners and with Brian you’re doing the same thing and every time he presents, he will sound less like a landmark robot and more like Brian as he separates from the speech patterns. Btw Jamie is a real hero as you are!
I know a guy who left his wife and kids for Landmark. Apparently they were holding him back. Whilst still with his family, he invited all of them (parents included) to his "graduation". Turned out to be a hella sales pitch, on par with timeshare "presentations."
I know people who did _est_ back in the day; most walked away.
Thank you, Brian. This can't have been easy. It's my hope that you find a career path that supports and sustains you. Best line: "This organization and this organization's purpose is more important than your wellbeing and happiness." Wow! I am sure that that line will set off The Gong Show in some peoples' heads. While I benefited and appreciated the learning I got in the LF and other trainings, I know of so many times when a participants health or their family obligations were nullified in favor of taking another call, registering more participants, and leading another seminar. I think that "This organization and this organization's purpose is more important than your wellbeing and happiness." is the first part of self that is chipped away.
Brian, Thank you for speaking out. I want your process to unfold publicly, I only hope you have the freedom to speak out. I do know it is difficult to be a partner of someone involved in the organization. There really is a Landmark world and a world.
"Technology of Landmark" --just like Scientology
It is so nice to hear your voice again Brian!!! I was in SLP Boston center and had weekends with you in New York. Thank you from so many levels for putting this into language. I completed in 2020…. Hearing this talk has me realize what I went through for many years leading seminars. I finally completed honorably my last calls with SL I came to calls declaring I was out of integrity in my life and obviously did not have enough to to lead anymore. Frankly I was done, being called a failure!!!!
My last seminar rocked! I did it My Way! They played Frank Santra “I did I my way” at my last weekend of completion. We all cried because we knew I was not going to have any more in common with the community after that day. Really really Bittersweet and heartbroken they did this to the program.
I JUST CHECKED EVERY LOCATION THAT LANDMARK IS IN THERE IS A SCIENTOLOGY BUILDING IN EVERY SINGLE CITY. I BET THERE IS MONEY LAUNDERING GOING ON
That’s probably just correlated to the fact the Scientology Orgs are normally located in large cities on purpose.
No, Landmark is an SP Organization in the eyes of Scientology! If you do Landmark, even just one course, you can never do the OT Levels. That is one of the reasons I did it! Seemed safer than taking some psych drug!
Thank you so much for this interview. I have realized so much from it.
Brian, love you buddy. This is awesome that you’re doing this and Landmark definitely change however I still participate. I love it very much. It makes a huge difference for me my friends my family everything you’re saying I see what you’re saying. It’s not a surprise. Thank you so much.
I was into EST in 1978-1985 and during that time changed to The Forum which is Landmark. I am so excited to hear this video! Cult is controversial about Landmark because, for me, not due to fear at all, but it is and isn't. Hard to explain. I left actually in 1987 because I felt the experience of the training (EST) did not match the experiences I was having in the Forum. Yeah, I "get" high control group. It is definitely not Jonestown. It did not strap you financially at all. I think that you can become dependent on Landmark/The Forum and pressured, but you can leave easily. Yeah, being on staff would be difficult; wanted to and glad I did not. I think the "abuse" that occurred in IFLP (6 month program, the first step to become a trainer or Forum leader) was "allowed" and damaging and made me leave. I took every seminar, assisted on multiple trainings, and then did IFLP. The Forum never had the impact that EST did, not one iota. I loved EST at the time. Also when I worked for Scientologists they HATED Werner and EST; :HATED it. EST and The Forum did become my life until I could not, did not, want to deal with it anymore. It is not a shortcut for life. I assisted for YEARS. I used to assist in the valley for Joan and I knew Nathan Rosenberg. Scientologists HATE EST. EST did not come from Scientology, not defending Werner, but he delved and dabbled into many things not just Scientology. But once in on any level in Scientology Scientologists think everything is Scientology. My opinion. Also, there was this going around when Werner's step-daughter had the 60 min. interview WAY BACK it was said because she was married to a Scientologist and had to go on TV and disown and disparage Werner so she could be on good terms in Scientology. Brian's experience is valid totally, but I feel if you don't have EST experience for years, it's just so interesting to hear someone not have take the training (EST) and talk about the Forum. Interesting. Glad for him that he left. Yeah, I too wanted to become a trainer. Again, no shortcut to life. Being gay or bi or anything was no biggie in EST at all. I think they want him to identify as a leader not anything else, not because he's gay. Just my take. But still, glad he's left. I could never sign anybody up except 3 people. I couldn't make it. LOL. I met Werner. It was different back when I did it and was involved. But, glad Brian left. Good for him. Hope he has a happy life!
I see the overlaps pretty clearly. Very similar concepts, extremely similar language, similar practices. For Scientology, I’m a never-in, but I did some Landmark, The Forum and the CAP course aka Communication: Access to Power. I’ve seen friends go through SELP and the Wisdom Course, and my ex did the Advanced Course, and my stepdaughter did the Forum at 14, I think. It was before they created the youth course. I absolutely believe that Werner Erhard “borrowed” heavily from Scientology. Hanging out here in SPTV land I’ve learned a lot and really see the lineage now. Landmark is creepy and manipulative and they use their attendees/volunteers shamelessly. They are also not a safe place for anyone with a history of trauma, or people who are neurodiverse. They are nowhere near as bad as Scientology in many ways, but they aren’t good, and they are definitely culty, if not an actual cult for many people.
I was a pre-teen in the Bay Area in the '70s and "est" was everywhere. I lost my best friend to his family's involvement in the group that would become Lanmark/Forum. Crazy group. Crazy people. Crazy ideas. Gonna stay away from Lululemon now. Hell, I won't watch movies or TV that star Scientologists if I know they're bringing in a lot of the money.
All organizations can qualify as cults including anti-cult organizations.
Thank you Aaron... I'm so happy you did this live at that time, as another live was going on that literally made me so mad and drained my IQ 😠... I came over here to smile again so thank you so much for being the ACTUAL one doing the work
The Landmark technology was brilliant for so many reasons. Maybe it was because L Ron Hubbard launched a 'free game' campaign against Werner that Landmark higher-ups got all weird, protective, litigious and covert. Love this Brian!
I worked PT in an apartment rental office in the mid-1980s. The owners were in EST big time. I completely forgot about them “encouraging” us to attend The Forum until hearing this video. I’m now in my 60s and I still thank my parents for raising me to recognize how wrong that was.
Did you attend?
@@JeffreyDavidM No. In fact, I was adamant to them that I would not attend. I know it didn’t sit well with them. They gave up after a few more tries and I left soon after. I pass by the apartments every day on my way to work now and often wonder what ever happened to them.
@@LoveBeingMom2 then you have no idea if it was wrong or not. I got a lot from the program so I wanted people I love to do it. I could have been too pushy about it. I am human after all.
No you’re right to a degree. Some of the ideas they put out for consideration were good. My issue was the way the ideas were presented. Unfortunately, I was left with a feeling that my job was dependent on my attending these seminars and I was not comfortable with that.
Oh I have so much to say... can't wait to watch this
I was pressured to do Landmark several years ago by acquaintances. Looked at the website SEVERAL times and it just looked culty. The wording sounded culty. This conversation sealed it for me.
All respect to Brian, he’s still in the early out stage. He’s still doing a lot of wavering. He’ll get there and I think the conversation with Aaron is going eye opening to him. Every cult has to have a HOOK THAT WORKS otherwise no one would continue its program.
These orgs are the new cults. “Cult” is stuck in people’s minds as religious. Religion is sinking so this and MLM is dominant.
I would have liked an answer to Aaron’s question about what Landmark feared would be the org downfall. Brian either avoided answering or he glitched a bit because explaining it would anger people he is still connected to in the org.
💯
The book in question at the beginning of the interview- Is This a Cult: Confronting the Line Between Transformation and Exploitation by Anne Peterson. (Available on amazon!)
I’ve participated and still participate in Landmark. I love the work and I recommend it to everyone, but I 100% agree with the fact that the company has a problem with transparency and at times can have moments of creating a hostile work environments. As someone with autism it’s very conflicting, as it’s both the work that helped me conquer my anxieties, being able to make friends, and truly be someone who is successful in life. But as someone who is autistic, I’ve gotten into breakdowns with communication and people getting upset with me because I simply didn’t understand, and have left myself in tears.
I definitely want Landmark to flourish because when its great it is INCREDIBLE and I love it, but they absolutely need to change their business practices because it is culty and people shouldn’t be left belittled when the work gets difficult and they just need to be heard.
Thank you Brian for holding Landmark account to a higher standard.
This is one of the best conversations you've had. Fascinating.
Aaron, thank you for this interview. I had never heard of Landmark. Sending you and Brian good wishes.
Aaron, there are no members in Landmark, just to be clear. Thanks for doing this. I love Brian and remember participating in many great seminars he led. He's right that it's the seminar leaders and other leaders that bear the brunt of the company's cult-like behavior.
Great interview. Didn’t know about Landmark.
Nice job Brian!
i grew up in landmark - was signed up for my first course when i was 11, did a few follow up courses but was done by the time i started hs. i have no problem thinking about it like a cult and am glad i never was pulled too deep in
Fantastic dialog. Of course it’s a cult. Where’s the money, Aaron, indeed. How many homes, properties, compounds do the Erhards, especially Werner, have? The two brothers and one sister have, since the 70s, had how many spouses, how many children, grandchildren supported by first EST, then Landmark money? The whole Ponzi scheme sounds like a slyly crafted family business that has served them well. Anybody else out there set up an international business that takes in money while staffing itself with many unpaid volunteers and only some elite paid staff? What a business model. Erhard’s temper tantrums in the video express his contempt because he knows he’s using people and looks down on them for letting themselves be used: C-U-L-T. Love the definition here given of looking to the leader to see how he’s living in order to determine if it’s a cult. One guy we all have heard of did not himself found a cult, from stable to donkey ride into Jerusalem. Some of his followers-that’s another story.
Just wanted to clarify - near the end of the livestream I questioned in chat whether the author of the book Brian mentioned was the same Margaret Sanger of eugenics “fame” (horrible human being) and she is NOT. Margaret Singer is the author, my apologies, totally different person.
Margaret Sanger deserves condemnation for eugenics, but she also championed women's bodily autonomy and birth control, so for that I acknowledge her contribution. We must learn this distinction. e.g. Future people will look back on us and find much to criticize. Even though many of us were on the right side of most positions.
@@scofah Yes, she was a mixed bag. So are we all.
No. It's Margaret Thaler Singer, not Margaret Sanger. The name of her book is "Cults In Our Midst." I have it and would recommend reading it.
Thank you for that clarification!
@@kimberlygabaldon3260 yes thanks!! I googled her afterwards to check. I see some good UA-cam videos I’ll have a watch of this weekend, cheers.
I love the vivid share around the Forum's opportunity! It's a way of being!
I had only the briefest of contacts with both scientology and Landmark, but it was obvious that Landmark was imitating many aspects of scientology.
That's really interesting regarding the "get off of phase". That phrase was really popular in general in theb early 70's and I'm sure into the 80's. I can remember my mother even using it on us kids when we would try to convince her of something. As in " I really did study for that test i just nearly flunked" This was a really commonly used phrase, at least in the Bay Area. So maybe we just had more hippie culture. It's interesting that Landmark kept it in usage. But I'll bet it started with EST and Werner just applying it there.
This was a great podcast.❤
A roommate convinced me to go to an Intro to the Forum back around 1993. (Must have been a Tuesday night after my roomie took the course.) The leader of the small group handed out papers for us to fill out with our names, phone numbers, etc. I filled mine out mine without guidance and the leader overly praised me as if I had just learned to write. Awkward love bomb. No thanks.
My cousin is in that cult, which if anything is a cult, that's one.
It is.
Cults need a charismatic leader and they separate people from their families. Landmark does not have a charasmatic leader and it brings families together. It can't be a cult.
@@AndreAngelantoni You're stipulating a definition, which excludes this group that otherwise acts like a cult. And it's not clear that Werner Ehrhardt is not still an infallible charismatic figure from the video around which the group revolves.
@@abmindprof Well, I can share a bit more because Brian is just learning some things that seem to be throwing him off.
Yes, Werner is still consulting with the company he built. Yes, he is earning a royalty because he invented the intellectual property and that's how he derives his income.
There is nothing wrong with any of that. Inventors should get credit (and royalties) for their work. For some reason, that Brian is just discovering this now is throwing him off. Without having a conversation with him, I don't know why. But millions of companies set up these sorts of business arrangements. And many (most?) of those millions of companies don't disclose the private financial structure. Complaining about that seems, well, out of touch with the business world.
As for Werner being charismatic, he is indeed that. But the interaction between Werner and the company is limited to participation in the Research and Development Team and the occasional in-person event. This is far from an everyday sort of role and he certainly never comes into the office.
And that's the thing about Brian: this appears to be the only company he's worked with for any length of time as an adult.
- He doesn't know that every effective sales department works with quotas/goals.
- He doesn't know that it's common when someone in sales isn't performing to shorten the management time until they get back in their groove. It's often called "buying your freedom"-a terrible expression but that's how effective sales teams work. People who are having trouble get coaching to improve.
- He also doesn't get that the most powerful way of having people purchase a product is via a personal recommendation. A personal recommendation means that the person doing the recommending is putting their credibility on the line-the most powerful endorsement. Every company wants the level of customer satisfaction that their customers do what Landmark customers do-sharing it with people in their life. He wants Landmark not to do that anymore, which is absurd. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the marketing and sales cycle.
And he doesn't get all these things because he has worked virtually nowhere else. He has no reference and no training in sales and marketing. He fundamentally doesn't get that Landmark is actually a high-performing organization. In fact, their business consulting arm teaches other companies how to operate in a high-performing way.
@@AndreAngelantoniit sounds like you didn’t really listen to, or believe, Brian’s experience. He said he got thrown against a wall, that he was guilted and called for example “a fat, lazy, f-word” and told he has no integrity for not getting tasks done on time. That he was working 70-90 hours a week and being paid next to nothing (while working for a for-profit company). That there’s constant urgency to do this job that will “save the world”. (Again, working for a for-profit self-help/consulting company) I don’t care what anyone wants to call it, he is describing a toxic, high-control organization.
Landmark needs to get into their dictionary, and look up the meanings of words like "DON'T," and "STOP!!," and they need to learn the distinction and the difference between those words, individually, and the phrase "Don't Stop." And they need to learn that each of those words, or the word "No," is a complete sentence.
Thank you so much for finally covering Landmark. My GF has been watching your channel and I've been wondering when it would come!
I actually did the Wisdom Course of Landmark with Anne Peterson, before that I was close to leaving Landmark. Anne's rhetoric and teachings/approach saved my "relationship" with Landmark but after she left (probably from how the org was wanting her to change her rhetoric), I saw a dark cloud coming. After meeting her replacement and the the rhetoric they were pushing, it sealed the deal on my departure from Landmark and allowed me to become... complete... with the organization.
I'll say that there were a lot of good things that came out of my time with Landmark but I absolutely loved Brian's view/statement about choosing not to support an organization that is taking part in the "negative" things (like when he referred to chick-fil-a. EDIT: But like mfort9997 said, the forum advanced and SELP is an amazing segment that can help with removing barriers in any ventures (personal or professional). But, Landmark is not the only pathway to these successes.
At first, i thought i saw some positives, too, but had heard much of it before. In the end, my privacy was so egregiously violated that i don't consider anything in their programs to be worth that.
I appreciate Aaron’s interview style where there’s barely any interruptions and asks relevant questions - Dodge Landesman literally won’t let someone talk for 5 seconds without butting in
Tim Mills from Harmonic Atheist is one of my favorite interviewers (people who have de-converted). He does speak up quite a bit, but his input is charming and he includes a lot of coherence and presence when he does interject.
Great interview Aaron! You had thoughtful questions and comparisons, but mostly let Brian tell his story. Brian is an excellent speaker and seems like a lovely person. Brian, if you are reading the comments, please do start a channel! Brian seems to want to help other people and a channel might do that and also help himself to keep processing his experiences and feelings around them.
Landmark (as a consumer): the best parts of Scientology.
Good to see you Brian. This interview was so great. I 100 percent am aligned with the constant failed re-invention having to have wellbeing honored and to end the pressure for measures. I always wondered why no 2:07:22 one was looking at the fact that Werner suffered from chronic fatigue. For years. What is sad is that the actual technology is so wonderful and if that work is honored people would be drawn and not have to have the endless slavish march for measures
Brian appears to be lovely person who is travelling the long path to peeling off the layers of his cult. I think your discussion with him opened him up to some new ideas. Good job Aaron
Landmark, I know you're reading this. When you guys decided to ignore all the contributions former LF leader Anurag Gupta was suggesting for you, thats When your insularity began to kick you in the ass. When it takes years for a radio interviewer to get an interview with one of your landmark forum leaders because you have to make sure that they're not going to hold the company in a negative light, it just occurs as squirrely. Why don't you invite everyone in to see what you're really doing? If Ann's book and interviews like this with Brian don't get you to begin to use your own technology on yourself, then we're all just going to be looking at you like chemotherapy: It works, But there are so many better alternatives now. I'm glad you're freaking out now. If you continue along a PR path that includes damage control all the time like you have been, And you keep losing leaders you trained, The sad thing is it really will come to an end. I loved the company once as an IL, but the legacy it's now leaving is gross because of Harry and Joans leadership. It's time for them to look at what they don't know they don't know.
I went to an intro meeting as a courtesy to my friend who had gotten sucked in and had been commanded to recruit. I got SUCH a creepy feeling there. They attempted to break me down emotionally so they could manipulate me. I could not get out of there fast enough. I saw a cult expert describe this as the most dangerous cult in the U.S.
lol
Before Landmark there was est, also known as Werner Erhart and Associates. I was a member from 1979 to 1983, went thru all their training, was a logistics team leader and seminar logistics supervisor. You learned to think like Erhart, and I ended up finding myself homeless and unskilled. Took me quite a while to get over it and learn to live in the real world.
You should be interviewed by Aaron and in the channel cults to consciousness
Fantastic interview, love from the 🇬🇧
Ohh I grew up in a landmark family. Ill watch this when ive got the time to properly enjoy it. Ill be back ❤
i did the landmark forum when i was 18. i was very impressionable but it definitely transformed me and changed my life path immediately , for the better. i am forever grateful for the person who recommended it to me. that said, it was very cult-ish, and can see how it can suck someone in to ‘waste’ their life trying to achieve the mission. very interesting conversation, thanks for sharing Aaron!
- Harry
This is absolutely fascinating to me. I took Landmark Forum (and then Advanced and then Wisdom and a couple of extra seminars) back in 2005 in NYC. Sophie was my Forum leader. The hilarious thing is that I was a fully indoctrinated Jehovah's Witness at that time (not anymore, thank God!) so I made it my mission to "enroll" everyone in Landmark into Bible studies with Jdubs ans I enrolled multiple Jdubs into Landmark. It was like "Inception: multi-level cults!" Agh! Crazy times.
Have you interviewed anybody who left Avatar? Thats a Landmark "squirrel" that I almost wasted more money on.
An old girlfriend was involved with Landmark. She invited me to an open house at the conclusion of a weekend seminar. Listening to the way they described the program, and how it "changes your outlook on life," I decided it wasn't for me. First of all, the cost and their justification for the cost was a tie between a Tony Robbins seminar and an AMWAY sales pitch. (the only people getting rich are the organizers)
I told them it sounded a little too much like "Dianetics" and left.
Overall a great interview. Very thought provoking.
Sure, you COULD go to the Landmark Forum, OR you could just watch the first episode of Mad Men; "It's Toasted...".
Also, if you leave early when they say they will give you your money back? They DON'T!