Let's Talk About Behringer.
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- 0:00 Intro
3:27 The Clones
10:17 Antagonism
19:52 Wasted Potential
My Instagram: https:/ jorblovesgear
Mackie Lawsuit : reverb.com/news/the-true-stor...
Boss Lawsuit : www.gearjunkies.com/2005/03/b...
Some images from : synthanatomy.com/
Modulargrid : www.modulargrid.net
Oberheim Trademarked: musictech.com/news/music/us-p...
Oberheim Returned : www.musicradar.com/news/behri...
Media Sued : cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-th...
Forum Sued : www.factmag.com/2018/06/20/be...
Cork Sniffer : www.vice.com/en/article/wxe7qx/a-major-synth-company-created-this-fake-product-to-attack-a-journalist
Benn's Twitter : / bennjordan
Loopop's Twitter : / loopopmusic
Somehow I still don't feel like I touch on everything I should have, or gave anything enough attention. Don't feel well informed enough on their factory city / its working conditions so I left that out, along with not knowing enough about their unique relationship with a few huge retailers to even know where to start. - Фільми й анімація
God, I love Uli!!!
Pinning this, good luck 😭😂😭😂😭😂
His name is Uli and he loooooooves gear.
God doesn't love Uli though!!
But Roland told me you loved them better?
On first glance Uli is ticking all the boxes
I find it weird that a massive corporation is painting themselves as a small indie going against massive companies when its the complete opposite
I think it's silly because artists constantly paint themselves as working class heroes constantly, even when coming from the upper or middle class. So it's almost like Behringer has an obligation to follow.
Why is that weird? Every business practices BS marketing. Its how they make money bro. Corporates....
It's time for Teenage Engineering to release expensive clones of Behringer instruments.
Roland put OP-1's Tombola in the SH-4d. Why? I don't know.
Which non-cloned Behringer products do you have in mind?
Hands down the best Behringer commentary video I have seen.
Appreciate that, cheers
"Why are you like this?"
Jorb's observations about their absurd attempts to frame themselves as underdogs standing against the fuddy duddy establishment are keen, and it's especially bizarre when they attack the commentariat. People who examine gear for a living are perforce insiders, sure, but ffs behringer is a multinational corporation.
One thing to also note - Behringer has been difficult with retailers as well. Only super-sized retailers are permitted to sell the gear only if they carry the full product line, which is impossible for many smaller shops.
I've noticed also, but if I didn't agree with Behringer or dislike them I wouldn't know
Are you a small shop owner?
That’s what Gibson was doing to independently owed retailers in the mid 2000s. They told these retailers that if they wanted to remain an authorized Gibson dealer, then they had to also carry their custom shop models that only dentists and lawyers can afford
This was a strategic move on Gibson’s part to rid themselves of these smaller dealers… that way they could sell out completely to guitar center. And the rule stands to this day - if you want a Gibson guitar, you must get it from guitar center, or it’s subsidiaries, like musicians friend
@@Steve-of8zoBehringer??? You mean… “boog”??? 😂
I think your stance is really how a lot of people feel about Behringer. Most of us want to support the good aspects but then they keep pulling these stunts and people are becoming aware of their history of unethical business practices. Very objective and well thought out Jorb.
🙏🙏Much appreciated fam, thanks for watching
The Minority feel about Behringer you mean.
"unethical business practices" the vast majority of all corporations including ones that make Synths have awful practices they just hide them better than Behringer
Amazing video Jorg!
I’m from South Africa - it’s often alienating to watch the discourse surrounding Behringer dominated by people with way more disposable income.
It’s so refreshing to hear your very balanced, empathetic stance.
Separating their ‘clones’ of vintage from their ‘clones’ of pieces still in production.
I really agree with everything you’ve said.
And as someone who builds and has used open source designs because I couldn’t afford to buy. behringer using that narrative of democratising is heartbreaking.
I am a poor person, sometimes Behringer is a needed evil. I wanted an 808, that was fully analog.....nothing besides the Behringer was even close to affordable.
@@fortheloveofnoise9298 Is a cheap hardware 808 a "need"?
@@warpigs330 Benn Jordan makes the argument that it's not; and I absolutely agree; but I have people getting at my throat on reddit for "wanting to gatekeep what is a need and that you don't need to make music anyway". I'm a bit tired of this shit.
My favorite synth is the Sequential Take 5. That’s all I want to say.
I LOVE mine, too! I recently got rid of a Prophet Rev 2, because between the Take 5 and the Pro 800 (and to a lesser degree, the Pro 1), I felt I had too much I liked in that territory better - the Take 5 is so fucking versatile, and both it and the 800 have a better raw sound. I'm not saying the Rev 2 is a bad synth by any means, I did love it, and sitting down and making patches on it before the buyer came to pick it up almost had me changing my mind, but I think of it as a good bread and butter synth for people who don't own dozens of other synths. I ended up using the funds toward a Trigon 6, which I am SO in love with - it just sounds so smooth, and I haven't been able to get a bad sound out of it. Sequential is truly a great company.
I can justify things like the Poly D (and the upcoming Pro-16, though that's a tougher one because I'm such a Sequential fanboy, and I have actually been considering buying a real Prophet 5/10 Rev 4) because I don't think anybody who already planned to spend $5,000+ on a real deal minimoog is really going to be swayed by it - for those people, nothing else but the real thing would do - nor would most people considering buying it likely be willing to spend that kind of money for one anyway (to me, while the minimoog is a classic, I wouldn't have ever spent $5,000 to own such a basic synth, so if there'd never been a Poly D, nobody would have made a cent more off me - I just would have to live without it).
The keybed on the Take 5 is soo much better than the older Sequential synths. And it sounds soo nice compared to the Rev2.
I think it's because the presets on the Take 5 are drenched with effects unlike on the Rev2 which to my ear have one or two effects layered.
@@raul0ca unlike many synths, I’ve never once regretted my T5 purchase!
@@RishPanjeetJrI didn't say I regretted it. It's an amazing synth. I think when we start our synth journey we try out different things and occasionally change things out. Don't hate me when I say I'm selling it to try out a Korg Nautilus haha
When I was in elementary school, I was a Lego elitist. I couldn’t stand Mega Bloks. One day, I was complaining about Mega Bloks to a fellow Lego enthusiast, and his response blew my 3rd-grade mind. He said “You should love Mega Bloks, you should be thankful for them! If they didn’t exist, Lego would be the only one and they could charge any price they want!”
I don’t know enough about Behringer to judge their business strategy and practices, and I can’t comment on the quality of their products. However, from the strict perspective of a consumer under capitalism, their existence is a positive influence on me. At the very least, their cheaper alternative products incentivize the next original product to be more affordable.
The real issue here is capitalism, it’s always capitalism
I know it is very popular to talk about the virtues of competition, but I don't believe it is that simple. In lots of areas competition actually hurts innovation. That Lego could charge whatever they wanted if there was no Mega Blocks simply isn't true. In Norway where I am from there was no Mega Blocks when I was a kid. Lego didn't charge whatever they wanted. If you charge too much you wont make any sales. Even a monopolist cannot charge whatever they want. Especially not for something like a toy which isn't a requirement for anyone to live.
In Norway we had several state run monopolies which go privatized. There was pros and cons to that. The prices dropped but so did the innovation. They could no longer maintain large R&D departments which was possible due to higher prices. With competition prices got pushed down too much to be able to afford expensive R&D.
You can see similar with the Apple clones in the 90s. It didn't lead to innovation. It lead to lower prices but it almost sank Apple as a company. The clones didn't innovate much. And you can see this with modern Apple. They charge a premium but they are also more innovative than their PC competitors.
Back to Synth modules. These tiny outfits of may just one or two people making innovative modules do this as a passion. It isn't like they are creaming the market. When you are a small outfit producing units by hand you cannot sell cheap to make ends meet. A company like Behringer is driving these little guys out of business or hindering them from growing into anything of size. The money they loose is money they could have spent on R&D or expanding.
Subject matter of this video completely aside, integrity seems to have gone missing in the world or 'people/companies/etc.' jump in and out of integrity as it suits them. Watching your video shows you have integrity. No judgies, putting forth how you feel, in an open and honest format/forum. Thank you. Never forget who 'You' are.
Common sense and consideration also..
I'm sorry to hear you have some negative feelings when you think about your deepmind videos. When I saw your videos I was so amazed at how good your programming was and how well you understood the synth. So much so that i bought a deepmind12. Anyway, regardless of anything, your deepmind12 work is awesome and I thank you for it.
I'm still proud of them, and I consider that very high praise. Cheers 🙏🙏
I've never heard him have anything but still have praise for the Deepmind. He even says in this vid a few times that he holds it in high esteem. If anything, he's saying that it's so good that that is the kind of thing that Behringer SHOULD be focusing on. I mean, they ALREADY have an awesome multi-effects unit in that thing, so why aren't they incorporating it in other units (other than the XR-18 and X-32 I mean, which are awesome)?
@@JorbLovesGear I discovered you because of your deepmind videos. Incredibly helpful, and I still refer back to them from time to time.
This (allegedly) is an awesome video🤟🏻 intelligent points balanced with empathy. Rock on bro❤️
Thanks king, much appreciated
I love what Behringer has been trying to do with making synthesizers affordable... but this whole social media thing has really lost me. They need to sack whoever has been making these decisions on their press and marketing.
yeah, I hopped to the comments to say this exact thing. It's really frustrating, because I love that synths/music are more accessible to the masses, but the behavior of the company is a problem.
sack Uli Behringer? 😛
Unfortunately it looks like you need to sack Uli, because things he has been saying personally track a little too closely to the whole shit show even if it isn't a 100% coverage.
And nobody has the power to sack Uli.
It starts right at the top
There's plenty of options for affordable synths without dealing with such a terrible, aggressive, dishonest company.
Awesome video Jorb. It can be a trap to play into the sensational discourse around the company and you avoid all that perfectly. Straightforward commentary and I love how it set the ground rules up front. We watch your channel because of your passion for gear and it inspires us. There’s nothing inspirational about hyperbole from a company claiming to change the world. Thank you and keep on inspiring us!
Great chat about a rough topic. You hit the nail on the head with part 3. And the same goes for all the companies over seas that are making bootleg versions of other items (i deal with mics a lot). If you can put that much effort into putting together a product to match something EXACTLY, how much more (or less) effort would it take to just tweak the design a touch to make the product better or just different, as I don't really believe in "better" or "worse". Most of the bootleg companies stay under the radar but BGR wants to inflate their chest and pound on it like they "did something" we should all be in awe of. The DIY community has been cloning for decades and its a bit of a written and unwritten rule of sorts that you don't clone, then try to commercially release something. It's a shame that company that has all the potential in the world has decided to take a narcissistic approach to doing business with the world. Thanks for the video!
Great video, I like that the volca sample is just there chillin
Contrast Behringer with a company like Warm Audio, and you'll see a stark difference in two companies known for similar market positions. Difference is one is thoughtful about what they copy.
Jorb gettin spicy! Lemme grab my popcorn 🍿 - jk, I appreciate how well thought out this was. This might be one of the most well articulated videos on why Behringer rubs so many the wrong way. "just because it's legal doesn't mean it doesn't suck" WELL SAID.
This is so insanely well-said. I've been working on an essay about a specific Behringer product and you so perfectly said what I've been looking for the words for. Bravo.
I'd also like to point out that their actions backfire in that they are taking that random, disorganized diaspora of synth youtubers and is slowly bringing them together.
good point, the union meetings are about to heat up
I've owned a handful of behringer gear.
The only thing they've made that I think is worth owning is the deep mind.
My disdain for this company has only grown exponentially.
That said, I'm not exactly sure what I'll do when their Jupiter clone is finished. Probably won't buy it but it'll be interesting to see how they build it.
Unless that was their plan all along!! Cue Uli Facebook post in ten years taking credit for building the UA-cam synth community by consolidating hate toward his company 😂😂😂
They're also shooting themselves in the foot if their business model puts the companies they steal from out of business.
Red Means Recording had a great take on this. Instead of accepting (or demanding) to keep the demo unit, he suggested that a flat monetary fee would be paid to the reviewer, exactly for the reasons you listed; (time, cost of materials, etc).
Thanks for the heads up, the info from Ben, BoBeats and you. People I actually trust, is enough for me to know that I wont deal with a company going after people, suing them, and making products using other peoples hard work.
i know the people that get weird and psycho when you call out behringers nonsense it makes no sense to me.
Ive been following and admiring their products for years, and couldn't understand their recent posts. thanks for enlightening me!
Brilliantly put: a very thoughtful take on their shenanigans.
Well this is some refreshing content! Very well thought out and articulated, and brave of you to form an opinion on this and not just do a news post about it.
cheers, thanks for listening
I still like Behringer even while I don't disagree with most of your takes. I would love to see them behave different. Better. But at the same time I am profoundly grateful for the tools they've put in my hands, and that I use regularly. Profoundly grateful.
Same here
Same and honestly, a woke person who is bored running their mouth.
yeah I mean I would love them to behave better but honestly, not everyone can casually drop a thousand or two here or there on gear and the ability to affordably spend on things that I would not otherwise have access to in the end can kind of trump them just being general jerks.
Nice man - you always hit things just the right way!
I'm old... I've been messing around with audio gear for a long time and it's often been Behringer because that was what I could afford. It's always let me down.... always.
The older rack kit, compressors, the ada8000, etc, that had cheap PSUs which would get fried.
The digital mixer DDX3216 (genuinely a really nicely design unit) that failed and when sent for repair most of the capacitors weren't soldered in
The brand new XR18 which literally went up in smoke the night before a gig
The DI boxes which seem to made out of egg shells
The euro series analogue mixers that usually had dead channels out of the box
The TD-3 that didn't output any sound.....
The X32 Racks that barely last a year - one organisation i worked for went through so many they didn't even bother with warranty, just gave up and bought something that worked.
Behringer's gear is bad. the quality of their manufacturing and QA is bad. But that isn't nearly as bad as the blatant ripping off. They've done this since inception. Early compressors were cheap clones of small companies that couldn't afford to sue. It all leaves a very bad taste and it's upsetting these fundamentally terrible business practices have served Behringer well enough to be able to buy up all the big names.
I disagree to a certain point. I have an x32-2nd gen for 7 yrs and it’s never been serviced and it was used a lot when I purchased. I have x32c, m32c, 2- s-16 stage boxes, 2-dl 32 stage boxes and 2- sd16 stage boxes. All still work and have not let me down. Now, I have read multiple comments that the service department is total crap. Turn around time is horrible etc.. Never experienced it yet but if gear starts going south, I will be switching to Allen & heath gear. It’s cheap and I made my money back on investment so I can’t complain
@@rossberning6538yeah and that’s all perfectly fair. It sounds like you’ve had a great run with that gear and I doubt it owes you anything. I seem to have been remarkably unlucky. Of course the other problem with B’s gear is the whole race to the bottom… everyone else has to compete so they either cut costs or, like Midas, end up getting bought out by Behringer
Make Noise Maths - £289. Behringer Abacus - £99.99. Personally I am totally fine with this, modular is really expensive and that is a high barrier for entry.
Yes there is VCV rack, but I think the argument of 'oh theres free software' isn't really applicable when discussing pure hardware. Majority of modular users/enthusiasts are here for the hardware and hardware only.
The purists with money to burn will always buy Maths and won't even think of 'tainting' their rack with the 'inferiour' Behringer clone.
But people like me with less income to burn on setting up a small rack, the price difference is huge and enables me to set up a rack with some of the big hitters (expensive) and still have the bank to include one/two of the clones, it's thanks to this that i'm even able to experience these modules as setting up a full rack of the OG stuf, even a small one is way too expensive (£800 plus).
Ok, so nuanced comment: I agree with everything you've said about them being bad actors in many situations. I also like the fact that they offer some original equipment at much lower prices than their competitors (Ultragain ADAT interface is awesome). I'd like to point out something specific to open source stuff. When companies (like MakeNoise) release something under an OSI approved license they understand the devil's deal they are taking. They are putting their stuff out there in the hope that it will improve the lives of users and developers with little to no hindrance. They also know that bad actors can profit off this, and they somewhat rely on the good nature / positive PR / game theory aspects of this deal to eventually end up with the overall community being better off. This is something that happens rarely enough in audio world for it to be something that people get riled up about. In general software world it's common. All the big companies are using open source code in their products. Some are good about giving back time and resources, some are just leeches, some are both. Microsoft and Google are currently probably much better than Apple at being good Open Source citizens. I can guarantee that in the music world, Korg, Roland, Native Instruments, Arturia, Yamaha, Ableton, and pretty much any other company you want to name are using open source software in their code bases and providing almost nothing back to the original developers. This is unfortunate, but it's not anything that the original developers didn't see coming. They're operating on the not so implausible belief that, at some point, one of these companies *will* provide some time and effort to improve the code, and they will push it upstream. This would then improve the software for all involved. It's rare, but it happens, and those that develop open source stuff are aware of this fact. They'd prefer it happened much more often, but they're idealists and they're generally happy with whatever they can get.
Disclaimer: Almost all the code I write is open source, and almost all the code-bases I submit changes to are open source. I don't do this for money, I do it because I want nice things to exist.
I really wish there would be some companies making open source products and firmwares. Often I think to myself that some gear has so much more potential than is used, because companies often focus on churning out new products instead of supporting and improving existing ones. Korgs logue SDK was a nice discovery for me in that regard, but there are so much more opportunities. Let alone MIDI controllers could benefit vastly from this. For example, the build quality and interface of the Arturia Keystep is wonderful - yet it's actually capabilities are still quite limited by the firmware. I actually recently discovered that there is a cool custom firmware for the Elektron Machinedrum (while dreaming/searching of a way to make polyphonic midi sequencing happen on the Elektron Model:Samples). I remember there being a small hack for the OP-1 too. Another very honorable mention is the TherapSID from Twisted Electrons: the entire firmware is open source! I understand that this is probably harder and more risky for a company, but ultimately I hope things will go in that direction. All of this reminds me of the videogame console homebrew scenes, where people show again and again that there's always so much more to gain from products if customers truly can own their hardware (which mostly happens unwillingly from companies perspective of course).
edit: Oh I forgot to mention trash80 (maker of the dirtywave m8). That project shows how much can be achieved my individuals.
glad I watched the whole thing. thank you for all your videos 🙏🏽
Thank you for presenting this all in a rational, measured, and non-antagonistic/non-adversarial manner, and for staying above the fray. I have my own opinions, most of which I'll keep to myself (not because I agree or disagree, but because I simply don't want to get into it). But, I will say that I've felt the same way about "the clones" for some time. Cheers!
I hope this goes viral, well played
They could sit on discontinued equipment and make their money. There is no reason to steal current IP and attempt to trademark the last names of creator’s literal names. Makes me sick.
They are indeed assholes. People who work in their “city” are overworked, in poor conditions.
@@sub-jec-tivThat argument comes up a lot but without the ability to compare to other companies' working conditions is worthless and seems biased.
@@sub-jec-tiv Yeah, just like almost everybody else who works.. And even more so in third world countries - which nearly every western company exploits somehow
Here's a bucket to hurl into!
🪣
As a poor mudician, I dont mind them "stealing" current IPs that I could never buy lol
Very much to the point. You are great in articulating your opinion and I totally agree 👏 Thanks for taking the time to inform people. I hope this will lead to more people choosing to spend their money to support passionate companies and individuals that invest in R&D.
This issue of corporate greed is a problem and not just in the synth world. That's why I commend you for taking a stance as we all should against corporate overreach.
Beringer operates like the unholy combination of a supervillain, a politician, a cult, and a business - eyeing world domination.
Might be more fun than blackrock😂
New bond film; " A. I. SYNTH IN TYME" 2026...
sounds like Trump Organisation ;-)
@@logemann74 OR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION....
@@logemann74 tds is real lol
You inspired me to get my DeepMind 12. I bought your Juno 106 bank for the DeepMind 12. It’s still an exciting synth. What a shame that corporate greed and unscrupulousness could taint what should be a good thing for everyone. I’m looking to trade in gear for a new purchase, and my local retailer told me they distance themselves from Behringer. I don’t blame them, but again-what a shame, because the DeepMind 12 is a good piece of affordable kit that you did good work on.
But keep doing you. Kudos, brother.
🙏🙏🙏
Fantastic summary of the situation. Loved the Majora's Mask section titles ❤
Thank you for clearing this up and sharing it.
Behringer is not the only one who "copied" the open source Mutable stuff. There is a reason why Emilie made them OPEN SOURCE. That means it's free for all. I don't understand why everyone gets their panties in a bunch over it.
The only condition Mutable had is not to use their trade dress and trademarks. Which fair game Behringer respected. Other than that, it's fair game. Open source means anyone can make their version of it. Express permission from the original developer. So what gives?
I watched Deadringer make mistake after mistake for years (ever since they unsuccessfully sued DSI and 20 random people on GS for posting their opinions back in 2017). Frankly things haven't improved since then. Spot on video and great job of laying out the facts surrounding all the controversy. Liked and subscribed. Full disclosure, I own an MS-01 and love it.
it was the sync clap at the end for me... oh and the content of the video was on point too.
HA, cheers Ken, appreciate you watching.
Nicely set out. I don't like the idea of the synth community being intentionally divided over this.We already have enough divisions. Analogue is better than digital.
🍿
Ooooo bitchy cats ! 😂😂😂 But your right !
People do this with everything and it drives me crazy. Saying one thing is better than something else. A less violent way to say it is “I like analogue better than digital” nobody can effectively argue with what you like.
@@mattuskamusicAre you developing @markgriffiths5122's argument further or are you complaining about his last statement being absolutistic? Because, actually, I think "analog is better than digital" was just an example for unhealthy divisions, not his opinion.
sigh. It was a joke. I talk seriously about not dividing the community and then make a sweeping hack comment that undercuts that statement. I thought by now everyone realised that the "analogue vs digital" & "hardware vs software" arguments were shown to be pointless back in the 2000s if not before and now have achieved the status of a in community joke.
It's weird that they try to claim this monopoly on affordable synths when korg, novation and arturia all make affordable products that are also original designs.
I too draw the line at Behringer’s clones of current products. And by current I don’t mean Minimoogs and 808s, but Keysteps, Mother 32s, Maths, Marbles, and what have you. Behringer’s clones of these products serve only to stifle innovation.
With all that said I have a Model D, a Pro-1 and an RD-8, and these are products that I applaud Behringer for bringing to market. Affordable clones of these defunct-but-desirable designs have been low-hanging fruit for synth makers for a long time, and since nobody owns their designs any more, I applaud Behringer for making them available for realistic prices.
As for the drama between Behringer and “influencers”, I think Uli’s crew have painted themselves into a corner. When Behringer attempts to rob companies like Arturia (did anyone really think the Keystep was too expensive?) as well as Moog and boutique manufacturers like Make Noise, how can anybody in the synth community be expected to think that’s cool?
It’s a step too far, UA-camrs have pushed back in droves, and now Behringer is making up stories about a lack of free evaluation gear being the cause of the lack of coverage of their gear.
If Behringer really “hears” us, they should discontinue their products that directly copy the small businesses that are innovating. Crave, Edge, Swing, and other products that challenge our ethics have got to stop. In time, maybe the influencers would even forgive them and, faced with some new compelling original products, start reviewing their gear again.
And don't ever ask anything related to an issue with their gear on their FB pages or their employee Jamie Monroe comes and tells you that you are wrong or to not ask questions about your user experience.. my RD-8 gets to 130°f on the top after 30-45 minutes of playing it and all i wanted to know was if this is common or do i have a faulty product.
Fantastic video! Very well put!
If you don’t mind my curiosity:
Which synths did you have issues with and what were they? Did your deep mind develop problems??
Keep up the great content!
100% agree! Arturia keystep clone was the one that made me go: I am never buying behringer. That product is just so disgusting.
There are hundreds of midi controllers on the market, yet every brand has their own design and vision about what is a good midi controller. Then there is Behringer who takes the most successful product and steals the design. That is just pathetic and should not be allowed. Do your own R&D.
Arturia is best known for what? Yes making software clones of vintage synths!
@@lundsweden For synths people want that signature sound, so I understand that. What is the reason to make a exact copy of a midi controller? It doesn't have a sound, it is just a utility tool. They could have changed the shape of buttons, layout, enclosure or do anything at all but they deliberately made it as close as possible to the original so that people know it is a clone. They want to ride on the success of other products instead of trying to make a new one.
Also software and hardware are very different things. I wouldn't be happy if Arturia made a physical Jun6 clone that would be 100% identical to the original. But well they won't do it, they have their own unique hardware synths.
@@cirisirpula152 Companies outside the synth world have been making clones for years. In the phone world everyone thinks every manufacturer copied the iPhone, but the LG Prada looked similar and was released first.
Don't be stupid
The keystep copy is the least troubling for me, the difference in price is too small to make it worthwhile getting the knock off.
Brilliant commentary Jorb. I was excited to be able to buy the Model D clone for such a great price. It highlighted the OTT price Moog charge. At the time this seemed like a win. Unfortunately after a year it just stopped working. Sadly I binned it because I wasn’t aware of the three year warranty. I have never had another piece of gear fail this way. Few of us can just go out and casually buy any synth, regardless of the price bracket it falls into. 99% of us have to budget and save for each purchase, even if it is a Behringer synth. The £299 I paid for the Boog is still not a disposable amount so the purchase was a false economy.I hope UB watched your vid to the end. Behringer could be a great synth company. For some reason they choose to be the opposite whilst allowing other manufacturers to take all the risks. Playing and owning synths is a pleasurable experience. I don’t and won’t contribute to the profits of a Behringer because my conscience would get in the way. Owning a huge company and being very wealthy must be great but when you look at what behaviours typify Behringer it wouldn’t be something I would attach my name to.
glad I learned that lesson in 2003 with a behringer mixer, never again after three replacement power supplies failed due to a bad component in the mixer.
@@screamingstrings76 hear hear. Long before any of this synth drama stuff, I saw someone trying to fix just such a mixer... he found-out it was so cheap inside he'd be better-off buying a whole new decent mixer, rather than trying to upgrade the Behringer's components.
Really good video and very well thought out.
I think you make a great points.
Well presented. Your points were valid. I'm one who was thankful for the Behringer clones, as my hobbyist budget would not extend to restored original synths. In fact, I sold my original Korg MS10 and bought the K-2 for the improved connectivity and form factor. The Keystep clone was a gut punch, as it was uncalled for. The System 55 clones got me into Eurorack, so again I appreciate clones of unaffordable systems, but I totally agree that sniping current issue modules like Maths is likely to hurt the Behringer brand. My last purchase was the Moog Studio, because I was willing to spend the extra to have the original, rather than the Behringer copies. The Swing 32 was a big part of that decision.
Your Deepmind patches are part of the reason I use the DM so much. Thank you.
Happy to hear that, cheers
The JX3P patches inspired multiple tracks of mine.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience- great video! I’ll add a few thoughts here to the mix. First, I completely agree that copying products from small companies sucks… whereas just making nice modern replicas of vintage synths can be valuable to the music scene. I really love the MonoPoly and was considering buying the B- version until I saw the copy of Maths. … It would be one thing if B- reached out to these companies and offered to pay a commission or partner to leverage their manufacturing empire to make the products available at lower prices. Open source modules like Mutable are another topic. They are open- but makers like OS from Expert Sleepers have the decency to reach out and ask permission to include modules like Plaits and Rings in Disting EX. And I think that’s what this whole conversation comes down to… community, culture, and decency. I too would love to see B- put their massive resources towards innovation, and towards building a better culture rather than copying the most profitable ideas of other people.
Love the conclusion at the end. Community, culture, decency.
It's really an enclosure of the commons, I suppose. We've been keeping the resources open for the community, and now someone comes along putting-up fences like "well I can, so I shall".
Absolutely on point! You'll always have my subs
Excellent commentary on the Behringer issue. Well done!
I SO appreciate this video. My first hardware synth a few years ago was the Crave. I knew so little about synths that I didn't know it was a clone of Mother-32. As I learned more and more the last couple years about Behringer I just started hating that thing in my studio. Not to take some big public stance, no one else needed to know that I have it. But I just despise what they are about - ripping off the smaller companies, and just being sh*tty to everyone for no reason. Dude reminds me of Musk or Trump. Just petty and insulting with a giant ego. So I sold my Crave. Moving on. Much happier to support Dreadbox and Make Noise and Erica and others. Happy to pay a little more if I have to.
Crave was my second after Neutron. They’ve all been replaced on my desk but stuck in boxes. I haven’t sold them because I like holding on to things, and I kinda love how they sound and how much I learned with them.
Its a typical China electronics company. This is totally normal for a China company. Think of it as a cultural understanding or misunderstanding. I'm really happy with the Behringer products I own. I think they could improve their imagine by stopping the strange comment tactics. The constant replying to their own comment tactic gets really annoying whenever you see UA-cam comments. Good products, but poor online conduct.
Your summary in the end is perfect ❤
Finally hit that subscribe button for the ten tons of integrity you've got here. Love what you do.
Thank you!
Something cleared up in my mind by the way you separated the types of clones.
Cheers :D
Happy to hear that, cheers
Along wth Benn Jordan's commentary on the same subject this is another great video commentary on Behringer. I would add something for the Wasted potential part: let's not forget the excellent BCR2000 controller.
Nicely said and done. Balanced.
When a company gets big enough, something happens to their legal department. I don't know whether it is a question of who gets hired for their legal department, a change in the thinking of who is already there, or a change in the way senior management thinks they can and should use their legal department. For example, consider the litigation the Gibson company launched against Paul Reed Smith guitars. After decades of turning a blind eye to the many copies and clones of their flagship products coming out of Asia and elsewhere, Gibson sued PRS for making a guitar model they felt infringed on their trademark. The suit was dismissed, but it was an example of the manner in which a large corporation can turn to their legal department to "fix" a problem that could have been more amicably address much much earlier.
Consider film review. A production house may spend well over $100M making and promoting a film. They send out screeners to reviewers, or hold special press-screenings. The reviewers are not required to say something is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And even when the reviewer generally likes a film, they may point out its weak spots, and/or give it a very modest rating (e.g., 2.5 out of 5 stars) *because* of those weak spots. But it's a gamble the production house takes. No one has any obligation to like the film, or even say so, if they did. Nor do they have any obligation to keep their criticisms of the film's weaknesses to themselves. Indeed, when a company advertises a film intensively and does NOT arrange for advance screenings, you pretty much know that *they* know they have a clunker on their hands.
Thanks for this honest and thoughtful video, Jorb!
I like my pro-800. finally an affordable poly I want. It may not be an exact clone of the real one but it sounds close for me enough as my first Prophet sound goes and on a budget. I would not spent +2k on a synth anyway.
Sometimes B- does good work. For instance, the Neutron is quite innovative and is not a clone from other company’s engineers. But it’s hard to look past a lot of their bullshit, like how they treated Peter Kirn.
@@JeffSepeta Synth wise, I think B has done an outstanding job! There is quite no other company that has achieved so much synth recognition in such a short time and quality with their synths that are solid at a given price point. Sound wise, it's a matter of opinion. Are they clones? Not to me! If you going to make a human clone, for example it better look ~99% the same (preferably identical in every aspect) Per definition it's not the same. I could list a dozen of reasons why I don't see them as clones rather simply inspired by originals.
Every mayor company have some questionable moral issues, many are covered up by lawyers.
We could argue: the reason our country is in economics/social turmoil is because we allowed the corporations to dictate our life to us. They pretend to be our unelected government right now. Do they have morals? Hell no!
I agree Behringer should keep their customer relation department in check
but we should allow freedom of speech and expression too as long as we doesn't
infringe of rights of others and there are repercussions for everting we do. Being butthurt doesn't qualify. We created a nation of snowflakes that need their safe space. Finally, we do need a good laugh in a life that is getting almost impossible to be sane....end of my rambling.
Their Pro 1 & 800 are great, as is their rare synth cloning stuff, but it's their core practice that's dogshit and dirty. If you can deal with the fact that they're trying to put small modular businesses out of business as a wing of their brand, and do direct price cut rips of other peoples products, then the unobtainable clones they do are fine. But you're supporting that business model
@@robertcrystals We have the power, we have the say, they'll listen when their pockets hurt. Stop buying the stuff that doesn't feel right to you...for whatever reason it will sent the message. Problem is us not caring and allowing the corporations run our life as I have said before. The corporate mind set is obliged to its shareholders not an average synth joe, morals not withstanding. we need to WTFU before is too late. I am speaking generally here not only about B.
@@JeffSepeta I don't buy synths because Behringers politics, I buy them to make music. Edge for instance has MIDI, moog doesn't and has more features it's 3 times less. I'm no Behringer fan boy, I own many other brands but if something is good I'll buy it. GO to your local Grocery store and they will have their own brand that's almost 100% identical to the name brand for much lower price, BUT When it comes to Synths and Audio equipment, seems like everything needs to be original. Plus why isn't Roland releasing TR-08 Analog? That's what the people want instead they release some boutique garbage. I own the TR-8s and the MC-707 and I love them. But People want a reissue of the CLASSIC TR-08, Behringer did it twice with the RD-8 and RD-9
Great breakdown of the whole saga, my dude. Hoping “Jorb” isn’t trademarked out from under you now. 😅
oh my god new fear unlocked
@@JorbLovesGearVictimized by Behr-anger.
Oh no - the Jorb Kirnsniffer. Please do a colab with Mr. Kirn on a pedal and let Arturia manufacture it, then play the DM12 through it. Sorry that was silly. I couldn’t help myself.
@@JorbLovesGearJorbSniffer ©™
"To steal": to take (the property of another) without right or permission. To present or use (someone else's words or ideas) as one's own.
"To counterfeit": to imitate something authentic, with the intent to steal, destroy, or replace the original, for use in illegal transactions, or otherwise to deceive individuals into believing that the fake is of equal or greater value than the real thing.
Let's call a cat a cat. Thank you Jorb for expressing your opinion. We can still see, from your precautions, the fear of the repression from B.
Thanks for the great talk.
Consumers should be well informed, more so if a company wants to control the narrative in a way Behringer does.
Pre-ordered a Mini VS Pro months ago, not regretting it, but your critique sure dampen the excitement. :(
Great video. Glad you and your compadres are standing up for yourselves. I stand with you and all my favorite synthtubers with the ethics to stand against such blatant bad business. Cheers!
Probably the grossest part of that SM post was, imo, the implication that "influencers" OWE them cooperation, and deciding not to rent your hard won brand and audience trust to a company whose practices you dislike is somehow deplorable. This cancel outrage crap is ri-doodoo-diculous. It was the free market when you took every design that wasn't nailed down, it's the free market when people turn on you for it. Cuts going both ways.
Not to mention, there's an established pattern of behavior on their part that suggests if you work with them, you don't just owe them coverage, but *favorable* coverage.......or else.
Influencers should buy the stuff and then review thats all
Fr, I didn't read any of that stuff until recently and my first reaction was similar to yours-but mixed with laughter at how childishly whiny a floating corporate logo sounded 🙃
@@pennywise5095 That's much easier said than done. It costs a hefty chunk of change just to make a video about a thing without also having to spend (potentially) several thousand dollars on said thing; so that system would just mean that very wealthy people and those who already have a huge audience are the only ones to get a seat at the table. If you like seeing normal artists jam on the new hotness synths every week or two, they have to be paid for the time and artistry they put in on some level, and Gods know Yt isn't sharing much of that sweet sweet ad money. Even discounting the cost of all the recording gear and technical knowhow to work it, you've got learning a new synth front to back, jamming on it till you have an opinion and footage, hours of video editing (which is a whole other specialty), plus all the channel moderating and administration.
1K comments, awesome Jorb!!
I appreciate you speaking on this! Thanks for sharing!
I own a Deepmind 12, RD-8 and an RD-9 and I like them. They are affordable, they sound good and I don't care what anybody says.
I love my Nuetron, DM12, TB3 and Crave. Is it ethical grey area? Yea. Would I have access to analog gear otherwise, no.
They invested in the ability to manufactur these old chips that other companies refused to do.
If you don’t care you would not have posted this.
@@WithTheGrain Yeah, well, that's just like your opinion, man.
@@WithTheGrain Don't care
@@WithTheGrain you're so much better than us for hating something
I like it that you're basically neutral about your opinions in your reviews that if you're bringing up a negative point, you're not pushing it on to your audience. You're just being a newscaster putting the news out there to the public to form their own opinions out of your video concerning Behringer or any other gear. I love your videos and reviews. The bottom line is that you're not trying to argue or cause an argument. You're just letting us know more about Behringer.
Appreciate knowing you see it that way, cheers
@JorbLovesGear you're very much welcome. I enjoy your videos very much. I'm a gear freak myself and currently own 25 synths myself. 😊 I'm Terry and I love gear. LOL 😊
Not only does Uli not show up to Superbooth but he doesn’t even send minions to superbooth, because they likely would face major hostility. That should tell you how the modular designer community feels about Behringer.
I love how no one in the comments seemed to bother watching the video up to the point in which you categorized the different knockoffs and just thinks you're saying any knockoff is bad.
😅That's how it feels, appreciate the acknowledgement of it
If there's one thing they know how to do, it's getting people to talk about them
No such thing as bad publicity
Very well said man! Our thoughts are so aligned.. I’ve written pretty much the same stuff on my website’s latest article about this whole Behringer situation (also borrowed your Robin Hood analogy since I think it’s to the point). And since yesterday, I’m honestly afraid that if many people write my article I’ll might get sued hahaha. They have become the definition of a bully…
I've loved the deep dives on equipment, but I really love this thoughtful take on this injustice in the industry. So petty and insane.
Ya, I wish they would stick to cloning gear you just. cannot. find. anymore, like the Solina. A Fairlight would be cool.
OK I just wanna say one thing. I love your videos. I watch all your stuff I’m a huge fan, but this cloning instruments goes back to Guitar’s, drums, pianos bases, I mean, the list goes on .There’s so many companies out there that makes or make guitars that look like other legacy style guitars .so for me this is been going on forever I get it And I do own some Behringer stuff. And is it good quality no and does it sound amazing yes. I guess my point is why are we so concerned about what Behringer is doing and not so concerned about how other legacy companies a price gouging people because it’s so-called Handmade? I don’t know I’ll just leave it at that great video by the way.
Yesss, I had a larger "Pedals are built on clones" etc section that I cut down into just the comparison of 3 different clones, and after I highlighted that i cant even evaluate clones on their merits anymore, it felt redundant
@@JorbLovesGear oh yeah, I completely forgot about guitar pedals.
Anyway, great video dude !
The wasted potential is really the horrible part. Here's a massive, vertically-integrated manufacturing powerhouse, and the best they can do is copy designs from much-smaller manufacturers?
Behringer should be the Apple of their industry - building products nobody else can make, leveraging their strengths to push the entire synth world forward. But that's not the Behringer we got.
Uli Behringer: If D(r)ump(h) had cheated his way through an Electrical Engineering degree instead of fleecing the Wharton School for one in business.
I think Deadmau5 saying he hated their gear might have been the final trigger for the company that sent them into the tantrum?
I don't know I'm just some girl who likes gear and companies who aren't dicks
"girl" yeah right lol
I’m going to get a behringer model d as soon as I can. That being said, I’m not as excited or proud to do it, the way I was when I got my Nymphes, or my Drum Brute. Being a working class musician, who does play professionally actually puts you in a weird spot in terms of gear acquisition. It would take me 100 shows to pay for a mini moog. I’d love to but, oof.
"I want affordable tools for my _job"_ hits differently than "I want affordable toys for a hobby that _might_ become a career," which is how most B-fans sound.
Totally agree with every word... There really could have been a different "Behringer" which treated other people with respect and produced products people could love without feeling guilty about it. I own loads of Behringer gear (D, Pro1, System100) but these things are slowing coming out of my rack and being replaced - and there's a reason for that.
Josh - Not sure if you'll see this with the deluge of other comments, but I'll throw this on the pile in hopes you'll respond.
First, thanks for making this video. This is an important conversation. We are a community and because our instruments empower us and inspire us, many of us feel a loyalty to brands that enable us to make the music we do. However, as human beings, we need to weigh the ethics and morality of what it takes to make something and whether we choose to support certain practices.
I'd like to make a distinction that you touched upon in your video. I don't think of the Deepmind nor the Neutron in the same way that I do the clones. These instruments were designed by Midas (owned by Behringer). They are instruments that have been designed and not copied. Sure, they have taken certain inspirational cues from other instruments, but they are their own synths. And, honestly, remarkable and affordable ones at that! I don't feel the same guilt playing or owning those that I would for some of the others.
I think that those two are an important distinction.
There's another distinction that I'd like to make that falls in line with your acknowledgement of the Keystep clone (the Swing) and the current Eurorack clones. I don't have as much of an issue with clones of older instruments no longer in production. The Wasp, the Pro One, and the Cat were kind of a cool idea. Granted, they didn't do the development, but I could see the value in making older instruments available again in a more affordable format. However, the K2 (MS-20 clone), and the Crave (Mother 32) and the Edge (DFAM) were clones (or subtle variations) of instruments currently in production. In particular, the Crave and Edge sell for one-third of the cost of a Mother 32 and DFAM. Considering that those two Moogs were part of their most affordable line of instruments, it must have really hurt the company to have their cost-effective attempts get undercut by two-thirds.
I truly agree that just because something is legal doesn't make it "right." Furthermore, legal isn't necessarily ethical or moral. It's a pretty low bar for humanity. We should be aiming higher.
I would love if we could have a panel at Knobcon next year and discuss these issues intelligently. We can be passionate, but we should focus on universalizing these options and weighing out which truly "work" in a respectful society.
Peace, my friend.
Cheers Ted, all very well said.
Part of me feels that the market has room for both moog and behringer, but thats mostly thinking about the mdoel D. those price ranges are so different I dont think that anyone is really in the market for one or the other.
I hear you with the edge and crave though, i can see someone deciding to save some money for a similar functionality.
Thanks as always, missed you at knobcon this year
@@JorbLovesGear
I missed you and Matt and many others. I had some conflicts this year, but I plan to prioritize being there next year. I hope we can get in another real conversation or two like we did back in 2021.
I agree with your observation on the Model D. In fact, I own one. It was their first synth clone and the price difference was so huge that it was obvious that they were aiming at a different market. I then snagged the Neutron and really loved it. However, it was around that time that I saw the Cork Sniffer video and I took a serious step back.
The way Behringer has lashed out at individuals just isn't the way a responsible company should act. I still plan on getting a Deepmind 12D. Again, that instrument is not just a copy of something else. The integration of the powerful effects and built-in Wi-Fi for programming?!?! The instrument was a true game-changer! And especially a fully-articulated 12-voice analog synth (OSCs, Filters, and VCAs) at that price point is still absolutely mind-blowing!
But the company needs to behave responsibly and respectfully. I can't in good conscience buy a Crave, or and Edge, or a Swing, or any of the Eurorack modules that are copies of others that are currently in production (or their TipTop rack copy).
Again, this is a conversation that needs to take place and we need to look at this in an ethical framework. Kant established the principle of universality. Specifically, if an action cannot be universally applied, then it cannot be justified as ethical. If all synth manufacturers behaved as Behringer, then the industry would fall apart. Without significant R&D and pioneering, and with everyone copying each other, the tools would eventually stagnate and artists would lose interest.
Sure, it wouldn't happen overnight, but it would be a slow poisoning that would eventually kill the industry or cripple it to a point that many would lose interest.
Anyway, I thank you again for making this video and pointing this conversation in the right direction. I hope to keep in touch with you over the next year and truly can't wait to see you next fall!
Long Live Innovation and
Long Live Interfaces!
Peace my friend.
All of your points are well taken. Great video. I love your Deepmind vidoes and the programming lessons, etc. So does this mean that you will no longer present any Behringer products? Sorry if this seems like a silly question.
Cheers thanks.
I won't show them off any more, no. At a minimum, I just don't want to have the comments he a warzone everytime I upload 😅😅
Well done, and good points. I love the fact that they put out discontinued synths. Its great that their prices are low. One of my favorite pieces of kit is the model D. Some of the other stuff they do, cringe. Bottom line for me, im a poor hobbiest, and will probably get more of thier products.
Let's talk about man-buns.
Yeeeaaahhh... After Ben & Jorb's recent videos... I don't think I'll ever pick up Behringer gear.
Honestly makes me feel dirty even owning one, bought a model d a while ago before I knew about any of this… might move it on.
Very well put!! 🙏🏻
I like this video, a couple of things I thought worth mentioning (it'll be brief but it's not meant to be read as curt despite it's brevity 😅):
People you don't like using things you open source for any reason you grant them via license is the part and parcel of being an open source advocate.
The other thing I thought worth mentioning is most of the staff at that company are boots-on-the-ground practitioners working on things they're passionate about (even if they're clones), they have nothing to do with the coo-coo-crazy marketing and I bet they get sad after a long work project where they finally got an affordable minimoog clone to market that people are so dismissive towards it and them, and that's a shame.
Hear! Hear! I feel the same way!😒 THEIR (Behringer Marketing) Strategy NEEDS 2 be done away with -SERIOUSLY! BUT, if they're cloning Open Source -The Originators of said product essentially gave Behringer the 'pseudo-rights' to 'Clone' THEIR creation(s)...
Personally, I'm about gettin' 2 the music -& NOT how I get THERE. If a beat-up VW 'Hippy Van'll get ME where I need 2 go just the same as a Lincoln Continental -I'd rather take the 'Beat-up Hippy Bus'.
I DON'T Agree with ANY of the Behringer Marketing Strategy or their public relations as regards their detractors! However, BOTTOM LINE:
IDGAF about ALL the F*cking Political Conflagration surrounding Behringer & IF They make a product that'll get Me 2 where I NEED 2 Go 4 alot MORE affordably, then I'll Bite-The-Bullet -& take the f*cking 'Beat-up Hippy Bus'!🕊️☮️: Politics Obfuscated Music Is NOT MY THING -PERIOD!😒... NOW -I'mna Go Make Some Music!🌈🎶☯️♾️😇
Yeah, that's not a good feeling. Everything Uli/Elon/Donald touches turns into a flaming pile of ragebait. Anyone who can't make peace with that eventual outcome might need to find a different employer.
P.S. Yes, I'm exaggerating, but I tried to make it inoffensive. 😘
I don't understand how manufacturing open-source designs is cloning anyone... isn't that the whole point unless you've chosen an explicit non-commercial-use license?
@@poofygoofOne would THINK so! 🙄
I have 3 Behringer products…a mixer, a multi-fx module (still unopened) and a headphone amp box (also unopened) that looks like an exact copy of another one. When I started hearing about them threatening to sue critics and the Oberheim thing, I was like, “What the heck is wrong with these people?” After that, I avoided considering any of their products.
I can see some electronic music albums having a “No Behringer Products Used” proud disclaimer. ;-)
Cheap self-aggrandizing bigotry. Trust me, they all have or have had used Behringer.
And probably some "Behringer only" productions comming up soon ;-) Just to embarrass the zealots.
@@pcbassy9404 I've never used any Behringer equipment and have 0 intention to do so. If I can't afford a vintage synth, I'm gonna buy a software that does this thing for even cheaper than Behringer clone. Hardware is a luxury, not a necessity.
So yeah, I'd rather be a 'cheap bigot' and a 'zealot'.
Very interesting and informative .. I used to sell Behringer 20 years ago when I had a music store .. Had no idea this was the kind of company they were (or were going to become) .. Thanks so much
So much respect for you making this video and telling it like it is - super glad I'm subbed to this channel.
PS: I'm really glad you made the point that just cos something is legal, doesn't mean it's ok and cool to do. Not enough people understand that point. It comes down to...what sort of a world, do you want to live in?
Gotta rewatch Everything Everywhere All at Once to find a wholesome Behringer in one of the parallel universes
I own a Behringer Pro One and I replaced my OG ailing Pro One with it, and I fucking love it. I wish I needed their RD-9 and 8, if I needed it, I'd buy it. They are amazing products. I would love to make music with them. The world is complicated and life is challenging enough to virtue signal with my gear. 20 years ago if you told me as a young techno producer that I could get a brand new 909 for $300 I'd be in nirvana. Now I can also have the opinions that some of their social media and marketing is not being practiced how I would approach it, its not the way I choose to interact. But that's not my problem nor do I care about the solution. The products are desirable to me and I'm very satisfied with their products I own. They sound amazing. Their public persona is entertaining to watch whether its good or bad, or I agree or not. It still get's my attention, whether its an article or a video. I want to make music, and I want the gear they make. Will I buy a Swing? no I don't agree with that product, I'll buy Keysteps, and I'll buy their Kobol and I'll buy new Elektrons and I'll kiss the ground that these products exist for me to create with.
19:12 is such a great point. Stellar video mate.
full support for what you said! Also very nuanced 🤩
Just today had a discussion with my brother about patents and legal arguments and that there's also a moral side to doing business, which is not covered by IP and which Behringer IMHO does not abide to (the moral part). Because of their way of doing business, I have decided to not buy anymore of their products, have sold one already (MS- 1 replaced with an Eowave Magma) and will also sell the last remaining one. (and I own shit tons of gear 😇)