Proverbs
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- This is my third video on the three major texts that the Jehovah Witness organization uses to attempt to disprove the deity of Jesus Christ. I'll demonstrate that their interpretation of Wisdom being "created" is nonsense. I'll be using their "bible" translation the New World Translation.
The two other video's on Jehovah Witness
Colossians 1:15 • Jesus the Firstborn of...
Revelation 3:14 • Jesus, the beginning o...
This is great brother! Praise God for you!
I was led to this possibility myself a few years ago by the Holy Ghost. Gen 4:1 is also the very first time 'qanah' is used btw, which is a weighty matter in setting the tone for the fundamental meaning throughout the Bible.
More importantly though, look at John 16:27-31 as well:
'For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?'
Consider their setting, consider their reaction. Consider His reaction. Consider He is 'the Word' of Adonai. Remember that is not a metaphorical statement. For 'the Word' became flesh. John 1 is not a metaphorical text. Check out what Matthew Henry says about John 1:1 as 'the Word'. It denotes both the 'thought begotten' and the 'thought spoken'. In such a way, to piggy back from you, He is Wisdom and He is Power, or as you so beautiful demonstrated, His eternal and divine Power.
Now consider John 1 ends with a testimony of our Lord '...Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.'
Well did the writer of Hebrews note 'God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets' for this is how God interacted with man, He spoke, to them. And in faith, they believed, and God's glory was manifest. His Word, His promise, His Name, He has always been the ladder between God and men. For 'no man cometh to the Father but through' Him. For God is in Him, for 'in Him dwells all the fullness of Deity bodily'.
There is so much to say. Once the link between Messiah as the Word of God manifest in the flesh is in place, the entire Old Testament exaltation of the Word of Adonai is overwhelming.
This exaltation was not missed by ancient Jews before and at Jesus' time who wrote of this and some even designated to 'the Word', status of second power in heaven.
Think about it even more, He is 'the bread of life', 'come down from heaven', and yet, 'man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live (Deu 8:4, Matt 4:4). And He is the bread we may eat thereof 'and never die'.
Look also, the bread he gives is his flesh. He prepares a table, and bids his guests. So too in Prov 9, wisdom says 'Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled'.
All of John 6 is about this. And look at how the Jews react to Him saying He is the 'living bread', 'come down from heaven' in John 6:41... it made them uncomfortable to be around someone talking that way!
His point of origin, isn't creation from nothing, He comes forth from the Father, like His breath when He speaks... As it is written, Yeshua is 'of the Holy Ghost'. And just look at John 6:46... Could that apply as well? I literally just noticed that...
Anyway, much blessing to you brother! I wanted to check this before I said any of it long ago, and so I looked way back into Athanasius, and these were his arguments so we are not alone and this is sound! He goes further though...
They say 'he is Son of God' but they don't mean it. They don't mean True Son, they don't believe he is 'THE Son', 'the one and only', they believe he is an adopted son like us and the angels.
You see, they say they believe he is the Son of God, and that he is the Word of God, but when pressed, the latter is a metaphor (because if not the implications are too weighty), and the former they are not prepared for for sons have the name (Prov 30:4) and the nature (John 1:1) of their father. Athanasius takes it in this approach. What does the the Holy Spirit mean when He records Jesus saying 'I am the Truth, and the Life'. Is the 'Truth' a created thing? Or is God Truth.. Etc..
One last one I heard I liked for John 1:1.
Consider Gen 2, and 5:1-2.
One could summarize them and say 'In the garden was the woman, and the woman was with (the) man, and the woman was man'
But you would not be able to say 'in the garden was the woman, and the woman was with (the) man, and the woman was (a) man' nor could you say 'and the woman was (the) man'.
It only works the one way. As woman is 'taken out of' man, is of man and is man, and yet is subordinate to man, though equal to man, so too, the Word of God, comes forth from God, is of God and is God, and yet is subordinate to God, though equal to God.
Be blessed my brother
I read your comment in one of the videos and was wondering whether you have obtained the Full Revelation of Jesus Christ as I believe I have found mercy and grace to. It is the Father's precious will that we know Him in the Person of His Son Jesus Christ and see His glory in the Face of Jesus Christ. You seem to be approaching it as I can see, just keep on believing every Word of God and you will obtain the Gospel Truth of the knowledge of God and His Son. If you are on the path of believing every Word of God and rightly dividing and placing them correctly in applying them into it right place in doctrine then you are pressing toward possessing the greatest treasure of knowledge and wisdom (Col 2:3). Only pray for two things "Humility and Truthfulness" in handling the Word of eternal life and hating every false way (Ps 119) but don't accuse any man because it is only by special grace.
This precious brother has done a very wonderful job here, he might only need to balance so other parts of the Scriptures to understand how God Brought forth AND Made another Person of Himself (the Son). The Son is the Revelation of the Father's Person. How the Son is Another Person of God the Father, God now revealing Himself and condescending towards creation just to create. Great indeed is the mystery of godliness... He is indeed Wonderful.
Wait... So the JW's teach that the power of God is the holy Spirit... But 1st Corinthians says that Jesus is the power of God.... These guys make it up as they go along
Is Proverbs 8:22-31 talking about Wisdom personified instead of Jesus? Why is Wisdom referred to in the feminine gender?
When examining Proverbs 8:22-31, some have argued that this passage isn't talking about Jesus but rather Wisdom itself personified. They further may point out that Wisdom may previously have been referred to in the feminine gender.
However, in Prov. Chap.8, Wisdom is manifest only by being expressed in some way. God's own wisdom was expressed in creation (Prov. 3:19, 20) but through his Son. But as for Prov. 8:22-31, many professed Christian writers of the early centuries of the Common Era understood this section to refer symbolically to God's Son in his pre-human state.
It is true that in Hebrew, which assigns gender to its nouns (as do many other languages), the word for "wisdom" is always in the feminine gender. This would continue to be the case even though wisdom is personified and so would not rule out wisdom's being used figuratively to represent God's firstborn Son. For instance, the Greek word for "love" in the expression "God is love" (1 John 4:8) is also in the feminine gender but that does not make God feminine.
Also, Jehovah God is the Creator of all things. He is uncreated, without beginning (Rev. 4:11). Job 36:26 says, "In number his years are beyond searching." It is impossible to place an age upon him, for there is no starting point from which to measure. Because He is ageless, He is properly called "the Ancient of Days" since His existence stretches endlessly into the past. (Dan. 7:9, 13) And so, since Jehovah God has existed forever, therefore wisdom had to have always existed within Jehovah forever. (Ps. 90:2)
So we could ask those using these trinitarian arguments: If Prov. 8:22-31 is really talking about literal wisdom itself, than how could wisdom even have been "begotten"? How could it have even been "produced", "set up", "created", or "made"? If this was talking about literal wisdom itself, then how could wisdom be "beside" God or "before" Him? How could wisdom be "the one He was specially fond of"?
So instead of literal Wisdom itself (of which God had to already have in order to "beget", "produce", "set up", "create", or "make" anything),when Prov. 8:22 also says that the subject is, "the earliest of his achievements of long ago", this corresponds more to the description of Jesus in Col. 1:15 where it says that he is "the first-born of all creation". Or when Prov.8:23 says, "From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth", this corresponds more to the description of Jesus in Micah 5:2 where it says that his "origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite". Or when Prov. 8:22 says, "Jehovah God himself produced me as the beginning of his way," this corresponds more to the description of Jesus in Rev. 3:14 where it says that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation by God".
And as for the Hebrew word 'qanah', it can mean either to "produce, aquire, create" or "possess". Context is key in finding out which one it means. Bibles which are biased toward the Trinity do not want to render it as "Produce" or something similar because that would mean that Jesus has a beginning, and that would contradict the Trinity doctrine.
Yet, because the context of Prov. 8:22-31 so overwhelmingly supports the translation of the word 'qanah' as "create", even scores of trinitarian bibles have decided to render it as such:
(1) "[Jehovah] created me at the beginning of his work" -RSV;
(2) "[Jehovah] created me" - NRSV;
(3) "[Jehovah] made me" - MLB;
(4) "Yahweh created me" - JB; "Yahweh created me" - NJB;
(5) "[Jehovah] created me" - NEB;
(6) "[Jehovah] created me" - REB;
(7) "I was the first thing made" - ETRV;
(8) "[Jehovah] created me as the first of his creations" - Lamsa;
(9) "[Jehovah] created me first of all" - GNB;
(10) "[Jehovah] formed me as the first of his works" - AT;
(11) "[Jehovah] formed me first of his creation" - Mo;
(12) "Jehovah framed me first" - Byington;
(13) "[Jehovah] created me" - The Reader's Digest Bible;
(14) "[Jehovah] brought me forth as the first of his works" - The NIV Study Bible. It also explains in a footnote for Prov. 8:22: "brought...forth. The Hebrew for this verb is also used in Ge 4:1; 14:19, 22 (`creator')." - Zondervan, 1985;
(15) "[Jehovah] made me the beginning of his ways for his works" - The Apostles Bible;
(16) "[Jehovah] made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past. - BBE;
(17) "Yahweh created me first, at the beginning of his works" - Christian Community Bible;
(18) "[Jehovah] made me as the beginning of his way, the first of his ancient works" - The Complete Jewish Bible;
(19) "[Jehovah] made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago" -The Holman Christian Standard Bible;
(20) "[Jehovah] created me as the first of his creations, before all of his works. - Peshitta - Lamsa Translation;
(21) "[Jehovah] sovereignly made me-the first, the basic- before he did anything else." -The Message;
(22) "[Jehovah] created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago." -NET;
(23) "I, wisdom, was with [Jehovah] when he began his work, long before he made anything else. 23 I wascreated in the very beginning, even before the world began." - New Century Version;
(24) "[Jehovah] created me as the first of his works, before his acts of long ago." - New International Reader's Version;
(25) "[Jehovah] made me at the beginning of His work, before His first works long ago." -New Life Bible;
(26) "[Jehovah] formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. - New Living Translation;
(27) "Jehovah created me in the beginning of his way, before his works of antiquity." - New Simplified Bible;
(28) "[Jehovah] created me as the head of His ways, to perform all of His works" - 2001 Translation.
If Jesus is God, wouldn't that mean that Jesus was never really dead in the first place and therefore his sacrificial death never really happened? Even if it did, would God's death really be "a corresponding ransom"?
"Are you not from of old, O Lord my God, my Holy One? You shall not die." (Hab. 1:12) NRSV (If Jesus really were God, and God is immortal, Jesus could not have died.)
The argument that only the human part of Jesus died is a denial that God died for us. So the doctrine of the double nature of Christ not only conflicts with Scripture, it conflicts with other trinitarian dogma:
A comparable difficulty faces Trinitarians when they assert that only the human part of Jesus died. If Jesus were God, and God is immortal, Jesus could not have died. If Jesus is the whole person and Jesus died, he cannot be immortal Deity. It appears that Trinitarians argue that only Deity is sufficient to provide the necessary atonement. But if the divine nature did not die, how on the Trinitarian theory is the atonement secured?
God's Law to ancient Israel required "soul for soul [or, life for life]." (Exodus 21:23) So the death covering mankind's transgressions would have to equal what Adam had lost. Only the death of another perfect man could pay the wages of sin. 1 Timothy 2:6 & Romans 5:16, 17 outline that Jesus was such a man. Jesus was "a corresponding ransom" for the saving of all redeemable mankind descended from Adam.
Jesus, no more and no less than a perfect human, became a ransom that compensated exactly for what Adam lost-the right to perfect human life on earth. So Jesus could rightly be called “the last Adam” by the apostle Paul, who said in the same context: “Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45) The perfect human life of Jesus was the “corresponding ransom” required by divine justice-no more, no less. A basic principle even of human justice is that the price paid should fit the wrong committed.
If Jesus, however, were part of a Godhead, the ransom price would have been infinitely higher than what God’s own Law required. (Exodus 21:23-25; Leviticus 24:19-21) It was only a perfect human, Adam, who sinned in Eden, not God. So the ransom, to be truly in line with God’s justice, had to be strictly an equivalent-a perfect human, “the last Adam.” Therefore, when God sent Jesus to earth as the ransom, he made Jesus to be what would satisfy justice, not an incarnation, not a god-man, but a perfect man, “lower than angels.” (Hebrews 2:9; compare Psalm 8:5, 6.) How could any part of an almighty Godhead-Father, Son, or holy spirit-ever be lower than angels?
If Jesus were a man who could not have failed in his mission, there would be no way for us to relate to him. His life would become devoid of meaning because we relate to others based on our experience. Our experience tells us we can fail. If Jesus were God he could not have failed, and therefore could not be somebody with whom we can relate. The doctrine of the double nature of Christ strips us of a true appreciation of the challenges he faced and the manner in which he handled them.
Consider the account of Satan's attempt at tempting Jesus in the wilderness. (Mt. 4:1-11)
If Jesus really were God...
1.) Satan would not have even bothered tempting the One who could not have failed.
2.) Jesus would not have constantly been referring to God as a separate person and how Jesus should not put Him to the test.
3.) It would have been pointless for Satan to offer "all the kingdoms of the world" to Jesus since it is only by God's allowance that Satan has control over them.
4.) Satan's request for Jesus to worship him would have been absurd to both of them.
5.) Jesus would never have said, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord (Jehovah) your God and him only shall you serve.'" (Mt. 4:8-10) RSV. Jesus said that his worship belongs to God, not Satan. If Jesus was God, this statement would make absolutely no sense at all.
Jesus always spoken of as a single being
We find no passage in the Bible in which it is taught that Jesus had two natures, one human and one divine...but he is always spoken of as a single being, "the Christ the Son of the Living God." Jesus constantly spoke of himself using the personal pronouns, "I", "myself", and "me". His Father (the One Jesus described as "the only true God"; John 17:1-3) is also overwhelming identified in the Bible by the singular person pronouns "I," and "Me," and "He," and "Him". That is because God and His son Jesus do not have dual or tri-natures. Jesus, being in God's image (2 Cor. 4:4) was only one...just as God is only one. (Deut. 6:4; 1 Tim. 2:5)
The Bible says that Christ AND Man (Col. 1:15; 2 Cor. 4:4) are in God's image. If it is true that God possesses a tri-nature, then why does Man (who was created in God's image) not display any kind of a multi-nature about him whatsoever? Certainly if God and Christ possessed such dual or tri-natures, and such a fundamental multi-nature aspect is conspicuously absent in Man, how then could it be said that Man was made in God's image?
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5) (God Himself has no tri-nature and there was no dual nature for Jesus.)
@@moemorales4317 , Yeshua died in the flesh, but He lived in the Spirit. Why did Jesus have to die on the cross? Because he is the Lord of the living and the dead. When Jesus died He went to hell to retrieve the keys of death and hell from Satan as well preach to those that died before knowing his Name. Jesus is the Lord of the living and the dead. The end of the law for righteous is "faith in the Name of Jesus Christ." How could they know his Name, if they died before knowing him? He died on the cross to preach to those that were dead in sin before He was manifested in the flesh. Satan had the keys to death and hell, and Jesus went to hell to retrieve them from him. Now, He has the victory over Satan, because Satan no longer has the power of death.
@@moemorales4317 Wisdom is a she, not it.
You said the word qanah can mean create . But then you change it to created . John 1:3 All things were made by Him and without Him nothing was made that was made .
Of the things that were created not one thing was created without Him.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers all things were created through Him and for Him.
Note it does not say Jehovah created all things .
Hey man! Loved your video, but had a few questions. You said that Jesus, as the power of God, was "eternal" based on Rom 1:20, and "divine" based on 2 Peter 1:3. However, couldn't a JW respond that although Jesus is eternal, that does not mean he never had a beginning- only that he will never have an end? Sort of like our "eternal" life. We haven't always had eternal life; it had a beginning, but it will never have an end. So maybe they could still say Jesus was created. Secondly, couldn't a JW respond by saying that Jesus was "divine," as in, being from God or related to God, but not necessarily implying that he is fully God in the Trinitarian sense? Blessings!
Ravi Keller read Genesis 1:1 and john1:1, 3. Just a couple of references as to who Jesus is.
If you don't have a relationship with Jesus, then all you have is religion and after you run your race He is going to say, I never knew you.
So how could Jesus say he is Α and Ω? How could he say he is the beginning and the end?
@@gustavmahler1466 Yes, Jesus calls Himself "First and the Last" later in Revelation 1, and "Alpha and the Omega" in Revelation 22
@@dissyl6029 Father's words out of Jesus mouth Deuteronomy 18:18 ''will put my words in his mouth''
@@gustavmahler1466 Lol
I've heard Arius of Alexandria used Prov 8:22 in the LXX to "prove" Christ was the first created being. The UBS text thinks Rev 3:14 is a reference to Prove 8:22 but this is subjective. Too bad the NT writers didn't Quote from Prov chap 8 as a Messianic text.
Yo! 2Cor10:5! I was anticipating with eagerness for you to read a little further through chapter 8, especially verses 30-36. My heart LEAPED within my chest when I first read those
and leaps again today, as I recognize the Master King Yehoshua! Read on into chapter 9. What are the seven pillars? Eat my bread and drink my wine! (verse 5) It is obvious for those
who approach with open eyes, open (new) heart, and prayerful consideration. The secret deep things of The Almighty Father Originator and The Chosen One King Yeshua are truly pearls of
GREAT PRICE indeed! amen He is preparing the banquet for the bride, amen (may your search be fruitful)
“Something similar is also read in Proverbs, of the personification of the Wisdom, who is the Christ: »The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways for his works. He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth: even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: before the mountains were settled and before all hills, he begets me.« Here, the word »created« should not confuse us, since in the Hebrew text, there is no »created«, which is expressed with BARA, but »possessed«. For it is written: »ADONAI CANANI BRESITH DERCHO«, which in our language means: »The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his ways«. However, there is a great difference between »possession« and »creation«. Possession signifies that the Son has always been in the Father, and the Father in the Son. But creation is the beginning of a new state of that, which did not exist before.”
(Jerome - Letter 140)
From everlasting Proverbs 8:23 KJV
@@Scott48-w9i In this letter, Jerome argues that the correct translation of "קנני" (Qanani) in Proverbs 8:22 is "possessed" rather than "created." He bases his argument on the distinction between the Hebrew words for "create" (ברא, bara) and "possess" (קנה, qanah). He sees the use of "possess" as signifying the eternal existence of the Son in the Father, while "create" would suggest that the Son had a beginning, a concept he rejects as a Christian theologian.
The verb 'bara' (בָּרָא), which means 'create' in Hebrew, is indeed used throughout the Bible to denote the divine act of creating. This verb is exclusively used for divine creation in the Hebrew Bible. It conveys a sense of the initiation of something new, bringing something into existence that was not there before.
If Proverbs 8:22 was intended to communicate that Wisdom (or the Word/Logos, in Christian interpretation) was "created" as a new entity, the text would have used the verb 'bara' rather than 'qanah'. Instead, 'qanah' is used, which could be interpreted to mean that Wisdom was not created as a new entity but was rather "possessed" or "acquired" as something that already existed.
@@XyzWse001 I trust the KJV Bible
Context, context, context. Trying to use Prov. 8 to disprove the deity of Christ shows their ignorance of the Bible.
Guardian Fury I'm ignorant?
2Cor10:5 lol, no, the JW theology is ignorant.
@@guardianfury2436 It proves Christ preexisted
not just 1 Corinthians 1:24 also ( 1 Corinthians 1:30 ) King James Version "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption
Early christian writers(Patristics) identified Prov chap 8 with the preexistent Christ. This formed the basis for their "eternal-generation" doctrine. As ancient Creed's read, Jesus "was begotten not made". But modern biblical commentaries, particularly Judaistic ones DO NOT SEE JESUS in Prov chap 8 for OBVIOUS Reasons! Prov chap 8 could just be POETIC language like 1 Cor 13 PERSONIFIES "Love" as,
"patient,kind,does not envy,get puffed up,is not rude,not selfish,not provoked,thinks no evil,rejoices in truth" etc.
Begotten not made is a contradiction
The word in Hebrew for possessed is also accurately translated as “produced” and as “ brought forth “ and as” birthed “.
As you have acknowledged, it was the first century fathers who knew Jesus who made this claim. You are arguing against the Apostles.
so it support the oneness or one God means Jesus was the creator Jehovah? can you explain about Mark 14:62 (NIV)
“And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One? i think it support the trinity?
God anointed another God Hebrews 1:8,9
Proverbs 8 is talking about wisdom not the power of God . That’s why 1 Corinthians 1:24 is used to illustrate that wisdom is Christ.
I don’t believe Christ was created but was brought forth from God….John 16:28, He had a beginning which means was not eternal.
"I don’t believe Christ was created but was brought forth from God" what does that mean?
Your video really helped me understand this chapter . How you mention wisdom is eternal as God is eternal is true. Wisdom is speaking from verse 1 to 21. Then it ends there . From verse 22 to the end is Christ speaking. It cannot be wisdom because wisdom doesn’t have beginning. She is an attribute of God so she is eternal.
From v 22 , using kjv, Christ tells us how Jehovah possessed him before his works of old. He was setup ( to be the plan of salvation) from the beginning. Before anything was formed Christ was brought forth.
Creation of Adam was from external substance same as the Angels(rev 22:9). Christ was brought forth from divine nature of God . That’s why the name of God was in him (exo 23:21). He has the nature of God but in personality he is the Son of God.
@@Exactamundo lol you're adding all this meaning to the text. You also need to watch the video again. My argument is that proverbs 8:22 has nothing to do with Jesus.
@@2Cor10five yes I know by you arguing it has nothing to do with Christ , I seen it has more to with Christ but only from v22 onwards. Look at v35.
Proverbs 8 does not try to disprove the deity of Christ, It actually proves it.
Jesus was Gods wisdom Personified. He was Solomon wisdom but with The Spirit of God..
Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the divinity of Jesus
If the wisdom in proverb chapter 8 is not Jesus who is proverb talk about?
God's attribute.
It is talking about The Logos, The Christ, Jesus and Christ Were not the Same, Jesus was Made the Christ According to Acts 2.
@@terrellrogers1052 That is absolutely false. 😂
and clothe yourselves with the new personality ( Colossians 3:10) so also you ca put on clothes that are personalities , this is also in harmony with Proverbs 8:12.........
''prudence'' is the Lord Read the context
sorry im late yet these are very easy to answer
You my only friend make the connection first between:
Only begotten of the Father Almighty; now explain as you explain the the frk’n failures of the JW’s.
Tila is that you?
This is hysterical. This guy is forced to admit from the outset that the early Church fathers were using the same argument to show rthe pre-existence of Jesus. But he wants to ignore this and dismiises them by saying they were not inspired. Duh ! It seems to me that this is not a JW problem but a problem for those who acceopt a post -Apostolic view of God as triune.
You forgot to mention that I show in the video that Wisdom was not created in that context. Even if it is about Jesus, it shows he was not created. I show it from their bible and not any church father.
@@2Cor10five : I think you miss the point, or are trying to ignore the obvious. You even admitted that some early Church Fathers also believed that the wisdom in Proverbs 8 was a prophetc reference to Jesus. This shows that the idea is not 'new; or simply made up the Jehovah's Witnesses, it shows that the idea and argument has been around from the earliest times.
You showed that the Hebrews use 'personification; and that the verse suggests 'birth language.' Correct. But again, anything that is given birth to has not always existed. The fact that God created, gave birth to/ produced his onl;y begotten Son who acted as the agent of creation is well attested to elsewhere in scripture.
One wonders why you are so reluctant to accept the view of the Church fathers on this? Is it because you are unitarian and so do not believe that the Son of God pre-existed? Or is it because as a trinitarian you understand that a created Son of God kills the trinity stone dead.? If either is true, you have no option but to explain this away.
@@Scott48-m7e : So here are a few others :
"created " Berean Standard Bible
"created " New American Standard Bible
"made me" Holman Christian Standard Bible
"created me" Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"Created" Good News Translation
"created " NRSV
"created " Majority Standard Bible
"created " New Heart English Bible
"made me" Tanakh 1917
"made me" ISV
"formed me " NLT
"brought me forth " NIV
@@gerryquinn5578 everlasting means had a beginning but has no end
@@Scott48-m7e : And this is with reference to what ?
Jesus is Lady Wisdom Luke 7:35 KJV
I like your videos as it already comes close to revealing who is the Wisdom created in Proverbs8:22.
1Cor1:14 said that Jesus is the Wisdom of God and Proverbs8:22-24 as you decipher is birthed before the foundation of the World.
You can relate this two important passages to Genesis1:1 and Genesis1:2.
Genesis1:1 is the "Wisdom of God" that is birthed by God in eternity when the Almighty God desire to share His Infinite Glory to a created being.
In the stillness when God desire to share His Glory, He needed to birth/produce what kind of "Wisdom" would it need for a creature to enter into His Infinite Glory since "nothing defiled shall enter into His Glory".
This is where the Mystery begins, The Almighty God revealed a Trinitarian Face to accomplished His desire of sharing His infinite Glory. Church Father called this the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit started to commune with each other how to accomplish that desire.(This is not Divine Council in the presence of angels, this is only the Holy Trinity)
Since "nothing defiled shall enter in their presence" this desire is "IMPOSSIBLE". But God the Son said "NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE" I will lay down my Life for all the created soul to be worthy of entering our presence if they believe and follow me.
So, God the Son mission was to be Incarnated to show us the WAY to enter in God's Glorious Presence.
But, God the Son cannot do it alone without God the Holy Spirit to SANCTIFYING His Mission, so the Holy Spirit presence is needed too.
I like to share my personal phrase in meditating this mystery " The WILL/Desire of God the Father is communicated by the WORD/Logos and understand by the WISDOM of the Holy Spirit."(JRicafort)
To relate this short reflection on the video topic on hand St.Montfort book "Love of Eternal Wisdom" will help us determine correctly the Wisdom in Proverbs8:22 and connect it more truthfully to 1Cor1:14 and the word "produced/birthed" will perfectly reveals the BLUEPRINT/WISDOM of God how to accomplished His DESIRE in sharing His Infinite Glory to created mankind.
Genesis1:1 in Hebrew word "BERESHIT" reveals in tetagrammaton this hidden meaning "The Son of the Almighty God offered His Life on the Cross"..but if you compete the reflections on Genesis1:1 it would continue as "and the GRACES flowed thru the SEA".
This means that God the Son in order to fulfill the desire of the Father had to suffer "The Way of the Cross" as the Key to enter in God's Presence and the Logos will be Incarnated to show mankind that this is the WAY to enter God's Kingdom..
But, we have to connect the missing part "the GRACES won on the CROSS flowed thru the SEA".
The SEA is Miryam in Hebrew word, meaning the GRACES won by Jesus Christ will be deposited to the SEA/Miryam.
Genesis1:2 reveals the WOMAN, as Genesis1:1 is only a Blueprint, the Logos needs to be "BIRTHED/CREATED/PRODUCED" before the foundation of the world and will also reveals the Holy Spirit role in the Salvation of Mankind.
Genesis1:2 said the earth was void and had no form, meaning there was no creation yet in TIME..TIME had not yet existed, why?
The Holy Spirit needs to hover first in the waters, the waters of the PURE WOMB of the Woman to form the Logos in eternity.
Only when Genesis1:1(Way of the Cross) and Genesis1:2(Mystery of the Annunciation/Incarnation) was revealed the CREATION TIME BEGINS"...As now God "birthed His Created Wisdom in the Salvation of Man"...God the Creator now uttered the FISRT WORD to create the actual Heaven & Earth by saying "LET THERE BE LIGHT".
Jesus was the LIGHT and the waters in the Pure Womb which the Holy Spirit hovers is the chosen Woman named Mary the priveleged soul to become the Theotokos, both Jesus and Mary existed before the creation time begins as the Wisdom of God, Jesus existed in the Bosom of the Father while the Woman/Theotokos existed in the Heart of God.
This is "MEAT" brother and can only be digest by a mature Christian. S&IHMMP4us.My Jesus mercy.Amen.
@@uniqoEnEsp Christ is the wisdom of God 1 Cor 1:24 ''wisdom'' is feminine in Greek
@@uniqoEnEsp Corinthians is in the New Testament ''wisdom'' is feminine Sophia
Halleluja
This is too easy to answer. So for Proverbs 8:12 look at one chapter before (Proverbs 7:4)"Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,”
And call understanding “my relative,”.
Prudence is the Lord with Wisdom she is literally a female spirit
It does say ''created'' in Proverbs 8:22 in many translations
Jerome argues that the correct translation of "קנני" (Qanani) in Proverbs 8:22 is "possessed" rather than "created." He bases his argument on the distinction between the Hebrew words for "create" (ברא, bara) and "possess" (קנה, qanah). He sees the use of "possess" as signifying the eternal existence of the Son in the Father, while "create" would suggest that the Son had a beginning, a concept he rejects as a Christian theologian.
The verb 'bara' (בָּרָא), which means 'create' in Hebrew, is indeed used throughout the Bible to denote the divine act of creating. This verb is exclusively used for divine creation in the Hebrew Bible. It conveys a sense of the initiation of something new, bringing something into existence that was not there before.
If Proverbs 8:22 was intended to communicate that Wisdom (or the Word/Logos, in Christian interpretation) was "created" as a new entity, the text would have used the verb 'bara' rather than 'qanah'. Instead, 'qanah' is used, which could be interpreted to mean that Wisdom was not created as a new entity but was rather "possessed" or "acquired" as something that already existed.
Dionysius of Rome argues that ἔκτισέ in the context of Proverbs 8:22 doesn't mean that Wisdom (interpreted as the Son or Christ) was created, in the sense of being brought into existence, but rather that the Son was appointed or established as the beginning of God's ways. His letter highlights the complexity of Greek and Hebrew words that are often translated into English as "created." In the original languages of the Bible, these words often carried a range of meanings, and their interpretation can greatly influence one's understanding of the nature of Jesus. For instance, the Greek word ἔκτισέ (ektise) does indeed have nuances. While it often means "created," it can also be understood in the sense of "established" or "ordained." He discusses the nature of biblical language, especially focusing on the meaning of the term ἔκτισέ (ektise) which is often translated as 'created'. He argues that in the context of passages such as Proverbs 8:22, this term does not denote creation out of nothing, but rather a form of making or establishing. Thus, the Son is not a created being, but rather eternally begotten, sharing the same divine essence with the Father.
"ἔκτισέ" in the context of Proverbs 8:22 doesn't mean that Wisdom (interpreted as the Son or Christ) was created, in the sense of being brought into existence, but rather that the Son was appointed or established as the beginning of God's ways.
This is further supported by differentiating between the concepts of "made" and "begotten." In traditional Christian belief, "made" implies creation from nothing or from pre-existing materials, while "begotten" suggests an eternal relationship, with no beginning, between the Father and the Son. So, Christ is considered "begotten, not made," which means he shares the same divine nature with the Father and wasn't created at a certain point in time.
Athanasius presented an argument against those who hold that the Son of God was a created being. His main argument is centered on the notion of God's timelessness. If the Son was created, there must have been a time when the Son did not exist. But if the Son, who is the Word (Logos), Wisdom, and Power of God, did not exist, that means there was a time when God was without these qualities, which Athanasius deems absurd.
New Living Translation
“The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. (Proverbs 8:22)
Did you know that JESUS IS AN ANGEL ?
CovidImages need to be invested more than half19
Lol!! Youre like twisting those scriptures all up. Please stop if you dont understand what youre reading,the only thing youve shown is complete ignorance of these matters😂😂😂
Refute the video.
Refute the video?? Okay. I can tell you exactly when The word of the Lord (Jesus) was brought forth. All this time you have been rambling endlessly on refuting the jw. And dont understand how ignorant your arguement is.😂😂...Jesus(The Word of the Lord) is a created being. He knows it very well and also proclaims that he was the beginning of Gods creation and he is the end. What does it mean when he says he is the first and the last? It means he was the first created and that he is the last like himself. When God made him he broke the mold. He isnt God but he isnt an angel. He is something very unique. Not only can i tell you he is created, i can tell you what he was made of and when he was created. Refuting trinity doctrines is really easy because i know where they come from and who uses them in their religions. Go tell your dog your stories. They will probably just wag their tails and look at you to shut you up😂😂🐕🖐💥
@@killforce787878 "What does it mean when he says he is the first and the last? It means he was the first created and that he is the last like himself."
According to you the Father is created
Isaiah 44:6 This is what the Lord says Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 48:12 Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
Unless you want to tell me that is Jesus speaking to Isaiah? Now show me where in the bible does it say the first and last means "he was the first created and that he is the last like himself"
" I can tell you exactly when The word of the Lord (Jesus) was brought forth."
"Not only can i tell you he is created, i can tell you what he was made of and when he was created."
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Let's see what the Word of the Lord said to Abram
Genesis 15:1 After this, the WORD OF THE LORD came to Abram in a vision:
“Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,
your very great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “SOVEREIGN LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”
4 Then the WORD OF THE LORD came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars-if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
7 He also said to him, “I AM THE LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”
Notice the WORD OF THE LORD took Abram outside in verse 5. Since you admitted the word of the Lord is Jesus, which you'll get no argument from me, notice what Jesus said to Abram in verse 7 "I AM THE LORD". If you know anything about the old testament(which I'm sure you don't) the word LORD their is in all capitol letters which means the writer is telling you that is where Gods name(the tetragrammaton) appears in the Hebrew text. Yahweh. Jesus just said he is Yahew even though us trinitarians don't believe he is the Father.
2Cor10:5
This dominion tv character accused you of not knowing what your talking about. Then he went on to quote the worst proof text I’ve ever seen someone try to use to prove that Jesus was created. Glad that you refuted his horrible argument out in the open for everyone to see!
@@bryansphere6359 refute what i said boy. You guys are ignorant and you clearly dont know scripture. You just regurgitate what you have seen on tbn😂😂
It's NOT a JW's Problem, IT IS YOUR PROBLEM ...
Jesus was a created being... by saying Jesus was the wisdom of God it means by God's wisdom He created Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Proverbs 8:22-25 "The LORD CREATED ME first of all, the first of his works, long ago. (23) I was made in the very beginning, at the first, before the world began. (24) I was born before the oceans, when there were no springs of water. (25) I was born before the mountains, before the hills were set in place...GNB
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "This is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the origin of all that God has created. GNB
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; KJV
JESUS WAS A CREATED BEING BY THE WISDOM OF GOD !
"In the beginning was the word" simply means Jesus had a beginning, the beginning of the creation by God... John 1:1; Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE:
Here's my rebuttal to Rev 3:14. ua-cam.com/video/DC4DcThtlSg/v-deo.html&ab_channel=2Cor10%3A5 Revelation is the wrong book to quote if you want to attempt to prove that Jesus is created. All of creation is literally worshiping the Father and Son at the end of chapter 5.
You have a problem also, you quote 1 Cor 1:24. It also says Jesus is the "POWER" of God. The same Paul that wrote Corinthians also wrote Romans 1:20 that says God's power is eternal. "For his invisible attributes, namely, his ETERNAL POWER and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." You just cause a contradiction in the bible.
Here is my rebuttal to Col 1:15, that's the easiest one to respond to. Me and you don't determine what "firstborn" means. The bible determines what that word means.
ua-cam.com/video/k2Ska_Lc_mU/v-deo.html&ab_channel=2Cor10%3A5
@@2Cor10five What authority do you have to say Revelation is a wrong book ?
Can you prove Revelation a wrong book ?
Or you are the one ' Wrong'...
@@ramilsarmiento5534 firstborn highest rank not first created
Dionysius of Rome argues that ἔκτισέ in the context of Proverbs 8:22 doesn't mean that Wisdom (interpreted as the Son or Christ) was created, in the sense of being brought into existence, but rather that the Son was appointed or established as the beginning of God's ways. His letter highlights the complexity of Greek and Hebrew words that are often translated into English as "created." In the original languages of the Bible, these words often carried a range of meanings, and their interpretation can greatly influence one's understanding of the nature of Jesus. For instance, the Greek word ἔκτισέ (ektise) does indeed have nuances. While it often means "created," it can also be understood in the sense of "established" or "ordained." He discusses the nature of biblical language, especially focusing on the meaning of the term ἔκτισέ (ektise) which is often translated as 'created'. He argues that in the context of passages such as Proverbs 8:22, this term does not denote creation out of nothing, but rather a form of making or establishing. Thus, the Son is not a created being, but rather eternally begotten, sharing the same divine essence with the Father.
"ἔκτισέ" in the context of Proverbs 8:22 doesn't mean that Wisdom (interpreted as the Son or Christ) was created, in the sense of being brought into existence, but rather that the Son was appointed or established as the beginning of God's ways.
This is further supported by differentiating between the concepts of "made" and "begotten." In traditional Christian belief, "made" implies creation from nothing or from pre-existing materials, while "begotten" suggests an eternal relationship, with no beginning, between the Father and the Son. So, Christ is considered "begotten, not made," which means he shares the same divine nature with the Father and wasn't created at a certain point in time.
Athanasius presented an argument against those who hold that the Son of God was a created being. His main argument is centered on the notion of God's timelessness. If the Son was created, there must have been a time when the Son did not exist. But if the Son, who is the Word (Logos), Wisdom, and Power of God, did not exist, that means there was a time when God was without these qualities, which Athanasius deems absurd.
@@XyzWse001 Firstborn highest rank not first created