Here's my unflattering theory: I think the further along a series you go, the more you care about the details you never cared about before, because your perception of the series becomes more and more solidified over time. I have yet to hear a valid example of something legitimately WRONG with the writing in Wind and Truth that wasn't counterable with either "that was a nitpick about 1 out of 150 chapters" or "that existed just as much in the other books and you just forgot." I'm not saying its an invalid opinion to not LOVE his writing, because he clearly is going for a book with wide appeal, and that isn't going to land for everyone, but to say he's somehow taken a nosedive is ludicrous. I've seen people on youtube with large platforms rate this book 6 or 7 out of 10 while claiming to be massive Cosmere fans. If you pull 10 random books off of the shelf at Barnes and Noble you aren't getting 3-4 books at least as good as this. That's actually ridiculous. I actually cannot understand where people are coming from with some of these complaints. The humor not landing is one thing, but to say the humor is significantly WORSE than his other books, or that it isn't even comparable to other, similar fantasy books is insanity.
Basically you're right. For me Stormlight arc 1 is a solid 10/10. You can count epic fantasy sagas with more than 3 volumes and that they remain stable. One of the people in the video says "oh I came from The Dandelion Dynasty, which is majestically written, and now I'm reading Wind and Truth, oh my god I don't like it, I'm changing as a reader." She doesn't mention Robin Hoob, Ursula le Guin, Rothfuss, G.R.R Martin, but an author who does speculative fiction, and according to user reviews only the first volume is good, and the others not so much. Then I read further down someone saying "after reading Malazan and the first law, it seems that Sanderson is very meh." I read the first law. I was able to finish it because I really liked a character, but I had a hard time continuing because his world was so boring. Abercrombie's grimdark is not my thing. As for Malazan, I really liked this one. It's a bit chaotic because of the number of characters, and between volumes you end up forgetting what they did in the previous ones. I don't know if I'll ever get around to rereading it, just remembering Karsa Orlong discourages me.
I genuinely don't understand all the criticism of this book. I finished it last night, and I'm still reeling. I loved it, and my Cosmere buddy did as well. No art made by someone else is ever going to be exactly what you want it to be. If you want something you deem "perfect," go write it yourself. I think many people forget that they are consumers of another human's art, and if that human is happy with it, that is what matters. I don't want Brandon to write for me. I want Brandon to write for Brandon because that is what I've enjoyed all these years and continue to enjoy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some of the takes I have been seeing are just plain bad from my POV.
@@allisterhasADHD Mostly because of his popularity. I can't take seriously people who say that The Rhythm of War, Yumi, Tress or Wind and Truth are worse written than Sanderson's 2008-2013 work. I want to give an example of an artist/author from another medium. Christopher Nolan. He became known for Memento, but it was the TDK trilogy that shot his fame up. He continued making good films like The Prestige, Interstellar or Inception. But as his fame rose, so did the number of detractors. Many said he was an overrated, pretentious director, who wasn't in the big leagues of directors. Finally he won an Oscar, so he received the recognition he deserves. Returning to Sanderson, unfortunately he won't win a Nebula or Hugo (because of how these awards are), but neither did Rothfuss, Martin, Abercrombie or Erikson.
@@lacramaldita2230 completely agree with you (also loving the comparison because inception is one of my favorite movies lol). I think people just need to generally chill out. Style evolves, and that isn't a bad thing! I don't want to read the same book for 30 years. Lol.
There was, and some dialogue scene from WoR is mentioned here as a good example of potty humor, because it's less about humor in itself, it's more about context (Although the humor can still be jarring. To keep it non-spoilery, I'm only gonna say "chull")
When Syl called Kaladin “racist” for a punchline, my eyes practically rolled out of my skull. That’s an explicitly modern term that didn’t exist until the 20th Century, there’s no reason any of these characters should know what it means. There’s no reason she couldn’t have just called him “reductive” or “ignorant” for the same joke without shattering immersion. It goes the same for replacing the word “courting” with “dating”. It’s almost like Sanderson finds it funny when his characters drop these modern terms, but imo it just is not worth it.
He’s the perfect example of the guy who thinks he’s too cool for school. He firmly believes that he’s more clever than everyone else. I’m re-reading it now and there are several places where the same character literally repeats certain lines over and over again. And the panel even mentions the fact that BEFORE Lift used to have her own distinct voice. Now Kaladin, Renarin, Shallan, Pattern, pick your character they all sound the same - juvenile, childish and cringe
@@Belkerlos Imo word choice matters when you are trying to evoke a certain type of setting. Obv this is subjective, but it’s weird for them to use certain modern words (Another example: May referring to herself as Aydolin’s “Ex”) even if there are technically no rules. Ofc Roshar is its own world with its own rules, but “racism” has never really been explored much as a concept there compared to, say, caste discrimination, and it’s strange to consider different varieties of spren “races”. It’s been a while since I’ve read the previous books, but I don’t remember them referring to themselves in that way. Westeros isn’t real either, but if someone called Tywin Lannister a homophobic boomer for being rude to Loras it would feel odd. For the record I still generally like Wind and Truth and appreciate Sanderson as an author, but it feels like his priorities and style have changed and it can be hard not to notice at times.
As far as the "modern" language that Maya uses, I just want to point out a couple things. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) We actually know little to nothing about how Spren talked before the Recreance. Even the Spren admit most are too "young" or don't remember much about them. The whole development of a deadeye talking is new and it's possible a lot of them talked like that. Roshar's gone through many cycles of cultures and probably slang for 10,000-ish(?) years. I think it's easy to overlook how much can change in this amount of time. It's possible that their language used more "modern" terms and then people started to trend back to older language. Or it's possible that Spren just liked to talk like that a thousand years ago. But I'm sure there's other instances where this argument doesn't apply. Just a long ramble about a specific situation
The problem with Sanderson's explanation for the modern language is that he hasn't managed people's expectations. I've read nearly every cosmere book and at no point did I ever realize there was supposed to be some meta-narrative about this being translated from Cosmere-ish to English. It's fine if he wanted to do that, but he should have established that expectation. That said, I have no problem with the more modern language in Mistborn era 2, for instance, where it's explicitly moving into the industrial revolution. I would expect language to shift as technology shifts. The problem with Stormlight Archive is that that's not what happened - it's firmly backwards medieval society where a very small number of people are making discoveries.
I 100% agree with Sophia's takes. I had the ebook along with audiobook, but I guess the speed was fast enough for me not to be bothered. Even if I did notice something, I was just 'meh' and continued on. But since you mentioned the word "okay"... I feel like a major hypocrite now, because I have a gripe with it in fantasy settings like WaT. I read a book (just physical), where it was used so much I got so annoyed. Now.... My kindle says that "okay" is used in WaT 14 times.... And I never noticed it. (I blame the audiobook lol.)
I disagree with Brandon when he says he uses modern language the same as he always has. Compare Wind and Truth to The Way of Kings. The language Brandon uses is light and day. His whole writing style has changed since he blew up as an author, and I think that’s because, he knows, he can write anything and it will be published. Whereas, him back in the early 2000’s, didn’t even KNOW TWoK would be published, so of course the writing will be different. Also it’s been almost 20 years lol. For me, TWoKs prose is more “serious” than his prose now, and I think it’s because his “modern” writing makes it seem not nearly as serious or epic
You make a good point, I do also think that in 20 years it would be hard to not just change as a person (independent of your thought of it being brand vs quality). I feel like in the last ten years my internal monolog in my head has changed
@@akshayhere”I’m game”, “valid”, “laser sharp”, etc… this type of language wasn’t so transparent in WoK. Also the the mental health is now taking over and as this is 10 days it is cheap. If he wants to take it seriously it’s not a thing to “resolve” people in a day like Kaladin did 2! people on his journey. Even a PhD therapist couldn’t do that. The idea in book 4 wasn’t bad but now it went downhill. Also edit: repeating everything more. “Yes we understand that Adolin knows the solders name. You don’t have to explain it that many times… yes we understand why it is good…”
I literally just reread WoK through Oathbringer over this last month and I pretty heartily disagree. His weird quirky modern lingo usage was definitely there all along, often through the mouths of the same characters (Shallan and Lift most egregiously off the top of my head). It used to bother me quite a bit, but I've come to take it as evidence of Brando's love for the campy. It does serve those particular characters'...characters. Obviously as those characters (and characters like them) appear more, that language will also appear more. That should be (and seems to be) the case.
The modern language usage created the funniest parts of the book. I would bust out laughing. And the irreverent vibes Kaladin and Szeth were giving me were hilarious as well. I loved it.
As far as the humor is concerned, I grew up in an ethnically Roma family, where TV was non-existent and verbal storytelling was the norm. I consider my grandma the best storyteller ever, G-d rest her soul! She would tell these horrendous true stories about our family going through slavery and then fighting through the 3 wars on the Balkans, and it would have been traumatizing and disturbing, but she would always bring us all to ourselves by saying something absurd and hilarious in seemingly the most inappropriate moments. It was how we learned to survive through laughter even in the hardest moments. I think the most difficult moments in a story need those silly pauses for levity, because life is too hard not to find joy even in the darkest places... Love your discussions!❤😊
This might sound negative-I’m a huge fan and really enjoyed WaT except for most of the common criticisms…..but yeah, he’s targeting too broad an audience these days. Insisting that The Sunlit Man is a fine place to enter the Cosmere was a telltale sign that quality hereon might take a small dip. The narrative is always excellent, including in WaT, but it seems clear that the cost of accessibility is getting higher and higher. Putting the constant “good person” lessons that plague the first few hundred pages of this book aside, he was constantly over-explaining past events and character development-not because he thinks his core audience is stupid (that’s an unfair criticism), but because he wants readers who haven’t tried his other series to not feel left behind. My take here is that THEY SHOULD. This should have already happened before Mistborn Era 2, but certainly after Stromlight 5 there needs to be a hard line beyond which he recommends not reading without first catching up with most everything that has come before.
The modern language in this book reminds me of when the Game of Thrones tv show randomly inserted Ed Sheeran into a scene to sing a song lol. It is very refreshing to have a discussion on brandosando criticisms, for so long it's felt like he's been put on a pedestal and could do no wrong.
As a long-time fan of Sanderson, I agree it’s very refreshing to see criticisms being more openly discussed. All this time I’ve felt like I was the only one not drinking the Cosmere Kool-aid. Honestly, I think it’s because he’s surrounded by too many ‘yes men’-both in his team and among his alpha and beta readers-and it feels like he stopped listening to his editor entirely. And as happy as I am for his success, I can’t help but miss the writer that he was back in 2008-2013, before he got swept up by his own popularity and shifted his focus from to quantity instead of quality.
I think the shift in tone, to the extent it’s there, is reflective of where the characters are in their journey/who they are. Kaladin is in a different place in his arc in WaT than in WoK and that’s reflected in the tone of the chapters we get from his perspective. But at the same time I think the tone of Adolin’s sections is actually pretty bleak at parts when it’s fitting with the action (trying to avoid spoilers) but Adolin also isn’t always a super serious person and never has been, and I think the tone in his sections account for that.
That's one of the other problems, though. Wind and Truth follows immediately after the events of Rhythm of War, and when you think about what Kaladin almost did in the CLIMAX of that book... Kaladin's mental state in Wind and Truth feels like an immense and unexplained leap forward. "Kaladin felt good." Okay. Cool. But yesterday he almost fell to his death, intentionally. Make it make sense
I mean to me it did make sense-he had an important emotionally breakthrough at the end of book 4, and carried that forward (not perfectly, but better) in to book 5 and I thought it was great, really satisfying. But if it didn’t emotionally make sense to you that’s okay. I don’t think it’s the sort of thing that I could “make” make sense for you. I think it’s the sort of thing that either resonates with your personal experiences or doesn’t
@@mrnemoid we literally see Kal take steps to improve his mental health in book 4. Books 1-4 were always about Kal’s journey through his mental health. Why Kaladin is doing better in book 5 is one of the things that’s clearly shown and done well. Kaladin didn’t just wake up one morning and feel great. It was a struggle to get where he currently is. I agree with you. It definitely makes sense.
@@thomasray I mean the BIG issue of Kal was being unable to stop blaming himself for all of the death surrounding him (Teft, Tien, Maps, Dunny, all the rest). What allowed him to speak the 4th ideal was exactly that, being able to forgive himself, realizing that even though they did die, it wasn't his fault, which surprise, surprise, made him not feel awful every single day anymore.
I think I have an idea as to how Brandon is not noticing a stylistic change in his writing, but some of you are. I might positive the changes within setting. In the early Stormlight Archive books, everyone is holding up a professional and rigid front, trying to play into the roles that they each are. However, as each character breaks out of the molds that they initially think they're required to uphold, they become more casual and informal, leading to language that reflects more casual and informal diction in modern dialect
He's got all kind of in universe cursing and colloquialisms he could have kept using and developing to suit that purpose. Maybe he thinks snarky quirky modernisms are more fun but I personally find it off putting irl so putting it in roshar just makes it worse.
I’ve literally (with no exaggeration) read the entire Cosmere in just under a year, and the Stormlight Archive books twice as a recap before WaT and I truly did not see a drop off in quality of editing or a change to more “modern” language. If anything the earlier books (Elantris for example) were not as good. And yes I read a LOT across a wide range of other authors and genres too, so I do have a sense of perspective. I think people just love being overly critical and clever about very popular books, it’s ok to just enjoy something and not worry about it being perfect. I’m not picking up a fantasy book expecting - or wanting - to have my mind blown at the prose. There were a couple of things that jarred a bit for me in WaT but it wasn’t the quality of writing, and the positives so overwhelmingly outweighed the negatives, that I don’t really care. In a 1300 page book, it’s inevitable to not love everything, but I was impressed and satisfied with how he pulled the ending together.
Great comment! I really think the main issue is that people are only remembering the good of all his other books and for some reason (probably reading other prose-focused authors recently) are hyper-focused on his writing style, which (as someone who also just chugged through the whole Cosmere in the last year) did not feel much different to me in this book than all the others
I think it's really cool Brando cares enough about his fans to write out a reaction to this stuff. It seems like there is a substantial minority of fans that are stuck in full literary critique mode. Just as an average reader I don't recognize any change in tone, wordchoice, or humor. The whole book seemed very Sanderson to me and I thought it was awesome. SPOILERS. Specifically, child Szeth beating someone to death with a rock is pretty dark. Szeth has to kill his own family members. You've got baby Gav being brainwashed to hate Dalinar. There are a lot of serious dark moments. I can't think of any jokes that undercut a big moment. The Syl chull joke is definitely on the nose and vulgar but that is kind of the point. I totally get that some people might be put off by it. Syl has made comments on the whole subject of sexuality in previous books though. She happens to be the most humanoid type of spren and it seems natural that this would come up at some point and there is no way for it to not be awkward. Syl also has a very abrasive sense of humor. I thought it was totally in line with her character to address it like that. The Maya joke doesn't undercut a serious moment. I guess you think its funny or you don't. As far as word choice Sanderson sort of famously uses a more modern style of prose. I didn't really notice that he went from using "courting" to "dating". Now that I'm thinking about it, it kind of makes sense for Maya's character because she comes from a different time where Roshar's culture wasn't so repressed with the safe hand and different modesty standards. We are constantly seeing Roshar become more metropolitan with people from other worlds coming to Roshar and culture norms changing. It kind of works imo. Also somebody said Lift and Kaladin chapters sound the same. No way. You are truly lost if you are seriously believing that.
I have been shot gunning Abercrombie this entire year and stopped short of the last AoM book to read Wind and Truth. My goodness I have never bounced off a book so hard. Abercrombie has spoiled me as a writer.
Sanderson has always had a YA tone to his writing mainly because of his juvenile humour, corny dialogue, average teenage American language and a tendency to tell not show, but we love him anyway because his stories are amazing, but all these issues have been dialled up massively for Wind and Truth and I am having a really hard time ignoring them. For the first time, it’s frequently immersion breaking. That being said, we all make mistakes and I massively respect Sanderson for paying attention and responding to criticism, it’s too late to change Wind and Truth now, but I trust that future books won’t be the same. This is still a huge and exciting blockbuster book though with the fantastic plot you would expect from Sanderson. The over focus on mental health, diversity and the alternate realm settings makes it my least favourite story of the five so far but that is of course subjective but I’m still enjoying it.
38:39 This exactly. ZOMGfantasy channel articulated this point very well with a specific example in their review. The Lift chapters, the dialogue feels like lift, (which is great, it’s Lift) but the rest feels like Kaladin or Dalinar chapters. This creates a disconnect.
RoW i caught glimpses of it. But WaT felt the worse. Modern phrasing. Over explaining. Some emotional punches i felt needed polishing. As liftea mentioned, this book felt a lot more noticeable and broke immersion for me. I hope 10 year gap allows a return to form from Sanderson
I wonder if Sanderson has allowed Dan Wells to ghost write chapters or sections for certain characters. Sanderson announced that Dan Wells would become heavily involved in the Cosmere in some capacity. In certain parts, the writing style feels as though it comes straight from a Dan Wells book.
I like the discussion on the humor, helped organize my thoughts on why it doesnt land here. I loved it in the early books- the bridge 4 banter, shallans quirks and interactions with pattern, wits barbs, all very well done. But much of it was self contained and severed to release some tension between other dark and emotional scenes. Now it seems peppered thouout much more in a way that undercuts many deeper moments. Definitely marvel in tone where we cant sit with anything emotional too long or we might feel something uncomfortable, has to be undercut with a quip of some snark.
I would say the book was a 4/5. The PoV switching was a bit much and we are told exactly how the characters feel a lot. I understand he writes a lot of mental health representation (really well I might add) but there was a bit too much on the nose representation this time around. It almost gave the feeling there was a checklist. I agree with Sophia about the modernizing of the language. I didn't really notice until everyone else pointed out the changes. I listened to the audiobook and Michael and Kate did amazing again. The one thing that stood out to me was when Wit tells Kaladin he invented therapy. However I assumed that was because I saw a bad description of RoW that was "a man and his fairy invent therapy." I would rank it 4th out of the 5 books. (2, 1, 4, 3, 5)
Well, Wit is perhaps the only character that can use somewhat modern language, like the word "therapist" because of the context that he's a worldhopper, who knows how many worlds he has been to, and in how many therapy was a thing.
So my hot take as a listener only, and having finished this book, I will be sure to avoid spoilers. I have definitely felt through all of his books, like noted here. Put it kind of in the front of the book, what the pace is gonna be like, how the characters are gonna feel, and how the world feels. And with Stormlight being the one I feel most deeply rooted in and impacted by. I have felt through this book that it has definitely taken a shift, maybe via language use or character journey, but definitely can feel the change. Mistborn, though much shorter books by comparison, I feel kind of kept their toneality and personality very well. We are shown the world, language, and characters. Then we are taken on an adventure having known the rules and truating he will keep to them. Yet, for WaT, all the way through it felt like peaks and valleys. The rules were established, but now we are seeing how far we can bend them, and it definitely felt off-putting. At the end of the day, I will always be a Sanderson fan. But I was really hoping to put this higher up on the list of my personal tanking for the series. Yet I can't help but feel this falls pretty low, and for me, it is just because it lost the consistency in tonality it promised from the start. Anyway, thank you for showing us your discussion it was a great listen, and I am always excited to hear as you progress through. It feels like getting to sit on with friends who care as deeply as I do. Keep up the great work!
There’s been a strong overarching drive to modernize across all series in the Cosmere - particularly in SA and Mistborn Era 2 - so I find it funny that people feel like the language modernizing feels so out of place. Like ya, the language is modernizing - just like the technology on Roshar, social conventions/norms on Roshar, etc.
I will also add that I think the total exclusion of male perspective in this conversation really holds it back and makes it unsatisfying. A lot of the complaints in this discussion lack understanding of male relationships and perspectives - which makes it more funny when the occasional reference to an off-screen man’s opinion pops up and his view is different than those being discussed by those on-screen.
Sure, modernizing is a big piece of the Cosmere and Stormlight, somewhat, however language evolves fast sure, but not THAT fast. (WaT literally happens right after RoW, there's no reason to change that much from book to book).
@@octavianmihu7861 On earth, the time period between us using “courting” and “dating” consistently was like 20 - 30 years, but the difference between us going from male-dominant absolute monarchies to women heads of representative states being socially accepted was centuries - yet they occur in the same time span in Stormlight. Similarly, the time span between literal slavery in the West and social acceptance of LGBTQ+ ppl was massive in comparison - yet, we readers for some reason don’t find that nearly as anachronistic on Roshar as a spren using the word “slut.” If anything, the language of Roshar is modernizing much slower that social and cultural norms are, so why is it the language that seems to be the sticking point here?
I think the style was much more in line with what we saw in Tress and Yumi, almost YA in some ways. I think the movement of the Cosmere dichotomy is pushing some of this as well. But I felt a real difference in the tone of this book. But my bigger problems were the usage of certain characters like Navani, Shallan, and Renarin. I still have to read the last 25% and hope that resolves the issues.
Hot take: I think Brandon's writing is all in the YA style natively and Wheel of Time and Stormlight is where he tried to break away from that. It just really bled through here at the end
I really think he's not getting the constructive criticism. Everything since Bands of Mourning has suffered from bloat, poor pacing, too much cringe humor, wild tonal shifts, telling instead of showing, and loss of direction. I'm glad that I pushed through WaT so I could have some closure, but my Cosmere journey is over.
I can see all of that. I personally didn't find the humor in the Stormlight Archives cringe, but the second era of Mistborn was almost unreadable by the end exactly because of how cringe the humor got ..
I think the thing is that the things you’re critiquing, which are totally fair imo for what it’s worth, just aren’t really objective things. Like not everyone thinks the books are bloated, or that the pacing poor, etc. Maybe those books “suffered@ from those problems for you, but other people genuinely like those aspects of his stories. I don’t think it’s that he’s just “not getting” the criticism. I think probably he just thinks it’s a matter of taste and writes what he wants.
@mrnemoid Yes, these are things that I (and a lot of other people) are noticing. There has been a sharp decline in quality since Bands of Mourning. Another thing, I was in my early 20s when I started with Mistborn. I'm 38 now. There's a huge gulf there, and I just can't do YA disguised as adult fantasy anymore.
@@jessi4894 and you think these things are objective? I ask because the point of my comment wasn’t to say that you’re wrong or anything, just that they’re a matter of taste and they seem like things he’s doing on purpose.
I agree. His writing has severely dipped in quality for a while now. I miss the writer he was back in 2008-2013. And I think you’re right that he’s not getting the constructive criticism, or he’s blatantly ignoring it. He mentioned in a recent video on his channel that he pretty much avoids reading reviews unless they’re positive, and even then, he has his team read them and filter out anything below 3 stars. So not only does he ignore his editors, but he also keeps a constant filter that takes out a lot of constructive feedback. It feels like he’s unintentionally trapped himself in an echo chamber of ‘yes men.’
The devil's in the details. No, really. The details will bury you alive before you're finished writing! The same thing happened to GRRM (and arguably Rothfuss) and I almost consider it the Grim Reaper of authors.
Honestly, the dumb jokes at the end of the world might be due to him consulting military people on his writing. Straight up those dump moments happen all the time. I get the criticism though.
This may not be the same for everybody but this is my experience. Coming from someone who just read Stormlight for the first time this year (twice), so I did not have forever to get my expectations up or to gain nostalgia glasses for this series: I completely agree that the tone of WaT is a lot less serious than WoK, like the commentators in this video said. BUT (again, this is my opinion), the writing in WaT is just as bad and unfunny and annoying as every other Stormlight book after WoK. I don’t mean that in an overly negative way: I just mean that it’s been like this for a while. I think if people went back and read WoR with an objective pair of eyes, they’d see it’s pretty much the same as WaT in terms of tone - the boots scene, the shart-plate scene, Shallan becoming an absurd caricature of herself. Maybe WaT’s particular sin is the use of modern words, or telling instead of showing, I don’t know. I didn’t notice much of a difference between this and OB or this and RoW. To me, I think what we’re seeing is a lot of people are just reading Stormlight for the first time in years, with a fresh set of eyes, with expectations being the highest they’ve ever been, and they’re just now noticing that it’s been like this for three books now. Again, I’m not at all a stormlight hater. I wouldn’t have read the series twice this year if I was. I like (maybe not love) WoR through WaT. I just think if people were being objective they’d see the tonal shift and quality drop didn’t happen in book 5 (or even book 4), it happened in book 2, and it’s been this way ever since.
Agree with talnELLE. The tone was different in this book - a lot lighter and some very modern language, like “goobering” - which was very jarring. It was his “saidared” moment (from WoT), for me. For all the nitpicks, I loved this book and this ending.
@@thomasraytherapist is not a good example of modern language. Wit taught Kal that word. When Kal uses it, no one knows what he is talking about. He has to explain it.
here’s the way I see it-and my theory. the books shouldn’t have modern language because of the promises of the genre and, more importantly, the tone and setting first established in The Way of Kings. In WoK, the world was introduced with ancient tech and feudal systems inspired by ancient cultures. Epic fantasy as a genre is rooted in mythology and history, creating a sense of timelessness that readers expect. If you’ve read other fantasy works, you’ll know that modern language can break immersion and defeat the purpose of escapism-something fantasy is traditionally known for. In urban fantasies like Harry Potter and The Dresden Files, modern language makes sense because they’re set in our world. But even Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time avoids modern language, despite taking place in the future on Earth. He didn’t use words like ‘awesomeness’ or ‘therapist’. Instead, he maintained a consistent and immersive tone, respecting the genre’s expectations. Of course, there’s the world-hopper in-world excuse for Stormlight, but that doesn’t make it any less jarring for readers expecting the escapism of epic fantasy. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk
I bounced off is so hard after reading 8 Joe Abercrombie books back to back before WoT. Maybe ill get back to it one day, but I feel like I have out grown Sanderson
@@gnomishviking3013 I mean I don't know you but so that might be right, but I still think Words of Radiance is an amazing book, I don't think Wind and Truth is bad because I've outgrown anything, Wind and Truth is bad because the writing decisions are poor
I enjoyed Wind and Truth (prob 7/10 for me). I thought it was much better than Rhythm of War. That said, I think the quality of the writing is the worst for any Sanderson book since Elantris. It was overly long with a bunch of bloat/fluff. He completely gave up on the concept of subtlety and just beat us over the head with whatever mental health message he wanted to convey. The Shallan/Renarin/Rlain arc did almost nothing to progress the plot and felt shoehorned in just to give those characters something to do and so that Sanderson could ham-fisted include a more prominent gay romance. A lot of the transitions between POV's felt jarring and out of place. The whole thing was just kind of a mess IMO.
Please don’t use your homophobia as an excuse to bash the writing. The writing was shitty because characters were using random phrases that were never used in prior novels. Why am I reading about Syl’s chullusy?
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 You seriously want to argue that it was a well done romance that didn't feel shoehorned into the story or that those two characters had anything to contribute to the plot other than the romance? Please, go ahead. I'm all ears.
@ Renarin Has always felt like an outsider and being the Blackthorn’s son has always had a minor role in the books. But starting in Oathbringer / RoW, Odium/Rayse and Taravangian mention the fact that because hes close to Dalinar that the future is warped around him. They’ve been laying the grounders for two novels now to clearly show that Renarin will have a big role to play in the back half of the series. Similarly - Rlain has always felt like an outsider within Bridge 4 and if you had bothered to read his scenes you’d know that last novel they alluded to the fact that something went different the first time he tried mateform. Rlain is a singer and when he got his Soren, he also got a title “Bridger of Minds”. So it’s clear he also will play a significant role for interactions between the singers and humans in the future The two of them getting together seems reasonable to me. As far as plot, you seem to be purposely dense - their role was to find and release Ba-Ado-Mishram and show her that not all humans are bad and that peace can be achieved
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 You're completely missing the point. I don't care if Renarin and Rlain are gay. Sanderson pretty much always includes a gay character or two. Moreover, I don't care if they are going to play a large roll in the 2nd of half of Stormlight. The problem is that Sanderson didn't have a plan for those two characters in THIS book. They spend the entire story following Shallan around as she follows Dalinar and Novani around. They do nothing and have no agency until their final chapter when they release Ba-Ado-Mishram. All they do is sit around and talk/think about how much they like each other. Stormlight isn't a YA romance novel. No one is reading them for that. Moreover, Sanderson is famously bad at writing romance. The fact is that Sanderson has been criticized for only making side characters gay and he wanted to correct that with Renarin. The problem is that he really didn't have anything for Renarin to do in this book so he just haphazardly shoved him into the Shallan arc and it doesn't fit.
@ no you’re missing the point. The point is that both Rlain and Renarin are connected to Sjanat due to their Soren. Sjanat is of course and Unmade and is thinking bout her fellow Unmade “sister”. They had every reason to be part of that plot line. But you do you
Man, I get some of the criticisms, but this feels like we’ve missed the forest for the trees with this book. I’m glad people are honest with their opinions, but I just finished a 65 hour book (audiobook listener) and can we talk about more than just writing style? (I know this isn’t their main book review, but that main review was more of the same). There are so many incredible moments, beautiful moments, tragic moments, etc. I’m fine having an honest discussion about writing style, but can that be 5-10% of the discussion and the actual book be the rest?
With modern lingo gripes i get it. For me the world is almost medieval so i would preferred some older sounding terms like trollup/harlot instead of slut but i get why it was used. Not alot of negative male versions of that word to grab that sound consistent
Some of us liked roshar because it was so unique and totally divorced from anything in our world. Sure there was still stuff people are complaining about with WaT like the modern language and modern mental heath issues as character traits and such, but used sparingly and just enough to help build immersion without totally cracking it. Last few books brandon seems to be trying to use the language, characters, religion, politics, mental health, and nearly every aspect he can to map it onto our world. Everything seems to have a counterpoint in our world so now everything in roshar has to be an analogy or critique or at the very least be seen simply because it exist here. It lessens it. Wish he'd have had the courage and confidence to let his world stand on its own. It was beautiful for a time.
I am not a native English speaker and still noticed immediately the difference between this book and the others. The quality dropped significantly if anyone says otherwise just doesn’t listen to the book in hand. Of course the “modern language” is very transparent. But it’s also funny. Why? Branson became a gen z kid or uses too much TikToks? The tell not show is disappointing because not just that but the repetition with it makes it really annoying (handles the reader like children) plus this info dumps are more often appearing in dialogues making them unrealistic. Also all this and the mental health over-explanation added at least 300 pages to the book. Because the mental health is not that good as some people think. The “accessible” is not a good explanation for this.
Sanderson stories read like a manhwa, as if narrated by a cheeky narrator who throws their own slang in the middle of it. WaT has just the worst kind of narrator that just spends half an hour on each manhwa slide going through every feeling.
I overall really enjoyed the book, but some of the jokes did land flat with me, and usually i'm laughing out loud when I come across them in his other works. It was really only a couple jokes that didn't land out of the dozens that were in there.
I feel like the criticism that Sanderson is facing with this book is mostly just nitpicky subjective commentary. Brandon has been at the top of the fantasy genre for so long and has been so prolific over the last 5 years that some people are just tired of seeing him due to market saturation, so folks are feeling the need to prove his "mortality" so to speak. I'm not saying all the critiques he's received are invalid but this book is getting WAY too much negative press for the quality of storytelling that is displayed. I think this 3 year gap between cosmere novels is going to be whats best for everyone. It will give the industry time to grow and breathe and when Sanderson comes out with Ghostbloods 1, people will be more open to his writting again. My point is, Sandersons writing is a great as it's ever been (even better in many regards), but we've gotten 7 large novels in the last 4 years from him and I think the novelty has started to wear off for some people.
I spent the first half of 2024 reading Prachett and have now spent my summer and fall shot gunning 8 Joe Abercrombie First Law books back to back. I stopped short of the final Abercrombie book to read Wind and Truth. My god, I have never bounced off a book so hard. I was so spoiled by Abercrombie that I really didnt enjoy Sanderson's writing. That being said WoK and WoR where some of my fav fantasy books ever when I read them, but every Sanderson book after has been a little less than I hoped for.
That happened to me after reading a Malazan book and the First Law trilogy. Then when I picked up Oathrbringer, it was borderline unreadable to me. I could only audiobook it after that.
I'm pretty sure I've read plenty of classic literature pre-20th century that has italicization for emphasis, but I can definitely see how it wouldn't be to everyone's taste.
OMG - TalnELLR Liftea GETS IT. The writing and TONE has changed from TWOK to WAT. If you’ve read The Dandelion Dynasty or any other current author you’ll see GREAT WRITING. Sanderson is a TERRIBLE writer and he’s just getting worse. Sure he’s good at world building but he sucks at all else He’s just brushing it aside -typical Sanderson arrogance. The book was 2 out of 5 stars. This isn’t epic fantasy anymore - it’s written like juvenile YA bs Why does this book have “umm”, “shit”, etc etc
Yeah his strength for a while has been that he's and ideas man and can write like a machine. There should be a balance somewhere between pumping out content vs taking the time to refine the ideas at the expense of slowing down his output. It's easier to come to terms with in stuff like the secret project but he could let his main series cook and develop a bit longer.
@@lacramaldita2230 you bring up a good point. I haven’t even read Mistborn but I hear Era 1 was fantastic but Era 2 was meh / mid. Seems to be a common theme with him. Frankly if he were a great writer or even adequate he’d be able to have his own distinct voice / style that’s prominent in most of his novels. Instead it seems like he goes nuts trying to prove that he’s capable of going from A to B to C depending on the series and it all just becomes a hot mess.
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 A good writer is one who can write good stories and characters, and Sanderson does that. He adds that his worldbuilding and magic systems are excellent. I like that the tone of the work varies between sagas or arcs on different planets. It makes it versatile. I like Era 1 better, but Era 2 has a lot of fans, especially in Latin America and Spain.
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 And don't be mistaken, I was referring to Ken Liu's work where it is said that the first volume is good, and the rest is crap. Courtesy of reddit
TLDR 1330 page book wasn’t depressing enough for some readers. Also some readers didn’t like how Wit is brining more modern day language into the series.
@@williamcampbell5833 maybe you should watch the video before you make a TLDR. Who said anything about wanting more depressing shit? And there's so much more to the modern language complaint than just Wit
Great discussion/back and forth. ‘This is the story I want to tell’ - so, you hear criticism and then just throw it in the trash. Mature. What I hate about his humor is how juvenile it is. It makes me question why I read him. If I could remove every bit of juvenile/childish humor from his books, I’d do it right now. Main reason why it frustrates us is because it takes me out of the story and I just see him cackling at this dumb joke. And becuase of how good I found his writing. From what I gather from listening here, his writing has worsened in this book, with the constant telling over showing. Going to reread WOR since I only read jt once, then Oathbringer since it was just once (hopefully I like it more), and then ROW and WAT for the first time. I’m thinking I may be out on Sanderson after this. One positive is him saying he’ll ’look at’ some of the criticism. To this I say, show change/growth, don’t tell.
He isn’t obligated to listen to or incorporate criticism from readers. It seems like lots of authors don’t. It’s not about pride or immaturity. Authors should write the stories they want to write, and the results will work for some people and not for others. That’s okay. Sure, anyone who’s seriously working on their craft will take constructive feedback to heart, but that may or may not result in the reader’s desired change.
I still say the man needs an editor. And I guess I just look at him often like a grown child, hence the mature comment. I’ll retract that comment, because I tend to agree with you.
TLDR 1330 page book wasn’t depressing enough for some readers. Also some readers didn’t like how Wit is brining more modern day language into the series.
Here's my unflattering theory: I think the further along a series you go, the more you care about the details you never cared about before, because your perception of the series becomes more and more solidified over time. I have yet to hear a valid example of something legitimately WRONG with the writing in Wind and Truth that wasn't counterable with either "that was a nitpick about 1 out of 150 chapters" or "that existed just as much in the other books and you just forgot."
I'm not saying its an invalid opinion to not LOVE his writing, because he clearly is going for a book with wide appeal, and that isn't going to land for everyone, but to say he's somehow taken a nosedive is ludicrous. I've seen people on youtube with large platforms rate this book 6 or 7 out of 10 while claiming to be massive Cosmere fans. If you pull 10 random books off of the shelf at Barnes and Noble you aren't getting 3-4 books at least as good as this. That's actually ridiculous. I actually cannot understand where people are coming from with some of these complaints. The humor not landing is one thing, but to say the humor is significantly WORSE than his other books, or that it isn't even comparable to other, similar fantasy books is insanity.
This!!
Basically you're right. For me Stormlight arc 1 is a solid 10/10. You can count epic fantasy sagas with more than 3 volumes and that they remain stable. One of the people in the video says "oh I came from The Dandelion Dynasty, which is majestically written, and now I'm reading Wind and Truth, oh my god I don't like it, I'm changing as a reader." She doesn't mention Robin Hoob, Ursula le Guin, Rothfuss, G.R.R Martin, but an author who does speculative fiction, and according to user reviews only the first volume is good, and the others not so much. Then I read further down someone saying "after reading Malazan and the first law, it seems that Sanderson is very meh." I read the first law. I was able to finish it because I really liked a character, but I had a hard time continuing because his world was so boring. Abercrombie's grimdark is not my thing. As for Malazan, I really liked this one. It's a bit chaotic because of the number of characters, and between volumes you end up forgetting what they did in the previous ones. I don't know if I'll ever get around to rereading it, just remembering Karsa Orlong discourages me.
I genuinely don't understand all the criticism of this book. I finished it last night, and I'm still reeling. I loved it, and my Cosmere buddy did as well. No art made by someone else is ever going to be exactly what you want it to be. If you want something you deem "perfect," go write it yourself. I think many people forget that they are consumers of another human's art, and if that human is happy with it, that is what matters. I don't want Brandon to write for me. I want Brandon to write for Brandon because that is what I've enjoyed all these years and continue to enjoy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but some of the takes I have been seeing are just plain bad from my POV.
@@allisterhasADHD Mostly because of his popularity. I can't take seriously people who say that The Rhythm of War, Yumi, Tress or Wind and Truth are worse written than Sanderson's 2008-2013 work. I want to give an example of an artist/author from another medium. Christopher Nolan. He became known for Memento, but it was the TDK trilogy that shot his fame up. He continued making good films like The Prestige, Interstellar or Inception. But as his fame rose, so did the number of detractors. Many said he was an overrated, pretentious director, who wasn't in the big leagues of directors. Finally he won an Oscar, so he received the recognition he deserves. Returning to Sanderson, unfortunately he won't win a Nebula or Hugo (because of how these awards are), but neither did Rothfuss, Martin, Abercrombie or Erikson.
@@lacramaldita2230 completely agree with you (also loving the comparison because inception is one of my favorite movies lol). I think people just need to generally chill out. Style evolves, and that isn't a bad thing! I don't want to read the same book for 30 years. Lol.
Ask soldiers if they still find time for humor in times of war. The answer is yes because they must
+1 - Deflecting with humor is pretty common for a lot of forms of trauma.
There was potty humor in WoK too.
Yeah poop spren was a callback
There was, and some dialogue scene from WoR is mentioned here as a good example of potty humor, because it's less about humor in itself, it's more about context (Although the humor can still be jarring. To keep it non-spoilery, I'm only gonna say "chull")
I don’t recall any of that being there and even then like the panel said these jokes don’t occur at moments that should bd touching or moving
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 what about Lift telling Dalinar he has a nice ass, moments after the “You cannot have my pain” scene?
When Syl called Kaladin “racist” for a punchline, my eyes practically rolled out of my skull. That’s an explicitly modern term that didn’t exist until the 20th Century, there’s no reason any of these characters should know what it means. There’s no reason she couldn’t have just called him “reductive” or “ignorant” for the same joke without shattering immersion.
It goes the same for replacing the word “courting” with “dating”. It’s almost like Sanderson finds it funny when his characters drop these modern terms, but imo it just is not worth it.
He’s the perfect example of the guy who thinks he’s too cool for school. He firmly believes that he’s more clever than everyone else.
I’m re-reading it now and there are several places where the same character literally repeats certain lines over and over again.
And the panel even mentions the fact that BEFORE Lift used to have her own distinct voice.
Now Kaladin, Renarin, Shallan, Pattern, pick your character they all sound the same - juvenile, childish and cringe
@@PaSa7887 it's a FANTASY. It's not actually earth history
@@Belkerlos Imo word choice matters when you are trying to evoke a certain type of setting. Obv this is subjective, but it’s weird for them to use certain modern words (Another example: May referring to herself as Aydolin’s “Ex”) even if there are technically no rules.
Ofc Roshar is its own world with its own rules, but “racism” has never really been explored much as a concept there compared to, say, caste discrimination, and it’s strange to consider different varieties of spren “races”. It’s been a while since I’ve read the previous books, but I don’t remember them referring to themselves in that way. Westeros isn’t real either, but if someone called Tywin Lannister a homophobic boomer for being rude to Loras it would feel odd.
For the record I still generally like Wind and Truth and appreciate Sanderson as an author, but it feels like his priorities and style have changed and it can be hard not to notice at times.
As far as the "modern" language that Maya uses, I just want to point out a couple things. (Please correct me if I'm wrong) We actually know little to nothing about how Spren talked before the Recreance. Even the Spren admit most are too "young" or don't remember much about them. The whole development of a deadeye talking is new and it's possible a lot of them talked like that. Roshar's gone through many cycles of cultures and probably slang for 10,000-ish(?) years. I think it's easy to overlook how much can change in this amount of time. It's possible that their language used more "modern" terms and then people started to trend back to older language. Or it's possible that Spren just liked to talk like that a thousand years ago. But I'm sure there's other instances where this argument doesn't apply. Just a long ramble about a specific situation
You’re just capping for Brandon
The problem with Sanderson's explanation for the modern language is that he hasn't managed people's expectations. I've read nearly every cosmere book and at no point did I ever realize there was supposed to be some meta-narrative about this being translated from Cosmere-ish to English. It's fine if he wanted to do that, but he should have established that expectation. That said, I have no problem with the more modern language in Mistborn era 2, for instance, where it's explicitly moving into the industrial revolution. I would expect language to shift as technology shifts. The problem with Stormlight Archive is that that's not what happened - it's firmly backwards medieval society where a very small number of people are making discoveries.
I 100% agree with Sophia's takes. I had the ebook along with audiobook, but I guess the speed was fast enough for me not to be bothered. Even if I did notice something, I was just 'meh' and continued on.
But since you mentioned the word "okay"... I feel like a major hypocrite now, because I have a gripe with it in fantasy settings like WaT. I read a book (just physical), where it was used so much I got so annoyed. Now.... My kindle says that "okay" is used in WaT 14 times.... And I never noticed it. (I blame the audiobook lol.)
I disagree with Brandon when he says he uses modern language the same as he always has. Compare Wind and Truth to The Way of Kings. The language Brandon uses is light and day. His whole writing style has changed since he blew up as an author, and I think that’s because, he knows, he can write anything and it will be published. Whereas, him back in the early 2000’s, didn’t even KNOW TWoK would be published, so of course the writing will be different. Also it’s been almost 20 years lol. For me, TWoKs prose is more “serious” than his prose now, and I think it’s because his “modern” writing makes it seem not nearly as serious or epic
You make a good point, I do also think that in 20 years it would be hard to not just change as a person (independent of your thought of it being brand vs quality). I feel like in the last ten years my internal monolog in my head has changed
I mostly agree but I believe that a big difference between WaT and WoK is the different POV's. I think there is more room for looser language.
I think you really missed so much modern vernacular in WoK. The characters are speaking Alethi not English anyway.
@@akshayhere”I’m game”, “valid”, “laser sharp”, etc… this type of language wasn’t so transparent in WoK. Also the the mental health is now taking over and as this is 10 days it is cheap. If he wants to take it seriously it’s not a thing to “resolve” people in a day like Kaladin did 2! people on his journey. Even a PhD therapist couldn’t do that. The idea in book 4 wasn’t bad but now it went downhill. Also edit: repeating everything more. “Yes we understand that Adolin knows the solders name. You don’t have to explain it that many times… yes we understand why it is good…”
I literally just reread WoK through Oathbringer over this last month and I pretty heartily disagree. His weird quirky modern lingo usage was definitely there all along, often through the mouths of the same characters (Shallan and Lift most egregiously off the top of my head). It used to bother me quite a bit, but I've come to take it as evidence of Brando's love for the campy. It does serve those particular characters'...characters. Obviously as those characters (and characters like them) appear more, that language will also appear more. That should be (and seems to be) the case.
The modern language usage created the funniest parts of the book. I would bust out laughing. And the irreverent vibes Kaladin and Szeth were giving me were hilarious as well. I loved it.
As far as the humor is concerned, I grew up in an ethnically Roma family, where TV was non-existent and verbal storytelling was the norm. I consider my grandma the best storyteller ever, G-d rest her soul! She would tell these horrendous true stories about our family going through slavery and then fighting through the 3 wars on the Balkans, and it would have been traumatizing and disturbing, but she would always bring us all to ourselves by saying something absurd and hilarious in seemingly the most inappropriate moments. It was how we learned to survive through laughter even in the hardest moments. I think the most difficult moments in a story need those silly pauses for levity, because life is too hard not to find joy even in the darkest places...
Love your discussions!❤😊
This might sound negative-I’m a huge fan and really enjoyed WaT except for most of the common criticisms…..but yeah, he’s targeting too broad an audience these days. Insisting that The Sunlit Man is a fine place to enter the Cosmere was a telltale sign that quality hereon might take a small dip. The narrative is always excellent, including in WaT, but it seems clear that the cost of accessibility is getting higher and higher. Putting the constant “good person” lessons that plague the first few hundred pages of this book aside, he was constantly over-explaining past events and character development-not because he thinks his core audience is stupid (that’s an unfair criticism), but because he wants readers who haven’t tried his other series to not feel left behind. My take here is that THEY SHOULD. This should have already happened before Mistborn Era 2, but certainly after Stromlight 5 there needs to be a hard line beyond which he recommends not reading without first catching up with most everything that has come before.
The modern language in this book reminds me of when the Game of Thrones tv show randomly inserted Ed Sheeran into a scene to sing a song lol.
It is very refreshing to have a discussion on brandosando criticisms, for so long it's felt like he's been put on a pedestal and could do no wrong.
Yeah it's interesting to see the wheel turn.
As a long-time fan of Sanderson, I agree it’s very refreshing to see criticisms being more openly discussed. All this time I’ve felt like I was the only one not drinking the Cosmere Kool-aid.
Honestly, I think it’s because he’s surrounded by too many ‘yes men’-both in his team and among his alpha and beta readers-and it feels like he stopped listening to his editor entirely. And as happy as I am for his success, I can’t help but miss the writer that he was back in 2008-2013, before he got swept up by his own popularity and shifted his focus from to quantity instead of quality.
I think the shift in tone, to the extent it’s there, is reflective of where the characters are in their journey/who they are. Kaladin is in a different place in his arc in WaT than in WoK and that’s reflected in the tone of the chapters we get from his perspective.
But at the same time I think the tone of Adolin’s sections is actually pretty bleak at parts when it’s fitting with the action (trying to avoid spoilers) but Adolin also isn’t always a super serious person and never has been, and I think the tone in his sections account for that.
That's one of the other problems, though. Wind and Truth follows immediately after the events of Rhythm of War, and when you think about what Kaladin almost did in the CLIMAX of that book... Kaladin's mental state in Wind and Truth feels like an immense and unexplained leap forward.
"Kaladin felt good."
Okay. Cool. But yesterday he almost fell to his death, intentionally. Make it make sense
@@thomasrayhow is Kal’s mental state in book 5 unexplained? We literally see him go through steps to improve his mental health in book 4.
I mean to me it did make sense-he had an important emotionally breakthrough at the end of book 4, and carried that forward (not perfectly, but better) in to book 5 and I thought it was great, really satisfying.
But if it didn’t emotionally make sense to you that’s okay. I don’t think it’s the sort of thing that I could “make” make sense for you. I think it’s the sort of thing that either resonates with your personal experiences or doesn’t
@@mrnemoid we literally see Kal take steps to improve his mental health in book 4. Books 1-4 were always about Kal’s journey through his mental health. Why Kaladin is doing better in book 5 is one of the things that’s clearly shown and done well. Kaladin didn’t just wake up one morning and feel great. It was a struggle to get where he currently is. I agree with you. It definitely makes sense.
@@thomasray I mean the BIG issue of Kal was being unable to stop blaming himself for all of the death surrounding him (Teft, Tien, Maps, Dunny, all the rest).
What allowed him to speak the 4th ideal was exactly that, being able to forgive himself, realizing that even though they did die, it wasn't his fault, which surprise, surprise, made him not feel awful every single day anymore.
I think I have an idea as to how Brandon is not noticing a stylistic change in his writing, but some of you are. I might positive the changes within setting. In the early Stormlight Archive books, everyone is holding up a professional and rigid front, trying to play into the roles that they each are. However, as each character breaks out of the molds that they initially think they're required to uphold, they become more casual and informal, leading to language that reflects more casual and informal diction in modern dialect
He's got all kind of in universe cursing and colloquialisms he could have kept using and developing to suit that purpose. Maybe he thinks snarky quirky modernisms are more fun but I personally find it off putting irl so putting it in roshar just makes it worse.
I’ve literally (with no exaggeration) read the entire Cosmere in just under a year, and the Stormlight Archive books twice as a recap before WaT and I truly did not see a drop off in quality of editing or a change to more “modern” language. If anything the earlier books (Elantris for example) were not as good. And yes I read a LOT across a wide range of other authors and genres too, so I do have a sense of perspective. I think people just love being overly critical and clever about very popular books, it’s ok to just enjoy something and not worry about it being perfect. I’m not picking up a fantasy book expecting - or wanting - to have my mind blown at the prose.
There were a couple of things that jarred a bit for me in WaT but it wasn’t the quality of writing, and the positives so overwhelmingly outweighed the negatives, that I don’t really care. In a 1300 page book, it’s inevitable to not love everything, but I was impressed and satisfied with how he pulled the ending together.
Great comment! I really think the main issue is that people are only remembering the good of all his other books and for some reason (probably reading other prose-focused authors recently) are hyper-focused on his writing style, which (as someone who also just chugged through the whole Cosmere in the last year) did not feel much different to me in this book than all the others
I think it's really cool Brando cares enough about his fans to write out a reaction to this stuff. It seems like there is a substantial minority of fans that are stuck in full literary critique mode.
Just as an average reader I don't recognize any change in tone, wordchoice, or humor. The whole book seemed very Sanderson to me and I thought it was awesome.
SPOILERS.
Specifically, child Szeth beating someone to death with a rock is pretty dark. Szeth has to kill his own family members. You've got baby Gav being brainwashed to hate Dalinar. There are a lot of serious dark moments. I can't think of any jokes that undercut a big moment. The Syl chull joke is definitely on the nose and vulgar but that is kind of the point. I totally get that some people might be put off by it. Syl has made comments on the whole subject of sexuality in previous books though. She happens to be the most humanoid type of spren and it seems natural that this would come up at some point and there is no way for it to not be awkward. Syl also has a very abrasive sense of humor. I thought it was totally in line with her character to address it like that. The Maya joke doesn't undercut a serious moment. I guess you think its funny or you don't. As far as word choice Sanderson sort of famously uses a more modern style of prose. I didn't really notice that he went from using "courting" to "dating". Now that I'm thinking about it, it kind of makes sense for Maya's character because she comes from a different time where Roshar's culture wasn't so repressed with the safe hand and different modesty standards. We are constantly seeing Roshar become more metropolitan with people from other worlds coming to Roshar and culture norms changing. It kind of works imo. Also somebody said Lift and Kaladin chapters sound the same. No way. You are truly lost if you are seriously believing that.
Joe abercrombie collab to insert actual humor would be fun
I have been shot gunning Abercrombie this entire year and stopped short of the last AoM book to read Wind and Truth. My goodness I have never bounced off a book so hard. Abercrombie has spoiled me as a writer.
Sanderson has always had a YA tone to his writing mainly because of his juvenile humour, corny dialogue, average teenage American language and a tendency to tell not show, but we love him anyway because his stories are amazing, but all these issues have been dialled up massively for Wind and Truth and I am having a really hard time ignoring them. For the first time, it’s frequently immersion breaking.
That being said, we all make mistakes and I massively respect Sanderson for paying attention and responding to criticism, it’s too late to change Wind and Truth now, but I trust that future books won’t be the same.
This is still a huge and exciting blockbuster book though with the fantastic plot you would expect from Sanderson. The over focus on mental health, diversity and the alternate realm settings makes it my least favourite story of the five so far but that is of course subjective but I’m still enjoying it.
38:39 This exactly. ZOMGfantasy channel articulated this point very well with a specific example in their review. The Lift chapters, the dialogue feels like lift, (which is great, it’s Lift) but the rest feels like Kaladin or Dalinar chapters. This creates a disconnect.
RoW i caught glimpses of it. But WaT felt the worse. Modern phrasing. Over explaining. Some emotional punches i felt needed polishing. As liftea mentioned, this book felt a lot more noticeable and broke immersion for me.
I hope 10 year gap allows a return to form from Sanderson
Excellent conversation
I wonder if Sanderson has allowed Dan Wells to ghost write chapters or sections for certain characters. Sanderson announced that Dan Wells would become heavily involved in the Cosmere in some capacity. In certain parts, the writing style feels as though it comes straight from a Dan Wells book.
Dan is writing for the TTRPG
I like the discussion on the humor, helped organize my thoughts on why it doesnt land here.
I loved it in the early books- the bridge 4 banter, shallans quirks and interactions with pattern, wits barbs, all very well done. But much of it was self contained and severed to release some tension between other dark and emotional scenes.
Now it seems peppered thouout much more in a way that undercuts many deeper moments. Definitely marvel in tone where we cant sit with anything emotional too long or we might feel something uncomfortable, has to be undercut with a quip of some snark.
I mean if the point of the author is to SELL BOOKS - then shouldn’t he be writing what the people desire….aka WANT?
I would say the book was a 4/5. The PoV switching was a bit much and we are told exactly how the characters feel a lot. I understand he writes a lot of mental health representation (really well I might add) but there was a bit too much on the nose representation this time around. It almost gave the feeling there was a checklist.
I agree with Sophia about the modernizing of the language. I didn't really notice until everyone else pointed out the changes. I listened to the audiobook and Michael and Kate did amazing again.
The one thing that stood out to me was when Wit tells Kaladin he invented therapy. However I assumed that was because I saw a bad description of RoW that was "a man and his fairy invent therapy."
I would rank it 4th out of the 5 books. (2, 1, 4, 3, 5)
Do you mean 5th out of the five books? I see you put a five at the end of the(). Because I agree with your parenthesis ranking!
Well, Wit is perhaps the only character that can use somewhat modern language, like the word "therapist" because of the context that he's a worldhopper, who knows how many worlds he has been to, and in how many therapy was a thing.
Moshe is pronounced MOE-SHEH. It’s Hebrew for Moses.
So my hot take as a listener only, and having finished this book, I will be sure to avoid spoilers. I have definitely felt through all of his books, like noted here. Put it kind of in the front of the book, what the pace is gonna be like, how the characters are gonna feel, and how the world feels. And with Stormlight being the one I feel most deeply rooted in and impacted by. I have felt through this book that it has definitely taken a shift, maybe via language use or character journey, but definitely can feel the change. Mistborn, though much shorter books by comparison, I feel kind of kept their toneality and personality very well. We are shown the world, language, and characters. Then we are taken on an adventure having known the rules and truating he will keep to them. Yet, for WaT, all the way through it felt like peaks and valleys. The rules were established, but now we are seeing how far we can bend them, and it definitely felt off-putting.
At the end of the day, I will always be a Sanderson fan. But I was really hoping to put this higher up on the list of my personal tanking for the series. Yet I can't help but feel this falls pretty low, and for me, it is just because it lost the consistency in tonality it promised from the start. Anyway, thank you for showing us your discussion it was a great listen, and I am always excited to hear as you progress through. It feels like getting to sit on with friends who care as deeply as I do. Keep up the great work!
There’s been a strong overarching drive to modernize across all series in the Cosmere - particularly in SA and Mistborn Era 2 - so I find it funny that people feel like the language modernizing feels so out of place. Like ya, the language is modernizing - just like the technology on Roshar, social conventions/norms on Roshar, etc.
I will also add that I think the total exclusion of male perspective in this conversation really holds it back and makes it unsatisfying. A lot of the complaints in this discussion lack understanding of male relationships and perspectives - which makes it more funny when the occasional reference to an off-screen man’s opinion pops up and his view is different than those being discussed by those on-screen.
Sure, modernizing is a big piece of the Cosmere and Stormlight, somewhat, however language evolves fast sure, but not THAT fast. (WaT literally happens right after RoW, there's no reason to change that much from book to book).
@@octavianmihu7861 On earth, the time period between us using “courting” and “dating” consistently was like 20 - 30 years, but the difference between us going from male-dominant absolute monarchies to women heads of representative states being socially accepted was centuries - yet they occur in the same time span in Stormlight. Similarly, the time span between literal slavery in the West and social acceptance of LGBTQ+ ppl was massive in comparison - yet, we readers for some reason don’t find that nearly as anachronistic on Roshar as a spren using the word “slut.” If anything, the language of Roshar is modernizing much slower that social and cultural norms are, so why is it the language that seems to be the sticking point here?
Maya is wonderful. She has a soldier's potty mouth... What I found jarring and surprising was how quickly her language recovered!
my biggest gripe and maybe the real only one, is the lack of el. Everything with him was amazing then barely any sign of him.
I think the style was much more in line with what we saw in Tress and Yumi, almost YA in some ways. I think the movement of the Cosmere dichotomy is pushing some of this as well. But I felt a real difference in the tone of this book. But my bigger problems were the usage of certain characters like Navani, Shallan, and Renarin. I still have to read the last 25% and hope that resolves the issues.
Hot take: I think Brandon's writing is all in the YA style natively and Wheel of Time and Stormlight is where he tried to break away from that. It just really bled through here at the end
I really think he's not getting the constructive criticism. Everything since Bands of Mourning has suffered from bloat, poor pacing, too much cringe humor, wild tonal shifts, telling instead of showing, and loss of direction. I'm glad that I pushed through WaT so I could have some closure, but my Cosmere journey is over.
I can see all of that. I personally didn't find the humor in the Stormlight Archives cringe, but the second era of Mistborn was almost unreadable by the end exactly because of how cringe the humor got ..
I think the thing is that the things you’re critiquing, which are totally fair imo for what it’s worth, just aren’t really objective things. Like not everyone thinks the books are bloated, or that the pacing poor, etc. Maybe those books “suffered@ from those problems for you, but other people genuinely like those aspects of his stories. I don’t think it’s that he’s just “not getting” the criticism. I think probably he just thinks it’s a matter of taste and writes what he wants.
@mrnemoid Yes, these are things that I (and a lot of other people) are noticing. There has been a sharp decline in quality since Bands of Mourning.
Another thing, I was in my early 20s when I started with Mistborn. I'm 38 now. There's a huge gulf there, and I just can't do YA disguised as adult fantasy anymore.
@@jessi4894 and you think these things are objective? I ask because the point of my comment wasn’t to say that you’re wrong or anything, just that they’re a matter of taste and they seem like things he’s doing on purpose.
I agree. His writing has severely dipped in quality for a while now. I miss the writer he was back in 2008-2013. And I think you’re right that he’s not getting the constructive criticism, or he’s blatantly ignoring it.
He mentioned in a recent video on his channel that he pretty much avoids reading reviews unless they’re positive, and even then, he has his team read them and filter out anything below 3 stars. So not only does he ignore his editors, but he also keeps a constant filter that takes out a lot of constructive feedback. It feels like he’s unintentionally trapped himself in an echo chamber of ‘yes men.’
The devil's in the details. No, really. The details will bury you alive before you're finished writing! The same thing happened to GRRM (and arguably Rothfuss) and I almost consider it the Grim Reaper of authors.
Honestly, the dumb jokes at the end of the world might be due to him consulting military people on his writing. Straight up those dump moments happen all the time. I get the criticism though.
This may not be the same for everybody but this is my experience. Coming from someone who just read Stormlight for the first time this year (twice), so I did not have forever to get my expectations up or to gain nostalgia glasses for this series:
I completely agree that the tone of WaT is a lot less serious than WoK, like the commentators in this video said. BUT (again, this is my opinion), the writing in WaT is just as bad and unfunny and annoying as every other Stormlight book after WoK. I don’t mean that in an overly negative way: I just mean that it’s been like this for a while. I think if people went back and read WoR with an objective pair of eyes, they’d see it’s pretty much the same as WaT in terms of tone - the boots scene, the shart-plate scene, Shallan becoming an absurd caricature of herself. Maybe WaT’s particular sin is the use of modern words, or telling instead of showing, I don’t know. I didn’t notice much of a difference between this and OB or this and RoW.
To me, I think what we’re seeing is a lot of people are just reading Stormlight for the first time in years, with a fresh set of eyes, with expectations being the highest they’ve ever been, and they’re just now noticing that it’s been like this for three books now. Again, I’m not at all a stormlight hater. I wouldn’t have read the series twice this year if I was. I like (maybe not love) WoR through WaT. I just think if people were being objective they’d see the tonal shift and quality drop didn’t happen in book 5 (or even book 4), it happened in book 2, and it’s been this way ever since.
I think the thing that caused issues might be the 10 day structure. I think that was a mistake
Agree with talnELLE. The tone was different in this book - a lot lighter and some very modern language, like “goobering” - which was very jarring. It was his “saidared” moment (from WoT), for me.
For all the nitpicks, I loved this book and this ending.
I'd love to have more examples of this "modern language" than the one word by maya in a half a million word book
"I'm his therapist" is one line... I could definitely go through and find more
"goobering"
To date, data, troubleshooting, ex (girlfriend)
@@thomasraytherapist is not a good example of modern language. Wit taught Kal that word. When Kal uses it, no one knows what he is talking about. He has to explain it.
"I try to imagine myself with Shallan, and I can’t help thinking our individual NEUROSES would feed off one another in dangerous ways."
I don't see why the books should be expected to not have modern language. They are not set in ancient times and are not even on our planet.
The issue is it’s hard to fully remember that, bc of how earthling and blasé it all likely feels.
here’s the way I see it-and my theory. the books shouldn’t have modern language because of the promises of the genre and, more importantly, the tone and setting first established in The Way of Kings.
In WoK, the world was introduced with ancient tech and feudal systems inspired by ancient cultures. Epic fantasy as a genre is rooted in mythology and history, creating a sense of timelessness that readers expect.
If you’ve read other fantasy works, you’ll know that modern language can break immersion and defeat the purpose of escapism-something fantasy is traditionally known for. In urban fantasies like Harry Potter and The Dresden Files, modern language makes sense because they’re set in our world.
But even Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time avoids modern language, despite taking place in the future on Earth. He didn’t use words like ‘awesomeness’ or ‘therapist’. Instead, he maintained a consistent and immersive tone, respecting the genre’s expectations.
Of course, there’s the world-hopper in-world excuse for Stormlight, but that doesn’t make it any less jarring for readers expecting the escapism of epic fantasy. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk
Thanks so much
Worst book in the series
Worst written but not worst book. Row has shaky writing AND way less happened. RoW still the worst for me.
I bounced off is so hard after reading 8 Joe Abercrombie books back to back before WoT. Maybe ill get back to it one day, but I feel like I have out grown Sanderson
@@gnomishviking3013 I mean I don't know you but so that might be right, but I still think Words of Radiance is an amazing book, I don't think Wind and Truth is bad because I've outgrown anything, Wind and Truth is bad because the writing decisions are poor
@@darcy7257 WoK and WoR are still some of my fav books ever.
I enjoyed Wind and Truth (prob 7/10 for me). I thought it was much better than Rhythm of War. That said, I think the quality of the writing is the worst for any Sanderson book since Elantris. It was overly long with a bunch of bloat/fluff. He completely gave up on the concept of subtlety and just beat us over the head with whatever mental health message he wanted to convey. The Shallan/Renarin/Rlain arc did almost nothing to progress the plot and felt shoehorned in just to give those characters something to do and so that Sanderson could ham-fisted include a more prominent gay romance. A lot of the transitions between POV's felt jarring and out of place. The whole thing was just kind of a mess IMO.
Please don’t use your homophobia as an excuse to bash the writing.
The writing was shitty because characters were using random phrases that were never used in prior novels.
Why am I reading about Syl’s chullusy?
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 You seriously want to argue that it was a well done romance that didn't feel shoehorned into the story or that those two characters had anything to contribute to the plot other than the romance? Please, go ahead. I'm all ears.
@ Renarin Has always felt like an outsider and being the Blackthorn’s son has always had a minor role in the books. But starting in Oathbringer / RoW, Odium/Rayse and Taravangian mention the fact that because hes close to Dalinar that the future is warped around him.
They’ve been laying the grounders for two novels now to clearly show that Renarin will have a big role to play in the back half of the series.
Similarly - Rlain has always felt like an outsider within Bridge 4 and if you had bothered to read his scenes you’d know that last novel they alluded to the fact that something went different the first time he tried mateform. Rlain is a singer and when he got his Soren, he also got a title “Bridger of Minds”. So it’s clear he also will play a significant role for interactions between the singers and humans in the future
The two of them getting together seems reasonable to me. As far as plot, you seem to be purposely dense - their role was to find and release Ba-Ado-Mishram and show her that not all humans are bad and that peace can be achieved
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 You're completely missing the point. I don't care if Renarin and Rlain are gay. Sanderson pretty much always includes a gay character or two. Moreover, I don't care if they are going to play a large roll in the 2nd of half of Stormlight. The problem is that Sanderson didn't have a plan for those two characters in THIS book. They spend the entire story following Shallan around as she follows Dalinar and Novani around. They do nothing and have no agency until their final chapter when they release Ba-Ado-Mishram. All they do is sit around and talk/think about how much they like each other. Stormlight isn't a YA romance novel. No one is reading them for that. Moreover, Sanderson is famously bad at writing romance.
The fact is that Sanderson has been criticized for only making side characters gay and he wanted to correct that with Renarin. The problem is that he really didn't have anything for Renarin to do in this book so he just haphazardly shoved him into the Shallan arc and it doesn't fit.
@ no you’re missing the point.
The point is that both Rlain and Renarin are connected to Sjanat due to their Soren.
Sjanat is of course and Unmade and is thinking bout her fellow Unmade “sister”. They had every reason to be part of that plot line. But you do you
Man, I get some of the criticisms, but this feels like we’ve missed the forest for the trees with this book. I’m glad people are honest with their opinions, but I just finished a 65 hour book (audiobook listener) and can we talk about more than just writing style? (I know this isn’t their main book review, but that main review was more of the same). There are so many incredible moments, beautiful moments, tragic moments, etc. I’m fine having an honest discussion about writing style, but can that be 5-10% of the discussion and the actual book be the rest?
With modern lingo gripes i get it. For me the world is almost medieval so i would preferred some older sounding terms like trollup/harlot instead of slut but i get why it was used. Not alot of negative male versions of that word to grab that sound consistent
Some of us liked roshar because it was so unique and totally divorced from anything in our world. Sure there was still stuff people are complaining about with WaT like the modern language and modern mental heath issues as character traits and such, but used sparingly and just enough to help build immersion without totally cracking it.
Last few books brandon seems to be trying to use the language, characters, religion, politics, mental health, and nearly every aspect he can to map it onto our world. Everything seems to have a counterpoint in our world so now everything in roshar has to be an analogy or critique or at the very least be seen simply because it exist here. It lessens it.
Wish he'd have had the courage and confidence to let his world stand on its own. It was beautiful for a time.
I am not a native English speaker and still noticed immediately the difference between this book and the others. The quality dropped significantly if anyone says otherwise just doesn’t listen to the book in hand. Of course the “modern language” is very transparent. But it’s also funny. Why? Branson became a gen z kid or uses too much TikToks? The tell not show is disappointing because not just that but the repetition with it makes it really annoying (handles the reader like children) plus this info dumps are more often appearing in dialogues making them unrealistic. Also all this and the mental health over-explanation added at least 300 pages to the book. Because the mental health is not that good as some people think. The “accessible” is not a good explanation for this.
… Chull… Head?
It’s actually pronounced more like “Moe-shuh/-sheh”
Sanderson stories read like a manhwa, as if narrated by a cheeky narrator who throws their own slang in the middle of it.
WaT has just the worst kind of narrator that just spends half an hour on each manhwa slide going through every feeling.
Love sabdo but this book felt like almost a different author. I'd hate to think that all the extra projects are making WoT water down
I overall really enjoyed the book, but some of the jokes did land flat with me, and usually i'm laughing out loud when I come across them in his other works. It was really only a couple jokes that didn't land out of the dozens that were in there.
This book should have been two books imo.
Goober is his moms nickname so ig it’s kinda a reference for just him
So the boots scene was supposed to be funny... I didn't know that.... 😂
I feel like the criticism that Sanderson is facing with this book is mostly just nitpicky subjective commentary. Brandon has been at the top of the fantasy genre for so long and has been so prolific over the last 5 years that some people are just tired of seeing him due to market saturation, so folks are feeling the need to prove his "mortality" so to speak. I'm not saying all the critiques he's received are invalid but this book is getting WAY too much negative press for the quality of storytelling that is displayed. I think this 3 year gap between cosmere novels is going to be whats best for everyone. It will give the industry time to grow and breathe and when Sanderson comes out with Ghostbloods 1, people will be more open to his writting again.
My point is, Sandersons writing is a great as it's ever been (even better in many regards), but we've gotten 7 large novels in the last 4 years from him and I think the novelty has started to wear off for some people.
Fully agree!
I spent the first half of 2024 reading Prachett and have now spent my summer and fall shot gunning 8 Joe Abercrombie First Law books back to back. I stopped short of the final Abercrombie book to read Wind and Truth.
My god, I have never bounced off a book so hard. I was so spoiled by Abercrombie that I really didnt enjoy Sanderson's writing.
That being said WoK and WoR where some of my fav fantasy books ever when I read them, but every Sanderson book after has been a little less than I hoped for.
That happened to me after reading a Malazan book and the First Law trilogy. Then when I picked up Oathrbringer, it was borderline unreadable to me. I could only audiobook it after that.
I'm pretty sure I've read plenty of classic literature pre-20th century that has italicization for emphasis, but I can definitely see how it wouldn't be to everyone's taste.
OMG - TalnELLR Liftea GETS IT. The writing and TONE has changed from TWOK to WAT.
If you’ve read The Dandelion Dynasty or any other current author you’ll see GREAT WRITING.
Sanderson is a TERRIBLE writer and he’s just getting worse. Sure he’s good at world building but he sucks at all else
He’s just brushing it aside -typical Sanderson arrogance. The book was 2 out of 5 stars.
This isn’t epic fantasy anymore - it’s written like juvenile YA bs
Why does this book have “umm”, “shit”, etc etc
Yeah his strength for a while has been that he's and ideas man and can write like a machine.
There should be a balance somewhere between pumping out content vs taking the time to refine the ideas at the expense of slowing down his output.
It's easier to come to terms with in stuff like the secret project but he could let his main series cook and develop a bit longer.
Well, checking the reviews of that work, I find that only the first volume is good, and the other 3 are "crap"
@@lacramaldita2230 you bring up a good point. I haven’t even read Mistborn but I hear Era 1 was fantastic but Era 2 was meh / mid. Seems to be a common theme with him.
Frankly if he were a great writer or even adequate he’d be able to have his own distinct voice / style that’s prominent in most of his novels. Instead it seems like he goes nuts trying to prove that he’s capable of going from A to B to C depending on the series and it all just becomes a hot mess.
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 A good writer is one who can write good stories and characters, and Sanderson does that. He adds that his worldbuilding and magic systems are excellent. I like that the tone of the work varies between sagas or arcs on different planets. It makes it versatile. I like Era 1 better, but Era 2 has a lot of fans, especially in Latin America and Spain.
@@jasonbrewbaker3932 And don't be mistaken, I was referring to Ken Liu's work where it is said that the first volume is good, and the rest is crap. Courtesy of reddit
TLDR 1330 page book wasn’t depressing enough for some readers. Also some readers didn’t like how Wit is brining more modern day language into the series.
@@williamcampbell5833 maybe you should watch the video before you make a TLDR.
Who said anything about wanting more depressing shit? And there's so much more to the modern language complaint than just Wit
Great discussion/back and forth.
‘This is the story I want to tell’ - so, you hear criticism and then just throw it in the trash. Mature.
What I hate about his humor is how juvenile it is. It makes me question why I read him. If I could remove every bit of juvenile/childish humor from his books, I’d do it right now.
Main reason why it frustrates us is because it takes me out of the story and I just see him cackling at this dumb joke. And becuase of how good I found his writing.
From what I gather from listening here, his writing has worsened in this book, with the constant telling over showing.
Going to reread WOR since I only read jt once, then Oathbringer since it was just once (hopefully I like it more), and then ROW and WAT for the first time. I’m thinking I may be out on Sanderson after this.
One positive is him saying he’ll ’look at’ some of the criticism. To this I say, show change/growth, don’t tell.
He isn’t obligated to listen to or incorporate criticism from readers. It seems like lots of authors don’t. It’s not about pride or immaturity. Authors should write the stories they want to write, and the results will work for some people and not for others. That’s okay. Sure, anyone who’s seriously working on their craft will take constructive feedback to heart, but that may or may not result in the reader’s desired change.
I still say the man needs an editor. And I guess I just look at him often like a grown child, hence the mature comment. I’ll retract that comment, because I tend to agree with you.
@@michaelfeeney6108 you really fucking think he doesnt have an editor lmao
I'm with Sophia
TLDR 1330 page book wasn’t depressing enough for some readers. Also some readers didn’t like how Wit is brining more modern day language into the series.
Thats not what peoples complaints are at all.....
@@gnomishviking3013right way to miss it totally