Nice video! The C64 being powered through HDMI was definitely not intentional (and not a feature :) In my setup, my PCB and 64 are powered down when the 64's switch is off even if my monitor or switch is connected to the HDMI port. Sounds like your TV or switch is back feeding 5V to the PCB. I need to prevent this in the next revision. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. In the meantime, I would avoid powering the 64 via HDMI. You may exceed the current limit of the port.
The MiSTer FPGA system has a similar problem where HDMI will keep parts of it powered when used with some displays. There are HDMI splitters, adapters or cables that can block this voltage.
Same for the first two reversions of the ZX Spectrum Next, that could cause a few situations like memory not 100% cleared after a power cycle. Should be solved with the next 'Nexts' from the second Kickstarter which will have the issue 3 boards where the HDMI back power problem is solved
Its definitely valuable to be designing these chips so that when the supply of real VIC chips runs dry we can keep our old machines going. I am sure that in time it will be possible to make a VIC substitute that is the same size as a 40 pin DIP chip that just plugs in like the PokeyMax chip for Atari computers and video games.
At this rate, someone might as well create a replacement motherboard with the modern replacement chips baked into the design like the SwinSID and other non-MOS chips.
@@JVHShack Wouldn't make that much sense, as all these small replacements just try to replicate functionality that could be put into an FPGA as a whole.
@@dougjohnson4266 I bought an Ultimate 64 Elite at the beginning of the year. It is great, but it isn’t perfect. The emulations is near perfect, but the interface for configuration is not particularly intuitive.
You can solve the back-feeding of 5V from the HDMI monitor by adding a schottky diode in the +5V line, so that the C64 can feed 5V to the HDMI monitor (or the EEPROM in the monitor), but block the 5V coming from the HDMI monitor.
Caught this video nine minutes after it became available and started watching immediately once I realized what it was. Can't wait to see this in production.
Mayhem in Monsterland would be a good stress test of this: it'd be interesting to see what it does with the colour flipping and scrolling tricks used in it.
I've tested it with some of the weirder demos and so far it keeps up with all the graphics tricks. Definitely going to do some live streams testing more stuff sometime soon. :)
This is an important development going forward. Not everything lasts forever and us retro users need to be able to keep our old machines compatible with modern displays. Kudos to Jan and the developers.
Another test that might push the limits is the trick of opening the top and bottom borders as shown in the '8 bit show and tell' episode from a couple of weeks ago. Robin shows all of the code to do it and also a couple of games that make use of the hack. Thanks again Jan Beta!
I’ve tried a couple of demos that use that trick and they work fine. The "emulation" seems to be pretty much perfect, including trickery like that. I have yet to find something that doesn’t work like with an original VIC-II.
That's excellent, thanks for the reply Jan. Parts are somewhat rarer where I am, and shipping - especially from the US - is prohibitive for untested parts. Considering the other benefits of this system, I think it will be a huge success! And thanks to Rossi!
fantastic! I have been following this project for some time and I finally see a test! I hope it will soon be commercialized! I've always heard of your channel and wasn't signed up, but now I'll fix it!
I'm glad that at some point this project will be open source (if it indeed gets finished, which I'm hoping it eventually will). I can't tell you how many other closed source projects I've seen that were created many years ago, but have since disappeared because they were only produced for a short time and then discontinued after sales dried up.
Oh my heck, I would never have imagined that the computer would be powered by the TV! Haha, but this reminds me of your other video: the one where you powered it with a USB brick! Hey, you've gotta tell the makers of this that they should do everything they can to _make_ this an actual feature rather than letting it be a bug!
Clearly an enormous amount of work has been done on this project. It's great to see another replacement for the old ICs. The VIC is quite a hard nut to crack. Brilliant.
I had a similar thing with some really cheap powered USB3 splitter I got off eBay. It would still supply 5V power through the USB when my PC was switched off and unplugged. I got rid of it when I tried to unplug the power adaptor and the plastic housing broke apart, luckily when the power strip was not plugged in.
With this board on the C64 or the Sophia board on the Atari 8 bits I feel like I'm really seeing the graphics on these machines for the first time, 40 years later! Great stuff!
I am surprised at the power-thru-HDMI thing also, and it's concerning because I assume it means the entire C64 is being powered through a couple of protection diodes in the HDMI interface chip.
The odd power though HDMI thingy is causing some slight problems, ok. But it would be such a pity to see it go! It's kind of neat in a way, and it can even come in handy if you don't have a proper supply at hand.
hdmi power could be a feature for when one has a bad power supply (or is missing on a purchase) - so it shouldnt be eliminated but made optional BYW, the world now needs a video on building a C64 from one of those bare motherboards, but using all modern alternatives to the Commodore VIC, SID, etc
Wow, I can't believe this has the high-res enough graphics to do 80-column text! Hey, you should alert Dave Murray to this so he can update The 8-Bit Guy about the quest for 80 columns on the 64/64 mode!
That HDMI power issue seems tricky to me. It wouldn't be the first time dual power releases the magic smoke. I guess the design needs one or more diodes to prevent these loops.
There is a nice hole on the top of your C64 where the hdmi cable can get out 😁 Thanks for the video Jan. Only the 6526 and 6510 to go..(for the big chips) and maybe the PLA for the C64C. I wonder how replacements (for the 6510 and 6526) are going (there are some projects going on!)
Some TV/Monitors support an HDMI protocol called CEC (Consumer Electronic Control). It allows the TV/Monitor to turn the connected device on/off over HDMI (and, I think vise-versa). Perhaps that, when combined with that strange power "feature", you could have your C64 to power on only when you select its input on the monitor? Also - try switching ports on the monitor. It may power down the port. That'd save you clipping a pin.
If the Kawari can somehow monitor the reset line and the power switch, and use that info to block the HDMI 5V to allow reset, it might be a great option to be able to draw power from HDMI instead of a potentially sketchy old C64 power-brick? I think there could possibly be a feature here, rather than a bug with a bit of minor tweaking? Maybe it's hard for the kawari to figure out if the rrset button is being pressed (I assume there's an interrupt?) and to figure out the exact source of +5 so maybe not feasible? I dunno.
There should be a setting so you can turn on jailbars and set how pronounced they are, to fool any connoisseur into thinking it runs on a real VIC-2. What about that white line on the far left of the screen (usually in overscan on CRTs)? (and as someone else said it also needs a few resistors between VCC and GND so it emits as much heat as the original :-P)
That is a great looking project, hopefully the little quirks will get ironed out especially the power problem. The old chips might be dying off but the C64 lives on.👍🏻
Hi Jan, I had a similar issue as you with power being fed through HDMI, although it was actually feedback from a convertor box, that I use like a splitter having both HDMI and composite inputs and HDMI out bypass this box , the power issue disappeared :)
I have the VIC-II² mod and it uses opticouplers to prevent you from switching the chips while the system is on. You might be able to use that to act like a switch to cut the power when the main 5v line isn't turned on. I actually think my NTSC chip is on its last legs. When I play Giana Sisters in Pal it feels way too slow to me. So I tried it in NTSC mode instead. I know it glitches and that's normal. What isn't normal is the entire screen flashing occasionally. And it was still doing it in BASIC as well. If I flip back to PAL the flashing goes away.
So it can replace both the VIC-II as well as the PSU (as long as you have a SwiSID). Pretty cool. Rather than simply cutting off the HDMI power to the board, maybe connecting it to some pins so that if it is a feature that is wanted users could connect it to a switch allowing them to take control as needed. Hopefully the size of the FPGA can be reduced in the final version as the FPGA image gets optimised.
cut open the micro HDMI cable and wire in a monetary switch to the +5v wire as a reset switch while the system is powered down. or a 2 position switch if you want a true off switch. or... maybe a Diode wired inline to the +5v to stop the TV from back feeding 5v?
I presume the solution for ghost powering via "power over hdmi", would be to have an "ideal diode" mosfet only allowing power into the 5V line, but not out of it? but that would complicate things and require a pcb revision I guess. EDIT: Thinking further about it, unless there's some reason why it's necessary, a much simpler solution would be to cut the trace connecting to the 5V pin (pin 18) of the micro-hdmi connector. No trace, no ghost power. [Yes, I wrote the comment before finishing the video. I have more opinions than patience]
@@Kboyer36 If they discovered more issues, yeah, I guess. But making new board revisions is always a pain in the butt, cos then you have to either order them and wait, or etch/mill them yourself. As opposite to being able to update the FPGA firmware to fix issues.
If I remember correctly hdmi out should deliver 5v to the cable but not backfield. So maybe a diode can be added too prevent backfeeeding not the Kavari Vic ii.
If power is coming from the HDMI, isn't it bad for the 64's 7805 regulator? When the 64 is powered with its supply its 7805 regulator will try and regulate an externally related voltage and potentially conflict.
Exciting stuff. Been following the progress of this for a while. This does need a sensible way to get the hdmi out of the case though. This needs a breakout board to replace the RF modulator, with an hdmi in socket to get signal from Kawari and hdmi out socket at existing hole for RF plug (to avoid drilling holes in case). Incorporate an ADC to tap into and convert analogue audio on existing circuit (formerly used by the rf modulator) and feed that into hdmi out to negate need to use the av jack for audio . Must be possible surely?
The Pi1541 works with Kawari. It's the IEC bus display feature that can cause problems with timing in some demo loaders with a real VIC-II as well. As long as you turn that feature off, it works fine.
13:00 - "strange quirk"? Limited power distribution is part of the HDMI spec - comparable to USB, although not always implemented. Your TV seems to have a spare pair of LIPS to wake up little "Snowwhite" ALDI-C64. The short board obviously has low enough power consumption to be powered by it. What I found really intriguing is, that both the relatively large FPGA and the flash module also had enough power to run. I suspect their consumption to be very low too when they are only reading flash memory.
Am I to assume when it was still in the alpha test phase they sent it to Jan Alpha? And when the last bugs are ironed out they'll send it to Jan Release Candidate?
Hmm. I fixed lots of C64s (definitely more than ten...) and I only had one failed VIC-II chip. The #1 cause of failures is still the PLA. Edit: I'm not saying I'm against this project! I think it's a great idea, it allows to be able to use C64s indefinitely.
It can allow original C64 upgrade to use of Modern HDTV as displays or current Computer monitors with excellent resolution the original video system was not designed to handle. I was burning new PLA using FPGA Chips in 1985! Thy used a standard pin configuration, which makes me suspect the original engineering prototypes probably used FPGA to map out the address to Chip Selects matrix then for production, the guys at MoS copied the logic table and made their crappy version of the hardwired, non programmable PLA because they could make them cheaper to stay in budget.
I know ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH (Very, VERY little, rather) about these things. knowing that aftermarket parts are widely becoming available now, it's making it easier for people to access these machines!
The first batch of ZX Spectrum Nexts has a similar issue of being back-powered through the HDMI, it's actually really annoying! An easy fix is to connect it to the display through an HDMI switcher, I would guess the same would work for this.
I´m following the product since the beginning and now it seems to be close to production. My SixtyClone 250466-Board ist badly awaiting the released product! :-) If you´re looking at the scene you can see that public domain hardware works out well, see the PiStorm Adapter 68K-CPU-Replacement for (in the future nearly all) Amigas. I hope the developer will get more than just fame out ouf it if he makes the project open source. By the way: I think its right that products like the Turbo Chameleon 64 V2 or the Ultimate 64 are good replacements for the C64 as a whole with lots of new features (not to mention the BMC64, the KeyRah a.s.o.), but: Nothing's above soldering together your own Cevy, equip it with original or replacement parts, put the power cord in and get a well known beloved blue screen at first switch. :-) Nerd´s Victory! Last but definetly not least: Again a great video, Jan! :-)
Like others said.... expensive is relative. As the thing is both the ntsc and pal version... and switchable... you could compare it to purchasing 2 * vicII + vicII² + separate hdmi mod. And then you are still not factoring in the additional capabilities
Found it very strange that HDMI provided enough power on the 5v, it should provide only about 50ma .. there is another standard MHL, which can provide a decent amount of ampere, so if the screen has a MHL/HDMI port it likely can stop it by changing it to another non MHL port. Still powering a C64 from the TV is likely not a good idea in the long run, cool bug/feature though.
Anyone else having issues with U14 and U15 get very hot on the large board? I purchased one of the last Kawaris before they got out of stock. A rev. 1.2 with Trion FPGA. While it works fine (except with SRAM, i need to figure a way to firmware update it) two ICs run very hot. I guess they're voltage regulators. The older revisions of the board has nice large regulators (or transistors) but these are almost pinhead sized - and running IMHO way too hot. I can't measure such small points but my IR thermometer says about 55 C (feels hotter).
I’m thinking whether the same thing could be achieved with the Raspberry Pi? Randy has already made a bare metal implementation of the whole C64 on Pi, so that might provide the needed codebase. An adapter board with a GPIO header would be needed. With RPis costing next to nothing, it might be a cost-effective alternative.
Hey Jan, thanks for the video! I am mostly interested in recording that hdmi signal. What kind of capture card do you use for your hdmi capture? Are you using any scaler or does a "normal" capture card handle the weird C64 hdmi signal alright?
I want a Vic 2 board that has Sid or at least analog audio in to combine with the video of the HDMI out and will work in SX 64, so I can connect it to a HDTV and HDMI Surround sound system.
per the HDMI power issue, I've noticed the same thing on my raspberry PI's, every so often when I try to shut it down or reboot it stays powered via the HDMI port even with the power unplugged
Would modification of the hdmi cable be easier? Just open up the cable and cut the 5v to pin 18, that should work. You can use a pin to pierce the insulation to find the right wire. Thanks JB, great video!
It's not suggested as a fix for the design, it was suggested to allow JB to more easily continue Beta testing without having to continually disconnect the hdmi. 🙃
Horses for courses, if I was doing the testing, I'd modify the cable. I'm not damaging the device and for 10 minutes (easy) work, I'm saving myself a buttload of dicking around. But that's me, I'm lazy and look for the easy solution!
You do you champ, although there's no reason to think that the 5v line will be off in sleep mode. I suppose JB could unplug the TV from the wall each time. What a time saver!
*using my best Dr Smith voice* Oh the pain, the pain! Please stop with the snappy comebacks every 36 hours, the burns are unbearable 😫 I'm quite fragile you know ;-)
I wonder at what point it'd make more sense to pull all ICs from the board and just have an FPGA in the CPU socket emulate every chip instead. The Spartan FPGA should have enough gates to emulate the whole computer three times over.
Nice video! The C64 being powered through HDMI was definitely not intentional (and not a feature :) In my setup, my PCB and 64 are powered down when the 64's switch is off even if my monitor or switch is connected to the HDMI port. Sounds like your TV or switch is back feeding 5V to the PCB. I need to prevent this in the next revision. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. In the meantime, I would avoid powering the 64 via HDMI. You may exceed the current limit of the port.
Amazing work
The MiSTer FPGA system has a similar problem where HDMI will keep parts of it powered when used with some displays. There are HDMI splitters, adapters or cables that can block this voltage.
Same for the first two reversions of the ZX Spectrum Next, that could cause a few situations like memory not 100% cleared after a power cycle.
Should be solved with the next 'Nexts' from the second Kickstarter which will have the issue 3 boards where the HDMI back power problem is solved
Yeah, was going to say, that's probably not healthy ;)
Its definitely valuable to be designing these chips so that when the supply of real VIC chips runs dry we can keep our old machines going. I am sure that in time it will be possible to make a VIC substitute that is the same size as a 40 pin DIP chip that just plugs in like the PokeyMax chip for Atari computers and video games.
We're coming closer and closer to not needing to buy original MOS chips anymore, hooray!
At this rate, someone might as well create a replacement motherboard with the modern replacement chips baked into the design like the SwinSID and other non-MOS chips.
Thats the ultimate goal i think
Ultimate 64 Elite and the Mega 65 are 100% FPGA. On the U64E there are two physical SID ZIF sockets.
@@JVHShack Wouldn't make that much sense, as all these small replacements just try to replicate functionality that could be put into an FPGA as a whole.
@@dougjohnson4266 I bought an Ultimate 64 Elite at the beginning of the year. It is great, but it isn’t perfect. The emulations is near perfect, but the interface for configuration is not particularly intuitive.
You can solve the back-feeding of 5V from the HDMI monitor by adding a schottky diode in the +5V line, so that the C64 can feed 5V to the HDMI monitor (or the EEPROM in the monitor), but block the 5V coming from the HDMI monitor.
Caught this video nine minutes after it became available and started watching immediately once I realized what it was. Can't wait to see this in production.
Mayhem in Monsterland would be a good stress test of this: it'd be interesting to see what it does with the colour flipping and scrolling tricks used in it.
I've tested it with some of the weirder demos and so far it keeps up with all the graphics tricks. Definitely going to do some live streams testing more stuff sometime soon. :)
This is an important development going forward. Not everything lasts forever and us retro users need to be able to keep our old machines compatible with modern displays. Kudos to Jan and the developers.
Another test that might push the limits is the trick of opening the top and bottom borders as shown in the '8 bit show and tell' episode from a couple of weeks ago. Robin shows all of the code to do it and also a couple of games that make use of the hack. Thanks again Jan Beta!
I’ve tried a couple of demos that use that trick and they work fine. The "emulation" seems to be pretty much perfect, including trickery like that. I have yet to find something that doesn’t work like with an original VIC-II.
That's excellent, thanks for the reply Jan. Parts are somewhat rarer where I am, and shipping - especially from the US - is prohibitive for untested parts. Considering the other benefits of this system, I think it will be a huge success! And thanks to Rossi!
I cant wait to be able to buy at some point. I really want one in my ATX64 build. Waiting for FPGA CIA's as well.
A Commadore 64 in an ATX form factor? How did you do that?
@@megan_alnico Buy the parts and solder. 🙂
sounds like sort of a Sophie-Wilson-Moment: "Oh hang on, it's powered by the chips around it!"
Can't wait for this to be available and thanks for testing it Jan.
fantastic! I have been following this project for some time and I finally see a test! I hope it will soon be commercialized!
I've always heard of your channel and wasn't signed up, but now I'll fix it!
"Beta Testing the VIC-II Kawari C64 Graphics Chip Replacement"
I see what you did there! 😁👍
Excellent video, as always. Very interesting piece of hardware, kudos to Mr. Rossi!
love the fact that the 9V ~ is no longer required with this board! Helps to get rid of the old nasty power supplies too!
I'm glad that at some point this project will be open source (if it indeed gets finished, which I'm hoping it eventually will). I can't tell you how many other closed source projects I've seen that were created many years ago, but have since disappeared because they were only produced for a short time and then discontinued after sales dried up.
Oh my heck, I would never have imagined that the computer would be powered by the TV! Haha, but this reminds me of your other video: the one where you powered it with a USB brick! Hey, you've gotta tell the makers of this that they should do everything they can to _make_ this an actual feature rather than letting it be a bug!
Maybe an option with a jumper, one that allows it, and another with a diode to block the unintentionally power just in case
Very pleased this project is getting the exposure it deserves! Thanks Jan for posting.
Yeay, jailbars are history...👏
Clearly an enormous amount of work has been done on this project. It's great to see another replacement for the old ICs. The VIC is quite a hard nut to crack. Brilliant.
Jan,da quello che si è visto nel video,il VIC II kawari funziona decisamente bene,ottimo.
11:18 Now I know how they got the unpowered C64s working on the old magazine covers 😄 (they just needed power-over-composite or power-over-rf/hf)
I had a similar thing with some really cheap powered USB3 splitter I got off eBay. It would still supply 5V power through the USB when my PC was switched off and unplugged. I got rid of it when I tried to unplug the power adaptor and the plastic housing broke apart, luckily when the power strip was not plugged in.
With this board on the C64 or the Sophia board on the Atari 8 bits I feel like I'm really seeing the graphics on these machines for the first time, 40 years later! Great stuff!
I am surprised at the power-thru-HDMI thing also, and it's concerning because I assume it means the entire C64 is being powered through a couple of protection diodes in the HDMI interface chip.
The creator commented somewhere here and stated that it's not intentional and will be fixed in the next revision
The odd power though HDMI thingy is causing some slight problems, ok. But it would be such a pity to see it go! It's kind of neat in a way, and it can even come in handy if you don't have a proper supply at hand.
Thankyou Jan Beta. This is great to see, to keep my C64 alive forever. That rogue power from the HDMI was spooky.
hdmi power could be a feature for when one has a bad power supply (or is missing on a purchase) - so it shouldnt be eliminated but made optional
BYW, the world now needs a video on building a C64 from one of those bare motherboards, but using all modern alternatives to the Commodore VIC, SID, etc
Wow, I can't believe this has the high-res enough graphics to do 80-column text! Hey, you should alert Dave Murray to this so he can update The 8-Bit Guy about the quest for 80 columns on the 64/64 mode!
Fox Fights back... what an original choice for a game to test the VIC-II 👌
This is an improvement, that is good. I could not find the selling price of this.
That HDMI power issue seems tricky to me. It wouldn't be the first time dual power releases the magic smoke. I guess the design needs one or more diodes to prevent these loops.
There is a nice hole on the top of your C64 where the hdmi cable can get out 😁 Thanks for the video Jan. Only the 6526 and 6510 to go..(for the big chips) and maybe the PLA for the C64C. I wonder how replacements (for the 6510 and 6526) are going (there are some projects going on!)
You are lucky to be the few to test this awesome device.... I envy you Jan Beta! :-)
Wouldn't this actually be a Jan Beta Test?
I think you mean a Jan Beta Beta Test ;-)
Some TV/Monitors support an HDMI protocol called CEC (Consumer Electronic Control). It allows the TV/Monitor to turn the connected device on/off over HDMI (and, I think vise-versa). Perhaps that, when combined with that strange power "feature", you could have your C64 to power on only when you select its input on the monitor?
Also - try switching ports on the monitor. It may power down the port. That'd save you clipping a pin.
If the Kawari can somehow monitor the reset line and the power switch, and use that info to block the HDMI 5V to allow reset, it might be a great option to be able to draw power from HDMI instead of a potentially sketchy old C64 power-brick?
I think there could possibly be a feature here, rather than a bug with a bit of minor tweaking? Maybe it's hard for the kawari to figure out if the rrset button is being pressed (I assume there's an interrupt?) and to figure out the exact source of +5 so maybe not feasible? I dunno.
There should be a setting so you can turn on jailbars and set how pronounced they are, to fool any connoisseur into thinking it runs on a real VIC-2.
What about that white line on the far left of the screen (usually in overscan on CRTs)?
(and as someone else said it also needs a few resistors between VCC and GND so it emits as much heat as the original :-P)
I would gladly buy one with and one without HDMI. I hope Randy earns enough money to make this OSS in a near future.
That is a great looking project, hopefully the little quirks will get ironed out especially the power problem. The old chips might be dying off but the C64 lives on.👍🏻
Hi Jan, I had a similar issue as you with power being fed through HDMI, although it was actually feedback from a convertor box, that I use like a splitter having both HDMI and composite inputs and HDMI out bypass this box , the power issue disappeared :)
I have the VIC-II² mod and it uses opticouplers to prevent you from switching the chips while the system is on. You might be able to use that to act like a switch to cut the power when the main 5v line isn't turned on. I actually think my NTSC chip is on its last legs. When I play Giana Sisters in Pal it feels way too slow to me. So I tried it in NTSC mode instead. I know it glitches and that's normal. What isn't normal is the entire screen flashing occasionally. And it was still doing it in BASIC as well. If I flip back to PAL the flashing goes away.
i hope one day see teh same for the vic-20
So it can replace both the VIC-II as well as the PSU (as long as you have a SwiSID). Pretty cool. Rather than simply cutting off the HDMI power to the board, maybe connecting it to some pins so that if it is a feature that is wanted users could connect it to a switch allowing them to take control as needed. Hopefully the size of the FPGA can be reduced in the final version as the FPGA image gets optimised.
Haha, "blue screen of LIFE," nice!
cut open the micro HDMI cable and wire in a monetary switch to the +5v wire as a reset switch while the system is powered down. or a 2 position switch if you want a true off switch. or... maybe a Diode wired inline to the +5v to stop the TV from back feeding 5v?
And now we only miss the 6510, literally. I hope an FPGA cpu alternative comes soon!
The FPGA alone is a $45 part so yeah this is going to be quite expensive in the end. And they are back-ordered for a whole year!
When the Jan Beta testing is done 😋
I presume the solution for ghost powering via "power over hdmi", would be to have an "ideal diode" mosfet only allowing power into the 5V line, but not out of it? but that would complicate things and require a pcb revision I guess.
EDIT: Thinking further about it, unless there's some reason why it's necessary, a much simpler solution would be to cut the trace connecting to the 5V pin (pin 18) of the micro-hdmi connector. No trace, no ghost power.
[Yes, I wrote the comment before finishing the video. I have more opinions than patience]
This is just a beta version so I am sure a PCB revision is expected.
@@Kboyer36 If they discovered more issues, yeah, I guess. But making new board revisions is always a pain in the butt, cos then you have to either order them and wait, or etch/mill them yourself. As opposite to being able to update the FPGA firmware to fix issues.
If I remember correctly hdmi out should deliver 5v to the cable but not backfield. So maybe a diode can be added too prevent backfeeeding not the Kavari Vic ii.
If power is coming from the HDMI, isn't it bad for the 64's 7805 regulator? When the 64 is powered with its supply its 7805 regulator will try and regulate an externally related voltage and potentially conflict.
Exciting stuff. Been following the progress of this for a while. This does need a sensible way to get the hdmi out of the case though. This needs a breakout board to replace the RF modulator, with an hdmi in socket to get signal from Kawari and hdmi out socket at existing hole for RF plug (to avoid drilling holes in case). Incorporate an ADC to tap into and convert analogue audio on existing circuit (formerly used by the rf modulator) and feed that into hdmi out to negate need to use the av jack for audio . Must be possible surely?
Wow this is super cool!
Bummer about the Pi1541 issues. The Pi1541 is my favourite add-on. Is it something they’re looking into?
The Pi1541 works with Kawari. It's the IEC bus display feature that can cause problems with timing in some demo loaders with a real VIC-II as well. As long as you turn that feature off, it works fine.
10:50 From my days in tech sales, "That's a feature, not a bug. That's a feature not a bug. ..." 🐜🙉
LOL, 145 years without a lost time accident :)
you rock ! Enjoyed this
Cant wait to buy one ! its the saint graals of the C64 long life ! Thanks To Mr Rossi!
This must be a great addition for those who replace the SX64 CRT with a TFT.
A 5” HDMI 1080i or P LCD Screen in the SX 64 would severely lighten up the Chassis!
@@DishNetworkDealerNEO Plus, the picture will be sharp as hell.
As long as you mail me the leftover CRTs you won't be needing anymore. Just make sure they're triple boxed so they arrive in one piece!
13:00 - "strange quirk"? Limited power distribution is part of the HDMI spec - comparable to USB, although not always implemented.
Your TV seems to have a spare pair of LIPS to wake up little "Snowwhite" ALDI-C64. The short board obviously has low enough power consumption to be powered by it. What I found really intriguing is, that both the relatively large FPGA and the flash module also had enough power to run. I suspect their consumption to be very low too when they are only reading flash memory.
*not always implemented correctly.
Note to self: Read before posting!
Am I to assume when it was still in the alpha test phase they sent it to Jan Alpha? And when the last bugs are ironed out they'll send it to Jan Release Candidate?
Gold master. ;P
Could be an issue with the Kawari powering the entire machine if the max current from the particular HDMI connection is exceeded?
The thing this replacement should have as well is allowing games which need PAL timing to run on NTSC output and vice versa.
Hmm. I fixed lots of C64s (definitely more than ten...) and I only had one failed VIC-II chip. The #1 cause of failures is still the PLA.
Edit: I'm not saying I'm against this project! I think it's a great idea, it allows to be able to use C64s indefinitely.
It can allow original C64 upgrade to use of Modern HDTV as displays or current Computer monitors with excellent resolution the original video system was not designed to handle. I was burning new PLA using FPGA Chips in 1985! Thy used a standard pin configuration, which makes me suspect the original engineering prototypes probably used FPGA to map out the address to Chip Selects matrix then for production, the guys at MoS copied the logic table and made their crappy version of the hardwired, non programmable PLA because they could make them cheaper to stay in budget.
I know ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH (Very, VERY little, rather) about these things. knowing that aftermarket parts are widely becoming available now, it's making it easier for people to access these machines!
The first batch of ZX Spectrum Nexts has a similar issue of being back-powered through the HDMI, it's actually really annoying! An easy fix is to connect it to the display through an HDMI switcher, I would guess the same would work for this.
I´m following the product since the beginning and now it seems to be close to production. My SixtyClone 250466-Board ist badly awaiting the released product! :-)
If you´re looking at the scene you can see that public domain hardware works out well, see the PiStorm Adapter 68K-CPU-Replacement for (in the future nearly all) Amigas.
I hope the developer will get more than just fame out ouf it if he makes the project open source.
By the way: I think its right that products like the Turbo Chameleon 64 V2 or the Ultimate 64 are good replacements for the C64 as a whole with lots of new features (not to mention the BMC64, the KeyRah a.s.o.), but:
Nothing's above soldering together your own Cevy, equip it with original or replacement parts, put the power cord in and get a well known beloved blue screen at first switch. :-) Nerd´s Victory!
Last but definetly not least: Again a great video, Jan! :-)
Like others said.... expensive is relative. As the thing is both the ntsc and pal version... and switchable... you could compare it to purchasing 2 * vicII + vicII² + separate hdmi mod. And then you are still not factoring in the additional capabilities
Lovely!
The first edition of the ZX Spectrum Next has the same backpower hdmi issue.
Brilliant
Found it very strange that HDMI provided enough power on the 5v, it should provide only about 50ma .. there is another standard MHL, which can provide a decent amount of ampere, so if the screen has a MHL/HDMI port it likely can stop it by changing it to another non MHL port.
Still powering a C64 from the TV is likely not a good idea in the long run, cool bug/feature though.
Anyone else having issues with U14 and U15 get very hot on the large board?
I purchased one of the last Kawaris before they got out of stock. A rev. 1.2 with Trion FPGA. While it works fine (except with SRAM, i need to figure a way to firmware update it) two ICs run very hot. I guess they're voltage regulators. The older revisions of the board has nice large regulators (or transistors) but these are almost pinhead sized - and running IMHO way too hot. I can't measure such small points but my IR thermometer says about 55 C (feels hotter).
Awesome stuff Jan
If it had stayed on when you unplugged the HDMI cable, there's only one thing left to do: call a priest and set up an exorcism!
👍
I’m thinking whether the same thing could be achieved with the Raspberry Pi? Randy has already made a bare metal implementation of the whole C64 on Pi, so that might provide the needed codebase. An adapter board with a GPIO header would be needed. With RPis costing next to nothing, it might be a cost-effective alternative.
The problem there would be vertical height. An adapter plus a Pi will likely not fit inside.
This thing is Amazing!
Disconnect the 5 volt line from the HDMI and insert a diode. Maybe in the cable?
Hey Jan, thanks for the video! I am mostly interested in recording that hdmi signal. What kind of capture card do you use for your hdmi capture? Are you using any scaler or does a "normal" capture card handle the weird C64 hdmi signal alright?
I use an Elgato HD 60S and it handles the signal well. Your mileage may vary with other capture cards though, of course.
@@JanBeta Oh, thats awesome. Got an Elgato HD 60S+, which hopefully does the Job es well then. Thanks for the Info!
The Kawari turns the C 64 into a zombie, cool, I want one!
Jan Beta Testing
I want a Vic 2 board that has Sid or at least analog audio in to combine with the video of the HDMI out and will work in SX 64, so I can connect it to a HDTV and HDMI Surround sound system.
Well Done chipdesigner! 😀
This is amazing!
"These short boards work without any 9VAC supply at all..."*** Well, except for the SID and the user port and the tape port, and... and... and... :-P
per the HDMI power issue, I've noticed the same thing on my raspberry PI's, every so often when I try to shut it down or reboot it stays powered via the HDMI port even with the power unplugged
Your issue is often called back powering.
If you cut that trace I assume no issue since c64 will not use the i²C on HDMI
OK, once this is out, are there any more chips to be replicated for the C64? If not, time to get on to the customer chips for the C128.
Jan, what if you plug hdmi directly into monitor, not through your device under your monitor?
How is the sprite collision detection? And what happens to the sprites in the 80 column mode?
2:59 I don't think that micro HDMI header _implements_ anything (other than a contact/connector).
Hehe, I just checked and the latest version of Novaterm I have is 9.4
Maybe I should upgrade. :-)
Maybe you could cut the wire that carries the +5V in an HDMI cable and test that way?
Should only be using HDMI power for reference. 😎
Else use socket-side power to switch power and to reset. One more little MOSFET?
might be good for commander x16
Would modification of the hdmi cable be easier? Just open up the cable and cut the 5v to pin 18, that should work. You can use a pin to pierce the insulation to find the right wire. Thanks JB, great video!
It's not suggested as a fix for the design, it was suggested to allow JB to more easily continue Beta testing without having to continually disconnect the hdmi. 🙃
Horses for courses, if I was doing the testing, I'd modify the cable. I'm not damaging the device and for 10 minutes (easy) work, I'm saving myself a buttload of dicking around. But that's me, I'm lazy and look for the easy solution!
You do you champ, although there's no reason to think that the 5v line will be off in sleep mode. I suppose JB could unplug the TV from the wall each time. What a time saver!
Call the hospital, I need a burns unit! 🔥
*using my best Dr Smith voice* Oh the pain, the pain! Please stop with the snappy comebacks every 36 hours, the burns are unbearable 😫 I'm quite fragile you know ;-)
What is the significance of 53,281 days? That's nearly 146 years! Been puzzling me for the last few videos.
POKE53281,x changes the background color in C64 BASIC. Kind of an insider joke. ;)
@@JanBeta Ah that's great, thanks for explaining! I got stuck trying to find an event of significance in the past!
I wonder at what point it'd make more sense to pull all ICs from the board and just have an FPGA in the CPU socket emulate every chip instead. The Spartan FPGA should have enough gates to emulate the whole computer three times over.
See the "Ultimate 64" for that.