Leather shield armour - Part 2
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- Firstly - apologies. It appears I am a liar!
I made a 14th/15thC proper planked poplar heater shield and covered it with an original recipe leather/iron/glass armour system and then promised I would come back and shoot it next time. I thought of a few more things, wanted to change it and so had to come back for a second time with no shooting; hence I am a liar. However I did add a section of covering without the iron/glass layer for comparison and I did make a section of 'black gambeson' (maybe), for further tests.
Next time there will be shooting - I promise.
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Leather shield armour pt1 • Making leather shield ...
If you want to know absolutely everything about the Arrows vs Armour series of films, you will find that information here todtodeschini.com
Doublet of Defense sounds like a D&D magic item
I'm wondering if the 'doublet' part of a shield covering isn't the same thing we do when we add a 'jacket' to a bullet, or 'coat' a wall with something.
No it's a Harry potter book.
@@benholroyd5221Harry Potter and the Doublet of Defense. 😂
I think Lonely wolf may have it. Imagine this was first written down and the word coat/cote was used as in 'coating', an applied layer. A later generation reads 'cote' and thinks jacket (modern English) and writes down the next copy using the more modern (to them doublet). IOr something like that
There's a spell in Ars Magica called "Doublet of Impenetrable Silk"
The mixture of oak tannins with hide glue should also make the glue water-resistant when it dries up because such glue won't rehydrate as easily as pure hide glue. The tannins react with the collagen in the glue and they cross-link it so it becomes insoluble.
Is that so? Curious
Just like iron gall ink is waterproof. This is an unexpected crossover.
@@greghenrikson952 Iron gall ink oxidizes after being laid down on the parchment or paper. But if it reacts to the hide immediately that would add early water resistance.
Ok, I'm going to have to play around with that and do some testing. I have lots of hide glue, acorn shells, oak bark, oak galls, and an oak based tanning solution I made that currently has my first attempt at home tanned leather soaking in it. If it can make the hide glue more water resistant that will be awesome for the flint knapped blades and projectile points I make.
Not directly related, but useful to know .... the addition of glycerine acts as a plasticiser for hide glue, which can be extremely brittle when fully dried. Also works with PVA glues. [I use it building concertina bellows]
brilliant, loving the experiments with tannins, glues etc. It all makes logical sense, and all fairly available in the technology of the time.
I was always a Middle Ages-obsessed kid, and had I found your channel back then I would have learned to speak English 10 years earlier! Absolutely love your videos!
This is such an exciting series Tod! Thanks so much for taking us the whole way through the process. I have been inspired by you to always try and show my methodology whenever I am doing things like testing swords in my videos and I think that everyone is the better for the transparency in this type of experimental archeology.
Thanks and it is an interesting aspect. Of course things could be faked, but if you are honest and transparent people can see what is going on and and when I inevitably make mistakes people can pull me up on it publicly because they can show where the mistakes are and then we can all just keep on thinking, talking and learning. I try to show as much as I can with out being boring (or at least I try)
@@tods_workshop no no, it’s brilliant. I always say, I do things with all the scientific validity of a lad who spent the afternoon drinking rootbeer and watching mythbusters, but the process is as important as the results, especially for theses niche areas of study where I hope others will follow and use/improve on techniques featured. Keep it up dude.
I turned on my living room lights and ceiling fan. When Todd said everything I did everything. (too literal?) I hope that helps. LOL
It's always amazing to see what a craftsman good at his craft can do in crafting when he puts himself into improving his craft, always, all the time.
Crafty.
@@benholroyd5221 Beat me to it!
if the black gambeson idea expressed here worked, it would have potential for a mold based relatively mass production style. Layer up a bunch of linen scraps of various length, impregnate with the glue concoction, and press between a mold. Once the mold is made it would be much faster and require less expertise than custom tailoring (assuming it actually works well).
Interesting. I would assume they would have made that leap and yet I have not seen anything like that, which perhaps gives the inverse in that it is a good indicator they didn't do this. Hmmmmm
@@tods_workshop While a linen shirt is somewhat forgiving, and perhaps even a gambeson, once it is made hard by the glue I would think tailoring would become important to be practical. Try putting on a plastic injection moulded mass produced armour and see how much you feel like fighting in it (thinking just of the mass produced fit, not the protection / weight). Of course this is less of a concern with a shield, but then the wooden shield itself is the mould.
Getting the mold to not stick to the pressed piece is another challenge. Taking a clue from similar modern processes, a proper wax coating on a near polished surface. Or use facing layers impervious to the glue.
No good vacuum pump in the medieval period for vacuum bagging. But piling sand should produce a similar effect of distributed pressure.
What I've seen of modern ballistic armor, adhesion between fabric layers makes a difference.
I'm not an expert on it by any means, but I thought I heard that linothorax did have to be custom-made to the person. One might could wear one belonging to someone else of similar build, like a son wearing one that had once been his father's, but you're not going to be able to mass-produce them in advance.
@@antaguana to me the main question would be how hard it gets. I made a linothorax a few years ago, and as it warmed up to your body it kind of (in a limited way) molded itself to your shape as you wore it. The glue softened and weakened a bit in the areas regularly subjected to flexing, kind of like new leather getting worn in.
I'm not saying I think it was done, no evidence for it, just curious to think of it could have worked.
Another material used in composite armour for eons was horse hoof. Made soft. like plastic, by heating it can be cut, shaped, thached and such, becoming strong again when cooled.
Or horn! Cow horn utensils were a common thing, far as I understand!
I suspect there are a number of separate chemical processes going on here.
Iron and vinegar together form ferric and ferrous acetates, which further react with tannic acid to form iron-tannin complexes which change the colour of the wood, or in this instance leather. I do not know whether these tannin complexes include Ferric Tannate,
Iron oxides definitely react with tannic acid to form ferric tannate. This compound is a solid, stable, black substance which resists further oxidation on an iron substrate, and can be used to fix rust, particularly useful in converting and fixing rust in present in pitting and micro cracking. It does not exhibit the exfoliation tendencies of red rust and is not hygroscopic. The tannate is however, a relatively porous material and freely soaks up thin oils for maximum rust protection. I have used this for years in conserving old iron tools.
I think it quite possible that any tannates formed within the fibres of the leather, might well soak up [and perhaps bond with?] the hide glue in a similar way thus contributing to overall material strength.
If my guess about the ferric tannate involvement is correct, in the method you are using, by far the greatest proportion of the iron would be coming from the iron filings stipulated in the recipe, rather than the small amount added in the vinegar/iron mix you added. It may well be that powdered rust might be a better bet than Iron filings, indeed in historical times, such filings may well have contained a high proportion of rust. Given that the leather and glue is a wet gloopy mess, any clean filings might convert to rust [and hence tannates], during the long drying period
If memory serves, The optimal conditions for the formation of tannates from rust and tannic acid occur at a pH of between 2 and 3. The amount of vinegar added to your large vat is unlikely to have much effect on the overall pH of the glue. Again the low pH [acidity] required is likely to come from the tannic acid leaching out from within the leather, since hide glues are fairly neutral, perhaps with a tendency to slightly acidic.
Be interesting to try some small test pieces to examine the 'sandwich' union between the two pieces of leather, made with glass/filings and glass/rust. Maybe test pH ?
I imagine other folks here could give better insights on possible reactions as my studies in chemistry are over half a century out of date.
Keep up the good work Todd .... OG
Love that you wrote the chemistry and use out. I have used vinegar to clean off rust and such nonesense off of iron, and frankly prefer using it over ferric chloride and such things when etching patternwelded steel, but it never occurred to me to add the tannins! Cheers, and thank you! :)
I really struggle to express how much I appreciate being able to watch things like this, its all just so interesting.
"Mum! Dad's doing something weird to the BBQ again!"
They are so past the 'dads doing something weird' stage
Man, I'd love to have a conversation with this man. Total history geek (huge compliment), who leaves no stone unturned.
Black Gambeson ! Yay !! Earlier than 15th century, the King's Mirror (Norway 13th century) recommends to wear "thoroughly blackened" gambeson underneath and on top of the mail armour!
Appreciate the detailed explanations Tod. This type of experimental archaeology is absolutely fascinating. Also, your thoroughness and methodology is very impressive.
Thanks - its all pointless if I am not thorough and you lot don't come along for the journey. What I really dislike about TV docs is they have two facts and immediately move on to a 'therefore'...... I do try to avoid that
This is not experimental archaeology. As far as I know no archaologists are involved and Tod is not even going by his own source let alone others. It's an experiment, it's interesting, but it has little relevance when it comes to sciences.
@@caranorn Your university accreditations aren't a prerequisite for doing science. You yourself called them experiments, which is what science does. He is using known sources and attempting to reproduce the outcomes they describe with materials known to be available to them in that time period. This IS experimental archaeology. He could write a paper on this and submit it to a scientific journal and it could get accepted to further our understanding of the past.
@@petervitale4431 The main problem is that he is not following those sources. He named one last time and just as he had named it he already said which parts he would not follow. The same for the suggested Spanish recipe which he has said in this video he would simply ignore. Lastly we have a dozen and more extant shields from the period that have been analysed and published which publications should be taken into consideration for any testing. And no, if Tod were to write up his process and findings on this shield, as it stands now, this would not be accepted in a scientific publication as it lacks scientific foundation.
@@petervitale4431 But he is not using the sources. He claims to be using one, then he does something different than given in that source. He has also been given at least one more recipe and I have pointed to the dozen or more surviving shields and their analysis (Nickel, Kohlmorggen etc.). And your öast sentence is the crux, Tod could write a paper on his experiment and a scientific journal 'could' accept and publish it. Only that without following the scientific process that is highly unlikely.
In Czech there are many archaic words for gambesons - mainly "prošívanice" (something padded), "krzno" (coat) and "smolenice" (something with resin/tar).
Thanks Eadwin, That is very interesting indeed. Really appreciate it
If you think you had a tough day, remember you could be a piece of gambison inside Tod's workshop.
I love these work-in-progress vids. Really do a good job highlighting your thought process
Got to make you wonder how they came across the mix of dog turds and oak tannin being the magic solution of tanning leather.
undigested leather in dog shit found on saw dust perhaps.
There are a vast number of ways to turn raw hides into leather. For instance brain tanning being one I know has a long recorded history - every animal comes with its own tanning kit, supposedly always enough brain in a creature to tan its own hide!
But who knows which one(s) were discovered first, and why other methods become used - though these people are far from stupid, if they get lucky and see a useful result they will figure out how to replicate it, and then see similarity between other materials. And if a material is really easy to source, or does the job faster/better then it will be no surprise that something common and otherwise waste gets used.
Leather tanning is very old it was done before any pure chemical compounds and even the alchemy was a thing. If everything you have are animal and plant parts and juices you use them. In not so distant past manure was used in buildings, dried as fuel for cooking and urine for washing/cleaning. Soaking things in water and stuff to make things more pliable is still very common for woodworking and basketry.
I would say the chance is quite high that someone will soak something with tannin bound by hide straps in dirty water.... And then it will be just refinement which plants and which turds (and other stuff) work best.
@@ladislavseps4801 My guess is its a bit of both, but the rest is something of travel and meeting people with new ideas. Being you're a Tanner, your chances of meeting people outside your occupation who aren't chucking up their guts is pretty slim. However, if you hear that a city over the hills is using tannin and you're using turds or brains then you might decide to give it a go. Finding that it actually works you might also decide to try using two of those things together in the back of your very smelly shed and coming up with something 'new' that hasn't been done before.
By accident or some truly random trial and error, across thousands of years.
Tod glad you made this because until now I had not seen the first video for this project, and they (both) are very interesting. Thanks!
Can you try a layer of sinew? "Schilde des Spätmittelalters und der Frühen Neuzeit" Has a lot of information about shield construction. Including an original example of a hard layer like the one discussed in this video.
Also to note is that glycerin is a plasticizer for hide glue, so if the chap boiling up the hide glue happened to include some extra bits of cartiledge or sinew in his glue pot, the result would be noticeably less brittle than a pure hide glue.
I see no reason why cartilage or sinew would provide glycerine in appreciable quantities. You can't just cook it out of fat, but it's a byproduct of soap production
@@MarcRitzMD Indeed, they'd need to add soda ash or similar
I love that little stab about black leather.
Thanks Todd.
didn't realise there were viking societies, didn't think they'd not know how to blacken leather given it's the same process for ebonising wood... and was known about 2K years before the 'vikings'... and would've been easily accomplished given they used peat bogs for iron, and peat (the ph of the substrate) + iron = iron tannate. So the water from the area they collected peat would've stained their clothes, skin, and leathers...
also (while completely outside the geographical scope, but within the time period), you could make a square of period aztec armour, they used salt brine rather than glue to infuse, their version of a gambeson, fabric with salt crystals to the same effect.
My understanding is that the black leather ban is a holdover from the early days when the groups were changing from pageantry with minimal research to actually making an effort with the kit. It was put in place to stop 'bikings' in biking leathers.
The reenactment group I'm with does not ban it provided it's actually ebonised like Todd did, or an otherwise natural black - but it is generally kept to a minimum.
Obviously chrome tanned, or analine dyed black leather is hard banned
Good to know the blanket ban is slowly lifting. Also thanks for introducing me to the word 'bikings'
Seems to me that Viking societies should limit the amount of leather in general, since it wasn't often worn by the Norse...
@@MinSredMash Shoes, belts, knife sheaths, scabbard outers - it was used a fair amount based off the archaeology.
I don't know of much evidence of leather being used as clothing (like the '(b/v)ikings' you see in the media), but it was almost certainly not uncommon for specific uses.
@@Oddthetall Yes I meant in terms of clothing. I don't really see how black leather for belts/shoes/sheaths etc could pose much of a problem for authenticity.
I love this channel, thank you for your work.
John Major (1512), who wrote that the common people among the highlanders rush into battle having for body armour a linen tunic manifoldly sewn and painted or daubed with pitch, and covered with deerskin. Bishop John Lesly, around 1578, is more precise, saying the Scots Highlanders wear a coat of mail "over a leather jerkin, stout and of handsome appearance, which we call an acton."
Some do suspect that the pitch and leather was more for waterproofing or keeping their mail dry instead of adding protection.
Great video as always Todd, love your work!
I like how you are in tune with your audience, getting feedback and such.
I wonder if the "Black Gambeson" was actually something similar to oilskin canvas?
They had the technology, at least in the 1500s they did, since they were using oilskin canvas for sails by then, and oilskin coats made today are notoriously tough, so I imagine multiplying that by 30 would only be that much tougher, and relatively waterproof to boot.
The process doesn;t turn the fabric jet black, but it does discolor it and make it darker for sure.
yay! been especially waiting for this one :) pt 1 was brilliant.
always fascinating stuff tod
Another fantastic video, thank you for your work.
Love your work Tod.
Thanks for the updates and clarifications.
looking forward to the testing. black gambeson sounds like a mystery that needs to be solved :)
Well thanks for teaching me what the tanning process required back in the days of old! I love knowing small tid bits like that!
Interesting stuff once again Tod! Making hide glue in an iron pot is a bit dubious choice here, though. Manufacturers of hide glue are quite explicit in mentioning that they should not be in contact with metallic parts as they will oxidize the glue and reduce their strength.
Yes! Been waiting for this one!
Thank you very much for this wonderful content
looking forward to the next step in this experiment as always
Cannot wait for the next episode ❤
Just a thought on hide vs casein glues.
Both glues go back millennia and would have been in fairly common usage and made using easily available materials. Hide glue , however, softens with the application of heat particularly so, when a bit on the damp side. Casein glue does not seem to be much affected by either heat or water. Perhaps the composite material formed with leather, hide glue and glass/iron gave better 'arrow resistance 'in northern countries, which might have been somewhat negated in warmer Mediterranean climates, where the much more heat stable casein glues could have offered a distinct edge ?
Great video, can’t wait for the next one.
This is awesome, and yeah I turned everything on, and if I don't open youtube in a while and come back with 10+ notification, your video is always the first I click!
One day we'll be able to afford to buy Tod a new t-shirt.
Yeah, its getting a little scruffy. However, if he is like me, he'll put the new one in a drawer, and continue wearing the old one. After all, it's just a work shirt, so a few holes aren't important.
Old shirts are the best shirts. I love his ethic of squeezing every ounce of use out of every material and tool he has.
Blacken it in the usual way is the first thing i thought of when i saw that
I still think you should be investigating the Zulu process for leather shields.
Very interesting experiment. I will be looking forward to seeing the results of your testing.
Your merch cuts are getting better :)
I really appreciate the deep consideration! Yo're really driving forward at least my understanding of historical arms & armor! 🙂
Now i'm 1000% interested in this next film! for obvious research purposes (is lying through his teeth, as he is writing an RPG system where one of the materials of armour is hardened cloth)
I'm really excited to see if putting a bunch of sand a iron filings between the layers, actually does anything. I could see it possibly creating more friction for the arrowhead.
It seems like you're making a variation of iron gall ink, which mixes copperas/rusty water with tannic acid from oak galls. I'm the "scribe" in our living history group up here and I make this all the time for the public.
"Lovely dog excrement". - This has major meme clip vibes.
great video as always
Might be late to the party but I've always been impressed by how neat your intro/logo bit is.
Yesss, it's most interesting. Part III please 😁
The level of history being explored is college phd level
Ah, another informative video. *is ready to take notes*
The British museum have a celtic shield made from bark that could be interesting to make and test.
ua-cam.com/video/wMK0mAATSnU/v-deo.html iron age bark shield
5:40 I think something similar about black gambesons is also mentioned in a 13th century norwegian source on how should a the king personal retinue arm themselves
I wonder what advantage ground glass has/might have over sand. Sure seems like it would be easier to send little Johnny down to the river bank than to smash and grind a manufactured material.
I'm curious about that, as well.
I had a leather pouch got wet and had my mail gloves left on it for a, few hours. Left blue grey spots all over it. They went black yes but over the years developed into holes so watch that process. It's like very slow acid.
Yes, that is why dying leather that way, without a thorough rinsing, is a risky approach.
In a similar vein, I have often heard it said that oak was not favoured for tool handles as the tannin accelerates corrosion of the Iron - I've not really found this to be much of a problem, but oak handles will blacken fast near areas of contact, especially when damp.
i demand more experiments like this. well, not like this, but with actual testing. exciting stuff, but such a tease.
The 13th Century Norwegian book "King's Mirror" also mentions blackened gambeson. Some translators have translated it as tarred, some just as black, some as a blackened jacket. I am guessing there is disagreement there, too.
well, i tried the ebonizer solution added with the rabbit skin glue.
It sure colored the leather, well and fast !
But it don't seem harder than the process without the ebonizer recipe.
It still can be modeled and the blade resistance is the same : i can draw with my fingernail, so...
Still a fun experiment to do !
I think there is more than one bath : jelly, skin glue, ending with bee wax... Someone told me about salted solution, but i have doubts
ps : maybe collophane ?
I'm pretty sure we never found an entire recipe in the old books. Such a knowledge is precious, soooo precious...
pps : on turnshoes they use pine goudron and fine earth... instead of skin glue and fine iron... In medieval times glass is so rare... and so precious ! in can't imagine a carolingian recipe using this
French troops are recorded as wearing blackened linen gaiters as late as the 1780s. This would suggest that blackened linen is some type of water proofing.
No shooting today?
Tod be like „I have altered the test, pray I don’t alter it any further“
Nice to see the spark-damaged T-shirt. Shows evidence of plenty of grinding.
Oh, the glue thin already has a modern counterpart with canvas and titebons three and shellack. A Scadian figures that so he could make dirt cheep rigid armor
tod really is what happens when you max out the science tree in syd meyers civilization
It's interesting to watch a skilled craftsman go through the process of creation and iteration, especially when there's a consideration of "how would they have done it?".
I can remember reading a book, many years ago, where they had recipes to make leather more resilient / harder. Cooking the leather and treating it with honey, boiling the leather and hammering it was also mentioned. Could there be processes which have been lost to history that could affect the leather even more than the treatments we know of ? It is a fascinating subject as could the natural leather back then be different from what we recognise as normal leather now, due to breeding etc.
Actually boiling leather? Not something I can see would have much success....the French "cuir boille(?)" (Not 100% sure of the spelling there) has a lot to answer for....maybe?
I love this investigation into middle ages composite armor
Very interesting! I had never heard of these at all. I did wonder about the history of the mayoral chains though.
I've only just started following your channel recently. You know at first I was confused as to who the second Tod was that you were introducing: Tod from Tod's Workshop AND Tod Cutler. I've since found both websites 😂
can't wait!
Yup, the linothorax (literally "linen chest") was, in fact, layers of linen impregnated with glue!
This reminded me that FandabiDozi recently did a video looking at targes and testing their bullet resistance. Not the most scientific but definitely interesting and well worth a look.
Can't wait!
My arming dublet is coated in bees wax to make it more resistance too stapping/piercing , but I have only done some small tests it seems to work, but I need to do some more.
I guess you could use tea as a source of tannin. It would smell a lot better :)
I’ll be interested to watch this when you test it cause I’m interested in making some if it works well
The first person to tan leather.
"Whatcha doin?"
"I dunno, thought I'd take ?$&@ on me tennies."
Never heard of the dog excrement way before. Stale urine and oak bark was the way I heard they tanned leather.
Great content. Keep it up. Do you think maybe they covered the shield and then put the whole thing into the glue perhaps?
Interesting!
Cheers! 💚
Best channel on UA-cam.
Thanks
I just wonder how someone found out that boiling dog feces makes this reaction. I imagine it went something like this "Oh what are you doing? Just boiling some shit for no peculiar reason.".
Life is odd, but to clarify, the dog excrement and oak bark is done cold and just left for months in vats
@@tods_workshop Should have probably listened more carefully. Anyway, amazing channel. Keep up the good work.
Probably left some soiled hide in a wood bucket to soak for a couple days.
Not me ready to sell everything I have and move out to Become His Next Apprentice😅
I just got to the part where you dipped the leather into the vinigaroon. That's what that stain is called. It was used to stain wood too. With maple the rust gives it a red hue and the vinegar gives a brown hue, but that is best with the harder parts of the wood turn red and the softer (the curl or figure) turns a darker brown. Basically its an acid stain like Aquefortis (nitric acid30%-water70& and iron filings). Try the vinigaroon on ash or oak or walnut.
Tod, citizen scientist
If youre into digging deep into sources on this theme, Id suggest you grab Eddie Cheshire's Phd thesis from 2010. He made quite extensive shooting trials with rawhide combined with varying hardfacing layers (hard particles in a hide glue matrix similar to what you have between the leather layers here). Im expecting you to obtain similar results.
Something I've noticed with carbon fiber is that rolling and pressing out the resin makes it stronger than only pressing. I assume it has to do with getting out more air, as rolling combined with vacuum pressing (you know, the proper way of layering carbon fiber) is even better. I wouldn't be surprised at all if mostly drying a stack of glue soaked linen in a clothes press would be a technique they used.
Also, I'm curious if part of the function of the glass is so any blade cutting it gets dulled faster. In humid weather hide glue (even the water resistant kind) gets a little soft ime, kind of like hard plastic. Compare glassfiber reinforced nylon with regular nylon, then try to cut it. The glass messes up HSS quick enough to notice, so regular steel weapons would suffer even worse I think.
You should try case hardening a few arrows to see if you can crack the hardened layer! That alone would cause burrs that would reduce penetration I think.
For reasons unbeknownst to me I find that hide glue stiffened natural cordage is very brittle in the end. As in it breaks quite easy, where the cord would have been impossible to break by hand before. I suspect the hide glue is not the way to go for natural cordage and you need to use something more plastic, like waxy pitch or birch bark tar.
But I cannot wait to see what the sandpaper composite does.
intrtresting
hey tod can you show us how to make pitch the stuff they used to seal ships and such
Banned black leather mad world hope white leathers ok my sofa needs repaired
I gotta wonder what in hell were people thinking when they first discovered how to make leather...
If you ever have the time, can you please test modern maille (the one used for botcher's gloves and aprons)? I've always wondered how it would fare against historic weapons.