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Which bits were not quite right? I thought the lady who came around seemed like she knew what she was doing heat loss calcs wise but wasn't as expert on heat pumps and the local firm owner who was on another level

Seems excellent 👌 That's about what we'd expect

I'm not sure I'm as brave as you! Definitely wouldn't be DIY draining my system and Teeing off into my pipes myself. Id be lost! I've done minor operations as a doctor but I'm no good at DIY/ trades

@@stuartburns8657 did I do my piece about efficiency or SCOP in this one? Heat pumps don't heat your home with electricity directly, they use the refrigerant gas and the fan unit to suck heat from the outside air and bring it into your radiator pipes. Have a Google for a better explanation but essentially they can make between 3 and 5 unit's of heat for every unit of electricity used. This is called COP or coefficient of performance. To break even vs gas it needs an avg over the year or SCOP (seasonal) of 3.6 . Electricity might be 4x the cost of gas but gas boilers aren't 100% efficient. Heat pumps are being suggested as gas boiler replacements because yes they are greener. But after an expensive or sometimes not so bad upgrade - they are cheaper to run. Even with our expensive electricity at the moment. Just imagine how much cheaper it will be if and when the taxes get put on gas and not electricity.....

I know I'm insufferable sometimes but I can't help it

@@edwardbyard6540 scop of 3 is more expensive than gas. I think MCS rules dictate that if the annual predicted SCOP is below 3.6 that the installer shouldn't proceed or modify the design. Maybe consider asking for help from the heat pump UK Facebook group or same from heat geek help for homeowners group. Or ask octopus.

@Lewis_Standing SCOP is 3 is indeed more expensive than gas, but I have storage so my average unit electricity rate is about 10p, so circa 3p per kWh of heat - just marginally cheaper than gas. My loft insulation isn't great and as I said, the settings need work, both of which are on my list to do very soon! It was running with a COP of 4.2 until the very cold weather hit, so annual COP is going to be higher.

Ahh fair enough, thanks for explaining

@@JohnR31415 do you leave some rooms under heated though? The survey numbers pump out, how much heat demand would the whole house need at the MCS minimum temps for each room all year. But if you never heat the spare room - you'll be using less energy than predicted

Amazing 🤩 And I think you're exactly right - octopus are very good at PR and are keen to avoid creating bad publicity re. their heat pumps . Understandably

Did you check with them if they are happy to install 14kW Daikin given your heat loss is 11.8kW?

Yes and it's a no. I knew the 14kw existed from the Daikin website but they've put a 12kw limit on what they'll install currently. I am asking them if I get a new door and if they have definitely counted my new roof insulation - because it we can lower it then we might be a goer.

@@Lewis_Standing I hope they say yes as £7.5k difference is huge. In fact, that money could be used to improve insulation. Fingers crossed.

Also could buy me an All in one givenergy 13kwh home storage battery 🔋

@@davidsinclair144 well included in the price

Except they've told me they don't want to risk it. Heat loss of house too close to the max of unit. They are worried it wouldn't quite manage and I'd be unhappy with them. But I quite agree with you, it's why I got a survey from them post paying for a survey from HG.

@Lewis_Standing can you do anything to reduce heat demand? Extra insulation in the roof? We've added an electrical plinth heater in the kitchen to avoid having to plumb an extra radiator in. Getting a Cosy6 installed next week in Medburn to go with solar, batteries and EV.

I've done all the easy stuff like loft insulation. Apart from the front door being replaced that could relatively cheap and make a big difference, it would have to be EWI. Or lifting all my nice floor and insulating the suspended floor - might be a good thing to do. Bribe my wife with a new kitchen. Insulate the floors and then have a smaller heat pump from octopus

Insulation is a big win for a dozen reasons although it sounds like you’ve done the essentials already.

@@Ifitaintbrokedontfixit yes I was worried about that too. You're quite right. However if we T off into that 22mm pipe work between the floors so that in one direction we have flow to downstairs and the 22mm can give the 6kw heat loss for there, and separately the other flow pipe to stay on the first floor and to join the top floor can take the combined 4kw of the upper floors. We think we're fine. The plan was for heat pump to that T being 33mm I think. I'll have to check the HG quote for that or course in case I'm misremembering . And that plan and surety is why I contacted HG first - but was not shocked at the price but motivated to find an alternative shall we say.

You might not need to change pipes as the delta T of 5C for heat pumps is being allowed to increase to 7 or even 10C.

@@Lewis_Standing You are nearly right, it would have been 35mm pipe which would be good. I am not saying the Octopus system wouldn't work but I would probably go with a knowledgeable local company who you can talk to and get the right system,, not necessarily Heat Geek but they should see you right.

@@davidsinclair144 Most heat pump compressors won't like a DT of 10C.

Yes exactly David, I was worried my home would be too challenging - because changing my pipes would be a nightmare with the primaries hidden under LVT/ AMTICO flooring. So was happy to pay for the HG survey to make sure I could trust the plan they had for install and that it would work. Then double checked with octopus in case I could get a bargain - and use the knowledge I gained from the HG survey to know it would be okay.

Thanks That's a really interesting perspective from an academic background. Have you ever listened to the beta talk podcast? Nathan gambling who runs that is quite a charming fellow. I wonder if your perspective would be interesting to learn from to the wider heating engineer community? He's on Twitter or bluesky if you think you might be interested

I've previously tried and they weren't doing the North East/ Newcastle but I'll double check again Thank you 👍

@robinbennett5994 100KWh or more. But boiler will be only 80% efficient It's a fairly large house larger HP and water cyclinder. There's a bit of pipe finding and investigating to do and Teeing off into the existing pipework not simple because of hardwood floors they can't take off.

@@Lewis_Standing100kWh of gas is only ~4kW over a day…

@@JohnR31415 yes the MCS method can lead to it being oversized. But we can't get the 7.5k BUS grant without following it..... But we don't have weather compensation, that would be 100kwh used over 14hours, with the heating off overnight . So maybe 7- 8kw loss?

@@Lewis_Standing OK, so 100kWh divided by 24 hours is an average of only 4.2 kW. Or 3.3kW of heat if your boiler is only 80% efficient. I'd love to hear what the heat geek guy can do with that knowledge. It may be that they have to use the MCS calculations to get the grant, but they may also be able to design a 4kW system that doesn't need nearly as many changes and works out cheaper without the grant.

It would save us on radiator changes, but already we have very old, single panel ones that really are too cold and take forever to heat up the house. So I wouldn't mind them being swapped out anyway. Bedsides although oversizing isn't perfect x can be less efficient or over cycle and over wear a compressor. Under sizing means that on a frosty or foggy day it might go into a "defrost spiral" and not heat the house or if the grannies come and want it 23c . We have the confidence that it could.

@@steveholliday1599 the prices? Post the grant

@Lewis_Standing Thanks for that. I am paying £17K pre grant (so £10K post grant) for a 4 bed house full re-pipe (we currently have micro-bore so not ideal), all new rads upstairs (all rads are nearly 40 years old), UFH downstairs, 300l hot water tank, 7kW Valiant (and ground works slab for it), removal of all existing pipework, header tanks etc, done with a guy with Heat-Geek credentials. He also did the survey without any charge. So your video helped my wife feel that we had got good value! Thank you.

That does sound good 👍

@@constructioneerful my theory was that all my rads needed swapping to achieve a 50c flow - and the difference between rads to achieve 50 and 45c might not be that large. The differences in price between octopus and the local firm may well reflect the economy of scale between the two and margins. Plus the 6k quote from octopus included a 20% Christmas discount promotion

@@Lewis_Standing I’d assume octopus is still less by several k - after planning issue resolved - then I would ask what can I do with the upfront savings id make - battery ? Solar? Battery likely a big win..

The 45 system is running at 40 for many days a year, and the 50 system is running at 45 for many days a year. You are looking at a 0.5-0.7 reduction in SCOP either way. Have to do your math to see if there's ROI on this for your specific case, or not. Underfloor can sometimes be a good investment, as it massively increases comfort, home value, and can also massively reduce your flow temps.

Oh yes by saying a certain temp flow rate - that would be the highest needed on the coldest day But you get annual predicted SCOPs based on that, on the assumption that it's mostly below that during the warmer months

​go for battery and solar then you can run everything on cheap (cosy) tarrif all the time.

@@SolAce-nw2hf that's good to hear. I'm sold, just need to convince my wife that it's £13.5k well spent 👍

@ Does she like having a warm home? Or maybe cleaner air? Or not funding a war? Maybe she wants to leave a cleaner world for the next generation? Or lower bills as electricity prices drop and fossil fuel cost goes up? Or a safer home without gas? If not, just keep your gas boiler 😂

I'm going with warmer and the grant might reduce and we'll have to spend the money no matter what at some point. She's not as much of an eco nut as me.

@ I can relate. It took some convincing to get the go ahead for project heat pump here. But when I told her she can have the thermostat at any temperature now without worrying about cost or the environment, she was very pleased.

That might be the winner 🤣

Those are all really good points thank you. I'm a bit surprised they would undersize even at the low end. It might be that it's badged as a 4KW but actually can do a bit higher which could explain it. The nominal power labelling isn't regulated so it's a bit in transparent. You'd have to find the technical sheet download from the website. Sometimes it's easier to find them on a wholesaler website than the manufacturers. I completely agree re. It being more key to optimize a high heat loss home than a smaller one too

I think it can produce up to 4.6kW from a data sheet I saw so there is a bit of wriggle room which should be enough, and from what I've heard, the heat loss calculations err on the side of being a bit too high anyway; standard worst-case engineering practice I suppose. The three bedroom radiators meet 98-99% of the size requirement and the other four are between 105-135% of the size requirement so as a whole, the radiators will be slightly too big to meet the design flow temperature so I can probably run a little cooler than 50C though not at 45C I suspect!

Good thing with Octopus, they will replace with big one if your home does not heat up as per their design…well, that’s what they told me when I was scared of 8kW while others quoted me 12-18kW. Heat Geek online was 7.8kW heat loss, which gave me confidence on Octopus 8kW along with their promise to replace it.

@@infty1487 That's great to know, thanks!

Oh really wow, yes that is good. But it might actually be required. I know people with systems that don't function that took installers (who didn't know what they were doing!?) to court for full refund and damages

Yes it would be sensible to do anyway if I had a condensing gas boiler. Only issue would be that you get VAT free ASHP installs when you claim the BUS voucher and includes labour for radiators and the radiator changes itself. any work done not as part of the ASHP installation first, or done after a ASHP installation to reduce the flow from 50 to 45 later would have to include VAT so be 20% more. Still might be sensible to spread costs 🤷

@@Lewis_Standing Yeah good point re: VAT... I suppose if you are thinking in a few years labour cost increases might void any saving vs doing it now. Tricky problem.

Sucking it up and getting a 0% green mortgage loan might be the answer

@@Lewis_Standing "when you claim the BUS voucher ": to be detailled the installer claims , you don't need to pay the £7500 & get it back later, you only pay the difference. ..... one option is DIY fitting radiators before or after install... ,Also fitting huge K3 in the biggest room would define the flow temperature before octopus turn up to survey,

I think you could sweet talk them into adapting where reasonable. The barrier for them with me is that the maximum heat pump size currently is 12kw and they want a size buffer and aren't happy to risk a 11.8kw heat loss. They think it's too close and worry defrosts will mean I get cold.

Yeah and in the grand scheme of things it's cheap compared to moving and being cold or having to waste money on a boiler when this one breaks

@@MegaSuper6000 I'm more of an EV nutter to be honest but I'll comment on here about the price. Because of the BIK tax on petrol cars you don't save any money with a salary sacrifice scheme unless it has super high mpg though

@@MegaSuper6000 BMW 3 SERIES SALOON 320i M Sport 4dr Step Auto [Tech/Pro Pack]  Body Type: Saloon  Fuel Type: Petrol Transmission: Automatic Mileage: 10,000  Lease Length: 36 months Solid - Alpine white M sport suspension Front sport seats Tyre repair kit Acoustic glazing Model designation on right side of tailgate Heating steering wheel Standard seat for driver and passenger with manual adjustment Aluminium rhombicle anthracite interior trim HiFi speaker system with 10 speakers and 205w digital amplifier Storage compartment pack - 3 Series Saloon/Touring Driver backrest width adjustment 18" M double spoke light alloy wheels - Style 848 M bicolour Comfort package - 3 Series Saloon Technology package - 3 Series Sun and heat protection glass dark tinted on rear windows and windscreen M Perform tex cloth - Black with M piping Salary Sacrifice  Monthly Gross Salary Sacrifice: £ 897.40 Savings on NI: £ -17.95 Savings on Tax: £ -216.18 Savings on Pension: £ -112.18 Total savings per month: £ -346.31 Monthly Take Home Pay reduced by: £ 551.09 Monthly Car Tax Liability: £ 466.70 Total cost per month: £ 1017.79 I chose a random selection of options that suited me They only do a 3 series for some reason 🤷

Wow it's actually more expensive!

@ Ah i see… EV is the way to go 🫡

Yup being cheaper will turn the dial 👍

@@BenIsInSweden yes it was for a full home solution with all 11 rooms having a solution. Which might not be strictly necessary and the 17k just put me off. We do have another barrier to A2A which would be we have solid floors down and I'm not sure where the refrigerant lines would go. It's not common in the UK domestically though I understand we do loads for commercial properties. There isn't a multi split on the market to do my heating 11 emitters for each room and a water solution. Perhaps I could do the top floor with a single unit in the hallway

Thats what i have and it is so simple mine was done in a day .

@@Lewis_Standing solid floors shouldn't be a problem.. linesets usually run externally until they need to go in through the wall. So for upstairs the lineset will likely run up the outside of the building until it reaches a viable entry point to the unit/s. My whole house is served by 3 external and 4 internal units. (2 standalone and 1 multisplit), the other standalone one is in the hallway to cover most of the downstairs, and the multisplit covers my daughter's bedroom (as a teenager she likes her door shut) and my office (mainly for AC in summer), but both help with the general heating of the downstairs of the house.

@@edwardpickering9006 the deadline isn't approaching is it??

@Lewis_Standing No, but more that I'll need a non-MCS compliant solution for my new build to avoid having to rip all my plumping out to have it all put back in to the way MCS stringently insists on it...

A2A instead?

@Lewis_Standing Looked at that, even more messy than A2W. External pipework a nightmare...

Have you got carpets or solid floors @edwardpickering9006 ? If carpets I'd totally just take the hit

@@edwardpickering9006 not sure of the business behind it but Sunderland council could have claimed £350 per charger I believe from the government, but this may have only part funded it.. Certainly not making any money currently

@@davidp4456 it's reasonable to be cautious. My friends house with open air bricks got dry rot anyway. So perhaps anything to reduce airflow is a poor idea . But the status quo isn't working as the boards are uninsulated and I don't want to ruin my floors getting to them. It's a compromise for me.

@PropertyAtAuction that sounds about right, might even be more like 20k tbh Edit Though that 30KWh would be heat delivered, and not electricity used. Potentially thats only 10KWh needed per day or even 8. So could be done on a 7k 13kwh givenergy all in one

@@edwardpickering9006 thanks for letting me know on both counts. Did you get to test drive?

@Lewis_Standing Tedt drives not til Feb 25 I gather, but I'm on the list!

I guess the Volvo Ex30 is the biggest competitor, has huge discounts on it too 🥳 I wouldn't mind seeing one either looks fab

@@edwardpickering9006 did the hotels have a Petrol station right next to them I wonder?

@@dharmensoneji3360 yeah I'd rather too, but it's £13500 vs £6000 so I could buy and fit a all in one givenergy battery for the difference. So it's difficult I'm getting octopus round and I'll see. Heat geek heat loss survey and walking me through how it could be done, gives me the confidence it can be done in this property though. And I paid him for his time so I don't feel guilty about it if I can't justify going with him vs octopus.

@@michaelgreen5515 thank you! Glad you're happy. What's the best bit about the eC4 ?

@@PartsSalvage-b6q not cheap! 15,000 miles 36 months is £1600 per month raw. My tax savings would be £600 so works out at £1000 Same terms is £2000 on lease loco PCP would be £1700 a month and then balloon payment is 45k still. So big savings. If you earn more than me your tax savings likely higher too

@@PartsSalvage-b6q sure I can do one, need it quickly? My PC is at the repair shop currently