I consider myself well-informed and educated, but every time I watch one of these, I discover a hundred new and useful things. Kevin Cameron appears to have an infinite amount of knowledge. He can explain complex concepts to an average person such as myself in an enlightening and engaging manner
I don't usually buy T-shirts from the internet, but if I did, they'd say "Cycle World" and "Asperities". There's nothing better than listening to essays on your favorite topics spoken by experts in the field. Keep it up, and thank you.
It doesnt matter what topic gets placed into the title, i watch every episode, there's so much fascinating tangent every time that the primary topic rarely matters.
Another great episode. Your discussion about "feel" brought back memories of a Suzuki 750 that I built in the late 70s where I replaced the stock hydraulic system with Grimeca calipers, master cylinder and braided lines. The braking power improvement was very satisfying but there was virtually no movement at the lever. It was like gripping a steel pipe. Took a while to mentally adjust to every time I rode it. Finances prevented me from seeking out a remedy through additional engineering and I just lived with it. Again, I just love these videos. Great work!
A few years ago I discovered speed bleeders. I now look forward to replacing brake fluid. The bleeders have dope on the threads so when you open the bleeder there is no fluid leaking from it from there you just pump the lever until you are finished with no air getting sucked back into the system. Great time listening to y'all as always.
I was looking through my videos and this stopped me. Hauled me down. Stopped me in my tracks.... sorry. I will watch it. You two are super cool moto informational power houses.
The comment on filling batteries hit home as I started my career in motorsports as an assembly gump who came home several times with holy jeans and shirts.
I'm glad you spoke about the rim brake on the Buell because I owned an 05 XB12SCG and thought that brake was fantastic. However, since I never took that bike to the track I wasn't aware it didn't work as well out there. I loved how easy it was to change the pads on that bike.
I got to ride a 2023 hammerhead with rim brakes and I hated them. I was taking it easy just riding a backroad and was getting brake fade almost immediately. For having a ride by cable 1190cc engine, the brakes were trash. The entire bike wasn't very confidence inspiring. It rode very janky and squirrely. It was like riding a ducati 916 from 20 years ago but worse and less controllable.
Nothing causes "shrinkage" more than not being 100% sure that lever is going to feel the same every time I use it. Sears Point 1980's Formula Singles turn 11 - I knew I could brake very, very late, but eyeballing the barriers and wondering how hard I would hit them after forcing a low side gave me great shrinkage.
Back in 1970, I acquired one of the first Honda CB750K1 motorcycles in Rhodesia, I think there were only 4 of these bikes in the whole country. It was the first bike with a disc brake on the front that I had ever seen or ridden, and it was wonderful. Until it rained, then the coefficient of friction of the brake pads reduced to zero, and there was your front brake gone. The back drum brake still worked, but the coefficient of traction of the tires, had also reduced to zero, and there was your back brake gone, along with any possibility of leaning into a corner. I eventually found that the only way to have any braking at all, in the rain, was to constantly drag the front brake while riding, so as to keep some heat in the disc and pads. I am still, to this day, often amazed how well modern brakes and tires work in the rain, there is almost no loss of performance compared to dry.
My teacher in US Suzuki told me that on the early GT750's with double leading shoe front brakes. If you put the brake plate with shoes in a lathe and turned the shoes down a couple of thousand and made them perfectly round, they were as good as disk brakes until they overheated. 16:50
In 1918, Malcolm Loughead (who later changed his name to Lockheed in 1926) proposed a concept of a four-wheel brake system using hydraulics. Using cylinders and tubes, Lockheed used fluids to transfer force to the brake shoe when a pedal was pressed. It required much less effort for the driver to apply brakes. The hydraulic brake system was first fitted into all four wheels of a Model A Duesenberg car in 1921. However, it was beset with fluid leakage problems, but engineers from the Maxwell Motor Corporation produced rubber cup seals to help solve it. In 1923, the improved Lougheed brakes were offered as an optional upgrade on the Maxwell-Chalmers car for $75. This new brake design was also used in Chrysler cars from 1924 to 1962.
I rode both modern and vintage observed trials from 1994 to 2000. The one takeaway from modern trials bikes is the importance of powerful front brakes that only requires the use of the index finger. This allows the other 3 fingers and thumb to always be wrapped around the grip . Properly setup front brakes should allow you to absolutely lock up the front tire at any speed with a lever squeeze that doesn’t stress the index finger. This reduces fatigue which means less mistakes. It would also be nice to have the clutch pull be an easy one finger task.
Dropping down from the clouds on Philippine mountain road, briskly, the front brake lever suddenly closes to the grip with no resistance whatsover. Pumping it had the feel of a pair of scissors, as the next hairpin corner approaches alarmingly fast. What a relief to find the rear drum brake, with it's primitive mechanical actuation, ready to save the day by scrubbing off enough speed to keep from running wide right off the cliff....
Another great episode, I have learned so much listening to you guys. I'm a little surprised there was no mention of the fluid technology, it must have undergone some revolution to handle the heat and pressure too. Thanks.
Kevin, did you know Ron Wakefield, who showed up at the 1969 Daytona race to compete in the Amateur 100 mile road race on a just-released Kawasaki H-1? His bike was pretty much stock, modified factory mufflers, ran in second place for much of the race-amazing performance. Of relevance to this discussion, I vaguely recall that he ran a spool-hub front wheel with large discs attached on either side of the front rim-many years before Buell. I also vaguely recall that he used cable-operated Campagnolo calipers. His braking performance going into Turn One was pretty good. A Cycle World report from this event is available online, from reporters Dan Hunt and Ivan J. Wagar. Suggestion for a future discussion, a comparison of post-war 500cc singles in terms of cylinder/head material, bore/stroke ratio, valve configuration/actuation, maximum rpm, power output, and other relevant factors-illustrating the relentless advance in the state of the art. Start with the Moto Guzzi Falcone thru BSA Gold Star, Velocette, Matchless G50, culminating in the Manx Norton-and compare them to a modern 450cc Mx/flat track engine in terms of weight, size, and power output. You guys are the best!
In the early 60s we had a Bug Wasp Go Kart equipped with a Palmini disc brake. The caliper was a cast aluminum piece with a reservoir. Campagnolo made a mechanical disc brake.
I had my 1st H2 for 3 weeks only because it took two weeks to figure out the low speed ignition winding solder connection failed. With that fixed I promptly flipped it over backwards and it did 3 1/2 cartwheels to stop. I'm pretty sure the master link was still good but that failed later and I pushed the bike across the Mianus River Bridge in Greenwich, CT. That bridge collapsed a few months later. I ran the bike across the span that fell out. It was bad tipping 6 inches. I found another H2 and built it up as a Cafe Racer. This was 1980 so finding a NOS dual disk front brake kit cost double what I paid for the bike. The additional weight was horrible so I switched the forks and put the calipers on the back side with the bleeders down. Steering improved with the weight below the steering axis. The extra stopping power was needed for the constant 125 mph tank slappers where you needed to lose 50 mph to get back on the throttle. Growing up with RDs I question why it took until 1986 to fit an H2 into an RD 400 frame. The RD-H2 was parked near the pits in Daytona when I saw Kevin checking it out. The unusual rear brake linkage caught his eye and he pushed the petal down to see if it worked. With his mechanical genius he probably questioned how it worked at all. I didn't have a light foot on the rear brake and designed a hinge between the foot petal and master cylinder that gave a longer movement at higher pressure. It worked well almost as much control as the hand brake. The next month Kevin wrote in CW, "I like walking the pits you never know what you'll see." 1997? That was the same year X motorcycle racer turned pilot Alan Ward took his Gulfstream G4 around the highbank at about 200 feet elevation. Near vertical wing angle at 200 mph was impressive. .. Something about the transponder was a problem. The new higher grand stands in place now might make that stunt impossible today.
Have you ever heard of a Drisc Brake system. I was introduced to an English fellow in London Ontario 🇨🇦 who was said to have patenend this. There was talk that NASA had shown interest in the system. It is as combination of both styles If you think of the drum from an automobile and machined both the inner and outer surface. That curved surface is like a curved disc. The caliber grabs the surface ( outer and inner) . They could run multiple calipers The braking potential was enormous. This fellow was involved in a race series called Formula Four( cars). It used 750 cc motorcycle engines. Very interesting race cars that allowed competitors to very creative. Back in England he had worked on the Monocoque style of tub before most F1 teams had adopted it. Colin Chapman took credit for this I was told. Cheers
My thinking was that Rubber brake lines would have more give that would keep you from locking up the front wheel more easily. @ 29:00 you explain how steel lines give you better feel to modulate the pressure on the brake disc. That makes sense. My Buell has steel lines and my Yamaha FZ-07 has rubber lines and I know the Buell takes less finger effort yet I didn't realize the modulation part bot it makes sense. Also I learned in a recent post cast why two strokes go ring ding ding at idle. I always noticed that characteristic, but never knew what caused it. I noticed these knew KTM Modern Two strokes have the same ring ding ding that 1970's two strokes have.. Yet my two stroke snowmobiles don' ring ding ding at all. Of course car Hot Roders know how to recognize the flakey idle of a V-8 with a longer duration cam shaft. I have a Minneapolis Moline Farm Tractor with that that flakey idle it will pull to 4.500 RPM's where stock it was Governed to run up to 2,200 RPM's the same over head valve engine in older models such as a 1945 model was governed at 1,500 RPM;s Now that I know why steel lines are better, it looks like I need to spend more on aftermarket parts on my FZ-07 that handled like a pogo stick before I installed Ohlin Cartridges in the front forks..
Something not discussed here is brake dive. Anti Dive gets a lot of flack these days because it isn't helpful to (or even hurts) track performance. But it's my experience that IN DAILY TRAFFIC anti-dive vastly improves initial brake feel, aiding control over lifting the rear wheel while still braking. No matter how good your brake hardware, if the first .05 second of braking involves compressing your suspension, it won't give you that brake feel. I've had situations in traffic on a bicycle with a rigid fork where not only was my back wheel off the ground, but I was steering to avoid a left turning car cutting me off (this bicycle had hydraulic rim brakes, Magura HS33). When I built a motorcycle with strong anti dive and similar geometry and rider position (and even tire size) I found I could do the same thing, despite it being a quite heavy motorcycle. The motorcycle also had rather soft lines (plus a cable actuated master) and high leverage (calipers were larger area than stock for MC). Maybe this is a perceptual illusion or only applicable to low performance brakes, but I suspect this is why leading links with anti-dive geometry persisted so long on scooters - nobody is taking a scooter to the track, but they are making all sorts of panic stops. I'd hope that manufacturers would give stronger consideration to street use for brakes.
These videos should get millions of views, the content is far superior, so much information compared with 99 % of motorcycle videos on UA-cam. Thanks guys 👍🏻
I have a friend who’s father used to run what we called “Hardtops” and Midgets on a dirt track. They would use wood (specific variety) brake shoe linings on the car . As conditions changed they would saw off a section of the lining creating the early proportioning valve. Balancing front to rear brake bias .
The original Yamaha twin piston fixed iron calipers made their first appearance on the 1972 XS2 650 and then in the following year on the RD350. Japan actually got them in ‘72 on the RX350 Pro which was essentially an R5 with the new disc brake at the front. That iron caliper combined with a solid fixed rotor setup was more than adequate for the street 350 and worked fine on the track with upgraded pads. They were so well thought of that many TD3, TR3 and first year TZs swapped their lovely four shoe drum brakes for the RD fork sliders and brake assemblies. That brake was used through 1978 on the RDs here in the US but the new four stroke models began using the awful, in comparison, aluminum single piston pin slider calipers that lacked the feel and stopping power of the iron calipers. The TZs, including the 750 for a time went to an weight saving aluminum version of the original twin piston caliper which were found to have a bit of flex that was not appreciated in racing and most riders went to other brands of calipers or refit the iron calipers. The alloy caliper was effective on the rear however and remained as standard TZ equipment there for several more years. Funny how all those four shoe brakes thrown into the junk box have, in later days, become $2k, highly sought after pieces 😀🏁
I remember watching Roberts and Lawson on their Yamahasat Daytona, 1982?, had 4 piston Brembo calipers. I called Slater Bros. The following week and had one which is still on my old WERA RD 400.
Quickest way to get air out of a system is by pushing the brake pistons back, into the caliper. The rush of fluid directed towards the master cylinder will take the air with it. In stubborn cases you must perhaps repeat a time or two, but then it should be good. Easiest way - in a clean dry systmem - is to fill from the bottom, zip-tie the brake lever against the throttle grip, turn the handlebar sp that the brake lever end is pointing upwards (cock handlebars full left, bike on side stand) and leave for 24 hours. 9 out of 10 times all air is gone in my experience.
The late and great John Surtees joins with my other heroes, Mike Hailwood and Stirling Moss (in cars) that the throttle position is either fully open or closed. YOu can moderate the bikes speed with the brakes and clutch, but its best to just keep the throttle wide open. Only a few riders of the modern era learned to do this, or have the courage to do so. Maintaining momentum and balance is the key to riding fast.
When I was racing my Suzuki T20 Racer the brakes were not as good as I would like, so unable to afford an Oldani wheel I obtained a CB92 front brake and ran that with the false side removed, it was bigger and stronger than the T20 one, it seems a bit counter intuitive to put a 125 brake onto a much faster and bigger 250 , but needs must😊 I worked as a Post Office messenger, riding a BSA Bantam with tiny pressed steel brakes they DID NOT ‘work well and rain stopped them totally working.
1955 Northwest Model 6 Cable Crane has Brake Hubs and Drums 5 feet in Diameter clutch friction material on the inside of the drum and brake bands on the outside of the drum. Asbestos with bronze impregnation .
I think they called it a full floating drum brake. I tried tying the backing plate to the swingarm and you could feel the suspension movement through the pedal. Disk brake calipers anchored to the swingarm don't have the actuation problem. Ferodo brake linings reminds me of a 'long term owner' dirt bike article where improvements were made. General Motors got a mention for an inline fuel filter. Something that you could see the condition of the filter. Fork scrapers were in at the time instead of gaitors. The brand may have been Gators. Terry Cables were useful at reducing friction. You weren't supposed to oil the Teflon. May have had an Answer exhaust.
Back in the day my buddy had a Morini 3.5 and that had TLS drum brakes- it stopped on a dime. Anyhoo, I has 1st generation FZ750, and that had ventilated discs... like two thin disks mounted together to form a single disc that was ventilated down the middle to aid cooling.
I have a R1 brake I adapted to work on some YZ 125 forks on my Frankenstein bike... Couldn't get them to bleed to save my life! I'd try and try gravity vacuum reverse osmosis nothin!!! I could pump them up but when it was released the fluid would squirt 3 feet in the air air. Finally I pulled the caliper off the forks and shook the heel out of it with the bleeder facing up and leaning that way. I pulled the bleeder all the way out and looked down the hole waiting to see the fluid coming out. Once I saw that I put the bleeder back in and had perfect brakes from then on!
I wouldn't mind giving those Braketech CMC rotors a try. I looked them up, and it appears they are on their 3rd generation, which isn't quite released yet. The weight savings is enormous. It locks you into using a specific Ferodo pad though. They claim it's good for both street and track use. Hopefully, they don't cost an arm and a leg.
I've been in the bicycle biz for decades. Never ONCE, including working cycling tours in the high mountains of Europe have I EVER seen or heard about a tire failure caused by overheating rim brakes on aluminum wheel rims. Carbon fiber bicycle wheels are something else - disc brakes solved that problem when it became obvious carbon fiber wasn't a great idea for a braking surface on the rim itself.
Vintage vehicles with drum brakes the shoes should be inspected regularly because a lot of them are just glued together and we don’t want the fiber to fall off while operating . Especially if on the front !
Brake bleeding made easy. Level the master and with the cap off slowly work the lever till the bubbles stop. Then bleed the calipers. One or two slow pumps with the bleeder left open is all it will take. Clear plastic hose on the bleeder into a bottle of course!
The front brakes on my Aprilia Tuono V4 2022, were incredible but needed new rotors before 5000 miles was up. Warping. £600 please. Unacceptable service life for a road bike. Glad no one mentioned broken bleed nipples in calipers or that crappy honda caliper sliding pin system.
Shoe leather wasn't mentioned here. I used it a lot when in my early teens. My dad wasn't too hot on the idea even though the shoes he bought me cost $2.00. Never mind, shoe leather was mentioned here.
Some yeah, cork doesn't heat up that much and it's pretty light but for descending a col you might want to use pads with more friction material added to it.
once you get brakes, then you need tires. Once you get brakes and tires, you need a fork and front suspension. Then back suspension. Then wheels matter more than they did. Then the brakes suck again and you start trying to control traction with slip monitoring feedback controllers in ABS. Then the tires suck again and so on. At this point even a *super cub* has functional shocks, alloys, surprisingly sophisticated tires, disks and ABS. And all you wanted to do was stop.
Interesting stuff where on earth r the brake manufacturers going to next? That’s incredible glowing carbon carbon discs. What I think is perhaps even more incredible is the fact his front tyre doesn’t let go ! Must b made of super glue 😅
Was wondering if corrugated braking surface would b feasible some one would have thought of this I’m sure More surface area To the point yu may have alter the master cyl for the right feel hmm I’d like to hear from u
I find that the brake assist ratio has to be different for everyone. We all have a somewhat narrow range of good sensitivity, where we're able to precisely modulate application effort, and the assist ratio should be such as to place all the usable braking force within this band of sensitivity. Too much assist and the brakes come on before you've "felt" the application (and thus before you expect it). Too little and you're having to muscle that lever so hard that you have no fine control over it any more. Neither situation is great.
Model T brake drums on a Norton? Being a bit familiar with a 1923 Model T, I can tell you that the brakes, only on the rear wheels and using a one piece cast iron brake shoe, were pretty much useless. One used the reverse pedal acting on a planetary drum in the transmission to slow down.
I would dearly like to hear a podcast from you guys on exactly what are the emissions from a 2-stroke motorcycle and what effect does raising compression, adding fuel injection, water cooling, variable exhaust tunings. and expansion chambers have on degating 'harmful' emission levels. Because Yamaha has patented the word RD 350, there was some belief that a Euro5 emissions compliant motorcycle was in the works for production in 2025. At the ECIMA or whatever it is called European bike show of new models, a new RD 350 that is FOUR STROKE was presented. This was a HUGE disappointment for me as I was waiting to hear Yamaha had finally discovered how to make a clean 2-stroke in the 35 plus years since their last one. One would think that if the issue is just unburned hydrocarbons some kind of catalytic converter would do the trick. Please enlighten me.
Motorcycles are too light to effectively use regen . This light weight means their braking distances are very short. I have my Zero FXS setup with regen when braking but I’ve never seen the battery percentage of charge go up when braking. The regen is activated by the brake light switches so I can get some small amount of rear braking by pulling on the front brake lever just enough to activate the brake light switch but not have the front pads actually start squeezing the rotor.
@truthboomertruthbomber5125 my comment was about the BS of Electric cars making less air pollution. The exhaust is virtually non polluting . Over 95% of "smog" actually comes from brake dust. Electric cars are thousands of pounds heavier using bigger brakes making more dust. The gen Z think this doesn't happen because of "re gen braking" . This has been proven by electric car only zones in London where smog has gotten worse since these zone were mandated
@truthboomertruthbomber5125 whatever I want my E Bike to have 200/17 tire and instant reverse for drifting with a front and back throttle. And no brake dust.
@truthboomertruthbomber5125 Ever ride fixed gear bicycles ? You can get the rear wheel going in reverse while going forward if you're strong enough. and slow down fast than locking up rear wheel. This is done regularly with cars on neutral drop YT channel. A 200HP electric motorcycle could in theory do this.
Buell's "rim" brakes are garbage. They don't even work on the street. Maybe on a slow cruiser just putting around on a joy ride, but on even a slightly spirited ride they start fading real fast. I was starting to get fade after a couple corners. Plus that fixed rotor isn't doing any favors.
I consider myself well-informed and educated, but every time I watch one of these, I discover a hundred new and useful things. Kevin Cameron appears to have an infinite amount of knowledge. He can explain complex concepts to an average person such as myself in an enlightening and engaging manner
I don't usually buy T-shirts from the internet, but if I did, they'd say "Cycle World" and "Asperities".
There's nothing better than listening to essays on your favorite topics spoken by experts in the field. Keep it up, and thank you.
Yes, please!
It doesnt matter what topic gets placed into the title, i watch every episode, there's so much fascinating tangent every time that the primary topic rarely matters.
Thank you gents! Word of the day; Bultaco.
Stopping is more important than going. So said my dear father. R. I.P. pops.
In the days, months and years to come...
...these videos will become the Go To for getting the inside view on motorcycle tech and history...
Splendid. Keep 'em coming.
Another great episode. Your discussion about "feel" brought back memories of a Suzuki 750 that I built in the late 70s where I replaced the stock hydraulic system with Grimeca calipers, master cylinder and braided lines. The braking power improvement was very satisfying but there was virtually no movement at the lever. It was like gripping a steel pipe. Took a while to mentally adjust to every time I rode it. Finances prevented me from seeking out a remedy through additional engineering and I just lived with it. Again, I just love these videos. Great work!
The title should read: random reminiscing about brakes. Still like these guys.
Another super informative belter of a video. Superb, thank you!
so many things to learn about the little stories in between. Thanks guys fantastic.
Absolutely brilliant, Kevin Cameron is the main man👍
A few years ago I discovered speed bleeders. I now look forward to replacing brake fluid. The bleeders have dope on the threads so when you open the bleeder there is no fluid leaking from it from there you just pump the lever until you are finished with no air getting sucked back into the system. Great time listening to y'all as always.
I was looking through my videos and this stopped me. Hauled me down. Stopped me in my tracks.... sorry. I will watch it. You two are super cool moto informational power houses.
The comment on filling batteries hit home as I started my career in motorsports as an assembly gump who came home several times with holy jeans and shirts.
I'm glad you spoke about the rim brake on the Buell because I owned an 05 XB12SCG and thought that brake was fantastic. However, since I never took that bike to the track I wasn't aware it didn't work as well out there. I loved how easy it was to change the pads on that bike.
I got to ride a 2023 hammerhead with rim brakes and I hated them. I was taking it easy just riding a backroad and was getting brake fade almost immediately. For having a ride by cable 1190cc engine, the brakes were trash. The entire bike wasn't very confidence inspiring. It rode very janky and squirrely. It was like riding a ducati 916 from 20 years ago but worse and less controllable.
I Brake for Wednesdays !
Speedway guys say "brakes? we dont need no stinking brakes"
Their brake is the throttle
Your double entendre at the end brought the show to a perfect conclusion.
First comment!!!!
There's no "stopping" me now!!!
Nothing causes "shrinkage" more than not being 100% sure that lever is going to feel the same every time I use it. Sears Point 1980's Formula Singles turn 11 - I knew I could brake very, very late, but eyeballing the barriers and wondering how hard I would hit them after forcing a low side gave me great shrinkage.
Back in 1970, I acquired one of the first Honda CB750K1 motorcycles in Rhodesia, I think there were only 4 of these bikes in the whole country. It was the first bike with a disc brake on the front that I had ever seen or ridden, and it was wonderful.
Until it rained, then the coefficient of friction of the brake pads reduced to zero, and there was your front brake gone. The back drum brake still worked, but the coefficient of traction of the tires, had also reduced to zero, and there was your back brake gone, along with any possibility of leaning into a corner.
I eventually found that the only way to have any braking at all, in the rain, was to constantly drag the front brake while riding, so as to keep some heat in the disc and pads.
I am still, to this day, often amazed how well modern brakes and tires work in the rain, there is almost no loss of performance compared to dry.
That why the put holes in rotors now
When I was a kid I made a wooden scooter with a brake consisting of a stick that scraped the ground. A great discussion guys!
TGIW!!!! I wasn't expecting one today! This is GREAT!!
Another ace chat. Thanks.
My teacher in US Suzuki told me that on the early GT750's with double leading shoe front brakes. If you put the brake plate with shoes in a lathe and turned the shoes down a couple of thousand and made them perfectly round, they were as good as disk brakes until they overheated. 16:50
Nice T-Shirt Mark ! Keep up the good work.
In 1918, Malcolm Loughead (who later changed his name to Lockheed in 1926) proposed a concept of a four-wheel brake system using hydraulics. Using cylinders and tubes, Lockheed used fluids to transfer force to the brake shoe when a pedal was pressed. It required much less effort for the driver to apply brakes.
The hydraulic brake system was first fitted into all four wheels of a Model A Duesenberg car in 1921. However, it was beset with fluid leakage problems, but engineers from the Maxwell Motor Corporation produced rubber cup seals to help solve it. In 1923, the improved Lougheed brakes were offered as an optional upgrade on the Maxwell-Chalmers car for $75. This new brake design was also used in Chrysler cars from 1924 to 1962.
I rode both modern and vintage observed trials from 1994 to 2000. The one takeaway from modern trials bikes is the importance of powerful front brakes that only requires the use of the index finger. This allows the other 3 fingers and thumb to always be wrapped around the grip . Properly setup front brakes should allow you to absolutely lock up the front tire at any speed with a lever squeeze that doesn’t stress the index finger. This reduces fatigue which means less mistakes. It would also be nice to have the clutch pull be an easy one finger task.
Dropping down from the clouds on Philippine mountain road, briskly, the front brake lever suddenly closes to the grip with no resistance whatsover. Pumping it had the feel of a pair of scissors, as the next hairpin corner approaches alarmingly fast. What a relief to find the rear drum brake, with it's primitive mechanical actuation, ready to save the day by scrubbing off enough speed to keep from running wide right off the cliff....
Another great episode, I have learned so much listening to you guys. I'm a little surprised there was no mention of the fluid technology, it must have undergone some revolution to handle the heat and pressure too. Thanks.
Even horse drawn wagons needed brakes
Whoa.
Kevin, did you know Ron Wakefield, who showed up at the 1969 Daytona race to compete in the Amateur 100 mile road race on a just-released Kawasaki H-1? His bike was pretty much stock, modified factory mufflers, ran in second place for much of the race-amazing performance. Of relevance to this discussion, I vaguely recall that he ran a spool-hub front wheel with large discs attached on either side of the front rim-many years before Buell. I also vaguely recall that he used cable-operated Campagnolo calipers. His braking performance going into Turn One was pretty good. A Cycle World report from this event is available online, from reporters Dan Hunt and Ivan J. Wagar.
Suggestion for a future discussion, a comparison of post-war 500cc singles in terms of cylinder/head material, bore/stroke ratio, valve configuration/actuation, maximum rpm, power output, and other relevant factors-illustrating the relentless advance in the state of the art. Start with the Moto Guzzi Falcone thru BSA Gold Star, Velocette, Matchless G50, culminating in the Manx Norton-and compare them to a modern 450cc Mx/flat track engine in terms of weight, size, and power output.
You guys are the best!
In the early 60s we had a Bug Wasp Go Kart equipped with a Palmini disc brake. The caliper was a cast aluminum piece with a reservoir. Campagnolo made a mechanical disc brake.
I had my 1st H2 for 3 weeks only because it took two weeks to figure out the low speed ignition winding solder connection failed. With that fixed I promptly flipped it over backwards and it did 3 1/2 cartwheels to stop. I'm pretty sure the master link was still good but that failed later and I pushed the bike across the Mianus River Bridge in Greenwich, CT. That bridge collapsed a few months later. I ran the bike across the span that fell out. It was bad tipping 6 inches.
I found another H2 and built it up as a Cafe Racer. This was 1980 so finding a NOS dual disk front brake kit cost double what I paid for the bike. The additional weight was horrible so I switched the forks and put the calipers on the back side with the bleeders down. Steering improved with the weight below the steering axis. The extra stopping power was needed for the constant 125 mph tank slappers where you needed to lose 50 mph to get back on the throttle.
Growing up with RDs I question why it took until 1986 to fit an H2 into an RD 400 frame. The RD-H2 was parked near the pits in Daytona when I saw Kevin checking it out. The unusual rear brake linkage caught his eye and he pushed the petal down to see if it worked. With his mechanical genius he probably questioned how it worked at all. I didn't have a light foot on the rear brake and designed a hinge between the foot petal and master cylinder that gave a longer movement at higher pressure. It worked well almost as much control as the hand brake.
The next month Kevin wrote in CW, "I like walking the pits you never know what you'll see." 1997?
That was the same year X motorcycle racer turned pilot Alan Ward took his Gulfstream G4 around the highbank at about 200 feet elevation. Near vertical wing angle at 200 mph was impressive. .. Something about the transponder was a problem. The new higher grand stands in place now might make that stunt impossible today.
Have you ever heard of a Drisc Brake system. I was introduced to an English fellow in London Ontario 🇨🇦 who was said to have patenend this. There was talk that NASA had shown interest in the system.
It is as combination of both styles
If you think of the drum from an automobile and machined both the inner and outer surface. That curved surface is like a curved disc. The caliber grabs the surface ( outer and inner) . They could run multiple calipers
The braking potential was enormous.
This fellow was involved in a race series called Formula Four( cars). It used 750 cc motorcycle engines. Very interesting race cars that allowed competitors to very creative.
Back in England he had worked on the Monocoque style of tub before most F1 teams had adopted it. Colin Chapman took credit for this I was told.
Cheers
My thinking was that Rubber brake lines would have more give that would keep you from locking up the front wheel more easily. @ 29:00 you explain how steel lines give you better feel to modulate the pressure on the brake disc. That makes sense. My Buell has steel lines and my Yamaha FZ-07 has rubber lines and I know the Buell takes less finger effort yet I didn't realize the modulation part bot it makes sense.
Also I learned in a recent post cast why two strokes go ring ding ding at idle. I always noticed that characteristic, but never knew what caused it. I noticed these knew KTM Modern Two strokes have the same ring ding ding that 1970's two strokes have.. Yet my two stroke snowmobiles don' ring ding ding at all.
Of course car Hot Roders know how to recognize the flakey idle of a V-8 with a longer duration cam shaft. I have a Minneapolis Moline Farm Tractor with that that flakey idle it will pull to 4.500 RPM's where stock it was Governed to run up to 2,200 RPM's the same over head valve engine in older models such as a 1945 model was governed at 1,500 RPM;s
Now that I know why steel lines are better, it looks like I need to spend more on aftermarket parts on my FZ-07 that handled like a pogo stick before I installed Ohlin Cartridges in the front forks..
Something not discussed here is brake dive. Anti Dive gets a lot of flack these days because it isn't helpful to (or even hurts) track performance. But it's my experience that IN DAILY TRAFFIC anti-dive vastly improves initial brake feel, aiding control over lifting the rear wheel while still braking. No matter how good your brake hardware, if the first .05 second of braking involves compressing your suspension, it won't give you that brake feel.
I've had situations in traffic on a bicycle with a rigid fork where not only was my back wheel off the ground, but I was steering to avoid a left turning car cutting me off (this bicycle had hydraulic rim brakes, Magura HS33). When I built a motorcycle with strong anti dive and similar geometry and rider position (and even tire size) I found I could do the same thing, despite it being a quite heavy motorcycle. The motorcycle also had rather soft lines (plus a cable actuated master) and high leverage (calipers were larger area than stock for MC).
Maybe this is a perceptual illusion or only applicable to low performance brakes, but I suspect this is why leading links with anti-dive geometry persisted so long on scooters - nobody is taking a scooter to the track, but they are making all sorts of panic stops.
I'd hope that manufacturers would give stronger consideration to street use for brakes.
These videos should get millions of views, the content is far superior, so much information compared with 99 % of motorcycle videos on UA-cam. Thanks guys 👍🏻
Those tire brakes on my mini bike (Cat) were big fun on a rainy day.
Alright... I'm ready to watch. Go ahead and brake it to me. The quips just don't stop!
I have a friend who’s father used to run what we called “Hardtops” and Midgets on a dirt track.
They would use wood (specific variety) brake shoe linings on the car .
As conditions changed they would saw off a section of the lining creating the early proportioning valve.
Balancing front to rear brake bias .
The original Yamaha twin piston fixed iron calipers made their first appearance on the 1972 XS2 650 and then in the following year on the RD350. Japan actually got them in ‘72 on the RX350 Pro which was essentially an R5 with the new disc brake at the front. That iron caliper combined with a solid fixed rotor setup was more than adequate for the street 350 and worked fine on the track with upgraded pads. They were so well thought of that many TD3, TR3 and first year TZs swapped their lovely four shoe drum brakes for the RD fork sliders and brake assemblies. That brake was used through 1978 on the RDs here in the US but the new four stroke models began using the awful, in comparison, aluminum single piston pin slider calipers that lacked the feel and stopping power of the iron calipers. The TZs, including the 750 for a time went to an weight saving aluminum version of the original twin piston caliper which were found to have a bit of flex that was not appreciated in racing and most riders went to other brands of calipers or refit the iron calipers. The alloy caliper was effective on the rear however and remained as standard TZ equipment there for several more years. Funny how all those four shoe brakes thrown into the junk box have, in later days, become $2k, highly sought after pieces 😀🏁
I remember watching Roberts and Lawson on their Yamahasat Daytona, 1982?, had 4 piston Brembo calipers. I called Slater Bros. The following week and had one which is still on my old WERA RD 400.
Quickest way to get air out of a system is by pushing the brake pistons back, into the caliper. The rush of fluid directed towards the master cylinder will take the air with it. In stubborn cases you must perhaps repeat a time or two, but then it should be good. Easiest way - in a clean dry systmem - is to fill from the bottom, zip-tie the brake lever against the throttle grip, turn the handlebar sp that the brake lever end is pointing upwards (cock handlebars full left, bike on side stand) and leave for 24 hours. 9 out of 10 times all air is gone in my experience.
The late and great John Surtees joins with my other heroes, Mike Hailwood and Stirling Moss (in cars) that the throttle position is either fully open or closed. YOu can moderate the bikes speed with the brakes and clutch, but its best to just keep the throttle wide open. Only a few riders of the modern era learned to do this, or have the courage to do so. Maintaining momentum and balance is the key to riding fast.
When I was racing my Suzuki T20 Racer the brakes were not as good as I would like, so unable to afford an Oldani wheel I obtained a CB92 front brake and ran that with the false side removed, it was bigger and stronger than the T20 one, it seems a bit counter intuitive to put a 125 brake onto a much faster and bigger 250 , but needs must😊
I worked as a Post Office messenger, riding a BSA Bantam with tiny pressed steel brakes they DID NOT ‘work well and rain stopped them totally working.
1955 Northwest Model 6 Cable Crane has Brake Hubs and Drums 5 feet in Diameter clutch friction material on the inside of the drum and brake bands on the outside of the drum. Asbestos with bronze impregnation .
I think they called it a full floating drum brake. I tried tying the backing plate to the swingarm and you could feel the suspension movement through the pedal. Disk brake calipers anchored to the swingarm don't have the actuation problem.
Ferodo brake linings reminds me of a 'long term owner' dirt bike article where improvements were made. General Motors got a mention for an inline fuel filter. Something that you could see the condition of the filter. Fork scrapers were in at the time instead of gaitors. The brand may have been Gators. Terry Cables were useful at reducing friction. You weren't supposed to oil the Teflon. May have had an Answer exhaust.
You just describe my bleeding experience on my VTX 1800
Back in the day my buddy had a Morini 3.5 and that had TLS drum brakes- it stopped on a dime. Anyhoo, I has 1st generation FZ750, and that had ventilated discs... like two thin disks mounted together to form a single disc that was ventilated down the middle to aid cooling.
I'm a simple man,I see Ducati SuperSport i press Like👍
I have a R1 brake I adapted to work on some YZ 125 forks on my Frankenstein bike... Couldn't get them to bleed to save my life! I'd try and try gravity vacuum reverse osmosis nothin!!! I could pump them up but when it was released the fluid would squirt 3 feet in the air air. Finally I pulled the caliper off the forks and shook the heel out of it with the bleeder facing up and leaning that way. I pulled the bleeder all the way out and looked down the hole waiting to see the fluid coming out. Once I saw that I put the bleeder back in and had perfect brakes from then on!
I wouldn't mind giving those Braketech CMC rotors a try. I looked them up, and it appears they are on their 3rd generation, which isn't quite released yet. The weight savings is enormous. It locks you into using a specific Ferodo pad though. They claim it's good for both street and track use. Hopefully, they don't cost an arm and a leg.
I've been in the bicycle biz for decades. Never ONCE, including working cycling tours in the high mountains of Europe have I EVER seen or heard about a tire failure caused by overheating rim brakes on aluminum wheel rims. Carbon fiber bicycle wheels are something else - disc brakes solved that problem when it became obvious carbon fiber wasn't a great idea for a braking surface on the rim itself.
Vintage vehicles with drum brakes the shoes should be inspected regularly because a lot of them are just glued together and we don’t want the fiber to fall off while operating . Especially if on the front !
Brake bleeding made easy. Level the master and with the cap off slowly work the lever till the bubbles stop. Then bleed the calipers. One or two slow pumps with the bleeder left open is all it will take. Clear plastic hose on the bleeder into a bottle of course!
The front brakes on my Aprilia Tuono V4 2022, were incredible but needed new rotors before 5000 miles was up. Warping.
£600 please. Unacceptable service life for a road bike.
Glad no one mentioned broken bleed nipples in calipers or that crappy honda caliper sliding pin system.
Shoe leather wasn't mentioned here. I used it a lot when in my early teens. My dad wasn't too hot on the idea even though the shoes he bought me cost $2.00. Never mind, shoe leather was mentioned here.
There is nothing quite like losing your brakes. Especially into T3 at Loudon. 😮
What’s amazing is that transport trucks are available with disc brakes but the vast majority are still drum?
Tour De France bikes use Cork brake pads on carbon fiber rims
Some yeah, cork doesn't heat up that much and it's pretty light but for descending a col you might want to use pads with more friction material added to it.
@LaurentiusTriarius they use them so their 4000 Dollar carbon fiber rims don't get tore up
You never mentioned the BMW (and EMW) "strangler" brakes- contracting shoes around the drive shaft.
once you get brakes, then you need tires. Once you get brakes and tires, you need a fork and front suspension. Then back suspension. Then wheels matter more than they did. Then the brakes suck again and you start trying to control traction with slip monitoring feedback controllers in ABS. Then the tires suck again and so on. At this point even a *super cub* has functional shocks, alloys, surprisingly sophisticated tires, disks and ABS. And all you wanted to do was stop.
If your brakes don't stop you, something else WILL!!
Interesting stuff where on earth r the brake manufacturers going to next? That’s incredible glowing carbon carbon discs. What I think is perhaps even more incredible is the fact his front tyre doesn’t let go ! Must b made of super glue 😅
Was wondering if corrugated braking surface would b feasible some one would have thought of this I’m sure More surface area To the point yu may have alter the master cyl for the right feel hmm I’d like to hear from u
I find that the brake assist ratio has to be different for everyone. We all have a somewhat narrow range of good sensitivity, where we're able to precisely modulate application effort, and the assist ratio should be such as to place all the usable braking force within this band of sensitivity. Too much assist and the brakes come on before you've "felt" the application (and thus before you expect it). Too little and you're having to muscle that lever so hard that you have no fine control over it any more.
Neither situation is great.
Model T brake drums on a Norton? Being a bit familiar with a 1923 Model T, I can tell you that the brakes, only on the rear wheels and using a one piece cast iron brake shoe, were pretty much useless. One used the reverse pedal acting on a planetary drum in the transmission to slow down.
Hi guys,what about brake bands.
Rickman/Lockheed 1966 on.
Since early motorcycles like the Indian were direct drive, the whole idea was NOT to stop, ever. 😅
Any comment on why racers take their foot off the inside peg under hard braking?
Apparently, a Rossi invention.
Lowers the CG so the back tire stays closer to the pavement which allows them to brake harder with the front brake.
Dittos!
the bikes became serius on brakes after the 70 s not the 20s that is ridiculous
Every Wednesday I end up back on Facebook marketplace….
I would dearly like to hear a podcast from you guys on exactly what are the emissions from a 2-stroke motorcycle and what effect does raising compression, adding fuel injection, water cooling, variable exhaust tunings. and expansion chambers have on degating 'harmful' emission levels. Because Yamaha has patented the word RD 350, there was some belief that a Euro5 emissions compliant motorcycle was in the works for production in 2025. At the ECIMA or whatever it is called European bike show of new models, a new RD 350 that is FOUR STROKE was presented. This was a HUGE disappointment for me as I was waiting to hear Yamaha had finally discovered how to make a clean 2-stroke in the 35 plus years since their last one. One would think that if the issue is just unburned hydrocarbons some kind of catalytic converter would do the trick. Please enlighten me.
Radial calipers did not feature oddly.
Please explain how re gen electric braking is BS
Motorcycles are too light to effectively use regen . This light weight means their braking distances are very short. I have my Zero FXS setup with regen when braking but I’ve never seen the battery percentage of charge go up when braking. The regen is activated by the brake light switches so I can get some small amount of rear braking by pulling on the front brake lever just enough to activate the brake light switch but not have the front pads actually start squeezing the rotor.
@truthboomertruthbomber5125 my comment was about the BS of Electric cars making less air pollution. The exhaust is virtually non polluting . Over 95% of "smog" actually comes from brake dust. Electric cars are thousands of pounds heavier using bigger brakes making more dust. The gen Z think this doesn't happen because of "re gen braking" . This has been proven by electric car only zones in London where smog has gotten worse since these zone were mandated
@truthboomertruthbomber5125 whatever I want my E Bike to have 200/17 tire and instant reverse for drifting with a front and back throttle. And no brake dust.
@@stewart8127 I don't have an E bike because I want to save the world. I have one because it''s fun to ride.
@truthboomertruthbomber5125 Ever ride fixed gear bicycles ? You can get the rear wheel going in reverse while going forward if you're strong enough. and slow down fast than locking up rear wheel. This is done regularly with cars on neutral drop YT channel. A 200HP electric motorcycle could in theory do this.
Buell's "rim" brakes are garbage. They don't even work on the street. Maybe on a slow cruiser just putting around on a joy ride, but on even a slightly spirited ride they start fading real fast. I was starting to get fade after a couple corners. Plus that fixed rotor isn't doing any favors.