Other videos you may like: It Happened! Installing My Own Electric Vehicle Charger! ua-cam.com/video/3-HEKqeSrwk/v-deo.html Nightmare Electric Vehicle Charging Install: ua-cam.com/video/wMvbnytEq3U/v-deo.html Zappi Installation for E Golf: ua-cam.com/video/ObVxF7vQRaQ/v-deo.html
First, you have the UK/EU style car charge connectors, the CSS. Here in the US, they have the proprietary Tesla connector, which is locking. The primary function of the button is to unlock the connector. With the locking connector, nobody but you can unlock it when you are using a Supercharger. There are those who arrive to find all the chargers full and unplug someone so they can charge. The unlock button doesn't work unless the car is turned on. Our power is a little different here too. Most 240 volt applications here use 4 wire cables. L1, L2, neutral and earth ground. Here, when wiring the wall connector, we use 3 wires - L1, L2 and earth ground. Here, the potential between either L1 or L2 and neutral is 120 volts. Potential between L1 and L2 is 240 volts. We don't need neutral for this application. So, earth ground is available from our supply cable and a seperate ground stake is not needed.
In the US a Tesla Wall Connector (like all level 2 charging, the Tesla device is not actually a charger, it's just a connector to line power, the charger is in the car itself) has a GFCI built in. I am not sure of the correct terminology in the UK but the US GFCI measures ground fault current (current flowing through your body to ground when touching the car) and instantly disconnects power if such a fault occurs. I would be surprised if the Tesla wall connectors sold in UK and EU would leave off the GFCI.
The cost, ease of installation and built in features of the Zappi far outweigh the 'ooh it looks nice' initial shine of the Tesla charger. Just paying for the name I'm afraid.
I recommend getting the Tesla key. Double press the middle button to unlock the car then hold the boot button to unlock the charge cable and remove it. It's totally reliable and a nicer experience than using the app or getting into the car to unlock the charge cable. Yes it's £150 but paired with a Zappi charger and the lack of costs getting separate consumer unit and earth rod the total price and experience will be better than having the Tesla charger installed. Thanks for making these video - I enjoy watching them!
6:15 I don't understand why you might need a PEN fault detection device if exporting a TN-S earth to the charger. I installed a Tesla charger in July, using the network earth provided by Western Power as a conductor separate from the neutral.
What do the button if do you have more as one Tesla? Open nearest or all or ... ? How many Tesla charger do you can install at one UK house? It looks the Zappi "see" how many power use and so do you can make party at home and charge all e-cars from your friends and your at same time. BTW: Can Tesla make charge guests cars if you are not at home? I think Tesla know position and how many power consuming at charging - technically one of the typically smart home functions. Same do you do with pet door and pet chip or with door key and your kid. Normal cars have typical "comeing home"/"leave home" functions, aso.
Advantages of TWC - good for 3 phase supplies - port opening button - load-sharing for two cars using communication link wire Disadvantages - no built in PEN failure protection, so needs rod or O-PEN device - no built in DC sensitive RCD, so needs type B upstream
Safety systems aside... Ev.energy app is all you need, you don’t need a smart charge point, the app will control the car and tell it when to charge, the app will take advantage of Time Of Use tariffs and schedule your charge to be at the cheapest points in your tariff 👍
Thats nice for people with Tesla or other high end electric vehicles that have there own app and are connected to the internet, many cheaper ev dont have app and are not connected to the internet, so no way for EV.Energy to be able to connect to the car. Thats why smart chargers are important they have internet connection and become the point where EV.Energy can control. So its not a one size fits all, thats why there are both available in the marketplace.
There is one good reason you should never hand hold a video camera (other than for a 45 second news essential) it makes viewers feel sick and will stop people watching... with chargers - agree entirely.
Page 6 of the Tesla wall connector installation manual says "This Wall Connector has a ground monitoring circuit that continuously checks for the presence of a safe ground connection and automatically recovers from faults." Wouldn't this safeguard against a PEN fault?
I am in the United States with 240 V single phase. The charger claims that it has a ground fault interrupter and that a GFCI is not required. But, if in doubt, one could replace the breaker with a GFCI. They are $180, though. Your 3-phase cable is quite a lot thicker than our single phase version.
I'd say that using the button to stop charging and unlock the cable is more useful than using it to open the flap; otherwise you need to open the app on your phone or open the car to operate the touchscreen (waiting for it to wake up etc), which is much more time consuming. Sure, there is more work involved installing these devices but that's a one-off cost. I like how simple these are, with less to go wrong and no reliance on wifi and 'cloud' services.
Why not to buy pen fault detection device and install it for complete house installation? Whatever you explain about ev is apply to the house appliances like washing machine. Fridges etc. am i correct? Thanks
Presume cable is heavy because it is three-phase? Isn’t the Tesla charger three-phase capable? Also, there is some smarter daisy-chaining functionality, sharing the overall load if you want more than one charger on a property isn’t there?
Can you deal with constructive criticism? It seems not!! You only reply to peeps bigging you up and agreeing with everything you say!! Shame, because I like your content.
Something I have not seen mentioned in any EV charge point video that I think is worth pointing out is that it is not permitted to install a single phase charging point, even one with built in pen fault detection such as the Zappi on one phase of a three phase installation.
Really appreciate it that, although you had some doubts about the product in the first place, you still installed it just to validate your opinion. Much appreciated! Very interesting to watch and hear your substantiated opinion.
750GBP for a Zappi? Looks like they're significantly cheaper in their home country.. I can't seem to find them below 1100 Euro (~1050GBP) on the mainland, and that's usually the versions without attached cables. I wanted a Zappi, but based on price I went for an ABB TerraAC instead. Also Zappi isn't terribly clear about which of their various attachments you need for which cases and how to set them up. As you're an EV expert and Zappi fan, perhaps you could spend a video on those boxes in detail?
I have installed EV chargers in the US for about 5 years now and I can see there are many differences in code requirements between the two nations. First of all the way it is wired up here would be a violation in the states. Second no copper rod needed in the states, just a grounding conductor directly from the origin panel. Third, no RCD protection required (which sounds to me like the equivalent of Ground Fault Circuit Interruptors). Also installing wall connectors on the exterior, although possible, is rare. We usually install them right in the garage or carport although it is outdoor rated. As for your issue with the cord there are many different cable dispensers available on the market here perhaps they haven't made it over.
You are missing the, in my opinion, best feature of the tesla "button"; sure it opens the flap, that can be done easely - the BIG advantage is that it also can be held down and release the charger again. This is something that can only be done awkardly by opening the app; waiting for the app to wake the car; "stop charging" - "unlock charger" - or to get in the car, click "release charger" and get out, remove it and so on; its MUCH smoother to just hold down the button for a few sec. till it releases.
If you want to know energy usage doesn’t your car tell you that anyway? Also isn’t charging all controlled through the car and Tesla app? Doesn’t seem like there’s much point in actually having a ‘smart’ charger.
WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO LIVE AT THE TOP OF TOWER BLOCKS, OR TERRACED STREETS WITH ONLY ON STREET PARKING AND YOU CAN'T GET YOUR CAR LESS THAN 100 YARDS FROM YOUR FRONT DOOR?
You can get non oem type 2 cables with the tesla botton, so you can match that to a charger with type 2 outlet. I compared prices in norway (parts only) 22kw, tesla charger 5000kr+ chint earthfault protection 1500kr. The zappy is 10.000kr + cable 2500kr. So basicly twice the cost. Another thing, the waterproofing over time, is not superb on the tesla plug.
I agree as a simple to install option the Zappi is very good. However the issues we’ve had with the internal RCD tripping makes it unreliable. What is your experience and that of your customers?
Hi Artisan, Thanks for creating this video. However, the Wall Connector has an internal circuit that verifies the presence of the earth ground. If the ground isn't present or if the test circuit itself fails, the charger will not operate, thus providing additional safety, overcoming the concerns you mention. Am I overlooking something?
Well, that's simiple... you need a Powerwall and a Tesla Gateway... then you can monitor all that stuff! Of course I'm being snarky, but that said, the Tesla Powerwall App is pretty great... Totally agree about the "cable management"... you'd think the designers @ Tesla would've come up with something slicker.
The Tesla charger does not charge faster than any other brand. Speed is related to the electrical connection. More specifically on how big the fuse is behind the charger.
My thoughts exactly, at least you put the Tesla wall connector in, and everyone could see what was involved in installing it, in a safe manner within the regs. For me the Zappi wins hands down every time. Thanks for sharing.
The Tesla wall connector was designed to fit many markets, not just the UK. Which is why it lacks certain features when compared to the zappi, which was built with UK regulations and wiring practice in mind. So the Zappi will of course win here. As to the zappi app... If one needs scheduling, then, as long as either the car or the EVSE can do it... it's really immaterial; beyond that, it's just down to personal preference in gadgets.
isn’t the only real benefit the remote control to open the tesla flap? It is something I’d like on other cars/chargers - to be able to plug in/remove the cable without needing to get in the car. But the cons clearly outweigh that.
The cost of the Tesla charger is included with the purchase of the New Car so when you install the additional RCD and PEN system that balance out the overall cost of the electrical installation
Totally agree. I Installed a Zappi and sold the wall connector that came with the car (Australia) on eBay. I would like a button though. Myenergi should have the Tesla button as an option.
How often do PEN faults occur? I was a highway engineer and when we went through a cable that was that - flash - bang - wallop - power off, so where else would a fault develop? The chance of just breaking a PEN through excavation work is practically nil. As a non sparky who has just bought an electric car I have been clueing up on the regs and it seems clear that most problems could occur due to PME systems failing, so is it a bad system? Do they often fail or are the regs too over cautious? After watching John Wards presentation on EV charging points I am beginning to wonder if I should have stuck to good old petrol.
It’s more to do with old cables that have worn out over time, they reckon about 400 per year or something like that there is a document stating exact figures but I can’t remember off the top of my head
PEN faults, although they still happen are a thing of the past. Look back to the beginning of PME or TN-C-S, it was a 240V overhead supply, rather than running 3 conductors, they got away with running 2, bonding the neutral conductor every 6th pole to earth with an earth electrode. Todays PME is totally different using CNE cable feeding properties either over ground or more commonly underground. The days of a neutral conductor breaking without shorting to phase are few and far between
My electric car is on order. I've done my research into what the home chargers look like - and I've come across the Andersen. From an astetics perspective, this is the one I want to go for. I have a couple of questions. 1. Does it stand up from a protection and functionality point of view versus pod point or Zappi? 2. If so - should I get it installed by Andersen themselves or would it be cheaper for a qualified electrician to install for me? Thanks
@@samuelchamberlain2584 I guess it is for the situation when a TNS property later becomes TNCS. Why has TNCS been permitted when it is so dangerous? How can anybody respect the regulations when such a gaping fundamental cost saving exercise has been performed at the expense of people's lives? Also, why isn't charging your car from your 13A plug banned? Are these adapters isolated supplies while proper EV charging points are not?
@@samuelchamberlain2584 Thank you! Is there an equivalent for how a TNS repair is made? Still trying to assess the realities of PEN faults with a TNS system re EV charging. Also, in that video, I didn't understand why replacing copper with brass would prevent galvanic corrosion with aluminium. I guess the assumption is that the moisture needed for such corrosion would only come along the copper conductor and there would not be enough to reach the aluminium part of the clamp but I don't know.
A very quick question. How common are PEN faults. I'm quite interested to know. I live in the countryside and have replaced the house ground spike and added ones for the two workshops which share power from the house through their own RCD protected CUs.
@@artisanelectrics I wonder if something like that should be a part of an EV MOT. So long as the earth bond from the car's body back to the charger's RCD is OK then the charger should notice anything wrong. You can easily imagine the charge cable being damaged as it's plugged and unplugged a lot more than most appliances and lives outside. The earth bonding inside the vehicle is also subjected to a lot more shocks and vibrations than most things. Tools tend to be double insulated but cars aren't. I tested a Tesla once (more as a "I wonder if" than anything) and it failed on insulation resistance, which probably isn't surprising!
Do not buy a Tesla home charging station. I bought one I've had issues with it Tesla won't help. I've had four electricians look at it to make sure all the wiring is correct they all say it is. I had it disconnected brought it to the dealership where I bought my car and they looked at me and said there's nothing we can do about it here. I asked if they had a number I could call or an email address for about it and they shrugged their shoulders and said no. The one Tesla employee looked at me and said they have a lot of issues with the Tesla home charging stations and he would suggest not buying another one.
Don't have many choices here (US) because they use the proprietary (much smaller) plugs here in the states, however with expensive adapters you could use a 3rd party one. With the 3rd gen here you get WiFi integration and load sharing if you have multiple Teslas. However its like Apple you have to get all their products to integrate together, car, charger, solar panels, battery packs etc. But if I were in the UK, I believe that the Zappi would be the one I would get as well.
I've recently found your channel and as a electrician who's not looked into EV Charging (Yet) well apart from here I've found your info to be really interesting. I see it as a part of our industry that's going to exponentially increase over the next decade.
Probably it's a five core 6mm² and two smaller signal wires inside for the communication between car and charger. This is what I got here too. And the PEN won't fail by itself, it's mostly caused by construction work out on the street. The problem in the UK is, mostly single phase in domestics. On a three-phase installation it is much easier to detect a PEN fault by monitoring the voltages between the lines, between the single lines and the PEN. The voltages between the lines and the PEN should be 230V +/-10%, the voltages between the lines should be 400V. In case of a broken PEN the voltages between a line and a neutral will move arround between 0 and 400V, depending on the impedance of the connected appliances. For example: A heater with 3680W (14.4 Ohms) is connected to a circuit fed by L1, a soldering iron with 20W (2645 Ohms) is connected to a circuit on L2. They're both connected with the PEN on one pole, the other pole is connected to the line L1 or L2. The PEN is the center point of this circuitry. But if the PEN breaks, the appliances are resistors connected in series between 400V and create a voltage divider. Which voltages you get depend on the ratios of the resistance of the connected appliances. In my example the heater will "see" 2.2V, and the soldering iron 397.8V. This will be the same in the UK, because below the streets are three-phase cables, but the houses of the streets are distributed evenly on all three phases. This means not only your appliances count in. Also what your neighbours, which are connected to the same damaged cable, have connected to their installation. This can also happen in a TN-S system when the neutral breaks. But in that case metal housings of class 1 appliances would not become live, that's actually a specialty of the TN-C(-S) system.
I’ve seen a few of these destinations chargers about at hotels, are you saying they are a hazard potential! as I don’t know if good practice has been followed. Why would the regulations allow theses to be sold if so much extra has to be done to make them safe, it very worrying.
I really enjoy your channel, even though I am in the US. It does unfortunately sound like the Tesla wall connector is really not good for the UK. I can see that. In the US, where I am (specifically in Chicago), I think it doesn't have many of those obvious downsides compared to other units. I personally don't even use a wall connector for my Model 3. I use a mobile connector, plugged into an exterior 240 volt (50 amp) outlet or a 240 volt (20 amp) outlet in the garage. After paying for the car, I prefer to not spend an extra $500 to charge the car. In Chicago, metallic electrical conduit is required, so everything is generally grounded by default, and Ground Fault protection (I forgot what it is called in the UK) would be part of the circuit breaker in the breaker box (consumer unit?), on both legs of the 240 volt circuit. For new homes here, I think Arc Fault protection is also now required (not sure what that would be called in the UK). While we do have a smart electric meter with an electric plan that has rates (tariffs?) that can vary hourly, they are so predictable that setting the car to have a fixed time to charge at night is sufficient where we live. For good or for bad, it does appear possible that the Tesla wall connector was designed for the US market, and maybe specifically for the California/Oregon market initially. A lot of the really cool EVs and types of charging equipment are not even sold in the US yet, as far as I can tell. When wall units (that have probably $20 worth of parts in them) are sold for less than $100, they will be more attractive to me. :)
The typical US installation uses a split-phase transformer local to the property. There the locally created N is earthed once to a local PE, so basically matches a TT installation with no need for a PEN fault detection as there's no PEN coming in from a far-away substation. The type B RCD is a bit of an angsty requirement. The fear is that the car may connect its battery directly across the incoming AC lines and send 400V DC back into the grid. While this in theory could happen (especially with a Tesla (S or X in Europe and all US models) which CAN connect its battery to the AC pins directly), it's not a fault that ever has happened as far as I know.
I can see why Tesla users would want the official charger as iPhone users probably want the official apple charger. However, all I want is something that works. Couldn't care less who makes it. Like the look of the Zappi but it is £850 after grant. Also, I guess a lot of people will be happy programming charging on their Tesla and monitoring it's state of charge on the Tesla app. It's useful to know how much electricity your car has taken to charge, but at the end of the day it is what it is. Knowing it won't change anything. Like filling up your car with petrol.
Having a cable heavy weight as a negative is really strange choice... It sounds like you just tried to find as many reasons as possible. The copper that gives its weight is where some of the cost comes from (look at the pure copper price/kg or heavy duty flexible cable price :) )
Putting aside what the regs. say about earthing methods. Surely were a failure of the supply neutral must be a very very rare occurrence in an urban situation. Also, wouldn’t every appliance in the district also become live to a greater or lesser degree ?
Type B or type A+EV. But there's only one model available: The Doepke DFS 4 EV. They'll trip on 30mA AC and pulsating DC faults (type A), additionally they'll trip on 6mA DC fault current. www.amazon.de/Doepke-FI-Schalter-040-4-Fehlerstrom-Schutzschalter-4014712215955/dp/B00O88HOUE/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=doepke+rcd&qid=1607198141&sr=8-1 Type B is more than 300€....
Thanks for the video. I agree that it could have been designed better, but you are missing a few points. First of all your cable is wrapped too tightly around the Wall Connector. Two times around and the adapter fits properly into the WC slot. Secondly, as an example, I had a problem that Tesla was able to fix remotely by installing an updated firmware directly into the WC, increasing the charge flow from 24 to 48amps. Cheers!
Does not houses in the UK with TN-C-S and TN-S have a local earth electrode around the house/building? Questioning why you installing earth electrode on the chargers.
Err the way I look at it you wouldn’t be plugging in till you need it , thus putting a lot of juice at any one time normally 40-50kw , so smart functions aren’t really needed, since on single phase that’s all night and a bit with a Tesla, if you wanted smart charger and or smart meter functionality you would use an omni, or a zappi the way I look at it if you were looking for a 3 phase charger you would go pod point or chargemaster or no clue then the Tesla charger
Hi Jordan, am no electrician but just looking at that charger compared to the Zappi, it's just so messy, untidy and cheap. Been watching your videos with interest including you changing your own house charger to the Tesla charger, and find them interesting and very informative. I was shouting at the screen don't do it....even for content lol. Cheers, Alex.
Question from a non electrician .. How does an earth rod protect you when the car is sitting on four rubber insulators? Do you not still get a jolt when you touch the car?
The earth rod connects to the cars metal work and means that the physical ground under your feet and the casing of the car are at the same potential so you won’t get a shock. If the car was connected to the PEN conductor of the house and that dropped out then the casing of the car could become live and as the ground is a different potential you would get a shock if you touched it.
@@artisanelectrics what happens inside the house if you have a PEN failure? Surely all your metalwork, radiators etc would become live. Thus being more dangerous than a car being live, which I presume anyone would unplug before getting in.?
Hi Jordan, I have a Tesla wall connector and I agree with you 100% and if I was going to redo the install I would go with a Zappi (or similar). The only advantage you didn't mention is when you come to the car in the morning you just have to push the button to release the charger rather than enter the car or use the app to unlock the charger port. If only Tesla would sell a battery operated button that could be fitted to any charger handle then that would be the best solution... Keep up the great videos...
www.evchargeking.com/en/tesla-charging-cables?pagenumber=1 sell cables with them in for the un-teathered and I think they a lead you could replace on the Zappi with one. I believe they also sell the button module itself. Not cheap though.
Type B RCD's are expensive...tell me about it. I found out the hard way when installing 3 Tesla wall stations and hoping to get away with 1 protecting all 3 units...NO, they need one each of course, and they were all three phase $$$$$$$ !!
That's the same with all Teslas and with the X and S you'll have the key fob on you anyway so if touching the flap doesn't work for whatever reason a long press on the rear part of the fob opens the charge port which really isn't much of an inconvenience either
So do you think some of these may have been installed cheaply by DIYers who omit the RCD B and PEN fault protection devices? That’s a bit scary, especially if they’re plugged in on the street.
i have a Zappi installed in Ireland and just open the back passenger door handle, (phone in pocket) that unlocks the model 3 and then press on the flap, about 5 seconds work. Question: what happens to the zappi if there is that earth fault? does it just shut down?
The only reason for this charger is the higher amperage. There are plenty of apps that show what you’ve spent in electricity and you can set the charge limit and rate from your phone.
Disappointed you didn't talk about charging rate. If one charger is 3 phase and the other is 1 phase, shouldn't one get twice the charging rate with the former?
Hi Jordan I have the V3 wall connector here in the USA has wifi to setup the amps - up to 60A breaker. unlike the 100A for prior, but we mostly do 48A charging at home in new model3 Y anyways also, the new cable is much thinner and lighter not sure if our grounded to elec panel setup here in the usa has same “shock risk”
Better to have the smarts in the EVSE than in the car. If you have limitations in the EVSE (like to not charge during a specified time of day), it will work with m other cars connecting to the EVSE.
Other videos you may like:
It Happened! Installing My Own Electric Vehicle Charger! ua-cam.com/video/3-HEKqeSrwk/v-deo.html
Nightmare Electric Vehicle Charging Install: ua-cam.com/video/wMvbnytEq3U/v-deo.html
Zappi Installation for E Golf: ua-cam.com/video/ObVxF7vQRaQ/v-deo.html
First, you have the UK/EU style car charge connectors, the CSS. Here in the US, they have the proprietary Tesla connector, which is locking. The primary function of the button is to unlock the connector. With the locking connector, nobody but you can unlock it when you are using a Supercharger. There are those who arrive to find all the chargers full and unplug someone so they can charge. The unlock button doesn't work unless the car is turned on. Our power is a little different here too. Most 240 volt applications here use 4 wire cables. L1, L2, neutral and earth ground. Here, when wiring the wall connector, we use 3 wires - L1, L2 and earth ground. Here, the potential between either L1 or L2 and neutral is 120 volts. Potential between L1 and L2 is 240 volts. We don't need neutral for this application. So, earth ground is available from our supply cable and a seperate ground stake is not needed.
"Where you can see me installing the pen fault protection device"....
Didn't Cory fit it?
It was the "royal me"
In the US a Tesla Wall Connector (like all level 2 charging, the Tesla device is not actually a charger, it's just a connector to line power, the charger is in the car itself) has a GFCI built in. I am not sure of the correct terminology in the UK but the US GFCI measures ground fault current (current flowing through your body to ground when touching the car) and instantly disconnects power if such a fault occurs. I would be surprised if the Tesla wall connectors sold in UK and EU would leave off the GFCI.
The cost, ease of installation and built in features of the Zappi far outweigh the 'ooh it looks nice' initial shine of the Tesla charger. Just paying for the name I'm afraid.
I recommend getting the Tesla key. Double press the middle button to unlock the car then hold the boot button to unlock the charge cable and remove it. It's totally reliable and a nicer experience than using the app or getting into the car to unlock the charge cable. Yes it's £150 but paired with a Zappi charger and the lack of costs getting separate consumer unit and earth rod the total price and experience will be better than having the Tesla charger installed. Thanks for making these video - I enjoy watching them!
3:33 from this point on all I could think was, THATS WHAT SHE SAID!
LOL !
In yesterday's video I gave you a week before going back to the Zappi,didn't expect it to be this quick to change...
Stuart Andrews Me too🤭
Well done for trying it for yourself
You forgot to say that they don’t comply with claiming the OLEV grant!
Ah yeah thanks 🙏
Think you said that in the install video
6:15 I don't understand why you might need a PEN fault detection device if exporting a TN-S earth to the charger. I installed a Tesla charger in July, using the network earth provided by Western Power as a conductor separate from the neutral.
I though you only had to worry about PEN faults on PME(TNCS) systems as the earth and neutral are combined.
I would love to have heard the price comparison comparing complete installation costs.
What do the button if do you have more as one Tesla? Open nearest or all or ... ?
How many Tesla charger do you can install at one UK house?
It looks the Zappi "see" how many power use and so do you can make party at home and charge all e-cars from your friends and your at same time.
BTW: Can Tesla make charge guests cars if you are not at home? I think Tesla know position and how many power consuming at charging - technically one of the typically smart home functions. Same do you do with pet door and pet chip or with door key and your kid. Normal cars have typical "comeing home"/"leave home" functions, aso.
Advantages of TWC
- good for 3 phase supplies
- port opening button
- load-sharing for two cars using communication link wire
Disadvantages
- no built in PEN failure protection, so needs rod or O-PEN device
- no built in DC sensitive RCD, so needs type B upstream
Safety systems aside... Ev.energy app is all you need, you don’t need a smart charge point, the app will control the car and tell it when to charge, the app will take advantage of Time Of Use tariffs and schedule your charge to be at the cheapest points in your tariff 👍
Thats nice for people with Tesla or other high end electric vehicles that have there own app and are connected to the internet, many cheaper ev dont have app and are not connected to the internet, so no way for EV.Energy to be able to connect to the car. Thats why smart chargers are important they have internet connection and become the point where EV.Energy can control. So its not a one size fits all, thats why there are both available in the marketplace.
There is one good reason you should never hand hold a video camera (other than for a 45 second news essential)
it makes viewers feel sick and will stop people watching...
with chargers - agree entirely.
Page 6 of the Tesla wall connector installation manual says "This Wall Connector has a ground monitoring circuit that continuously checks for the presence of a safe ground connection and automatically recovers from faults." Wouldn't this safeguard against a PEN fault?
I am in the United States with 240 V single phase. The charger claims that it has a ground fault interrupter and that a GFCI is not required. But, if in doubt, one could replace the breaker with a GFCI. They are $180, though. Your 3-phase cable is quite a lot thicker than our single phase version.
I'd say that using the button to stop charging and unlock the cable is more useful than using it to open the flap; otherwise you need to open the app on your phone or open the car to operate the touchscreen (waiting for it to wake up etc), which is much more time consuming. Sure, there is more work involved installing these devices but that's a one-off cost. I like how simple these are, with less to go wrong and no reliance on wifi and 'cloud' services.
I have a non tethered Zappi and the charging cable has a "Tesla button" on it, so it work like a Tesla WC.
Something to consider maybe?
That’s cool
Why not to buy pen fault detection device and install it for complete house installation? Whatever you explain about ev is apply to the house appliances like washing machine. Fridges etc. am i correct?
Thanks
I wonder what you did with the tesla charger after you took it off your wall.
Presume cable is heavy because it is three-phase? Isn’t the Tesla charger three-phase capable? Also, there is some smarter daisy-chaining functionality, sharing the overall load if you want more than one charger on a property isn’t there?
Can you deal with constructive criticism? It seems not!! You only reply to peeps bigging you up and agreeing with everything you say!! Shame, because I like your content.
Something I have not seen mentioned in any EV charge point video that I think is worth pointing out is that it is not permitted to install a single phase charging point, even one with built in pen fault detection such as the Zappi on one phase of a three phase installation.
Really? What Reg is that from? I’ve never heard that before. Reg number or reference please.
look at the second brick above the charger. looks like the tesla logo, spooky
I was thinking the same thing in the other video.
The charger comes with a free Tesla house brick that’s why
@@arod9998 yes and they come and deliver it the night before just in case anybody's filming the installation.
Dying laugh
Really appreciate it that, although you had some doubts about the product in the first place, you still installed it just to validate your opinion. Much appreciated! Very interesting to watch and hear your substantiated opinion.
750GBP for a Zappi? Looks like they're significantly cheaper in their home country.. I can't seem to find them below 1100 Euro (~1050GBP) on the mainland, and that's usually the versions without attached cables. I wanted a Zappi, but based on price I went for an ABB TerraAC instead. Also Zappi isn't terribly clear about which of their various attachments you need for which cases and how to set them up. As you're an EV expert and Zappi fan, perhaps you could spend a video on those boxes in detail?
I have installed EV chargers in the US for about 5 years now and I can see there are many differences in code requirements between the two nations. First of all the way it is wired up here would be a violation in the states. Second no copper rod needed in the states, just a grounding conductor directly from the origin panel. Third, no RCD protection required (which sounds to me like the equivalent of Ground Fault Circuit Interruptors).
Also installing wall connectors on the exterior, although possible, is rare. We usually install them right in the garage or carport although it is outdoor rated.
As for your issue with the cord there are many different cable dispensers available on the market here perhaps they haven't made it over.
You are missing the, in my opinion, best feature of the tesla "button"; sure it opens the flap, that can be done easely - the BIG advantage is that it also can be held down and release the charger again. This is something that can only be done awkardly by opening the app; waiting for the app to wake the car; "stop charging" - "unlock charger" - or to get in the car, click "release charger" and get out, remove it and so on; its MUCH smoother to just hold down the button for a few sec. till it releases.
The perfect review I was looking form a guy who knows his stuff and can recommend something that actually works.
If you want to know energy usage doesn’t your car tell you that anyway? Also isn’t charging all controlled through the car and Tesla app? Doesn’t seem like there’s much point in actually having a ‘smart’ charger.
What about charging speed?
Elon watches video. Tesla buys myenergi. Tesla label on front. Job done.
I'm pondering how the Tesla charge flap opener works, has nobody worked it out and find a way to add it to a third party charger?
WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO LIVE AT THE TOP OF TOWER BLOCKS, OR TERRACED STREETS WITH ONLY ON STREET PARKING AND YOU CAN'T GET YOUR CAR LESS THAN 100 YARDS FROM YOUR FRONT DOOR?
Definitely put the zappi back in. They are Much better. Definitely get that Tesla charger out.
Yep!
Zappi far superior, theTesla is rather agricultural in comparision...
You can get non oem type 2 cables with the tesla botton, so you can match that to a charger with type 2 outlet.
I compared prices in norway (parts only) 22kw, tesla charger 5000kr+ chint earthfault protection 1500kr. The zappy is 10.000kr + cable 2500kr. So basicly twice the cost.
Another thing, the waterproofing over time, is not superb on the tesla plug.
Don't the new regulations stop you using an earth rod now for chargers ??. Watching the eefix videos they say no earth rod .even more confusing.
It’s not recommended to install an earth rod
I agree as a simple to install option the Zappi is very good. However the issues we’ve had with the internal RCD tripping makes it unreliable. What is your experience and that of your customers?
Hi Artisan,
Thanks for creating this video. However, the Wall Connector has an internal circuit that verifies the presence of the earth ground. If the ground isn't present or if the test circuit itself fails, the charger will not operate, thus providing additional safety, overcoming the concerns you mention. Am I overlooking something?
Well, that's simiple... you need a Powerwall and a Tesla Gateway... then you can monitor all that stuff! Of course I'm being snarky, but that said, the Tesla Powerwall App is pretty great... Totally agree about the "cable management"... you'd think the designers @ Tesla would've come up with something slicker.
The design goal 10 years ago was to make a wall box that doesn't cost as much as the car...
but does it charge faster/better?
The Tesla charger does not charge faster than any other brand. Speed is related to the electrical connection. More specifically on how big the fuse is behind the charger.
When you sell this on ebay, link item description to this video 😂
Will do!
Question: I want to install my charger outside but I’m afraid someone would steal it or charge their own car while I’m way.
Sounds like a real pain to fit the Tesla charger due to the extra bits needed. Do all chargers need the extra earthing etc?
I am going to get a Volvo ev the charger that Volvo gives with the cat is it as useless and dangerous as the Tesla ?? Any help please
My thoughts exactly, at least you put the Tesla wall connector in, and everyone could see what was involved in installing it, in a safe manner within the regs.
For me the Zappi wins hands down every time. Thanks for sharing.
Is this a GEN -2 ? the new one is the GEN -3, faster charger, can buy one interest free for 18 months in the USA.
The Tesla wall connector was designed to fit many markets, not just the UK. Which is why it lacks certain features when compared to the zappi, which was built with UK regulations and wiring practice in mind. So the Zappi will of course win here. As to the zappi app... If one needs scheduling, then, as long as either the car or the EVSE can do it... it's really immaterial; beyond that, it's just down to personal preference in gadgets.
isn’t the only real benefit the remote control to open the tesla flap? It is something I’d like on other cars/chargers - to be able to plug in/remove the cable without needing to get in the car. But the cons clearly outweigh that.
I think a lot of subscribers were expecting this video...maybe not quite so fast though 😂
How did u get that in the uk I’m trying to get one and it’s only in dollars
The cost of the Tesla charger is included with the purchase of the New Car so when you install the additional RCD and PEN system that balance out the overall cost of the electrical installation
Not true you have to buy the Tesla charger it doesn’t come with the car
@@artisanelectrics Okay thanks for clarifying that I have been misled
Separate video needed on earthing discussion with some diagrams would be really useful I think.
Totally agree. I Installed a Zappi and sold the wall connector that came with the car (Australia) on eBay. I would like a button though. Myenergi should have the Tesla button as an option.
How often do PEN faults occur? I was a highway engineer and when we went through a cable that was that - flash - bang - wallop - power off, so where else would a fault develop? The chance of just breaking a PEN through excavation work is practically nil. As a non sparky who has just bought an electric car I have been clueing up on the regs and it seems clear that most problems could occur due to PME systems failing, so is it a bad system? Do they often fail or are the regs too over cautious? After watching John Wards presentation on EV charging points I am beginning to wonder if I should have stuck to good old petrol.
It’s more to do with old cables that have worn out over time, they reckon about 400 per year or something like that there is a document stating exact figures but I can’t remember off the top of my head
Yes it's the low hundreds per year, I've seen that document too.
It's probably not the liklihood but the danger when it occurs.
Large metal body , outside, possibly wet etc
PEN faults, although they still happen are a thing of the past. Look back to the beginning of PME or TN-C-S, it was a 240V overhead supply, rather than running 3 conductors, they got away with running 2, bonding the neutral conductor every 6th pole to earth with an earth electrode. Todays PME is totally different using CNE cable feeding properties either over ground or more commonly underground. The days of a neutral conductor breaking without shorting to phase are few and far between
Interesting thanks for sharing
My electric car is on order.
I've done my research into what the home chargers look like - and I've come across the Andersen. From an astetics perspective, this is the one I want to go for. I have a couple of questions.
1. Does it stand up from a protection and functionality point of view versus pod point or Zappi?
2. If so - should I get it installed by Andersen themselves or would it be cheaper for a qualified electrician to install for me?
Thanks
With TNS, I really don't understand the risk analysis of the car going live. Can anyone explain this to me?
My understanding is that the tns supply might not be a true tns if a cable repair has been made .
@@samuelchamberlain2584 I guess it is for the situation when a TNS property later becomes TNCS. Why has TNCS been permitted when it is so dangerous? How can anybody respect the regulations when such a gaping fundamental cost saving exercise has been performed at the expense of people's lives? Also, why isn't charging your car from your 13A plug banned? Are these adapters isolated supplies while proper EV charging points are not?
Check this video for info on modern pen conductor joint system
ua-cam.com/video/rks7R936H-E/v-deo.html
@@samuelchamberlain2584 Thank you! Is there an equivalent for how a TNS repair is made? Still trying to assess the realities of PEN faults with a TNS system re EV charging. Also, in that video, I didn't understand why replacing copper with brass would prevent galvanic corrosion with aluminium. I guess the assumption is that the moisture needed for such corrosion would only come along the copper conductor and there would not be enough to reach the aluminium part of the clamp but I don't know.
Put the zappi back in and nick the tesla charging cable so you got the button ;-)
Are there any other regulations to follow after or before having a charger fitted thanks
How do you tell if it’s a v3 charger or v2?
V3 isn’t available yet in the UK but looks different to this V2 one
A very quick question. How common are PEN faults. I'm quite interested to know. I live in the countryside and have replaced the house ground spike and added ones for the two workshops which share power from the house through their own RCD protected CUs.
Around 300 hundred a year
Do you/should you do a PAT on an electric car?
It's a portable appliance, albeit a slightly odd one.
No I don’t think so
@@artisanelectrics I wonder if something like that should be a part of an EV MOT.
So long as the earth bond from the car's body back to the charger's RCD is OK then the charger should notice anything wrong.
You can easily imagine the charge cable being damaged as it's plugged and unplugged a lot more than most appliances and lives outside. The earth bonding inside the vehicle is also subjected to a lot more shocks and vibrations than most things.
Tools tend to be double insulated but cars aren't.
I tested a Tesla once (more as a "I wonder if" than anything) and it failed on insulation resistance, which probably isn't surprising!
Haha, brilliant!
Do not buy a Tesla home charging station. I bought one I've had issues with it Tesla won't help. I've had four electricians look at it to make sure all the wiring is correct they all say it is. I had it disconnected brought it to the dealership where I bought my car and they looked at me and said there's nothing we can do about it here. I asked if they had a number I could call or an email address for about it and they shrugged their shoulders and said no. The one Tesla employee looked at me and said they have a lot of issues with the Tesla home charging stations and he would suggest not buying another one.
Don't have many choices here (US) because they use the proprietary (much smaller) plugs here in the states, however with expensive adapters you could use a 3rd party one. With the 3rd gen here you get WiFi integration and load sharing if you have multiple Teslas. However its like Apple you have to get all their products to integrate together, car, charger, solar panels, battery packs etc. But if I were in the UK, I believe that the Zappi would be the one I would get as well.
I've recently found your channel and as a electrician who's not looked into EV Charging (Yet) well apart from here I've found your info to be really interesting. I see it as a part of our industry that's going to exponentially increase over the next decade.
ThNks for watching!
Imagine 60% of housing has off street parking and at some point every house will need a charger installed! That's a lot of work for electricians!
Probably it's a five core 6mm² and two smaller signal wires inside for the communication between car and charger. This is what I got here too. And the PEN won't fail by itself, it's mostly caused by construction work out on the street. The problem in the UK is, mostly single phase in domestics. On a three-phase installation it is much easier to detect a PEN fault by monitoring the voltages between the lines, between the single lines and the PEN. The voltages between the lines and the PEN should be 230V +/-10%, the voltages between the lines should be 400V. In case of a broken PEN the voltages between a line and a neutral will move arround between 0 and 400V, depending on the impedance of the connected appliances. For example:
A heater with 3680W (14.4 Ohms) is connected to a circuit fed by L1, a soldering iron with 20W (2645 Ohms) is connected to a circuit on L2. They're both connected with the PEN on one pole, the other pole is connected to the line L1 or L2. The PEN is the center point of this circuitry. But if the PEN breaks, the appliances are resistors connected in series between 400V and create a voltage divider. Which voltages you get depend on the ratios of the resistance of the connected appliances. In my example the heater will "see" 2.2V, and the soldering iron 397.8V. This will be the same in the UK, because below the streets are three-phase cables, but the houses of the streets are distributed evenly on all three phases. This means not only your appliances count in. Also what your neighbours, which are connected to the same damaged cable, have connected to their installation.
This can also happen in a TN-S system when the neutral breaks. But in that case metal housings of class 1 appliances would not become live, that's actually a specialty of the TN-C(-S) system.
We don't have to worry about that in the US. The builders know how to wire a house.
I’ve seen a few of these destinations chargers about at hotels, are you saying they are a hazard potential! as I don’t know if good practice has been followed. Why would the regulations allow theses to be sold if so much extra has to be done to make them safe, it very worrying.
Does the zappi have its own meter so you could see how much its using so you could reimburse the bill payer for example?
I really enjoy your channel, even though I am in the US. It does unfortunately sound like the Tesla wall connector is really not good for the UK. I can see that. In the US, where I am (specifically in Chicago), I think it doesn't have many of those obvious downsides compared to other units. I personally don't even use a wall connector for my Model 3. I use a mobile connector, plugged into an exterior 240 volt (50 amp) outlet or a 240 volt (20 amp) outlet in the garage. After paying for the car, I prefer to not spend an extra $500 to charge the car. In Chicago, metallic electrical conduit is required, so everything is generally grounded by default, and Ground Fault protection (I forgot what it is called in the UK) would be part of the circuit breaker in the breaker box (consumer unit?), on both legs of the 240 volt circuit. For new homes here, I think Arc Fault protection is also now required (not sure what that would be called in the UK). While we do have a smart electric meter with an electric plan that has rates (tariffs?) that can vary hourly, they are so predictable that setting the car to have a fixed time to charge at night is sufficient where we live.
For good or for bad, it does appear possible that the Tesla wall connector was designed for the US market, and maybe specifically for the California/Oregon market initially. A lot of the really cool EVs and types of charging equipment are not even sold in the US yet, as far as I can tell. When wall units (that have probably $20 worth of parts in them) are sold for less than $100, they will be more attractive to me. :)
The typical US installation uses a split-phase transformer local to the property. There the locally created N is earthed once to a local PE, so basically matches a TT installation with no need for a PEN fault detection as there's no PEN coming in from a far-away substation.
The type B RCD is a bit of an angsty requirement. The fear is that the car may connect its battery directly across the incoming AC lines and send 400V DC back into the grid. While this in theory could happen (especially with a Tesla (S or X in Europe and all US models) which CAN connect its battery to the AC pins directly), it's not a fault that ever has happened as far as I know.
Does the Gen3 have any safety benefits/improvements over the current Gen2?
I can see why Tesla users would want the official charger as iPhone users probably want the official apple charger. However, all I want is something that works. Couldn't care less who makes it.
Like the look of the Zappi but it is £850 after grant. Also, I guess a lot of people will be happy programming charging on their Tesla and monitoring it's state of charge on the Tesla app. It's useful to know how much electricity your car has taken to charge, but at the end of the day it is what it is. Knowing it won't change anything. Like filling up your car with petrol.
Having a cable heavy weight as a negative is really strange choice... It sounds like you just tried to find as many reasons as possible.
The copper that gives its weight is where some of the cost comes from (look at the pure copper price/kg or heavy duty flexible cable price :) )
Putting aside what the regs. say about earthing methods. Surely were a failure of the supply neutral must be a very very rare occurrence in an urban situation. Also, wouldn’t every appliance in the district also become live to a greater or lesser degree ?
Thought you needed a type A rcd for ev charges?
Tesla one needs a Type B
@@artisanelectrics And that's why we stick with zappi, so much simpler
Type B or type A+EV. But there's only one model available: The Doepke DFS 4 EV. They'll trip on 30mA AC and pulsating DC faults (type A), additionally they'll trip on 6mA DC fault current.
www.amazon.de/Doepke-FI-Schalter-040-4-Fehlerstrom-Schutzschalter-4014712215955/dp/B00O88HOUE/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=doepke+rcd&qid=1607198141&sr=8-1
Type B is more than 300€....
Is the cable heavier to suit America and the lower voltage the run at?
It's a three phase cable so more conductors. Very few properties have a 3 phase supply in the UK unless it's a business.
I worked on an EVSE and we had to implement both ground fault detection and RCD, and it was a pain in the arse to engineer.. but definitely safer
Thanks for the video. I agree that it could have been designed better, but you are missing a few points. First of all your cable is wrapped too tightly around the Wall Connector. Two times around and the adapter fits properly into the WC slot. Secondly, as an example, I had a problem that Tesla was able to fix remotely by installing an updated firmware directly into the WC, increasing the charge flow from 24 to 48amps. Cheers!
Doesn't the car have it's own protection so pen faults wont actually result in a live car body
What was the reason for replacing the Zappi?
To try out the Tesla EVSE so that he can advise from experience rather than just from what he has read.
@@stupot_64 which he explained in the first 30 seconds of the video :-)
@@colinnich I know.
So if your house has a TT system and you protect the charger with a Type B RCBO?
Why has Tesla not added PEN fault detection 😔
Does not houses in the UK with TN-C-S and TN-S have a local earth electrode around the house/building? Questioning why you installing earth electrode on the chargers.
No houses don’t usually have their own earth electrode
Err the way I look at it you wouldn’t be plugging in till you need it , thus putting a lot of juice at any one time normally 40-50kw , so smart functions aren’t really needed, since on single phase that’s all night and a bit with a Tesla, if you wanted smart charger and or smart meter functionality you would use an omni, or a zappi the way I look at it if you were looking for a 3 phase charger you would go pod point or chargemaster or no clue then the Tesla charger
Hi Jordan, am no electrician but just looking at that charger compared to the Zappi, it's just so messy, untidy and cheap. Been watching your videos with interest including you changing your own house charger to the Tesla charger, and find them interesting and very informative. I was shouting at the screen don't do it....even for content lol. Cheers, Alex.
Haha thanks for watching!
Another huge problem with the Tesla charger is that it’s not waterproof, only water resistant for light rain
Question from a non electrician .. How does an earth rod protect you when the car is sitting on four rubber insulators? Do you not still get a jolt when you touch the car?
The earth rod connects to the cars metal work and means that the physical ground under your feet and the casing of the car are at the same potential so you won’t get a shock. If the car was connected to the PEN conductor of the house and that dropped out then the casing of the car could become live and as the ground is a different potential you would get a shock if you touched it.
@@artisanelectrics what happens inside the house if you have a PEN failure? Surely all your metalwork, radiators etc would become live. Thus being more dangerous than a car being live, which I presume anyone would unplug before getting in.?
@@daveknight7963 Yes, everything will become live, so you have nothing to touch that is at a different potential.
Hi Jordan, I have a Tesla wall connector and I agree with you 100% and if I was going to redo the install I would go with a Zappi (or similar). The only advantage you didn't mention is when you come to the car in the morning you just have to push the button to release the charger rather than enter the car or use the app to unlock the charger port.
If only Tesla would sell a battery operated button that could be fitted to any charger handle then that would be the best solution...
Keep up the great videos...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
www.evchargeking.com/en/tesla-charging-cables?pagenumber=1 sell cables with them in for the un-teathered and I think they a lead you could replace on the Zappi with one. I believe they also sell the button module itself. Not cheap though.
Interesting. Thanks for the info, I'll have to look into this more
Type B RCD's are expensive...tell me about it. I found out the hard way when installing 3 Tesla wall stations and hoping to get away with 1 protecting all 3 units...NO, they need one each of course, and they were all three phase $$$$$$$ !!
The button on the charge cable isn't even all that important - if you touch the flap (on the 3 at least), it will open if the car is unlocked.
That's the same with all Teslas and with the X and S you'll have the key fob on you anyway so if touching the flap doesn't work for whatever reason a long press on the rear part of the fob opens the charge port which really isn't much of an inconvenience either
So do you think some of these may have been installed cheaply by DIYers who omit the RCD B and PEN fault protection devices? That’s a bit scary, especially if they’re plugged in on the street.
Yeah I think so! Scary right
The Tesla Wallonnector gen 3 Does have a GFCI
Cool hope they bring it out here soon
i have a Zappi installed in Ireland and just open the back passenger door handle, (phone in pocket) that unlocks the model 3 and then press on the flap, about 5 seconds work. Question: what happens to the zappi if there is that earth fault? does it just shut down?
It isolates all three conductors (line, neutral and earth).
The only reason for this charger is the higher amperage. There are plenty of apps that show what you’ve spent in electricity and you can set the charge limit and rate from your phone.
The newer Gen 3 has built in RCD protection
Disappointed you didn't talk about charging rate. If one charger is 3 phase and the other is 1 phase, shouldn't one get twice the charging rate with the former?
They are both only single phase as most UK domestic properties only have a single phase supply.
@@artisanelectrics
Thank you for the response. I live in the US, specifically Michigan, so I didn't know this.
Hi Jordan
I have the V3 wall connector here in the USA
has wifi to setup the amps - up to 60A breaker.
unlike the 100A for prior, but we mostly do 48A charging at home in new model3 Y anyways
also, the new cable is much thinner and lighter
not sure if our grounded to elec panel setup here in the usa has same “shock risk”
Better to have the smarts in the EVSE than in the car.
If you have limitations in the EVSE (like to not charge during a specified time of day), it will work with m other cars connecting to the EVSE.