Really excited to have found this excellent series discussing one of my favorite artists Alex Toth, thanks for posting. JP Lepm is missed, I was fortunate and got to meet him once and get a convention sketch from him. It was a great experience.
A brilliant artist talking about another brilliant artist. Thank you very much Paul. Instant sub. I wish I had a chance to take Jack Potter, I was too late.
Thank you for this video. From listening/watching these videos, so far, and working on my fundamentals a bit more (for the scaffolding for the final art), I finally feel like I "get it" a bit better now and can see what is necessary now in my art. Also I noticed that Toth had a clear design compositional awareness from osmosis it seems of gestalt principals but I don't know if he knew them by that name.
I'm really glad to hear it, Kenneth, the vids have been beneficial, and that you're making progress! Not sure if Toth was aware of gestalt principles, but it wouldn't surprise me of he had been. Howard Chaykin has discussed Toth's understanding and application of industrial design, and gestalt may be a part of what he meant by that. I'm convinced Toth was also well influenced by the Famous Artists materials, and perhaps gestalt is also and element of those lessons/studies. Or maybe it was partially instinct with him!
Meant to be! It's a beautiful book. I've not been able to get my hands on the french B&W edition of the book - I think they sold out quickly after JP's passing...
@@comixcrush Last night I was sitting here Drawing Star Trek comics, listening to 2 scholars talking about things I thought only I paid attention to-- the knowledge and insight on display was invigorating and inspiring- looking forward to more.again, thank you--
I did not get my hands on it, but have it in the "Balck & White" book. Thanks for commissioning the piece and publishing it, Mark! I show OoLaLa to my MCAD students and have them draw comics "to-size" and also with thicker markers/tools. It's a winner, fun, and instructive. Happy birthday!
@@comixcrush You should find a copy of Dragon's Teeth. It has an analysis of a Steranko short, with Jim kibitzing along. It also features stellar work by Tony Salmons, Rick Geary, Frank Cirocco, Ken Macklin, and Lela Dowling. If you can't find a copy I'd be glad to send you one.
Your thoughts on Kirby... yeah... those are EXACTLY why I thought in theory Toth taking over from Kirby on Uncanny X-Men #12... it should have worked. He would have been the prefect permanent or at least semi-permanent replacement. But I wonder why it didn't.
What'd I say about Kirby? I don't recall... The main reason Toth didn't get more Marvel work was 'cause Stan didn't really Care for Toth's stuff (despite a beautiful 4-pag romance story they did together in the '50s - reprinted in Genius, Illustrated). Toth was not a Marvel-dynamic guy, but had dynamics all his own, which I generally prefer. Though I think there's crossover in some qualities/elements of the work of Kirby and Toth , their collaborations, or near-collaborations don't work that well, to me - on that X-Men job, and Toth's FF cartoon designs aren't among my faves (though the Skrulls are great). Maybe Kirby was in Toth's head a bit, maybe they had different strengths and approaches. It's not as severe, though, as Toth later describing as their approaches having nothing in common. They both did decent work on Thundarr :D
You said something about how, at least later in his career when Kirby was going through 'weird phase' while visual often difference there was some similarities the way they handled designs. Maybe because I don't have the Master Masterwork... but I think the issue works. But then again, being a cheapskate I didn't see the point at the time of paying $25 (or $12.50 at the discount bin at a comic show) for 12 issues when I could get the Marvel Essentials printing from the same dealer for $8 for 24 issues. Even in the bear minimum B and W the essentials offered, it might have looked better than the color version. (That's another thing Toth and Kirby have in common. Unless Kirby was doing one of his collages. Those are hit or miss in black and white.) I've often thought Stan Lee's real talent wasn't as a writer. I mean, he was pretty good at that but his real strength was as an editor. Part of doing that well is recognizing top talent. If you look at the credits Toth did at his brief stint at Marvel, they all have one thing in common. He was penciling over layouts by Kirby on X-Men and Larry Lieber on Rawhide Kid. It is really hard to get a penciller doing their best work following someone else's layout. Especially someone Toth who belongs up there with Kirby in terms of just how amazing a storyteller they could be. Really, it'd be like if you get Freddie Mercury over to your house and instead of having him sing Bohemian Rhapsody or Flash Gordon... having him sing Beatles songs. Yeah, I'm sure he could do something interesting with say Nowhere Man or Fool on the Hill. .. it'd be a lot better than it had any right to be... but it would never be truly great. Now, if Lee had trusted Toth's abilities to convey a story to the same extent he could say... Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko (when those two were on speaking terms anyway), John Romita, or Gene Colan... well... imagine what that would have been like. I mean, as you said, Toth liked to wander but I bet we would have gotten maybe five or six really great X-Men comics.
@@jessewilley531 Ah, yes, I think Kirby was an incredible force of dynamism and imaginative creativity, his mid-'60s stuff was tight and wrote the book on the Westerm superhero genre, but as wonky as I found his '70s material, in many ways it's what I like to look at most - highly stylized, featuring patterns, power, abstraction and blackspotting. Some of these attributes are found in Toth's work, as well, albeit from a different angle. Sorry, I find their X-Men collab awkward. Toth is always best when left to his own devices. Something Lee wasn't going to allow. I find Lee's greatest strength is as a pitch man, which is valuable. A half dozen Toth X-Men comics would be fun, but we'll have to See them in our Mind's Eye.
@@comixcrush I kind of think Kirby saw that X-Men, or at least X-Meh as he and Lee were doing it, just wasn't working. (You can't say X-Men didn't work. It was just maybe a decade ahead of its time as Wein, Cockrum and Claremont turned it into one of Marvel's biggest sellers for more than two decades. It would have been Marvel's best seller of the 70s, if it weren't for Steve Gerber's Howard the Duck.) I read X-Men making the jump to monthly had more to do with the number of titles they could release monthly getting raised more than anything else. That might have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Kirby was doing wonders on lots of other titles. (Fantastic Four, I think he was still on Thor at that point) and just didn't have time for a concept he was clearly bored with. I like the X-Men issue, but I've always liked the original design for Juggernaut. It's one of those super villain costumes that while there have been attempts to update and change it over the years, they never lasted because the original is just so perfect. Is it a little silly looking? Maybe. But something about it just works. I love Kirby's Fantastic Four work. Up until maybe the last year or so of it is just amazing. And even Kirby's off days near the end of the run were better than most people at Marvel at the time firing on all cylinders. But New Gods, Mister Miracle, Forever People and yes, Jimmy Olsen are some of his weirdest and most wonderful super hero work Kirby ever did. I haven't read his work on The Demon but I know the local library has it and I plan to get to it. Most of my exposure to Alex Toth comes from his animation work. I was a teenager in the era where Cartoon Network was pretty much replaying everything in the HB and Ruby Spears vault. So, I got to see a lot of Space Ghost, Blue Falcon and Dynomutt, Birdman and the Galaxy Trio, Super Friends, etc. Side note: Is it just me or did every HB show in the 70s that wasn't a funny animal show have either a dog or a monkey. (Given that he's called a Dogasaurus, I count Dino as a 'dog'.)
@@jessewilley531 Yeah, X-Men was a decade early, as you say. Even the gorgeous Neal Adams run didn't sell. Strong concept, enhanced and found its time/place. One can't mention the growth of the title without the contributions of Byrne, in my view, but X-Men got even bigger after he left. A lot of superhero stuff is silly, and that's a big part of its charm. Dogs & monkeys, yeah - but don't forget Godzooky! Do check out more of Toth's comic book work, more to him that character design and animation.
RIP JP Leon! Really Great artist.
Almost made it to 50😔
@@Hchris101 So wish he'd had many more...
RIP John Paul leon. This was a great show. I wonder how He was doing during this interview : ( Great podcast man, nice listen during drawing time!
Glad you like the discussion, Miklós!
I think he said was in remission again, then.
Stupid cancer.
What a piece of history. Thanks for getting this interview on the record. We're richer for it.
Amazing interview man. This video is a gem for us artists! RIP Jhon
Glad you found it and liked it, Lucas. I'm very pleased to have talked and recorded with JP. Hope you like the other episodes.
Really excited to have found this excellent series discussing one of my favorite artists Alex Toth, thanks for posting. JP Lepm is missed, I was fortunate and got to meet him once and get a convention sketch from him. It was a great experience.
Difficult to find a nicer and more talented guy than JP. Glad you like the program. Hope you like the other episodes. Toth is TOPS :D
Great to listening JP León's troughs on Toth´s work. And about his process,Photo references and page construction.
Paul, So great you captured this with John Paul.
I'm grateful that we had a chance to talk, and to share it with everyone.
Great interview. He will definitely be missed but his legacy is immense just like Toth.
Thanks. You said it. I'm glad to have spent time with him and have this discussion on record.
No. Not as prolific.
@@rockon8174 didn't mean he was on Toth's same level, but still highly influential among a lot of artists
A brilliant artist talking about another brilliant artist. Thank you very much Paul. Instant sub. I wish I had a chance to take Jack Potter, I was too late.
You're very kind. Thanx much! Sorry you missed Potter.
Fantastic! Love listening to JPL's thought processes
RIP John Paul Leon...Can't believe it
Great idea for a channel, just all things Toth, and this was a great discussion with great examples.
Thanks much, DJ. Pleased you like it. More episodes around the corner...!
Thank you for this video. From listening/watching these videos, so far, and working on my fundamentals a bit more (for the scaffolding for the final art), I finally feel like I "get it" a bit better now and can see what is necessary now in my art.
Also I noticed that Toth had a clear design compositional awareness from osmosis it seems of gestalt principals but I don't know if he knew them by that name.
I'm really glad to hear it, Kenneth, the vids have been beneficial, and that you're making progress!
Not sure if Toth was aware of gestalt principles, but it wouldn't surprise me of he had been. Howard Chaykin has discussed Toth's understanding and application of industrial design, and gestalt may be a part of what he meant by that. I'm convinced Toth was also well influenced by the Famous Artists materials, and perhaps gestalt is also and element of those lessons/studies. Or maybe it was partially instinct with him!
@@comixcrush I agree. It did look like he used a lot of figure ground relation ships and continuation for the direction flow for the eye.
Coincidentally I just read Creature of the Night last week (I acquired it from The Exchange), unaware that I’d be watching this video today!!
Meant to be! It's a beautiful book. I've not been able to get my hands on the french B&W edition of the book - I think they sold out quickly after JP's passing...
Thanks for this--
You bet, Greg! More to come...
@@comixcrush Last night I was sitting here Drawing Star Trek comics, listening to 2 scholars talking about things I thought only I paid attention to-- the knowledge and insight on display was invigorating and inspiring- looking forward to more.again, thank you--
@@gregscott2298 Very kind, Greg, thanks. Glad you found the discussion of value. You're not alone!
What a nice birthday present! Did you see this in its original publication, Dragon's Teeth #1?
I did not get my hands on it, but have it in the "Balck & White" book. Thanks for commissioning the piece and publishing it, Mark! I show OoLaLa to my MCAD students and have them draw comics "to-size" and also with thicker markers/tools. It's a winner, fun, and instructive. Happy birthday!
@@comixcrush You should find a copy of Dragon's Teeth. It has an analysis of a Steranko short, with Jim kibitzing along. It also features stellar work by Tony Salmons, Rick Geary, Frank Cirocco, Ken Macklin, and Lela Dowling. If you can't find a copy I'd be glad to send you one.
@@markclegg1491 Gosh, the cover sure looks familiar. Maybe I have it, after all - I'll have to check in my storage...
Fantastic episode!
Thanks so much. I miss JP, but grateful we got a chance to chat Toth and record it for posterity.
@@comixcrush It was awesome! To hear his thoughts on Toth and his approach to his own work. You did a great job 👏 👍
@@beyondthebleed2913 Thanx much!
RIP Leon 🙏🏼
dont forget his work on STATIC
Rip John Paul Leon
Your thoughts on Kirby... yeah... those are EXACTLY why I thought in theory Toth taking over from Kirby on Uncanny X-Men #12... it should have worked. He would have been the prefect permanent or at least semi-permanent replacement. But I wonder why it didn't.
What'd I say about Kirby? I don't recall...
The main reason Toth didn't get more Marvel work was 'cause Stan didn't really Care for Toth's stuff (despite a beautiful 4-pag romance story they did together in the '50s - reprinted in Genius, Illustrated). Toth was not a Marvel-dynamic guy, but had dynamics all his own, which I generally prefer. Though I think there's crossover in some qualities/elements of the work of Kirby and Toth , their collaborations, or near-collaborations don't work that well, to me - on that X-Men job, and Toth's FF cartoon designs aren't among my faves (though the Skrulls are great). Maybe Kirby was in Toth's head a bit, maybe they had different strengths and approaches. It's not as severe, though, as Toth later describing as their approaches having nothing in common.
They both did decent work on Thundarr :D
You said something about how, at least later in his career when Kirby was going through 'weird phase' while visual often difference there was some similarities the way they handled designs.
Maybe because I don't have the Master Masterwork... but I think the issue works. But then again, being a cheapskate I didn't see the point at the time of paying $25 (or $12.50 at the discount bin at a comic show) for 12 issues when I could get the Marvel Essentials printing from the same dealer for $8 for 24 issues. Even in the bear minimum B and W the essentials offered, it might have looked better than the color version. (That's another thing Toth and Kirby have in common. Unless Kirby was doing one of his collages. Those are hit or miss in black and white.)
I've often thought Stan Lee's real talent wasn't as a writer. I mean, he was pretty good at that but his real strength was as an editor. Part of doing that well is recognizing top talent. If you look at the credits Toth did at his brief stint at Marvel, they all have one thing in common. He was penciling over layouts by Kirby on X-Men and Larry Lieber on Rawhide Kid. It is really hard to get a penciller doing their best work following someone else's layout. Especially someone Toth who belongs up there with Kirby in terms of just how amazing a storyteller they could be. Really, it'd be like if you get Freddie Mercury over to your house and instead of having him sing Bohemian Rhapsody or Flash Gordon... having him sing Beatles songs. Yeah, I'm sure he could do something interesting with say Nowhere Man or Fool on the Hill. .. it'd be a lot better than it had any right to be... but it would never be truly great.
Now, if Lee had trusted Toth's abilities to convey a story to the same extent he could say... Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko (when those two were on speaking terms anyway), John Romita, or Gene Colan... well... imagine what that would have been like. I mean, as you said, Toth liked to wander but I bet we would have gotten maybe five or six really great X-Men comics.
@@jessewilley531 Ah, yes, I think Kirby was an incredible force of dynamism and imaginative creativity, his mid-'60s stuff was tight and wrote the book on the Westerm superhero genre, but as wonky as I found his '70s material, in many ways it's what I like to look at most - highly stylized, featuring patterns, power, abstraction and blackspotting. Some of these attributes are found in Toth's work, as well, albeit from a different angle.
Sorry, I find their X-Men collab awkward. Toth is always best when left to his own devices. Something Lee wasn't going to allow.
I find Lee's greatest strength is as a pitch man, which is valuable.
A half dozen Toth X-Men comics would be fun, but we'll have to See them in our Mind's Eye.
@@comixcrush I kind of think Kirby saw that X-Men, or at least X-Meh as he and Lee were doing it, just wasn't working. (You can't say X-Men didn't work. It was just maybe a decade ahead of its time as Wein, Cockrum and Claremont turned it into one of Marvel's biggest sellers for more than two decades. It would have been Marvel's best seller of the 70s, if it weren't for Steve Gerber's Howard the Duck.) I read X-Men making the jump to monthly had more to do with the number of titles they could release monthly getting raised more than anything else. That might have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Kirby was doing wonders on lots of other titles. (Fantastic Four, I think he was still on Thor at that point) and just didn't have time for a concept he was clearly bored with.
I like the X-Men issue, but I've always liked the original design for Juggernaut. It's one of those super villain costumes that while there have been attempts to update and change it over the years, they never lasted because the original is just so perfect. Is it a little silly looking? Maybe. But something about it just works.
I love Kirby's Fantastic Four work. Up until maybe the last year or so of it is just amazing. And even Kirby's off days near the end of the run were better than most people at Marvel at the time firing on all cylinders. But New Gods, Mister Miracle, Forever People and yes, Jimmy Olsen are some of his weirdest and most wonderful super hero work Kirby ever did. I haven't read his work on The Demon but I know the local library has it and I plan to get to it.
Most of my exposure to Alex Toth comes from his animation work. I was a teenager in the era where Cartoon Network was pretty much replaying everything in the HB and Ruby Spears vault. So, I got to see a lot of Space Ghost, Blue Falcon and Dynomutt, Birdman and the Galaxy Trio, Super Friends, etc.
Side note: Is it just me or did every HB show in the 70s that wasn't a funny animal show have either a dog or a monkey. (Given that he's called a Dogasaurus, I count Dino as a 'dog'.)
@@jessewilley531
Yeah, X-Men was a decade early, as you say. Even the gorgeous Neal Adams run didn't sell. Strong concept, enhanced and found its time/place. One can't mention the growth of the title without the contributions of Byrne, in my view, but X-Men got even bigger after he left.
A lot of superhero stuff is silly, and that's a big part of its charm.
Dogs & monkeys, yeah - but don't forget Godzooky!
Do check out more of Toth's comic book work, more to him that character design and animation.
Great moment in closed captioning you called yourself a toe freak.
LOL
Now I need to start a totally different fetish podcast ;)
great job
Thanks a bunch, Andres!
RIP trailblazer 🙏🕊️
Quite right. Godspeed, JP!
What’s with the sound?
JP didn't have the best mic/audio input. Trying my best to get good audio with guests, and deal with other tech issues as I work on more episodes...
Wow, just found out about JPL'S passing. 😞
Alas, devastating news.