You Don't Need Music Theory
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- Опубліковано 7 чер 2024
- Or, I mean, you do, but it's complicated.
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It's a simple question: How much music theory do you actually need to know? And fortunately, this time it even has a simple answer: Pretty much none. Unless... ok, so it's actually not quite that simple, and it depends on how you define "music theory", "need", and "know". So that's fun. Let's talk about learning!
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Some additional thoughts/corrections:
1) One thing I'm specifically trying to do here is distinguish between music theory the _concept_ and music theory the _institution._ I know it may seem odd to describe enculturation as "learning music theory" because it doesn't align with the values of the institution as represented in academic theory classes, but I view the concept of theory as being much broader and encompassing many more things than get institutional recognition. If that definition doesn't work for you, I understand. I believe the broader point remain, though, even if we disagree on terminology.
2) That thing about musical enculturation is also why you really shouldn't trust theorists who aren't intimately familiar with the music they're theorizing about. It takes time and effort to develop a good intuition for a specific kind of music, and without that you're just throwing random technical terms at the wall to see what sticks. That's not good theorizing.
3) When I talk about how explicit theory knowledge can help you produce music faster, I should note that I'm again talking about music theory the concept, not music theory the institution. This is where that vocabulary thing comes into play: Having a strong explicit musical vocabulary gives you a quick reference list of things to try when you get stuck. That doesn't have to come from a music theory class, but in my experience, prolific artists can usually describe a lot of the thought processes that go into their work.
Glad I read this at the start since my first thought was: I think he means you don't need "the harmonic style of 18th century European musicians"
you suck musoc theory is flawless
Speaking of vocabulary, I already knew that enculturation and implicit learning were a thing, I just didn't know what to call it, so thanks for that. Every musician knows the theory that's relevant to their style, they just don't call things what explicitly educated people do.
It reminds me of a Rick Beato interview with Victor Wooten I saw. Victor talked about learning bass (pre-internet) at a young age by listening to records and trying to play along (implicitly). When he received a more formal education later in life (explicitly) and was told about the Dorian mode, he said "I actually already know that scale, but we all called it the James Brown scale."
Inn be inii in
Do you define music, the song One hundread million people dead by Butthole surfers? Or experimental industrual noise by Throbbing gristle or the White house? Because i do, but i do not know if everybody gonna agree with me
"It's because you're already really good at it (music theory). You just don't know all the words." summarizes it perfectly in my opinion.
I posit The Beatles as a splendid example of this.
What I mean is that J,P,G&R spent the entirety of their youth endlessly picking apart other artist's tunes in an effort to write their own material, thus learning and honing their craft without ever knowing much beyond the letter names of the chords. They came to realize certain chords could be used in certain ways (e.g., borrowing chords from other keys, false modulations, tri-tone sub's, to construct line cliches, etc etc) -- or even that certain chords had certain *functions* -- they just never had the time to learn the proper names for all these techniques that they had come to master along the way.
Example: Macca has a story he's told over and over about writing the song Michelle and the function of one particular chord in the progression. Even now he still refers to that chord as "F demented", lol. ...In another story they tell of how a couple of them had ridden a bus clear across town just to get a fellow guitarist to show them the chord B7. From the way they tell that one it seems they didn't know *any* dominant 7th chords at that point -- they just knew that that particular chord shape had a certain sonic character to it that was lacking in their own tunes before having learned it.
I say "Oh; is *that* what that's called" a lot while watching these videos.
@@keykrazy this is good stuff. Thanks
@@baylinkdashyt Same. Learning music theory "explicitly" has been validating in so many ways.
Honestly I needed to hear that so badly
As a trained musician friend occasionally said to me about the music I was writing before I had learned any theory: "You have great ideas, you just don't know how to spell them."
I remember going back to old songs I wrote and seeing how all of it made so much sense given the knowledge of theory I know now. Just how often I used the same sorts of devices, harmonies, modes, etc.. It's all the same stuff I still use to this day, but I never knew that I was actually doing the same stuff.
Damn, the old songs you wrote made sense? Wish I was that lucky.
When I go back to listen to the old stuff, I really like what I'm hearing, and could even do updates/new versions to them.
@@shitmandood Yeah! I actually do that as a way of pulling myself out of writers block sometimes
@@DragonWinter36
I've been playing professionally, publishing, and selling songs and arrangements, compositions for years before I decided to learn the theory behind my music.
Lucky is right. I just had an ear for music.
It probably took you longer though.
As a songwriter who has gone 95% of my "career" (lol) without knowing any theory: I can say intentionality is my favorite thing about getting into it. I'm thinking more about where I wanna go rather than finding a cool place I somehow ended up in.
Unless youre literally just playing random notes on your instrument without intent, youre using music theory of some sort when you make music. It might not be the theory thats taught in music schools but its a theory of music nonetheless.
I started making music on my computer before I knew what a chord was.
Same. Fruity loops was my first before I ever even owned an instrument. Then I got guitar pro *and then* I got a guitar and never looked back, lol.
🤣 me too! then i started playing bass and keyboards and messing around with sampling. with most of the music i make these days i just draw it all in first in DAW then record everything else once i have a blueprint.
@@HauntaskhanHYPNOSIS
Fruity Loops 3.4 is still my favourite instrument.
I actually started with a guitar but I've wobbled back and forth between the two ever since.
Then how did you plug in the computer?
Oh hi clone.
You’ve missed out a third kind of theory. It’s the kind creative musicians invent for themselves, to inspire the music they haven’t yet written. Messiaen’s modes of limited transposition, Schoenberg’s method of composing with twelve notes, Bartok’s system of axial polarity, Arvo Pärt’s Tintinnabuli and Ornette Coleman’s system of Harmolodics are all examples of conceptual approaches musicians developed before they fully applied them to their own music. No doubt all these theories grew out of a set of instinctive musical preferences each musician already had. But by analysing their preferences, they were able to extend things to the point where they could enrich their music and even surprise themselves.
For instance, the first two of Messiaen’s modes (the whole-tone and diminished scales) had been in general use long before Messiaen began composing. He analysed their structural features, looked for additional scales with the same qualities, and found five new ones he could compose with. To do this, I’m guessing he had to step back from just jamming or “feeling it”, and apply a degree of conceptual abstraction (and yes, I know Messiaen was a precocious improvisor, but he was also a brilliant theorist and teacher too).
I’m not saying every musician needs to invent their own personal musical language the way Messiaen did. But developing this ability to abstract things and project them forward still might be useful for you, especially if you’re trying to free yourself from option-of-the-moment cliches.
I think he already kind of did after 7:40
"a bit of a meme in music circles"
*draws loss*
I was literally just about to comment that, how dare you.
that took me out lmao
Fantastic video! So relatable to everyone who has made music. You teach in such a unique and humble way! Hooked on your channel!
It's marvelous to see you here, Warren!!!
@@maxivillafane4273 it's marvellous to be here! I love this level of education!
Aye it's the other guy I learned so much from! Your videos rival that of 12tone 👌
Sensei is here🙇
Hey, welcome to 12Tone! I hope you're doing marvelously well!
There's a part of music that's very intuitive, especially melody writing. So while I do think Music Theory can be very useful, and musicians should understand the basics, I do you can write great music without it
I know right ?! When you're surrounded by music and can hear it on tune, you just play around and see what works
everyone keeps saying this but melody writing is impossible to me. lyrics are the easiest part, ive written a lot of poems, but i cant put them to melody.
I just learned it because I thought it was cool. Don’t care if I “have to” or not.
It's not about whether it's cool or not. It's whether you have an interest in doing it. Cool implies that you have to look at the crowd and make sure that socially, what you are looking at would be considered "cool" and accepted by their social norms...lol.
@@shitmandood That’s what I meant. I don’t like being wordy. What I meant by “cool” was that I found it interesting.
Same here! My interest in music, making music, and the fundamentals of music theory skyrocketed in early 2018, and since then, I've come to appreciate music much more in general. Plus, it felt great to be ahead of the pack (because, at the time, I was just a middle school freshman)!
@@yarlodek5842 Their correction isnt even right
"You're probably not thinking "I'm going to go put that in a rock song""
That's exactly what I was thinking lolol it's the reason I watch this channel
Lol me too
Yesssss same.
I could likely find his example in an actual rock song. It was a bad statement.
Same as well.
If you'll pardon the digression I used to play keys in a metal band that got pretty big in my local tri-state area back in the late 90's. On one hand it seemed the easiest job in the world: I would often find myself simply holding down a whole-note on a "string" preset patch, usually choosing to play the 3rd or 9th of the chord while the rhythm section were all doing their simple root-five power chords; sometimes I'd just trigger a couple samples to add some extra color/variety to whatever relatively simple groove we had going on.. Anyways I was just starting to get into film composer Bernard Herrmann at the time and thus got into this fun little game of trying to throw in a half-diminished seventh chord (e.g., the "Herrmann chord") whenever i thought i could get away with it. (The rhythm guitarist could only ever play the roots as you may well know a diminished chord is gonna sound like utter crap when played by a heavily-distorted guitar!) Now in hindsight i realize that the songs that always went over best with the crowd were those ones where we had included just a single diminished chord -- and it was always located either coming out of a bridge/interlude section or nestled somewhere around the climax of a chorus.
While I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of this video, my diminished 7th "trick" would never have occurred to me had I not previously been taught this harmonic versatility of diminished seventh chords. Moreover, being a keyboardist in a metal band has a certain "fish out of water" vibe that I never really got past -- so I was constantly drawing on my knowledge of music theory to remain relevant/hip/useful in that context. IMHO, for keyboardists playing in the "metal" genres a background in music theory is what most often separates the wheat from the chaff.
@@keykrazy That was a very insightful digression and an interesting experience to read.
Notably, music was being made for millennia before any formal theory on it was written down.
I think it really comes down to the difference between understanding and articulation. Being able to make or do a thing is different from being able to describe how and why you did it, which is mostly important when you want to do said thing frequently or in collaboration with other people.
"it's a lot easier to develop an intuition than an explanation"
Did you just perfectly diagonose the problem with education as the first world currently knows it???
My college music professor would say "you need to know the rules in order to break them." I've always thought that perfectly summed up the reason for learning theory.
As a guitar teacher, I completely agree and have been telling my students a very similar thing.
I always think of theory as basically a way of labelling as many of the different techniques and sounds that I play or hear. Without those labels, I may personally have a much harder time memorizing a piece of music or especially writing it down in a way I can return to later or show to others.
So while it certainly isn’t necessary, I do find it very important in how I listen to, play, write, or teach music.
The venerable Victor Wooten once said "Theory is good to know, but it's just a set of tools you use when something goes wrong. When you're driving, you don't keep your tools in the passenger seat, you keep them in the trunk."
i've been trying to get into music and learning it for years and it's so frustrating and I feel so overwhelmed by how much there is to know. I have 2 basic music theory certificates and completed 2 online courses on music and I still feel insecure about my skills and knowledge to the point I'm constantly giving up on my dream of making music - and I'm not saying I want to be famous or whatever I just want to make songs in order to express my creativity and thoughts and feelings. maybe it's due to my anxiety but I started to kinda hate music because of the frustration I feel, sometimes I can't even enjoy a live performance of my favorite artists cuz I think "wow I will never be able to do something like that" and just drown in anger
To me, there’s one thing that music theory could never do and that’s feeling the music you love. When you feel it that’s when things flow out better.
best way to make music for me has always been just plain intuition. what melodies come to mind when listening to a chord progression etc. i think its way more fun to feel it out rather than do weird math stuff that youtubers tell you to do
Haha! RIGHT!🤣👍
I tell myself things like these but then I think to myself that 1. The math is not that complicated and sitting down just to memorize things such as intervals, parts of the circle of fifths etc. could be so beneficial and 2. Intuition is very good but I also always worry I'm stunting my logical or critical thinking by relying purely on intuition
Seeing it as weird math means you just don't understand it. The names of theory concepts make it sound difficult, but music theory itself is pretty simple.
Math-rock people, also some online music course: huh?
I use both. Math and intuition. Math gives you an advantage
06:41 OMG... I really admire your "cultured" knowledge reflected on your drawings, and still you never cease to amaze me... Twig from Hilda? just wow!
I was more impressed by the Feynman diagram.
And I was laughing over Bill from Schoolhouse Rock.
I will say that nobody’s music got worse from them learning about voice leading
That Jake Lizzio shoutout made my day
This guy totally deserves it
I thought the 'portal' thing was an excellent way of putting it when I first saw the video.
For a moment, I thought his name was about to get trashed...hahah. But no. Kudos.
His videos on the diminished and augmented chords are simply gold for songwriting, so are his videos on modes, etc. Guy is one of the most underrated youtubers, period
I love the video where he writes a super cheesy Mixolydian hair metal song from scratch
As a composer who didn't even know that music theory was a thing that existed before starting to make music on very simple computer tools in the early 90s, this is the video I've been waiting to see.
It so deeply resonates with my understanding of how I came to learn about making music, which is very much that implicit approach. I was very good at internalising melodic and harmonic ideas so I was making quite melodically interesting stuff before I even knew what a scale was. Later on theory gave me some tools to describe what I was hearing (but as you touch on in the video, even as that it's a fairly imperfect tool with inherent biases and problems), and I agree that it CAN help in the other ways you mention, sometimes.
But I think at the moment so much of music theory UA-cam has a perspective on theory that feels completely alien to me and the way my brain processeses music when writing. All the time I take a look at my old pieces and analyse them and occasionally realise that I've done something quite 'clever' (or at least something that has a name I didn't know before) but much of music UA-cam acts like you have to know the name of the thing, and how it works, and practice using it, to make it part of your musical vocab... and that's just not necessarily true. That's just one way it can happen.
Me, a music major: Yup. Completely agreed.
i’m a self proclaimed music theory nerd, i’m also a songwriter. the amount of theory i use in my songs is close to 0, besides knowing what a secondary dominant is or using different modes or scales. but that’s really it
Secondary dominance and modes? That is far from zero. Good for you!👍
@@Bubba-zu6yr that is the bare basics, more songwriter tricks than actual music theory. giving that music theory is about the analysis of existing music, I don’t classify that simply knowing it exists as using music theory. just my opinion though
That is literally the core of music theory. Dominant tonic relationship and scales. 'That's really it' Lol as if there's anything more fundemental
It`s not that you don`t use it, you just don`t have to think about it, like when we speak we don`t think of the rules of our language
@floris Kolder, I think what you might be forgetting is that theory is a toolset, a means to an end. And similarly to a language, once you get good enough at it, you use it seamlessly. When you speak your native language, which you've spoken all your life, you don't constantly think about the rules of the language, since they become second nature. Same with Dominant, Secondary Dominant and scales, using them has become second nature to you. So you don't actively think about them. But you most certainly use them!
The last point is the most important to me. I wish that every musician I ever work with would just study enough theory to learn the jargon. It’s so much easy to work together when we have a shared & proven vocabulary.
My cousin mentioned this when I played an original song of mine for him. It’s a “jazzy” song with lots of split triads that move by pretty quickly.
When my cousin asked me what the chords were, all I could tell him was “I think it’s in G Major.” He explained that some theory would very useful for helping me communicate my musical ideas with other musicians.
While that’s quite true, the main reason I have used it, is to better understand what I was already doing. I wanted to know what chords I was playing in my own songs, so I started learning about chord construction and triads and transposing. I also learned more about intervals as part of that process.
I also want to eventually be able to go to a root note anywhere on the fretboard and build any chord on the fly. I’m not there yet, but the journey has been fun.
I used to hate theory because I wasn’t ready for it, and it was presented to me very badly! I has some classical music training as a child and was taught (I got that impression anyway) that one had to learn to sight read and play all the scales and know all the theory BEFORE actually making music.
The classical approach of “Here are the rules. Learn them all, and only then do you get to play real any music!” turned me off from playing music for many years.
My childhood piano teacher didn’t consider the Beatles (or any popular music) to actually BE music. She also hit me for not curling my fingers correctly.
Even still, I am finally becoming the musician I aspired to become 60 years ago.
I think it depends on the person. Maybe you might do better with it, maybe others might not. So not everyone needs music theory, but some people might do better with it.
Yeah, I think if you were, say, Mozart; a "savant" basically it would all just be in your head anyway. Maybe, or it would take very little study, playing and listening to get it in there anyway.
For me, and my fellow music majors when we were in school I think that combination of classroom theory and sight singing/ear training class is very fruitful. It's a very necessary process (especially the SS/ET class) of learning and then eventually automatizing a vocabulary and a grammar that's later just there to use without having to consciously think about it. (Like the old jazz saying about "learn/memorize the changes so you can "forget" the changes maybe?)
Stephen King says something similar about going back and explicitly studying grammar as an adult writer. If you automatized it at some point, you don't need to study it. In other words it's all there for you in your subconscious if you learned it explicitly/consciously.
But... you'd have to have studied it and learned it in the first place for it to be there.
This sounds a lot like learning grammar; native speakers know the grammar of their language by "instinct", but learners can shortcut the process of acquiring this instinct by learning grammar formally.
not sure what the connection is between 'intuition' and twig but that was one heck of a reference to get blindsided by, always happy to see other people out in the while who liked hilda
as a music theory instructor, first of all, ouch, but also, yeah
Agreed. As a jazz guitar/theory & comp teacher myself all I have to say is “the arts” are for everyone and everyone is different.
I see it as grammar. Very useful to know, but you don't need it to be able to talk.
@@Kov89 I would say it’s more like certain “Style” elements in writing. Grammar is pretty fundamental in that bad grammar can make it hard for others to understand what you’re saying. Not following music theory doesn’t make your music any worse.
However, there are certain “style” elements in writing like “don’t use the passive voice” or “avoid using ‘like’ unnecessarily” that can be ignored without necessarily losing value in a sentence. That might be a tighter analogy
2:01 *"Ghost Town* by The Specials plays spontaneously*
This touches on the reason it’s so difficult to teach metal, rap and funk. While all styles have a theoretical base, some styles are far better understood by getting into the rhythmic and emotional pocket that defines the language.
It's difficult to really teach any genre. There's lots of formal education for jazz, but still the most important method given by every teacher is to transcribe songs by ear.
@@Rakkoonn The difference for me, is when I hear really great musicians try certain genres, they're generally convincing. In the realm of funk, rap and metal, the inauthenticity is glaring to the point of cringe. This is something understood by those communities as well. The three genres have a lot of things in common that show why they're different than blues, rock, classical and jazz in this particular way.
I mean, you can't really "teach" someone any genre. You can only really teach the basic components of genres. The only real way to learn a genre is by listening to it, and playing around with it on an instrument.
@@gobbiprimus8167 Even if we go by what passes for teaching in our current structure. Teaching the fundamentals of metal/rap/funk doesn't yield the same results as teaching the fundamentals of gospel/RnB/Rock/blues. I liken it to teaching someone drama vs. teaching them comedy. Drama can be learned predominantly through structure, but comedy can only be learned by understanding what you find funny. Comedy still has structure, but it's not the engine of the genre.
I think the difficulty with Metal (the genre i have some experince with) is they use a lot of conventions that are basically violations in other genres, such as the intentional and prominet use of of the flat second and tritone. I've been co-writing some metal music with my business partner, who has basically no theory. I think the major difference is he thinks in terms of riff and rhythmic constructions whereas I often think in chord and harmonic instructions. This means that when he writes counterpoints he will try voicings and harmonies that wouldn't have occured to me because they don't fit into my normal framework, and it sounds super metal.
I likewise have a hard time listening to modern rap/RnB. I want to be specific here cause i think there is great rap and RnB music, just i haven't found it on the radio. To me it sounds like 1) simple repetitive bassline 2) a regurgitated trap beat and 3) some guy rapping about something i don't relate to. Now it's obviously more than that, but it's so hard for me to listen to because things i value in music just aren't present, but i'd love to learn what to enjoy there.
The inauthenticity problem can obviously be an issue, but I guess i'm thinking, maybe we haven't quantified the conventions and motifs of the genere so that they aren't taught appropriately yet.
Wow... Linkin Park, Evanescence, and Disturbed. We must have been adolescent at the exact same time, those are some of my favorites too
At least in my experience, the most important use of theory is the vocabulary, simply giving names to whatever the hell you're doing.
Making good chord progressions becomes so much easier once you know the name and relationships between the chords that you're playing, instead of having to "discover" them again each time you want to write something. I remember how tedious it was to guess and play with midi notes for minutes to create a progression that sounded good to me, now I just know the shortcuts, I can identify what i did to produce that particular emotion or sound. That skill also comes with practice and implicit learning of course, developing an intuition for writing chords doesn't necessarily need theory, but it's useful.
It makes communicating ideas to other musicians easier as well, it saves everyone the frustration of trying to explain a slightly specific or complicated part lol
So grateful for all your vids! You put into videos so many things I’ve thought and have wanted to explain to people about theory and music,but haven’t been fully able to through the lack of examples and structures
Great video! Studying music in high school gave me a good grasp of the fundamentals of writing music, as well as exposure to some interesting ideas (with regard to chords, scales and time signatures) that have allowed me to write more inventive music than might have otherwise been the case. However, I 100% agree that you don't need to 'know music theory' to write great music, and other people have taken different journeys to get to equally valid and inspiring musical destinations.
This video is so well done. People actually know far more than they believe they do across rather broad spectrums. Whether through expressly knowing from particular elements or by being able to intuitively understand things and what pieces either fit or don't within given frameworks when encountering them.
The same holds true with visual art and the written word (amongst many other areas).
Portions are often what are commonly referred to as suspension(s) of disbelief when applied to these other fields.
When I first started I didn't know theory and embraced the philosophy that it wasn't necessary. And I think I made some good stuff. But over the years I picked some up and eventually theory came to be interesting and I learned a lot more. And it's certainly helped me understand what I can do and again, I think I've made some good stuff.
Did I need it? No. Do I think it was worth learning? Absolutely. It's improved my appreciation of music and, to a lesser extent, improved my composition skills.
"By the time you pick up an instrument" *draws a theremin*. I laughed.
Just found this channel and you’re a GEM! I love the way you explain things and your perspective- thank you!
When a big name artist says "I don't know music theory" I roll my eyes.
Knowing that the first chord of your song is an E minor *is* music theory.
People get the impression that music theory is and *only* is reading tones on a page.
That's the silliest comment I've read today. Of course it's still early.
@@minggnim spelling errors aside, I stand by it a year later.
When people say the Beatles didn't know music theory, it's less a statement of fact and more of a way to express and underlying opinion on music theory
As someone who took AP Music theory, it actually killed my vibe to make music for a good couple of years. It was just an intense bootcamp to pass the test and I got a 3 on it because I was so unhappy in the class
I’ve learned a couple of instruments, but this is where I get stuck. I get to a point where, mechanically, I can play the instrument, but I don’t think I’ve ever been able to get that implicit theory part working. I always feel like I’m missing something, then I get discouraged and stop.
I've felt like an imposter for over 50 years. I greatly avoided my love of making music and my musical talents and desires because of fear and shame of being "caught." I hope every grade school band, orchestra, and choir director sees this, realizes there are probably students feeling the same as I did in their midst, and will incorporate the many lessons from your video again and again with their students. It would make a huge difference in the lives of at least a few.
Music has always been an emotional language to me more than anything else. I simply find theory interesting because I want to know how music manages to achieve making someone feel a certain way. But I definitely agree - I never knew what the names of certain rhythmic devices or chord changes were for the longest time, but I knew how they made me feel. I knew that the V - I resolutions in Comfortably Numb's chorus were more solid and clear than the IV - I resolutions in the verse. It's amazing how the enculturation like you explained has us knowing so much before we even know that we know anything. Great video, 12tone!
Your explanations are always so delightful.
I didn't know much about music theory but I understood the idea of 'pick a few notes and just use them', how moving different intervals created certain feelings and the same with using different notes simultaneously, the idea of mirroring patterns (inversion I think people who know what they're talking about call it) and how having a riff end on the same note it starts on sounds complete whereas ending on a different note can sound increasingly tense, ending 5 or 7 notes(semi-tones) away sounds in between the two.
I still don't know much but you're teaching me the vocabulary.
2:53 "the tool isn't useful"
*draws alto clef*
I died
Edit: yeah, alto not viola clef. Im stupid
Wait do people call the alto clef the viola clef that's so funny
I mean in German the treble clef is called the violin clef so
@@pablom.5698 yeah, in poland too. Thats why i got it wrong at the beginning
i started learning music theory because i sucked at songwriting, which hasn't changed but now i know music theory
i love how you seem to be going insane about how everything youre about is a joke and a lie recently, very relatable :)
pls tell me what this means i’m curious
I've noticed this since the Ludacris video lol
Obviously you don’t NEED theory, but it is very helpful if you ever want to learn anything that doesn’t immediately come naturally to you. I feel it made the writing process way more streamlined and structured for me, as it was basically just trial and error and brute force until I learned how to label the sounds I liked.
Somehow I read "triad and error." I guess that's what it becomes after you learn the theory.
Man your doddles are lovely and your explanation about if we need music theory to make music is so accurate. I play several instruments and I played a lot of pieces (classical pieces) and also popular music on those instruments. I was thinking about reading a lot of music theory first and then try to compose my own music but I just realized that I can do both at the same time. This is the video that I needed in this part of my life. Thank you so much for making this type of content. You are amazing!!
Yeah, they have this argument all the time over on the vi-control forums. Me, personally, if I love something, really love it, hell I want to know every single thing about it that I can stuff in my brain. I did my music composition degree, and am still studying the outer reaches of theory and even the physics of sound. (And play/have played many instruments.) I just don't understand being like, "I love this subject so much that... I want to know as little as possible about it. "What is that, knowledge about music!? NO! NO! GET IT AWAY FROM ME, I'M SO INTERESTED IN MUSIC I DON'T WANNA KNOW ABOUT IT!!!!!!1!11!"
Totally agree. The more music theory you know, the more possibilities you have in your composing. Everytime I read about an unfamiliar concept in music theory, I think "how can I use this in my compositions?"
Exactly. When I started playing chess first thing I did was look up GM chess lessons for kids. I want to know all the principles.
But I guess some people aren’t like that and just want to play the game.
I think it's more from a perspective of: is there something wrong with being a musician that never learned theory not so much being afraid or unwilling to learn it. It can be a lot harder to learn theory if you learned music on your own. I'm awful with math so practical theory is an uphill battle for me but it's still super interesting.
I've watched two videos from this guy and I already loved it. This one and the Rick Beato rant. I'm definitely subscribed. We need more people that see music theory as you do nowadays.
1:26 I think you'll like 15-EDO, because although it doesn't have diminished 7ths, it has something even better: 5 notes in 240-cent intervals make something that allows for unlimited modulation, but it's also a consonant chord, so you can even use it where harsh sounds don't work.
I'm an amateur rock musician who has recently been composing classical music. Theory has been an excellent tool to help me compose. A lot of composition is about finding creative ways to solve musical problems. Theory gives me lots of possible ways to solve those problems. Could I compose if I didn't know any theory? Probably. But I don't think it would be as good. Or at least it would take me a lot longer to do. I'm not stuck in theoretical rules. Ultimately I rely on what sounds good to me and what it is I'm trying to say artistically, but theory helps me get there. Do you need to know theory? Probably not. But it's such a useful tool that I recommend all musicians at least learn the basics.
I've been a music producer for a while now, I always thought I needed theory to create the songs I wanted to make. Turns out I'm making it harder for myself and it kinda sounds mechanical, not really sure what to do now but I think learning the guitar kinda helped me in some way of grasping how to arrange things and wat sounds good together. Tho there are other things to music production that have a difficulty in itself like mixing, sound selection, sampling, etc.
The problem with learning music theory is that my theory professor in college used them as rules by which to judge our work, and if it didn't fit his narrow view as he taught it to us, it was "wrong". That could be an unintentional side effect of trying to make sure we understood the concepts he was teaching, but the effect was pretty bad. That taught me that there are specific ways to create music, stilted my musical growth, and took years to shed. Finally I can break out of the theory we learned as undergrads and finding ways to "break" the "rules" is fun.
Dexter's Lab as the symbol for implicit theory. The Lion King representing new artists learning from old artists. THIS CHANNEL BLOWS MY MIND.
Thank you for this. A few months ago, at 37, I decided I wanted to be a musician, so I've been clarinet daily and less theory. I've realized I have musical instincts, it's just that I haven't developed my cognitive connection to it yet but it's coming to me and something in me tells me it's possible with time. It's slow but it's emerging.
I often make the analogy to cooking. I've been doing it for about 20 years with no formal training and I always improvise and I almost always satisfy my audience. It motivates me.
Thank you so much for this video, I really needed it
As someone who gets incredibly excited and fulfilled not only by playing music but studying it in depth, the points you make here seem to also touch on how I describe my own spiritual path: It's one thing to go through the motions and feel that it's right or not but it's an entirely other thing to put in the time to understanding the WHY. It's one thing to instinctually feel a chord progression as working or not but it's another to be able to put a name to it, understand those who've actually used it, and be able to communicate it to others.
*Implicitly,* I like trying to find, or build a sound I want to make a song with. If I have a fun looking VST, I want to try to make something with it.
*Explicitly,* I look to the scales I understand, or am trying to understand, like scales that are used in songs I like, and see how they work to build the song around my sounds.
This is just how I approach it, but with that model, I've made some songs that I'm honestly proud of that I never thought I'd be able to make, maybe only a year ago.
0:02 caught that minutphysics cameo very cool
This is kind of how I write stories. I've been reading and writing all my life, so I know pretty well how to structure a story and what would work in a certain context versus what wouldn't...but if you asked me to name any of the techniques or styles I use, I'd draw a blank. I don't know any of the theory and the words I invented for it are really only intelligible to me and no one else.
With musical theory (that I also know nothing about) I often find that the accepted terminology is more confusing than anything else to me. When people talk about resolutions and expectations in the context of musical theory, I usually just think, "But that's not how it feels to me at all." As in, "This chord sounds unresolved and you want it to come back to the root," and my reaction to it is, "It sounds pretty resolved to me."
Honestly, though, I have that with most things. I like explicit learning, but only for things I have a merely academic interest in. For anything else, implicit is the way to go for me. When learning languages, I don't want to know the grammatical rules. I just want to see it done right often enough that I'll learn them without knowing them. Learning the rules makes things less clear for me, not more. With writing, I don't want to know the name of the techniques I use. All I want is to be able to use them. And with music, I love listening to musical theory and watching videos on it, but only because I have no intention of ever using it, and prefer to use my caveman-speak to describe why I like or don't like certain kinds of music.
I love your videos, and i love how a really professional music theorist is so humble about knowledge. Greetings from chile my friend!!
Recently started writing songs and I feel like my small knowledge of theory has helped understand why I’m playing sounds good to me, but I’m not like asking myself too much what chords belong in what progression or other things like that lol I do feel like I would have an easier time understanding the connection between the stuff that I’m playing and why it sounds good but like I can’t pinpoint that lol it just sounds good.
So I wouldn’t say you need to know theory to write music but it def helps more & you’ll have an easier time than just sitting there throwing stuff at the wall and see what sticks. Or at least you’ll have a better understanding of the music you make.
Very cool video, I'm a songwriter and i've never had any musical education, I've always had trouble articulating to more musically educated people how it is that I feel my way through making song, and this actually helped me figure out what it is im doing in a way that will help me both explain myself and thinking about ways to help myself learn and get better
on point as always! only thing i'm not sure about is the idea of always returning to my favorite music of back when i was a teen. i hardly listen to any of the music i did back then - not that i wouldnt appreciate them now, but i've simply found a lot of new stuff that i'm more crazy about. most of my current favorite artists are ones i've discovered within the last 2-3 years or so, and i continue to discover new ones that blow my mind. not sure if this is the norm for other ppl but yeah that's been my experience
Finally some more validation for musicians who made their way into songwriting via punk rock & DIY 👌
Love this lesson - thanks!
I'm glad you mentioned Signals Music Studio. Jake's channel is the best one I've found that takes theory concepts and shows how to actually use them in modern music. He also connects theory to emotional impact, which is super useful in writing and arranging. Shout out to Jake!
I think music theory gives you more insights and tools to understand what you are doing...so it amplifies your knowledge and your possibilities, and this is a great thing. For curious people, it's wonderful, because you understand "why's and how's"...and it's really interesting and fun. But I don't think it's "necessary". Intuiton and inspiration are more important in my opinion.
In my experience, I wrote a load of really strong songs when I was in my early 20s and knew very little about theory but when I started to feel frustrated, like I was going round in circles, learning theory opened all kinds of doors for me
I personally need music theory just because my relationship with everything is that i have to overanalyze every little detail and then draw my own conclusions and make my own methods. I've got some kind of pathological thing where if I'm interested in it, i won't be satisfied until i can study its bones and build it from scratch. But it straight up pisses me off when people think they have to "know"things or be formally educated in order to do things well or have an opinion or make observations.
Also when people think you have to be "good at" something in order to do it, but that's a different conversation.
Just finished McCartney 3-2-1 on Hulu, which is an amazing series with Rick Rubin asking Paul about how various songs were made. It's not just a straight, interview. Paul plays bits of songs on piano and guitar and talks about where they came from. Notably, he also talks about how he can't read or write music, and doesn't know much "theory." He just played with his instruments until he found things that sounded good together. One of the greatest song-writers of all time had almost no training, and a lot of free time.
Thank you for another entertaining and educational presentation!
I know nothing about music theory and only a few chords on a guitar, I can't really play.....but I learn a lot and I'm actually starting to pick things up you say as I watch your videos.
This was especially fun to watch.
Please keep up the good work!
CC
I teach English as a second language. Many people are also concerned with being able to learn a language without learning the grammar. There are some of your arguments I've used as well. The tools to get somewhere faster is exactly what they are.
Indeed. I have taught jazz guitar and theory for 30+ years and couldn’t agree more. Better the foundation the better the structure. I find the pit-fall in this conversation as a whole is that people tend to try to justify not learning more than just putting their head down and doing it (“it” being skill x, y or z).👍
@@Bubba-zu6yr And besides that thing that looks like an anti-effort mentality, I don't understand loving something and not having, curiosity--I guess is the best thing to call it--about the subject. Anything I get interested in, I want to know EVERYTHING about. The desire to know is almost a kind of lust with me really. I can't understand people who are apathetic about knowing more about what they allegedly "love".
@@Bubba-zu6yr precisely.
@@Bubba-zu6yr Would you point me to a book on jazz guitar? I'd appreciate it very much.
@@joetowers4804 , hey! Considering your assumed knowledge grab something from Joe Pass. There are several.👍
For me the answer would be "however much you want". Its like asking "how much blues do I need to play to make good music?" None, but if you want to learn the blues it can only help you. Plenty of brilliant musicians knew no formal theory, but I find it helps me and I like thinking about it, so I learned a bunch. It didn't get me anywhere in music, but it did enrich my life.
I am not much into music making at all currently but, while I was still playing the piano casually a bit I actually found out some small tidbits like how when you play multiple notes the highest note will kinda stand out. So when you do a melody you should be able to have everything be chords so long as you follow the highest note for what your base melody should sound like.
(This actually kind of opposes the tidbits I have heard about chord theory itself)
More recently when starting to drive I started to try snap my fingers in the rythm (which might help when I start playing rythm games again) and I noticed how everything in the songs are usually even multiplicatives of some bpm.
So if you have a background going at 1 snap per second you could have a foreground which has notes appearing on 3rds of that intervall, but not on 2.5rds.
And even if this faster foreground misses some hits of the multiplicative bpm, it still sounds in rythm to the slower background.
(This seems to coincide with what I heard about rythm rather well)
This is so legit
king
Music theory refers to systems of fundamental musical literacy (nomenclature) -- analogous to grammar and rhetoric. Intuitive expression in language/music doesn't require literacy, but acquiring literacy opens many other possibilities for expressing intuitive ideas!
I appreciate the inclusion of Twig
Learning music theory has been unbelievably helpful for me. Music I've made before was utter trash, unpleasant to listen to even for myself. After learning the basics of music theory, scales, notes, chords, rhythm, and how to put that all together, very quickly allowed me to make decent stuff. Learning theory might not be needed but I don't know what I'd do without it
I have always said music theory helps you describe what happened, but it doesn't always tell you what to play or write. You have to try it, you have to jam with people, you have to listen to genres of music and even learn music that you aren't as comfortable with. In my case, I might play a few country songs at an open mic, and not really understand what the audience is feeling because I don't feel anything but the performance. So, I go home, and really listen to those songs. Then, I start to get the genre in my bones. After all that work, I listen to the Beatles, Zepplin, Otis Redding or AC/DC to relax. The latter artists being my home; to paraphrase 12-Tone, that is my adolescent comfort zone.
I just wanna say I really appreciate the correct Einstein dispersion relation at 3:23. While E= mc^2 is perfectly fine it's a special case of the more general statement.
Yup- but also, I hate people who say e = mc^2 is wrong and that they’re better- hell, outside of the papers Einstein calls it by its non moving form- simplification is a tool, not a “duh u stupid”
My take is music theory is "just" putting words to abstract sounds, but words are inherently mnenomic tools, and by that very process, the abstract becomes more concrete. You can implicitly learn music theory, I mean, we all do. But putting in the extra work of understanding the connections between the categories allows for more relational meaning. There's no complete theory, as sound, harmony, melody and our reaction to it based on our previous experience is a combinatorial multidimensional matrix of possibilities, but getting any sort of grip on how elements are related allows us to not simply recognize a place we've been to before, but how you got there and where you can go from here. The map is not the territory, but maps (models, words, etc) sure help us navigate nonetheless.
I think the process of learning music theory can honestly be really fun and interesting. It's like someone describing in a technicall vocabulary many of the things you already kind of instinctively knew. And some things are just plain interesting, like the diminished 7th thing! (very cool, btw.) It sometimes can help you "fabricate"inspiration when the inspiration isn't naturally there already, like you said, just like a recipe, where you can throw in your own special spices and touches.
Great video! i always struggled with the meaning of "what it takes to be called a musician" when i hear the word "musician" i think of someone who knows the notes they play and understands music theory. I play guitar and i never know what notes i am playing, i don't know anything about theory. I just play what sounds good to me, so i never called myself a musician. Just because i thought to earn the title of musician you must know music theory and you must know what you are doing on your instrument. I don't know why it bothered me asking myself "am i a musician"? but now this video was very eye opening. Especially coming from someone such as 12tone who went to school for music. I guess it doesn't matter if you know music theory or not, all musicians end up at the same place which is, making music that speaks to them, We just take different ways to get to the same place.
Years of playing piano, making music, figuring out some plays, and came to the point where i'm like "I know nothing about music"
Good video. I taught myself piano. I started when I was 6 years old. By the age of 9 he could play a simple version of almost anything he could hear. This is how I developed my ear for music and also learned to establish a relationship between melodies and keyboard mechanics. When I was 12 I got to the point where I could produce complex harmonizations of melodies and I was also starting to develop my improvisation skills, which were mainly pentatonic stuff. If you don't know what penthatonic scales are I recommend you to Google it. I cut my first recording session when I was 13 and after that, they started calling me to do things like that without jingless and things like that. I remember that I practiced 8 hours a day on weekends and at least 4-6 hours a day. I was at school and couldn't do it all day. Because I took the time to perfect my skills, I was able to exponentially improve my precision, my timing, my harmonies, and my lines of improvisation. At the age of 14 I was hired to direct my first album for a popular music artist thanks to the executive producer, the music producer, and the artist who believed in my talent. My theoretical knowledge of music was very basic, but I had the balls to learn and apply what I learned. I was able to demonstrate that I had the technical capacity to do it without knowing much theory. But this took sacrifice and dedication, that didn't come for free like a miracle from a cloud. I knew some musical terminology because I interacted with a lot of great studio musicians all the time. All of them are icons in the music industry of the '80-'90s era. And I wasn't ashamed to ask questions to everyone. Because music is my passion and when you love what you do you try to learn as much as you can about it. That's what having a passion is all about. If you don't feel that then what you have is a hobby. That passion is what differentiates good musicians and true artists from lazy and mediocre musicians who never get anywhere. Musicians who, even if they could be lucky enough to work professionally, what they make is more noise than anything else! And they are cheap because they can't charge for what they can't offer in exchange! Because they simply do not dedicate time to their career, which should be their passion. Which is the real reason why today's music sounds extremely simple and so crappy, boring, baseless, textureless, empty, and truly academically elemental. Today's lyrics seem to have been written by a 5-year-old child with serious learning problems. But back to the original topic; I really loved asking questions all the time to people who know a lot more than me. Since I was basically pursuing a career in music, I thought it was crucial to learn music theory. It was going to expand my knowledge, it was going to bring me a different perspective, and it also helps me learn to appreciate the art of music in more detail. In addition, I would not need a computer to transcribe my ideas anymore. I could now write musical arrangements anywhere, even while driving my car to the studio! Other musicians could understand my ideas clearly. That translated into easy money for me at all times. Music is not just making noise brother. Music must have a meaning, music alone must bring a message on its own. And when you learn to create noise that is compatible with the lyrics of a song, then you can be considered an artist. If you cannot understand the mechanics and dynamics between the message of the lyrics and the message of the music alone, you cannot achieve it, then you are simply generating pure environmental noise pollution. You're right, music theory is not necessary if you really know how to play an instrument. But knowing the theory is an important update that will give you much more different perspectives, increase your arsenal of ideas and teach you what the art of music is fundamentally about. You can still do it yourself, but it will still be part of your learning experience. So in a way, you're exposing your brain to learning music anyway! If you dedicate yourself seriously to this business, the normal tendency is to become a better musician every day. If you don't have that drive that pushes your abilities to the limit, sorry, you're not a real musician. Talent is a business of sacrifice and perfection. If you don't have that size of balls, then learn how to make macramé or learn how to make quinceanera cakes. Probably music as an art is not your thing, brother. And you may become famous, but you will never be a real musician. We already have the main stream mined from those. Try being different. Venture to learn and do it correctly. Everyone can fry an egg Those who dedicate time to their passion make an egg a work of culinary art. Cheers!
I rarely use music theory when actually writing chord progressions. I’m much more in tune with what emotional responses correlate to what chord change or interval. The scientific music theory stuff is only there for me to actually know what the notes I am playing are, so that I can add a melody or a solo, or just so some other piece of ambiance during a track won’t clash in a way I don’t want. And I learn hey! These combination of notes creates this kind of feelings.
I'm a singer songwriter & guitarist. I've written songs for 20 years. Never learned music theory. But I know what notes & scales I use . I just hear the melody in my head and build upon it.
Mussorgsky didn't have formal training, but "Pictures at an Exhibition" is one of the most popular pieces in all of classical music. The Bee Gees couldn't read music, but their music still influences everyone, especially mashers and fighters of the foo. And of course, the Beatles didn't know any theory, but their producer George Martin did, and that combination made their music the amazing oeuvre that it is. It's all about what you do with what you know.
12tone you always manage to put a smile on my face, keep on with the good work!
Sodium citrate makes the melting cheese hold an emusion without breaking in the Mac and Cheese. The other Adam (Ragusea) has a couple videos on this.
seeing someone represent ‘intuition over explanation’ with a Feynman diagram is truly a pleasing thing to see
This reminds me of how Kikuo said in his early works, he said knew nothing of chord progressions. Most of his work was made with implicit learning.
He made songs like "Universe Cat Drowning", "Reincarnation Ascension", "Tengoku He Ikou", and "Gomenne Gomenne" through just listening and deciding what he liked the most. And then we look at his more modern songs like "Hitogawari", "Fukouya No Musume", "Searching for Your Love" and "Voices of Svaahaa"
They sound very different from his early work and yet are still distinctly his. As time passed I'm guessing he gained more explicit knowledge, and while it's impossible to tell if that's the cause, his music has gotten a lot more complex and interesting. I think that's point being made. Many parts of music, and art in general can be intuited, but finding the words and tools can and will be an enormous help.
I learn music theory for fun.
yes
actually it's really fun and stimulating, not to mention useful.
@@PlaguePriest88 It’s unfortunate that people that take music classes in college are forced to take theory because it sucks all the fun out of it. I had a great time from start to finish, but I knew plenty of people that would have found it interesting if they stumbled across it themselves rather than being forced to take it.
@@btat16 yes, you're right
I don't play any instruments, although I have had some lessons on several over the years. I can barely read music notation. But as a deep listener, I can tell you I have built an incredible amount of implicit knowledge. Watching theory videos helps give me the vocabulary to make my implicit knowledge explicit for the purpose of communication. It's the ability to discuss and communicate this implicit knowledge that explicit music theory allows. It builds upon our implicit knowledge, extends it, but it's useless without the implicit knowledge as a basis to work from.