Funnily enough, this would make a great idea for a tv show. Like one person realizes he is being imagined by Tommy Westphall. And then travels between universes to do...things.
Some cartoons have done this for one episode (or special). Kim Possible found herself travelling from one "faux" show to another when Drakken and Shego created some weapon that would do that. Timmy Turner (Fairly Odd Parents) also had a full-length TV movie where the characters were hopping from one show to another. Then there's that John Ritter movie where his character was also hopping from one show to another (and yes, he found himself very briefly on a show with two "familiar looking" women). --------------- ua-cam.com/video/ycVcurvRYqY/v-deo.html
I once made a fan theory that Stan Lee is actually playing a little-known DC character in all of his Marvel movie cameos. Started out as a joke, but now I'm convinced. Haha
This theory actually inspired me to find a connection between Gravity Falls and Steven Universe. In Gravity Falls a pen, clipboard and mug with a Mystery Shack question mark on it are sucked into a portal > In Rick and Morty these items fall out of a portal > In The Simpsons Rick and Morty crash into the Simpsons during a couch gag > In Family Guy's crossover episode The Simpsons Guy the Griffins and Simpsons are both in a court with Fred Flintstone as the judge > In The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy Fred Flintstone is defrosted from a block of ice in Billy's back yard > In Steven Universe Uncle Grandpa has a list of other Cartoon Network characters he's visited including Billy and Mandy
+Mathew Gibbons (Gaiash) Actually, you can connect the two a lot quicker, as Dipper, Mabel, and Connie all appear in the background in the anime short Little Witch Academia 2.
Junglehero127 No they look similar but aren't exactly the same. The colours are completely different for one thing. The Dipper lookalike has red hair, the Mabel lookalike has black hair and the Connie lookalike has lighter skin. It's a cool nod to the shows but too different to count.
I love the fan theory that Joel schumachers batman movies are actual movies inside of the Tim Burton movie franchise several years after batman retired. thats why they are so over the top and silly, because thats what movies would be like in Tim Burtons Gotham.
Kramer from "Seinfeld" appeared on an episode of "Mad About You," but in an episode of "Seinfeld," George was watching "Mad About You" on television, which means that "Seinfeld" and "Mad About You" both exist in the same universe, and at the same time, don't exist in the same universe. This also means that every show that ever crossed over with either of these shows (such as "The Dick Van Dyke Show" or "Friends") becomes part of the paradox. Have I blown your mind?
+Shawn Ravenfire Similarly on The Simpsons Matt Groening is famous for having made Futurama while multiple pieces of evidence confirm that The Simpsons existed in Futurama's past.
+Shawn Ravenfire Actually, the first half of this points to the main issue i have with the suggested scope of the hypothesis. To what extend are we talking about characters/locations/props made up by Tommy and to what extend are we talking about characters/locations/props Tommy just happens to have heard of. example: is Dr. 'appears in homicide' ever referred in that series as having worked in st. elsewhere (which according to its own ending never existed) or shown to exist, but not be a doctor, post-twist in st elsewhere. If neither, it would be entirely possible for Tommy to have imagined this doctor working in st elsewhere after having seen that particular homicide-episode. (it would limit the scope of Tommy's imagination but keep the 'it means that show also didn't happen'-impact as i doubt the name and face of the doctor would ever have hit the news (allowing tommy to get the character from tv, while still being 'real') ) The cigarette-brand example and in bobs video 'weyland yutani' could be bi-directionally decoupled. Simply because Tommy imagined someone smoking a brand he has heard of (instead of made up) doesn't devalue anyone/thing else smoking the same stuff. Interesting detail about the buffy-verse, connection. The Buffy-verse itsself is also implied to be a figment of imagination, of Buffy's imagination to be exact. (In season 6 iirc) Buffy spends parts of an episode in a mental institution, where she went to after spotting her first vampire (around the time of the movie, predating the series), doubting which world is actually real. While an explanation is given within the buffy-verse for this mental lapse (stung by a demon whose poison has such effects), not only did that previous mental-institution visit happen (in either version) but more importantly, the 'real'-verse option is shown to continue after Buffy decided to believe the Buffy-verse and (as a result) goes complete catatonic in 'real'-verse. (The diagnosis of this state being irreversable is shown, while if it was all the effect of the demon-poison, that world should have ceased to exist the moment she collapsed there) So no, 'Kramer playing the role of Kramer in mad about you' did not blow my mind, these things happen in a world completely imagined by a girl who can't communicate with the outside world in any way. Especially if she herself has been made up by a 10-year old boy. :P Slightly more serious (hopefully only slightly), such 'the universe might not actually be as big as the 'degrees of separation'-approach might imply'-details also hold for your paradox-verse. Not to mention the detail George would probably have no problem calling Kramer a fictional character. Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if Kramer would believe him. (might even watch the 'mad about you' episode he guest-roled in by winning a contest and consider that 'proof George was right about him'') That having been said, one thing your example does prove. the 'looking into fan-theories can be fun'-statement. (off to check the calvin/hobbs fightclub-prequel theory)
Similarly, there was a similar episode of Deep Space Nine where Captain Sisko is a writer creating the Star Trek universe (which the other writers suggested would end with finding out that it was a dream), and later finds himself in a mental institution having become obsessed with the story. He later finds out that the mental institution was a "false vision" created by the Pah Wraiths. Charmed also had Piper wake up in a mental hospital having imagined being a witch, but similarly, it was an illusion created by the demons to trick her into renouncing her powers. After thinking about Kramer a little more, I remembered that in the show, they were turning Seinfeld's life into a "show about nothing," where another guy was going to play Kramer. Of course, Kramer is himself based on a real person (Kenny Kramer). So Seinfeld may have created a sort of sit-com-inception crossing all universes including ours.
the theory doesn't hold up. Just because someone dreams about things, doesn't mean those things are only found in their dreams. for example, if I have a dream about idea channel content, doesn't mean idea channel, and anything interconnected to it, are figments of my imagination. it only means I had a dream about something that could be found in reality (arguments aside about what constitutes reality). If anything, the broad scope of characters involved in this hypothesis only stand to show that these... shows.. take place in the same universe. The fact that an autistic kid had a dream about a small fraction of these characters doesn't prove that the characters themselves were created in his mind.
+KharBrons But it still connects the Universe. Because even though you are right about something beeing not exclusive for your mind, it still presupposes that your dreams and the things causing/appearing in them are in the same Universe. Just like you and IdeaChannel are in the same Universe. So i that matter it still holds up.
+KharBrons Really being in Tommy Westphall's imagination is just the starting point and the icing on the cake. The real fun of the Tommy Westphall Hypothesis is finding how you can connect different shows to each other.
+KharBrons I'd think of it more like Tyler Durden in fight club. He only exists in the mind of the narrator, and so if anyone else in that world can see him/interact with him then they too must be part of the hallucination (only imaginary friends can see imaginary friends). So if the narrator sees person x talking to Tyler, and then person y talking to person x, person y must be imaginary as we've deduced that person x is imaginary. The question then arises about whether there are 2 versions of person x- one that see Tyler (imaginary) and one that doesn't (real, on which the imaginary one may be based). But then what are you basing the assumption that there are duplicate copies of someone on?
+KharBrons Largely you are correct to a degree. The idea with tommy is that it is heavily implied everything in the entire show was all in his head. That none of it including the few things that crossed into that show from others were real. So in that case everything in the show at least is clearly part of the dream, as for anything that crosses into it, sure that could have been stuff the kid picked up from his real world. It's just less fun that way.
I like doing this sort of thing with UA-camrs. Who has done collabs with each other and seeing how big the circle of friends get. Also this sounds like the whole 'six degrees away from' theory that says that you know some one who knows someone who knows someone who... knows any person in the world.
I would argue that characters who showed up on St. Elsewhere wouldn't count since they could have just been characters that he saw somewhere else and added them to his story. It does work the otherway though, if a character from his mind shows up somewhere else, then they would have to be set in his mind.
w00t, glad ya'll saved my comment so I can repost it! --- Fan theories are fun, sure, but at least for me, I need them to be artfully so. In the same way analysis, critique, fanfics, whatever, can be art, I like my fan theories to have to merit of that nature too. By this I mean that they have a level of thought and consideration put into them which I could hold up against the actual thing the fan theory is about. "It's all a dream!" theories, for instance, are boring and lazy--sure, anything could be a dream, you can never discredit that as an idea, but who cares? What does that add to the work? At least in the case of like Inception, the movie actually thematically deals with that as an idea, but otherwise it's a pointless question. I want to see the kind of fan theories that expand on and flesh out the world and characters in ways that, if they are true, then the work is made better. I think that's why the John Snow theory is so popular--if it turns out to be true, then it's clever and helps the story to make more sense and be more internally consistent. Fan theories are a group art project; and like all art, they can be more resonant with more people or less. I'd like to see them approached with effort, high standards, and intelligence, so that the "medium" of fan theory might evolve and grow (as it is doing, thanks to the internet and the popularity of videos like this about fan theory).
+Digibro Well, for one, excellent quality post. As to the actual point, I tend to agree, which is why I prefer to just look at the TWU as a grid of interconnected shows and ignore the delusion/fantasy aspect. It's still pretty awesome if that's all you take from it, I think.
Alright, this makes much more sense. The actor thing was so confusing. I don't think it really works with props, though. Tommy could have seen those cigarettes in real life and incorporated them into his fantasy. Therefore those shows take place not in Tommy's universe, but in the same universe as Tommy, which is slightly different.
Alternatives: It is likely, that Tommy included characters in his fantasy, he knew from real live. So a large number of lines can be drawn which series take place in Tommy's mind and which just inhabit the same Universe as he does. Furthermore: He could include fictional characters from series he watches on TV. So That leaves us with three categories of series: Those which take Place within the Universe Tommy creates, those which inhabit the same Universe as Tommy, and Those which are shown in this universe.
I really like the IDEA of the Westphall Hypothesis. After all, we KNOW that things like NCIS all take place in their same universe. My issue is with the fandom's execution and specifically the branching out into like product types. I can buy into the idea that when Roxanne Turner shows up looking EXACTLY like Roxanne Turner from St. Elsewhere and using the same NAME and obviously being the same character, one has to conclude that Homicide and St. Elsewhere are in the same universe. That's logical and for the writers to suggest they intended to imply anything different seems like silliness. But most product placements just don't do it for me. Most of the products are used for practical purposes because they're props and the names are already cleared through legal. Why create a new product name and have to worry about copywrighting the name and buying the website and, etc. etc... just reuse an old established prop. There's no intent by the writers to imply differently. They don't even KNOW what the baggage is that they're bringing into the show. Contast that with guest appearances. When a character guest stars on Frasier, a show that was a direct spin off of Cheers then the writer is implicitly (though maybe not consciously) stating that that character was also in the Cheers universe. It's a very interesting and very logical fan theory... I just think the implementation has succumbed to zeal.
I was doing this back in 2000. I wrote a novel in which all the sci-fi movies, books and TV serials all co-exist together so characters and situations from these works would collide and interact. It's called Terminal Crescendo and it's on sale now on Amazon Kindle!
You made a mistake with your Newhart >> Sabrina example thread, one that's very worth pointing out as it's coincidentally one of the most interesting threads on the chart. You conflated Newhart and the Bob Newhart show together into a single show. They're two seperate shows. The Bob Newhart Show is the one connected to the main chart via St Elsewhere, while Newhart in its entirety is a delusion of a character from the Bob Newhart show. Therefore everything linked into the grid via Newhart is a delusion twice over - the delusion of a person who only exists as part of a delusion. That is, if you buy into the delusion aspect of the TWU in the first place. I personally just like it as a web of interconnected tv shows, but I respect people who are into the delusion/fantasy aspect.
When he said they were going to talk about fan theories, I paused the video and ran/jumped around the room whisper-shrieking "YES! YES! YAAAAASSSSS!!!!"
I'm proud of you, Idea Channel. Not only owning up to mistakes, but rectifying them in a manner that itself is entertaining. I really enjoyed this episode. Props.
I just wanted to give props to the flawless transition between the footage from the first video, to footage from the re-released video. Not only was Mike's shirt the same, his hair, even his beard were the same, well done. The only way I could tell was the lighting on the re-released footage was ever so slightly brighter.
This theory kind of reminds me of how in the books of Kurt Vonnegut, many of the characters cross over from one book to another (Kilgore Trout from Breakfast of Champions to Slaughterhouse 5, and so forth), yet the various books can't possibly be within the same universe due to catastrophic events that take place within some of the books, and so forth. Same thing here, where some of the shows within the universe don't seem to be able to coexist.
Here's another situation to ponder. Super Mario Bros 2 (USA version) was all a dream in Mario's head, and even though he opened an eye in the credits, he went back to sleep. Since later Mario games have Shyguys and Birdo in them, perhaps he's still dreaming? Any crossovers would be a dream too, such as all the Smash Bros characters and Sonic. He imagined your pokemons. lol
+Wolfee Darkfang Assuming SMB2's plot isn't that the deposed kings of Subcon used their combine powers to bring the Mushroom Kingdom's heroes over via their dreams to save them, I think you have to consider how dreams work. Perhaps Shy Guys and Birdos appear in SMB 2 because of the his trauma in Yoshi's Island since Shy Guys are the main enemies and Birdos could be made interpretations of the Yoshis. Birdo for instance, never appears in the main games. Neither do shy guys outside of Yoshi's Island. SMB3 is confirmed to be a play though. Dreaming within a dream is awkward too (Dream Events in Mario & Sonic at Olympic Games) and I'm pretty sure the Smash Universe is separate machinations of children playing
@@malfaroangel3896 Good point. Yeah I've pondered it since I made my original comment. If I can have a dream with long dead relatives in them, mario could easily have dreams involving creatures that exist in his world but just never appeared in a prior game. The franchise was still new at the time anyway, and we only saw the world through marios perspective while the princess was captured.
+Sure, but patterns are almost by definition the products of minds, and outside minds, patterns don't exist. So if a mind sees a pattern, in a way it does exist.
Gravity Falls and Rick & Morty don't take place in the same universe, but their universes do cross over with easter egg, often coming through portals connecting to their universes.
Just checking in to point out that about a year ago, the Disney Channel show "Girl Meets World", which was a spin-off of the 1990's TGIF show "Boy Meets World" crossed over with several other Disney Channel shows. That now means that the entire Disney Channel Universe (yes, that's a thing; several of the shows try and cross over with each other at least yearly) is now connected to the TGIF universe, which is down in the lower right corner of the diagram shown at 3:50 . This "TV Universe" keeps getting bigger and bigger!!!!!! Nice discussion of this theory. I love it!!!!!!!
This Supernatural fanfic gives a slight idea for Tommy Westphall - even if it doesn't mention him by name - and it's a minor part of the story as a whole (most of it is spent with the Winchesters and the Special Victims Unit) but it's still hilarious. In the fanfic 'Demon Vacation', in a flashback it's stated that a demon possessed the Westphall kid before St Elsewhere started in '82 and spent several years using a djinn to trick the boy's dad into thinking he was a doctor at the hospital and did the same to the staff there. He had a whole bunch of snowglobes with people's souls trapped inside (you might need to know how Supernatural's djinns work to understand this) on top of video box sets inside his bedroom and used magic to manipulate others. It doesn't explain this theory by a long shot but it's still funny to read,
(originally written on the old video but by the time i finished typing the video went down) Okay, I really want comment responses on this because I feel isolated in this position and I feel like there must be a reason why, something I'm missing. I don't 'get' most fan theories, I don't find them in the slightest bit interesting, there are the occasional few that re-frame something so well and it almost becomes canonic but that to me feels like a tiny tiny minority. and i wouldn't put this theory in that category at all. first i should put my bias out there, i wasn't fond of this theory from pretty much second one and that very well could have warped my perception, the concept of something being all in someones head is totally trite to me. it's, for all intents and purposes, and it was all a dream. but my problem with the theory is a sort of 'so what' factor, i'm all for different interpretations of art, i think that's fabulous, but to me there has to be something to gain from that different perspective and i don't know what that is in this case. if 400 tv shows all exist in this kids imagination, well, i don't know. it seems like overselling a silly explanation about cross-overs.
+Bailey Holden But it's not about actors, it's about characters, brands and other things created for one show being in another. TV shows have crossovers and making these means that the two shows either share a universe or a multiverse (depends on how they cross over) and the idea of the Tommy Westphall Universe Hypothesis is seeing how many shows you can connect to each other using in universe connections to each other.
Mathew Gibbons right i'll edit the post later, i haven't seen the revised version of the video yet. but i don't think that really answers all my concerns about it though.
I get you! That's what I was thinking too! Because the theory that all these shows take place in a kids head does nothing to alter my understanding of their primary narratives, I'm stuck going "... and?" I love headcanons/theories that build on characters or analyze intentions because they change the way I view character actions, and therefore the core narrative. But the "Rapunzel is actually Elsa's COUSIN!" ones don't appeal to me at all.
Bailey Holden I haven't seen the old video yet and after I made my comment I saw a post that explained that the thing that was wrong about the old version was including actors. In this video he makes a point of saying "not actors".
I've always loved finding connections in the tv-universe, but this theory was well beyond that! The idea is (in my eyes) lovely, and a great way to find those satisfying moments of cultural connection. It doesn't really hold up, but it's a pretty neat lens.
I've always been fascinated by the idea of the crossover universe I heard called the "St. Elsewhereverse", though I do now prefer the Tommy Westphall Universe. It's just great fun to talk about and be amazed at, especially now with smartphones bringing the knowledge of the internet with you everywhere. I will say, I've never considered the props thing a factor. A lot of props get reused just because it's easier to use something that's already made than make a whole new prop, or worry about having to license or give free advertising to a real product. The cigarettes mentioned are a good example, and two other massive ones are the airline company with the worst safety record in history, Oceanic Airlines (Sometimes Oceanic Airways) from Lost, Castle, FlashForward, Fringe, and loads more, and that newspaper prop that shows up everywhere with the article about the missing woman, a warehouse burning and some bill going before the President. Most of the time these props are reused without thought, unlike having characters crossing over, which has to be a deliberate, agreed upon action written into the script. Finally, one other reason I don't agree with using props to connect series is this: In Castle, Rick Castle has the part from a Firefly class ship that breaks in the episode "Out of Gas", an obvious gag as Nathan Fillion is in both, but suggestion that props lead to crossover evidence means that Firefly takes place before Castle in that universe, yet Firefly is based in the distant future. Then again, it's all in the mind of a young boy with autism. Who says things have to happen in chronological order? Oh... Oh dear. I just thought of this now... If it is all in the mind of a young boy with autism, then maybe the repeated recurrences of the same props shows a limit to his imagination on the small details, instead focusing on the characters and stories... Oh. Oh my... Mind blown!
This is exactly why I love role playing on the internet, which with the introduction of Social Media has taken a HUGE step forward, with people creating blogs or social profiles for characters in TV and taking them forward and beyond what we see on TV. I definitely believe that the two phenomena (internet RPs and fan theories) are intrincately linked as they serve to gap and reinterpret the lore surrounding them, which is kind of what myths and folklore do.
I looked at the map of this universe and noticed that The Office US was on it, however, I also noticed that Battlestar Galactica was there too, which immediately made me start thinking of Dwight's obsession with that show. This made me wonder, how could both shows take place in the same universe if one show is constantly referenced to in the other?
So I take it a lot of this is based on connections via "Morley cigarettes"? Look, I get that character crossovers are valid connections, but fake name brands are basically easter eggs, and many people who are into these sorts of theories (myself included) don't like to count easter eggs as links.
Also, any connections made only via non-character crossovers, although they do place them in the same universe, do not necessitate that such shows are inventions of Tommy Westphall, for it is possible that Tommy simply incorporated those aspects of his world (i.e. the "Morley" name brand) into his thoughts.
What about fake products and places that are featured in movies/tv shows made by the same people? Like Kevin smiths works. Do those gain more credence because it's a higher probability that the creator wants you to make that connection?
Okay so a lot of memes have been made of TV characters, so it's safe to say at least some of those memes are of characters in the Tommy Westphall universe. It's also not a stretch to say that they the Know Your Meme videos took place in a world where internet memes are REAL, as in they are essentially physical entities. Mike played more or less himself in KYM, and now he plays more or less himself for PBS Idea Channel. He's done collaborations with VSauce, Mental Floss, The Needle Drop, and I might be missing a few more. Those channels subsequently have done dozens of crossover videos. So basically all of UA-cam is in the Tommy Westphall universe.
Let us not forget *Let's Chips.* They're all over TV shows: [from _Community_ ] Dean Pelton: If you don't like the crispy-licious taste of Let's, feel free to eat that other greasy brand. Troy: [Eating a bag of Let's] Splingles? Not this guy.
Wow, I've watched both versions of this episode and I have to say, it was a lot more interesting when you got the hypothesis right! Good on you for making the effort to fully address your mistake. :-)
I think an interesting aspect of fan theories is the idea of head-canon. These are generally ideas that are, by admission, completely unverifiable, but make enough sense or fit so well that someone chooses to think of them as true because, for that person, they make the story better. Some head-canons could be called fan theories, because they are put together from details from the original work. But some head-canons are just imagined moments or stories that involve these characters and there is no basis for believing that they ever happened. But people choose to believe in them because they give you new ways of looking at characters or re-contextualize the story.
Oh wow this is pretty amazing, I love fan theories. I remember watching an hour long video on a Mass Effect indoctrination fan theory even though I never even played the games. There's something special about people going out of their way to notice the smallest of details and giving them a lot of importance, creating a completely new backstory. Can't wait for more videos.
BUFFY SPOILERS It's revealed in Buffy that the whole universe is possibly just in Buffy's head while she sits in an insane asylum. So, if this is true, and if the Buffyverse is part of the Tommy Westphall Universe, then Tommy imagined a universe in which someone imagined a universe. Freaking. Awesome.
Damn you, Mike, I literally went nuts just from you dropping the Calvin+Fight club theory... * Rushes to google it, hands shaking out of conspiratious awe *
+Pedro Scoponi Isn't it so good! I think the intertextual fan theories are my favorites. Calvin and Hobbes + FightClub, Tommy Westphall, James Bond is a Timelord, Great Gatsby is an alternate timeline where Jack from Titantic survives...
+PBS Idea Channel there is a life recording of a cracked podcast where they discuss various fan theories my personal faforite (i thought it up myself though i'm probably not the first): malcom from malcom in the middle is mr white from breaking bad (brilliant, cynical, grey morality, hates his mom, he'd look like his dad)
I personally believe that Obi Wan Kenobi is an undercover Sith Lord. He let his 'master' die while fighting a Sith Lord that was apparently too strong for the both of them but not strong enough for him. He trained Darth Vader. He left him in agonizing pain after telling him his wife and child died (Falsely) He squatted in Vaders old neighborhood, watched his son grow up, and when his son was trying to make his presence to the empire known... Kills his family ('Only imperial Stormtroopers are that accurate', yeah, right). Takes him to a bar, picks a fight, gets a pilot and flies them directly to Darth Vader. Note, like Vader, he trained him enough to be cocky. Waits until Luke is around the corner to challenge Vader. Throws the fight, and died. Just the motivation to set Luke on the dark side or... More likely get killed by Vader.
I'm so happy to see you guys correct yourselves on this one; it shows a real commitment to integrity over pride, and I appreciate that! Also, the original video's assertion that the Westphall verse was based on actors bugged the hell out of me! :P
What I love most about fan theories is that it gives a space for fandoms to interact, debate and argue about what they believe is happening. There's a certain sort of pride you get when you figure out a major plot point in a story based on loose evidence put in by the creators. A great example of this is in Life is Strange where GeekRemix figured out who the bad guy was after just one episode of game play. There's nothing better than sitting in a forum with a bunch of other people trying to scram together evidence to support a crazy theory. It really adds a fourth dimension to the media we consume.
It's interesting to think that certain TV shows are all happening in the same universe. There's certainly no reason why they couldn't, but to think that it's all imagined would both be impossible, and explain a lot of the bizarre continuity of certain shows. For instance, if we consider both the idea that the Westphall Hypothesis is true and that the Shared Universe Hypothesis is true, that leaves us with an both an imagined world, which explains why so many crises and murders can happen (The imagined world is just repopulating itself all the time), why so many plot-points sometimes repeat themselves across and inside shows, why characters sometimes appear out of nowhere and vanish without explanation, and why certain characters wind up acting completely different from one season to the next. On the other hand, in the Shared Universe Hypothesis, we have a world suffering from massive amounts of crime and terrorism. That world would have to have a MASSIVE population for that to be the case. And it would also have to be suffering from either the same kind of stretched-out timescale the Marvel universe has, or it would have to have a Doctor Who-esque method of erasing history.
Some of these "connections" are extremely tenuous. I just looked it up and the reason BattleStar Galactica is included is because a ship that looks kind of like a Firefly class is briefly on screen for a moment in BattleStar Galactica (2003 version). That isn't a crossover that is an easter egg. It is just a fun thing for people who pause shows to study the backgrounds.
+latieraeve In this corrected version, it's more about direct 'character' or environmental crossovers (like the cigarettes) than just if the actors from one show appear in another show.
my initial thought with this hypothesis is that it's completely possible for people to have fantasies about real people or characters they've seen in tv shows - which means what could be happening here is that Tommy is having a fantasy about a group of people he knows from different contexts existing in the same space, our that he actually exists in *our* universe and is fantasizing about what would happen if a group of characters he's seen in different shows hung out together (sort of like fan fic)
One thing I really like about this theory is that perfect continuity matters very little between all the shows connected, especially if they are connected by longer chains. Because the imagination itself is nonlinear and sometimes inconsistent, contradictions could even be expected within the 'universe'.
At 6:55 wrong choice of words Mike - and Ian. Theories cannot prove anything because they themselves can never be proved. Also, as the name says, the 'Tommy Westphall Hypothesis' is a hypothesis, not a theory meaning a test has to be carried out to determine whether this hypothesis holds up (although this has probably been done to death by all the fans of St Elsewhere). But, y'know, just saying.
Okay, now I get why you removed it, and I approve because you put it back up. Geez... I feel like I'm going crazy lately because every video I try to watch I get several private videos that I cannot watch and makes me syad ;~;
I love the Tommy Westphall Universe Hypothesis because I've seen first-hand how imaginative and deep an autistic person can go with story and character development and hence, can easily believe it to be possible. I have a friend who is mildly autistic and he decided he wanted to try DM'inga DnD-type game (Numenera if you're curious). It was one of the best experiences I've had because he gave us extremely free reign with what we could do to the point it was open world. Why? Because he had basically planned for every contingency imaginable. I'm not even kidding. After the campaign ended he showed me this sheet with possible event deviations and it was like this amazing tree chart where ends connected to certain others in a long pathway. There were multiple endings based off key events and he stated that our ending we got had a 5% chance of occurring out of all the endings he had written (of which there were about 8 from memory).
Awww, I was hoping one of the fan theories you'd have an episode for is that glorious Calvin & Hobbs becomes Fight Club one. Anyway, the Tommy Westphall Hypothesis isn't one I've ever put stock in, but it's definitely fun to see how far the proverbial rabbit hole goes. For instance how the Morley cigaretts prop has been used to link so many more shows into the hypothesis, finally wrangling in shows far outside the modern day era timeline. Such as that they appeared in Castle, and Castle himself dressed up as Malcolm Reynolds, so Firefly must also be in Westphall's head.
This is great because it is another reward for paying attention, which I love being rewarded. It makes me wonder if any shows are very modular or isolated. Also, if there is a child out there who does not know that TV is made of actors and one day sees an Ipad and comes up with their own tiny fan theory.
There is another possibility here: Alternate Universe counterparts. In the DC canon there is not just one Superman. There are lots, spread around countless alternate dimensions (or at least, there were) and in the same way just because a character appears on two shows it doesn't mean that they are the same VERSION of that character. They could merely be the version of said character native to that universe.
The thing with fan theories is that it also fill gaps. Take Doctor Who for example. How did all the Doctors knew to save Gallifrey, or what about the previous incarnations that are shown in the mind battle in The Brain of Morbius? Hundreds upon hundreds of fan theories exist trying to fill in the spaces the writers left empty. Some writers leave blank spaces intentionally because they know that, deep down, everybody loves a good fan theory. There are also many theories about how it's possible that some shows are recreations of things going on, or in the case of time-travel shows, things that will be going on.
+NerdOverlord Since Moffat's run, I think pretty much anything happens just because he says so, no matter how much or how little sense it makes. Cough, Amy and Rory's departure. I do agree with your main point though. It adds towards the suspense and keeps the viewers hooked.
Something I heard about science articles was 'If the title of your article is a question that can be answered with the word No, then don't write it' No of course they're not set in the same universe.
In my mind (pun intended) we can only definitively conflate universes whose connecting crossover is "confirmed canon". If a creator says "this crossover is 100% canon" then they definitely share a universe. If it's less clear than that, then they ~might~ share a universe. What I'm not sure of is whether a creator could say "since we're crossing over, their canon is our canon EXCLUDING their crossovers." Does cohabiting a canon give an author the ability to speak authoritatively about the other half of the canon as it pertains to their own half?
I think it's actually more interesting if you assume that the Westphall hypothesis is correct, but not because of conscious action by the writers and creators of those shows, but is an organic thing that comes out of how tv shows are made. I think it's cool to think that these fan theories can become "cannon", even if the original author hadn't intended it that way.
Glad to see some merch from one of my favorite YT shows! I was a little disappointed that you wern't going to talk about the "Indoctrination Theory" from the Mass Effect universe, seeing as a whipped an entire fan base into a frenzy for a short time. But maybe next year. See you next week.
The main advantage of the Tommy Westfall theory is that Tommy Westfall is purely a framing device. All of those links between shows already exist without that.
I'm curious to know how Hannibal fits into this. According to the chart linked in the description, Dead Like Me also is part of this universe, however it's later hinted at that the entirety of that show (and by extension the rest of the Fullerverse) exists within the mind of Georgia Madchen, a minor character in the first season of Hannibal- a show that is otherwise unrelated to the rest of this weird universe/thing. Since you can't connect Hannibal to the rest of the shows in any other way (or at least, no one has found such a connection as of time of writing), this would make Hannibal the starting point for the theory, and the "universe" would work its way down from there by way of Georgia Madchen/Lass.
I heard a theory based on this theory, according to this Star Trek and a bunch of other sci-fi shows and Buffy plus a bunch of other supernatural shows take place in the same universe but there are very few supernatural things in those sci-fi shows. In a buffy comic spin-off "Fray" we see that vampires and monsters are almost extinct in the future which explains why in Star Trek we only see a few unexplained supernatural creatures like Q because they have gone into hiding. Shows like the X-files show that aliens and the Supernatural both exist in this universe
You see, the ultimate problem with this is that it assumes that the characters in Tommy's mind are in fact the original characters. If those TV shows exist in Tommy's universe (not the one in his mind, the one in which he lives), why wouldn't he insert these characters into his imagined universe? Sort of like a crossover fanfiction.
Funnily enough, this would make a great idea for a tv show. Like one person realizes he is being imagined by Tommy Westphall. And then travels between universes to do...things.
Some cartoons have done this for one episode (or special). Kim Possible found herself travelling from one "faux" show to another when Drakken and Shego created some weapon that would do that. Timmy Turner (Fairly Odd Parents) also had a full-length TV movie where the characters were hopping from one show to another. Then there's that John Ritter movie where his character was also hopping from one show to another (and yes, he found himself very briefly on a show with two "familiar looking" women). ---------------
ua-cam.com/video/ycVcurvRYqY/v-deo.html
Thats basically what ready player one was
and it was shit
so no after that i dont think it can be done well
Mr. Robot Season 4 teaser ua-cam.com/video/grBGZmveJSs/v-deo.html
That would be expensive
To kill Tommy Westphall.
I once made a fan theory that Stan Lee is actually playing a little-known DC character in all of his Marvel movie cameos. Started out as a joke, but now I'm convinced. Haha
he's the Impossible Man!!!!! ooooh good one!
nope, he's the watcher
that's a real theory online. look it up
crazyjohnb22 I know it is. I made a video about that theory, and I don't really believe it to be true. There's not a ton of evidence to support it.
+NerdSync ohh wow, your pretty big as a youtuber my bad.
That is a VERY excellent, and I find spot-on explanation of fan-theories.
dude never gonna find you here so im gonna ask you. Can you make pokemon video about pokemon with unrealistic weight for the pokemon. please.
I'm here after the whole "MCU is empty video"
OperationSpider same. Cause I’m an I love Lucy fan and when he mentioned it I was like wtf
Lol what a shitshow
Same. xd
Same
Terrible video but i’m glad he introduced it to me.
This theory actually inspired me to find a connection between Gravity Falls and Steven Universe.
In Gravity Falls a pen, clipboard and mug with a Mystery Shack question mark on it are sucked into a portal > In Rick and Morty these items fall out of a portal > In The Simpsons Rick and Morty crash into the Simpsons during a couch gag > In Family Guy's crossover episode The Simpsons Guy the Griffins and Simpsons are both in a court with Fred Flintstone as the judge > In The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy Fred Flintstone is defrosted from a block of ice in Billy's back yard > In Steven Universe Uncle Grandpa has a list of other Cartoon Network characters he's visited including Billy and Mandy
+Mathew Gibbons (Gaiash) Don't think you finished your comment there
+Mathew Gibbons (Gaiash) Actually, you can connect the two a lot quicker, as Dipper, Mabel, and Connie all appear in the background in the anime short Little Witch Academia 2.
Junglehero127 Those are more of reference designs than the actual ones though.
Not really. They look exactly like the ones from the actual shows so I think it counts
Junglehero127 No they look similar but aren't exactly the same. The colours are completely different for one thing. The Dipper lookalike has red hair, the Mabel lookalike has black hair and the Connie lookalike has lighter skin.
It's a cool nod to the shows but too different to count.
Are 400+ TV Shows Happening In The Same Universe?
Yes, in our universe, as shows.
🤯
I love the fan theory that Joel schumachers batman movies are actual movies inside of the Tim Burton movie franchise several years after batman retired. thats why they are so over the top and silly, because thats what movies would be like in Tim Burtons Gotham.
This idea appeals to me. Very good.
I like this Theory.
Kramer from "Seinfeld" appeared on an episode of "Mad About You," but in an episode of "Seinfeld," George was watching "Mad About You" on television, which means that "Seinfeld" and "Mad About You" both exist in the same universe, and at the same time, don't exist in the same universe. This also means that every show that ever crossed over with either of these shows (such as "The Dick Van Dyke Show" or "Friends") becomes part of the paradox. Have I blown your mind?
+Shawn Ravenfire Unless, perhaps, if "Mad About You" was a documentary or reality TV show in that shared universe. Would that work?
+Shawn Ravenfire Kramer could've won a competition or some such and gotten to act as himself in "Mad about you".
+Shawn Ravenfire Similarly on The Simpsons Matt Groening is famous for having made Futurama while multiple pieces of evidence confirm that The Simpsons existed in Futurama's past.
+Shawn Ravenfire Actually, the first half of this points to the main issue i have with the suggested scope of the hypothesis.
To what extend are we talking about characters/locations/props made up by Tommy and to what extend are we talking about characters/locations/props Tommy just happens to have heard of.
example: is Dr. 'appears in homicide' ever referred in that series as having worked in st. elsewhere (which according to its own ending never existed) or shown to exist, but not be a doctor, post-twist in st elsewhere.
If neither, it would be entirely possible for Tommy to have imagined this doctor working in st elsewhere after having seen that particular homicide-episode. (it would limit the scope of Tommy's imagination but keep the 'it means that show also didn't happen'-impact as i doubt the name and face of the doctor would ever have hit the news (allowing tommy to get the character from tv, while still being 'real') )
The cigarette-brand example and in bobs video 'weyland yutani' could be bi-directionally decoupled. Simply because Tommy imagined someone smoking a brand he has heard of (instead of made up) doesn't devalue anyone/thing else smoking the same stuff.
Interesting detail about the buffy-verse, connection.
The Buffy-verse itsself is also implied to be a figment of imagination, of Buffy's imagination to be exact.
(In season 6 iirc) Buffy spends parts of an episode in a mental institution, where she went to after spotting her first vampire (around the time of the movie, predating the series), doubting which world is actually real. While an explanation is given within the buffy-verse for this mental lapse (stung by a demon whose poison has such effects), not only did that previous mental-institution visit happen (in either version) but more importantly, the 'real'-verse option is shown to continue after Buffy decided to believe the Buffy-verse and (as a result) goes complete catatonic in 'real'-verse. (The diagnosis of this state being irreversable is shown, while if it was all the effect of the demon-poison, that world should have ceased to exist the moment she collapsed there)
So no, 'Kramer playing the role of Kramer in mad about you' did not blow my mind, these things happen in a world completely imagined by a girl who can't communicate with the outside world in any way. Especially if she herself has been made up by a 10-year old boy. :P
Slightly more serious (hopefully only slightly), such 'the universe might not actually be as big as the 'degrees of separation'-approach might imply'-details also hold for your paradox-verse.
Not to mention the detail George would probably have no problem calling Kramer a fictional character. Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if Kramer would believe him. (might even watch the 'mad about you' episode he guest-roled in by winning a contest and consider that 'proof George was right about him'')
That having been said, one thing your example does prove.
the 'looking into fan-theories can be fun'-statement.
(off to check the calvin/hobbs fightclub-prequel theory)
Similarly, there was a similar episode of Deep Space Nine where Captain Sisko is a writer creating the Star Trek universe (which the other writers suggested would end with finding out that it was a dream), and later finds himself in a mental institution having become obsessed with the story. He later finds out that the mental institution was a "false vision" created by the Pah Wraiths. Charmed also had Piper wake up in a mental hospital having imagined being a witch, but similarly, it was an illusion created by the demons to trick her into renouncing her powers.
After thinking about Kramer a little more, I remembered that in the show, they were turning Seinfeld's life into a "show about nothing," where another guy was going to play Kramer. Of course, Kramer is himself based on a real person (Kenny Kramer). So Seinfeld may have created a sort of sit-com-inception crossing all universes including ours.
the theory doesn't hold up. Just because someone dreams about things, doesn't mean those things are only found in their dreams.
for example, if I have a dream about idea channel content, doesn't mean idea channel, and anything interconnected to it, are figments of my imagination. it only means I had a dream about something that could be found in reality (arguments aside about what constitutes reality).
If anything, the broad scope of characters involved in this hypothesis only stand to show that these... shows.. take place in the same universe. The fact that an autistic kid had a dream about a small fraction of these characters doesn't prove that the characters themselves were created in his mind.
+KharBrons But it still connects the Universe. Because even though you are right about something beeing not exclusive for your mind, it still presupposes that your dreams and the things causing/appearing in them are in the same Universe. Just like you and IdeaChannel are in the same Universe. So i that matter it still holds up.
+KharBrons Really being in Tommy Westphall's imagination is just the starting point and the icing on the cake. The real fun of the Tommy Westphall Hypothesis is finding how you can connect different shows to each other.
+KharBrons This is what I'm thinking myself. Honestly, the theory seems to connect the worlds better if you do not invoke Tommy's imagination.
+KharBrons I'd think of it more like Tyler Durden in fight club. He only exists in the mind of the narrator, and so if anyone else in that world can see him/interact with him then they too must be part of the hallucination (only imaginary friends can see imaginary friends).
So if the narrator sees person x talking to Tyler, and then person y talking to person x, person y must be imaginary as we've deduced that person x is imaginary. The question then arises about whether there are 2 versions of person x- one that see Tyler (imaginary) and one that doesn't (real, on which the imaginary one may be based). But then what are you basing the assumption that there are duplicate copies of someone on?
+KharBrons Largely you are correct to a degree. The idea with tommy is that it is heavily implied everything in the entire show was all in his head. That none of it including the few things that crossed into that show from others were real. So in that case everything in the show at least is clearly part of the dream, as for anything that crosses into it, sure that could have been stuff the kid picked up from his real world. It's just less fun that way.
I'm waiting for the Idea Channel/Game Theory crossover.
ft NerdSync. yea. me too.
+NerdSync I am pretty sure that has already happened.
+NerdSync More like Film Theory, in this case. But yes, many yes!
Did it really?!
+NerdSync "Here's a theory" and "But that's just an Idea. A GAME IDEA. Thank's for watching"
I like doing this sort of thing with UA-camrs. Who has done collabs with each other and seeing how big the circle of friends get.
Also this sounds like the whole 'six degrees away from' theory that says that you know some one who knows someone who knows someone who... knows any person in the world.
+Robert Trone Does it make it more or less complicated that me, Wheezy and Michael from VSauce are all actually the same person?
+PBS Idea Channel Oh! Now it makes so much more sense! Thanks now some annoying loose ends are tied up.
+Robert Trone someone needs to map every UA-camr and link everyone ^^
LazyMasterGamer That would be amazing
Robert Trone or like a community thing so everyone could add a link which would be faster like wikipedia ^^
I would argue that characters who showed up on St. Elsewhere wouldn't count since they could have just been characters that he saw somewhere else and added them to his story. It does work the otherway though, if a character from his mind shows up somewhere else, then they would have to be set in his mind.
w00t, glad ya'll saved my comment so I can repost it! --- Fan theories are fun, sure, but at least for me, I need them to be artfully so. In the same way analysis, critique, fanfics, whatever, can be art, I like my fan theories to have to merit of that nature too. By this I mean that they have a level of thought and consideration put into them which I could hold up against the actual thing the fan theory is about.
"It's all a dream!" theories, for instance, are boring and lazy--sure, anything could be a dream, you can never discredit that as an idea, but who cares? What does that add to the work? At least in the case of like Inception, the movie actually thematically deals with that as an idea, but otherwise it's a pointless question. I want to see the kind of fan theories that expand on and flesh out the world and characters in ways that, if they are true, then the work is made better. I think that's why the John Snow theory is so popular--if it turns out to be true, then it's clever and helps the story to make more sense and be more internally consistent.
Fan theories are a group art project; and like all art, they can be more resonant with more people or less. I'd like to see them approached with effort, high standards, and intelligence, so that the "medium" of fan theory might evolve and grow (as it is doing, thanks to the internet and the popularity of videos like this about fan theory).
+Digibro Well, for one, excellent quality post. As to the actual point, I tend to agree, which is why I prefer to just look at the TWU as a grid of interconnected shows and ignore the delusion/fantasy aspect. It's still pretty awesome if that's all you take from it, I think.
sHUT UP DIGI
Alright, this makes much more sense. The actor thing was so confusing. I don't think it really works with props, though. Tommy could have seen those cigarettes in real life and incorporated them into his fantasy. Therefore those shows take place not in Tommy's universe, but in the same universe as Tommy, which is slightly different.
The infectiousness of Tommy's mind reminds me of Vonnegut's Ice-Nine from Cat's Cradle.
Alternatives:
It is likely, that Tommy included characters in his fantasy, he knew from real live. So a large number of lines can be drawn which series take place in Tommy's mind and which just inhabit the same Universe as he does.
Furthermore: He could include fictional characters from series he watches on TV.
So That leaves us with three categories of series: Those which take Place within the Universe Tommy creates, those which inhabit the same Universe as Tommy, and Those which are shown in this universe.
I really like the IDEA of the Westphall Hypothesis. After all, we KNOW that things like NCIS all take place in their same universe. My issue is with the fandom's execution and specifically the branching out into like product types. I can buy into the idea that when Roxanne Turner shows up looking EXACTLY like Roxanne Turner from St. Elsewhere and using the same NAME and obviously being the same character, one has to conclude that Homicide and St. Elsewhere are in the same universe. That's logical and for the writers to suggest they intended to imply anything different seems like silliness.
But most product placements just don't do it for me. Most of the products are used for practical purposes because they're props and the names are already cleared through legal. Why create a new product name and have to worry about copywrighting the name and buying the website and, etc. etc... just reuse an old established prop. There's no intent by the writers to imply differently. They don't even KNOW what the baggage is that they're bringing into the show.
Contast that with guest appearances. When a character guest stars on Frasier, a show that was a direct spin off of Cheers then the writer is implicitly (though maybe not consciously) stating that that character was also in the Cheers universe.
It's a very interesting and very logical fan theory... I just think the implementation has succumbed to zeal.
I've just heard about this theory for the first time and was delighted to see a PBS Idea Channel video on it, thank you for that. I miss this channel.
I was doing this back in 2000. I wrote a novel in which all the sci-fi movies, books and TV serials all co-exist together so characters and situations from these works would collide and interact. It's called Terminal Crescendo and it's on sale now on Amazon Kindle!
You made a mistake with your Newhart >> Sabrina example thread, one that's very worth pointing out as it's coincidentally one of the most interesting threads on the chart. You conflated Newhart and the Bob Newhart show together into a single show. They're two seperate shows. The Bob Newhart Show is the one connected to the main chart via St Elsewhere, while Newhart in its entirety is a delusion of a character from the Bob Newhart show. Therefore everything linked into the grid via Newhart is a delusion twice over - the delusion of a person who only exists as part of a delusion.
That is, if you buy into the delusion aspect of the TWU in the first place. I personally just like it as a web of interconnected tv shows, but I respect people who are into the delusion/fantasy aspect.
Your point is valid, but for the record, Mr. Carlin appeared on both St. Elsewhere and Newhart as well as The Bob Newhart Show.
When he said they were going to talk about fan theories, I paused the video and ran/jumped around the room whisper-shrieking "YES! YES! YAAAAASSSSS!!!!"
5:10
What if he saw those sigarettes on TV and included them in his imagionary universes?
I'm proud of you, Idea Channel. Not only owning up to mistakes, but rectifying them in a manner that itself is entertaining. I really enjoyed this episode. Props.
Sabrina the teenage witch is connected to boy meet world and girl meets world is a spin off of that which basically links it into most disney tv shows
I just wanted to give props to the flawless transition between the footage from the first video, to footage from the re-released video. Not only was Mike's shirt the same, his hair, even his beard were the same, well done. The only way I could tell was the lighting on the re-released footage was ever so slightly brighter.
This theory kind of reminds me of how in the books of Kurt Vonnegut, many of the characters cross over from one book to another (Kilgore Trout from Breakfast of Champions to Slaughterhouse 5, and so forth), yet the various books can't possibly be within the same universe due to catastrophic events that take place within some of the books, and so forth. Same thing here, where some of the shows within the universe don't seem to be able to coexist.
Here's another situation to ponder. Super Mario Bros 2 (USA version) was all a dream in Mario's head, and even though he opened an eye in the credits, he went back to sleep. Since later Mario games have Shyguys and Birdo in them, perhaps he's still dreaming? Any crossovers would be a dream too, such as all the Smash Bros characters and Sonic. He imagined your pokemons. lol
+Wolfee Darkfang Assuming SMB2's plot isn't that the deposed kings of Subcon used their combine powers to bring the Mushroom Kingdom's heroes over via their dreams to save them, I think you have to consider how dreams work. Perhaps Shy Guys and Birdos appear in SMB 2 because of the his trauma in Yoshi's Island since Shy Guys are the main enemies and Birdos could be made interpretations of the Yoshis. Birdo for instance, never appears in the main games. Neither do shy guys outside of Yoshi's Island. SMB3 is confirmed to be a play though. Dreaming within a dream is awkward too (Dream Events in Mario & Sonic at Olympic Games) and I'm pretty sure the Smash Universe is separate machinations of children playing
No cause you are assuming the creatures you see in the game Mario made up in his head. When they already exist in the Universe
@@malfaroangel3896 Good point. Yeah I've pondered it since I made my original comment. If I can have a dream with long dead relatives in them, mario could easily have dreams involving creatures that exist in his world but just never appeared in a prior game. The franchise was still new at the time anyway, and we only saw the world through marios perspective while the princess was captured.
Humans see patterns where none exist.
That's what I said to yo mamma.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHH
+Reionder Fukin Savage.
+Sure i imagined wayne saying this and then doing the thumbs up thing
+Sure If humans can see a pattern then it must exist because if not, humans wouldn't have been able to see them in the first place.
+Sure, but patterns are almost by definition the products of minds, and outside minds, patterns don't exist. So if a mind sees a pattern, in a way it does exist.
"I like to overthink pop culture" that would be perfect for a bumper sticker.
Gravity Falls and Rick & Morty don't take place in the same universe, but their universes do cross over with easter egg, often coming through portals connecting to their universes.
Just checking in to point out that about a year ago, the Disney Channel show "Girl Meets World", which was a spin-off of the 1990's TGIF show "Boy Meets World" crossed over with several other Disney Channel shows. That now means that the entire Disney Channel Universe (yes, that's a thing; several of the shows try and cross over with each other at least yearly) is now connected to the TGIF universe, which is down in the lower right corner of the diagram shown at 3:50 . This "TV Universe" keeps getting bigger and bigger!!!!!!
Nice discussion of this theory. I love it!!!!!!!
Since real people show up sometimes in some of these shows, WE are living in his universe too.
This Supernatural fanfic gives a slight idea for Tommy Westphall - even if it doesn't mention him by name - and it's a minor part of the story as a whole (most of it is spent with the Winchesters and the Special Victims Unit) but it's still hilarious.
In the fanfic 'Demon Vacation', in a flashback it's stated that a demon possessed the Westphall kid before St Elsewhere started in '82 and spent several years using a djinn to trick the boy's dad into thinking he was a doctor at the hospital and did the same to the staff there. He had a whole bunch of snowglobes with people's souls trapped inside (you might need to know how Supernatural's djinns work to understand this) on top of video box sets inside his bedroom and used magic to manipulate others.
It doesn't explain this theory by a long shot but it's still funny to read,
I like how you used my example as your primary example, thanks for listening!
Who is here from VOX?
(originally written on the old video but by the time i finished typing the video went down)
Okay, I really want comment responses on this because I feel isolated in this position and I feel like there must be a reason why, something I'm missing. I don't 'get' most fan theories, I don't find them in the slightest bit interesting, there are the occasional few that re-frame something so well and it almost becomes canonic but that to me feels like a tiny tiny minority.
and i wouldn't put this theory in that category at all. first i should put my bias out there, i wasn't fond of this theory from pretty much second one and that very well could have warped my perception, the concept of something being all in someones head is totally trite to me. it's, for all intents and purposes, and it was all a dream.
but my problem with the theory is a sort of 'so what' factor, i'm all for different interpretations of art, i think that's fabulous, but to me there has to be something to gain from that different perspective and i don't know what that is in this case. if 400 tv shows all exist in this kids imagination, well, i don't know. it seems like overselling a silly explanation about cross-overs.
+Bailey Holden But it's not about actors, it's about characters, brands and other things created for one show being in another. TV shows have crossovers and making these means that the two shows either share a universe or a multiverse (depends on how they cross over) and the idea of the Tommy Westphall Universe Hypothesis is seeing how many shows you can connect to each other using in universe connections to each other.
Mathew Gibbons right i'll edit the post later, i haven't seen the revised version of the video yet. but i don't think that really answers all my concerns about it though.
I get you! That's what I was thinking too! Because the theory that all these shows take place in a kids head does nothing to alter my understanding of their primary narratives, I'm stuck going "... and?" I love headcanons/theories that build on characters or analyze intentions because they change the way I view character actions, and therefore the core narrative. But the "Rapunzel is actually Elsa's COUSIN!" ones don't appeal to me at all.
Bailey Holden I haven't seen the old video yet and after I made my comment I saw a post that explained that the thing that was wrong about the old version was including actors. In this video he makes a point of saying "not actors".
+Bailey Holden while i really like fan theories, i had the same 'so what' reaction when it came to the tommy westphall hypothesis.
I've always loved finding connections in the tv-universe, but this theory was well beyond that! The idea is (in my eyes) lovely, and a great way to find those satisfying moments of cultural connection. It doesn't really hold up, but it's a pretty neat lens.
I've always been fascinated by the idea of the crossover universe I heard called the "St. Elsewhereverse", though I do now prefer the Tommy Westphall Universe. It's just great fun to talk about and be amazed at, especially now with smartphones bringing the knowledge of the internet with you everywhere.
I will say, I've never considered the props thing a factor. A lot of props get reused just because it's easier to use something that's already made than make a whole new prop, or worry about having to license or give free advertising to a real product. The cigarettes mentioned are a good example, and two other massive ones are the airline company with the worst safety record in history, Oceanic Airlines (Sometimes Oceanic Airways) from Lost, Castle, FlashForward, Fringe, and loads more, and that newspaper prop that shows up everywhere with the article about the missing woman, a warehouse burning and some bill going before the President.
Most of the time these props are reused without thought, unlike having characters crossing over, which has to be a deliberate, agreed upon action written into the script.
Finally, one other reason I don't agree with using props to connect series is this: In Castle, Rick Castle has the part from a Firefly class ship that breaks in the episode "Out of Gas", an obvious gag as Nathan Fillion is in both, but suggestion that props lead to crossover evidence means that Firefly takes place before Castle in that universe, yet Firefly is based in the distant future. Then again, it's all in the mind of a young boy with autism. Who says things have to happen in chronological order?
Oh... Oh dear. I just thought of this now... If it is all in the mind of a young boy with autism, then maybe the repeated recurrences of the same props shows a limit to his imagination on the small details, instead focusing on the characters and stories... Oh. Oh my... Mind blown!
You guys should discuss The Pixar Theory
yes but the pixar theory idk actually makes sense?
But even Pixar is connected to family guy too
@@Unseenone445 bro i posted this comment 5 years ago
This is exactly why I love role playing on the internet, which with the introduction of Social Media has taken a HUGE step forward, with people creating blogs or social profiles for characters in TV and taking them forward and beyond what we see on TV.
I definitely believe that the two phenomena (internet RPs and fan theories) are intrincately linked as they serve to gap and reinterpret the lore surrounding them, which is kind of what myths and folklore do.
Brave thing, sir, admitting that you were wrong on the internet. I commend you for it.
The Flash is part of the Westphall universe, but they talk about Breaking Bad on the show, which is also part of the Westphall universe.
I looked at the map of this universe and noticed that The Office US was on it, however, I also noticed that Battlestar Galactica was there too, which immediately made me start thinking of Dwight's obsession with that show. This made me wonder, how could both shows take place in the same universe if one show is constantly referenced to in the other?
Dwight can hop between universes.
So I take it a lot of this is based on connections via "Morley cigarettes"?
Look, I get that character crossovers are valid connections, but fake name brands are basically easter eggs, and many people who are into these sorts of theories (myself included) don't like to count easter eggs as links.
Also, any connections made only via non-character crossovers, although they do place them in the same universe, do not necessitate that such shows are inventions of Tommy Westphall, for it is possible that Tommy simply incorporated those aspects of his world (i.e. the "Morley" name brand) into his thoughts.
What about fake products and places that are featured in movies/tv shows made by the same people? Like Kevin smiths works. Do those gain more credence because it's a higher probability that the creator wants you to make that connection?
Yeah, like "Sleepless in Seattle and Elf both feature the Empire State Building, so they're in the same universe!!!'! :O" It doesn't really hold up.
+Riley McKinley They're talking about fictional brands and locations, not real ones. Morley was a cigarette brand that was made up for the shows.
Okay so a lot of memes have been made of TV characters, so it's safe to say at least some of those memes are of characters in the Tommy Westphall universe. It's also not a stretch to say that they the Know Your Meme videos took place in a world where internet memes are REAL, as in they are essentially physical entities. Mike played more or less himself in KYM, and now he plays more or less himself for PBS Idea Channel. He's done collaborations with VSauce, Mental Floss, The Needle Drop, and I might be missing a few more. Those channels subsequently have done dozens of crossover videos. So basically all of UA-cam is in the Tommy Westphall universe.
Let us not forget *Let's Chips.* They're all over TV shows:
[from _Community_ ]
Dean Pelton: If you don't like the crispy-licious taste of Let's, feel free to eat that other greasy brand.
Troy: [Eating a bag of Let's] Splingles? Not this guy.
Wow, I've watched both versions of this episode and I have to say, it was a lot more interesting when you got the hypothesis right! Good on you for making the effort to fully address your mistake. :-)
I think an interesting aspect of fan theories is the idea of head-canon. These are generally ideas that are, by admission, completely unverifiable, but make enough sense or fit so well that someone chooses to think of them as true because, for that person, they make the story better. Some head-canons could be called fan theories, because they are put together from details from the original work. But some head-canons are just imagined moments or stories that involve these characters and there is no basis for believing that they ever happened. But people choose to believe in them because they give you new ways of looking at characters or re-contextualize the story.
That was a much more coherent theory than was presented in the first draft. Good job, folks.
It's starting to look like Continuum and Dark Matter take place in the same universe because of Roger Cross
I just want to say, Hooray for mentioning MovieBob. :D
To think with, and at...Wow...I think this is the core foundation of this channel and everything I love...
Oh wow this is pretty amazing, I love fan theories.
I remember watching an hour long video on a Mass Effect indoctrination fan theory even though I never even played the games.
There's something special about people going out of their way to notice the smallest of details and giving them a lot of importance, creating a completely new backstory.
Can't wait for more videos.
BUFFY SPOILERS
It's revealed in Buffy that the whole universe is possibly just in Buffy's head while she sits in an insane asylum. So, if this is true, and if the Buffyverse is part of the Tommy Westphall Universe, then Tommy imagined a universe in which someone imagined a universe. Freaking. Awesome.
Idea Channel might be visiting Ash in his Hospital bed.
I can't wait =^_^=
+BlankPicketSign We're gonna be visiting a looonnnnngggg list of people in hospital beds for one of these Fan Theory episodes... :D
PBS Idea Channel
Toot Tooooot!
Fan Theory Train is pulling in!!!
Thank you SO MUCH, this is going to be epic!
Ash Williams from Evil Dead
Damn you, Mike, I literally went nuts just from you dropping the Calvin+Fight club theory... * Rushes to google it, hands shaking out of conspiratious awe *
+Pedro Scoponi Isn't it so good! I think the intertextual fan theories are my favorites. Calvin and Hobbes + FightClub, Tommy Westphall, James Bond is a Timelord, Great Gatsby is an alternate timeline where Jack from Titantic survives...
+PBS Idea Channel there is a life recording of a cracked podcast where they discuss various fan theories
my personal faforite (i thought it up myself though i'm probably not the first): malcom from malcom in the middle is mr white from breaking bad (brilliant, cynical, grey morality, hates his mom, he'd look like his dad)
Batman is a Timelord, James Bond is a Timelord, everybody is a time lord, wow e.e'
+DrMustacho I've never thought about that!! It amazes me and scares me at the same time
+Pedro Scoponi I wish, because Timelords are cool!
I personally believe that Obi Wan Kenobi is an undercover Sith Lord.
He let his 'master' die while fighting a Sith Lord that was apparently too strong for the both of them but not strong enough for him.
He trained Darth Vader.
He left him in agonizing pain after telling him his wife and child died (Falsely)
He squatted in Vaders old neighborhood, watched his son grow up, and when his son was trying to make his presence to the empire known...
Kills his family ('Only imperial Stormtroopers are that accurate', yeah, right). Takes him to a bar, picks a fight, gets a pilot and flies them directly to Darth Vader.
Note, like Vader, he trained him enough to be cocky.
Waits until Luke is around the corner to challenge Vader.
Throws the fight, and died. Just the motivation to set Luke on the dark side or... More likely get killed by Vader.
I'm so happy to see you guys correct yourselves on this one; it shows a real commitment to integrity over pride, and I appreciate that!
Also, the original video's assertion that the Westphall verse was based on actors bugged the hell out of me! :P
What I love most about fan theories is that it gives a space for fandoms to interact, debate and argue about what they believe is happening. There's a certain sort of pride you get when you figure out a major plot point in a story based on loose evidence put in by the creators. A great example of this is in Life is Strange where GeekRemix figured out who the bad guy was after just one episode of game play. There's nothing better than sitting in a forum with a bunch of other people trying to scram together evidence to support a crazy theory. It really adds a fourth dimension to the media we consume.
It's interesting to think that certain TV shows are all happening in the same universe. There's certainly no reason why they couldn't, but to think that it's all imagined would both be impossible, and explain a lot of the bizarre continuity of certain shows.
For instance, if we consider both the idea that the Westphall Hypothesis is true and that the Shared Universe Hypothesis is true, that leaves us with an both an imagined world, which explains why so many crises and murders can happen (The imagined world is just repopulating itself all the time), why so many plot-points sometimes repeat themselves across and inside shows, why characters sometimes appear out of nowhere and vanish without explanation, and why certain characters wind up acting completely different from one season to the next.
On the other hand, in the Shared Universe Hypothesis, we have a world suffering from massive amounts of crime and terrorism. That world would have to have a MASSIVE population for that to be the case. And it would also have to be suffering from either the same kind of stretched-out timescale the Marvel universe has, or it would have to have a Doctor Who-esque method of erasing history.
There is also the brand of chips called "Let's" that appear in shows that are connected, connecting even more shows to that theory.
Some of these "connections" are extremely tenuous. I just looked it up and the reason BattleStar Galactica is included is because a ship that looks kind of like a Firefly class is briefly on screen for a moment in BattleStar Galactica (2003 version). That isn't a crossover that is an easter egg. It is just a fun thing for people who pause shows to study the backgrounds.
You had me with the wrong one, now my head hurts >___
+latieraeve In this corrected version, it's more about direct 'character' or environmental crossovers (like the cigarettes) than just if the actors from one show appear in another show.
so it wasnt wrong, just more information
+latieraeve Yeah..I'm kinda confused, too. No idea why the first video was "wrong", either.
my initial thought with this hypothesis is that it's completely possible for people to have fantasies about real people or characters they've seen in tv shows - which means what could be happening here is that Tommy is having a fantasy about a group of people he knows from different contexts existing in the same space, our that he actually exists in *our* universe and is fantasizing about what would happen if a group of characters he's seen in different shows hung out together (sort of like fan fic)
One thing I really like about this theory is that perfect continuity matters very little between all the shows connected, especially if they are connected by longer chains. Because the imagination itself is nonlinear and sometimes inconsistent, contradictions could even be expected within the 'universe'.
Stumbled on this for the first time in a long time, really missing Idea Channel!
I think it proves that the writers were out of ideas for that last episode of St. Elsewhere.
At 6:55 wrong choice of words Mike - and Ian. Theories cannot prove anything because they themselves can never be proved. Also, as the name says, the 'Tommy Westphall Hypothesis' is a hypothesis, not a theory meaning a test has to be carried out to determine whether this hypothesis holds up (although this has probably been done to death by all the fans of St Elsewhere).
But, y'know, just saying.
Imagine if the snow globe was also a music box and the St Elsewhere theme was played by the music box
Okay, now I get why you removed it, and I approve because you put it back up. Geez... I feel like I'm going crazy lately because every video I try to watch I get several private videos that I cannot watch and makes me syad ;~;
I love the Tommy Westphall Universe Hypothesis because I've seen first-hand how imaginative and deep an autistic person can go with story and character development and hence, can easily believe it to be possible.
I have a friend who is mildly autistic and he decided he wanted to try DM'inga DnD-type game (Numenera if you're curious). It was one of the best experiences I've had because he gave us extremely free reign with what we could do to the point it was open world. Why? Because he had basically planned for every contingency imaginable. I'm not even kidding. After the campaign ended he showed me this sheet with possible event deviations and it was like this amazing tree chart where ends connected to certain others in a long pathway. There were multiple endings based off key events and he stated that our ending we got had a 5% chance of occurring out of all the endings he had written (of which there were about 8 from memory).
Calvin and Hobbes is a prequel to Fight Club? You sir, just blew my mind.
Awww, I was hoping one of the fan theories you'd have an episode for is that glorious Calvin & Hobbs becomes Fight Club one.
Anyway, the Tommy Westphall Hypothesis isn't one I've ever put stock in, but it's definitely fun to see how far the proverbial rabbit hole goes. For instance how the Morley cigaretts prop has been used to link so many more shows into the hypothesis, finally wrangling in shows far outside the modern day era timeline. Such as that they appeared in Castle, and Castle himself dressed up as Malcolm Reynolds, so Firefly must also be in Westphall's head.
Glad you referenced the movie bob video. That was where I first heard of the TWUH, super fun watch.
This is great because it is another reward for paying attention, which I love being rewarded.
It makes me wonder if any shows are very modular or isolated. Also, if there is a child out there who does not know that TV is made of actors and one day sees an Ipad and comes up with their own tiny fan theory.
There is another possibility here: Alternate Universe counterparts.
In the DC canon there is not just one Superman. There are lots, spread around countless alternate dimensions (or at least, there were) and in the same way just because a character appears on two shows it doesn't mean that they are the same VERSION of that character. They could merely be the version of said character native to that universe.
Bravo, Mike! You've outdone yourself. Carry on.
The thing with fan theories is that it also fill gaps. Take Doctor Who for example. How did all the Doctors knew to save Gallifrey, or what about the previous incarnations that are shown in the mind battle in The Brain of Morbius? Hundreds upon hundreds of fan theories exist trying to fill in the spaces the writers left empty. Some writers leave blank spaces intentionally because they know that, deep down, everybody loves a good fan theory. There are also many theories about how it's possible that some shows are recreations of things going on, or in the case of time-travel shows, things that will be going on.
+NerdOverlord Since Moffat's run, I think pretty much anything happens just because he says so, no matter how much or how little sense it makes. Cough, Amy and Rory's departure. I do agree with your main point though. It adds towards the suspense and keeps the viewers hooked.
+NerdOverlord Sometimes when you try to fill in the gaps, it leads to things like midichlorians.
Something I heard about science articles was 'If the title of your article is a question that can be answered with the word No, then don't write it'
No of course they're not set in the same universe.
I was hoping you'd do an episode about this.
Thank you for a swift correction. I wonder how much overtime was done to write this new episode in a shorter amount of time.
This was my fav thread in the twisting the hellmouth forums years ago.
i simply love the "yeah" that ends the video
Great video. They are all gags when they bring in characters from other series into the shows. And that can be broken down by network.
So, what happens to TV and this big shared universe when Tommy Westphall dies?
Kelley L. O'Neill Every show will be cancelled
At least every show in the theory
I'm waiting eagerly for that Tetraforce video!
In my mind (pun intended) we can only definitively conflate universes whose connecting crossover is "confirmed canon". If a creator says "this crossover is 100% canon" then they definitely share a universe. If it's less clear than that, then they ~might~ share a universe. What I'm not sure of is whether a creator could say "since we're crossing over, their canon is our canon EXCLUDING their crossovers." Does cohabiting a canon give an author the ability to speak authoritatively about the other half of the canon as it pertains to their own half?
I think it's actually more interesting if you assume that the Westphall hypothesis is correct, but not because of conscious action by the writers and creators of those shows, but is an organic thing that comes out of how tv shows are made. I think it's cool to think that these fan theories can become "cannon", even if the original author hadn't intended it that way.
Since you use the word "doobly-doo" does that means that Idea Channel and the Vlogbrothers are in the same universe? Whoa. Mind blown.
Oh boy, this is awesome. I can't wait for next week!
Great video. I'm so excited for the other fan theory episodes. :D
Finding Tommy Westphall.
I never heard of this before but have wished for more crossover episodes in order to be able to piece "TV Land" together.
Glad to see some merch from one of my favorite YT shows! I was a little disappointed that you wern't going to talk about the "Indoctrination Theory" from the Mass Effect universe, seeing as a whipped an entire fan base into a frenzy for a short time. But maybe next year. See you next week.
Definitely using my day to study this
The main advantage of the Tommy Westfall theory is that Tommy Westfall is purely a framing device. All of those links between shows already exist without that.
I'm curious to know how Hannibal fits into this. According to the chart linked in the description, Dead Like Me also is part of this universe, however it's later hinted at that the entirety of that show (and by extension the rest of the Fullerverse) exists within the mind of Georgia Madchen, a minor character in the first season of Hannibal- a show that is otherwise unrelated to the rest of this weird universe/thing. Since you can't connect Hannibal to the rest of the shows in any other way (or at least, no one has found such a connection as of time of writing), this would make Hannibal the starting point for the theory, and the "universe" would work its way down from there by way of Georgia Madchen/Lass.
I heard a theory based on this theory, according to this Star Trek and a bunch of other sci-fi shows and Buffy plus a bunch of other supernatural shows take place in the same universe but there are very few supernatural things in those sci-fi shows. In a buffy comic spin-off "Fray" we see that vampires and monsters are almost extinct in the future which explains why in Star Trek we only see a few unexplained supernatural creatures like Q because they have gone into hiding. Shows like the X-files show that aliens and the Supernatural both exist in this universe
fair enough but how do you explain the walking dead happening at the same time.
You see, the ultimate problem with this is that it assumes that the characters in Tommy's mind are in fact the original characters. If those TV shows exist in Tommy's universe (not the one in his mind, the one in which he lives), why wouldn't he insert these characters into his imagined universe? Sort of like a crossover fanfiction.
........I honestly was not aware that this video was reuploaded (or "remade"?).