The h3 was actually a suv meant for a more optimal off-road base to compete with Jeeps. They were too late in the game to fix certain errors yet they had an amazing concept to grow off of but GMs buy out forced it out of line up. If you want an amazing pavement princess you will have to be happy with the cosmetics or alter. The other hand the off road capabilities are endless with a locking front and rear diff, ground clearance along with the hummers low end torque it actually puts jeeps to shame with style. I do every other weekend.
I HATE how the back seats fold down and the irresponsible use of space in this rig. all in all, I absolutely adore my H3. Also, the visibility out the back. All not deal breakers.
Thomas Cruz Agreed! Like I’ve tried putting boxes in the back, they fit great until they get to that lifted part on the back of the seat, and they no longer fit! Drives me nuts. I am used to the visibility now.
@@CHARacing381 OH MAN! The box thing gets me every time! The Visibility is okay. I got a backup cam and that really helps a lot. Other than that, it's the perfect rig.
@@michaelbjorkgren6959 sorry for the late response, life has kept me busy. I actually ended up trading it in and I should’ve just bought my truck, and kept the Hummer as a 2nd vehicle. I looked all over the place for it once it was gone. The transmission started slipping after towing my race car from Las Vegas back to Florida. I just didn’t have the time to deal with it, but it was noble until the day I sold it.
I'm actually shopping for an Alpha now. Waiting on replies from 2 people... might settle for the non-Alpha if the price is good. Thanks for the video. Been watching a bunch of H3 videos for a few days now. Peace.
Thanks for the video! I just looked at a 2011 with 95K.......a little clunky into reverse and I couldn't get the 4Lo to engage.......and water stains on the ceiling from a leaking sunroof! I was rather impressed, but the previous owner seemed to have had dogs (smelly and fur EVERYWHERE).........Thanks again!
Sorry for the later response bud, but yeah mine was also a pet owners lol. I pulled the seats out of it 2 weeks ago to clean it, and it STILL had dog hair all over the place!
I have an H3 Alpha, RHD, assembled in Port Elizabeth, South Africa, for local and RHD export markets like the UK and Australia. Our arent badged as Alphas and there are a number of differences. My handbrake is a twist mechanism under the dash and my rear view mirror has a screen which appears in the mirror itself when reverse is engaged. I have to agree with the chrome, its cheap and too much. I have seat covers but my seats are still in very good condition and nothing has broken. I do have the sunroof drain issue which is annoying. The trunk space is small compared to past vehicles but I overcame this by building an aluminium drawer system which ''doubles'' the floor area but yes, that step in the floor when dropping the rear seats doesnt make sense. The nets at the back of the front seats I ditched as the seat covers have built in pockets and nets anyway. All in all, a brilliant vehicle and I cant see myself driving anything else.
Sean Towlson Yours does seem really similar. It would be kind of cool to get some of those overseas options on mine. Just to have something different. What engine options did yours come with?
@@CHARacing381 I have the 5.3, assembled in 2010, the last year. Prior to that were the 3.7 5 cylinder units. There were 2 spec levels which you guys had, the Luxury and Adventure packs. Lux = no Locker, Adv = RDL. The V8 has FDL and RDL, same as yours with the 4:1 transfer case. We have quite an active club here and we manage to keep them running and doing what they were designed to do.
Very interesting actually, I've not seen those little problem details before so great job. I've been looking at getting a used one and I always see those seat buttons are demolished and now I know why. That rear seat not folding flat with a huge gap is really disappointing too. Great video bro
Erodthebod Other than those small things I think it’s an overall great vehicle. Mechanically it’s well sorted. Those buttons have been an issue since the early 2000’s GM vehicles started. But thank you on the complement my friend. If you have any other questions that I didn’t cover, feel free to ask. Thanks for watching.
Thanks for the video 👍🏽 What did you like better, the Jeep Commander or the H3? I’m considering picking up one of them soon. Love to hear your feedback.
It’s a hard call brother. The Jeep had WAY more comfortable features and tech. Mine was the limited V8 (not the hemi though). It had tons of power when towing, it was nicer driving on the road, much more useable interior space, tons of opened compartments to store things, etc. The bad was, building it for off road proved expensive, and ground clearance stock wasn’t much. The 4WD system is better in the Jeep in my opinion. But man it ALWAYS had some type of electrical issue going on. It wasn’t too reliable, or at least mine wasn’t, and it wasn’t cheap to fix either. The Hummer, is an easy to work on vehicle, with a lot of its parts not being too pricy for the common DIYer. Thankfully I can still get anything I need online, or at the dealership. Comfort is not the worst, but not nearly as good as the Jeep. The Hummer pretty well, but it would be nice to have an extra gear besides the 4 speed. It has pretty good ground clearance compared to the Jeep off road. However, It has the common GM bugs here and there but aren’t too bad or hard to fix. It’s much more reliable than the Jeep. The hummer is also pricy to do any type of off road mods due to its production being stopped. So if you want aftermarket lift kits, they are pretty expensive. Honestly it’s hard to pick between the two. It would be the Jeep for sure if I didn’t run into reliability issues though. I’d say drive them both for sure and you’ll find out which one you prefer.
@@CHARacing381 I really appreciate you taking the time to send me your detailed feedback. It absolutely helps. I’ll take your advice and find a way to test them both first. Lots of points to consider. Stay blessed brother👍🏽
Wow were you folks at. 1st time here . Just bought 2003 H2. A few little problems .water peck for now. Poured a lot. Alcohol peroxide, mix. Used it for years. Peroxide dissolves organics. Yes can be corrosive the alcohol dries up the water fast and cuts through grime also kills mold, so I poured that down the drains of the sunroof good news it all drained out found out where my drain tubes was and that’s all looking really good and clean up there do that once in a while and to keep them tubes cleaned out I’m still having a little water leak side of front door over unto carpets. Next redoing running lights. H2 was keep in good condition got a lot of paper work. But the gentleman just got older. H2 only has 127.000 mile. 2 owners. Paint Great 2 little dings new Goodyear Big freaking tires. I use gas from Costco. AAA is going to do strengthening the steering wheel. Why they think thy have to put it up in the air. Not. Sure about that .Ok going to watch all videos. Hope to find out were you folks are at. Maybe when it warms up would like to go to the city were these were made . See you in the next video. It’s be nice if a HUMMER Group was some were around Saint Pete / Tampa Florida area . God Bless Be Health & Safe.
Just bought 2008 last month.noticed same issues. Plus note! (Recall) burnt blower motor harness plug right behind glove box. Replaced ,now #4 fan speed work's . Stead the word!
@@jarocla665 yes their is a recall on all h3 Hummers. Blower motor harness gets hot ,wires to small have,can catch fire,and also the female plug that harness plugs into will melt. Would be great if you did a vision on that , pretty simple and could keep someone's Hummer from burning up
I’m 5’10” and I feel comfortable. The only thing I feel weird about, is the steering wheel doesn’t telescope out towards you. It’s a single up and down movement. So if you have short arms, it may feel weird. But you learn to adapt. I hardly notice anymore.
Good point. I had that issue for a long while. I found it to be the gear selector cable was out of whack. I'm assuming its stretched but I don't know. Needless to say, I had to purchase a brand new cable set from GM about a month ago to try to fix it.
@@CHARacing381 after your video, I went and checked my driver's seat, the seat guard is in place the buttons work, I lifted the seat and found there was a crack in my leather, not visible, but its present, I just laughed
jarocla66 lol I found out, it’s an issue throughout many many different GM models of the same years. My cousins SAAB 9-5 has the same issues. And the replacement OEM covers are NOT cheap by any means.
Many thanks for your review although my guess is that .... being used and purchased, I guess, with so many miles who ever you purchased from did some work after all the damage the hummer got. How many owners your hummer had? Did you do a lot of research and comparison? I am planning to entertain myself visiting and driving and go thru all your comments. I appreciate your video. I wonder about the expenses just by going to the supermarket or to fill up the tank per week? My best to the family and hoping that, at least, you are all very well protected while driving it!
Honestly, the longer I’ve had it, the more I enjoy it. It had 3 owners prior, but the first 2, were a husband and wife, so it was still one family. The 2nd owner is the one who got their use out of it. But then again, I’ve abused it a large amount myself too lol. It’s not cheap to fill up, but then again, it’s to be expected right now. I don’t daily drive it so I don’t fill it up often. Just when I want to have a little fun. It’s been an excellent truck though so far.
Lol it’s part of the ownership 😂 But I don’t drive it daily, I drive my Honda JUST for that gas fill price lol. Other than that, it’s super reliable really. And it makes a great presence on the road. Don’t have to worry about people cutting you off for the most part lol
Let’s not talk about all that lol. It’s not the best by any means. I think it’s around 14ish on highway, but I live in an area that has lots of long hills. Flat land in sure is a bit better. I never really go over 65mph where I drive around. City “stop and go” is what kills it.
I love mine as well. I considered trading it in at one point, and I just can’t do it. I’d rather keep it. Having the Alpha is nice, and they are becoming cheaper. As soon as this used car market settles down, it’s worth looking for another one.
@@CHARacing381 I’ve considered that too. I’d love to actually have some passing power. lol I’m pushing 220,000+ miles right now so I might be forced to get one sooner than I’d. Have you had any mechanical issues with the Alpha?
@@iamjtphoto4851 The only REAL issues I’ve had, was the power steering pump, and it’s not actually a problem, but the temp inside the cluster goes to 3/4 which looks hot, but really after tons and tons of research, it’s normal. So I bought one of those Bluetooth OBD connectors, and found that if it’s at 1/4 the temp was around 195 and at 3/4 it has at 205ish. It was a scare at first but after talking on the forums, 3/4s was really not bad.
Nice! I had to replace my steering pump so I guess that’s just a normal thing. I’ve also replaced the front axel (twice) and the transmission - which I’m told was a weak point in the earlier models (mine is an ‘06). My hope is that they resolved most of those weak points in the Alpha production.
@@iamjtphoto4851 I’ve heard the same about the transmission. I use mine for towing a few hours away here and there for different race events, and that seems to be the only real issue I run into. It’s always hunting for a new gear. Fortunately I haven’t had axle issues yet. I do know another thing that’s common with them, is the suspension bushings. But then again, what larger GM vehicles weren’t having bushing issues around that era lol. Overall, I’m happy with it.
It’s not too bad of a list. I’ve fixed most of the problems and I keep ticking them off. The big one for me will soon be the engine swap since I have the o6 3.5 and it’s at 412,000km. I lived out of mine parked on Wellington st for 22 days in the winter protesting for freedom. Freedom convoy 2022 🇨🇦🫡
Sorry for the late reply. and honestly 412kms out of the 53.5 isn't bad at all! You've got your use out of it. I have since fixed some of my issues as well. The next issue for me, is replacing the windshield...again...for the 2nd time in the last 2 years from a rouge stone on the road.
Great intro, your editing is getting better and better
Desert DIY I wish i could take the credit for it, I actually went with a template, and made it how I wanted.
The h3 was actually a suv meant for a more optimal off-road base to compete with Jeeps. They were too late in the game to fix certain errors yet they had an amazing concept to grow off of but GMs buy out forced it out of line up. If you want an amazing pavement princess you will have to be happy with the cosmetics or alter. The other hand the off road capabilities are endless with a locking front and rear diff, ground clearance along with the hummers low end torque it actually puts jeeps to shame with style. I do every other weekend.
That’s what u pay for to have a fun and handsome Hummer. Live with it and fix it. The fun starts all over again. Trust me
Yes Sir. I agree. It’s been a fun ride so far.
THE BEST COMMENT OF ALL YOU ARE RIGHT WE DO NOT NEED TO LOOK FOR PROBLEMS JUST FIX IT AND ENJOY THIST BEAUTIFUL CAR EVER
I HATE how the back seats fold down and the irresponsible use of space in this rig. all in all, I absolutely adore my H3. Also, the visibility out the back. All not deal breakers.
Thomas Cruz Agreed! Like I’ve tried putting boxes in the back, they fit great until they get to that lifted part on the back of the seat, and they no longer fit! Drives me nuts. I am used to the visibility now.
@@CHARacing381 OH MAN! The box thing gets me every time! The Visibility is okay. I got a backup cam and that really helps a lot. Other than that, it's the perfect rig.
Yes I noticed that too. Couldn't really lay back there unless you liked being propped up like a recliner.
A few years later… How are you feeling about your H3 now? Do you still have it?
@@michaelbjorkgren6959 sorry for the late response, life has kept me busy. I actually ended up trading it in and I should’ve just bought my truck, and kept the Hummer as a 2nd vehicle. I looked all over the place for it once it was gone. The transmission started slipping after towing my race car from Las Vegas back to Florida. I just didn’t have the time to deal with it, but it was noble until the day I sold it.
I'm actually shopping for an Alpha now. Waiting on replies from 2 people... might settle for the non-Alpha if the price is good. Thanks for the video. Been watching a bunch of H3 videos for a few days now. Peace.
Thanks for the video! I just looked at a 2011 with 95K.......a little clunky into reverse and I couldn't get the 4Lo to engage.......and water stains on the ceiling from a leaking sunroof! I was rather impressed, but the previous owner seemed to have had dogs (smelly and fur EVERYWHERE).........Thanks again!
Correction.....2006...not 2011
Sorry for the later response bud, but yeah mine was also a pet owners lol. I pulled the seats out of it 2 weeks ago to clean it, and it STILL had dog hair all over the place!
Do you know how much the Hummer H3 Alpha 2010 weighs? Thank you.
I have an H3 Alpha, RHD, assembled in Port Elizabeth, South Africa, for local and RHD export markets like the UK and Australia. Our arent badged as Alphas and there are a number of differences. My handbrake is a twist mechanism under the dash and my rear view mirror has a screen which appears in the mirror itself when reverse is engaged. I have to agree with the chrome, its cheap and too much. I have seat covers but my seats are still in very good condition and nothing has broken. I do have the sunroof drain issue which is annoying. The trunk space is small compared to past vehicles but I overcame this by building an aluminium drawer system which ''doubles'' the floor area but yes, that step in the floor when dropping the rear seats doesnt make sense. The nets at the back of the front seats I ditched as the seat covers have built in pockets and nets anyway. All in all, a brilliant vehicle and I cant see myself driving anything else.
Sean Towlson Yours does seem really similar. It would be kind of cool to get some of those overseas options on mine. Just to have something different. What engine options did yours come with?
@@CHARacing381 I have the 5.3, assembled in 2010, the last year. Prior to that were the 3.7 5 cylinder units. There were 2 spec levels which you guys had, the Luxury and Adventure packs. Lux = no Locker, Adv = RDL. The V8 has FDL and RDL, same as yours with the 4:1 transfer case. We have quite an active club here and we manage to keep them running and doing what they were designed to do.
Very interesting actually, I've not seen those little problem details before so great job. I've been looking at getting a used one and I always see those seat buttons are demolished and now I know why. That rear seat not folding flat with a huge gap is really disappointing too. Great video bro
Erodthebod Other than those small things I think it’s an overall great vehicle. Mechanically it’s well sorted. Those buttons have been an issue since the early 2000’s GM vehicles started. But thank you on the complement my friend. If you have any other questions that I didn’t cover, feel free to ask. Thanks for watching.
Thanks for the video 👍🏽 What did you like better, the Jeep Commander or the H3? I’m considering picking up one of them soon. Love to hear your feedback.
It’s a hard call brother.
The Jeep had WAY more comfortable features and tech. Mine was the limited V8 (not the hemi though). It had tons of power when towing, it was nicer driving on the road, much more useable interior space, tons of opened compartments to store things, etc. The bad was, building it for off road proved expensive, and ground clearance stock wasn’t much. The 4WD system is better in the Jeep in my opinion. But man it ALWAYS had some type of electrical issue going on. It wasn’t too reliable, or at least mine wasn’t, and it wasn’t cheap to fix either.
The Hummer, is an easy to work on vehicle, with a lot of its parts not being too pricy for the common DIYer. Thankfully I can still get anything I need online, or at the dealership. Comfort is not the worst, but not nearly as good as the Jeep. The Hummer pretty well, but it would be nice to have an extra gear besides the 4 speed. It has pretty good ground clearance compared to the Jeep off road. However, It has the common GM bugs here and there but aren’t too bad or hard to fix. It’s much more reliable than the Jeep. The hummer is also pricy to do any type of off road mods due to its production being stopped. So if you want aftermarket lift kits, they are pretty expensive.
Honestly it’s hard to pick between the two. It would be the Jeep for sure if I didn’t run into reliability issues though. I’d say drive them both for sure and you’ll find out which one you prefer.
@@CHARacing381 I really appreciate you taking the time to send me your detailed feedback. It absolutely helps. I’ll take your advice and find a way to test them both first. Lots of points to consider. Stay blessed brother👍🏽
@@thefierybutmostlypeacefulp7752 No problem brother. Same to you. If you have any other questions let me know bud.
What is the gas mileage you get?
Towing on the highway going between 65-70, it’s like 12-13. Without a trailer usually around 14-14.5.
CHA Racing Thank you!
Wow were you folks at. 1st time here . Just bought 2003 H2. A few little problems .water peck for now. Poured a lot. Alcohol peroxide, mix. Used it for years. Peroxide dissolves organics. Yes can be corrosive the alcohol dries up the water fast and cuts through grime also kills mold, so I poured that down the drains of the sunroof good news it all drained out found out where my drain tubes was and that’s all looking really good and clean up there do that once in a while and to keep them tubes cleaned out I’m still having a little water leak side of front door over unto carpets. Next redoing running lights. H2 was keep in good condition got a lot of paper work. But the gentleman just got older. H2 only has 127.000 mile. 2 owners. Paint Great 2 little dings new Goodyear Big freaking tires. I use gas from Costco. AAA is going to do strengthening the steering wheel. Why they think thy have to put it up in the air. Not. Sure about that .Ok going to watch all videos. Hope to find out were you folks are at. Maybe when it warms up would like to go to the city were these were made . See you in the next video. It’s be nice if a HUMMER Group was some were around Saint Pete / Tampa Florida area . God Bless Be Health & Safe.
Just bought 2008 last month.noticed same issues. Plus note! (Recall) burnt blower motor harness plug right behind glove box. Replaced ,now #4 fan speed work's . Stead the word!
billie I didn’t even know about that recall! That could’ve been a dangerous one if it was not repaired.
i hv the 2008, love yhat year
Typo (spread the word)
@@jarocla665 yes their is a recall on all h3 Hummers. Blower motor harness gets hot ,wires to small have,can catch fire,and also the female plug that harness plugs into will melt. Would be great if you did a vision on that , pretty simple and could keep someone's Hummer from burning up
@@jarocla665 like my 2008 but like you have some dislikes too , mostly back door swing instead of a lift up and tail gate
How do you rate the leg room? Im tall but looking at the h3 it seems it may not have enough leg room.
I’m 5’10” and I feel comfortable. The only thing I feel weird about, is the steering wheel doesn’t telescope out towards you. It’s a single up and down movement. So if you have short arms, it may feel weird. But you learn to adapt. I hardly notice anymore.
Where are your front mud flaps?
Mine didn’t come with any. Was that an option? It sounds like a good option though
CHA Racing I don’t know. I bought a used 2008 and it cane with them.
Does GM care about their customers 2006 Hummer H3 ignition problems key gets stuck in ignition when turned off why is there a recall
Good point. I had that issue for a long while. I found it to be the gear selector cable was out of whack. I'm assuming its stretched but I don't know. Needless to say, I had to purchase a brand new cable set from GM about a month ago to try to fix it.
Mud flaps, dude. They're pretty cheap too.
My dad’s h3 has mudflaps and the fenders are still pretty eaten up by chips
You didn't mention the issue with the sunroof leaking, and the clogging of the drain valves , so you must have been lucky so far
jarocla66 I stay in Arizona, so not too much rain. I was fortunate enough to not run into that issue. But I was expecting it to happen eventually lol
@@CHARacing381 after your video, I went and checked my driver's seat, the seat guard is in place the buttons work, I lifted the seat and found there was a crack in my leather, not visible, but its present, I just laughed
jarocla66 lol I found out, it’s an issue throughout many many different GM models of the same years. My cousins SAAB 9-5 has the same issues. And the replacement OEM covers are NOT cheap by any means.
Many thanks for your review although my guess is that .... being used and purchased, I guess, with so many miles who ever you purchased from did some work after all the damage the hummer got. How many owners your hummer had? Did you do a lot of research and comparison? I am planning to entertain myself visiting and driving and go thru all your comments. I appreciate your video. I wonder about the expenses just by going to the supermarket or to fill up the tank per week? My best to the family and hoping that, at least, you are all very well protected while driving it!
Honestly, the longer I’ve had it, the more I enjoy it. It had 3 owners prior, but the first 2, were a husband and wife, so it was still one family. The 2nd owner is the one who got their use out of it. But then again, I’ve abused it a large amount myself too lol. It’s not cheap to fill up, but then again, it’s to be expected right now. I don’t daily drive it so I don’t fill it up often. Just when I want to have a little fun. It’s been an excellent truck though so far.
WOW nit-pickin. It's a bummer not a Lexus
And do the cargo net upgrade it works I did mine on first drop
Bernard Po That’s great to hear! Where did you end up ordering your net kit from?
Ebay
Do you hate spending 80.00 to fill your gas tank? 😆 I'm going to look at a couple this weekend
Lol it’s part of the ownership 😂 But I don’t drive it daily, I drive my Honda JUST for that gas fill price lol. Other than that, it’s super reliable really. And it makes a great presence on the road. Don’t have to worry about people cutting you off for the most part lol
Gas mileage… Is it worth it?
Let’s not talk about all that lol. It’s not the best by any means. I think it’s around 14ish on highway, but I live in an area that has lots of long hills. Flat land in sure is a bit better. I never really go over 65mph where I drive around. City “stop and go” is what kills it.
With the larger tires on it, you are probably getting better MPG than the dash tells you.
I love my H3 and all its shortcomings.. I just wish I'd bought an Alpha.
I love mine as well. I considered trading it in at one point, and I just can’t do it. I’d rather keep it. Having the Alpha is nice, and they are becoming cheaper. As soon as this used car market settles down, it’s worth looking for another one.
@@CHARacing381 I’ve considered that too. I’d love to actually have some passing power. lol I’m pushing 220,000+ miles right now so I might be forced to get one sooner than I’d. Have you had any mechanical issues with the Alpha?
@@iamjtphoto4851 The only REAL issues I’ve had, was the power steering pump, and it’s not actually a problem, but the temp inside the cluster goes to 3/4 which looks hot, but really after tons and tons of research, it’s normal. So I bought one of those Bluetooth OBD connectors, and found that if it’s at 1/4 the temp was around 195 and at 3/4 it has at 205ish. It was a scare at first but after talking on the forums, 3/4s was really not bad.
Nice! I had to replace my steering pump so I guess that’s just a normal thing. I’ve also replaced the front axel (twice) and the transmission - which I’m told was a weak point in the earlier models (mine is an ‘06). My hope is that they resolved most of those weak points in the Alpha production.
@@iamjtphoto4851 I’ve heard the same about the transmission. I use mine for towing a few hours away here and there for different race events, and that seems to be the only real issue I run into. It’s always hunting for a new gear. Fortunately I haven’t had axle issues yet. I do know another thing that’s common with them, is the suspension bushings. But then again, what larger GM vehicles weren’t having bushing issues around that era lol. Overall, I’m happy with it.
Most of the things you don’t like is that it’s an older vehicle with ware and tear
That's why I wrap my finders in a clear bra that saved them
V８は珍しい貴重ですね🎉
I mean its looks cool
It’s not terrible. I enjoy it. Has its small things here and there but it still does what I ask of it.
@@CHARacing381 yea with black rims it looks more cool and how much does it cost
@@mikey_6785 Agreed. I’m not a fan of chrome by any means, so the black out look is better looking in my opinion.
@@CHARacing381 im about to go to sleep when its 9:20Pm and the thing i hate about it is the speed
Get rid of it if it's so bad not a big problem lol
👍👍👍
I don’t get it ..... 😎🇺🇸
Geez. You saved me some money!
It’s not a bad vehicle overall. It’s just like every other vehicle out there. It’s got it’s own things here and there. lol
@@CHARacing381 TY.
It’s not too bad of a list. I’ve fixed most of the problems and I keep ticking them off. The big one for me will soon be the engine swap since I have the o6 3.5 and it’s at 412,000km. I lived out of mine parked on Wellington st for 22 days in the winter protesting for freedom. Freedom convoy 2022 🇨🇦🫡
Sorry for the late reply. and honestly 412kms out of the 53.5 isn't bad at all! You've got your use out of it. I have since fixed some of my issues as well. The next issue for me, is replacing the windshield...again...for the 2nd time in the last 2 years from a rouge stone on the road.
@@CHARacing381 yeh I got one a few weeks ago. It’s just how it goes sometimes. I’ll replace it next season
@@TinyGoHomes I might do the same. Its not directly in my line of sight, but every 2 days, it grows another half inch or so.