The Magic of [Problematic Fave]
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- Опубліковано 9 кві 2024
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#davidcopperfield #guiltypleasures #problematic #magic #videoessay - Розваги
trans kids who still like harry potter absolutely understand the concept of problematic faves :/
It’s absolutely tough dealing with a situation like that. I was in my late 20s when JKR started on her nonsense and my already waning interest in Harry Potter was accelerated by her views. I can’t imagine finding this world that feels like a parallel for your own life in a time where existing is already pretty awkward as it is, only to have the author go off the deep end towards people like you.
@@Shananigainz Same, only I was in my 30's. I started noticing all the flaws in the books when JK Rowling started to tell the world that people like me shouldn't be allowed to exist. When I reorganised my apartment and did a book cull, those books went to Goodwill, where I hope some cis kid will find and love them.
Like homosexuals that still eat at Chick-fil-A nope you have to vote with your money. It is the only thing you have that matters. They do not care about your opinion they only care about your dollars.
What adds salt to the wounds of this one is that I can imagine Harry potter's story would be inspirational to a trans person.
Or gay people who still eat at Chick-fil-A vote with your money it is the only thing you have. They do not care about your opinion. They only care about your dollars. Do not support people who do not support you.
Am I the only one who was worried when I saw Mr Rogers in the thumbnail alongside the title of this video and then breathed a sigh of relief at the context? Nice job, Steve.
Absolutely!
Yeah.
Was ready to punch Steve through the screen.
You are not the only one.
YESSS!!! I was so worried I missed something terrible
God-level click-bait. I damn near worship Mr. Rogers to the point of I want to go to The Neighborhood of Make-Believe when I die; and I don't know how I'd react if I found out Mr. Rogers had a skeleton in the closet behind all those sweaters. Denial, almost certainly. I refuse to believe anything bad about him. The man was a saint in a world where most of the saints are actually pretty evil. We are lucky to have had him here.
Isaac Asimov. Wrote brilliantly on many topics, you basically can't discuss Golden Age science fiction without mentioning him... but his behavior toward women was bad enough that he managed to get blacklisted from conventions *as a famous man in the 70s.*
Howard Lovecraft. Invented an entire subgenre of horror fiction, amazingly influential even today... but even in his own time he was considered astoundingly racist.
Why do nerds and creative types end up being so bad with women??
Sometimes it also depends on the nature of the work. Asimov's nasty sexual attitude isn't very apparent in most of his work, even in retrospect. However, knowing Lovecraft's racism makes it much harder to read stories about people with strange features and uncertain parentage.
Dang. I had never heard that about Asimov. That hurts
Dang. I had never heard that about Asimov. That hurts
Orson Scott Card is on that list.
First name that popped in to me head: Joss Whedon. Absolutely love all his TV and Film work, but it does feel a bit awkward in recent years.
This one. I loved Buffy and Firefly for many years, me and my friends were lowkey obsessed with Firefly in high school for a while. I even for a time had a username on some sites that was a reference to Firefly. But now after everything that came out about him, yeah... feels, awkward at best. And that's why I don't use that username anymore.
I'll admit that I even watched that HBO show that came out around the time all the stories flooded out...and I actually liked The Nevers. Whedon was never perfect creatively, but he was able to hit a certain niche that worked for me. Horrible that he treated so many people so horribly, though.
2020 was a rough year for me. Found out a favorite online content creator, a comicbook writer, and an actor on one of my favorite sci-fi shows were all creeps to various extents. I will never consume any new material they create but have less of a problem going back to their old work. Stand up comedians, however. I find out you cross the line, and I'd rather burn my eyes and ears out with a hit iron rod than go back to their old stuff.
The big problem for me with Whedon is that he sold feminism so he could act in misogyny, and retrospectively his feminism in his works was still pretty flimsy (and not even in a "it aged poorly but it was forward-thinking for the time" sort of way)
It's a little different than something like a musician that fucks around on their spouse, right - their infidelity doesn't necessarily undermine their music (unless their primary theme in their art is extolling the virtue of monogamy).
I love Buffy. It's still an enduring classic in my eyes. But once you learn about Joss Whedon's "issues", there is so much about the series you can't help but see through a critical lens.
First time I felt this was with Orson Scott Card and I heard about his rampant homophobia. I've tried to read his books and "separating the artist from the art"... but when you realize the lens from which he is writing, it all just feels like when you touch a tacky surface and you need to wash your hands.
Same. Followed by Cosby.
Card came to mind for me as well. I loved his Emder and Bean books prior to his bigotry being widely known.
That prior love of the books allows me to reread them even knowing how much Card sucks. What floors is the cognitive dissonance of an author whose main line of books is literally about learning to accept others that are different than you even if they’re scary (not the Bean books so much but definitely the sender ones).
But I also will never buy anything related to Card again. I’m glad the sender movie apparently sucked because I wasn’t going to watch it anyway.
No no, he hated things that sounded the same!! Like red and read.... He loved the gays!!!
(😶)
@@RealBradMiller Ah yes, homophonophobia.
Nahko Bear was mine. He sang about peace and togetherness, the human spirit. Later, when googling something else about him the search engine suggested "Nahko Bear allegations" and my heart sank. Credible accusations of child grooming. Now, if I really start to get into a new artist I do a cursory search. I hate having to vet musicians, but here we are.
So, I was a James Bond fan since early childhood. The interest became something of an obsession, although I never felt obsessive about it - I just felt like I was accumulating knowledge.
Anyway, I eventually ended up being something of an expert, writing articles, being invited to the premieres, interviewed etc.
I even ended up on a successful James Bond podcast, which kinda got me through COVID.
However, my love of Bond had become quite tarnished. I was seeing that my hero engaged in sexual violence, something I had experienced and could not fathom a “good guy” doing. As time went by, I became increasingly critical. My politics became more and more Left Wing, to the point where I could only utilise my knowledge of the franchise to critique.
Now, with a greater understanding of geopolitics and history, I cannot in good conscience support an agent of all the things that I find both objectively morally wrong and personally distasteful.
To find yourself an expert in a dying field, and one that you now find virtually unwatchable, is definitely a strange place to find oneself.
All that said, that doesn’t take away from the artistic achievements of these films and those that contributed to it; I will always be drawn to Ken Adam’s incredible production design, the costuming, Barry’s score, and the snappy direction of those early films. But, for a time at least, they were my guilty pleasure.
Allegedly the first two people they approached to be Bond (Cary Grant and Patrick MacGoohan) had the same reaction: “He’s a very bad man.” Cary never played bad men and while MacGoohan did, he refused to play a part that glorified bad people.
So, yeah, you’re right on both levels: both about the movies being kind of marvels of production, direction, and design, and also Bond himself being awful
@@mahatmarandy5977 There are so many apocryphal stories about Bond, half-remembered subjective anecdotes, but I would like to believe that yours is the real reason that these two men turned the role down.
Although he looked the part and had the necessary charm, I can’t imagine seeing Grant casually murder Professor Dent, for example. I *can* see MacGoohan doing it, but I’d bet his performance would have had a subtle vein of irony and criticism that ran beneath the surface delivery - which is often the case with him. But I can’t imagine a man of MacGoohan’s personality ever bending his will to the Broccoli’s; I imagine he’d have rather quit than to compromise.
One word: Kanye
Try watching a person you once respected and went to bat for slowly turning like he was bit by werewolf for YEARS.
R. Kelly too.
Oh thank God this wasn't about Mister Rogers, I about had a heart attack.
Oh, so that's why despite really liking magic, I haven't heard anything about Copperfield for like twenty years?
He stopped doing TV specials before the allegations against him were widely known, so I'm not sure if that had anything to do with it. He still performs regularly in Las Vegas and tours occasionally. The allegations don't seem to have harmed his career all that much.
His long relationship with Claudia Shifter is a hard fact for fans to look past. Some never will believe he might be a scumbag. Also, how old was Claudia when they were together??
He mostly does stage shows at his theater in Vegas these days. I caught one of his shows last minute a couple years ago and it's worth the money. He's a legend for a reason, but he's worth over a billion at this point, so the shows he does are more about his enjoying putting on shows than on money.
@@SteveShives Yeah, for all that dudes like to complain that allegations ruin a man's life, I've personally only ever seen them ruin the victim's.
@@StaceyEmthe relationship was very public. I don't know the difference of age, but she was an adult
I'm a fan of classic rock and heavy metal music, so I have quite a few problematic faves. A good number of my favorite musicians are people I'd never want to meet, talk to or hang out with in real life.
Part of me is kind of glad that the musicians I love the most have died. Although I'll never get to see them in person, I didn't have to find out that they're transphobic or an anti-vaxxer or some other shit that makes me enjoy their music less.
Except Tom Petty who seemed like an amazing person who admitted when he was wrong and grew as a human being. That one hurts.
Yeah, I almost hate to admit that I still absolutely love a lot of Guns N' Roses. Awful people, mostly. Awful lyrics, in a lot of cases. But such a great band! And Slash's solos!
@@terryhinch Yeah, Petty seemed like a solid dude. Lemmy from Motorhead was also a grade-A human being (even if a couple of his songs were.. "questionable"). On the other hand, Dave Mustaine and Eric Clapton will always be dickheads, even if their music was awesome (which it is).
Some of my favourite bands (ELO, Rush etc) were too nerdy to be problematic. I'm not sure how many wives Jeff Lynne is up to, but they were all adults.
Pretty much every hard rock band in the 70's
Mine was Bill Cosby. 50 years his comedy was the light that kept me from the darkness. His stand on education was a cornerstone of my ideology. 😢 😢
That's the worst part about Cosby, is that he wasn't an unapproachable recluse. Dude was a leader in the community and was a role model. This doesn't erase all the positive things he did over his decades of influence but it colors everything he accomplished.
The irony there is that he probably would have gotten away with it if he hadn't started making judgmental comments about the Black community.
I went to one of his last comedy performances before all the news broke. I felt guilty as soon as the world knew what he was like that my money went to him, and for laughing there.
I find it's much easier to enjoy problematic faves when they're dead. Doubly so if they were dead before you (the royal you, not meaning Steve, though it could apply to Steve) were even born.
for me that would be Frank Sinatra. dude was a violent lunatic wife beater. he also regularly used his connections with organized crime to get concert venues and the like at the threat of violent acts. he is however a damn good singer always with a damn good band behind him. also used to quite like Elvis until i found out that nearly all his songs were stolen from smaller struggling musicians most of which were African American and performed the song better with much more feeling. let's also not forget when he married a 15 year old. now when i hear elvis i just hear a soulless knockoff creep.
Pretty much this. "Death of the Author" requires the author to be dead. You can enjoy something you loved, but the moment you advertise it or spend money on it while the creator still benefits from it, the whole concept dies.
Steve watching old Bootlegs doesn't give David Copperfield any money at all. It won't support him in any way.
Buying a CD of or Requesting "I Believe i can fly" on the radio will directly benefit R. Kelly.
Spending money on ANYTHING that is licensed Harry Potter material will keep supporting Rowlings shitty behaviour.
So i'm all. "You can have your problematic faves. But if you celebrate it openly or even tell me you spent money on them lately, don't expect us to stay friends"
@@ShinjiSingsMaybe you were making a joke or something. But "Death of the author" has nothing to do with actual death. It also has nothing to do with separating problematic creators from their works. It's an artistic theory (originally cinematic) in direct opposition to auteur theory and is about how much relevance the inciting creator, as a human being, has on their work. Whether or not it's worthwhile to understand the director or author as a person in order to understand their work.
I know it's pedantic but these are valuable methods of artistic analysis and how it's used in regard to problematic creators makes understanding these idea a lot harder. It grinds my gears that every time Rowling or Card comes up someone starts saying "Death of the Author!"
And yes, it's a whole lot easier to enjoy works of creators with issues once they are dead. First, you know they aren't benefiting financially or otherwise. Also, it means they are at least a bit historical. It's easier to forgive bigotry when the perpetrator has been in the grave a century or two.
@@CorwinFound unfortunately "death of the author" is LITERALLY an excuse people use to still consume Harry Potter stuff. Even though it means something completely different.
Lindsey Ellis made a great video about the whole thing.
@@ShinjiSings It's an excuse, but the _real_ concept of "Death of the Author" is worth preserving the original meaning of, because it's a useful idea in media criticism. Essentially, it's the idea that you are not "wrong" for reading things into a text that the original writer never intended. Without Death of the Author, Jadzia and Ezri Dax aren't allegories for being transgender because that's not how the original writers intended the work to be read - without it, there is a single, objectively correct way to interpret a piece of media and anything else is just wrong.
"an endless variety of gross impropriety". Steve says he hates musicals, yet he writes such catchy lines.
Yeah, I kinda want to write SHIVES! the musical now. I can do the music; anyone want to write the book?
That sounds like something out of a Tom Lehrer song.
@@podemosurss8316 It's nearly a line out of Poisoning Pigeons in The Park!
@@spikeoramathondon't threaten me with a good time!
From "No good comes from an island", the big number of Act 2 of the D'Oyly Carte's "The Copper-Field"
HP Lovecraft has to be at the top of my list. His writing is some of my favourite horror, and he created a rich mythology, which he left without copyright specifically so other writers and artists could play with it in the future. He was also notoriously bigoted even for his time, to the point that some of his descriptions and phrasings become unintentionally almost funny when read in a modern context. Among Lovecraft fans who I know personally, his disdain for *everyone* (apart from well educated straight, white, Anglo, men) has become a running joke, to the point that while we love the stories, we can't take the man the least bit seriously anymore, and often just refer to him as "The Old Racist".
The fact that a black woman like NK Jemisin was able to write a pair of wonderful books (The City We Became and The World We Make), using the Lovecraft Mythos to condemn everything he believed shows that when used well, the works of problematic faves can be turned around to make works about a better way to be people.
Lovecraft was considered extremely racist by people who we now consider extremely racist ... But I can still enjoy his work despite this
The TV show Lovecraft Country was, among other things, about how PoC could enjoy fantasy by racist writers.
A good show but I'm not too sorry it didn't get a second season.
Have you read The Ballad of Black Tom by Victor LaVelle? It seems like something you’d enjoy.
On that part about "guilty pleasure", being someone who enjoys Rurouni Kenshin, that's definitely nº1 on the list: that show is a piece of art about a Japanese former samurai in the Meiji era trying to cope with PTSD (amongst other things), but the author was literally sentenced for owning child p0rn.
Penn&Teller we're my faves growing up, so glad Penn renounced his Libertarianism.
Their movie, Penn and Teller get Killed, hit me perfectly, using narrative to get you to believe anything
....that's it, being a hardcore libertarian? Or did either of them do anything truly vile like the others discussed here?
@@KeithustusI don’t know about Penn and Teller, but being a hardcore libertarian almost always involves saying completely terrible things on a regular basis.
Owning an island is definitely a Bond villain move. Of course, I'd like my own...
I'd like a private island. Just a small one, with a pretty little one bedroom cottage on it where I can just go by myself for a week or two and not see a single other human being.
Just think of all the sick nasty kung fu tournaments you could have on them!
@@wendyheatherwood that’s how I feel. Like a house on an island on a lake somewhere, ya know?
My favorite comic is Bill Hicks. Some of his comedy hasn’t aged well (elements of misogyny).
But he also died when he was 32. When I was a kid that felt pretty old. Now I’m 43 and think back to how much I still had to learn at 32.
While I don’t think he truly fits the “problematic fave” category, I often wonder what route Hicks would have gone if he was still alive: continue to attack the elites like Carlin, or would he complain about how “you can’t tell jokes anymore” like so many other comics from the 80’s and 90’s.
I'm guessing he would've gone more the Carlin route. Hicks seemed too smart to do otherwise,
@@TrumbullComicThat’s what I like to believe since his own “punching up” stance was pretty well demonstrated for many years.
Either way I think his head would have outright exploded (like Scanners) if he’d been around for Trump getting elected.
To be honest it was pretty hard for any comedian to be *that* successful before 1990 or 2000 and NOT include misogyny at least at some level.
Wow. David Copperfield once asked me out after a show. I didn’t go. Looks like I may have dodged a bullet.
Or did you? Look in your hand!
*Palm opens to expose a bullet casing*
My line is 'are they living.' I think it is very uncool to provide known monsters with money and power.
"Get them while they're young, and you have them for life" .... the story of my adulthood has been freeing myself of all the things I was suckered into as a kid. All sorts of habits and addictions and misconceptions. From parents, from society, from advertisers.
Seeing the picture of Mr. Rogers makes me realize that he's nobody's problematic, and that gives me hope about people. That there's good out there even though there's so much bad.
What was his relationship with his young super-pretty costar though? Everything passes the sniff test?
"An endless variety of gross impropriety."
That's... That's just beautiful, man.
It sounds like something Dr. Seuss might bellow
But alas he is also a problematic fellow
That's the precise exact phrase I'm in the comments to praise!
“An endless variety of gross impropriety “
Man what a good line.
I thought you were going to talk about Mr Rogers. He's been my fave for almost six decades.
Mr. Rogers is probably the only christian minister on TV that was a good person. All the rest seem to be complete scumbags.
The only dirt on Fred Rogers is manufactured...
Im always petrified that we will find secret cannibal sex dungeons of all my favorite people, Rogers or whomever. You don't dare to enjoy anything fully anymore since its just a matter of time.
I continue to be amazed that Mr. Rogers actually seems to have walked his own talk and didn't have a bunch of ugly skeletons in the closet.
I continue to hope that Weird Al truly is the wholesome person he appears to be, too, because he's one of my faves.
a note on the celebrating bad art, one often has to make lots of bad art in order to be able to make good art, so thats another reason to celebrate art in spite of its quality
Steve, I'm in the same boat with you. One of my favorite shows growing up (other than TNG) was Hercules The Legendary Journeys. The star of one of my favorite shows from my childhood was potentially an active participant in trying to overthrow the country. Haven't been able to bring myself to watch it since he started showing how crazy he is.
The Hercules in that show was amazing, the real life actor is merely his evil twin. This is not his world... Disappointed!
There's an upside to this one, though. I regularly keep up with Willie Muse's videos and he covers a lot of awful cringey christian movies, a frankly shocking number of which have ol' Herc in them. He may have lost all respect and dignity as a legitimate actor and person, but to me he's found a new life as that dumb asshole that keeps popping up in those hilariously god awful horseshit pureflix trash. I was never super into his Hercules as a kid, but I've definitely been enjoying his turn from once headliner of something I thought was cool to being a walking joke of a human being. Easier to deal with a fall from grace when you can point and laugh.
I would still watch it for the talents of the New Zealand cast and crew and the opportunities it brought to them.
Just watch Xena instead.
Not a problematic fave, but more of a guilty pleasure. Throughout the nineties I had a radio show. One night I was browsing through the station's music catalogue and ran across a CD by Charles Manson. Yes, that Charles Manson. I found one song worth playing called Garbage Dump. It became a guilty pleasure of mine to play that song on the air just to see how many people would freak out over it.
😂😂😂😂 love this story!!!
In some timeline, theres platinum Charles Manson albums and Hitler art galleries and people who have no idea what these guys were capable of. Makes you wonder.
Back in college, I think I heard "Look At Your Game, Girl" in a coffee shop, and thought "That isn't too bad, I wonder who this is?" One of my friends told me "That's Charles Manson."
separating art from the artist only works when the artist is no longer able to cause harm. continually supporting someone who will use that support for further harm is bad. you can still use the stuff you already own, maybe.
Are you referring to financially supporting or artistically supporting? Because IMO the two are not the same.
There are a few bands and artists that I really like, but I wouldn't give them any money becasue they are awful people.
Some people may be put off by the personality being bad, and that's perfectly fine. However, I don't think that anyone should feel guilty about enjoying work purely on its own merits as a product. As long as they acknowledge where it came from that is.
A bigger issue is defending a bad person becasue you happen to like their art.
Especially if they’re bootleg versions! That’s probably the most ethical consumption of art from a problematic artist.
Bill Cosby. That's the most extreme example I can think of. But he's no longer a fave. He creeps me out now.
I thought he was funny, but I also got a weird vibe. Now I know why.
Yup, I grew up on Cosby comedy records and then later the Cosby Show when it aired.
I'm old enough to have listened to comedy records. Huh.
Totally get it. Between Fat Albert and the Cosby show, I was a huge fan once.
Yeah. I can understand this one, because I still can't help but think of Chocolate Cake for breakfast or driving a stick-shift on Lombar Street. They're both great comedy moments, but damn did Cosby get unmasked as an absolute sexual menace that should be shunned hard. But in my head, I can still hear "EGGS! Eggs are in chocolate cake! And MILK! And WHEAT!"
My father had his comedy records and 8tracks as well (God we are just all dating ourselves today). I grew up listening to them and they kind of defined what was “funny” to me. I had them on a comedy playlist for years, but when I found out who he was really was though, I just had to delete them.
Chris Benoit. Amazing pro wrestler, possibly one of the best, but yeah, saying you were a fan of an outright murderer isn't the most breezy conversation.
Yeah he didn't need to bring that back up. I was literally on the independent circuit using a very similar style to his when that happened did not survive my efforts to rebrand and retool my style and was quite ok walking away after being a fan of someone capable of that.
Marilyn Manson for me. Woke freaky self up,I was like 12/13 when Antichrist Superstar came out.
After some of whats been said in this video, I'm starting to think Steve Shives might be my problematic fave 🤪
When I saw the thumbnail I didn’t really think about it & for a second worried Mr. Rogers had some dark skeleton in his closet I didn’t know about
John Lasseter's fall from grace was like a knife to my heart. I practically worshipped that man from the age of eight all the way to the age of thirty, when the scandal and subsequent ousting happened. My childhood dream was to work with him at Pixar. One could be a cynical smartass and say I dodged a bullet, but it still hurts.
Orson Scott Card. I had the fun English teacher in Grade 10, this would of been 2002 I think, and we were the only class to read Ender's Game. That was my intro to sci Fi and changed what Media I consume for the rest of my life. When I found out about his anti gay stance at the time it was also my first experience of having to separate the art from the artist.
I've read most of his books and this is the first I've heard about it.
What could you have against gay people? How does it affect your life?
@@jaugustussmith5816Apparently the pillars of finding something evil involve
1. I dont understand it
2. I dont identify with it
3. I think its gross.
And somehow thats enough to justify moral hatred.
@@jaugustussmith5816 I think it came from religion for Card. He's in the LDS church.
I used to love Rurouni Kenshin, ever since I was 12 it was one of my absolute favorites. Several years ago the author got busted for cp and he didn't feel an ounce of guilt. When they revealed that 12 was his favorite age it made me so sick. I haven't been able to look at the series since. Sometimes being a kid when you found that media makes you feel worse and less able to separate the art from the crime.
I remember growing up watching it on tv finding out about the cp was a shock
Welp... the show is now ruined for me too haha
Damnit. That was such an essential series for me. Still kinda is?
… what a way to find out about that- from a UA-cam comment 😂😩
omg...."cp" is child porn. Thanks google. Yikes! /out
I feel this so much. One of my favorite film is Usual Suspect and I love Kevin Spacey's acting.
To be totally honest, The Usual Suspects is an amazing movie, and Kevin Spacey *was* really great in it. It's just too bad that he's a sh1t human being, and we all found out after the fact. He was great in LA Confidential, too.
This and Se7en too. Se7en in my personal top 10. Spacey was great in these and i think with these i can separate art and artist, especially since he plays the bad guy.
American Beauty... not so much. Can't see that the same
"Goes tits up" should be used as a phrase more often.
It's fantastic that it's a military backronym:
Total
Inability
To
Support
Usual
Performance
@@GSBarlev huh, you learn something new. I woulda sworn it had to be sourced from mysogyny somehow.
It's British for going belly up.
It's used regularly here in the UK, come on over if you wanna hear it more often! ...actually, don't bother, JK Rowling has far too much influence here :/
Not mine, but I always felt bad for women who loved Mists of Avalon. They rightfully took it hard when Marion Zimmer Bradley's daughter exposed her post-mortem.
She came to mind for me - Bradley and David (and Leigh) Eddings. Separating these artists from their art is less possible than other media, but they were profoundly influential for fantasy books as a genre (and me) so they still get mentioned/ referenced.
*This* one emotionally destroyed me.
Generally I’m fine with revisiting problematic faves after their death, but her abuse of her children was so linked to what she wrote that I will never read her again.
I feel like this about Kayne, Kubrick and FDR (after watching the Ken Burns doc)😔.
On the issue of the private island…. I have a fantasy that I revisit quite often where I win the lottery, buy a private island to make a homestead on and leave society never to return…. No nefarious intent. I want the private island to escape people, not to escape justice🤣
I think the biggest conundrum is that in order to be able to afford a private island one has to be a sociopath, psychopath, or otherwise ok with hurting other people to get to the top, which is when they finally have enough money to buy such luxuries.
I still love Buffy TVS and (to a lesser extent) Firefly. I hate that Joss Whedon created both, but I can’t entirely quit them.
Liked them, but can now never contemplate watching Dollhouse. Too creepy.
I think for me, as a comicbook fan, it has to be Steve Ditko. I love the Marvel characters he had his hand in co-creating. I love how expertly he threaded the needle between realism and fantasticism. His work was incredibly consistent, simultaneously traditional and experimental.
And yet, he was an ardent Ayn Rand adherent, and once he stopped working with Stan Lee, that philosophy and worldview spilled into everything he created.
I know it’s not like he was a rapist or a sexist or anything of that sort, at least that we know, but I find the Rand ideology abhorrent enough that it makes him problematic for me, even though he co-created one of the single greatest fictional characters of all time. Yes, I mean Spider-Man.
Would I still watch the Cosby Show? Yes. As a black kid growing up during that time,, it was one of the few places on TV that had a consistent positive message that represented me. Also, I know for some time, because the show was a collaboration of actors, many of the younger actors were getting residuals for it. Will I watch any of his specials were he gets nearly all of the residuals? No. Just like R.Kelley or Diddy.
Yeah that's what's so tuff with this whole situation fundamentally his content is the biases of a lot of peoples self worth who grew up with it. Getting the image of a doctor and his wife the lawyer when so many aspects of society tried their hardest to convince you that people who look like them don't belong in those roles. It's just so sad that the same man determined to create that image had no self control and was unworthy of portraying it. My parents were even older so I was familiar with his whole library and gave it all up. However I am glad for the clarity of the dangers of seeking heroes or idolizing people in general.
When i was a kid i thought Theo was right. When i got older i thought Cliff was right. Then i grew even older and realized Theo was right all along and Cliff was justly Cosbys preachy boomer mouthpiece that had no business beaing Americas Dad.
The top item on my list if I ever hit a mega jackpot is to buy an island, not to get away with bad things, but to get away from people. No solicitors knocking on my door, no loud music from a car in the street or neighbor, no -anything-, just peace. Just give me solar panels for power, a garden for vegetables, and satellite internet.
Volkswagen's new nostalgia-oriented campaign: "You think Steve Jobs was a jerk, wait 'til you hear about OUR founder."
The U.K.here: Jimmy Savile - Obvious, he always looked creepy. But Rolf Harris, I grew up with that man. His paintings, his Cartoon Club even his Digerredo.... He broke a generations nay the country's Heart, so so devastating.
I love Kate Bush, he appears on a couple of her albums.I still listen to and enjoy those songs, but he's there....digging and doing all over the place but the music means more to me than than his vile crimes, so I enjoy but not forget what he did.
People, huh....
Same never liked Saville I was put off by the bombastic personality alone, but I feel the same about Rolf Harris, who was very much a large part of my child hood & when it all came out it felt like a gut punch
I didn't know that Rolf Harris had played on some Kate Bush albums! Savile was just a creepy tv presenter who didn't really create anything, but Rolf Harris had a genuine talent for popularising art and music.
@@paulhammond6978
I exactly.
I can't say I was ever a great fan but he was a huge part of UK culture in the 70s and 80s.
The Goodies devoted a TV episode to mocking his ubiquity.
Blizzard Entertainment.
I don't think I need to explain why.
Yeah, there are way too many game and animation studios that are tainted nowadays, though I can still enjoy their products (might not buy, but if I already have it...)
My family used to run a mail-order magic and restraints company. In the magic community it was a thing. Copperfield came to our house....in a small Montana town...to meet my parents. He bought a set of lock-picks direct from my dad. He used those in the escape from Alcatraz special.
It was The Chicks for my mom... She flipped her lid when that happened.... I still love them, even moreso that they stand for LGBTQ+ and make it known during their concerts.
i assume everyone is problematic, its great when you find out someone isn't problematic.
The first two names that occur to me for problematic faves are Louis CK and Gene Roddenberry.
CK was one of my inspirations to get into stand-up comedy, but it's been tough revisiting his comedy and his TV since he admitted the allegations against him were true.
Roddenberry created one of my all-time favorite TV shows, and the more I find out about the guy, the more I realize just how far short of he fell of the ideals he constantly espoused. My opinion of him cratered out a number of years ago when I realized it was likely that he was the person who sexually assaulted Grace Lee Whitney back in the 1960s. But I still love TOS and I thank god he never shows up on screen.
Gene Roddenberry is a tough one for me because I see so much about him to look up to, but also so much about him that is not great.
Louis CK isn't really a particular fair name to include in this list. What he did was stupid, but at least he thought he was getting consent. And he stopped doing it well before it became public knowledge. Unlike most of the other folks are talking about.
Personally, I never cared for his stuff, but I do think that he does deserve some credit for how he handled it when he did ultimately realize the error of his ways.
@@SmallSpoonBrigade See also Al Franken
The impact Roman Polansky and Woody Allen have had on my appreciation of cinema, comedy, and drama has been profound and lifelong. Ugh.
When separating the art from artist, I think we have to ask ourselves "does this benefit the problematic artist?"
Does you buying/watching your bootleg copies of David Copperfield's TV specials benefit David Copperfield? No, he's not getting a single cent.
Does going to the latest Harry Potter movie benefit JK Rowling? YES! As the owner of the Harry Potter IP she gets a huge cut of profits on any legit Harry Potter media or merchandise and is able to funnel that money straight into her bigotry.
This distinction is _extremely_ important when trying to separate art from artist.
That's the reason I only read Orson Scott Card's books from the library or bought used. There's no way I'm giving him money to hurt LGBT+ people with. I was really disappointed when he funded the anti-gay-marriage proposition in California. Now that I know about his homophobia, I can see it a little in his work sometimes, but he still has mostly good concepts and values, so I still enjoy his books.
Ender's Game was important book to me as a teen. Not a fan of Orson Scott Card, he's a bigot.
This. Same with Dune. I hate when works are wiser than their creators.
Something that I wish I had better words for is the idea that when I learn about something I adored being made by someone who's done terrible things, I have a hard time not thinking things like 'but what if it's because they're like this that they're able to make the kind of art I'm enjoying... what does that say about me as a peson??'
Learning that artists I grew up admiring being charged with some pretty gross crimes is just so... ugh. I can't even think of a word for it. It's heartbreaking and confusing and I hate it. Especially when I still find myself enjoying the thing even knowing the truth of the creator behind it.
It's worth noting how often the horrible things only start once fame and riches are acquired. The human brain doesn't seem capable of dealing with extreme wealth, power, and fame. Things really do start going wrong. I'm not saying these people would have been perfect angels without those corrupting influences, but it doesn't help.
So don't think of it as the sickness driving the art. Rather the success feeding the sickness. The basic idea that mental illness and destructive personalities are required for great art is both objectively incorrect and has been pretty harmful. A hard idea to escape in our society though.
@@CorwinFound Thank you for your reply, it was incredibly comforting. It IS a harmful way of thinking, and I hate how easily I didn't connect my worries to that mindset. I say this as a person with mental illnesses of her own. Still stuck with some shitty ableist ways of thinking, I guess... ugh. Thank you, again.
As a German, there are LOTS of works of art where i have to acknowledge the artist for what they were in the context of their time and divorce them from their art. It makes me SO sensitive to fashism in stories... I also grew up as Jehovah's Witness, which makes me very sensitive to cults, gaslighting and toxic relationships (God's an abusive husband to humanity).
But if you want a name, Heinz Rühmann would be at the top of my list. A brilliant actor who worked with the NSDAP government, but tried to stay out of politics as far as he could. He still did a little propaganda, but he also used his influence to get his jewish ex wife out of the country before the government made her disappear. It was an ugly time...
Hello fellow ex-JW!
At least Rühmann used his money/influence for some good. It makes me wonder just how many people today who claim that they would be “the first ones to stand up to fascist oppressors and violations of human rights” would actually go along to maintain the “peace and status quo” or would get caught up by the propaganda. It’s really disheartening, especially as an American. 😔
*fascism
Yes, English spelling, and grammar, are dumb. Good luck!
This is exactly why I haven’t bought a private island!
Want to sell: 1 island, lightly used. Bunch of crypto OBO 😅
Mine is Mel Gibson. I haven't watched a movie involving him made since his anti-Semitic and racist recordings were released, but I still love Forever Young and We Were Soldiers.
Yeah, I'm a big Mad Max fan- although I got into it through Fury Road, ironically enough- then watched the previous ones starring him afterwards. I think he's great in the role, but I basically see his portrayal of Max as the character, and not him, since he's garbage. Especially helpful that it's no longer him playing the character. I feel similar about Chevy Chase- his character is easily one of my favourites in Community, but I recognise that he's a piece of trash as a person, even to the rest of the cast and crew of that show, sadly.
I tell myself that there are a lot of other people whose livelihoods his films provided, and that he himself only ever got some small percent of total revenue, compared to all others. (And the studio bosses, though, screw them.)
Here's one I'm surpised hasn't gotten mentioned: there's a song that used to play in sports arenas all the time. It's a drum beat, guitar riff and the only lyrics are "Hey!" It's called "Rock and Roll, part 2." (The lesser known part 1 has lyrics). Ever wonder why you don't hear it anymore?
Because the singer made cp. And was a child m....... And he fled Briton because the authorities were on to him. I think he's now rotting in jail, but it took decades.
You can't deny that one song was good; there's a reason you heard it in sports arenas all the time (and I don't think gary glitter can proft off his old songs anymore), but there's a reason it's non grata in those same arenas.
Yeah, you don't wanna be in his gang.
What do you think about American Beauty (1999)? I thought it was bizarre how that film about a man obsessed with one of his daughter's teenage friends became so popular even before I knew about Kevin Spacey in real life.
THIS
That was rather problematic, but I think that was part of the point. I haven't seen the movie in many years, so I might be remembering it wrong. Part of the movie was that we just knew that he'd be dead by the end of the movie and that he was having a midlife crisis. Having that uncomfortable bit about the daughter's friend was necessary for the actual reason for his murder to be in question.
easiest paycheck he ever got. 'Kevin, be yourself...'
I own, and still enjoy the Harry Potter series (both the books & the movies). I still am playing Hogwarts Mystery, as I began playing before I heard about how disgusting the author is.
Led Zeppelin stole music from blues musicians, never giving full credit to those whose music they made millions off of. And then there is the fact that Jimmy Page "allegedly" had 14 year-old Lori Maddox kidnapped.
Just like Jerry Lee Lewis, Edgar Allen Poe married his cousin, when she was 13.
WWE is very problematic. I can make a reasonable argument for Benoit (brain damage, leading to severe dementia). There is no such excuse for Vince McMahon, who showed himself to be a power hungry tyrant. During the Attitude era, he let his freak flag fly freely, claiming it to be just a persona. An act. We now know there was more truth than most people knew. His act was the "nice guy" we saw in the 80s and early 90s.
So yeah, I got plenty of problematic faves. I wish you hadn't let me know about Copperfield. It just added one more to a growing list. 😟
As a guy who'd admired Theodore Roosevelt for most of his life, I get this.
Liking old rock and pop music is the problematic-ist(?) of faves for me. From the degeneracy of Chuck Berry and Jimmy Page to the heartbreaking stories of familial trauma in the Beach Boys and the Jackson Five, it's a tough pill to swallow all around. Thanks for giving a take on the subject, Steve.
I hadn't heard bad stuff about Jimmy Page, but I can't say I'm too surprised, given stories about so many classic rockers.
I can totally relate. My biggest example of a problematic fave is Phil Anselmo from Pantera. I grew up with his band's music, and it was a crucial part of me evolving from an introverted outcast kid into a person with both self reflection and self esteem alike. And then... he throws up a Siegheil pose and an audible "White Power" at a liveshow. I know he apologized for it, and I know he did a lot or charity stuff before that and since. And yet... to me his legacy is stained for good, and I can't fully get past it. I still listen to and enjoy Pantera, Down and Superjoint Ritual. But I won't put any more money towards his work.
I find I can only enjoy their stuff as covers these days. Pantera was prob my biggest fail of media literacy. I thought, based on Vulgar Display, that they were specifically an ANTI-racist band like Biohazard. Had no idea about the confederate imagery as I hadn't seen them live. Sigh. It's tough.
I'm fortunate that the majority of my social circle support Palestine. Though I have lost some friends over speaking out in support.
Keep doing what you're doing, Jessie. It's important work.
Respect. Being a decent human being ain't easy sometimes. It should be, but it isn't always, sadly.
I think this is one of the most interesting variations of the Overton Window I've seen. The answer to the question of "What happened to really guilty pleasures?" is that they became so bad in comparison that they became more or less unspeakable.
When you think about what a guilty pleasure would have been in the bronze age, it becomes a lot more clear.
Brits of my generation (born late 70's to early 80's) all remembe a TV personality and child focused entertainer called Jimmy Saville. Look him up. Not sure if he counts though, since we all loathe him now.
I remember your video with Stuffy and gang about Superman Returns. A sad and thoughtful look at the inner conflict.
For me with "problematic faves" it really comes down to money. HP lovecraft is dead, and even when he was alive he wasn't pumping funding into hate groups. According to some he even "learned his lesson" but how much that holds true doesn't really matter. I know the problem, and I accept it. Rowling on the other hand is very much alive, very active in continuing to spread her hate, and using the money and influence she gets from her works to keep doing harm. Even if I loved the books and films, I can't in good faith buy merch, participate in fandom, spread her works uncritically, knowing how tight of control she still has on her works. I won't piss in anyone's cheerios over it, but she and her works are dead to me personally.
I'm a fan of Sabaton but even though the members claim they are not neo-Nazis, it unfortunately has that reputation or is used by those groups. I liked the stories it helped tell about history, especially lesser known events, but yeah, very problematic
I'm a big Cthulhu Mythos fan and Benoit was also one of my favourite wrestlers growing up so yeah...
Ah, Lovecradt -- The H.P. stands for "Highly Problematic."
I remember finding music that I immediately loved and listened to for months straight, even buying a t-shirt. It was a sobering afternoon when I looked up who the guy behind Burzum was.
if you want raw atmospheric Black Metal that isn't made by a nazi, try Paysage d'Hiver.
"a movie where a bunch of animals were killed during production"
Milo and Otis fans in shambles
The whole myth of lemmings committing suicide by jumping off of cliffs was from an old Disney doc, where the filmmakers literally drove them towards their deaths, even tossing some into the water.
The number of people who are saying “I was terrified to see Mister Rogers in the thumbnail” but we clicked on it, anyway…
At least we’re okay with being willing to learn about it, potentially.
giving up liking works of artistist, musicians, writers, actors, etc....should be evaluated on a case by case basis....depending on the problematic person and the individual giving up that problematic person's works.....if we were all to give up enjoying those works everytime the world finds out these people did something wrong, no one would ever be able to enjoy movies, art, music, books are anything ever again...why, you ask? because NO ONE on the face of this earth is free of sin....growing up, because of my father, i was homophobic and i said a lot of bad things about gay people...at the age of 24 i realized i'm gay....everyone has messed up, everyone has flaws, everyon has darkness in their past....the trick to all of this, don't support the bad behavior, but don't make yourself miserable by giving up everything you like....i cannot tell you where the point is between the two, you have to figure it for yourself and don't base it on someone else's decission....you have to make the choice for yourself
Some of mine
David Chapelle is, without a doubt, a master of comedy, with incredible skill. But nowadays watching him is more of "ok, who are you going to insult today... aha, is the trans again. Oh, and gays again"
I used to be a very devoted follower of comics writer Warren Ellis, bought everything he wrote, spent a lot of time in his internet forums when he had them, and subscribed to his email list when he switched to that. And then he got like a hundred women saying he basically coerced them for sex and used his position to do so. While the allegations arent as "bad" as it could be, quotes because they were bad, is just not child abuse or rape, it really impacted his career. He reciently restarted the email list and I still havent unsubscribed... but I dont read the emails. I have him in a limbo where I dont want to do either of those things. Still, his work is some of the best comics of the last decades, but now it has all a shadow over it.
Fantastic discussion. Death of the artist can get so weird and hard. And I feel the same on wrestling.
Soooo am I a creep for wanting a private island? I swear I don't have any nefarious motives, I just really like when stuff stays wherever I put it down. My memory has never really worked right, and my disordered looking workspaces have always been an integral part of my process.
"veniel sin" - spoken like a former Catholic 🙂
It really depends on the day whether I separate the art from the artist, or just keep my distance from them altogether. You gotta hope you're making the right call in those moments. This also applies to Shadyvox, Doug walker, Terry Rossio, Tara Strong, Chris Savino, Harvey Schnider, Dan Weinstein, and all of the other ones...
Lmao I lost it at the imagined “wholesome activities” of David Copperfield
Mine is Marion Zimmer Bradley. The Mists of Avalon is not only a great book, but it influenced many of us spiritually. There's also a ton of problematic shit in the books. And she was one of the worst kinds of people in the world.
But Mists is important to me. I still listen to the audio book once a year.
I know who the author was.
I also know that Mists is irreplaceable to me.
I've been avoiding rereading Mists since I found out about MZB's....uh.........stuff. It's an amazing book! But there's a lot in it I can recall that I'm sure would now trigger my "Oh, girl, you were telling on yourself" reaction.
I only found out about MZB's... issues this year, and it kind of crushed me a bit. That book was so important to me 25 yrs ago that I even got a crescent moon like the Avalon priestesses tattooed on the back of my neck. Now I don't know if I can ever read a onetime favourite book again. I think I'm grieving my Mists.
I feel this one too. I went to her house multiple times, and even helped a friend do a photo shoot (clothed!!) of her daughter - the one who later made the accusations - when she was in her mid-teens. I have multiple friends who got their start in writing by publishing in her Sword & Sorcery anthologies. MZB’s Darkover novels were incredibly important to me in several ways. And yeah, Mists of Avalon is nearly as foundational as Stranger in a Strange Land (by Heinlein, also kinda problematic) is in the Pagan circles in which I circulate. I was gutted to learn the full extent of the issues with her and her husband. I wanted so much to pretend it was all him. It’s so confusing and disappointing, and it’s hard to unsee it once seen, even in her novels. 😢
The only good private island owner is Jeff Tracy - but there are stings attached , , ,
And his kids just won't leave home. 😅
I want to own an Island in order to have my own secret base, like in a spy film.
Knut Hamsun (Hunger) and Louis-Ferdinand Céline (Journey to the End of the Night) are two novelists I loved as a young man. It was years later that I discovered Hamsun was a Quisling, who was prosecuted by Norway for treason after the war, and Céline was a raging anti-Semite and a Nazi sympathiser! FFS!
I suppose the clues were there all along, but I found the 'outsider' heroes to be attractive when I was in my late teens and early 20s. Neither book was overtly political, and my sympathies were completely the opposite - so much so I was a target for local neo-Nazis (called the National Front in the UK) in my home town in the 1970s. Had to move to be safe!
I would say mine is Ren and Stimpy. The sting is kinda eased by the fact John K was fired after season 2 and, at least from stuff i've heard over the years, Bob Camp was more responsible for the show's success, especially after they put him in charge.
That's good to know, since I like Ren and Stimpy too.
Add Billy West to the good list, too.
I feel this same thing, for the same person. I too was glued to the TV during David Copperfield specials, and eagerly anticipated them.
The hardest thing about about Harry Potter for me is so much of it in ingrained in my brain and I haven't been able to find a delete button. I was 12 when the first book came out (in the USA) I grew up with these stories. I have though about separating the art from the artiest but just haven't been able too, her horrible tirades and opinions have sucked the joy out of it for me. But all that information still lives rent free in my head I can call up all the facts and information with out any effort, and there is still a part of me that misses it.
I'd most certainly own my own island but honestly, just to get away from everyone else.
I just hope Penn Jillette never turns out to be anything but the standup man of conscience he appears to be. His magic act is alright too.
Teller is the secret evil one 😋
Yeah pretty amazing how he was a reasonable Libertarian and then went back on it in a reasonable and rational way. Rare indeed
He's had an evolution. Penn and Teller promoted some bad ideas on their "Bullshit!" show, mixing paranormal debunking with things like claims that secondhand smoke can't hurt you. I think he gradually realized how damaging that had been.
The recycling episode of _Bullshit!_ was terrible too - but typically Libertarian / capitalist. Their whole argument boiled down to 'recycling is bullshit because you can't make a profit out of it'. Way to miss the point, guys.
Was Hitchens the one who most persuasively argued Penn out of the childish Libertarian philosophy?
You have to separate the art from the artist. DIg deep enough and everyone becomes problematic in some way, to some one. If one "cancels" out every transgression, one will soon find themselves in an artless world, and no one wants that.
Except for Mister Rogers, of course. You can always watch that.
Separation can only go so far, especially if the transgressions are extreme or ongoing, you wouldn’t want to put money towards an album that was actively going towards hate groups for example
To be fair about Harry Potter, there was a LONG time between when the art came out and when it became known that she was such a bigot. We already had bought the books, and the DVDs, and seen the films in theatres. I won’t re-read them now. Just like I had a lot of Cosby’s stand-up stuff on vinyl… and I don’t no more. And a lot of Rowling’s other problems were not so obvious, like how anti-Semitic the goblins are made out to be (well… they clearly are, and ways were, but back then we weren’t looking that deeply into the nuances).
Back then people also assumed that she couldn't be such a Piece of Shit that she would do something like that deliberately
Hitchcock. The man is single handedly responsible for some of the greatest leaps forward in the development of cinematic language but his personal life is difficult to reconcile with his artistry.
This is all too common among musicians. My problematic fave is probably Michael Gira of Swans. He's been accused of SA and although there is reason to believe the accusations are frivolous there's no way to *know* know. He has also claimed in an interview that he "was both the perpetrator of r--- and was r---- myself" as a teen. I don't know that you can or even should separate the art from the artist in this case. His career is defined by the rage, self-loathing and misery of his music. By not acknowledging the man who made it, the art is devalued.
I think separating the art from the artist is usually impossible. You can't judge a piece of art without the context in which it exists and the artist is an essential part of that context. It's one aspect of the art that we can choose to put up with or not, but cannot ignore. Wether one *should* choose to accept that is no easy question. I think that ultimately depends not so much on what the artist actually did, but on the way the artist exists in relation to their art (and of course a substantial dose of personal bias). Are they alive or dead? Do they financially benefit from the consumption of their art? How does their art interface with their problematic behaviour? How does the artist use their platform?
I would probably feel less guilty appreciating the work of a small artist who was convicted of murder, spent 35 years in prison and expresses their regrets in life through idk experimental short films or something as opposed to an artist with a massive following who spreads homophobia among their fans and makes substantial donations to fringe political organisations, even though being a murderer is worse than being a homophobe.
Thomas Jefferson was probably my worst problematic fav.
My personal line is that I do not contribute financially to problematic individuals
The ones that spring to mind were basically any of the Beat Generation. Particularly Kerouac. I will always owe thanks to his (admittedly not great in retrospect) writing for Dharma Bums and OTR. I adored them as a young adult. Mostly horrible person though. And thats before you get on to Burroughs who shot his wife.
Oh yes, especially Cassidy. Ginsberg has his awful proclivities, as well. I bonded with my college advisor over road literature, and we had quite a few discussions over Kerouac's life and work, and how some people still emulate the wrong things from them.
Are you saying that we have to have suspicions about The Thunderbirds' Tracy Island?!? Noooooo......! There goes my childhood memories!
😄
If they're cartoon characters they get a pass.
@@alanpennie - 😆
Ever wonder how all those underground caverns got excavated & theyre still secret? Either slave labour & theres a ton of bodies down there or Papa Tracy used his own kids (from a very ypung age given how long it'd take) so probably has a cult like control over them. & then theres the question of where his money came from...
Orson Scott Card is probably my biggest problematic fave
I don't "separate the art from the artist" instead I "enjoy the art in spite of the artist" i.e. no spending direct dollars, just used, library etc. and recognize that the person who made a thing I like is a bad person.