He also expected to lose, he didn't want to panic his men and civilians, you'll notice he loudly boasts about outlasting them and stuff to sound inspirational, but he knows the armies of evil are coming for his people not crops or villages as Aragorn said, hence the following from Theoden (in a quieter tone) "my men's moral hangs by a thread" and the follow up about being alone and nobody coming to help. He fully expected him and his kingdom to fall.
@@cheesysealAnon also, to be fair. His actions were completely understandable and in fact probably the best scenario. They would have completely been killed off if they stayed in Edoras. Plus he wasn't expecting super orcs. Just thank God there are no goblets there that were able to climb the walls like in moria
@@The..Boulder he had a better chance to stand within a stone stronghold with only one way in rather than surrounded in an open field capital with wooden walls
Why does everybody hate on Theoden, poor fella wakes up from an evil wizards curse and finds out his only son is dead, his nephew is banished with most of his warriors and there's an army of 10,000 super orcs coming. He moves his people from the frigging wooden walled city to an actual fortress and then stays to defend them. All the while he's got people questioning his motives like why not ask Gondor for help, the same Gondor that's currently being shat on by Mordor and couldn't send any help even if they wanted to.
they just dont get that Theoden is hurting and part of him just wants to end his life in glory, he doesnt mean to be bitter, but he's rightfully angry.
Honestly my biggest critcism is that he has the best calvary on the middle earth and decided to bet on a siege. Like you guys are the horse masters, your whole land its plains, just keep harrasing the fuckers until they all die
@@johnj.spurgin7037 Gandalf had no right to criticize both Theoden and Denethor. They are simple men that are ruling nations as best they can, facing legions of bloodthirsty creatures that only kill and pillage, whilst seeing their families being taken away from them. Gandalf has been around even before the world came to be, has lots of powers, was taught by the wisest beings, and can never die for good.
Theoden deserve empathy. His son was recently killed, his nephew was banished by his traitorous advisor, all while cursed by Saruman. He may act stubbornly, but Theoden is trying to act bravely for his people while still grieving his son.
He also expects to lose, but he doesn't want to panic people by explaining the situation properly, thats why he loudly boasts about outlasting the army or Saruman. He thought he and his men would die there, that's why he said "if we are to end, I would make us have such an end, that we'll be worthy of remembrance", he was prepared to go out fighting
Theoden is rejecting Gandalf & Aragorn's advice for a very good reason: For who-knows-how-long, he has been manipulated by a wizard and advisor he trusted until he lost his very self. Now, suddenly, he is being offered advice from a wizard and a trustworthy advisor. It would be weirder if he *didn't* reject them...
Nope, it's jsut another poor change PJ did to create artificial drama. Book Theoden wasn't some insecure defeatist, going to Helms Deep was gandalf's idea - and riding out to fight Saruman was Theoden's - so he actually did listen to advice, because he managed his pride as king with wisdom and humility. As much as I enjoy the movies, people need to stop defending PJ's poor descisions in changing Tolkien's narrative and rewriting his characters...
You do realize about half the changes PJ made are changes to the narrative TOLKIEN ACTUALLY SUGGESTED BE MADE in order to streamline and condense his book's narrative and cast enough to be successfully made into a film while generally keeping the narrative and themes as preserved as possible, right? What characters can and should be omitted (for instance he was adamant that Bombadil be cut because while he and the Barrow Wight incident were great for worldbuilding in the novel, in a film he felt the detour there would grind the pacing to a halt. Just as example) , what scenes were absolutely critical to include, (he suggested focusing on Helm's Deep over the Siege of Isengard and even omitting the Siege outright if both could not be shown as Helm's Deep was more important overall), for instance what could be changed and moved around, and what characters with similar or redundant roles could just be combined together to reduce bloat Tolkien actually wrote a 'here make these changes for film' instruction set for LOTR, which PJ apparently read AND FOLLOWED. Which is why, despite the changes, the LOTR films STILL FEEL LIKE LOTR and still feels like HIS work: because it actually WAS. Sadly, since Tolkien never considered The Hobbit might be considered for the big screen he never wrote any such instructions for it, which is largely, I feel, why that series of movies went awry on a level LOTR didn't.
@@The_Real_Mr_Alinsecure??? Lol you can't even properly explain this , when clearly in the movie he wasn't like that at all , the poor guy literally woke up from a nightmare and learned his son is dead and war is happening soon . The most logical plan was defending, and oooh wait , didn't they survive ?? You're just another pathetic viewer here who has no idea how a story should be written, sit the F down and never open your mouth in this comment section kid.
The Story of the entwives is actually pretty sad, the ents and entwives lived apart, since the ents liked sheperding their forests but the entwives like to be out in open fields and meadows tending to their gardens. And despite both being very attached to the plantlife they took care of the ents loved the entwives so much they occasionally set out on pilgrimages to the entwives' gardens just to see them again. Until one day they came to the meadows, and found them barren and scorched (presumably by Morgoth/Sauron's forces), with no entwives anywhere. The ents have been searching for them ever since but it's been so long they can now no longer recall what they even looked like.
My personal Theory is that the Entwives are in or near The Shire, Given their love for cultivated plants just like the hobbits. Additionally, in one of the first chapters of Fellowship, Sam mentions another hobbit who saw something "As big as an Elm tree, and Walking!" The other hobbits dismiss it out of hand, but it's just enough for me.
sauron in his retreat from the west during the second age after the fall of angmar they burned the southern greenwood so the men and elves couldnt encroach in secret on mordor, on the map you see today its called the brown lands the entwives lived in greenwood and the ents lived in fangorn they met in the gap south of Galadriels realm
@@canadianbakin1304 Angmar didn't exist in the Second Age, it was founded in the Third Age by the Witch-king while Sauron was still in hiding at Dol Guldur. Sauron burned the Entwives' gardens as a scorched earth tactic to hinder the advance of the Last Alliance.
In Middle Earth : Shadow of War there's the Spirit of Carnan, it's possible she is a surviving entwife, or she was one and was changed after the rest were destroyed.
I know in the books the elves dont actually come to help. But those elves that came in the movie have got to be the greatest group of badasses ever. Imagine what the pitch to them was: "Hey everyone, we can go to the undying lands and live forever, or we can march across the continent to what is definitely certain death just to kick ass one last time and do what is right... Now who's comin?" True badasses right there
The thing that bothers me is the logistics of it all, because how the fuck did they get there before the Uruk-Hai and without coming across them? When did they depart from Lorien?
@WJS774 he's never been a king nor did he want to be though. And he does learn from him. The "And I shall die as one of them" and "thats a good sword" comes from being influenced by Theoden and his desire to lead and protect his people above all to the best of their ability.
@WJS774 Actually Theoden and the people of Rohan give Aragon something quite big. They start to take away his distrust of ‘men’ and the folly of the old kings. At the beginning Aragon hates the idea of being king one day as to him it was the kings of men who fell to the influences of desire, power and glory. That men are to weak willed and corrupt to ever hold power over Middle Earth. However, Thoeden gives him pause and in many ways example and hope about the kings of men. A reviewing of the kings of men now to the story’s of old and past. Theoden never fellow to greed, power or corruption, he fell under dark influence, corrupt by the will of Saruman - a godly wizard who has actually fallen to the corruption of Mordor. And on being reworken, instead of riding out to seek glory against the enemy his first priority is to seek refuge and safety for his people first. His distrust of allies comes quite bitterly from his trust in Saruman who has turned him into a puppet. And now being told to ask for Gondor’s aide, a place that has not come to their aide even as raiders, orcs and bandits attack its people? He is disillusioned but as like his influence and actions help to inspire Aragon, so does the Elves coming to his aid go onto influence his later decisions. And not only does Theoden influence Aragon so does the people or Rohan in their defence of Helm’s Deep. The people of Man are weak, unable to stand up to the darkness before them, too cowardly to be heroes. But as the people of Rohan show, not only do they fight until the very end against the hordes of Isengard, the find victory. Even when they could break and run, they hold to the end defending the Keep and their king. And this is why Aragon gets so annoyed and both Legolas and Theoden. Because Legolas questions the people, Aragon takes it as a statement against the people of man. He’s essentially having an Elf tell him that the people of man are again weak and unable to do their duty and save their people. And when he see Theoden broken, he feels it being reinforced, the idea that this inspiration of a king can be broken, the idea that Theoden could once again fall into the folly of the same kings he dares dread angers him as he knows that is not said man. He is grieving for both his son and people, and after so long has finally began to break and show it properly. But, Aragon knows now that it falls onto a king and leader not to let despair and grief overtake one, but a need to stand strong even in the face of the enemy and so much on one’s shoulders. And that’s what he does for Theoden, he reinvigorates said man and puts him back on track. And as we see it influences him greatly and will come in great boon later.
Fun fact: in the books, the Council of Elrond was not planned by anyone in attendance. Everyone who was there had gone to Elrond for different reasons. Boromir was there because Faramir had been sent dreams by literal God telling him to go to Rivendell, but their father wouldn’t listen. Eventually, Boromir told Denethor that he had the same dream and he sent Boromir instead of Faramir. Also, when Faramir initially saw the One Ring his response boiled down to “holy shit, that’s the evil ring, get the fuck out of here, go, destroy that shit before it tempts my men.”
I think I prefer how the movie worked it. Instead of relying on mystic "a dream said so" logic, it makes sense that a council would be called so that everybody can figure out what to do. As for Faramir, it's mucu more dramatic for him to be initially tempted just like everyone else (especially his brother) is. Only for him to reject it in the end and show strength.
The Last March of the Ents is even more hype in the books. They deliberate and choose to go to war and start marching off singing about how they are going to tear apart Isengard so loudly the earth shakes. Merry and Pippin think the song is an exaggeration, until they see what the ents do. They literally rip apart stone and iron with their hands and throw chunks of the walls hundreds of feet in the air. And that's before Saruman tries lighting them on fire and they get mad.
It's such an awesome bit I actually felt a bit disappointed the first time I watched the movie. After all that fuckery Saruman pulled, seeing the trees he underestimated absolutely lay waste to his white buttocks was priceless.
The absolute disrespect to Theoden is almost unbearable. The man suffered through doubt and possession, lost his son without being able to say good bye or properly mourn him. Woke up to basically try to forestall the destruction of his people in an almost unwinnable fight. Please show some respect to one of the greatest side characters in the trilogy
While Theodan is a great character, and deserves the proper respect, that retrospect only comes from future rewatches. You only get a full measure of his character in RotK, and then looking back you can see his tragic arc. On first time viewing, Theodan in Two Towers appears as Alicia puts it, "a bitch"
@@Scapemaster00 If you have no understanding of the basic idea of "Undefeated stone fortress is better than wooden walls on a hill," then sure, I guess. Which seems to be the case here.
@@knightmare3197 not sure what specifically you're trying to call out there. I'm merely referring to how in a first time viewers eyes can appear cowardly or weak.
@@Scapemaster00 But that still doesn’t make sense. Because I’ve seen other reaction videos on the LOTR and most of them that talk about Theoden in Two Towers actually sympathise with him. Even still, it’s not that hard to understand that he’s not being hubris or stupid, but he’s just trying to put some smidge of hope for his people so that they don’t run off and flee, the “better to die fighting as a brave hero than run away like a coward” mentality.
Let’s take a look at theoden he’s been through a lot -has been under a mind control spell for a hot minute -lost his son -his nephew is banished -his advisor is a traitor -has to deal with an impending orc army -has to keep up a facade that’s fading for his soldiers and people Bro finally got free and had to deal with so much
Retreating to Helms Deep is actually the best thing he could hace done since it would be suicide to face such a big army on an open field. He just tries to protect his people.
Last I checked, Gimli was excited about the Horn at Helm’s Deep because it was of Dwarvish design. The sound it made would ricochet off the walls surrounding the Deep, amplifying it, and stunning the forces of any intruding armies but leaving defending ones unscathed. That’s why the Uruk-Hai are bumbling around while the horn is blasting.
23:37 When my toddler starts speaking and I don’t understand it because she’s still learning to speak I sometimes quote Treebeard and say “It doesn’t make much sense to me, but then again, you are very small.”
We better get an apology at the start of the next one for Theoden. The absolute disrespect and slander for this man. Meanwhile feeling sorry for Smeagol, cant wait for the 180 on both these characters next movie.
4:00 No it's literal immortality. Galadriel has been knocking around since the First Age. Even if their bodies are destroyed, an Elf's spirit is bound to Arda and lingers in Valinor, much like Gandalf's does, until the Valar replace his lost body. Only grief can truly destroy their souls.
The movies are greatly shortened in length and cover much less than the books do. Saruman had been building an army of Man and Orcs for 70-ish years. So we can expect the army to be older than a year.
Death is a mystery to the Elves. In Tolkien's world, the elves are tied to the world. They're immortal. Even if they are killed their souls end up in the West and they are given new bodies there (one or two have even returned to Middle Earth). God gave men the Gift of Death. When men die, though their souls spend a brief time in the West, they join God Beyond the world because He has some other plan for them beyond the knowledge of the elves. So, Elrond's daughter binding herself to the mortal life of man means they won't even be together in the West. Her spirit will follow Aragorn's Beyond the world.
Its interesting that Elrond is actually a half-elf himself (though both his parents were half-elfs, but also legendary heroes too), It's Elrond's family line that got the exclusive gift to choose their mortality. His parents chose immortality but sort of werent allowed to come back to Middle Earth (though his father preferred humanity), and Elrond's brother also chose mortality and died. But one of his descendants through many many generations in Aragorn. So I can see how Elrond could be bitter about mortality, since he's separated from his parents and his brother died. (additionally his wife was tortured by orcs and left to the western paradise too)
@@Pink.andahalf That still only counts as one. (Admittedly he spent a lot of the battle bailing Aragorn and Gimli out of the perilous situations they got themselves in. Like pulling them both up a castle wall.) In D&D terms, Legolas is the build with like a +4to hit and which does 1d6 damage (not really a lot) but he's put his skills into perception and acrobatics to the point where he can't roll below a 15 for those so he keeps describing his attacks in flamboyant ways knowing the GM will give him a damage boost if he passes the easy skill check but otherwise can't kill much. Gimli on the other hand has enough health that the NPCs need to drag him away from the fight for it to have stakes, a +6 to hit and a big chopping axe which does 1d10 damage so he just spends every turn asking where the nearest enemy is, moving up to them and saying "I hit them with my axe." at which point the enemy dies and he moves on. (Aragorn also has big numbers but the GM has been promising him his magic item for a while now and he's really into the RP of commanding the troops and inspiring the NPCs so he doesn't attack as much as use his action to help various NPC.)
So, some more book vs movie details, which I hope aren't annoying: Faramir and Denethor were significantly changed. For starters, Faramir refuses the Ring instantly. He's much more of...lacking a better word, a nerd. Denethor does favor Boromir, because Boromir is more of a warrior and a leader in a time of war. Denethor is also...not kinder, but the movie casts him in a bad light. He's a genuine badass who literally sleeps in his armor to keep himself ready at all times, and one of the strongest wills in the world. It's just he's been at war with Mordor for a very long time and is losing hope. Every day more people die, things get worse, Sauron gets stronger. Keep stretching the strongest steel and eventually it will snap.
Denethor is so underrated, like you said, he has one of the strongest wills. He was DIRECTLY battling Sauron in a contest of wills for 40 YEARS! And not once did Sauron corrupt him. That alone easily puts Denethor II in the top 15 humans of middle earth. PS: Let us not forget that Denethor is a descendant of Fingolfin
What makes Helms Deep such a great war scene, especially given today's standard of film making, is the lighting. Yes it takes place during the dark, but Jackson was so smart making the whole scene visible by adding artificial lighting so the audience can see what is happening. Don't know why film makers have such a hard to process this idea in the modern media world.
I will NEVER fail to laugh at Saruman stopping Wormtongue getting any closer with the candle to the boom sand. Like, he's not even angry, he knows dam well Wormtongue has no idea what it is or what he is LITERALLY inches from causing. It's like a dad stopping a toddler from sticking their hand on the stove burner. Just, a completely normal realistic 'Don'tdothat.' You can almost envision Saruman patiently explaining what that stuff is and the danger of introducing it to a flame just after the scene cut while wormtongue is just going 'Oh, that is awesome! And I almost did that HERE. Holy crap!'
@@Tayvin4042 I hope they do! She really misunderstood Theoden as a character in this movie. I guess we’re still salty due to the grieving over the passing of Bernard Hill but still Alicia really disrespected Theoden. Calling him a “shitty ass king” really made boil up inside.
@@ulfberht4431 I don't think she misunderstood him actually. Theoden is meant to be shown at his lowest and weakest point, being defeatist at worst, only to grow bolder and wiser in the defense of his people, culminating in his heroic charge at the end of the Helm's Deep battle and continuing on to his actions in RotK. His arc is on him going from one of Rohan's weakest kings, to one of its greatest that will be forever remembered. I'm sure Alicia will love him by the time we get to Pellenor.
"Why are they always walking places?" The original Lord of the Rings books are basically written as a travelogue, with intricate descriptions of every location they go through and every important thing they see. Tolkien was most interested in creating the world, establishing its cultures, and building its history. Stuff like action and characterization, meanwhile, often tend to take a backseat, relatively speaking. This creates some interesting disparities between the books and the films. For example, establishing shots that might take no more than ten seconds in the film could take up half a dozen pages, while the big momentous battles that take up half an hour of screentime might be done in a page or two. If you ever have the chance, it's worth reading just to make the comparison.
Watsonian reason: Flat parts of Middle-Earth like Gondor and Rohan are full of people. And Gandalf and the 3 avengers do ride horses there.. Frodo and Sam especially are taking the long way 'round Mordor.
Honestly, people give Theoden too much grief in the Helm's Deep preparation sequences. He's right, what is he supposed to do? "Call for help!" My brother in Christ, Aragorn says that the uruk hai will arrive by nightfall. There is literally no way any riders deployed then will get anywhere and then for anyone else to have time to muster forces and march to Theoden's aid *and* arrive before Saruman's army arrives. Yes, Eomer arrives the next morning--and in the books, it's Erkenbrand(sp?)--but that's because Gandalf rode out to get help days prior. Sending men out to gather more help won't actually make any difference. So Theoden is doing his absolute best with the meager forces he has on hand, and our heroes are following him around going "Hey man, this isn't going to be good enough. You're fucked. You're not doing enough. You're wrong." etc etc. Honestly, rare L for Aragorn and the boys.
Also consider the location. To draw off a real engagement, 300 Spartans held off an enemy larger by orders of magnitude by forcing them to engage in a narrow pass to neutralize their numbers advantage. Helms Deep let's the defenders focus on (effectively) one direction, from the superior position of the wall top, without threat of being flanked and annihilated. It took the Uruks BLOWING UP THE WALL to catastrophically compromise the defense. Without that, the fortress could've held for a fair time longer.
alicia, in regards to the entwives, the problem is the area that they inhabited is now the marshes of the deaththey didn't "leave" most of them were genocided by sauron when he burned the brown lands
No wonder Boromir was in such a hurry to get back to Gondor: not only was he pulled from the front lines, not only did his jerk father give him an underhanded mission to betray his friends, on top of all this, Boromir’s little brother was serving at the front lines this whole time. And Boromir was being exposed to the One Ring. It’s a wonder he lasted as long as he did.
The sad thing is that Faramir was originally supposed to be the one to go to Rivendale in the book. And the Faramir in the book is way more honorable than the one portrayed in the movies. He would not have fallen into temptation to the ring and he would not have brought it back to Gondor or try to take it from Frodo. The only reason why Boromir ended up going was because he didn't want his little brother to make such a treacherous trip to Rivendale
@@The..Boulder Though Boromir forcing Frodo to separate from the rest ultimately proved to be for the best, the ring would have corrupted them all and the Fellowship already wasn't in agreement on what direction to go after the Anduin River. Boromir forcing Frodo's hand ultimately kept the ring away from both Gondor and Rohan/Isengard, whilst Faramir not succumbing in the same way may have aultimately ended in either them travelling to either location with the ring or even in a slower and more fatal corruption of the party. Faramir may have only been given the visions first so that Boromir would take them seriously and be in the right place at the right time to do the wrong thing.
Helms Deep is basically a nuclear bunker that has stood for millennia. Nobody really could predict that Sarumon, basically an ANGEL, would create a bunker buster.
Fun fact: the extras playing the Uruk-hai were a bit miserable being drenched in water and having to do many reshoots. To keep their spirits up, many performed the haka (a Maori chant native in New Zealand) to motivate themselves. Even the battle chants they do in the movie are similar to a haka war cry.
IIRC In the first movie, he's just a commoner bumping into the hobbits as they enter Bree. Won't spoil the third one but it's a bit more obvious than the first two which are "blink and you'll miss it" cameos.
The trees at the end of the movie killing off the rest of the Uruk-hai were the ones Pippin saw moving in the distance. Notice how they weren’t there in front of Helm’s Deep earlier before the attack. Although they’re not Ents, they are sentient and use their roots to travel. Those suckers walked all the way to Helm’s Deep just to cut off the Uruk-hai and finish them off. That’s why Eomer (Karl Urban’s character; the blonde girl’s brother) told everyone to stay away from the forest. He noticed those trees came out of nowhere and knew they were dangerous.
The thing with Elrond and Arwen is, Elrond is called "Elrond Half-Elven," because his parents were a human and an elf, and has a twin brother, and he and his brother faced a similar choice. It wasn't exactly over love, but they could have either been immortal elves or mortal humans. Elrond chose immortality, and his twin brother chose mortality. So he watched as his brother aged and died (even if it was as a king among humans), and knows exactly what it is Arwen faces, having to watch someone they love grow old and die while staying ageless themselves. There's also a metaphysical thing involved, as elves and humans have different afterlives. Elves go to The West where their souls and bodies are reunited and they get to live forever among the gods, and humans... go somewhere else the Elves don't know. So Elrond is also trying to convince Arwen to have the same afterlife with him, instead of whatever afterlife the humans get. The sad part is, the books include "Appendices" that are made up of a lot of information that didn't fit in the actual story (about the ring and how to deal with it), and most of the romance between Aragorn and Arwen--including what happens to Arwen in the end--is in the Appendices.
The Elves are bound to the fate of Arda (the world), and Men are not. The ability to truly die and leave the hurts of the World is described as Iluvatar's (God's) gift to Men. But, in the history of Middle-Earth, many Men came to fear death because they did not what was on the other side of it. That fear caused some significant catastrophes in Middle-Earth history, and was part of the reason the Men who became the Nazgul accepted the Nine Rings.
@@nero1798 They are reborn in their flesh, but Glorfindel was a special exception. If an elf dies and/or goes to the West, they are not permitted to return.
Book note, in the books it is Gandalf who says retreat to helms deep and boromir's dad, Denethor, has been using a palantir to predict where the armies of mordor are moving, basically he has been destroying his own mind to give the armies of gondor a better chance
I keep forgetting Denethor's deliberate taking of psychic damage was for the sake of recon. Makes his insanity more of a tragedy when the films depict him as a massive A-hole I mean he is, but it begs the question of how much of that was from prolonged palantir use.
No, in the book they ride out to confront Saruman, and only retreat to Helm's Deep after they realise just how big his army is. In the film they have Theoden retreating to Helm's Deep when as far as they know, the biggest threat is rag-tag gangs of brigands?? Aragorn only tells him about the army _after_ they are already there.
@@johnj.spurgin7037 Yeah, it's really hard for the movie to show just how long Denethor, Faramir, and Boromir have been giving 110% fighting the good fight against Mordor, and it's a real shame.
21:00 Alicia give the old man a break will you! You really are disrespecting Theoden as a character. The man has suffered a lot with him being mind controlled, made to look withered before being revived, his son died, he had to abandon his city and despite the odds he’s trying his best to inspire hope to his people. And sure he did underestimate the power of the orcs but that’s no excuse to call him a “shitty ass king”. Come on! I really hope you regret calling him names by the third movie.
23:16 one of my favorite Easter eggs: if you listen very closely as the ladder falls, you’ll hear one of the Uruk-hai yell “COWABUNGA!” I hope more people will be able to hear it now, too.
Theoden wasnt holding grudge there. He was saying that we asked for help a lot of times, they never came then, why do you think they would come now? Gandalf could see that if they holed up here in the castle enemy would just gather strength and eventually overpower them, but Theoden knew that best chance of his people surviving is from advantage of the castle. On open field it would've been a massacre
Sam's speech at the end of this movie is one of the most genuinely moving things I've ever heard. It really rings true that Sam is the hero of the trilogy. Tolkien's own words.
21:30 definitely one of the best adapted scenes from the book. I'll always remember reading Tolkein's writing " And lo, Legolas of the Woodland Realm, fleet of foot and swift of bow, did leap upon the fallen shield of the Uruk-hai. Riding upon it; he flew down the stairs, and lo his bow sang as the feathered shafts did find their marks, and it was honestly so cool man you had to see it."
With Elrond's conversation with Arwen, there is a bit a of a play on words for those familiar with the lore. Aragorn's name as a child while growing up in the House of Elrond was "Estel", Sindarin Elvish for "hope".
4:26 That. That sentiment is PEAK. I have never heard anyone say that in a reaction, genuinely. They always say how manipulative it is and that’s it. I am SO thankful someone finally actually put it out there. Thank you.
Crazy how she sees that, but gives so little charity to Theoden after waking up from magic-induced senality to find out his home is being invaded and his son died
In the book , Saruman having pipeweed from the Shire hinted that Saruman had his claws into the Shire too. This was never explored by Jackson, as I'm guessing thought added stuff to the film that was not needed. Hence why Sam's gift from The Lady Galadriel was changed from the earth and seed, to the rope.
One thing to keep in mind about Denethor, the dad of Boromir and Faramir, that isnt brought up in the movies: He's been using a Palantir, a crystal ball like Saruman uses, to know what the Enemy is doing so he can defend his people better. Unfortunately Sauron has also been using it to basically haunt Denethor and feed him fake information to convince him that everything is gonna be lost no matter what. He's basically mentally ill.
You gotta remember that in the lore the Battle of Helm's Deep was the first time in Middle-Earth's history that saw the use of gunpowder on that scale, and the power of the wizards are much much subtler in the books than in the movies as well. So something being capable of doing that to those walls would be inconceivable to King Theoden.
Not many people, especially normies, would remember (because they don’t know about it) nor would they have the time to read about the lore prior to the movies.
@ulfberht4431 Yeah, fair. In hindsight I'm not sure why I started my comment with "You gotta remember that..." because I know she hasn't read the books.
This movie has such a somber tone to it. Really feels like a dark war movie. First one was so whimsical and magical and wonderous. This one tones it way down, with muted colors, less emphasis on magical and fantastic, and more on gritty and sad war drama. Can't wait for the reaction to the third one. Best have tissues ready for it. I just recently watched it in the cinema and I was ugly crying at so many moments. It was wonderful.
I sure hope she does! Her take on Theoden’s character was so poor and disrespectful. Which is ironic since she clearly does understand character motivations and empathy, yet she failed to understand why Theoden was acting the way he was before the Battle of Helm’s Deep and instead made just really cringy jokes about how “stupid” he was.
The ending is so perfect, Saruman in his overconfidence emptied all of Isengard to siege Rohan leaving very few guards beyond his basic workforce to repel the Ents. At the end he got his just desserts for defiling both nature and allying with Sauron.
The lyrics of "Gollum's Song" over the ending: "So in the end I will be what I will be No loyal friend Was ever there for me These tears you cry Have come too late Take back the lies The hurt, the blame! And you will weep When you face the end alone You are lost! You can never go home"
What I love about these films is it showcases Tolkiens quirks on how they linger on many symbolic things. He was a notorious walking partner as he would stop and observe everything. It shows such HOPE and despair together. It is a beautiful masterpiece
If it makes you feel better as a member of their race, the elves don't come to Helm's Deep in the book, so Haldir and all them live. The Boromir flashback is an extended edition scene.
The best part of this movie. The battle of helm's deep and the Ent's assault on Saruman's tower make for great action scenes. Also love the comedic events with the archer and the torch runner.
Its wonderful seeing how loved Theoden is, and how much Alicia is testing our love of her by, without the context of the next movie, shotting on him near relentlessly.
"We...we can win this. We can win the whole war." This is part of why Two Tower is my favourite. After all that despair, the hopeless odds, you realize, "Yes, we CAN win." Never, EVER give up!
3:43 Another factor to keep in mind here - Elrond's wife / Arwen's mother had to leave for the Undying lands across the sea over 200 years earlier due to pain from being captured and tortured by orcs. If Arwen remains in Middle Earth, the three of them will remain separated. Elrond will have to leave Arwen to reunite with his wife, and she would not see Arwen, at least not for many more years.
I remember watching these films in the movie theater as a child. On the edge of my seat from beginning to end. The Dolby sound blaring around, making my tiny body actually vibrate. I could have felt the emotions even if I were covering my ears. Watching these movies as a child on the big screen changed my brain chemistry forever. I had never experienced anything like it before, and I haven't since then.
HELMS DEEP was by far one of the BEST fights in this movie. That and the ENT WAR :D My favorite part of the Ent battle was when the THICC Ent smashed the orcs together XD
"In the book": The Ents do take forever to decide to act, and have been debating taking action since before the Hobbits even arrived. But ultimately they do decide to join the war, they don't refuse. As usual though, minor characters are not allowed their own agency, and it has to be a main character who _tricks_ Treebeard into joining the war, making him look like a very poor "shepherd of the trees" if he hasn't noticed that Saruman has cut down half his forest.
So if you're wondering how that elf army got there and where it came from the answer is: they didn't. They weren't there in the books because by the time word would have gotten to the elves the battle would have been over due to travel speed. And even if we try to explain it with Elrond having had a vision of foresight and sent the army out in advance so that they would reach the battle in time. Problem with that is that Elrond didn't have such an army to send. However, since Haldir is leading them we could assume the elves came from Lothlorien and that Elrond told Galadriel to send the army, which once again would have taken time they did not have, and they can't communicate telepathically over that far a distance like they do in the movie.
Hope The scream is a stock sound effect known as the Wilhelm scream. Typically used when a character falls from a great height or explosion. The scream is named after Private Wilhelm, a character in The Charge at Feather River, a 1953 western in which the character gets shot in the thigh by an arrow. 😂 In Theoden's defense he did not know about gunpowder or its affect on siege walls. 😆 Peter Jackson had a contest for the animators doing the best orc deaths via Ent. The best ones making it into the film. Lol. 😂
"Peter Jackson's use of the Wilhelm scream adds a cinematic joy to 'The Lord of the Rings' although it was used over half a dozen times throughout the second two films of the trilogy. Perhaps it can be heard clearest during the Battle for Helm's Deep when an elf falls off the wall". So yeah, it was not only used once but multiple times. Along with the stock sound of a deer in distress when an ENT was injured. A sound I have heard in many videos games and movies. Lol 🤣
Fun fact about this movie: During the filming of the Battle of Helm's Deep in Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, the production team used a full-weight battering ram instead of a lightweight prop. The actors portraying Uruk-hai were instructed to hit the fortress door with full force, aiming to create the most realistic shots possible. Despite their efforts, the door, which had been overbuilt by the art department, proved incredibly resilient. The stuntmen struggled to make any impact, highlighting the impressive construction quality of the set.
*_Leave Theoden alone, will you?_* *_He's a mourning king, that has to deal with an army specifically BIRTHED for war (Uruk-hai) and their weapons he's never dealt with before, got left hanging by Denethor multiple times, got his mind poisoned by Saruman and Grima for god knows how long, wakes up from his comatose trance to find all his fighters gone and his son dead, and now needs to make due with young boys and old men for soldiers in a world that to him feels like it has pretty much turned its back on him entirely, yet still chooses to stay and fight on his own._* *_Don't call him a b*tch again._*
Thing about Elrond is that he has lived a life of loss and seperation from those he loved. Being a half-elf himself along with his brother, they lost their parents durring the War of Wrath. His mother lost to the sea and turned into a bird, and his father now forever tasked to roam the stars. Later both brothers were given the choice to be counted among the men or elves. Elrond chose to live as an eternal elf, but his brother chose the life of mortal men, their lives to be seperated by time. And the day would come when his brother would pass. Further in his life, Elronds wife, Celebrían, would be attacked and tortured by orcs. Though she survived, her mental scars would never heal and she sailed off to the Undying Lands, never to return to Middle-Earth. Elronds fear of leaving behind his daughter is understandably hard on Elrond. And Elrond knows that even if Arwen stays, not only will time seperate her and Aragorn, but humans and elves are seperated even by death. When elves die, they reside in the Halls of Mandos (and may be given a chance to be re-embodied), but man do not and pass off into an unexplained afterlife.
19:10 That scream is the Wilhelm scream, and it is a tradition to put it at least once in every Hollywood movie, when possible, as an easter egg/ internal joke.
I'm glad you appreciated Elrond is coming from a very understandable place. Elrond has had a really bad run of things. His dad left forever and is off flying in the sky as a star. His brother chose to be mortal and die as a mortal man. His beloved wife was captured and tortured by orcs and basically died of emotional trauma. He's held onto hope a long time through a lot of pain. Also, Aragorn is descended from his brother. So they are extremely distant relatives. Also also, she's almost 3000 years old.
Unfortunatly movie Elrond is a bad case of character assassination, something PJ was especially guilty of. His defeatist bigotry doesn't exist in the book. That whole shtick combined with Arwen someone being connected to the fate of the ring for no reason is just sadly PJ continously trying to create an inflated and artificial sense of drama instead of trusting Tolkien's writing. As people have pointed out, Tolkien's work is all about hope, PJ's adaption has those moments all flipped to be about despair instead. Book Elrond's only "issue" was that he will only let Aragorn marry his daughter if he fulfills his destiny to become king and once he does has no objections. Similarly, book Aragorn never once doubts his right to rule or his destiny, and is even proud of his heritage, his "challenge" as a character is instead that he doesn't want to become - or be seen as - a conqueror and wants the people of Gondor to accept him of their own free will. Same thing with Faramir, Theoden or the Ents. Faramir wasn't a douchebag giving in to daddy issues in the book, and the Ents weren't stupid, they all agreed they needed to do something about Isengard but were taking a long time debating the details and the surprise came when the younger ents just decided they should march on Isengard and break it down by force. They all knew the forest's edge was being burnt and cut down. And Theoden wasn't some insecure pissant and actually listened to advice. And Rohan wasn't as magically understaffed as the movie suggests, Eomer was only imprisoned and not banished by Grima, so he was there all along and Gandalf instead rode out to regroup the fractured army forces fighting across western Rohan under the regional lord in order to bring them to Helms Deep, which also wasn't empty but already had it's lord and regiment alert and standing by when the main characters arrived. Also, going to Helm's Deep was Gandalf's idea to save lives, where Theoden wanted to ride out in a noble yet suicidal charge to meet Isengard's forces in the field. You could go on and on about the bad and unnecessary changes PJ made.
Pacing - the one thing that can make an hour and a half movie feel like a slog, but a nearly four hour movie could make you want more. Very, very astute assessment, Alicia.
One of my favorite quotes for the night fight of Helms Deep is when Sean Astin(Samwise) asked the cinematographer where the light for the scene was coming from and he said "Same place as the music"
Fun fact, the Orc chanting right before the battle started was recorded at a rugby game in New Zealand. Peter Jackson went out on the field at half time and got the whole crowd to do chant.
28:27 - 28:48 🥺🥹Samwise Gamgee's speech here about good in the world that's worth fighting for gives me hope, and its so fitting even now when all we can see is the worst in people during the wars that are going on over sea. That most of the "evil" we see going on come from people who don't have all the answers and are acting out of fear and anger for not knowing enough to do the right thing. But like Sam says, the darkness that hangs over us and clouds our judgment is a passing thing, and eventually, love, kindness, and peace win out. We all need someone like Sanwise the Brave.
17:450 The sounds of big amount of orcs in these movies were recorded in rugby stadiums in New Zealand. Also a curiosity, most of the extras playing the orcs are in fact women.
When it comes to Elrond's position on Arwen and Aragorn's relationship, Elrond is known as Elrond Half-Elven, his mother was elven and his father was human. He even had a twin brother, when they came of age they were given a choice, live as man or elf. Elrond chose the immortality of an elven life, whereas his brother chose a mortal human life, starting the line of the Dúnedain kings. Elrond is intimately familiar with this extremely difficult choice.
Alicia, I really think you severely and unfairly misjudged Theoden when he was saying “oh we can handle them” despite the odds. He wasn’t saying it out of hubris or pride. Rather he was saying it to give a small smidge of hope for his people. As a King or Queen, while it is important to be smart and tactical, it’s also important to inspire hope even if the odds of winning is low. Theoden probably knows that they won’t win this battle, but if he looked like a sad coward to his people and his soldiers, then that will only make things worse for him and his people. Even if they can’t win due to them being out numbered 3 to 1, at least give them the mental strength to last long enough and die as heroes. I’m honestly a bit mad that you didn’t understand that and just joked about him ignoring the odds stacked against him. Kinda disrespectful.
The movies do Denethor a disservice. He was greatest ruler of his time. The reason why he was so fond of Boromir is because he resembled his mother. Faramir was too much like Denethor, so he took one look at him and saw not that he had inherited his good qualities, but he saw only his own flaws reflected back at him. And he knew at some level that he himself was falling so he expected Faramir to do the same. The fact that Faramir did not spend almost hundred years in mental combat with Sauron and thus was neither weary nor depressed did not occur to Denethor.
Ok so the story of Faramir and Boromir's father is fascinating and not quite fairly represented but since I do not want to spoil anything I will leave further info for the next videos when relevant. Oh and who else does thing where the New Year starts with Theoden saying "So,i t begins". And as usual for more lore and interesting bits feel free to ask.
2:10 - Vigo Mortensen loved his horse in the movie so much that he bought it and took it home with him afterwards. He also did a cowboy movie soon after LotR called Hidalgo. You should check it out. 7:34 - Denethor is the biggest character assassination in the movies. For some reason, Peter Jackson didn't want anyone to have any sympathy for Denethor in the end, so he got rid of all of his redeeming qualities and left out the explanation for his bad ones. 9:25 - Here's one of the other big character assassinations. In the book, Faramir _passes_ the Ring's test and allows Frodo and his party to go, but Peter Jackson wanted one more big fight before the end of this movie, so instead he steals Faramir's big character moment to make him wishy-washy. 16:44 - Legolas was the only elf at Helm's Deep. 21:37 - Actually, the Ents DID decide to go to war with Isengard in the story. Jackson just wanted to give Merry and Pippin a stronger moment by having them 'convince' Treebeard to see the destruction for himself. 21:46 - And not just from the Ent Draught. 27:37 - My favorite part of the Battle of Isengard is when the flood waters are surging through Isengard and you can see Beechbone (Name from the novel. He's not named in the movie.) running _into_ the flood and dousing his burning head in the waves. 28:53 - Those 'trees' weren't there yesterday. That 'forest' is an army of hurons, actual walking trees that were sent by the Ents to destroy Isengard's army after they took the tower. Not a single orc that entered those trees walked out the other side. 29:31 - This scene SHOULD be setting up something real big down the line (and it does still set up the beginning of the next movie), but the REAL significance of the presence of South Farthing pipeweed being here is lost due to a certain story element Peter Jackson left out of the movies. 30:57 - A large chunk of Frodo's story from The Two Towers actually ends up in The Return of the King due to pacing.
Denethor has always favoured Boromir for three particular reasons: 1) Boromir is the warrior whereas Faramir has always been more of a diplomat. 2) Denethor's wife fell sick and died shortly after Faramir was born, because of course that's Faramir's fault. 3) And most importantly, Faramir has always spent a long time listening to, and taking advice from, Gandalf. And Denethor... DESPISES... Gandalf.
Fun fact: the elfs show up in Helm's Deep because of a bad idea. The original idea was to put Arwen fighting in Helm's Deep, you can still see her in some scenes in the movie
You would think hearing a Dwarf shout out the number of how many of your fellow Uruk-hai he killed that would demoralize them but know they just kept marching forward, truly Saruman bred the perfect warriors.
The really smart thing they did in the Helm's Deep battle was cutting away to the people in the caves. To show the audience who, what, and why the battle was necessary. Also this took weeks of night shoots. So much so that Viggo's skin was many shades lighter. When also broke part of his front tooth when filming. In the same year, we also saw Star Wars: Atrack of the Clones which chose to tell and not show any of that.
I remember back in the PS2 Era, I had The game and that was easily the hardest level in the entire game cause you had to defend certain points while getting the body count. Helms Deep also got made into a awesome Survival Map in Left 4 Dead.
Fun fact, originally the battle at Helm's Deep involved arwen showing up, but all of her scenes were either cut or altered to remove her. But if you look closely in the background of some shots you can see her running around
You dont' even know the crushing nature of Arwen's choice lol. Not only is she choosing a temporary life with Aragorn, she's choosing the mortal afterlife too. Elrond will get to live forever with the elves, while Arwen goes to wherever mortals go in Tolkien's universe. They will NEVER be reunited.
Though there is already a ton of Theoden defenders here in chat, just going to add that Helm's Deep's weakness wouldn't have felt like a weakness to anyone involved. Thick, wrought-iron bars under a colossal stone wall would be impossible to breach in any realistic measure of time. Waaay faster to break done the doors or toss up ladders. Saruman had just invented gunpowder and its existence was basically unknown. Even Wormtongue nearly blew himself and Saruman up because he didn't know what it could do. I think Theoden not planning for that is pretty justified.
Theoden had his reasons. Helm's Deep had always protected his people in times of need, and before this battle they never knew about gunpowder, and couldn't imagine there were 10,000 Uruk-hai marching toward them
To be fair for Theoden, he thought the Orcs would never breach because Massive Bombs weren't a thing until Saruman made them
He also expected to lose, he didn't want to panic his men and civilians, you'll notice he loudly boasts about outlasting them and stuff to sound inspirational, but he knows the armies of evil are coming for his people not crops or villages as Aragorn said, hence the following from Theoden (in a quieter tone) "my men's moral hangs by a thread" and the follow up about being alone and nobody coming to help.
He fully expected him and his kingdom to fall.
@@cheesysealAnon also, to be fair. His actions were completely understandable and in fact probably the best scenario. They would have completely been killed off if they stayed in Edoras. Plus he wasn't expecting super orcs. Just thank God there are no goblets there that were able to climb the walls like in moria
@@The..Boulder he had a better chance to stand within a stone stronghold with only one way in rather than surrounded in an open field capital with wooden walls
@cheesysealAnon that's what I said...
@@The..Boulder yeah didn't mean it like I'll delete it if you want
Why does everybody hate on Theoden, poor fella wakes up from an evil wizards curse and finds out his only son is dead, his nephew is banished with most of his warriors and there's an army of 10,000 super orcs coming.
He moves his people from the frigging wooden walled city to an actual fortress and then stays to defend them. All the while he's got people questioning his motives like why not ask Gondor for help, the same Gondor that's currently being shat on by Mordor and couldn't send any help even if they wanted to.
@@sospokemika1197 That is Denethor, not Theoden.
they just dont get that Theoden is hurting and part of him just wants to end his life in glory, he doesnt mean to be bitter, but he's rightfully angry.
By all normal logic, Theoden is doing his best, even in the face of his misery.
The audience just has OOC knowledge.
Honestly my biggest critcism is that he has the best calvary on the middle earth and decided to bet on a siege.
Like you guys are the horse masters, your whole land its plains, just keep harrasing the fuckers until they all die
@@johnj.spurgin7037 Gandalf had no right to criticize both Theoden and Denethor.
They are simple men that are ruling nations as best they can, facing legions of bloodthirsty creatures that only kill and pillage, whilst seeing their families being taken away from them.
Gandalf has been around even before the world came to be, has lots of powers, was taught by the wisest beings, and can never die for good.
Theoden deserve empathy. His son was recently killed, his nephew was banished by his traitorous advisor, all while cursed by Saruman.
He may act stubbornly, but Theoden is trying to act bravely for his people while still grieving his son.
He also expects to lose, but he doesn't want to panic people by explaining the situation properly, thats why he loudly boasts about outlasting the army or Saruman.
He thought he and his men would die there, that's why he said "if we are to end, I would make us have such an end, that we'll be worthy of remembrance", he was prepared to go out fighting
Theoden is rejecting Gandalf & Aragorn's advice for a very good reason:
For who-knows-how-long, he has been manipulated by a wizard and advisor he trusted until he lost his very self. Now, suddenly, he is being offered advice from a wizard and a trustworthy advisor.
It would be weirder if he *didn't* reject them...
Nope, it's jsut another poor change PJ did to create artificial drama. Book Theoden wasn't some insecure defeatist, going to Helms Deep was gandalf's idea - and riding out to fight Saruman was Theoden's - so he actually did listen to advice, because he managed his pride as king with wisdom and humility.
As much as I enjoy the movies, people need to stop defending PJ's poor descisions in changing Tolkien's narrative and rewriting his characters...
You do realize about half the changes PJ made are changes to the narrative TOLKIEN ACTUALLY SUGGESTED BE MADE in order to streamline and condense his book's narrative and cast enough to be successfully made into a film while generally keeping the narrative and themes as preserved as possible, right? What characters can and should be omitted (for instance he was adamant that Bombadil be cut because while he and the Barrow Wight incident were great for worldbuilding in the novel, in a film he felt the detour there would grind the pacing to a halt. Just as example) , what scenes were absolutely critical to include, (he suggested focusing on Helm's Deep over the Siege of Isengard and even omitting the Siege outright if both could not be shown as Helm's Deep was more important overall), for instance what could be changed and moved around, and what characters with similar or redundant roles could just be combined together to reduce bloat
Tolkien actually wrote a 'here make these changes for film' instruction set for LOTR, which PJ apparently read AND FOLLOWED.
Which is why, despite the changes, the LOTR films STILL FEEL LIKE LOTR and still feels like HIS work: because it actually WAS.
Sadly, since Tolkien never considered The Hobbit might be considered for the big screen he never wrote any such instructions for it, which is largely, I feel, why that series of movies went awry on a level LOTR didn't.
@@The_Real_Mr_Al
And people like you need to stop demonising all the tiny little things in the movies. Like, is it wrong for Theoden to have flaws?
@@The_Real_Mr_Alinsecure??? Lol you can't even properly explain this , when clearly in the movie he wasn't like that at all , the poor guy literally woke up from a nightmare and learned his son is dead and war is happening soon . The most logical plan was defending, and oooh wait , didn't they survive ?? You're just another pathetic viewer here who has no idea how a story should be written, sit the F down and never open your mouth in this comment section kid.
The Story of the entwives is actually pretty sad, the ents and entwives lived apart, since the ents liked sheperding their forests but the entwives like to be out in open fields and meadows tending to their gardens. And despite both being very attached to the plantlife they took care of the ents loved the entwives so much they occasionally set out on pilgrimages to the entwives' gardens just to see them again.
Until one day they came to the meadows, and found them barren and scorched (presumably by Morgoth/Sauron's forces), with no entwives anywhere. The ents have been searching for them ever since but it's been so long they can now no longer recall what they even looked like.
My personal Theory is that the Entwives are in or near The Shire, Given their love for cultivated plants just like the hobbits. Additionally, in one of the first chapters of Fellowship, Sam mentions another hobbit who saw something "As big as an Elm tree, and Walking!" The other hobbits dismiss it out of hand, but it's just enough for me.
sauron in his retreat from the west during the second age after the fall of angmar they burned the southern greenwood so the men and elves couldnt encroach in secret on mordor, on the map you see today its called the brown lands the entwives lived in greenwood and the ents lived in fangorn they met in the gap south of Galadriels realm
@@arekschneyer3802This is my headcanon, too!
@@canadianbakin1304 Angmar didn't exist in the Second Age, it was founded in the Third Age by the Witch-king while Sauron was still in hiding at Dol Guldur. Sauron burned the Entwives' gardens as a scorched earth tactic to hinder the advance of the Last Alliance.
In Middle Earth : Shadow of War there's the Spirit of Carnan, it's possible she is a surviving entwife, or she was one and was changed after the rest were destroyed.
I know in the books the elves dont actually come to help.
But those elves that came in the movie have got to be the greatest group of badasses ever.
Imagine what the pitch to them was:
"Hey everyone, we can go to the undying lands and live forever, or we can march across the continent to what is definitely certain death just to kick ass one last time and do what is right... Now who's comin?"
True badasses right there
My only issue is that no one mentions them after. Feels weird.
At least they'll be reincarnated and go there in the next life.
The thing that bothers me is the logistics of it all, because how the fuck did they get there before the Uruk-Hai and without coming across them? When did they depart from Lorien?
The last Feanorheads in the Middle-earth
@@paffles6696 "Okay, we could sail all the way to the Undying Lands... *OR* we could go out in a blaze of glory and save ourselves the trip."
While Theoden learns to be hopeful and trust in Aragorn, Aragorn is also learning what it means to be a king from Theoden.
I mean, Aragorn is like twenty years his senior. I don't think he needs to learn from him.
@WJS774 he's never been a king nor did he want to be though. And he does learn from him. The "And I shall die as one of them" and "thats a good sword" comes from being influenced by Theoden and his desire to lead and protect his people above all to the best of their ability.
@WJS774
Actually Theoden and the people of Rohan give Aragon something quite big. They start to take away his distrust of ‘men’ and the folly of the old kings.
At the beginning Aragon hates the idea of being king one day as to him it was the kings of men who fell to the influences of desire, power and glory. That men are to weak willed and corrupt to ever hold power over Middle Earth.
However, Thoeden gives him pause and in many ways example and hope about the kings of men. A reviewing of the kings of men now to the story’s of old and past.
Theoden never fellow to greed, power or corruption, he fell under dark influence, corrupt by the will of Saruman - a godly wizard who has actually fallen to the corruption of Mordor.
And on being reworken, instead of riding out to seek glory against the enemy his first priority is to seek refuge and safety for his people first.
His distrust of allies comes quite bitterly from his trust in Saruman who has turned him into a puppet. And now being told to ask for Gondor’s aide, a place that has not come to their aide even as raiders, orcs and bandits attack its people? He is disillusioned but as like his influence and actions help to inspire Aragon, so does the Elves coming to his aid go onto influence his later decisions.
And not only does Theoden influence Aragon so does the people or Rohan in their defence of Helm’s Deep.
The people of Man are weak, unable to stand up to the darkness before them, too cowardly to be heroes.
But as the people of Rohan show, not only do they fight until the very end against the hordes of Isengard, the find victory.
Even when they could break and run, they hold to the end defending the Keep and their king.
And this is why Aragon gets so annoyed and both Legolas and Theoden.
Because Legolas questions the people, Aragon takes it as a statement against the people of man. He’s essentially having an Elf tell him that the people of man are again weak and unable to do their duty and save their people.
And when he see Theoden broken, he feels it being reinforced, the idea that this inspiration of a king can be broken, the idea that Theoden could once again fall into the folly of the same kings he dares dread angers him as he knows that is not said man. He is grieving for both his son and people, and after so long has finally began to break and show it properly. But, Aragon knows now that it falls onto a king and leader not to let despair and grief overtake one, but a need to stand strong even in the face of the enemy and so much on one’s shoulders.
And that’s what he does for Theoden, he reinvigorates said man and puts him back on track.
And as we see it influences him greatly and will come in great boon later.
@@reecedignan8365 That, _all_ of that is artifice of the films only.
"Rise out with me. *Ride out and meet them!* "
Fun fact: in the books, the Council of Elrond was not planned by anyone in attendance. Everyone who was there had gone to Elrond for different reasons. Boromir was there because Faramir had been sent dreams by literal God telling him to go to Rivendell, but their father wouldn’t listen. Eventually, Boromir told Denethor that he had the same dream and he sent Boromir instead of Faramir.
Also, when Faramir initially saw the One Ring his response boiled down to “holy shit, that’s the evil ring, get the fuck out of here, go, destroy that shit before it tempts my men.”
To be clear, denethor knew boromir was lying, it just got him to take it seriously.
I think I prefer how the movie worked it. Instead of relying on mystic "a dream said so" logic, it makes sense that a council would be called so that everybody can figure out what to do.
As for Faramir, it's mucu more dramatic for him to be initially tempted just like everyone else (especially his brother) is. Only for him to reject it in the end and show strength.
The Last March of the Ents is even more hype in the books. They deliberate and choose to go to war and start marching off singing about how they are going to tear apart Isengard so loudly the earth shakes.
Merry and Pippin think the song is an exaggeration, until they see what the ents do. They literally rip apart stone and iron with their hands and throw chunks of the walls hundreds of feet in the air. And that's before Saruman tries lighting them on fire and they get mad.
It's such an awesome bit I actually felt a bit disappointed the first time I watched the movie. After all that fuckery Saruman pulled, seeing the trees he underestimated absolutely lay waste to his white buttocks was priceless.
The absolute disrespect to Theoden is almost unbearable. The man suffered through doubt and possession, lost his son without being able to say good bye or properly mourn him. Woke up to basically try to forestall the destruction of his people in an almost unwinnable fight.
Please show some respect to one of the greatest side characters in the trilogy
While Theodan is a great character, and deserves the proper respect, that retrospect only comes from future rewatches. You only get a full measure of his character in RotK, and then looking back you can see his tragic arc.
On first time viewing, Theodan in Two Towers appears as Alicia puts it, "a bitch"
@@Scapemaster00
If you have no understanding of the basic idea of "Undefeated stone fortress is better than wooden walls on a hill," then sure, I guess. Which seems to be the case here.
@@knightmare3197 not sure what specifically you're trying to call out there. I'm merely referring to how in a first time viewers eyes can appear cowardly or weak.
@@Scapemaster00
But that still doesn’t make sense. Because I’ve seen other reaction videos on the LOTR and most of them that talk about Theoden in Two Towers actually sympathise with him.
Even still, it’s not that hard to understand that he’s not being hubris or stupid, but he’s just trying to put some smidge of hope for his people so that they don’t run off and flee, the “better to die fighting as a brave hero than run away like a coward” mentality.
She'll be cheering for him by the time we get to Minas Tirith. (I hope!)
Let’s take a look at theoden he’s been through a lot
-has been under a mind control spell for a hot minute
-lost his son
-his nephew is banished
-his advisor is a traitor
-has to deal with an impending orc army
-has to keep up a facade that’s fading for his soldiers and people
Bro finally got free and had to deal with so much
Retreating to Helms Deep is actually the best thing he could hace done since it would be suicide to face such a big army on an open field. He just tries to protect his people.
Last I checked, Gimli was excited about the Horn at Helm’s Deep because it was of Dwarvish design. The sound it made would ricochet off the walls surrounding the Deep, amplifying it, and stunning the forces of any intruding armies but leaving defending ones unscathed. That’s why the Uruk-Hai are bumbling around while the horn is blasting.
23:37 When my toddler starts speaking and I don’t understand it because she’s still learning to speak I sometimes quote Treebeard and say “It doesn’t make much sense to me, but then again, you are very small.”
We better get an apology at the start of the next one for Theoden. The absolute disrespect and slander for this man. Meanwhile feeling sorry for Smeagol, cant wait for the 180 on both these characters next movie.
As she has said in the many L takes she's had "I ain't apologizing"
4:00 No it's literal immortality. Galadriel has been knocking around since the First Age. Even if their bodies are destroyed, an Elf's spirit is bound to Arda and lingers in Valinor, much like Gandalf's does, until the Valar replace his lost body. Only grief can truly destroy their souls.
Galadriel is older than the literal sun and moon of Middle-Earth, as she was around in the times of the Two Trees of Valinor.
Rohan orders teens to fight, but Saruman sent 10,000 uruk-hais that not even a year old to war.
So you're calling Uruk-Hai Man-Babies. Lol 🤣
and Rohan is doing it to defend, not attack.
My lore obsessed side wants to correct this but my funny side aproves fully 😂
Add child soldiers to the list of war crimes
The movies are greatly shortened in length and cover much less than the books do. Saruman had been building an army of Man and Orcs for 70-ish years. So we can expect the army to be older than a year.
Death is a mystery to the Elves. In Tolkien's world, the elves are tied to the world. They're immortal. Even if they are killed their souls end up in the West and they are given new bodies there (one or two have even returned to Middle Earth). God gave men the Gift of Death. When men die, though their souls spend a brief time in the West, they join God Beyond the world because He has some other plan for them beyond the knowledge of the elves.
So, Elrond's daughter binding herself to the mortal life of man means they won't even be together in the West. Her spirit will follow Aragorn's Beyond the world.
Its interesting that Elrond is actually a half-elf himself (though both his parents were half-elfs, but also legendary heroes too), It's Elrond's family line that got the exclusive gift to choose their mortality. His parents chose immortality but sort of werent allowed to come back to Middle Earth (though his father preferred humanity), and Elrond's brother also chose mortality and died. But one of his descendants through many many generations in Aragorn. So I can see how Elrond could be bitter about mortality, since he's separated from his parents and his brother died. (additionally his wife was tortured by orcs and left to the western paradise too)
Theoden slander is crazy!
never forget that legolas fumbled a 19-2 lead at helm's deep
True that he fumbled the 19/2 lead, but he carried the squad in a matter of speaking later on.
Well he had the early advantage because he could shoot the orcs before they topped the walls, but he's not as strong a fighter up close as Gimli.
Legolas shoots down the third of the huge ladders the Uruks try to lever up to the actual keep of Helms Deep. He got way more than he took credit for.
@@Pink.andahalf That still only counts as one. (Admittedly he spent a lot of the battle bailing Aragorn and Gimli out of the perilous situations they got themselves in. Like pulling them both up a castle wall.)
In D&D terms, Legolas is the build with like a +4to hit and which does 1d6 damage (not really a lot) but he's put his skills into perception and acrobatics to the point where he can't roll below a 15 for those so he keeps describing his attacks in flamboyant ways knowing the GM will give him a damage boost if he passes the easy skill check but otherwise can't kill much. Gimli on the other hand has enough health that the NPCs need to drag him away from the fight for it to have stakes, a +6 to hit and a big chopping axe which does 1d10 damage so he just spends every turn asking where the nearest enemy is, moving up to them and saying "I hit them with my axe." at which point the enemy dies and he moves on. (Aragorn also has big numbers but the GM has been promising him his magic item for a while now and he's really into the RP of commanding the troops and inspiring the NPCs so he doesn't attack as much as use his action to help various NPC.)
It's close quarters. Dwarves - and especially Gimli - are walking tanks. Gimli the uruk-blender!
29:50 just to clarify Tolkien meant it as pipe tabacco, it only really got the 420 parallel from the movies.
It's a little bit of fun.
He could get away with it, his tweaks to Theoden, Faramir and Helm's Deep are good.
So, some more book vs movie details, which I hope aren't annoying:
Faramir and Denethor were significantly changed. For starters, Faramir refuses the Ring instantly. He's much more of...lacking a better word, a nerd. Denethor does favor Boromir, because Boromir is more of a warrior and a leader in a time of war.
Denethor is also...not kinder, but the movie casts him in a bad light. He's a genuine badass who literally sleeps in his armor to keep himself ready at all times, and one of the strongest wills in the world. It's just he's been at war with Mordor for a very long time and is losing hope. Every day more people die, things get worse, Sauron gets stronger. Keep stretching the strongest steel and eventually it will snap.
Denethor is so underrated, like you said, he has one of the strongest wills.
He was DIRECTLY battling Sauron in a contest of wills for 40 YEARS!
And not once did Sauron corrupt him.
That alone easily puts Denethor II in the top 15 humans of middle earth.
PS: Let us not forget that Denethor is a descendant of Fingolfin
Let's not forget him using the seeing stone and getting shown just how massive Mordors army is
What makes Helms Deep such a great war scene, especially given today's standard of film making, is the lighting. Yes it takes place during the dark, but Jackson was so smart making the whole scene visible by adding artificial lighting so the audience can see what is happening. Don't know why film makers have such a hard to process this idea in the modern media world.
"Where's the light coming from?"
"Same place as the music."
The lighting for the whole trilogy is fantastic, and it's great that Alicia has commented on it herself to give it attention.
I will NEVER fail to laugh at Saruman stopping Wormtongue getting any closer with the candle to the boom sand.
Like, he's not even angry, he knows dam well Wormtongue has no idea what it is or what he is LITERALLY inches from causing. It's like a dad stopping a toddler from sticking their hand on the stove burner.
Just, a completely normal realistic 'Don'tdothat.' You can almost envision Saruman patiently explaining what that stuff is and the danger of introducing it to a flame just after the scene cut while wormtongue is just going 'Oh, that is awesome! And I almost did that HERE. Holy crap!'
You keep my good King Theoden’s name…OUT YO MOUTH! 😤
Her sentiment will change in the third movie.
@@Tayvin4042
I hope they do! She really misunderstood Theoden as a character in this movie. I guess we’re still salty due to the grieving over the passing of Bernard Hill but still Alicia really disrespected Theoden. Calling him a “shitty ass king” really made boil up inside.
@@ulfberht4431 I don't think she misunderstood him actually. Theoden is meant to be shown at his lowest and weakest point, being defeatist at worst, only to grow bolder and wiser in the defense of his people, culminating in his heroic charge at the end of the Helm's Deep battle and continuing on to his actions in RotK. His arc is on him going from one of Rohan's weakest kings, to one of its greatest that will be forever remembered. I'm sure Alicia will love him by the time we get to Pellenor.
"Why are they always walking places?"
The original Lord of the Rings books are basically written as a travelogue, with intricate descriptions of every location they go through and every important thing they see. Tolkien was most interested in creating the world, establishing its cultures, and building its history. Stuff like action and characterization, meanwhile, often tend to take a backseat, relatively speaking.
This creates some interesting disparities between the books and the films. For example, establishing shots that might take no more than ten seconds in the film could take up half a dozen pages, while the big momentous battles that take up half an hour of screentime might be done in a page or two. If you ever have the chance, it's worth reading just to make the comparison.
Watsonian reason: Flat parts of Middle-Earth like Gondor and Rohan are full of people. And Gandalf and the 3 avengers do ride horses there.. Frodo and Sam especially are taking the long way 'round Mordor.
Honestly, people give Theoden too much grief in the Helm's Deep preparation sequences. He's right, what is he supposed to do? "Call for help!" My brother in Christ, Aragorn says that the uruk hai will arrive by nightfall. There is literally no way any riders deployed then will get anywhere and then for anyone else to have time to muster forces and march to Theoden's aid *and* arrive before Saruman's army arrives. Yes, Eomer arrives the next morning--and in the books, it's Erkenbrand(sp?)--but that's because Gandalf rode out to get help days prior. Sending men out to gather more help won't actually make any difference.
So Theoden is doing his absolute best with the meager forces he has on hand, and our heroes are following him around going "Hey man, this isn't going to be good enough. You're fucked. You're not doing enough. You're wrong." etc etc.
Honestly, rare L for Aragorn and the boys.
Also consider the location. To draw off a real engagement, 300 Spartans held off an enemy larger by orders of magnitude by forcing them to engage in a narrow pass to neutralize their numbers advantage. Helms Deep let's the defenders focus on (effectively) one direction, from the superior position of the wall top, without threat of being flanked and annihilated.
It took the Uruks BLOWING UP THE WALL to catastrophically compromise the defense. Without that, the fortress could've held for a fair time longer.
Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the red dawn. Forth, Eorlingas
DEATH
Let us make such an end, as will be worth a song.
alicia, in regards to the entwives, the problem is the area that they inhabited is now the marshes of the deaththey didn't "leave" most of them were genocided by sauron when he burned the brown lands
Sam’s speech in this movie is the highlight of the story for me, and a comfort in difficult times.
No wonder Boromir was in such a hurry to get back to Gondor: not only was he pulled from the front lines, not only did his jerk father give him an underhanded mission to betray his friends, on top of all this, Boromir’s little brother was serving at the front lines this whole time. And Boromir was being exposed to the One Ring. It’s a wonder he lasted as long as he did.
The sad thing is that Faramir was originally supposed to be the one to go to Rivendale in the book. And the Faramir in the book is way more honorable than the one portrayed in the movies. He would not have fallen into temptation to the ring and he would not have brought it back to Gondor or try to take it from Frodo. The only reason why Boromir ended up going was because he didn't want his little brother to make such a treacherous trip to Rivendale
I agree. Plus I think your autocorrect just crapped itself over Boromir's name. 😊😀
I wish they kept Boramir's line from the book where he cries out Faramir's name when engaging the Uruks in the forest.
@@Believer1980 it did, but I corrected it. Thankyou
@@The..Boulder Though Boromir forcing Frodo to separate from the rest ultimately proved to be for the best, the ring would have corrupted them all and the Fellowship already wasn't in agreement on what direction to go after the Anduin River. Boromir forcing Frodo's hand ultimately kept the ring away from both Gondor and Rohan/Isengard, whilst Faramir not succumbing in the same way may have aultimately ended in either them travelling to either location with the ring or even in a slower and more fatal corruption of the party.
Faramir may have only been given the visions first so that Boromir would take them seriously and be in the right place at the right time to do the wrong thing.
Helms Deep is basically a nuclear bunker that has stood for millennia. Nobody really could predict that Sarumon, basically an ANGEL, would create a bunker buster.
Fun fact: the extras playing the Uruk-hai were a bit miserable being drenched in water and having to do many reshoots. To keep their spirits up, many performed the haka (a Maori chant native in New Zealand) to motivate themselves. Even the battle chants they do in the movie are similar to a haka war cry.
21:03 That person throwing the spear is Peter Jackson, the director of the LOTR and Hobbit movies. He has a cameo in every movie.
IIRC In the first movie, he's just a commoner bumping into the hobbits as they enter Bree. Won't spoil the third one but it's a bit more obvious than the first two which are "blink and you'll miss it" cameos.
The trees at the end of the movie killing off the rest of the Uruk-hai were the ones Pippin saw moving in the distance. Notice how they weren’t there in front of Helm’s Deep earlier before the attack. Although they’re not Ents, they are sentient and use their roots to travel. Those suckers walked all the way to Helm’s Deep just to cut off the Uruk-hai and finish them off. That’s why Eomer (Karl Urban’s character; the blonde girl’s brother) told everyone to stay away from the forest. He noticed those trees came out of nowhere and knew they were dangerous.
Yeah, huorns a friggin scary
The thing with Elrond and Arwen is, Elrond is called "Elrond Half-Elven," because his parents were a human and an elf, and has a twin brother, and he and his brother faced a similar choice. It wasn't exactly over love, but they could have either been immortal elves or mortal humans. Elrond chose immortality, and his twin brother chose mortality. So he watched as his brother aged and died (even if it was as a king among humans), and knows exactly what it is Arwen faces, having to watch someone they love grow old and die while staying ageless themselves.
There's also a metaphysical thing involved, as elves and humans have different afterlives. Elves go to The West where their souls and bodies are reunited and they get to live forever among the gods, and humans... go somewhere else the Elves don't know. So Elrond is also trying to convince Arwen to have the same afterlife with him, instead of whatever afterlife the humans get.
The sad part is, the books include "Appendices" that are made up of a lot of information that didn't fit in the actual story (about the ring and how to deal with it), and most of the romance between Aragorn and Arwen--including what happens to Arwen in the end--is in the Appendices.
The Elves are bound to the fate of Arda (the world), and Men are not. The ability to truly die and leave the hurts of the World is described as Iluvatar's (God's) gift to Men. But, in the history of Middle-Earth, many Men came to fear death because they did not what was on the other side of it. That fear caused some significant catastrophes in Middle-Earth history, and was part of the reason the Men who became the Nazgul accepted the Nine Rings.
Actually elves can be reborn like Glorfindel, he died fighting a Balrog but did come back
@@nero1798 They are reborn in their flesh, but Glorfindel was a special exception. If an elf dies and/or goes to the West, they are not permitted to return.
Book note, in the books it is Gandalf who says retreat to helms deep and boromir's dad, Denethor, has been using a palantir to predict where the armies of mordor are moving, basically he has been destroying his own mind to give the armies of gondor a better chance
I keep forgetting Denethor's deliberate taking of psychic damage was for the sake of recon. Makes his insanity more of a tragedy when the films depict him as a massive A-hole
I mean he is, but it begs the question of how much of that was from prolonged palantir use.
@@johnj.spurgin7037 Yeah, its that and then loosing a son to add to it, crippling for any father let alone one who is using a palantir.
No, in the book they ride out to confront Saruman, and only retreat to Helm's Deep after they realise just how big his army is. In the film they have Theoden retreating to Helm's Deep when as far as they know, the biggest threat is rag-tag gangs of brigands?? Aragorn only tells him about the army _after_ they are already there.
@@johnj.spurgin7037 Yeah, it's really hard for the movie to show just how long Denethor, Faramir, and Boromir have been giving 110% fighting the good fight against Mordor, and it's a real shame.
21:00
Alicia give the old man a break will you! You really are disrespecting Theoden as a character. The man has suffered a lot with him being mind controlled, made to look withered before being revived, his son died, he had to abandon his city and despite the odds he’s trying his best to inspire hope to his people. And sure he did underestimate the power of the orcs but that’s no excuse to call him a “shitty ass king”. Come on! I really hope you regret calling him names by the third movie.
23:16 one of my favorite Easter eggs: if you listen very closely as the ladder falls, you’ll hear one of the Uruk-hai yell “COWABUNGA!” I hope more people will be able to hear it now, too.
Theoden wasnt holding grudge there. He was saying that we asked for help a lot of times, they never came then, why do you think they would come now? Gandalf could see that if they holed up here in the castle enemy would just gather strength and eventually overpower them, but Theoden knew that best chance of his people surviving is from advantage of the castle. On open field it would've been a massacre
Sam's speech at the end of this movie is one of the most genuinely moving things I've ever heard.
It really rings true that Sam is the hero of the trilogy. Tolkien's own words.
21:30 definitely one of the best adapted scenes from the book. I'll always remember reading Tolkein's writing " And lo, Legolas of the Woodland Realm, fleet of foot and swift of bow, did leap upon the fallen shield of the Uruk-hai. Riding upon it; he flew down the stairs, and lo his bow sang as the feathered shafts did find their marks, and it was honestly so cool man you had to see it."
1: Your prose would make Tolkien proud.
2:Thanks for the laugh, I needed this.
The Battle of Helms Deep is STILL used as a comparison for any massive battle scene. I HOPE that you’ll love Return of the King even more!
With Elrond's conversation with Arwen, there is a bit a of a play on words for those familiar with the lore. Aragorn's name as a child while growing up in the House of Elrond was "Estel", Sindarin Elvish for "hope".
4:26 That. That sentiment is PEAK. I have never heard anyone say that in a reaction, genuinely. They always say how manipulative it is and that’s it. I am SO thankful someone finally actually put it out there. Thank you.
Crazy how she sees that, but gives so little charity to Theoden after waking up from magic-induced senality to find out his home is being invaded and his son died
21:30 Seeing Legolas shooting out his arrows while riding on a Uruk-kai's shield was smooth af. 29:42 Also, Merry and Pippin found Saruman's weed lol.
In the book , Saruman having pipeweed from the Shire hinted that Saruman had his claws into the Shire too.
This was never explored by Jackson, as I'm guessing thought added stuff to the film that was not needed. Hence why Sam's gift from The Lady Galadriel was changed from the earth and seed, to the rope.
One thing to keep in mind about Denethor, the dad of Boromir and Faramir, that isnt brought up in the movies: He's been using a Palantir, a crystal ball like Saruman uses, to know what the Enemy is doing so he can defend his people better. Unfortunately Sauron has also been using it to basically haunt Denethor and feed him fake information to convince him that everything is gonna be lost no matter what. He's basically mentally ill.
His spy camera's been hacked.
Every time the Last March of the Ents theme starts playing, I tear up.
You gotta remember that in the lore the Battle of Helm's Deep was the first time in Middle-Earth's history that saw the use of gunpowder on that scale, and the power of the wizards are much much subtler in the books than in the movies as well. So something being capable of doing that to those walls would be inconceivable to King Theoden.
Not many people, especially normies, would remember (because they don’t know about it) nor would they have the time to read about the lore prior to the movies.
@ulfberht4431 Yeah, fair.
In hindsight I'm not sure why I started my comment with "You gotta remember that..." because I know she hasn't read the books.
This movie has such a somber tone to it. Really feels like a dark war movie. First one was so whimsical and magical and wonderous. This one tones it way down, with muted colors, less emphasis on magical and fantastic, and more on gritty and sad war drama. Can't wait for the reaction to the third one. Best have tissues ready for it. I just recently watched it in the cinema and I was ugly crying at so many moments. It was wonderful.
Alicia will eat her words about theoden in Return of the king so bad xD
I sure hope she does! Her take on Theoden’s character was so poor and disrespectful. Which is ironic since she clearly does understand character motivations and empathy, yet she failed to understand why Theoden was acting the way he was before the Battle of Helm’s Deep and instead made just really cringy jokes about how “stupid” he was.
The ending is so perfect, Saruman in his overconfidence emptied all of Isengard to siege Rohan leaving very few guards beyond his basic workforce to repel the Ents. At the end he got his just desserts for defiling both nature and allying with Sauron.
The lyrics of "Gollum's Song" over the ending:
"So in the end
I will be what I will be
No loyal friend
Was ever there for me
These tears you cry
Have come too late
Take back the lies
The hurt, the blame!
And you will weep
When you face the end alone
You are lost!
You can never go home"
19:55
Ah yes. Gimli, the original spawn camper.
Also,
HOPE
What I love about these films is it showcases Tolkiens quirks on how they linger on many symbolic things. He was a notorious walking partner as he would stop and observe everything. It shows such HOPE and despair together. It is a beautiful masterpiece
If it makes you feel better as a member of their race, the elves don't come to Helm's Deep in the book, so Haldir and all them live.
The Boromir flashback is an extended edition scene.
Haldir is still dead in the Battle of Lothlorien in our hearts
The best part of this movie. The battle of helm's deep and the Ent's assault on Saruman's tower make for great action scenes.
Also love the comedic events with the archer and the torch runner.
Its wonderful seeing how loved Theoden is, and how much Alicia is testing our love of her by, without the context of the next movie, shotting on him near relentlessly.
"We...we can win this. We can win the whole war."
This is part of why Two Tower is my favourite. After all that despair, the hopeless odds, you realize, "Yes, we CAN win."
Never, EVER give up!
3:43 Another factor to keep in mind here - Elrond's wife / Arwen's mother had to leave for the Undying lands across the sea over 200 years earlier due to pain from being captured and tortured by orcs. If Arwen remains in Middle Earth, the three of them will remain separated. Elrond will have to leave Arwen to reunite with his wife, and she would not see Arwen, at least not for many more years.
"Hope" Cannot wait for you to meet the She that Golumn mentions.
I wonder what the pitch of her scream will be?
I remember watching these films in the movie theater as a child. On the edge of my seat from beginning to end. The Dolby sound blaring around, making my tiny body actually vibrate. I could have felt the emotions even if I were covering my ears.
Watching these movies as a child on the big screen changed my brain chemistry forever. I had never experienced anything like it before, and I haven't since then.
HELMS DEEP was by far one of the BEST fights in this movie. That and the ENT WAR :D
My favorite part of the Ent battle was when the THICC Ent smashed the orcs together XD
3:25 Elrond already lost a brother that chose to be mortal, so he's even more resistant to losing Arwen too.
Also worth noting that they don't share an afterlife either, so it's Truly goodbye forever
"In the book": The Ents do take forever to decide to act, and have been debating taking action since before the Hobbits even arrived. But ultimately they do decide to join the war, they don't refuse. As usual though, minor characters are not allowed their own agency, and it has to be a main character who _tricks_ Treebeard into joining the war, making him look like a very poor "shepherd of the trees" if he hasn't noticed that Saruman has cut down half his forest.
I hope that you’ll watch some of the behind the scenes material of the movie. It has a quality of genuine humanity to it that’s very cozy to watch.
So if you're wondering how that elf army got there and where it came from the answer is: they didn't. They weren't there in the books because by the time word would have gotten to the elves the battle would have been over due to travel speed. And even if we try to explain it with Elrond having had a vision of foresight and sent the army out in advance so that they would reach the battle in time. Problem with that is that Elrond didn't have such an army to send. However, since Haldir is leading them we could assume the elves came from Lothlorien and that Elrond told Galadriel to send the army, which once again would have taken time they did not have, and they can't communicate telepathically over that far a distance like they do in the movie.
Hope
The scream is a stock sound effect known as the Wilhelm scream. Typically used when a character falls from a great height or explosion. The scream is named after Private Wilhelm, a character in The Charge at Feather River, a 1953 western in which the character gets shot in the thigh by an arrow. 😂
In Theoden's defense he did not know about gunpowder or its affect on siege walls. 😆
Peter Jackson had a contest for the animators doing the best orc deaths via Ent. The best ones making it into the film. Lol. 😂
I don't think that actually _was_ the Wilhelm scream, I think that it was an actor _imitating_ it. It sounds similar, but not quite right IMO.
"Peter Jackson's use of the Wilhelm scream adds a cinematic joy to 'The Lord of the Rings' although it was used over half a dozen times throughout the second two films of the trilogy. Perhaps it can be heard clearest during the Battle for Helm's Deep when an elf falls off the wall".
So yeah, it was not only used once but multiple times. Along with the stock sound of a deer in distress when an ENT was injured. A sound I have heard in many videos games and movies. Lol 🤣
Fun fact about this movie: During the filming of the Battle of Helm's Deep in Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, the production team used a full-weight battering ram instead of a lightweight prop. The actors portraying Uruk-hai were instructed to hit the fortress door with full force, aiming to create the most realistic shots possible. Despite their efforts, the door, which had been overbuilt by the art department, proved incredibly resilient. The stuntmen struggled to make any impact, highlighting the impressive construction quality of the set.
Only conservative people can make such legendary films, and this is an obvious fact!
*_Leave Theoden alone, will you?_*
*_He's a mourning king, that has to deal with an army specifically BIRTHED for war (Uruk-hai) and their weapons he's never dealt with before, got left hanging by Denethor multiple times, got his mind poisoned by Saruman and Grima for god knows how long, wakes up from his comatose trance to find all his fighters gone and his son dead, and now needs to make due with young boys and old men for soldiers in a world that to him feels like it has pretty much turned its back on him entirely, yet still chooses to stay and fight on his own._*
*_Don't call him a b*tch again._*
Thing about Elrond is that he has lived a life of loss and seperation from those he loved.
Being a half-elf himself along with his brother, they lost their parents durring the War of Wrath. His mother lost to the sea and turned into a bird, and his father now forever tasked to roam the stars.
Later both brothers were given the choice to be counted among the men or elves. Elrond chose to live as an eternal elf, but his brother chose the life of mortal men, their lives to be seperated by time. And the day would come when his brother would pass.
Further in his life, Elronds wife, Celebrían, would be attacked and tortured by orcs. Though she survived, her mental scars would never heal and she sailed off to the Undying Lands, never to return to Middle-Earth.
Elronds fear of leaving behind his daughter is understandably hard on Elrond.
And Elrond knows that even if Arwen stays, not only will time seperate her and Aragorn, but humans and elves are seperated even by death. When elves die, they reside in the Halls of Mandos (and may be given a chance to be re-embodied), but man do not and pass off into an unexplained afterlife.
19:10 That scream is the Wilhelm scream, and it is a tradition to put it at least once in every Hollywood movie, when possible, as an easter egg/ internal joke.
I'm glad you appreciated Elrond is coming from a very understandable place.
Elrond has had a really bad run of things. His dad left forever and is off flying in the sky as a star. His brother chose to be mortal and die as a mortal man. His beloved wife was captured and tortured by orcs and basically died of emotional trauma. He's held onto hope a long time through a lot of pain.
Also, Aragorn is descended from his brother. So they are extremely distant relatives. Also also, she's almost 3000 years old.
Wow, talk about a cradle robber
Unfortunatly movie Elrond is a bad case of character assassination, something PJ was especially guilty of. His defeatist bigotry doesn't exist in the book.
That whole shtick combined with Arwen someone being connected to the fate of the ring for no reason is just sadly PJ continously trying to create an inflated and artificial sense of drama instead of trusting Tolkien's writing. As people have pointed out, Tolkien's work is all about hope, PJ's adaption has those moments all flipped to be about despair instead.
Book Elrond's only "issue" was that he will only let Aragorn marry his daughter if he fulfills his destiny to become king and once he does has no objections. Similarly, book Aragorn never once doubts his right to rule or his destiny, and is even proud of his heritage, his "challenge" as a character is instead that he doesn't want to become - or be seen as - a conqueror and wants the people of Gondor to accept him of their own free will.
Same thing with Faramir, Theoden or the Ents. Faramir wasn't a douchebag giving in to daddy issues in the book, and the Ents weren't stupid, they all agreed they needed to do something about Isengard but were taking a long time debating the details and the surprise came when the younger ents just decided they should march on Isengard and break it down by force. They all knew the forest's edge was being burnt and cut down. And Theoden wasn't some insecure pissant and actually listened to advice. And Rohan wasn't as magically understaffed as the movie suggests, Eomer was only imprisoned and not banished by Grima, so he was there all along and Gandalf instead rode out to regroup the fractured army forces fighting across western Rohan under the regional lord in order to bring them to Helms Deep, which also wasn't empty but already had it's lord and regiment alert and standing by when the main characters arrived. Also, going to Helm's Deep was Gandalf's idea to save lives, where Theoden wanted to ride out in a noble yet suicidal charge to meet Isengard's forces in the field. You could go on and on about the bad and unnecessary changes PJ made.
Pacing - the one thing that can make an hour and a half movie feel like a slog, but a nearly four hour movie could make you want more.
Very, very astute assessment, Alicia.
can't wait to see the reaction for THAT scene in the third movie
Ooff
Now THAT will be a moment...
@@seregrian5675 hey man, i watch ROTK when it come out when i was a kid and i'm still got hype every time when that scene come up 😅
@@lorenzogoglee1320 Saw ROTK first-run back when I was forty-ish. Now I see all these reaction videos hit that moment, and it's heartwarming to watch
@@seregrian5675 agree. is so nice to see how well this movies aged and to watch new people enjoy them
One of my favorite quotes for the night fight of Helms Deep is when Sean Astin(Samwise) asked the cinematographer where the light for the scene was coming from and he said "Same place as the music"
Fun fact, the Orc chanting right before the battle started was recorded at a rugby game in New Zealand. Peter Jackson went out on the field at half time and got the whole crowd to do chant.
28:27 - 28:48 🥺🥹Samwise Gamgee's speech here about good in the world that's worth fighting for gives me hope, and its so fitting even now when all we can see is the worst in people during the wars that are going on over sea. That most of the "evil" we see going on come from people who don't have all the answers and are acting out of fear and anger for not knowing enough to do the right thing. But like Sam says, the darkness that hangs over us and clouds our judgment is a passing thing, and eventually, love, kindness, and peace win out. We all need someone like Sanwise the Brave.
17:450 The sounds of big amount of orcs in these movies were recorded in rugby stadiums in New Zealand.
Also a curiosity, most of the extras playing the orcs are in fact women.
When it comes to Elrond's position on Arwen and Aragorn's relationship, Elrond is known as Elrond Half-Elven, his mother was elven and his father was human. He even had a twin brother, when they came of age they were given a choice, live as man or elf. Elrond chose the immortality of an elven life, whereas his brother chose a mortal human life, starting the line of the Dúnedain kings. Elrond is intimately familiar with this extremely difficult choice.
Alicia, I really think you severely and unfairly misjudged Theoden when he was saying “oh we can handle them” despite the odds. He wasn’t saying it out of hubris or pride. Rather he was saying it to give a small smidge of hope for his people. As a King or Queen, while it is important to be smart and tactical, it’s also important to inspire hope even if the odds of winning is low.
Theoden probably knows that they won’t win this battle, but if he looked like a sad coward to his people and his soldiers, then that will only make things worse for him and his people. Even if they can’t win due to them being out numbered 3 to 1, at least give them the mental strength to last long enough and die as heroes.
I’m honestly a bit mad that you didn’t understand that and just joked about him ignoring the odds stacked against him. Kinda disrespectful.
The movies do Denethor a disservice. He was greatest ruler of his time. The reason why he was so fond of Boromir is because he resembled his mother. Faramir was too much like Denethor, so he took one look at him and saw not that he had inherited his good qualities, but he saw only his own flaws reflected back at him. And he knew at some level that he himself was falling so he expected Faramir to do the same. The fact that Faramir did not spend almost hundred years in mental combat with Sauron and thus was neither weary nor depressed did not occur to Denethor.
Ok so the story of Faramir and Boromir's father is fascinating and not quite fairly represented but since I do not want to spoil anything I will leave further info for the next videos when relevant.
Oh and who else does thing where the New Year starts with Theoden saying "So,i t begins".
And as usual for more lore and interesting bits feel free to ask.
2:10 - Vigo Mortensen loved his horse in the movie so much that he bought it and took it home with him afterwards. He also did a cowboy movie soon after LotR called Hidalgo. You should check it out.
7:34 - Denethor is the biggest character assassination in the movies. For some reason, Peter Jackson didn't want anyone to have any sympathy for Denethor in the end, so he got rid of all of his redeeming qualities and left out the explanation for his bad ones.
9:25 - Here's one of the other big character assassinations. In the book, Faramir _passes_ the Ring's test and allows Frodo and his party to go, but Peter Jackson wanted one more big fight before the end of this movie, so instead he steals Faramir's big character moment to make him wishy-washy.
16:44 - Legolas was the only elf at Helm's Deep.
21:37 - Actually, the Ents DID decide to go to war with Isengard in the story. Jackson just wanted to give Merry and Pippin a stronger moment by having them 'convince' Treebeard to see the destruction for himself.
21:46 - And not just from the Ent Draught.
27:37 - My favorite part of the Battle of Isengard is when the flood waters are surging through Isengard and you can see Beechbone (Name from the novel. He's not named in the movie.) running _into_ the flood and dousing his burning head in the waves.
28:53 - Those 'trees' weren't there yesterday. That 'forest' is an army of hurons, actual walking trees that were sent by the Ents to destroy Isengard's army after they took the tower. Not a single orc that entered those trees walked out the other side.
29:31 - This scene SHOULD be setting up something real big down the line (and it does still set up the beginning of the next movie), but the REAL significance of the presence of South Farthing pipeweed being here is lost due to a certain story element Peter Jackson left out of the movies.
30:57 - A large chunk of Frodo's story from The Two Towers actually ends up in The Return of the King due to pacing.
Random Question Alicia: What is your favorite color of dragon?
The reason I ask will (hopefully) become apparent in like....2-3 months, hopefully
I love alicias energy man the way she gets so hyped is infectious it gets me hyped
Denethor has always favoured Boromir for three particular reasons: 1) Boromir is the warrior whereas Faramir has always been more of a diplomat. 2) Denethor's wife fell sick and died shortly after Faramir was born, because of course that's Faramir's fault. 3) And most importantly, Faramir has always spent a long time listening to, and taking advice from, Gandalf. And Denethor... DESPISES... Gandalf.
Fun fact: the elfs show up in Helm's Deep because of a bad idea.
The original idea was to put Arwen fighting in Helm's Deep, you can still see her in some scenes in the movie
You would think hearing a Dwarf shout out the number of how many of your fellow Uruk-hai he killed that would demoralize them but know they just kept marching forward, truly Saruman bred the perfect warriors.
The really smart thing they did in the Helm's Deep battle was cutting away to the people in the caves. To show the audience who, what, and why the battle was necessary.
Also this took weeks of night shoots. So much so that Viggo's skin was many shades lighter. When also broke part of his front tooth when filming.
In the same year, we also saw Star Wars: Atrack of the Clones which chose to tell and not show any of that.
@Alicia this was a lovely reaction..... I envy you seeing all this for the first time :)
"and the gollum evil side is back...."
it never left, just waited in the background till his better half was at a low point.
I hope you like the return of the king as much as I did.
"We may very well march to our doom"
> Suffers zero casualties except one Ent getting kinda burned a little
I remember back in the PS2 Era, I had The game and that was easily the hardest level in the entire game cause you had to defend certain points while getting the body count. Helms Deep also got made into a awesome Survival Map in Left 4 Dead.
Fun fact, originally the battle at Helm's Deep involved arwen showing up, but all of her scenes were either cut or altered to remove her. But if you look closely in the background of some shots you can see her running around
You dont' even know the crushing nature of Arwen's choice lol. Not only is she choosing a temporary life with Aragorn, she's choosing the mortal afterlife too. Elrond will get to live forever with the elves, while Arwen goes to wherever mortals go in Tolkien's universe. They will NEVER be reunited.
Though there is already a ton of Theoden defenders here in chat, just going to add that Helm's Deep's weakness wouldn't have felt like a weakness to anyone involved. Thick, wrought-iron bars under a colossal stone wall would be impossible to breach in any realistic measure of time. Waaay faster to break done the doors or toss up ladders. Saruman had just invented gunpowder and its existence was basically unknown. Even Wormtongue nearly blew himself and Saruman up because he didn't know what it could do. I think Theoden not planning for that is pretty justified.
Theoden had his reasons. Helm's Deep had always protected his people in times of need, and before this battle they never knew about gunpowder, and couldn't imagine there were 10,000 Uruk-hai marching toward them