A War Without Hate? - The Officers and Gentlemen of North Africa - WW2 - Gallery 05
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2021
- In the history of European-style warfare, there has always been the ideal of "rules of warfare". The horrors of the Eastern Front and the Pacific prove how hollow this ideal can be, but there is one theatre where some officers are trying to maintain it: North Africa.
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Breaking the timeline completely (with no shortage of spoilers), Hans von Luck will actually end up becoming friends with his British counterparts after the war. Following a few years in a Soviet prisoner of war camp, he went to the Federal Republic of Germany. Through his membership of veterans' associations he would give lectures at military academies and even annually spoke to the British Staff college. This led to him building a close bond with the British officers he was once fighting. He appeared in a British Ministry of Defence film about the war sharing the German perspective, and was friends with Brigadier David Stileman and Majors Alastair Morrison and John Howard.
The 2nd World War is such a bizarre thing, at times. You have the horrors of the Eastern and Pacific fronts, contrasted by the camaraderie and friendship between the old enemies of the Western front after the war.
More great stuff guys... Keep it coming! I havent missed an episode since i first found you around about 1916.😁
Don't take German or allied histories at face value. The south Africans for example invented an Italian armored unit, invented a battle with them, and then retreated from them. The Germans also degrade Italian troops in their history to cover their own failures. The Italian accounts are just now being translated into English which should let us see a more balanced account. Like how the Italians at Matapan were defeated due to the faulty German Intel and non-existence of promised german air support. The north African theater had many good Italian units. The Saharan companies for example. The Germans liked to blame Italian naval logistics For their failures there when in reality almost 96% of all supplies sent arrived Gariboldi had ordered Rommel not to invade Egypt to wait for Malta so they could ensure supplies but was ignored.
I would like to make a point though.
While the soldiers themselves were relatively well off and abided by, to a reasonable degree, the rules of war as they could be understood at the time, the civilians had the short end of the stick, as usual. Nazis still did some war crimes against the Jews in North Africa, whom I should remind people were a lot more common in this era as the state of Israel was not established at this time where most of those who survived the war would eventually repatriate themselves to, or would be forced to do so by the countries they lived in. Italians still held racist views towards the Libyans and Berbers. France, under the control of Marshal Petain, still administered Algeria as it had for 112 years by this point since 1830. The war was increasingly harsh on the Egyptians who were already under the suzerainty of London via Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. Rommel was able to participate in other war crimes and crimes against humanity in other ways, like the slave labour used to build the Atlantic Wall and his soldiers embezzled whatever they wanted from the French population.
Had the Nazis, Stalinists, and the junta in Japan not raised the bar for what seemed to be a significant atrocity in this time period of WW2 from 1937 to 1945, maybe just going back to what counted as significant in the grand scheme of things in WW1, we would have been prone to seeing most of these commanders in this "war without hate" still as criminals, on par with the looting in Flanders for instance.
@@robertjarman3703 You should write more rubbish and try to rewrite history to benefit your political beliefs! Embarrassing.
My theory for this relative decency is the fact that everyone involved were strangers in these lands. No family or homeland to defend. No brother to avenge. The relative loose leech on the commanders from the difficulty of micromanaging this war from Europe must have helped too.
I look at it as similar to the experience of the navies, where the two sides fight each other but also fight a far more implacable foe (the sea or the desert).
I mean you're wrong partially. Libya had many Italians living there it's why the Italians fought until defeated while the Germans retreated.
Most of the commanders in North Africa were been junior officers before and during WWI. As bad as that war was there was still the idea of decency. Sure there were machine guns and poison gas but you still took care of the enemy when they surrendered and wounded. It seems a lot of them still held onto those chivalric ideals. Although sadly it seems the humane treatment was reserved for the enemies you like. There wasn't the racial hatred between the Brits, Aussies, Germans, and Italians compared to the other nations (USSR vs. Germany; Japan vs everyone else). Hitler himself was an Anglophile and had hoped for a settled peace with them. The Italians weren't seen as the best army but not subhuman (hell their biggest critics were their German allies).
@@kemarisite The same can be said about the war in the air. There were exceptions. Many Japanese pilots seemed to take a perverse delight in gunning down helpless men in their parachutes, but overall there was an unspoken code of chivalry.
I agree, a little more like the battles in the scramble for colonization (except huge)
"We only get shot at by arrangement."
One of the reasons they could be chivalrous with each other is that they were also fighting a common enemy being the desert.
The Anzacs (1985)
"Russian Winter" need not apply?
@@GravesRWFiA I heard a desert veteran of a British armored unit put it similarly. He wrote that after an enemy tank was shot up and the crew had bailed out, the enemy crew had enough problems just dealing with the desert. Shooting at them at that point just seem like needless cruelty. Apparently that was a wide spread sentiment, at least among the soldiers he served with.
@@GravesRWFiA Unless the Ships in position to rescue are of the Imperial Japanese Navy, that is.
No the reason was they respected each other and could view it as a duell of nations, a duell of two proud and related peoples (both being germanic). Meanwhile in Russia two contrary ideologies clashed in a huge battle for pure survival of the homeland and the weather was more hostile to life than the desert.
I recall a story told by an Aussie digger- he and his mate were on patrol outside Tobruk one night when shells started falling. They dived into an old shell hole and then noticed two germans already in there also sheltering from the barrage. They looked at each other warily- one of the Aussies gestured at the artillery and asked 'You?'. A german shook his head and said in clear English 'Bloody Italians'.
They stayed in the hole for 10minutes until the barrage ended, then both sides left and went their own way.
I know many Indians who's grandfather's fought in the British Indian army's various regiments such as the Punjabs Rajputs marathas . All stories of encounters with enemy soldiers were similar to the tale of the two guys of opposite sides not wanting to be there. It's strange because Indians are not white , but oddly enough the Germans did not see them as inferior.
@@nativegerry335 that's because Indians were considered to be an Aryan people by the Germans.
@@nativegerry335 the last German soldiers defending the Reichstag and bunker were African french SS soldiers
@@alexcc8664 The French SS Charlemagne
@@xxfrosty609xx3 yrs
"The hardest thing to keep alive in combat? Your humanity."
That quote has always stuck with me. Never really understood it. Till my time in combat.
You gotta know that, when it's your homeland survival, shit hits different.
I knew someone whose mother was a British nurse, stationed in France at the time of its fall. She was in a Red Cross plane ferrying wounded troops back to England. A German fighter bore down on them, and they thought they were gonners, but the plane escourted them over the Channel, in order (I guess) that they wouldn't be picked off by any other German plane. Half way across, it waggled its wings and flew away.
A lot of German pilots did that with damaged bombers too
That's similar to the story of Franz Stigler and Charlie Brown's B-17 in 1943
The German plane being so close would have also protected it from possible German ground fire.
An amazing Story , Just imagine if that German Pilot shoot down the British Plane you wouldn't be here watching and commenting on. This video Aow
@@cheriefsadeksadek2108
Any different outcome of these battles would have pruned the family trees in different ways ! Yes your father could have been killed and you would not exist !
My Grandfather got lost and ended up behind enemy lines in North Africa. Ended up at a German checkpoint at night, was just told which direction to drive and they let him go.
OMG That is absolutely crazy yet Wonderful at the same time
Man this is even difficult to believe. Ok they couldn't have him prisoner? At least rob his vehicle to gain something for your side lol, or maybe it was too long to go on foot?. Anyway, crazy story.
Back in the late 1970s I spent my summer vacations working as a cleaner in the BOCM Mills in Selby, Yorkshire. One of the blokes there was a bricklayer who carried some scars from the war.
One day a heavily accented foreign lorry driver wandered into the dressing room canteen in search of refreshment as his lorry was unloaded and he got talking to the brickie. It turned out he was a German who had driven a tank for the Afrika Corps during the war.
He asked the brickie what he had done - "drove a British tank in the desert" was the reply.
"You are very lucky to survive " said the German.
"Yes - I am very lucky" responded the brickie as the former enemies shook hands and parted as friends.
Honestly considering all the other things that happened in the war this episode is really wholesome :)
I had just the opposite reaction. To me, it says a lot about the British that they were able to get along so well with the Nazis.
It’s not a surprise that Churchill wanted to rearm the Nazis to keep fighting against the Soviets immediately after the war’s end, or that West Germany and NATO would ultimately do that.
For the British, it was nothing personal. Which says a lot about the British.
@@ADavidJohnson that depends who you ask.
@@ADavidJohnson not all germans were nazis
@@ADavidJohnson to me it says that its just soldiers understanding each other and understanding that they are both going through the same hell so no need to make it worse
There's an account of a couple of Australian soldiers at Tobruk looking over the battlefield covered in enemy dead. One said, "You know what? I don't even hate them," to which the other replied, "No one said you have to hate them, just have to kill them."
This was a nice pick me up. Especially with all of the hatred everywhere else in the world in 1942.
No more brother wars
I nursed a lot of Australian Tobruk veterans back in the day. One shared a delightful story of how they'd buried aircraft bombs as anti-tank mines. No plane to drop them, so put them to use somehow. Anyway, a Panzer 3 drove over one. The driver crawled out, shaken up but alive. The Aussies didn't shoot, but captured him instead. The driver in English said something like: "I was driving and then Boom! the floor of the tank hit me, then Crash!, the roof of the tank hit me in the head. I've had enough of this war." The Aussies smiled, comforted him, told him he'll be alright from now on, and gave him a cup of tea.
My grandfather who served in Egypt at the time always said the enemy was the desert & not the Axis troops. He too also spoke about the acts of kindness to all troops that were serving. Helping each others wounded & burying the dead. they also swapped food, water & cigarettes at times when each others supplies were low. My grandfather ended up being sent to Burma transferred to the British Indian army as an officer & found the Japanese army not chivalrous at all. He went from the War Without Hate to a War With Hate.
Lieutenant General Sir Leslie Morshead is a well decorated Australian hero whom we learnt about at school when I was growing up. His life & bio is highly worth a read to those interested about WWI & WWII. He was also awarded the Virtuti Militari by the Polish government in Exile. His leadership in the Battle for Borneo ensured that Australian troops got low casualties during the campaign.
Montgomery declined to make Morshead a Corps Commander at el Alamein because he was not a member of the regular army. The Australian army did appoint him as one after his return to the Pacific in 1943, however.
In 1945 the Australian government insisted that Morshead should be made commander of the Commonwealth Corps for the planned invasion of Japan instead of a British officer from the Italian campaign. By that stage Morshead had had experience of commanding amphibious operations in the Pacific in cooperation with the Americans under MacArthur and so was an ideal candidate for the job.
Hans Von Luck's memoirs were something. Especially the after-war Gulag period, and the life after war back in Germany.
I concur; great read.
It's a great read but you have to take some of the events with a pinch of salt. When he wrote the book he was doing after-dinner speaking and obviously embellished certain bits in that style. Plus some bits are put in just to show the continuity of the war. The Gulag stuff is excellent as you say though.
@@ravenfeeder1892 If true, the best part was meeting the Gulag warden, who ended up being the same officer whose plate, filled with steaming hot food, he got to enjoy, after an unexpected capture of a building.
I have it infront of me and can recomend it for anyone. Been a while since i read it but i remember it s an "easy read".
My favorite part was about the beduins i think.
Absolutely! The horrors of the Eastern front is incredible rendered by Luck. And his respect for Rommel and later his condemnation of the SS panzer division in the Falaise pocket after Dday were cool.
Aussie vet told a story of when alone on patrol he met 2 Germans. They fought by hand till an artillery barrage hit them. All 3 hugged together in a hole until it stopped. They all swore about the Italians, shook hands and went seperate ways.
Another example of this kind of respect is what happened to De la Penne who carried out the attack on HMS Valiant in Alex. He was awarded Italy's highest medal for valour and received it in 1945. Admiral Morgan who commanded the Valiant at the time of the attack, asked if he could present the medal and did so.
One of my great grandfathers was actually captured by Rommel in Normandy. I am told by my grandad that Rommel let him and his company return to the British lines, because Rommel was retreating and didn't want to let them be dealt with an SS division who was guarding their rear. War is a funny thing.
Thank you for sharing this story!
There was no Waffen SS in Africa but it’s still a nice story to make up
@@9pktheories read it again. He's talking about Normandy. Rommel was commanding officer of Army Group B with overall responsibility for the "Atlantic Wall" from November 1943 until after the D-Day invasions.
@@OptimusWombat my mistake I didn’t realIze Rommels
Career went beyond North Africa
This episodes illustrate the drama of war: People killing each other. In peace they most likely like each other and become friends...
On one of his advance reconnaissance which took him ahead of his army(again) Rommel came across to a British hospital. He inspected it, greeted the wounded and left it without touching anything. North Africa was sure different.
Do you have a source for that? In Steven Pressfield "Killing Rommel" there was a similar incident but it's not exactly a historic book either....
@@kr0k0deilos Rommel wasn't prosecuted for war crimes. That should be evidence enough lol
Rommel wasn’t prosecuted for war crimes because he was forced to commit suicide on 14 Oct 44, before the war’s end. But it is extremely doubtful, at least to me, that he would have been, had he survived. There was one incident early on in late May 40 when a French officer, I believe a Colonel, refused to join a column of prisoners. Rommel ordered him 3 times to fall in with the POWs and he refused. He had him shot. This is the only time I know of when he would have done something that may have been considered incorrect. Although, what else could he have done? The 7Pz Div was racing across France on the way to the coast. As for the story about inspecting a British field hospital, I have read this too although I do not have the reference at my fingertips. What I recall is that they (Rommel and his staff) believed it was a German field hospital as they were somewhat lost, went in, realized the error and talked to the doctors. The British requested some medicines and Rommel assured them they would get it, and he made sure it was delivered.
@@rubyrosebuds I mean if you disobey orders 3 TIMES as a prisoner you were kind of asking to be shot. I doubt the soviets would have asked more than once
@@stevencooper4422 Difficult to prosecute someone posthumously.
Without doubt, this is your best episode over the 3 years or so I have followed this channel. Well done! Very well done! Bravo!
That's high praise. Thank you very much!
6:00 thank you for mentioning General Morshead, he was by far Australia’s best general in WW2 and should have been the man in charge of the Australian army instead of that frumpy little toad Thomas Blamey, it’s just a shame none of the Australians on the Kokoda track shot that grotesque suck up when he called them cowards.
And add MacArthur to the score as well
@@benwilson6145 re-fucking-tweet
Yeah, there's a reason there's no hospitals or universities named after Blamey. I really wish the Army would rename Blamey Barracks. It's a crying shame Morshead isn't better known.
It's unfortunate that politics, pride and ambition gets in the way.
Agreed 100%. Even after the were Blamey was an absolute tool.
The Desert War Purnells special, details how each side agreed to not fight at the hottest time of the day etc. Also that when Polish troops joined the Brits they were told to stick to the agreement so the Germans wouldn't know that fresh troops had arrived. One of my favourite films, Ice Cold in Alex, has some memorable lines about the desert being the greater enemy.
Love Ice Cold in Alex. Good call.
Such a good beer drinking scene...
What did the Poles think about this, given the exponentially worse treatment of their pople by the Nazis?
@@neilwilson5785 According to the book, when they first arrived they were not happy (at all!) about following the "rules", but even they realised they had to adapt to the environment, and also not tip off the Axis that "new players" were on the scene! The Purnells series of books are a good read!
@@neilwilson5785 Polish troops were sometimes used to guard German and Italian POWs, and some accounts describe them as quite abusive.
Re: Aussie troops. Here in Australia all military service records from WWII and before are now public domain. A few years ago I used to go for an extended walk at a park near my house in which was a memorial inscribed with the names of various soldiers who had lost their lives in WWI, WWII, Korea and so on. As an exercise I decided to look one of them up after each walk.
One guy served in WWI. He volunteered right at the beginning and served at Gallipoli and all of the major Aussie battles in France eg Mouquet Farm etc before being shot in the head in 1917. He was actually shot in October and was repatriated to Britain before being sent home by ship, he died when the ship was docked in Ceylon two weeks before Christmas. The family must have been devastated.
The best bit was his perp sheet. Even though he was a volunteer he was AWL when his unit's ship left and spent time in the brig. After that he had multiple infractions for drunkenness, fighting and disrespecting an officer, along with more than one trip to the doctor's to treat the "French disease".
He is my current hero !
May he rest in peace. Thank you for sharing this.
AWL for us Aussies. Sorry I am being picky, but your spelling is Yank.
@@petercastles5978 Fixed. Thanks for that - I was born in the US but have lived most of my life here in Oz. I was never in the military but I do have one brother who served in the US Army and another who was in the Australian Army Reserves
There were instances of Polish-Italian "fraternization" on North African frontlines during periods of stalemates as both nations had really no quarrel with each other (btw. Italian Foreign Ministry was helping Polish soldiers to reach France after the fall of Poland in 1939). Apparently, Poles were buying ammunition from Italians to play the Polish national anthem on their machine gun. They also played chess matches against each other.
And both were probably pretty staunch Catholics too I expect....
Do we have a source for that machine gun story? That's amazing!
I'm currently reading von Luck's book Panzar Commander. He was definitely a gentleman and had a deep respect for all his enemies, even his Russian captors after the war.
Great episode that showcased that even in "the darkness of the Second World War" there were still moments of honor and even a certain respect for one's foes manifested during the privations of a difficult campaign. Cheers and keep up the good work
Agreed. Telling the stories of the battles of various atrocities is important, historically, but I feel the most important part of warfare to make sure is carried forward and in memory is stories like these, the stories of people just people decent people, to the best of their reasonable abilities within awful situations. It's stories like these that are the most important to learn from.
Non-white POWs were often treated very badly in North Africa. ‘ … I cannot describe how atrociously we prisoners were treated by the Germans. We were given half a pint of water and one 8oz biscuit. This was all our daily meal. We were employed on odd jobs, fatigues from early morning till it was dark. We were beaten and kicked by the Germans…We have suffered such a lot which, if I write down will pierce your heart’.’ Research by Diya Gupta , Kings College London, ‘Letter from Europe and North Africa by Indian POWs in WW II’.
This is an important point. The shared honor between fanatically racist Nazis and ruthless imperialists only applied to fellow White people.
I read in one of the books on the war in the desert that the White South African soldiers taken POW did not want to be held with the Black soldiers. At this stage, Rommel himself got involved and said, you fight together, you stay together. This treatment you describe was not condoned by the leadership, is what I am saying.
@@rubyrosebuds This comment by Rommel may be true but I can’t find it accurately referenced. There is objective evidence that the Germans in North Africa did separate non-white soldiers from their white comrades. The German’s did not regard non-whites as ‘proper’ soldiers in North Africa and not see them as protected by the various POW protective treaties. ‘Many non-European soldiers from different parts of the Commonwealth endured bad treatment from their captors, and several were shot if they gave too much trouble.86 Mugglestone recalled how black soldiers were shot by German guards while being marched to the POW camp following the fall of Tobruk…87 In the Tobruk camp, black South African POWs were forced “under threat of death” to do war work, which was contrary to the Geneva Convention.88 Another report claims that Indian and black prisoners at Tobruk were not allowed to take cover in shelters when the town was bombed by the Allied forces. Furthermore, their food was totally inadequate - they were only given one packet of British Army biscuits per day and water rations were kept to a minimum - this while they were being assaulted by both German and Italian guards who supervised the war work they were doing.89’ Karen Horn, Historia 56, 2, November 2011, pp 94-112, 106
‘Narratives from North Africa: South African prisoner-of-war
experience following the fall of Tobruk, June 1942’. It is difficult to imagine that senior German commanders were unaware of what was happening.
Friendly reminder that Germans had arabic and black troops as well as an SS muslim unit. Also, supplies were scarce in the desert.
@UC9bbyv_fofY7AMTQU9kMzPg And you, fuck off with your political bullshit
The early Kriegsmarine action had its share of chivalry, for example Capt Lansdorf of the Graf Spee, and the submarine captain involved in the Laconia tragedy. I don’t know what the US command was thinking ordering strafing of the Laconia rescue, but that kind of ruined cruiser rule chivalry.
The Kriegsmarine was largely clean throughout the war except for Heinz Wilhelm Eck and occurrences that happened later in the war during the Courland campaign. Mind you the Royal Navy wasn't completely clean either. What Anthony Miers did in command of HMS Torbay can easily be called a war crime too. All in all the Battle of the Atlantic was very clean considering how incredibly hard fought it was. A polar opposite of the Pacific sea war where both sides shelled survivors of sunken ships.
Shoot first, ask questions later. Very American
@@jonbaxter2254 just maybe the U-boat captain shouldn't have violated a very clear rule of warfare. (Don't fly the Red Cross symbol when you have no right to ever do so). It's pefidious conduct and with the modern rules against human shields is even more illegal today.
@@alphabravodelta42 I do believe the Laconia diasaster is an acceptable exemption from this rule. The U-boat captain surfaced and sent a unencoded message on all frequencies stating that the U boat (and other uboats) would not fire on or attack any ship that attempted to rescue the survivors, so long as they were not fired upon. Thus, they draped the red cross flag as a symbol to air crews (who may not have gotten the message) to signify their intent. Granted, it was a rushed affair and the red cross symbol would have definetly been confusing for an aircrew seeing a surfaced Uboat towing a bunch of life boats.
However, the bomber that was ordered to attack the U boat had gotten the notification from higher up that it was indeed being peaceful and was not shooting anyone and was generally just a hospital ship that could submerge. They were however ordered to attack it as it was believed they were only rescuing the Italian POW's (this was, obviously, incorrect)
So yes, this is an exception to that rule. That U-boat, although armed, had not fired on civilian chips and cruisers from the RN and Italian service. I think it is safe to say that for the sake of those thosuands in the water, it was ok to drape a red cross flag and say "hey, we good bro?"
The US attack on the Laconia was a result of miscommunication, poor decision making, and "just following orders" mentality.
The pilot initially didn't attack and flew off when it was made clear what was going on, but the superior he reported to ordered an attack on the mistaken assumption that the sub was only rescuing Italians and that the display of the Red Cross symbol was some kind of ruse. The pilot unfortunately, instead of refusing to follow through an order to commit an atrocity, returned and carried out the attack.
Great episode. My uncle Fred was a British tank commander if North Africa and later in Italy. He had the greatest respect for Rommel and the Afrika Corp, despite having a punishing time, losing tanks and crewmates and being wounded himself. Also had to chuckle at my fellow Aussies acting up, a proud tradition to this day. Some of my schoolmates' fathers fought at Tobruk and they were larrikins, yet tough mothers.
Hans Joachim Marseille kept a South African pilot he had shot down as his personal guest. He was kept unrestrained and allowed almost complete freedom of the airbase.
To Indy and every one of the rest of the good people that bring us this quality programming, I want to say thank you. I'm an old geezer now at 66, and have read about every book that I could get my hands on about history, especially WW2. You guys present by far the most interesting accounts of what happened in the war, in every episode. I just want to say that this episode was a joy to watch I'm not quite sure how to put it, in regards to not trying to demean any previous episodes This episode was as fine as you can get. Thank you!
@Brian Korbelik
Thank you for your support and kind words Brian!
I've read Hans Von Lucks autobiography "Panzer Commander". He goes into quite a bit of detail in the "War without Hate" in the desert. Its a fascinating read.
Loved Von Lucks book. Still on of my favorites and he seemed to enjoy writing about his time in the Afrika Corps.
I would love to read it. Could you tell me the title I read a little about him in the book 'Pegasus bridge' by Stephen Ambrose
Love the little interactions between soldiers in war like that tank story. It's all so bleak mostly, but some humanity shines through.
"He gave me a British cigarette. We got one of your supply columns, he said".
The breadth and depth of these stories and their background information is what sets TimeGhost head and shoulders above other content on any broadcast medium. This isn’t just great UA-cam content, this is some of the best historical content anywhere. As a veteran watching this I think, “Yes, they get it!” I’m proud to be a member of the TomeGhost Army now. Many thanks.
No "dark skies" here.;)
North African Campaign 1940-1943.
The war which was chivalrous, gentlemanliness, and honor. All forces involved, British, American, Italian, and Germans all showed good acts of kindness. Men distinguished themselves in multiple battles and men fought with exemplary courage. To the men who perished in the sea of sands in the heat of the North African sun, May the Rest In Peace and forever be remembered. Godspeed.
The funniest Von Luck story from the time is when Von Luck captures the son in law of a cigarette magnate... and they attempt to exchange him for cigarettes lol
Indy, this was one of your better ones(the others are merely superb...) To be reminded of our better side in all this carnage is well worth remembering...Never forget!
There are similar experiences recounted in in Adam Makos, "A Higher Call," the now famous story about Luftwaffe pilot Lt. Franz Stiegler and USAF B-17 pilot Lt. Charlie Brown. Stiegler had initially been sent to Africa, and his superior officer seemed to conduct operations in an almost quasi-WWI "honor" style. It was still war, as Indy says; but the CO told his new pilots, if he EVERY saw anyone shoot at a parachuting enemy pilot, he would shoot that German down himself. War IS hell; but sometimes, with white gloves on. Decency and humanity can prevail even under the most hateful of circumstances.
Unfortunately not everyone followed that rule.
During the invasion of Poland there were some incidents of German pilots killing Polish parachutists, and later the Germans accused Polish pilots in British service of doing the same.
American ace Richard "Bud" Peterson also once witnessed a German pilot in a Me-109 strafing air crew that had bailed out of a bomber that had been shot down. Peterson then closed on the Me-109 in question and rather than simply shoot it down in a fashion that might kill the pilot, pulled his shots so to speak just to force the German pilot to bail out. Then while the German pilot was floating down in his parachute, Peterson machine-gunned him in retribution. If anyone is interested in hearing his account of it, someone uploaded an interview clip with him to youtube titled "WWII Brutality Richard 'Bud' Peterson P-51 Ace Interview."
To be fair however Peterson also makes it clear that pilots and air crew that had bailed out were usually not harmed by other side, so the incident he witnessed and his response to it are presented as an exception to the rule.
In New Zealand, Field Marshall Rommel is held in the highest of respect
Same here in Australia. 🇦🇺
I just watched a documentary from 1976 about Operation Goodwood with Major von Luck and General Roberts. Both in the same room sitting either side of a map of the operation with their pointing sticks and explaining how it went from both sides perspective. It was excellent, look it up.
Christo, do you have a link?
@@davidharrison5587 Just put Operation Goodwood into the search bar, it's a four part series on the "British Army Documentary" channel.
It seems likely that Luck made up a number of his ‘stories’. His recollections appear unreliable.
My Great grandfather was captured in Italy at the end of the war and sent to a POW camp. When they searched him on arrival they took his wallet that contained a picture of his family. He punched the guard who cocked his rifle ready to shoot him but the guard was pushed aside by the Camp Commandant who retrieved the fallen wallet, took the picture of his wife and my nan and her brother out and then handed the picture to my great grandfather saying "I would not want this taken from me either".
By the time the camp surrendered my great grandfather had made friends with the commandant and he handed his SS bayonet to him which remains in the family. They met up after the war a few times too. It took a while for my nan to forgive the Germans for taking her father away from her for a short time but he didn't feel any hate himself.
Thanks for sharing - great story!
Here is a bit of an anecdote about the relationship between the Germans and the Libyan population. For Indy & Co. as well as whoever else might wish to read.
At an auction a year ago I bought a photo album from a German soldier in the 21st Panzer Division, Afrika Korps. It contains all kinds of photos with captions giving context and details. Most of his photographs are not of the war itself (although there are some interesting ones of knocked-out tanks and whatnot) but rather of Libya and the North Africans.
This is what drew me to the photo album. He and his fellow soldiers seem to have had a very genial relationship with the locals, with many smiling photos taken of them together. Many include children, who look absolutely delighted to have their photos taken with the foreign soldiers, who were Germans and not the hated Italians. My favorite photographs are a set of individual portrait photos taken of several Libyan women, which I feel are emblematic of the spirit in which this album was created. It is hard to describe but the photographs seem so respectful, and done on terms set by these women. They look regal and elegant. I feel that the photos convey something about how this soldier saw them: as sophisticated, intelligent people of culture. There is none of the condescension, if not outright disdain, that you might expect given what Germany was like during this time.
This aspect of the photo album has always fascinated me. Maybe it's kind of uplifting that no matter the sort of endless racial propaganda he may have been exposed to, none of that mattered when he met the Libyans-he saw them as human beings. I do not know if this attitude was typical for other soldiers in the Afrika Korps. Although based on photos of other men in his unit, his particular battalion, on the whole, seems to have at least been very friendly with the Libyans. But again, I do not know how representative this was of the entire Afrika Korps.
As for what happened to this soldier in the end, sadly I do not know. The photo album did contain a few postcards sent to his family, which I translated. Mostly he talked about how bad the fleas were and how much he missed his wife and kids. Just based on the fact that this album exists though, and the fact that he seemed to be in more of a rear echelon support/engineer battalion, I doubt he was killed in action. My guess would be that he surrendered in 1943 with the rest of the Afrika Korps, and hopefully returned safely to his family a few years later.
A very interesting story. Thank you for sharing it.
Share the album with indy and Co. They probably will be willing to do something with it, maybe when 45 and the end comes.
@@tempo5366 Something I should have mentioned that is more related to this videos is that there are a few pictures of a prison camp for Australian POWs near Benghazi. A lot of the Australians are still wearing their Brodie helmets. Apparently, the Germans let them keep them! Its kind of funny, but the pictures of the Australians together with the German guards make them look like two opposing football teams, who are just hanging out after a friendly match.
Oh my god I wanna see those photos
Possibly my favourite beginning to an episode yet. Beautiful.
Both the Germans and the English considered each other their racial equals.
In the eastern front, Germans considered the Russians as subhumans. And in the Pacific, the Japanese considered themselves as a superior race with respect to other Asians. And the Americans looked down at Asians as a lesser race.
That explains the 'gentlemanliness'.
An everyone viewed the Americans as, naive an ignorant to the realities of modern warfare.
@@puzzled012 When the US joined the British in Africa they were kicked up and down the alley by the Germans. Fighting on the ground is different then dropping bombs on unmoving targets. Of course the Us forces adapted (just like the Russians)
@@bwhit6541 oh ya we had to catch up lol
A lot of Indians fought in Africa against Rommel and were said to have similar experiences
This was a really, really interesting episode! Never a shortage of insightful and nuanced information on this channel. As always great work!
Thank you very much!
These quotes come right out of Hans Van Luck's biography that I am reading just now... Great book
This is probably my favorite episode so far. I feel like esp in youtube history "myth busting" often gets a lot of focus cus it gets views. This kind of stuff was very very common in 1980s, 1990s pop history but has kind of faded from the spotlight. (Im not saying showing the bad stuff is in any way bad, just speaking about the focus shift). Small stuff like the story about the italian falgore or the doctor exchange and rommels reaction. truly something!
I can see the memo from HQ.. "We can tolerate the drunkenness, resisting military police, and shooting in the streets. But breaking into officers' messes! My God man! A line must be drawn somewhere."
I would love to see a profile of New Zealand’s Charles Upham. The only combat soldier to be awarded a bar to his Victoria Cross. He was captured and sent to Colditz, made several escape attempts and survived the war, dying at the age of 86 in 1994.
Did they mention him back in July?
Actually he hated Germans because his uncle was killed by them WW1. He refused to buy or use anything German.
My father fought as an infantryman at Sidi Rezegh. He was in the 20th Armoured and Infantry, a New Zealand Battalion and was decimated by Panzers, with many being taken POW. Elsewhere Maori soldiers particularly enjoyed bayoneting, and at times the order "No prisoners" was carried out with a degree of enthusiasm. Dad was a stretcher-bearer for the 28th Maori Battalion, and reported that that he "got flat feet from carrying them." Dad was a deer-culler and gold prospector before WW2, and lived and loved the hard outdoor life. He was a decent rough blacksmith and was able to turn those skills to good use in the war.
I remember an interview of a french veteran of the battle of Bir Hakeim. He recalls an event that occurred during the battle in which he and his comrades captured an Italian captain who spoke perfect french. They asked him to stay with them in their foxhole until he could be evacuated because they needed a fourth player for their bridge game.
Dynamite content again guys! Once more, I give special props to those among y'all colorizing the photos. You're improving more and more as we get further into the war, and I'm eager to see more of y'all's work in the future! Keep it up!
Maybe material for this series is detailed in a book, "Project 19"; US personnel, not just military, repaired aircraft the Brits had via a "lend-lease" program "secretly" run by "Douglas Overseas Service" in Gura, Ethiopia (now Eritrea). An Italian radio station & top machine shop, it then served as a POW camp for Italians. My US Navy dad was 'seconded' there as he spoke Italian & was a Fed. Prison guard during the Depression. According to the book, the officers were accorded the "honor" of keeping their sidearms. (Many Italians had no fascist sympathies &/or war enthusiasm & it was far from the front.) [Post war it was CIA listening station "Kagnew" with its high altitude.]
*On the other hand* nearer the front on the coast, I knew an Englishman, a tough Cockney, who had high praise for the Scots ~ who would go on night strikes on the Germans, crawling in their kilts with a knife in their teeth to slash guards & any sleepers' throats.
the gentlemanly attitude radiated outward from the top. considering how rommel defeated italians during ww1 him simply commanding german and italians forces in an italian possession required such an attitude amongst former enemies.
I absolutely love studf like this. Its moments like these, no matter how long ago they occurwd, that truly make you feel an inate human connection to the characters. I can instantly and vivdly visualize each of these encounters as you describe them.
Epically satisfying and a real mid week treat, right from Indy’s superb opener. A special episode I never knew I needed. Because the quality of your historical inquiry continues to illustrate and illuminate the details of this war. Thank you.
Hans von Luck's book was an excellent read - highly highly recommend
Its well researched and well written episodes, like this one, that makes the Time Ghost channel and video so awesome. Thanks so much!
I've read Von Luck's autobiography. At one point in North Africa their column was strafed by a British fighter. All the men scattered off the road except for the men manning the armored car with the radio. The radio operator remained inside with a second man in the open doorway. The fighter dived on the armored car but did not shoot and as it passed over Von Luck could see the pilot emphatically making a waving motion away from the vehicle. He yelled for those men to get out and once they did the plane made another pass and destroyed the vehicle.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing!
Mark Felton touched on this in his latest YT video on the furthest south raid of the Afrika Korp. Highly recommended.
I used to work with the North Irish Horse on occasion. One story was they had a prisoner in North Africa WW2 , young guy, they looked at pictures of his family and so on. CSM comes along immediately shoots him through the head. "We don't have the facilities for prisoners". Gentility had its limits.
I love history and WW2 is what I have spent the most time. These sorts of stories are definitely my favorite!
Glad you enjoyed the video!
A far cry from the Eastern front...I love your work Indy and crew. Thanks for all you do to keep history alive :)
When I was in the RAAF and stationed at Williamtown (fighter base), I made friends with a WW I digger. We would talk about many things/subjects but never the war. One day, cannot remember why,
possibly during a discussion rifles, he told me he was a sniper during the war nd one day he lined up a German and was about to shoot him when the German after looking around, dropped his trousers to have a s**t. Jim said that he couldn't possibly shoot him as it would haunt him for the rest of his life.
I think this is my favourite episode so far, humanity, decency and chivalry, my history teacher told me his grandfather got put in military prison for a while because he took pity and shared his rations, his water and cigarettes with a Turk prisoner at Gallipoli
Spike Milligan wrote of how in the 1960s, the 8th Army and the Afrika Corps used to invite each other to reunions. He had dinner one night, and struck up conversation with a nice old German gent. It turned out that their artillery batteries had fired at each other. At the end of the dinner, the German said: "Let me sign your menu."
Spike looked at what he had written
"Spike, I am so glad we missed each other in 1941."
That opening sequence reminds me of the movie Sahara with Humphrey Bogart. One of my favorites.
It’s remarkable the variety in the theaters of battle one could find themselves in between WWI and WWII. One month you’re serving in the Sahara desert, the next you’re scaling the alps.
Yep, the word ‘war’ is correct, I lost 5 great uncles in North Africa.
I guess much of that comes from the striking contrast with the eastern front
@Fabian Kirchgessner I mean, the Russian civil war was horrible - most civil wars are - but it was a garden party compared to the Eastern front during WW2.
@Fabian Kirchgessner More like 8 millions, which is still huge, but pales in comparison of the 27 millions they took during WW2. And that figure only accounts for one side, not both. And don't include death within non-soviet occupied countries like Poland.
@@krisfrederick5001 Ehh an Einsatzgruppen group was attached to the Afrika Korps if I recall correctly.
The British with our allies had our eastern front where there was virtually no rules and that of course was in Burma against the Imperial Japanese forces no quarter asked or given and a great deal of the time no prisoners taken either.
Yeah, pretty much any front with th Japanese was pretty brutal, especially China
In Phillipines also, where the Battle of Manila occurred w/c is the Asian Stalingrad...
@@Liamtheseriousguy rather than Stalingrad the Battle of Manila was more akin to the Battle of Warsaw.
One of the most heart-wrenching tales I ever read regarding Burma, I suppose early in the war when the Japanese were winning, involved a British officer (a major, IIRC) being informed by his medical officer that they had several severely wounded men had no hope of surviving their injuries, but who also could not be carried out due to the urgency of the situation in which they had to retreat.
The commander spent a few moments with them before giving the order to have his own severely wounded men euthanized by their fellow soldiers rather than leave them for the Japanese, who would almost certainly torture them to death. The doctor, who in describing the situation to his superior had been suggesting that route indirectly, erupted in anguish that he didn't want to do it, but had no more morphine to spare. The commander said he tried to cover his ears so he wouldn't hear the awful report of the rifles dispatching the wounded men, but that nothing seemed to block out the sound.
There were a few minor skirmishes in Singapore and New Guinea as well.
That really is Morshead standing on the right in the trench at Lone Pine Gallipoli at 6:00. So intense was the fighting that of the 22 officers in the battalion, Morshead was the only one who did not become a casualty.
Like most of the AIF officers, including Monash, he was not a professional soldier.
Yes if you look closely, you can tell the strain on his face ,Lone Pine was probably a good primer for what was to come in France he was definitely among our best officers. R
Thank you so much for this, I honestly feel it may be the most important episode you've ever done, across both wars. While talking about the battles and events is interesting, and talking about atrocities is valuable, it's talking about the actual humanity of individual people, of people doing their best to be decent human beings in the worst situations and environments imaginable, that are the most important lessons and stories to keep alive and make sure are retold.
War is a horrible thing, but being able to show that despite that, the individual people of opposing sides could show each other respect and decency, and often even become good friends after the conflict is over, this is what's most essential. And something all too often glossed over in, shall we say, heated discussions of history and warfare.
Once we get to late-1943, please do a special on the Franz Stigler & Charlie Brown incident, where a Bf 109 pilot spared a severely crippled B-17 and escorted it out of German airspace. The two pilots only finally learned who each other were 50 years later, and became close friends.
I love hearing good things about the the Italians, it makes me smile.
Another amazing video Indy! You help me get through these long drives. Been here since your WW1 series, and I can’t wait for the next episode of this one!
Lovely special on a more honorable theatre of the Second World War.
Being Australian, I particularly liked the part on Australians at war in North Africa. My father's brother, Uncle John, was an artilleryman in the upcoming battle at El Alamein while dad piloted a Liberator out of northern India into Burma. My grandfather also served as an artilleryman in the First World War in the Middle East and his brother was on the Western Front and was killed just two weeks before the Armistice.
Thank you for your truly magnificent work in bringing to life the two World Wars.
Thank you for sharing your Uncle John's story. Comments like these really help bring history to life and are one of our favourite parts of making these videos.
British prime minister, Winston Churchill, said after the battle of El Alamein of the Italians of the Folgore Brigade, “We must honour the men that were the Lions of the Folgore.”
Practically the Folgore brigade were the best men in terms of prowess, spirit and physical condition the italian army possessed at the time. They were all volunteers, well trained and also very well equipped compared to the regular italian army.
He never made that statement
@@alfredodallolio2599
Yes he did. As a simple on line search will prove.
@@Wotsitorlabart"online search" is your source, I see. Not a single line in the transcriptions of his public speeches. The "folgore words" of Churchill is one of the many ww2 myth. Tell me your written source: when and where did he make that statement otherwise you're just spreading a false myth.
@@alfredodallolio2599
I think I stand corrected. The speech is said to have been given in the House of Commons on 21st November 1942. However, Hansard, which records all speeches that take place in Parliament, records no speeches by Churchill on that date. I really should check more thoroughly. So, if the quote is indeed fake (and lots of people appear to be innocently running with it) who are the perpetrators? The Italians?
I really enjoyed this episode, thanks for making it!
My grandad was a ambulance driver in North Africa and Italy. Would never tell us any stories, passed away so will never know his experiences. Thanks for the insight.
this is honestly one of the best history channels out there
I am surprised the fairly famous incident about the tank wrecks wasnt mentioned. Generally speaking, both sides would bury each others dead when they took over the battlefield, tank crews included especially given that you know, hot box + human remains = horrific results when left too long. There was 1 incident where this didnt happen and the british were upset and the story comes from 1 man who had to go into a tank and pull his friends remains out. They asked the germans why they wouldnt bury them and the Germans simply apologized and said they had no time to do it. Really interesting little things like that really do show it as a different form of war.
Literally was reading 'Tank War'; very good book! And am on the North African campaign. It is fascinating this part of the war
A great video about the War in North Africa is always a pleasure, Keep it up guys
An uncle of mine was one of the wounded saved in the account given in this piece. He was seriously wounded and the German chivalry saved his life.
this is true, a close family fried of our was guarding some Italian prisoners In Boston and passed a group of them when he spotted his brother. hard to believe two brothers one fighting for Italy and the other for America. i had the honor of hearing this story from both of them. It's sad politicians start wars but never fight in them.
@Fabian Kirchgessner
Both the Italian and German people didn't want a war,
That's why the nazis had to conduct a false flag operation to make it look like they were attacked,
And that's why the Italians overthrew Mussolini and had a hatred for the war they were dragged into while unprepared
@Fabian Kirchgessner
Anecdotal evidence doesn’t have a say here,
Germany didn’t hold a referendum to see if they wanted an invasion of poland or not,
It was the Nazi party which made false justifications, false flag attacks and then which launched a heavy propaganda campaign upon the German people to try to convince them that they wanted a war of aggression.
So yeah, upon starting of the war and upon Britain, France and a large majority of British subjects declaring war on them, the German people weren’t actually hyped up for a war,
It was only after Poland and especially after france fell that support went up, because they thought they were winning.
Thank you for this episode it has restored some of my faith in humanity.
Glad you liked it this much!
I would follow him on terrestrial television , I am surprised no one has approached or broached the subject ! But with his sincerity and attention to detail makes him a obvious leader that could be used in the history channel shows !!!!
This was a very interesting video, thanks Indy and the crew!
You're welcome! Glad you liked it
So good to hear of Hans von Luck! I have his book.👏👏👏
Ans as an Australian, wonderful that Lt General Moreshead got some Respect.👏👏🇦🇺
Interesting. My Dad was an RAF air gunner during the War (86 and 39 Squadrons). He was posted to Egypt in '41 and then to Malta in '42. I remember him telling me during a discussion about the war in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union that his war, by comparison, was a "gentlemen's war". Of course, the concept of a 'gentlemen's war' is still relative. For example, on Malta, he told me that when he was fished-out of the sea once after being shot down; he was told by the Air-Sea Rescue crew that they routinely left German and Italian air crew to drown. Malta was a very difficult spot of course. Essentially everyone was starving so things were a little bitter. And even though my father had no animosity towards the Germans, the fact that people were simply left to drown, was simply regarded as a practical reality given the privations on the Island.
Thanks for sharing this story. During this awful war people fell victim to other man's aggression, as much as to the unforgiving reality of war. Cutting a supply line was enough to put thousands of soldiers and civilians at risk of dying. Indeed a tragic way to loose one's life...
The Maltese felt especially aggrieved when the first italian bombers started pounding the island, because they were so close to each other initially and there was no particular reason for them to do so. Some swore that if a downed pilot landed on the islands he'd be torn to shreds by the angry populace. Ernle Bradford mentioned it in his book about the 1943 siege of Malta.
As always, a great video from Indy and the team. Been rewatching the entire Great War from the beginning
Also to Indy, Go Astros!
Brilliant research and entertaning delivery. (Love your backdrop. Its amazing and evocative of the 40's) Thank you. Australia
Our team work very hard to ensure we get all the facts so thank you so much for this comment!
Episodes like this are fun watch!
Huge congrats on this episode; it's a brilliant one. The story of the captured Folgore paratrooper is probably my favourite single anecdote of the Second World War, and it's great to see it getting some more attention.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed this episode!
That's why all love Rommel "the desert fox"
Can we get another episode of this? I would love to hear these kinda of stories from different fronts.
This is a part of our ongoing gallery series! ua-cam.com/video/kzowgQCoo1s/v-deo.html
This was a good episode and a nice change from the horror of the pacific, china, and eastern European theatres