interesting topic. I used to hate infinite combo, I came from a playgroup that did not like or play combo at all, even counter magic. When I came into my new group, I saw all kinds of new playstyles I had no idea existed, and if I'm being honest I was frustrated at first, my decks were not built around the meta to properly deal with combo. That being said, over time I have grown as a player to accept these different styles and just laugh and praise them when they go off, they earned the win and no one stopped them. I still find it boring when someone combos off super early in the game because everyone else at the table has taken those turns building their board, and ramping. Even then, just shuffle up and start a new game. There's a quote I heard somewhere that has helped me too, "don't sit down to play magic, and expect to play a game of magic," because everyone has a different playstyle, deck, and ideas of what is fun to them. I like this series, I think it would be great to continue this series, maybe bringing on a guest occasionally to discuss with? A topic idea could be countermagic and/or steal effects. I know a lot of players have a problem with that, I used to be one of them until I adapted and found ways to play around it.
First, your quote is hilariously depressing ... I want to play magic when I sit down ... but you are right. Even in more competitive formats you have to be able to deal with the fact that you (or your opponent) might not draw any more spells for the rest of the game. I really like the idea of someone to argue with me about some of these topics. I'm not nearly popular enough for anyone notable to argue with me but maybe one day.
I myself am on the fence when it comes to infinite combos. On one hand if you have a combo in your 99 because it fits the synergy of the design and you happen to draw into all the pieces but sandbag them until the game has reached a stalemate so you end the game so a new one can start that's "ok." But on the other hand if your main way to win is to use a combo then perhaps you NEED to work on your deckbuilding skills. And before someone says "what's wrong with that," well when I build I put cards in that under normal circumstances I don't feel like it's a dead draw. But if you have a card that only works with 1 other card then deck design needs to be tweeted. For example, one guy in my play group had a Teferi deck where his win con was Knowledge Pool and his commander. The rest of his deck was counter spells, bounce spells, draw spells, and artifact search spells just to find 1 card.
To me I have a "Just War Theory" around EDH. I want my whole play group to all feel challenged, if something is busted we exploit it's weakness and brew on answers. It's rewarding to see that each player brought a good fight to the table and can feel rewarded for winning and inspired by losing to brew in more answers whilst maintaining the core of their deck. We did after-all build a deck to show it off.
Great topic. Very relevant to us all.Within my meta depending on whose home we're playing at, infinite combos can sometimes be limited to 3-5 triggers or going wild and doing your worst! The important thing is to try to communicate with your own meta about how they feel about it, never assume.
I can agree that when an infinite combo, especially one that can't be easily disrupted, can be frustrating. That's part of why the singular combo deck I've build has a very convoluted and hard to pull off combo requiring several cards and at least 15 mana available to me to get it going, while the deck has no way of generating infinite mana. I figure by the time I (in grixis colors) get to 15 mana, the game has gone on long enough that most people are okay with someone finishing off the game. And even then the last couple times I've tried to pull it off, my own lack of attention to detail, or miscounting what mana and tools I had available to me ended up meaning I attempted to pull off my combo only to stumble at the finish line and set myself up in a situation where I lose. And that, I think, has gone over better with the group than your typical combo decks, even for players that hate combo. It's a deck where if I attempt my combo and it fails, I've lost the game, but if it works I've won.
I have exactly one combo deck and play the same people regularly. However, I intentionally only play my combo deck about every 4-6 weeks with them so they forget what it does by the time I pull it out again. Also it has 4 different combos baked in, so they might know they're hitting a combo piece, but it might not be the combo I'm attempting to set up.
One thing my playgroup has started to do with our combo decks is to take out all of the tutoring effects, so we end up playing decks with higher variance, which ends up appealing to the Johnnys as well as the people who felt that the combos were getting oppressive. Plus we end up playing with cards that wouldn't normally be in the deck, but still have synergy and will often add another dimension that the deck didn't have before.
Maybe we can get a video on how Control, while perceived as antifun, is actually really good for a healthy group especially if combos are running rampant
Control in and of itself is not a bad thing, I don't think. It's when people go overboard and shut everyone else out of the game that it gets to be anti-fun. A good control player, in Commander, should be playing politically - shutting down hyperspeed combo and aggro players while lending assists to people they can backstab later but afford to help out now. All too often they go the Grand Arbiter or Leovold route though, completely shutting down the game for everyone but them, and non-interactive games remove the social aspect. It's extremely pedestrian to sit there doing nothing but drawing a card and playing a land, if that, while waiting for the game to end. (Most people just concede after two or three turns if I get Leovold's Puzzle Box active.) I do run Leovold as a control commander, but only against hyperspeed combo decks, and I acknowledge that I feel extremely dirty if I get the Puzzle Box lockdown or Villainous Wealth my opponents' entire decks. (Even limiting him to high-power combo players, Leovold's infamy leads to me being the target more often than not - I was once targeted because the two non-combo players wanted to "play the game," which I was certain to remind them ended up not happening anyway two turns after they killed me.)
Control does anything to stop combo from taking over in the long run, because the combo player has their own counterspells as well. Control can't consistently shut down combo, only if it were to evolve into Stax and ruin the fun for casual players as well. You simply can't put aggro and high power combo on the same table in EDH, because aggro can never reach the power level of combo due to the format's basic principles.
Like William said, if that works for you guys that's great. I would be unhappy if I couldn't play any combos so I'd stare him down and pull out my new Melira, Sylvok Outcast commander deck :D
Hello again Jumbo. Love your videos! I agree with your assessment of Commander. I feel the prominence of infinite combos/combo commanders is a natural competitive evolution based on the style of the format. I think the 40 starting life total makes aggro strategies very difficult. I also think Counterspells in Commander are bad, you are trading one of your cards for one of your opponents, and it is inherently card disadvantage. There is also the stigma that blue players with counters face - being targeted by the whole table because people hate having their spells countered. So the next logical step in deck construction is either Stax - shut your opponents down, or combo - win on the spot.... these are the two things CEDH players use and talk about all the time. Not sure how to fix it, although i propose we unleash aggro by using standard MTG starting life totals - 20 life. I think it would make aggro viable and punish combo players who ignore all other players by speeding up their clock. It would have the side benefit of making cards like serra ascendant fair. My two cents. Keep up the good work!
Great comment. I like the push/pull you described between combo and stax. I think there is some merit to the 20 life argument. Duel Commander (very popular in Europe) has 20 life. The new 1v1 format on MTGO will have 30 life. Once MTGO starts having games I think we will have a lot more data points so we can see if/how agrro fits into the format. My hope is that combo players can become the "archenemy" in 4 player games. Counterspells are a disadvantage in a multiplayer setting but imagine 3 players each spending one piece of disruption aimed at the 4th, combo, player. This has the combo player down three cards and the rest of the table down one. This is an imperfect system but with strong politics and a playgroup with open lines of communication I think they can be kept in check. I guess the commander version of aggro is infect. which is its own boogeyman. I personally enjoy the dynamic infect brings to a table and I don't think it's overpowered. I kinda want to see aggro cards have a home but then again I get to play efficient low drops in every other format. I might be willing to sacrifice my turn one goblin guides in commander for the ability to drop enter the infinite. Thanks for the well thought out comment. Cheers.
Good! This is why I will always ask in a new group what kind of decks they play, combo, powerlevel etc. Being in the luxury of having around 25 EDH decks I can always choose something that fits. Personally I prefer to play without infinite combo's/extra turns. The games tend to be more fun, layed-back. Politics is what EDH is about, not the "I want to win as fast as possible and as efficient/easy as possible.
Dude i had to share this. I love edh's fun factor and i ran into a super competitive play group. Playing with those guys made me so upset that i built a Grixis pure combo deck. The entire deck is combos but no one likes playing it including myself. It turns the game into a race of who can go infinite first.
My playgroup care less about infinite combo's because we care less about winning - we more dislike it when a game finishes too quickly since you now have to shuffle your edh deck up again, draw 7 cards, work out who goes first, etc. Longer games allow for a more political game, where you can make deals and temporary alliances to weaken the huge threats.Deals get broken and heat rises until everybody launches their nukes at each other, then we wait for the smoke to dissipate to see who's left standing in the crater that was once a battlefield
"Longer games allow for a more political game, where you can make deals and temporary alliances to weaken the huge threats.Deals get broken and heat rises until everybody launches their nukes at each other, then we wait for the smoke to dissipate to see who's left standing in the crater that was once a battlefield." I think you've just made the perfect definition for EDH, or at least what makes for a really entertaining game of EDH.
My playgroup back in Venezuela was a combo heavy group so everyone had lots of answers, and every single deck had blue on it to play counterspells... not the most fun group to some people.
Hey Jumbo Commander, I really appreciate your work to put together this video! My playgroup struggles with this dynamic because we have differing levels of experience and varying access to good cards. There’s also a difference in how people view “fun” with Magic. I like combos and my wife thinks it’s circumventing the normal avenues to victory. Besides the attitudes of the players and their interactions, I think the big thing that bugs us is extra turn spells. One of the more spikey players uses them and the rest of us suffer. Voicing our displeasure is difficult for reasons, but attempts have been made many times. It’d love to hear from you on extra turns and perhaps land destruction and why they aren’t fun. Perhaps even ways that you have been able to successfully handle difficult player interactions. Thanks again!
I know this group I used to be in banned tutors if you had a combo deck or a commander that shows you're obviously playing an infinite combo so you wouldn't find the pieces easily
Interesting. I think I would be ok with that if my tutors became pretty efficient draw spells instead ... maybe? "So that's not a tutor instead you can draw 2 cards for 2 mana that shares a color with the tutor." I would not be happy if someone just said your tutors are banned when I sat down.
I play with a couple of groups. One loves to play with combos, because you know it's all about the win. The other doesn't want to play them. I play the same deck in both groups, I just don't play the combos in the second group. Either way I have fun because I know what the expectations are for the group I'm playing with. If someone new joins, I hold back on the combos until I know their play style and adjust accordingly. As you said, the reason to play commander is to have fun. For me, if you're not there to have fun, go play modern or vintage.
Just food for thought, I have a play group that has described some of my decks as cancerous, but can be dealt with. What I am getting at is that I feel that my role tends to be one that pushes players to be better and think outside the box with their builds. To aid this practice I tend to ask the table whay they want to play against, so they have the autonomy to play against something they think will truly test their skill at the table and at the drawing board when designing a build.
Excellent video, great that you showed multiple views! Infinite combos aren't as scary or awful as many players make them out to be, similar to the stigma around infect, going up against these play styles make you a stronger player, and help refine your deck building to include flexibility and answers. I personally don't care much for them myself, but I do love beating them. When there is a newer commander player at the table I tend to help them out by playing sheriff against the more experienced combo players, which ends up making the game more fun for not only the new player but everyone else as well. Keep up the good work, I love your content, been bingeing for awhile now!
I like the idea of "playing sheriff" it actually shows other players that combo needs to be answered and that it is possible. I'm glad you like the content. Cheers
I usually run an infinite combo or two in my decks just in case the game starts to drag out. There have been many times where I've been able to combo out but I choose not to kill everyone right away. It's a great political move lol
I totally agree with you. In my playgroup we use a lot of diferent decks, even preconstructed deck so we can play diferent wais. If i playng against a new player I will not use Sage of hours in my Ezuri, claw of progres deck but in a competitive enviroment I definetly will.
In our playgroup, we limit the triggers of infinite combos to the number of lands you have in play. I think this works well as the combo become less effective in the early game but you allow it to become more powerful in the late game when it has dragged on for some time.
Very interesting. I like it. It does make some cycles more powerful than others for example a combo that gets you extra turns would be much more powerful than a combo that nets you some extra mana. I do like the fundamental principle though.
my playgroup has a point list where you can get points in a game for doing things and at the end of the month the player with the most points gets store credit and we discourage combos by making any infinite win the game combo by taking away points
Yeah there is a theme point where having a kind of commander gets you points this month is female commander. you get points for killing someone and more if you do it for exacts/commander damage. first to die gets a point. However you lose points if you kill someone before their turn 5 or take more than 2 extra turns. then each week there is a randomly generated objectives that get you a point each. these span from dealing the first combat damage to things like have a storm count of 10 and each week you get a point if you play a nonbasic land card from a few certain sets. oh and if you kill everyone at once with anything but mill or if you win with an alt wincon than you get the points for killing everyone but the game goes on without you.
we had that kind of thing at a commander tournament when 2015 came out. got to pods and some guy playing daretti took infinite turns and pined everyone to death with ghirapur aether grid before finding out he lost something like 150 points. earlier he tried to get his commander out with aether vial in the 1v1 part of the tourney and ended up getting 100% of his kills in 1v1 with triumph of the hordes like the dick he was. needless to say the strongest deck I had on me was my untuned rakdos deck that didn't have nearly as much fat colorless things or pointers that it does now xd
We've recently tried a house rule that says you can go infinite once and then subsequent games your combo stops after 10 iterations. It's not really come up so far though!
That sounds great. I'm a big fan of. "Awesome Combo! You should change decks because I don't think we have the tools to disrupt you." I hope your house rule goes well.
I love your open perspective on the game as a whole. You did a great job explaining why some people don't find combos fun but also broke down both perspectives when dealing with them. There's a thumbs up and subscription heading your way and I look forward to watching your other videos :)
One approach to Commander deckbuilding that really resonated with me is Jason Alt's "75%" rule (see his articles on gatheringmagic dot com). He basically says that deck should be able to win not every game, but around 75% of games agains simillar decks. to achieve this he doesn't take out all comboes, he just makes his decks less capable of achieving perfect consistency in each game or leaves some vulnerabilities in his game plan. I think this is great, especially if you leave in tools to combat spikes who come with a perfectly tuned high tide combo list. At the same time, you won't crush every new player's spider tribal deck. I like putting combos into my decks that are either not very consistent (multiple cards with not enough tutors) or not infinite (strong synergies that can do a lot of stuff, but have limits).
This is what what going through my head when I made that basketball try-hard analogy. (Clip from the show Happy Endings:ua-cam.com/video/DTYtihJJaf4/v-deo.html)
Thanks for the video, cause my victory felt hollow lately with my aminatou infinite combo. I've been debating if I should take it off. Now I'm finally convinced that I should well atleast most of the time. You are absolutely right, "I win game" in commander is no fun at all.
I struggle with the balance between fun and desire to win. While I love to win, I'm doing OK mentally if I can win about half the time, or close to it. Most people don't find fun in losing all the time. Part of how I've dealt with that topic is playing a casual deck so I go into each game knowing to have low expectations of the deck in the first place. If you go all in and invest $1000 dollars or more on a "meta" deck, you feel so committed to the deck/game that you feel the NEED to win. On the topic of infinite combos though, I hate that they exist. I'm just starting to get into Magic, but I've already seen so many blow out combos and infinite loops thats its kinda scary. An infinite combo is like watching your opponent play solitaire. I'm no longer interacting with them, and its literally just a waste of time watching them loop it enough times to either win, or make it impossible for me to win. But whatever I guess. lol
I don't mind infinite combos - I always run one or two as wincons in my "serious" decks. They always take multiple pieces and never run like clockwork though. I have Sanguine Bond / Exquisite Blood in Gonti. There's also the infinite Exsanguinate, full deck Bitter Ordeals, or just steal everyone else's entire deck - but "Bloodbond" requires two rather expensive enchantments, and the Ashnod's Altar / [Abhorrent Overlord / Myr Battlesphere] / Nim Deathmantle that fuels the other combos takes at least 3. (For infinite turns, 5 or 6.) Zada is mostly aggro, but under the right conditions being able to Banefire all three opponents for an upwards of 500m damage on turn 6 or so isn't shabby. It's mono Red anyway - not at all reliable, but tons of fun. Leovold runs Duskmantle Guildmage / Mindcrank and Cloudstone Curio / Aluren shenanigans, plus the standard Leovold package (Puzzle Box, Anvil of Bogardan, and Wheel effects) and targeted hate (i.e. Pithing Needle). I only pull him out against people I know to be speed blast instant killers, but unfortunately everyone else at the table doesn't treat it as a modified Archenemy game when they really should (if they've been at the LGS playing Commander for any length of time). [Note to self: Get the U/B shockland, G/B checkland, and all three fetchlands once MM17 drops their price.] Cf. 'walker Teferi, who grabs the Chain Veil and then he wins; or Yisan, who grabs a specific sequence of creatures and wins like clockwork on turn 5 or earlier, always with Craterhoof; or one of the many varieties of Paradox Engine / Aetherflux Reservoir combo decks that have hit the scene since AER. It gets pedestrian very quickly.
It sounds like you put a lot of work into making sure you have balanced combos in your decks to make them more resilient. This sounds great. Sometimes the game just needs to end. i bet your playgroup is pretty cool with this style and I bet they also include similar strategies?
I design my decks to be at a moderate power level - weak enough that they don't blow everyone out of the water without some luck, but powerful enough to at least contend with the obnoxiously high-powered players on a good day. You want games to last, but have enough power to end it if it drags overlong - nobody complains if you've been playing the game for an hour and everyone just wants it to end. As a fan of things like Sadistic Sacrament and Bitter Ordeal I know redundancy is very important, so I make sure to include at least one contingency. Relying on one combo is a recipe for disaster (or: Gonti steals someone's Sword of Feast and Famine, then he concedes when I play it because it was his only wincon). My problem isn't with combos, since I like running some myself. It's the overly consistent decks like Yisan and Arcum Dagsson I dislike, since said consistency largely circumvents the intended limitations of making decks singleton. Being hoofed and dying to some Paradox Engine nonsense for the hundredth time doesn't exactly make for a fun night, especially when you know the guy(s) you're playing against always do so. After another night at it, the ultimate problem is that some people only play competitive decks. The LGS I play at just does random tables and no house rules - the Commander ban list is in effect and it's anything goes beyond that. As such there tends to be an extreme power disparity that cannot be overcome without a significant amount of luck. Leovold's Puzzle Box lockdown is brutal, but it counts for nothing if I can't live long enough to pull it off (even with 5 tutors in my deck).
There are a lot of different ways and maybe others will like to share their favorites but I'll share one of each color that I really like to run. White: Eidolon of Rhetoric Blue: Time Stop Black: Sadistic Sacrament Red: Stranglehold Green: Krosan Grip
That said it depends on the combo some wont be counterable, as they can respond with the combo again unless its countered with something like split second and even then there are few combos which could be started up when the phases of turn changes. FYI If you run infinite i believe the official rules are you demonstrate it 3 times then you loop it. in my play group people announce it straight away to be kind but if you dont and people at your table arent familiar with the combo say DEN+ Palinchron but you spent all your mana to cast with only 2 left to do the flicker the official rules on going infinite could be what saves you the game
That's great. One thing you can do regardless of your deck is to communicate at the table. Play politics to let people know that this is really an archenemy game. This might open up new issues but table talk is a tool you can use against combos.
In all seven of my decks, there are two infinite combos. One is the Ezuri + Sage of Hours for my Infect deck. The other is the fair Krark Clan Ironworks + Salvaging Station + Flayer Husk combo, with Gemstone Array in there for the colors I may need in my Vial Smasher/Ludvic deck (hence forth referred to as The Deck of Many Things). None of them are really win conditions on their own. However, this is why I think ALL U/W/x decks need to run Azorius Guildmage and have some counter magic in the deck. AG protects from activated abilities for something like 2 and a blue.
Very good points you have there. My 2 cents for very frustrated players, facing combo decks are: Play more reactive cards, like counterspells. They are budget and get you out quite frequently.
My goal going into a game of Commander is usually "do what I find most interesting" or "maximum interactivity". Usually both. Winning is a consequence of playing well and circumstance to me in most games, not my goal. I want to complicate and make the game as entertaining as possible. Like when someone kicks a Comet Storm to kill everyone, or a removal spell on someone else's thing, and you either copy or redirect it to kill them/their own stuff. My local shop was having problems with Infinite combos for a bit, but I kept pushing people to add more flexibility and interaction until the problem dissolved. You can't Kiki-Zealous if half gets countered, or destroyed before the other enters play (or while the activation is on the stack for that matter). You want to win with combo, earn it. We make a distinction between decks containing infinite combos, and a deck designed to do them. The latter is usually still fine, it's just boring and unsatisfying if someone wins in the first 3-5 turns though. Also, Divine Intervention
I hate playing against those players with really spiky decks that kill me turn one or two. There are a few people at my locals like that and they make the experience really not as fun as it is when I'm playing a normal group. I'm fine with combos but I'm not fine with them winning the game so early before we can start to develop answers.
Well - that´s why I have many Decks with different wincons. Avacyn - nukes the board (can we call her infinite with Worldslayer?) Narset - only for the players with unfun decks: yay swing i have another turn...again Queen Marchesa - Pillowfort/Politic/Spite deck: the main goal is to manipulate other players to kill each other ^^ Atraxa - Superfriends (yes not very original) Kaseto - Snake Tribal, cause I REALLY LOVE SNAKES
That's my solution too! It looks like many of your decks have a little combo action to fall back on too. Does Brago have strionic resonator? (mine does :D) Does Karlov have Sanguine Bond + Exquisite blood? (Mine has this too ;)
In both Decks not this cards. But I will upgrade Brago with some cards today and i can have infinite mana with displacer and the untap drake xD The Blood - Bond Combo is something I could play, but I refuse to take them in.
So I have this Breya deck that I've been playing, and it's similar (but different tho) to Jumbo's deck. So, yesterday, there was this incredible game with five people playing all kinds of stuff. Nekusar, Meren, Kaalia, me (breya) and Arjun. The game was really back and forth, with removal being thrown everywhere (Damnations, overloaded Cyclonic rifts and the likes). In this game, I was drawing the pieces that let me get into a state where I could produce infinite mana using Pili-Pala, Ashnod's altar, Grand Architect etc., but had no outlet. The combo got disrupted and even further in the game, I was able to pickup Thopter Foundry. It all boiled down to me being able to create LOADS and LOADS of thopters (I called a stop at 2000000 thopters) and was able to destroy somebody with Tezz, Master of metals -3 ability. Later on, tried to attack with thopters but someone stopped me, rendering my attack useless and even wrath of god. So, ineviteble, I won using that (2 hours in the game at the moment) and someone who wasn't playing thought it was a cheesy way of winning. While the players didn't really mind, it kinda got me thinking if it wasn't really to overpowered or something, since once the pieces are there, you can go nuts. What are your thoughts on this?
The problem with the way Wizards of the Coast designs cards for Commander is that they encourage the use of infinite combos rather than trying to do the opposite which is why we need more abilities similar to Jester's Cap, Sadistic Sacrament, Stranglehold, Mindlock Orb, Aven Mindcensor, Denying Wind, Extract, etc. to help punish those who try to break the format and ruin it for everyone. Players shouldn't have to take up slots in their decks in order to deal with infinite combos which ends up hurting their main strategy in the long run but it is a given that just about every Commander deck runs plenty of board wipes, counterspells, and spot removal based on what they have available in their Commander's color identity since the format now is basically a race to see who goes infinite first or stops them from going infinite.
Maybe more cards that have different modes that could disrupt combos but still not be useless. For example Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Anafenza, the Foremost have been solid creatures and the little extra graveyard hate is really nice. Maybe some more flexibility like that?
Last Sunday I was playing a game of commander general where there where teams of three and the middle person was the general and there teammates on either side had to defend him. The general on the opposite team accidentally made an infinite mill combo with phenax and some other cards and after that game he had to leave and said he'd take out the card that made it possible and we had a good laugh that he didn't realize he had a combo
This is so relevant to me. My friend and i had a debate about infinite combos. They don't like the game to win out of no wheres. They think infinite combos are dumb with littler interactions. My argument was play around it. If you know someone has an infinite combo deck focus them. In a multiplayer game if no deck has any sort of removal or disruption i really cant feel sorry for you . I play in a few play groups with different opinions on infinite combos. The one play group at a card shop their game plan was target the player with the infinite combo. So me being that player i am not mad or anything. I find it even more challenging to be able to get my combo protect it at the same time SURVIVE. The other play group small group of friends straight out banned infinite combo which kinda makes me sad because i put so much effort into building a deck i just cant use because its "Unfun".
me and my play group are all relatively new to commander and you are where we have gotten our ideas for deck techs. I personally run breya, and you have the idea of ashnods altar and nim deathmantle. 1 of the 3 others hates that loop. He runs a loop with kydele and some cloak or something that produces infinite colorless mana. Because because i won, 1 time with my infinite, he's wanting us all to stop using infinites.
Hahah I began chaos in your playgroup. I'm secretly happy ... Communication is key but I have a few things that could help. You guys should all build a second deck. Make it CHEAP and make it a little lower in power level. This is a fun thought experiment and a pallet cleanser from the more serious games you have been playing. Another thing you could do ... buy your friend an FNM Krosan Grip ($6 TCG Mid) as a present to interrupt your combo. Something like that changes the tone of the playgroup. It moves from combative to collaborative. Good luck.
Thank you! It was exactly that question, which I couldn't give answer to: is it ok to use combos in EDH? So your point of view with explanation was really helpful :)
I have no problems with infinite combos. And i 100% agree with your philosophy about fun. What people sometimes seem to miss about infinite combos is that they (in casual EDH atleast) require build up/tutoring and rarely come completely out of nowwhere. And they are not the only instance of "i jsut win the game know" you can have in edh. If a token-heavy green deck drops Craterhoof Behemoth, that can most of the times mean this player is going to win the game on the spot, since having 15 creatures with atkleast 15/15 and trample equals lethal damage in most cases. What i look out for in EDH ist fostering a healthy play-environment for my group, because in my experience that is what leads to the most fun for everyone. Part of fostering that is not telling people what to play or how to play but rather show them that it is in their best interest that others are having fun too. Infinite combos are often powerful, but they are not unbeatable. The only problem with them is players unwilling to match their gameplan/dekc to the group and prioritise winning over the fun of the entire group.
I wanted to try and be slightly different with my Azami deck. Yes I do run MoM+Lab Maniac. But the majority of the time I win by ramping into Omniscience and casting enter the infinite off of it. I enjoy it a lot. As a general rule I only play my Azami deck (which can be insanely oppressive if I so wish) if there is no other mono blue deck at the table. I have been in that situation myself and there is nothing quite as draining as when you have to wait for two mono blue decks to take their turns.
I think if someone drops an infinite combo that the player who won just scoops and removes his/herself from the game while the rest can still play and fight for 2nd/3rd/4th. Divine intervention is the pinnacle of fun btw.
That guy pretending a pickup game up basket ball is the NBA who would never actually even attempt to get into the NBA is the perfect analogy for people who talk about cEDH being a) the real way EDH is meant to be played and b) that multiplayer cEDH is a legitimate competitive format. Look, if you wanted real competition you'd be playing a 1v1 sanctioned format tournament, or duel commander at the very least. I just hate people who play at false pretenses about what they do and why they do it. On the other hand, even players that want to play 'casual decks' (if it's not a tournament or play testing for a tournament it's casual, despite any cEDH player's delusions of grandeur protestations to the contrary. Power level can vary, it's still casual) need to make functional decks that have ways of interacting with each other and on the other hand should at least attempt to be a deck that can be interacted with to some extent. Otherwise everyone is just playing solitaire until something wins.
100% this, I couldn't have said it better myself. AI play a fair amount of what might be called cEDH, and I can guarantee you two things. A: Someone trying to define commander as a specific or "right" thing has no idea WTF they are talking about. The format was literally made to be a casual bash off between four friends, not 4 man legacy decks. Elitism in EDH is the most ironic thing I've ever seen, and it grated on me more than Chaos Norin Decks. B: cEDH is an illusion through and through. I've had obscenely mean decks get completely pasted them by Mill, Stompy and even Jank/Chaos decks because they ran cards no "real" EDH player ever would, and it was absolutely beautiful. The most hilarious part is that cEDH decks usually have builds and setups where they expect to play against other cutthroat commanders, and they're vulnerable to "conventional" decks because they will typically burnout very fast. They're also really not ready for a lot of the expensive cards (like 4 mana boardwipes) that are snubbed, and are totally screwed when blown out. C: Your avatar is outstanding and is now my phone's screensaver, thank you for sharing this with me.
When I was younger I tried to avoid these things because I thought it was really boring. However Nowadays I honestly think they're a brilliant to end a game that would otherwise turn into a 3 hour game. My concerns are more when people play Wraths that delay a game for a considerable amount of time... just cause. And I honestly try to avoid making games longer without the need to. Same goes for Stacks decks I understand that there's a point where that strategy is appropiate for stopping someone from winning turn 3 when everyone is stil developing.
Idea for a house rule.... "you can repeat a combo loop 10 times for every card in the combo" eg 20 untaps with vizier/druid mana combo (since it's a 2 card infinite combo). Thoughts?
I prided my self on my latest EDH Brew with (Ayli, Eternal pilgrim) as my Commander the deck is basically creature beat down with utility cards and board wipes the Ayli has cost of 1 white and 1 black mana and I can sack a creature pay w/b and 1 colourless to exile opponents target permanent! not a particularly over powered ability but still useful I think she is still a decent commander as her ability is fare. I decided to travel in to the city to my lgs and enjoy the EDH casual games they have available its a great way to meat new friends and interact with healthy sportsmanship and share ideas and Combos. Yet as my first game starts my opponent drops his commander on the table (Nivmizzet Firemind) And basicly i know I have a 5-6 turn clock, and sure enough I found my self land choked by T3, and as soon as my Opponent drops the enchantment (Curiosity) on Niv my opponent then explains to me that he can now Go infinite with Niv and the card draw as he deals 1 damage with each card draw BAM! At that moment something inside just broke the wheels just fell of and as I looked at my hand filled with Mythic Gas from GOD I realised how futile my efforts at EDH deck building actually were I mean against this 2 card Game ending combo i could do nothing, My opponent seeing I was a little dismayed offered me a rematch and I thought "Yes!! Revenge" and guess what LOL he pulls the same Combo off T5 via a tutor of some form and then shakes my hand!!. A small group had formed around our table and I couldn't help but zone in on the comments in support of my triumphant opponents Game breaking Combo!! "Easy win they chanted" and the smiles were plenty and at that second defeat I scooped my cards and with a smile I shook the dudes hand and congratulated him. On my trip home on the Bus i felt strangely depressed and at a loss as I scanned my card collection in my head to find anything that could stop and never allow such a Hosing to ever take place again and I guess that's why I am here!! great Vid thank you for sharing. I think I shall not play my own brews again at LGS stores as I realise that people want to WIN they pride there egos on it some more then others yet I enjoy the game its self i like to win but at the same time if my opponent out plays me that is some thing else, and I can sure appreciate another player out playing me that takes skill to out play a stranger you have never met before! so compared to a 2 card Game ending combo I can see the difference. thank's once again my 20 cents. 8)
Fun to me is making sure everyone has a fair chance at winning - or having epic battles before the win. My idea of commander fun is to see my decks work. I want to be creative; 50 per cent of my decks are theme or story based: Pagan, Greek Mythology, The Otherworld, Christianity and Morai. I even have a deck called Marchesa's Army, which sees the Queen allying with vampires and dragons to secure the throne. I want to tell a story ... And then someone decides to focus me dead.
all i gata say is 1: explain each step of the process 2: dont say sorry when you do it 3: please make it new (instead of fireball, used comet storm next time) or make it thematic n such
nice vide man, I have two main decks one with Samut and a couple of combos in turn 20 LOL so I have fun playing bcoz I'm not centerded in combo everyone, I'm just looking for fun attacking and be attacked , the other one is Marath with some combos , but there are turn 7-8 combos if possible so, we can afford to ramp, attack, do some good cards combinations , that's the way I like to play commander. but there are decks with almost instant combo, for me it's ok, shuffle your deck and star again ohhh and I like to see how the players prepare and do a combo, I've lose sometimes bcoz of that LOL.
I dunno, if I can play Divine Intervention and end the game I consider that a win. In Zedruu whether I flash it in before my turn with Paradox Haze on myself or I give it to someone else and make THEM tie the game it just feels good. Well, as good as anything else in a Zedruu deck, that is.
every playgroup has its own meta and rules but this is the rule of thumb I play by and it hasn't pissed anyone off yet. if my commander is involved in an infinite combo It needs to be atleast 3 cards. if it involves the 99 it can be 2 card but I still prefer to make it 3. anyone and their uncle can win with Kiki Jiki and zealous conscripts. how many have won with Tooth and Claw, Parallel Lives, and Blood Artist?
Solid rule of thumb. I have one more thing to add. Magic players, just because you have kiki and conscripts in your hand does not mean you need to cast them. I have an awesome combo-centric deck (ua-cam.com/video/-0fZQpZNIDc/v-deo.html) that can win with kiki or go infinite pretty easily but the perferred method of winning ... 4 biovisionaries :D so even if I could win through easier means the real goal of the deck is to Biovisionary people!
I run 8 persist cards (which are still less accessible than a commander in a command zone), 4 ways to turn off persist with either Melira or +1+1 counters, and 5 instant speed sac outlets, two of the combos create mana and need something like blood artist to kill with the combo alone, one mills, one makes a really BIG zombie, one tutors everyone's graveyards for their best creatures(if you run runescarred demon I get infinite tutors of my own deck), two of them give me infinite +1+1 counters to my whole board, one blows up nonland permanents, and one does direct damage. I built this deck to respond to other people's infinite deck, and it is consistent but the combo has different wincons nearly every game. Every combo requires at least 3 cards and none are the commander unless I switch to Ghave, which depends on ashnods altar to be part of the combo
A lot of commander decisions on decks can usually be defined by the people you play against/with. I play both online and in paper magic. The experiences are completely different. I usually know what to expect when playing with the people in my community as their playstyles are typically always the same. Online it can vary a lot more. Both have its advantages and disadvantages. Infinite combos unless dealt with just means to me, time for a new game and if it happens to consistently by that player, I will ultimately start to refuse to play against that deck. A lot of people despise combo, some despise mass land destruction, some despise counter magic. Some love peaceful coexistance, hug, Divine Intervention decks. I dislike green in edh cause I feel it is too resilient. But that is simply my opinion. TL:DR if you dont like the decks/players you are up against, dont play with them..simple. If you have no real choice because lack of player base...adapt.
I think I'm the sort of player this video is about. xD I enjoy two types of playstyles: Combo, or prison. Either really flashy or extremely slow. I do tend to stray away from infinite loops, though. I am okay with Paradox Engine + Mana Rocks creating infinite mana as long as you're not looping the same spell to make that mana (as in, actually cast your entire deck). I stray away from mass land destruction, but am okay with selective land destruction (Wildfire, Bend or Break). There certainly is something to be said about gauging the power level of your play group, but at the same time people need to learn to take losses as a learning opportunity. I have zero problems if people who play me often adjust their deck a bit to be able to answer my plays. 50% of the people in my playgroup *love* playing with artifacts (myself included). If the other 50% refuse to run any artifact removal and keep losing to artifact-based plays, that's their own fault. Commander has a massive cardpool to choose from. You can find a myriad of answers to certain strategies without diluting your deck theme or strategy. Also, if I owned a Divine Intervention, I would absolutely build a deck around it. :P
My problem is when decks win one way every time, in talking craterhoof, ad nauseum, tooth and nail, and the like. I prefer combos as a win condition that uses less card slots, but strive to make every game different
In my playgroup we don't play with the stupid rule that commanders can't get tucked. It helps a lot against decks that build around the commander to heavily :)
my friends and I don't have this problem, because our decks are only built for flavor. Like, yea, skullclamp would be nice in my faerie deck, but I don't play it for flavour reasons. Yes, my friends krenko deck would be better with lightning greaves, but that just doesn't fit the aesthetic. So it balances out. When we want to win, we play modern. For fun and flavor we play commander
Honestly, every deck every time period should have a way to disrupt combos. Period. The example in the video was Atogatog vs Hermit druid, right? Well... the atogatog player taps out.. or doesn't have grave hate.. or doesn't have removal.. or looks at hermit druid (assuming no haste involved) and leaves it in play.. ect. On top of commander begin a multiplayer format USUALLY consisting of 4 players (so 3 opponents for the hermit druid combo) where NO player had these things. I don't play infinite combos in my decks. My decks win with other equally stupid strategies. Grey merchant being recurred 6-7 times, elesh norn and sakashima, beastmasters ascension with Kebolds (all different decks, clearly) but each and every one of them has instant speed removal, grave hate, counterspells (if playing blue) or some way to shut off common combos, which if you notice are almost exclusively creature and graveyard based- occasionally artifact based but that is usually just a sac outlet. There is no reason you should't have answers to threats. It iis stupid. The no infinite combos mentality that people play with is the no-blue mentality. The idea that people don't like being punished for intentionally tapping out. What makes magic truly great, something one of the guys at my LGS said that I really enjoyed, is that in magic you can continue playing on your opponents turn. Not like pokemon TCG or yugioh (mostly) where you sit there and hope what you have already done was good enough to stop your opponent from outright winning. Not being able to respond is a choice you make when you make your deck, but being punished for it is perfectly acceptable. The reason I don't play infinite combos, by the way, has nothing to do with a dislike for them I don't mind losing to an infinite combo. I don't play them because I enjoy the challenge of finding a way to win against 3 other players without it. It is real challenging and it makes me want to pull my hair out when I play because i don't bother hiding that I am a threat.
And how did that work out for you? I also don't want to win via infinite combos, but with 3 players at the table who do try to do that, I'm unable to stop them all. Or have you found something generic that can stop combos? I'm building Rashmi, so it would have to be blue or green and can't be a "not more than one spell each turn" card.
my opinion on infinite combos is : use them as a wincondition in your deck. but don't center your deck around it. For example, I run a pretty succsessfull Kambhal and a pretty succsessfull Ghave deck. Both got infinite combos. But I do not tutor for them (except I am at the brink of losing, also I run exclusively diabolic tutor) and I focus my decks around other mechanics. Like this I can combo off once in a while and no one is like "oh, this shit again" like it happens with every narset deck out there. It's pretty boring of one at the table is simply just brainstorming and tutoring until he goes "okay, I do this, that and infinite turns/damage/mana"... you either end up focusing them down every game which is not particularly fun for them and for you (hating someone just because he might combo off even if he is short on mana right now or something feels bad) or you instantly quit the games when he arrives because you don't want to play 20 minutes and then watch him win for 10 mins. Also combo decks defeat the commander purpose imho. Commander is a singleton format and therefor, it should be variation in the games even if you're playing the same decks again and again. That doesnt mean the decks shouldn't be consistent - as I said my decks are succsessfull and in what they do pretty consistant - but you can have variation in these games. With Kambal I might tax everyone to the point I can kill them with Debt to the Deadless and the other game I simply get to 151 life and nuke the board with aetherflux reservoir. And the next game I run them over with diety of pride und Gisela/Bruna (melt or not) while controlling the board by spending all that life I gained for cardatvantage. I am talking about group play only because duel Commander in my eyes isn't really commander. 20hp is stupid and the format devolved to a 100 card singleton modern. Don't get me wrong, modern is fun. But when I want to play modern, I play modern.
Infinite combos are okay so long as you tell me they are allowed in your meta before I play. Or if you are the new person playing with a different playgroup you need to bring it up. Sometimes playing with someone who wins every turn 3 just isn't any fun for everyone else involved. Even worse than infinites are narset decks. I don't want to watch one player take 30 turns. It's ridiculously selfish and annoying.
I understand annoying 2 or 3 card combos that go infinite, but what about just storming off with a dozen different spells and not going infinite but just going off really hard? I mean where do we draw the line? If you combo off later in the game your opponent still won't like it. Should we just not play combo which is by far the best and easiest way to win an end match?
I'd take getting infinite combo'd on turn 5 over wasting my precious time at a table with a Gaddock Teeg, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Sen Triplets, etc any day of the week.
this is also a hot topic at our local lgs lately. we have had this commader league and it all kinda started with an azusa deck wich played eldrazi's on turn 2. wich kinda set the bar in a lot of peoples opinions. like there was a pricepull but it was supposed to be just for fun. and then there is this dude playing big eldrazi's to early and a lot of people took it a bit more serious because he did. that is why a lot of people grabbed there good combo decks to win. wich in a lot of peoples eyes was not fun anymore. so in the next league we will have annihalator and combo's will be banned. but i think you just have to set the tone from the beginning in your playgroup or something like a little event. is it competetive or casual just to avoid miscommunications and sad people.
a very important thing is, a lot of combos are just "game wining combo" but not necessarily infinite. e.g the Fire mind with untap, can draw the entire deck and deal far more than 40 damage to opponent/opponents, that combo is not infinite but still game winning, that is really fun.
niv mizzet decks like that are not much fun. this is how it goes draw spells for 6 turns straight niv mizzet curiosity (because with 6 turns of draw spells there is no way you don't have it) gameover. i don't see how that is fun for anyone.
Easy way to screw him over is making the Niv player deck themselves. There have been WAY too many times where I've played a Niv player that killed everyone except for one guy left due to not enough cards left in their deck to draw for damage and the one that survived beat out the "infinite" "Blue Sun's Zenith for 2?" Haha!
In my commander decks, I never include infinite combos or extra turns. I would be willing to include them in a meta that has lots of nuts stuff like utlra control, stax, and mass land destruction, combo-decks etc. My meta doesn't have that stuff, so I don't use it. I build decks of a variety of power levels. I try to make them all interactive. I don't wanna be that guy who is trying to minimize interaction to achieve some super board state and win. I wanna interact. Some decks have more control and some less, but swinging with creatures is interaction, as long as they don't have unblockable.
I play Control which, you reader may groan out and move on to the next comment, but I make it fun. I make deals with the other players and not just being an antifun jerk who kills everything they see. Most of the time, I let everything resolve, but when one person plays a super good card, about to when the game (say craterhoof) I say "table, I shall save everyone" and put my responses on the table. My deck is a police force of the table, and can be unfun if you are trying to win super fast and uncareful, or you can sneak your way past the guards (my deck) and snatch victory from behind. Those who make themselves noticable will be thwarted, those who are cunning, will succed Unless half your deck has the words "cant be countered" and "hexproof" on it
my one and only infinite combo. Omniscience + Tamiyo Emblem + Enter the Infinite. pretty good ehh? :P i run it in my riku deck. infinite whatever i want, and only 2 cards in the game can stop me after the combo goes off (both have split second so i cant counter them).
my friend and i had this discussion the other day. another point to make is, if you say no infinte combos, you are taking away a part of someones deck. are you going to tell the blue player no counterspells? how about the green player no creatures?
Hey is playing infi combos that are super bad ((Ie chances are low)) Really that bad? I have a jodah deck where all i try to go is infinite people know when im close or when im not.
We have a few guys at my shop who simply can not handle being combo'd out. They'll stomp and whine that it's too unfair and use other vulgar language to describe the players who combo'd. I tend to avoid playing with them unless I wanna win packs... lol.
Stebin ActingDa'Mickey Yeah Im still trying to train myself to not get mad when my friend combos out. My meat is actually in the process of shifting to a more competitive commander environment where decks like Tasigur or Jace run rampant. While fun, it can be frustrating. It personally makes it worse when you combine hard core, shut everyone out, draw a million cards control with the combo (weird coming from a live long control fan)
There's someone I know at my store like that too.... sad part is he's 40, and has children. You'd think he'd know to show a better example of how to be a gracious loser. I try not to play with him either at this point, especially since he claims his instant win plays are fair when mine are not.
firestormpiccolo I mean I don't hate infinite combos unless they're ones like that xd, I'm fine with it if I die on the spot because we can start a new game but if you have to draw halfway into your deck and take 30+ turns is just not as fun
I don't consider anything over 4 card combos to be powerful. that's just me. but yes..when I see a general that only needs 1 card to combo off I think "great, should be a fun 10 min edh game. oh, should, sh-should I even shuffle?"
I'm just starting to play EDH, I have bought my first deck and am due to play my first game next week. I was very excited about this. But I have now found out that the other players are playing infinite combos. I'm now angry and no longer excited. I wanted a long fun game with in depth strategy but its just gonna be who can race to their combo fastest.
Do you know what combos they play? Maybe everyone can give you some specific advice. Also consider this, if they regularly play together they should have disruption for each others combo. You can still have a long competitive game!
thanks for the reply. I'm not sure what combos exactly but his commander is niv mizzet and he said he has 3 dif combos that are not technically infinite but are limited only by the number of cards in his library. I think they involve artifacts. I'm playing a meren deck and have cards like reclaimation sage and caustic caterpillar to deal with the combo. Its just annoying cos of what you said in the video, when I organised the game and bought my deck my expectation was that in a casual format people would not just be trying to combo off to finish each other off. What is the point of having 40 life if that is the case. I'm just disappointed that they built their decks like that knowing it would be my first EDH game. Knowing the guy I should have realised tho, he can't do casual - he always wants to play whats optimal for winning quickest. Oh well, I'm hoping that now I'm dread it that it won't be as bad as I expect. Also I'm sure there must be other people in my town who play EDH who would agree not to play infinite combos. I face enough of that in modern!!! I'm playing EDH to get away from that kind of MTG! BTW I actually get on with the guy well, hes alright. Its just not what I wanted from the format at all! I'm now thinking of adding more oppressive cards to my deck to hate on his strategy and cripple his deck. Cards like smokestack and maybe even winter orb. I would never have added those before but now I'm annoyed.
Just normal removal can interrupt Niv-Mizzet. You are looking for Curiosity, Ophidian Eye, and Tandem Lookout. When he casts them kill his general in response. When I see a niv mizzet deck I am actually expecting these three cards. This in a pretty "fair" two card combo so I would not worry too much about it. I'd say keep an open mind and have some fun just make sure you have some instant speed creature removal so you can keep the game going. good luck!
yeah hopefully it'll be good. the only card I really wanted that I'm missing is attrition which would have been good for dealing with him. I'll get it soon tho. I'm not actually running that much removal because most of my removal is creature and anchantment based like merciless executioner, fleshbag marauder, dictate of erebos. Thanks for telling me what cards to look out for, thats really useful. what is a good removal I could run for dealing with Niv Mizzet? Victim of Night??
interesting topic. I used to hate infinite combo, I came from a playgroup that did not like or play combo at all, even counter magic. When I came into my new group, I saw all kinds of new playstyles I had no idea existed, and if I'm being honest I was frustrated at first, my decks were not built around the meta to properly deal with combo. That being said, over time I have grown as a player to accept these different styles and just laugh and praise them when they go off, they earned the win and no one stopped them. I still find it boring when someone combos off super early in the game because everyone else at the table has taken those turns building their board, and ramping. Even then, just shuffle up and start a new game. There's a quote I heard somewhere that has helped me too, "don't sit down to play magic, and expect to play a game of magic," because everyone has a different playstyle, deck, and ideas of what is fun to them.
I like this series, I think it would be great to continue this series, maybe bringing on a guest occasionally to discuss with? A topic idea could be countermagic and/or steal effects. I know a lot of players have a problem with that, I used to be one of them until I adapted and found ways to play around it.
First, your quote is hilariously depressing ... I want to play magic when I sit down ... but you are right. Even in more competitive formats you have to be able to deal with the fact that you (or your opponent) might not draw any more spells for the rest of the game. I really like the idea of someone to argue with me about some of these topics. I'm not nearly popular enough for anyone notable to argue with me but maybe one day.
Jumbo Commander nah, fuck that.
That quote is beyond perfect. Do you know the source?
I myself am on the fence when it comes to infinite combos. On one hand if you have a combo in your 99 because it fits the synergy of the design and you happen to draw into all the pieces but sandbag them until the game has reached a stalemate so you end the game so a new one can start that's "ok." But on the other hand if your main way to win is to use a combo then perhaps you NEED to work on your deckbuilding skills. And before someone says "what's wrong with that," well when I build I put cards in that under normal circumstances I don't feel like it's a dead draw. But if you have a card that only works with 1 other card then deck design needs to be tweeted. For example, one guy in my play group had a Teferi deck where his win con was Knowledge Pool and his commander. The rest of his deck was counter spells, bounce spells, draw spells, and artifact search spells just to find 1 card.
I feel the same
To me I have a "Just War Theory" around EDH. I want my whole play group to all feel challenged, if something is busted we exploit it's weakness and brew on answers. It's rewarding to see that each player brought a good fight to the table and can feel rewarded for winning and inspired by losing to brew in more answers whilst maintaining the core of their deck. We did after-all build a deck to show it off.
Great topic. Very relevant to us all.Within my meta depending on whose home we're playing at, infinite combos can sometimes be limited to 3-5 triggers or going wild and doing your worst! The important thing is to try to communicate with your own meta about how they feel about it, never assume.
This ^. Social contract is really the jam so with any given group try and get expectations on the table so you can all have fun. :)
Destroying noobs is not something funny, destroying experienced friends with an infinite-topdeck-comeback-combo is hilariously funny
I agree. I do get bored destroying them the same way every time which can happen in combo decks.
Bronze Vulpes literally first live game night ever I lost 6 out of 7 ...4 were to infinites..
I can agree that when an infinite combo, especially one that can't be easily disrupted, can be frustrating.
That's part of why the singular combo deck I've build has a very convoluted and hard to pull off combo requiring several cards and at least 15 mana available to me to get it going, while the deck has no way of generating infinite mana. I figure by the time I (in grixis colors) get to 15 mana, the game has gone on long enough that most people are okay with someone finishing off the game. And even then the last couple times I've tried to pull it off, my own lack of attention to detail, or miscounting what mana and tools I had available to me ended up meaning I attempted to pull off my combo only to stumble at the finish line and set myself up in a situation where I lose. And that, I think, has gone over better with the group than your typical combo decks, even for players that hate combo. It's a deck where if I attempt my combo and it fails, I've lost the game, but if it works I've won.
having used combos for a long time i can tell you they the easiest strategy to disrupt in magic. especially if you play the same people over and over.
I have exactly one combo deck and play the same people regularly. However, I intentionally only play my combo deck about every 4-6 weeks with them so they forget what it does by the time I pull it out again. Also it has 4 different combos baked in, so they might know they're hitting a combo piece, but it might not be the combo I'm attempting to set up.
One thing my playgroup has started to do with our combo decks is to take out all of the tutoring effects, so we end up playing decks with higher variance, which ends up appealing to the Johnnys as well as the people who felt that the combos were getting oppressive. Plus we end up playing with cards that wouldn't normally be in the deck, but still have synergy and will often add another dimension that the deck didn't have before.
+continuechaos that's fun if it's an understanding in your playgroup.
Maybe we can get a video on how Control, while perceived as antifun, is actually really good for a healthy group especially if combos are running rampant
Interesting concept. I might make a video on how different types of decks make a healthy metagame but I'd need to think, research,m etc. Thanks
Control in and of itself is not a bad thing, I don't think. It's when people go overboard and shut everyone else out of the game that it gets to be anti-fun.
A good control player, in Commander, should be playing politically - shutting down hyperspeed combo and aggro players while lending assists to people they can backstab later but afford to help out now. All too often they go the Grand Arbiter or Leovold route though, completely shutting down the game for everyone but them, and non-interactive games remove the social aspect. It's extremely pedestrian to sit there doing nothing but drawing a card and playing a land, if that, while waiting for the game to end. (Most people just concede after two or three turns if I get Leovold's Puzzle Box active.)
I do run Leovold as a control commander, but only against hyperspeed combo decks, and I acknowledge that I feel extremely dirty if I get the Puzzle Box lockdown or Villainous Wealth my opponents' entire decks. (Even limiting him to high-power combo players, Leovold's infamy leads to me being the target more often than not - I was once targeted because the two non-combo players wanted to "play the game," which I was certain to remind them ended up not happening anyway two turns after they killed me.)
RIP Leovold
George Bauser I agree with you which is why many believe the Tasigur is one of the top tier control commanders as its literally like "Help me help you
Control does anything to stop combo from taking over in the long run, because the combo player has their own counterspells as well. Control can't consistently shut down combo, only if it were to evolve into Stax and ruin the fun for casual players as well.
You simply can't put aggro and high power combo on the same table in EDH, because aggro can never reach the power level of combo due to the format's basic principles.
we don't play infinite combos in my play group because if we do this one guy busts out his infect deck and suicides into you
Jacob Bretzin ah self policing that's the good thing about commander :)
Like William said, if that works for you guys that's great. I would be unhappy if I couldn't play any combos so I'd stare him down and pull out my new Melira, Sylvok Outcast commander deck :D
Jumbo Commander ok sir that comment made me laugh lol also could do that command I've never understood her
i have a turn 5 glissa infect deck for this very purpose, to discourage tryhard decks
pull out saskia and one shot them with putrefax XD
Hello again Jumbo. Love your videos!
I agree with your assessment of Commander. I feel the prominence of infinite combos/combo commanders is a natural competitive evolution based on the style of the format.
I think the 40 starting life total makes aggro strategies very difficult. I also think Counterspells in Commander are bad, you are trading one of your cards for one of your opponents, and it is inherently card disadvantage. There is also the stigma that blue players with counters face - being targeted by the whole table because people hate having their spells countered.
So the next logical step in deck construction is either Stax - shut your opponents down, or combo - win on the spot.... these are the two things CEDH players use and talk about all the time.
Not sure how to fix it, although i propose we unleash aggro by using standard MTG starting life totals - 20 life. I think it would make aggro viable and punish combo players who ignore all other players by speeding up their clock. It would have the side benefit of making cards like serra ascendant fair.
My two cents. Keep up the good work!
Great comment. I like the push/pull you described between combo and stax. I think there is some merit to the 20 life argument. Duel Commander (very popular in Europe) has 20 life. The new 1v1 format on MTGO will have 30 life. Once MTGO starts having games I think we will have a lot more data points so we can see if/how agrro fits into the format.
My hope is that combo players can become the "archenemy" in 4 player games. Counterspells are a disadvantage in a multiplayer setting but imagine 3 players each spending one piece of disruption aimed at the 4th, combo, player. This has the combo player down three cards and the rest of the table down one. This is an imperfect system but with strong politics and a playgroup with open lines of communication I think they can be kept in check.
I guess the commander version of aggro is infect. which is its own boogeyman. I personally enjoy the dynamic infect brings to a table and I don't think it's overpowered. I kinda want to see aggro cards have a home but then again I get to play efficient low drops in every other format. I might be willing to sacrifice my turn one goblin guides in commander for the ability to drop enter the infinite.
Thanks for the well thought out comment. Cheers.
I play commander for the stories, like when someone does a crazy play nobody saw coming.
really good video thanks for tackling the sensitive issues
Thanks! Glad you liked it.
Good! This is why I will always ask in a new group what kind of decks they play, combo, powerlevel etc.
Being in the luxury of having around 25 EDH decks I can always choose something that fits.
Personally I prefer to play without infinite combo's/extra turns. The games tend to be more fun, layed-back.
Politics is what EDH is about, not the "I want to win as fast as possible and as efficient/easy as possible.
Final fortune is the only extra turn card I appreciate someone playing XD
Dude i had to share this. I love edh's fun factor and i ran into a super competitive play group. Playing with those guys made me so upset that i built a Grixis pure combo deck. The entire deck is combos but no one likes playing it including myself. It turns the game into a race of who can go infinite first.
did everyone tone their play down after that or are you still in like a combo cold war?
D Watson Usually when a player wins with their combo at one point of the night, they change decks. Or nah?
My playgroup care less about infinite combo's because we care less about winning - we more dislike it when a game finishes too quickly since you now have to shuffle your edh deck up again, draw 7 cards, work out who goes first, etc. Longer games allow for a more political game, where you can make deals and temporary alliances to weaken the huge threats.Deals get broken and heat rises until everybody launches their nukes at each other, then we wait for the smoke to dissipate to see who's left standing in the crater that was once a battlefield
"Longer games allow for a more political game, where you can make deals and temporary alliances to weaken the huge threats.Deals get broken and heat rises until everybody launches their nukes at each other, then we wait for the smoke to dissipate to see who's left standing in the crater that was once a battlefield."
I think you've just made the perfect definition for EDH, or at least what makes for a really entertaining game of EDH.
My playgroup back in Venezuela was a combo heavy group so everyone had lots of answers, and every single deck had blue on it to play counterspells... not the most fun group to some people.
But did you think it was fun?
Jumbo Commander best playgroup ever
Hey Jumbo Commander, I really appreciate your work to put together this video! My playgroup struggles with this dynamic because we have differing levels of experience and varying access to good cards. There’s also a difference in how people view “fun” with Magic. I like combos and my wife thinks it’s circumventing the normal avenues to victory. Besides the attitudes of the players and their interactions, I think the big thing that bugs us is extra turn spells. One of the more spikey players uses them and the rest of us suffer. Voicing our displeasure is difficult for reasons, but attempts have been made many times. It’d love to hear from you on extra turns and perhaps land destruction and why they aren’t fun. Perhaps even ways that you have been able to successfully handle difficult player interactions. Thanks again!
Like Ashnod's Altar, Dread Wanderer, Embalmer's Tools, and Initiates of the Ebon Hand. Infinite enter and leave the battlefield triggers.
I know this group I used to be in banned tutors if you had a combo deck or a commander that shows you're obviously playing an infinite combo so you wouldn't find the pieces easily
trexzilla Tutors are great but not fifty of them.
Interesting. I think I would be ok with that if my tutors became pretty efficient draw spells instead ... maybe? "So that's not a tutor instead you can draw 2 cards for 2 mana that shares a color with the tutor." I would not be happy if someone just said your tutors are banned when I sat down.
Whats next? Are they gonna ban evolving wilds next? Its too much to be able to tutor a basic land. Lmao
I play with a couple of groups. One loves to play with combos, because you know it's all about the win. The other doesn't want to play them. I play the same deck in both groups, I just don't play the combos in the second group. Either way I have fun because I know what the expectations are for the group I'm playing with. If someone new joins, I hold back on the combos until I know their play style and adjust accordingly. As you said, the reason to play commander is to have fun. For me, if you're not there to have fun, go play modern or vintage.
Just food for thought, I have a play group that has described some of my decks as cancerous, but can be dealt with. What I am getting at is that I feel that my role tends to be one that pushes players to be better and think outside the box with their builds. To aid this practice I tend to ask the table whay they want to play against, so they have the autonomy to play against something they think will truly test their skill at the table and at the drawing board when designing a build.
interesting and interactive game-play, lots of variety
I love using Jester's Cap to break important combo pieces. hahaha
Excellent video, great that you showed multiple views! Infinite combos aren't as scary or awful as many players make them out to be, similar to the stigma around infect, going up against these play styles make you a stronger player, and help refine your deck building to include flexibility and answers. I personally don't care much for them myself, but I do love beating them. When there is a newer commander player at the table I tend to help them out by playing sheriff against the more experienced combo players, which ends up making the game more fun for not only the new player but everyone else as well. Keep up the good work, I love your content, been bingeing for awhile now!
I like the idea of "playing sheriff" it actually shows other players that combo needs to be answered and that it is possible. I'm glad you like the content. Cheers
I usually run an infinite combo or two in my decks just in case the game starts to drag out. There have been many times where I've been able to combo out but I choose not to kill everyone right away. It's a great political move lol
I totally agree with you. In my playgroup we use a lot of diferent decks, even preconstructed deck so we can play diferent wais. If i playng against a new player I will not use Sage of hours in my Ezuri, claw of progres deck but in a competitive enviroment I definetly will.
In our playgroup, we limit the triggers of infinite combos to the number of lands you have in play. I think this works well as the combo become less effective in the early game but you allow it to become more powerful in the late game when it has dragged on for some time.
I like that rule. I feel it would make one player land wipe more of a thing in my meta tho.
Very interesting. I like it. It does make some cycles more powerful than others for example a combo that gets you extra turns would be much more powerful than a combo that nets you some extra mana. I do like the fundamental principle though.
my playgroup has a point list where you can get points in a game for doing things and at the end of the month the player with the most points gets store credit and we discourage combos by making any infinite win the game combo by taking away points
Pedro Da moth That's a good way with dealing with combos.
That sounds fun. Are there other ways to get points other than winning?
Yeah there is a theme point where having a kind of commander gets you points this month is female commander. you get points for killing someone and more if you do it for exacts/commander damage. first to die gets a point. However you lose points if you kill someone before their turn 5 or take more than 2 extra turns. then each week there is a randomly generated objectives that get you a point each. these span from dealing the first combat damage to things like have a storm count of 10 and each week you get a point if you play a nonbasic land card from a few certain sets. oh and if you kill everyone at once with anything but mill or if you win with an alt wincon than you get the points for killing everyone but the game goes on without you.
That's so cool. I love your theme for this month!
we had that kind of thing at a commander tournament when 2015 came out. got to pods and some guy playing daretti took infinite turns and pined everyone to death with ghirapur aether grid before finding out he lost something like 150 points. earlier he tried to get his commander out with aether vial in the 1v1 part of the tourney and ended up getting 100% of his kills in 1v1 with triumph of the hordes like the dick he was. needless to say the strongest deck I had on me was my untuned rakdos deck that didn't have nearly as much fat colorless things or pointers that it does now xd
We've recently tried a house rule that says you can go infinite once and then subsequent games your combo stops after 10 iterations. It's not really come up so far though!
That sounds great. I'm a big fan of. "Awesome Combo! You should change decks because I don't think we have the tools to disrupt you." I hope your house rule goes well.
I love your open perspective on the game as a whole. You did a great job explaining why some people don't find combos fun but also broke down both perspectives when dealing with them. There's a thumbs up and subscription heading your way and I look forward to watching your other videos :)
One approach to Commander deckbuilding that really resonated with me is Jason Alt's "75%" rule (see his articles on gatheringmagic dot com).
He basically says that deck should be able to win not every game, but around 75% of games agains simillar decks. to achieve this he doesn't take out all comboes, he just makes his decks less capable of achieving perfect consistency in each game or leaves some vulnerabilities in his game plan.
I think this is great, especially if you leave in tools to combat spikes who come with a perfectly tuned high tide combo list. At the same time, you won't crush every new player's spider tribal deck.
I like putting combos into my decks that are either not very consistent (multiple cards with not enough tutors) or not infinite (strong synergies that can do a lot of stuff, but have limits).
I love the 75% rule. I almost always pick the fun card over the more powerful card ... it always seems to be more fun :)
Best cards to stop infinite combos:
-Time Stop
-Mana Tithe (out of nowhere in a non-blue deck)
This is what what going through my head when I made that basketball try-hard analogy. (Clip from the show Happy Endings:ua-cam.com/video/DTYtihJJaf4/v-deo.html)
Thanks for the video, cause my victory felt hollow lately with my aminatou infinite combo. I've been debating if I should take it off. Now I'm finally convinced that I should well atleast most of the time. You are absolutely right, "I win game" in commander is no fun at all.
I struggle with the balance between fun and desire to win. While I love to win, I'm doing OK mentally if I can win about half the time, or close to it. Most people don't find fun in losing all the time.
Part of how I've dealt with that topic is playing a casual deck so I go into each game knowing to have low expectations of the deck in the first place.
If you go all in and invest $1000 dollars or more on a "meta" deck, you feel so committed to the deck/game that you feel the NEED to win.
On the topic of infinite combos though, I hate that they exist. I'm just starting to get into Magic, but I've already seen so many blow out combos and infinite loops thats its kinda scary.
An infinite combo is like watching your opponent play solitaire. I'm no longer interacting with them, and its literally just a waste of time watching them loop it enough times to either win, or make it impossible for me to win.
But whatever I guess. lol
I don't mind infinite combos - I always run one or two as wincons in my "serious" decks. They always take multiple pieces and never run like clockwork though.
I have Sanguine Bond / Exquisite Blood in Gonti. There's also the infinite Exsanguinate, full deck Bitter Ordeals, or just steal everyone else's entire deck - but "Bloodbond" requires two rather expensive enchantments, and the Ashnod's Altar / [Abhorrent Overlord / Myr Battlesphere] / Nim Deathmantle that fuels the other combos takes at least 3. (For infinite turns, 5 or 6.)
Zada is mostly aggro, but under the right conditions being able to Banefire all three opponents for an upwards of 500m damage on turn 6 or so isn't shabby. It's mono Red anyway - not at all reliable, but tons of fun.
Leovold runs Duskmantle Guildmage / Mindcrank and Cloudstone Curio / Aluren shenanigans, plus the standard Leovold package (Puzzle Box, Anvil of Bogardan, and Wheel effects) and targeted hate (i.e. Pithing Needle). I only pull him out against people I know to be speed blast instant killers, but unfortunately everyone else at the table doesn't treat it as a modified Archenemy game when they really should (if they've been at the LGS playing Commander for any length of time). [Note to self: Get the U/B shockland, G/B checkland, and all three fetchlands once MM17 drops their price.]
Cf. 'walker Teferi, who grabs the Chain Veil and then he wins; or Yisan, who grabs a specific sequence of creatures and wins like clockwork on turn 5 or earlier, always with Craterhoof; or one of the many varieties of Paradox Engine / Aetherflux Reservoir combo decks that have hit the scene since AER. It gets pedestrian very quickly.
It sounds like you put a lot of work into making sure you have balanced combos in your decks to make them more resilient. This sounds great. Sometimes the game just needs to end. i bet your playgroup is pretty cool with this style and I bet they also include similar strategies?
I design my decks to be at a moderate power level - weak enough that they don't blow everyone out of the water without some luck, but powerful enough to at least contend with the obnoxiously high-powered players on a good day. You want games to last, but have enough power to end it if it drags overlong - nobody complains if you've been playing the game for an hour and everyone just wants it to end.
As a fan of things like Sadistic Sacrament and Bitter Ordeal I know redundancy is very important, so I make sure to include at least one contingency. Relying on one combo is a recipe for disaster (or: Gonti steals someone's Sword of Feast and Famine, then he concedes when I play it because it was his only wincon).
My problem isn't with combos, since I like running some myself. It's the overly consistent decks like Yisan and Arcum Dagsson I dislike, since said consistency largely circumvents the intended limitations of making decks singleton. Being hoofed and dying to some Paradox Engine nonsense for the hundredth time doesn't exactly make for a fun night, especially when you know the guy(s) you're playing against always do so.
After another night at it, the ultimate problem is that some people only play competitive decks. The LGS I play at just does random tables and no house rules - the Commander ban list is in effect and it's anything goes beyond that. As such there tends to be an extreme power disparity that cannot be overcome without a significant amount of luck. Leovold's Puzzle Box lockdown is brutal, but it counts for nothing if I can't live long enough to pull it off (even with 5 tutors in my deck).
my idea of fun is playing warp world and scrambleverse
I approve :D however my favorite fun card is knowledge pool such a fun card in multiplayer :D
Completely agree, but what are some ways to stop infinite combos from happening? Other than demonic tutor + utter end?
There are a lot of different ways and maybe others will like to share their favorites but I'll share one of each color that I really like to run.
White: Eidolon of Rhetoric
Blue: Time Stop
Black: Sadistic Sacrament
Red: Stranglehold
Green: Krosan Grip
That said it depends on the combo some wont be counterable, as they can respond with the combo again unless its countered with something like split second and even then there are few combos which could be started up when the phases of turn changes.
FYI If you run infinite i believe the official rules are you demonstrate it 3 times then you loop it. in my play group people announce it straight away to be kind but if you dont and people at your table arent familiar with the combo say DEN+ Palinchron but you spent all your mana to cast with only 2 left to do the flicker the official rules on going infinite could be what saves you the game
If you don't like combos then disrupt them on every step, remind others what is happening. Play Counterspell, Bojuka Bog, Krosan Grip, challenge them.
That's great. One thing you can do regardless of your deck is to communicate at the table. Play politics to let people know that this is really an archenemy game. This might open up new issues but table talk is a tool you can use against combos.
In all seven of my decks, there are two infinite combos.
One is the Ezuri + Sage of Hours for my Infect deck.
The other is the fair Krark Clan Ironworks + Salvaging Station + Flayer Husk combo, with Gemstone Array in there for the colors I may need in my Vial Smasher/Ludvic deck (hence forth referred to as The Deck of Many Things).
None of them are really win conditions on their own.
However, this is why I think ALL U/W/x decks need to run Azorius Guildmage and have some counter magic in the deck. AG protects from activated abilities for something like 2 and a blue.
I think that's a nice little selection of combo. Not too heavy but some fun inclusions.
Very good points you have there. My 2 cents for very frustrated players, facing combo decks are: Play more reactive cards, like counterspells. They are budget and get you out quite frequently.
My goal going into a game of Commander is usually "do what I find most interesting" or "maximum interactivity". Usually both. Winning is a consequence of playing well and circumstance to me in most games, not my goal. I want to complicate and make the game as entertaining as possible. Like when someone kicks a Comet Storm to kill everyone, or a removal spell on someone else's thing, and you either copy or redirect it to kill them/their own stuff.
My local shop was having problems with Infinite combos for a bit, but I kept pushing people to add more flexibility and interaction until the problem dissolved. You can't Kiki-Zealous if half gets countered, or destroyed before the other enters play (or while the activation is on the stack for that matter). You want to win with combo, earn it. We make a distinction between decks containing infinite combos, and a deck designed to do them. The latter is usually still fine, it's just boring and unsatisfying if someone wins in the first 3-5 turns though.
Also, Divine Intervention
I hate playing against those players with really spiky decks that kill me turn one or two. There are a few people at my locals like that and they make the experience really not as fun as it is when I'm playing a normal group. I'm fine with combos but I'm not fine with them winning the game so early before we can start to develop answers.
Well - that´s why I have many Decks with different wincons.
Avacyn - nukes the board (can we call her infinite with Worldslayer?)
Narset - only for the players with unfun decks: yay swing i have another turn...again
Queen Marchesa - Pillowfort/Politic/Spite deck: the main goal is to manipulate other players to kill each other ^^
Atraxa - Superfriends (yes not very original)
Kaseto - Snake Tribal, cause I REALLY LOVE SNAKES
That's my solution too! It looks like many of your decks have a little combo action to fall back on too. Does Brago have strionic resonator? (mine does :D) Does Karlov have Sanguine Bond + Exquisite blood? (Mine has this too ;)
In both Decks not this cards.
But I will upgrade Brago with some cards today and i can have infinite mana with displacer and the untap drake xD
The Blood - Bond Combo is something I could play, but I refuse to take them in.
So I have this Breya deck that I've been playing, and it's similar (but different tho) to Jumbo's deck. So, yesterday, there was this incredible game with five people playing all kinds of stuff. Nekusar, Meren, Kaalia, me (breya) and Arjun. The game was really back and forth, with removal being thrown everywhere (Damnations, overloaded Cyclonic rifts and the likes). In this game, I was drawing the pieces that let me get into a state where I could produce infinite mana using Pili-Pala, Ashnod's altar, Grand Architect etc., but had no outlet. The combo got disrupted and even further in the game, I was able to pickup Thopter Foundry. It all boiled down to me being able to create LOADS and LOADS of thopters (I called a stop at 2000000 thopters) and was able to destroy somebody with Tezz, Master of metals -3 ability. Later on, tried to attack with thopters but someone stopped me, rendering my attack useless and even wrath of god. So, ineviteble, I won using that (2 hours in the game at the moment) and someone who wasn't playing thought it was a cheesy way of winning. While the players didn't really mind, it kinda got me thinking if it wasn't really to overpowered or something, since once the pieces are there, you can go nuts. What are your thoughts on this?
The problem with the way Wizards of the Coast designs cards for Commander is that they encourage the use of infinite combos rather than trying to do the opposite which is why we need more abilities similar to Jester's Cap, Sadistic Sacrament, Stranglehold, Mindlock Orb, Aven Mindcensor, Denying Wind, Extract, etc. to help punish those who try to break the format and ruin it for everyone.
Players shouldn't have to take up slots in their decks in order to deal with infinite combos which ends up hurting their main strategy in the long run but it is a given that just about every Commander deck runs plenty of board wipes, counterspells, and spot removal based on what they have available in their Commander's color identity since the format now is basically a race to see who goes infinite first or stops them from going infinite.
Maybe more cards that have different modes that could disrupt combos but still not be useless. For example Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Anafenza, the Foremost have been solid creatures and the little extra graveyard hate is really nice. Maybe some more flexibility like that?
Last Sunday I was playing a game of commander general where there where teams of three and the middle person was the general and there teammates on either side had to defend him. The general on the opposite team accidentally made an infinite mill combo with phenax and some other cards and after that game he had to leave and said he'd take out the card that made it possible and we had a good laugh that he didn't realize he had a combo
Also I enjoy playing combos but I know others don't so I make it to where it's obvious that I'm assembling a combo and give them time to stop it
This is so relevant to me. My friend and i had a debate about infinite combos. They don't like the game to win out of no wheres. They think infinite combos are dumb with littler interactions. My argument was play around it. If you know someone has an infinite combo deck focus them. In a multiplayer game if no deck has any sort of removal or disruption i really cant feel sorry for you . I play in a few play groups with different opinions on infinite combos. The one play group at a card shop their game plan was target the player with the infinite combo. So me being that player i am not mad or anything. I find it even more challenging to be able to get my combo protect it at the same time SURVIVE. The other play group small group of friends straight out banned infinite combo which kinda makes me sad because i put so much effort into building a deck i just cant use because its "Unfun".
me and my play group are all relatively new to commander and you are where we have gotten our ideas for deck techs. I personally run breya, and you have the idea of ashnods altar and nim deathmantle. 1 of the 3 others hates that loop. He runs a loop with kydele and some cloak or something that produces infinite colorless mana. Because because i won, 1 time with my infinite, he's wanting us all to stop using infinites.
trollARTist 666 Rain of Salt?
Hahah I began chaos in your playgroup. I'm secretly happy ... Communication is key but I have a few things that could help. You guys should all build a second deck. Make it CHEAP and make it a little lower in power level. This is a fun thought experiment and a pallet cleanser from the more serious games you have been playing. Another thing you could do ... buy your friend an FNM Krosan Grip ($6 TCG Mid) as a present to interrupt your combo. Something like that changes the tone of the playgroup. It moves from combative to collaborative. Good luck.
Thank you!
It was exactly that question, which I couldn't give answer to: is it ok to use combos in EDH?
So your point of view with explanation was really helpful :)
I have no problems with infinite combos. And i 100% agree with your philosophy about fun. What people sometimes seem to miss about infinite combos is that they (in casual EDH atleast) require build up/tutoring and rarely come completely out of nowwhere. And they are not the only instance of "i jsut win the game know" you can have in edh. If a token-heavy green deck drops Craterhoof Behemoth, that can most of the times mean this player is going to win the game on the spot, since having 15 creatures with atkleast 15/15 and trample equals lethal damage in most cases.
What i look out for in EDH ist fostering a healthy play-environment for my group, because in my experience that is what leads to the most fun for everyone. Part of fostering that is not telling people what to play or how to play but rather show them that it is in their best interest that others are having fun too. Infinite combos are often powerful, but they are not unbeatable. The only problem with them is players unwilling to match their gameplan/dekc to the group and prioritise winning over the fun of the entire group.
You got it. Great Comment
I wanted to try and be slightly different with my Azami deck. Yes I do run MoM+Lab Maniac. But the majority of the time I win by ramping into Omniscience and casting enter the infinite off of it. I enjoy it a lot.
As a general rule I only play my Azami deck (which can be insanely oppressive if I so wish) if there is no other mono blue deck at the table. I have been in that situation myself and there is nothing quite as draining as when you have to wait for two mono blue decks to take their turns.
I think if someone drops an infinite combo that the player who won just scoops and removes his/herself from the game while the rest can still play and fight for 2nd/3rd/4th. Divine intervention is the pinnacle of fun btw.
That guy pretending a pickup game up basket ball is the NBA who would never actually even attempt to get into the NBA is the perfect analogy for people who talk about cEDH being a) the real way EDH is meant to be played and b) that multiplayer cEDH is a legitimate competitive format.
Look, if you wanted real competition you'd be playing a 1v1 sanctioned format tournament, or duel commander at the very least.
I just hate people who play at false pretenses about what they do and why they do it.
On the other hand, even players that want to play 'casual decks' (if it's not a tournament or play testing for a tournament it's casual, despite any cEDH player's delusions of grandeur protestations to the contrary. Power level can vary, it's still casual) need to make functional decks that have ways of interacting with each other and on the other hand should at least attempt to be a deck that can be interacted with to some extent. Otherwise everyone is just playing solitaire until something wins.
Oh yeah, there is a lot of difference in power between some of my casual decks and others.
100% this, I couldn't have said it better myself.
AI play a fair amount of what might be called cEDH, and I can guarantee you two things.
A: Someone trying to define commander as a specific or "right" thing has no idea WTF they are talking about. The format was literally made to be a casual bash off between four friends, not 4 man legacy decks.
Elitism in EDH is the most ironic thing I've ever seen, and it grated on me more than Chaos Norin Decks.
B: cEDH is an illusion through and through.
I've had obscenely mean decks get completely pasted them by Mill, Stompy and even Jank/Chaos decks because they ran cards no "real" EDH player ever would, and it was absolutely beautiful. The most hilarious part is that cEDH decks usually have builds and setups where they expect to play against other cutthroat commanders, and they're vulnerable to "conventional" decks because they will typically burnout very fast. They're also really not ready for a lot of the expensive cards (like 4 mana boardwipes) that are snubbed, and are totally screwed when blown out.
C: Your avatar is outstanding and is now my phone's screensaver, thank you for sharing this with me.
Trickbind, Null Rod, Rest In Peace, Torpor Orb, Krosan grip, spirit of the labyrinth... All cards to run that to shut down random BS combos.
Great suggestions. If you are in a metagame with a lot of combos then feel free to punish your opponents for having such a narrow win condition.
When I was younger I tried to avoid these things because I thought it was really boring. However Nowadays I honestly think they're a brilliant to end a game that would otherwise turn into a 3 hour game. My concerns are more when people play Wraths that delay a game for a considerable amount of time... just cause. And I honestly try to avoid making games longer without the need to. Same goes for Stacks decks I understand that there's a point where that strategy is appropiate for stopping someone from winning turn 3 when everyone is stil developing.
I think my favorite combo is Sporemound with Life and Limb
Awesome vid! I wanna see more like this!! :D
Idea for a house rule.... "you can repeat a combo loop 10 times for every card in the combo" eg 20 untaps with vizier/druid mana combo (since it's a 2 card infinite combo). Thoughts?
Ps the combo requires something to spend the mana on too, but that isnt an infinite combo
I prided my self on my latest EDH Brew with (Ayli, Eternal pilgrim) as my Commander the deck is basically creature beat down with utility cards and board wipes the Ayli has cost of 1 white and 1 black mana and I can sack a creature pay w/b and 1 colourless to exile opponents target permanent! not a particularly over powered ability but still useful I think she is still a decent commander as her ability is fare.
I decided to travel in to the city to my lgs and enjoy the EDH casual games they have available its a great way to meat new friends and interact with healthy sportsmanship and share ideas and Combos.
Yet as my first game starts my opponent drops his commander on the table (Nivmizzet Firemind)
And basicly i know I have a 5-6 turn clock, and sure enough I found my self land choked by T3, and as soon as my Opponent drops the enchantment (Curiosity) on Niv my opponent then explains to me that he can now Go infinite with Niv and the card draw as he deals 1 damage with each card draw BAM!
At that moment something inside just broke the wheels just fell of and as I looked at my hand filled with Mythic Gas from GOD I realised how futile my efforts at EDH deck building actually were I mean against this 2 card Game ending combo i could do nothing, My opponent seeing I was a little dismayed offered me a rematch and I thought "Yes!! Revenge" and guess what LOL he pulls the same Combo off T5 via a tutor of some form and then shakes my hand!!. A small group had formed around our table and I couldn't help but zone in on the comments in support of my triumphant opponents Game breaking Combo!! "Easy win they chanted" and the smiles were plenty and at that second defeat I scooped my cards and with a smile I shook the dudes hand and congratulated him.
On my trip home on the Bus i felt strangely depressed and at a loss as I scanned my card collection in my head to find anything that could stop and never allow such a Hosing to ever take place again and I guess that's why I am here!! great Vid thank you for sharing.
I think I shall not play my own brews again at LGS stores as I realise that people want to WIN they pride there egos on it some more then others yet I enjoy the game its self i like to win but at the same time if my opponent out plays me that is some thing else, and I can sure appreciate another player out playing me that takes skill to out play a stranger you have never met before! so compared to a 2 card Game ending combo I can see the difference. thank's once again my 20 cents.
8)
Fun to me is making sure everyone has a fair chance at winning - or having epic battles before the win. My idea of commander fun is to see my decks work. I want to be creative; 50 per cent of my decks are theme or story based: Pagan, Greek Mythology, The Otherworld, Christianity and Morai. I even have a deck called Marchesa's Army, which sees the Queen allying with vampires and dragons to secure the throne. I want to tell a story ... And then someone decides to focus me dead.
all i gata say is 1: explain each step of the process 2: dont say sorry when you do it 3: please make it new (instead of fireball, used comet storm next time) or make it thematic n such
Great video.
Thanks, glad you liked it.
What card is the art from 3:40 from?
edit: never mind. I dug into the comments section and found an old response. It's Stealer of Secrets
nice vide man, I have two main decks one with Samut and a couple of combos in turn 20 LOL so I have fun playing bcoz I'm not centerded in combo everyone, I'm just looking for fun attacking and be attacked , the other one is Marath with some combos , but there are turn 7-8 combos if possible so, we can afford to ramp, attack, do some good cards combinations , that's the way I like to play commander. but there are decks with almost instant combo, for me it's ok, shuffle your deck and star again ohhh and I like to see how the players prepare and do a combo, I've lose sometimes bcoz of that LOL.
Would my wife and I playing slivers together in two headed giant commander against our friends count as fun? Maybe planeschase?
I dunno, if I can play Divine Intervention and end the game I consider that a win. In Zedruu whether I flash it in before my turn with Paradox Haze on myself or I give it to someone else and make THEM tie the game it just feels good. Well, as good as anything else in a Zedruu deck, that is.
every playgroup has its own meta and rules but this is the rule of thumb I play by and it hasn't pissed anyone off yet.
if my commander is involved in an infinite combo It needs to be atleast 3 cards.
if it involves the 99 it can be 2 card but I still prefer to make it 3. anyone and their uncle can win with Kiki Jiki and zealous conscripts. how many have won with Tooth and Claw, Parallel Lives, and Blood Artist?
Solid rule of thumb. I have one more thing to add. Magic players, just because you have kiki and conscripts in your hand does not mean you need to cast them. I have an awesome combo-centric deck (ua-cam.com/video/-0fZQpZNIDc/v-deo.html) that can win with kiki or go infinite pretty easily but the perferred method of winning ... 4 biovisionaries :D so even if I could win through easier means the real goal of the deck is to Biovisionary people!
I run 8 persist cards (which are still less accessible than a commander in a command zone), 4 ways to turn off persist with either Melira or +1+1 counters, and 5 instant speed sac outlets,
two of the combos create mana and need something like blood artist to kill with the combo alone, one mills, one makes a really BIG zombie, one tutors everyone's graveyards for their best creatures(if you run runescarred demon I get infinite tutors of my own deck), two of them give me infinite +1+1 counters to my whole board, one blows up nonland permanents, and one does direct damage.
I built this deck to respond to other people's infinite deck, and it is consistent but the combo has different wincons nearly every game. Every combo requires at least 3 cards and none are the commander unless I switch to Ghave, which depends on ashnods altar to be part of the combo
whats wrong with divine intervention what if no win con only disrupts and divine intervention and hugs
A lot of commander decisions on decks can usually be defined by the people you play against/with. I play both online and in paper magic. The experiences are completely different. I usually know what to expect when playing with the people in my community as their playstyles are typically always the same. Online it can vary a lot more. Both have its advantages and disadvantages. Infinite combos unless dealt with just means to me, time for a new game and if it happens to consistently by that player, I will ultimately start to refuse to play against that deck. A lot of people despise combo, some despise mass land destruction, some despise counter magic. Some love peaceful coexistance, hug, Divine Intervention decks. I dislike green in edh cause I feel it is too resilient. But that is simply my opinion. TL:DR if you dont like the decks/players you are up against, dont play with them..simple. If you have no real choice because lack of player base...adapt.
I think I'm the sort of player this video is about. xD I enjoy two types of playstyles: Combo, or prison. Either really flashy or extremely slow. I do tend to stray away from infinite loops, though. I am okay with Paradox Engine + Mana Rocks creating infinite mana as long as you're not looping the same spell to make that mana (as in, actually cast your entire deck). I stray away from mass land destruction, but am okay with selective land destruction (Wildfire, Bend or Break).
There certainly is something to be said about gauging the power level of your play group, but at the same time people need to learn to take losses as a learning opportunity. I have zero problems if people who play me often adjust their deck a bit to be able to answer my plays. 50% of the people in my playgroup *love* playing with artifacts (myself included). If the other 50% refuse to run any artifact removal and keep losing to artifact-based plays, that's their own fault. Commander has a massive cardpool to choose from. You can find a myriad of answers to certain strategies without diluting your deck theme or strategy.
Also, if I owned a Divine Intervention, I would absolutely build a deck around it. :P
Divine intervention is fun for me, either against or with. the way i see it, everyone wins
A draw means nobody wins or loses though
My problem is when decks win one way every time, in talking craterhoof, ad nauseum, tooth and nail, and the like. I prefer combos as a win condition that uses less card slots, but strive to make every game different
In my playgroup we don't play with the stupid rule that commanders can't get tucked. It helps a lot against decks that build around the commander to heavily :)
I let people do whatever they want but if you tuck my commander I will choose to put it in my library.
My friend is building an aluren commander deck, and I don't think it is going to be very fun when you win the whole game once you have 3 cards.
I don’t often play infinite combo, but whenever I do, my absolute favorite win is infinite mana rocket launcher(I know goblin canon is better)
my friends and I don't have this problem, because our decks are only built for flavor. Like, yea, skullclamp would be nice in my faerie deck, but I don't play it for flavour reasons.
Yes, my friends krenko deck would be better with lightning greaves, but that just doesn't fit the aesthetic. So it balances out.
When we want to win, we play modern. For fun and flavor we play commander
Honestly, every deck every time period should have a way to disrupt combos. Period.
The example in the video was Atogatog vs Hermit druid, right?
Well... the atogatog player taps out.. or doesn't have grave hate.. or doesn't have removal.. or looks at hermit druid (assuming no haste involved) and leaves it in play.. ect. On top of commander begin a multiplayer format USUALLY consisting of 4 players (so 3 opponents for the hermit druid combo) where NO player had these things.
I don't play infinite combos in my decks. My decks win with other equally stupid strategies. Grey merchant being recurred 6-7 times, elesh norn and sakashima, beastmasters ascension with Kebolds (all different decks, clearly) but each and every one of them has instant speed removal, grave hate, counterspells (if playing blue) or some way to shut off common combos, which if you notice are almost exclusively creature and graveyard based- occasionally artifact based but that is usually just a sac outlet.
There is no reason you should't have answers to threats. It iis stupid. The no infinite combos mentality that people play with is the no-blue mentality. The idea that people don't like being punished for intentionally tapping out.
What makes magic truly great, something one of the guys at my LGS said that I really enjoyed, is that in magic you can continue playing on your opponents turn. Not like pokemon TCG or yugioh (mostly) where you sit there and hope what you have already done was good enough to stop your opponent from outright winning. Not being able to respond is a choice you make when you make your deck, but being punished for it is perfectly acceptable.
The reason I don't play infinite combos, by the way, has nothing to do with a dislike for them I don't mind losing to an infinite combo. I don't play them because I enjoy the challenge of finding a way to win against 3 other players without it. It is real challenging and it makes me want to pull my hair out when I play because i don't bother hiding that I am a threat.
And how did that work out for you?
I also don't want to win via infinite combos, but with 3 players at the table who do try to do that, I'm unable to stop them all.
Or have you found something generic that can stop combos? I'm building Rashmi, so it would have to be blue or green and can't be a "not more than one spell each turn" card.
my opinion on infinite combos is : use them as a wincondition in your deck. but don't center your deck around it. For example, I run a pretty succsessfull Kambhal and a pretty succsessfull Ghave deck. Both got infinite combos. But I do not tutor for them (except I am at the brink of losing, also I run exclusively diabolic tutor) and I focus my decks around other mechanics.
Like this I can combo off once in a while and no one is like "oh, this shit again" like it happens with every narset deck out there.
It's pretty boring of one at the table is simply just brainstorming and tutoring until he goes "okay, I do this, that and infinite turns/damage/mana"... you either end up focusing them down every game which is not particularly fun for them and for you (hating someone just because he might combo off even if he is short on mana right now or something feels bad) or you instantly quit the games when he arrives because you don't want to play 20 minutes and then watch him win for 10 mins.
Also combo decks defeat the commander purpose imho. Commander is a singleton format and therefor, it should be variation in the games even if you're playing the same decks again and again. That doesnt mean the decks shouldn't be consistent - as I said my decks are succsessfull and in what they do pretty consistant - but you can have variation in these games.
With Kambal I might tax everyone to the point I can kill them with Debt to the Deadless and the other game I simply get to 151 life and nuke the board with aetherflux reservoir. And the next game I run them over with diety of pride und Gisela/Bruna (melt or not) while controlling the board by spending all that life I gained for cardatvantage.
I am talking about group play only because duel Commander in my eyes isn't really commander. 20hp is stupid and the format devolved to a 100 card singleton modern. Don't get me wrong, modern is fun. But when I want to play modern, I play modern.
+Schwarzer Tee great comment! Thanks!!
I usually just go for shinanagins rather than the win tbh
Heck jumbo I caught flack from a combo that cycles my hand a few times that isn't infinite some people just don't care
Infinite combos are okay so long as you tell me they are allowed in your meta before I play.
Or if you are the new person playing with a different playgroup you need to bring it up. Sometimes playing with someone who wins every turn 3 just isn't any fun for everyone else involved.
Even worse than infinites are narset decks. I don't want to watch one player take 30 turns. It's ridiculously selfish and annoying.
I understand annoying 2 or 3 card combos that go infinite, but what about just storming off with a dozen different spells and not going infinite but just going off really hard? I mean where do we draw the line? If you combo off later in the game your opponent still won't like it. Should we just not play combo which is by far the best and easiest way to win an end match?
I'd take getting infinite combo'd on turn 5 over wasting my precious time at a table with a Gaddock Teeg, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Sen Triplets, etc any day of the week.
this is also a hot topic at our local lgs lately. we have had this commader league and it all kinda started with an azusa deck wich played eldrazi's on turn 2. wich kinda set the bar in a lot of peoples opinions. like there was a pricepull but it was supposed to be just for fun. and then there is this dude playing big eldrazi's to early and a lot of people took it a bit more serious because he did. that is why a lot of people grabbed there good combo decks to win. wich in a lot of peoples eyes was not fun anymore. so in the next league we will have annihalator and combo's will be banned. but i think you just have to set the tone from the beginning in your playgroup or something like a little event. is it competetive or casual just to avoid miscommunications and sad people.
a very important thing is, a lot of combos are just "game wining combo" but not necessarily infinite. e.g the Fire mind with untap, can draw the entire deck and deal far more than 40 damage to opponent/opponents, that combo is not infinite but still game winning, that is really fun.
Good point
niv mizzet decks like that are not much fun. this is how it goes
draw spells for 6 turns straight
niv mizzet
curiosity (because with 6 turns of draw spells there is no way you don't have it)
gameover.
i don't see how that is fun for anyone.
Easy way to screw him over is making the Niv player deck themselves. There have been WAY too many times where I've played a Niv player that killed everyone except for one guy left due to not enough cards left in their deck to draw for damage and the one that survived beat out the "infinite"
"Blue Sun's Zenith for 2?" Haha!
In my commander decks, I never include infinite combos or extra turns. I would be willing to include them in a meta that has lots of nuts stuff like utlra control, stax, and mass land destruction, combo-decks etc. My meta doesn't have that stuff, so I don't use it.
I build decks of a variety of power levels. I try to make them all interactive. I don't wanna be that guy who is trying to minimize interaction to achieve some super board state and win. I wanna interact. Some decks have more control and some less, but swinging with creatures is interaction, as long as they don't have unblockable.
I play Control which, you reader may groan out and move on to the next comment, but I make it fun. I make deals with the other players and not just being an antifun jerk who kills everything they see. Most of the time, I let everything resolve, but when one person plays a super good card, about to when the game (say craterhoof) I say "table, I shall save everyone" and put my responses on the table. My deck is a police force of the table, and can be unfun if you are trying to win super fast and uncareful, or you can sneak your way past the guards (my deck) and snatch victory from behind. Those who make themselves noticable will be thwarted, those who are cunning, will succed
Unless half your deck has the words "cant be countered" and "hexproof" on it
idk 2 card combos are the worst, if it requires more than that, then it feels like they at least have to work for it. 9:00 perfect
my one and only infinite combo. Omniscience + Tamiyo Emblem + Enter the Infinite. pretty good ehh? :P i run it in my riku deck. infinite whatever i want, and only 2 cards in the game can stop me after the combo goes off (both have split second so i cant counter them).
my friend and i had this discussion the other day. another point to make is, if you say no infinte combos, you are taking away a part of someones deck. are you going to tell the blue player no counterspells? how about the green player no creatures?
Hey is playing infi combos that are super bad ((Ie chances are low)) Really that bad? I have a jodah deck where all i try to go is infinite people know when im close or when im not.
I love Divine Intervention
We have a few guys at my shop who simply can not handle being combo'd out. They'll stomp and whine that it's too unfair and use other vulgar language to describe the players who combo'd. I tend to avoid playing with them unless I wanna win packs... lol.
Stebin ActingDa'Mickey Are they 13?
Older than I sadly. They weren't spanked enough as children
Stebin ActingDa'Mickey Yeah Im still trying to train myself to not get mad when my friend combos out. My meat is actually in the process of shifting to a more competitive commander environment where decks like Tasigur or Jace run rampant. While fun, it can be frustrating. It personally makes it worse when you combine hard core, shut everyone out, draw a million cards control with the combo (weird coming from a live long control fan)
There's someone I know at my store like that too.... sad part is he's 40, and has children. You'd think he'd know to show a better example of how to be a gracious loser. I try not to play with him either at this point, especially since he claims his instant win plays are fair when mine are not.
I have sage of hours in my Exuri claw of progress deck. Everytime I play it I just feel bad... Time to replace it.
firestormpiccolo I mean I don't hate infinite combos unless they're ones like that xd, I'm fine with it if I die on the spot because we can start a new game but if you have to draw halfway into your deck and take 30+ turns is just not as fun
I did an infin combo on the like button!
What card is the art from at 3:40 ?
Stealer of Secrets
I don't consider anything over 4 card combos to be powerful. that's just me. but yes..when I see a general that only needs 1 card to combo off I think "great, should be a fun 10 min edh game. oh, should, sh-should I even shuffle?"
I'm just starting to play EDH, I have bought my first deck and am due to play my first game next week. I was very excited about this. But I have now found out that the other players are playing infinite combos. I'm now angry and no longer excited. I wanted a long fun game with in depth strategy but its just gonna be who can race to their combo fastest.
Do you know what combos they play? Maybe everyone can give you some specific advice. Also consider this, if they regularly play together they should have disruption for each others combo. You can still have a long competitive game!
thanks for the reply. I'm not sure what combos exactly but his commander is niv mizzet and he said he has 3 dif combos that are not technically infinite but are limited only by the number of cards in his library. I think they involve artifacts. I'm playing a meren deck and have cards like reclaimation sage and caustic caterpillar to deal with the combo. Its just annoying cos of what you said in the video, when I organised the game and bought my deck my expectation was that in a casual format people would not just be trying to combo off to finish each other off. What is the point of having 40 life if that is the case. I'm just disappointed that they built their decks like that knowing it would be my first EDH game. Knowing the guy I should have realised tho, he can't do casual - he always wants to play whats optimal for winning quickest.
Oh well, I'm hoping that now I'm dread it that it won't be as bad as I expect. Also I'm sure there must be other people in my town who play EDH who would agree not to play infinite combos. I face enough of that in modern!!! I'm playing EDH to get away from that kind of MTG! BTW I actually get on with the guy well, hes alright. Its just not what I wanted from the format at all!
I'm now thinking of adding more oppressive cards to my deck to hate on his strategy and cripple his deck. Cards like smokestack and maybe even winter orb. I would never have added those before but now I'm annoyed.
I should prob play seal of primordium, that'd stop him comboing off right?
Just normal removal can interrupt Niv-Mizzet. You are looking for Curiosity, Ophidian Eye, and Tandem Lookout. When he casts them kill his general in response. When I see a niv mizzet deck I am actually expecting these three cards. This in a pretty "fair" two card combo so I would not worry too much about it. I'd say keep an open mind and have some fun just make sure you have some instant speed creature removal so you can keep the game going. good luck!
yeah hopefully it'll be good. the only card I really wanted that I'm missing is attrition which would have been good for dealing with him. I'll get it soon tho. I'm not actually running that much removal because most of my removal is creature and anchantment based like merciless executioner, fleshbag marauder, dictate of erebos. Thanks for telling me what cards to look out for, thats really useful. what is a good removal I could run for dealing with Niv Mizzet? Victim of Night??