The fact that Evo 37 is mentioned as the #1 E-Sports moment of all-time really is all that needs to be said honestly. You and Daigo got people PAID to play video games and blew the whole thing up.
I think you're on point Justin. Honestly, Twitter is just full of hot takes and really rewards people for making them when it comes down to it. Recency bias is pretty common and annoying in all kinds of things unfortunately. Best response to it is just facts.
Good point about recency bias - sometimes people who took the first step deserve massive credit despite their attempt of seeming crude by modern standards. Google micro mouse for a fun example.
The most short-term GOAT must at least be Arslan Ash. Dude came outta nowhere and bullied everyone in T7, including the Korean hegemoni, all by himself.
@yoruzeruel5009 You making this statement just proves my point. He has notable feats in 1 title in a few years time. Sako, Nemo, Tokido, Justin Wong, Leffen, Daigo, Sonic Fox. Some of these guys have been great at a bunch of fighting games, FOR DECADES. Sonic Fox was dominant for a good 5+ years in multiple titles. If AA can keep doing what he's been doing then maybe you can consider him for GOAT status. As it stands right now he's just a really good player in the present.
@CobraCommander69 ash also casually demolishes pro king of fighters players for fun when he takes a break from tekken,he was very good in kof before tekken
Legends never call themselves goats thats why you never see Justin,daigo or tokido said that 😂 all of them have like 18 evos combined or something which is insane!
Great video, I think it's interesting what you said about Momochi already winning Capcom Cup and EVO, and also being one of the best since 3s, and most people not even bringing him up even when talking Street Fighter players only. Legends like Ryan Hart, Kazunoko, Tokido, Yourself, Daigo, etc. have done so much over the span of 20 years in all kinds of games, some of them still winning majors today way past their prime, and a lot of these stories aren't well told or passed on to newer players
Momochi was hands down the best sf4 player for the last year and a half of the games life when the meta was at its highest and won evo japan in sf5 so that is suprising that he gets over looked by people. I'd think most people would either have Daigo, Infiltration or Momochi as the front runners for Street Fighter goat. Daigo has the most history going all the way back to the 90s so for someone to beat him out in my opinion, they'd need a Justin MvC2 / Sonicfox level of dominance for atleast 2-3 years to be close since no one has been able to do that, with the closest being Infiltration and Daigo himself.
@@theshadiest7109 lmao. There is always that one guy who calls other games "not real". I bet you won enough tournaments in both the "real" fighting games and "not real" ones to say that.
@@theshadiest7109what the fuck is a "real game" what a gatekeeper ass take. Just say you don't like the game, just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less real. All fighting games now have gimmicks anyways
In all seriousness, to me he's like Shroud but with fighting games. You put a few random fighting games in his hands and he probably picks it up faster than most people.
Great video! It’s nice to bring history to the table because all that we see now, even in terms of skill or prizes was made by the late players. Congrats on the video!
Agree with JWong's list. You have to stand the test of time to have the GOAT status. IMO, you also need to be able to have more than one franchise under your belt too because otherwise folks like Xiaohai should be on the list for just how dominant they are in their respective game. Every one of Jwong's list satisfies these criterion.
Great video Justin! Couldn't have said better. Putting respect on those names of people that literally sacrificed a lot just to "play videogames" back in the days with basically no financial support and often not even emotional support 😅, it's really important. We wouldn't be at the place we are now, AAA games and massive communities if it weren't for those great players that created memorable moments that hooked many other people to play those games! LET'S GO JUSTIIIIIN ❤❤!!!!
Evo Moment #37. You and Daigo pushed fighting game scene to the world. It still brings people together and makes them awe. Another great player for me is Qudans, although he might not have as many titles and wins in tournaments, but he was also a huge inspiration factor like yourself Justin. For me GOAT is not only a person with most titles but the one that puts something on the world map, and as you said yourself Michael Jordan will always be a great example here. For me you are the Michael Jordan of fighting games Justin, and Daigo is Scottie Pippen. Thank you for all the content and all the memories. Big love from Poland.
Criteria for me: Consistency in multiple games/eras ,Impact, an era of dominance, major wins,define an era. Which is why Justin is the GOAT of fighting games
That's why Tokido or Ryan Hart are name that deserve the same kind of praise. I mean Tokido literally taught the US how to play 3s and especially Urien.
For me, an important part of a fighting game GOAT is presence over multiple games. Yeah there are a couple really good younger players, but thinking back there were multi game rivalries and dominating players over decades. Even one like fchamp who maybe does not have consecutive first places among capcom cups or whatnot did consistently fight in top 8 spots from SF4 over UMVC3, Street Fighter x Tekken, Killer Instinct, SF5 and now into SF6. That's some competitive history and consistency that the younger folks have yet to build up.
I really appreciate your views and commentary in this video and on this subject. The respect you show to the top players of old and the humbleness of not wanting to brag about yourself really shows how great of person you are, my good Sir.
"Mashes the 🐐 button" is just perfectly said. It's an overused term in general nowadays. People will have a good run with a couple Value Menu visits and be like "these Wendy's spicy nuggets stay goated" lol. Jokes aside, im glad you brought up other fighting games. Not all FGs merit being in the conversation, like i wouldnt think GOAT if someone said they won Rise Of The Robots nationals. But focusing just on SF while also saying FGs broadly juat shows lack of awareness to competition elsewhere. I understand the hype building though. For GOAT convos, i personally value consistency over various metas in one game, and the ability to play multiple FGs at high levels. Kind of tough to compare different eras too. Still a fun convo.
That key part that you said…. Impact in the scene. You my dood are that for me and many that have grown to love you and your continued contributions to the scene! Not to mention you’re a badass at the genre as a whole.
Being a GOAT is not just winning tournaments. Evolving the meta with your play, dramas, complete domination of the opposition, remarkable moments and your brand overall makes the GOAT.
We all stand on the shoulders of giants! That's how progress is made. If not for the old guard, who played their games to the max, we wouldn't even have iterations of the newer games. The old guard's passion and flag-bearing for their games is what eventually let it spread to the general public. Thank you for all you did and still do, Justin! You deserve your spot on Rushmore!
Bruh i love this video Not only is it informative, but it's accurate and doesn't throw shade. It really does feel like it's made with love for the fgc but also with love for accuracy and history
Justin's sentiment is great. Let's just say this, Daigo from 3rd strike to his streak in SF4 to start was not just considered the goat, before the loss to Poongko he was untouchable. SF4 had the highest skill cap of the SF games, had tons of these old guard legends, and Daigo at that time was a cut above. Tokido on career has probably caught up to him, but the GOAT conversation in fighting games begins and ends with Umehara and I don't even think that's debatable.
I agree with you 100% on this topic. First, Ryan Hart deserves way more respect in this conversation than most people give. Recency bias is real and people always overreact with recent results. Mena may very well end up being the GOAT one day, but he ain't there yet. JWong, Daigo, Sonic Fox, Ryan Hart, and Tokido are probably all in the top 5 for me right now. JWong versus Daigo is maybe the hardest decision out there in terms of #1 and #2.
This discussion about who the GOAT is will never have a definitive result. Let's just recognize the great players. Daigo, Tokido, Justin Wong, Ryan Hart, Punk, MenaRD, XiaoHai, Arslan Ash, SonicFox, Knee, Kazunoko, GO1, Problem X, JDCR, Fujimura, Fenritti, BAS, Alex Valle, John Choi, Nuki, sako, Xian, Momochi, Fuudo, Saint, Dragon, Wawa, Mago, Nobi, Haitani, Ricky Ortiz, Leffen, Hungrybox, Sandstorm among many others...
Great vid, the need for fgc history and commom context is super necessary, example in 2000 - 2010 what were the fgc majors in japan/usa aside from evo, who won? Who were contendors, what were the games, what was most popular. Who were the commentators, how many people entered? How many people watched? All these questions and more need amswers for context
I feel like dominance in multiple games is necessary to be in the convo. I think Arslan is almost there. He conquered T7, but I like to see him finally dominate KOF15 or the next Fatal Fury.
Absolutely agree. A lot of the new heads do not know about the lore of the FGC. Fighting Gods of japan, who came to the US and showed the world how to play proper third strike. Yun and Urien specialists showing you how to use their super arts. And of course Ryan Hart. The original Ryu of the 3D FGC. Travelled all over Asia to play the best and learn. All the way back in the 90’s there are stories of him playing best of 50 sets. Against the best in Japan and Korea. And of course Daigo needs no introduction, famously playing capcom fighters and even GG. Sonic has shown in multiple games in modern era that he is capable. Being dominant in one game is good, but more consideration is needed before throwing the word GOAT around.
I definitely agree what is crazy is that you never really hear anyone mention his name on topics like this despite what happened dude was on the path of being the best in SFV.
Yeah most definitely, he's dominated so many games highly competitive scenes, Sfiv, Sfv, Tekken X SF , Tekken tag team, samurai showdown and i think theres one more
Amazing points. I think a lot of the time the term “goat” is tossed around without the actual meaning being taken into consideration. Loosely tossed around as a “that person is really good” - I have a hard time taking it seriously as the “greatest of all time”.
Bro I’m not trynna glaze but you. Like when people think of fighting game players they think of you. I’ve actually been watching you compete for like my whole life( I think you’ve been doing it for at least 21 years)
Evo moment 37 makes you the goat. You were there so you know better than anyone lol. Jokes aside you, Daigo, and a handful of others are truly in that conversation. Old fighting game players can definitely compete now but I question how many of these newer dudes could hang in the games with harder execution.
In no order: The goats for me are the following 10 players: 1. Justin Wong 2. Daigo 3. Tokido 4. SonicFox 5. Ryan Hart 6 Infiltration 7. Xiao Hai 8. Arslan Ash 9. Leffen 10. Momochi Mena’s record does not match the records of these 10 yet. Maybe someday.
Arslan Ash won 4 evos ,twt finals, 2 combo breakers, thaiger uppercut , CEO , Gamers 8 and uprising in korea in tekken 7 and made top 8 in kof 15 in combo breaker while playing tekken 7 and wining in tekken 7 and playing street fighter.
Arlan Ash only dominated in one game the same way Infiltration dominated SF4 and SF5 in 2015-2017. I wouldn't put him at goat status. Even in tekken, he's not the goat. I'll reserve that until he wins 8 and 9 the same way other goats like JW, Tokido, and Sonicfox could win across multiple generations and genres.
@@bboygenetics9882I wouldn't put Sonicfox anywhere near them until he starts winning major tournamnets at actual good games with the best interenational competition. For Ash to smash the best of Korea and Japan at a hard game like Tekken while still being able to compete with the Mexicans at another hard game in KOF makes him worthy of a mention.
@@atuls55 idk man. I just can't put him in the discussion when he's only won in one game. If he can win in KoF, then we can have a discussion. As of now, I wouldn't even put him as a tekken goat. If he dominates 8 and 9 too, then sure.
@@bboygenetics9882 Even then, Sonicfox isn't worthy of the conversation when Tokido dominated more in more games of more genres. Sonicfox is basically good at games only NA plays bar DBFZ and even DBFZ, he got caught up pretty quickly and doesn't compare to the french domination for example.
@@Hazakura-in I don't think Sonicfox is goat worthy either. Just using him as an example since he was the best in multiple games. Gives him a better argument than Arslan
I used to play and watch a lot of Tekken Tag back in the day. When I think goat my mind automatically goes to Jang Iksu. It might be easier found now, but back then at least, I can't recall any videos of him losing a set. Again I'm not confirming he's undefeated, but back then through the minimal tournament footage we had, and the Korean weeklys, he at least went on an incredibly long winning streak through top competition.
I didn’t hear that name ( jang lksu ) in forever to the point it left my memory bank for a second until you mentioned him again you my friend know your tekken history
Awesome video Justin. I still think you are the goat not only from your results playing but also what you have done for the FGC as a whole. Glad to hear your praise for Ryan Heart. With the influx of players a ton of great people get overlooked, including him. Gotta check the mashing on words. Stoked to hear you commentate at redbull kumite!
I agree with you Justin in this list, yet I want to mention someone who truly deserves some recognition: Bunbun-maru. He is basically the true OG, the guy that when in the west people were playing fighting games almost only for button mashing or simple fun he was already the modern equivalent of a esport player and a TV celebrity in Japan in, like, 1994. He is still respected and admired in Japan to this day.
Nah, you're not overreacting. These goat labels are stupid. It's only gotten worse due to social media and these young clowns in a rush to label a "goat" in order to exercise their hyped idolatry.
I remember when you were with EG. But weren’t you also with Empire Arcadia for a short time? With Sanford, Yipes and that dude with the Nintendo power glove that was good at Tetris back in the Marvel days.
It's Daigo. He's good in most of the Fighters. Daigo can play Darkstalkers and ALL Street Fighter games. He beat Alex Valle and Justin and his parry skills became an EVO moment on a Capcom game. The G.O.A.T is Daigo. Sorry but not sorry. Check Daigo's resume....
3:05 - Yeah, all the best players back then basically only got that good because they just really liked the games. You'd end up at a net negative going to tournaments sometimes, but people would go anyway just to meet up or challenge themselves. There was never any money in fighting games until very recently. I remember when COVID hit, and some of the top SF5 players acted like there was no reason to even play when the prize money dried up. Where's the love for the game at?
I wanna see a tournament with leffen, sonicfox, arslan, menard, punk, jwong, lord knight and go1 in a fighting game tournament where they fight in multiple fighting games. Whoever wins the most fighting games wins the tournament; also comment more players that are good at multiple fighting games or fighting game goats that I gotta add
What makes you the goat to me is you're willing to put in every night single fighting game have a full-time job put only 4 hours into your training session show up as a nobody never been heard of. And pop off and win consistently in one video game or even place like top five makes you one of the goats. Justin you are the goat because how much work you put in everyday from playing at home to playing in arcades you have a resume built on your legacy in history. I think to be honest every one of us can be the goat if we are willing to put the time in and be passionate about the game I'm really hoping I can go to Evo and meet all of the goats there possibly sign up in the tournament as a casual and see how well I do learn for that experience think it even better I always know that is always going to be that person that is better than me and that's why I want to train very hard and fighting games that I love and have a passion for. But let me stop you happen you guys have a wonderful day if any of you guys want to play some fighting fighting games that I own hit me up sometimes
I appreciate this video. Context and history is key and the great ones of today stand upon the shoulders of legends who paved the way. More attention and lip service should be given to history, and also games that don’t get as much attention, especially at EVO. Vampire Savior has some legendary players around the world who likely will never set foot on EVO main-stage, which is a shame.
Sonicfox Is insane. Simultaneously being #1 at DBFZ, Skullgirls and MK, 3 completely different games with completely different mechanics, is unbelievable.
I think Arslan Ash is definitely one of the goats for sure. Granted, he succeeded in mainly Tekken 7 but it's freaking Tekken that we're talking about here. The amount of talent that game has is insane.
What makes you a goat is not only your accomplishments, but also paving the way for others throughout history. Also, the community and commentators has pushed their legend beyond what was inside the game. Finally, their consistency of success. Like sonic fox, making low tier characters look amazing in MK. Not only pushing them to only to the limits, but actually winning. Another example would be Maximillion, not only because of his fighting game knowledge, but how he intertwines it with the community itself. As far as overall fighting games no I think he’s an amazing player but he doesn’t have an era like punk did. I would even put yipes in there from his amazing gameplay, actually winning and becoming a top 10 commentator in top of that. Or H box in melee, and how you still carries it until this day. I think the term goat is extremely over but I’m just a scrublord commenting on a UA-cam vid.
100% agree with your breakdown. Maybe we need to change the rhetoric use another term in place of G.O.A.T. since in the case of Menard (who is an unbelievably skilled player), its not accurate to say "all time". Its easy to say goat but maybe greatest of recent time(G.O.R.T.), or greatest of last decade (G.O.L.D.). A lot of disagreements in my own experience stem from a word meaning different things to both sides of the argument. Usually the first step in resolving conflict would be to pinpoint the word and agree on a meaning or insist on being more specific if it is to vague in description. Just my 2 cents. There's not gonna be many that can touch you and Daigo though. As others have mentioned - moment 37 is the catalyst for what allowed the fighting game genre to blossom and survive since then. I actually picked up SF6 because moment 37 was recommended to me out of nowhere in my yt feed. I hadnt played a fighting game since xmen vs street fighter in 2002. Thanks for being my personal 🐐 jwong.
Criteria for fighting game goats is this. 3. Rang. How long have they been playing for 12 years or more min. 2. Accomplishments. What have they won or consistently placed in the top 32. #1 They have to be great at more then 1 game that matters. You can't be just a Street Fighter Specialist or a Mortal Kombat Specialist.
This was a great video and topic. That word gets thrown around carelessly these days. I am glad you brought up Ryan Hart, that man may just be THE goat. Definitely debatable, but it's crazy to me that anyone that just started in the last 5 years can already be called a goat... Keep it up Justin.
People also sleep on Zakunoko. He won DBFZ world finals, Street Fighter evo or Capcom Cup, and multiple Guilty Gear big tournament. 8 times capcom cup finalist and so much more
Great points, Justin. As great as Mena already is at Street Fighter, that’s only 1 franchise. You gotta dominate for like an entire decade with basically no losses to be an FGC goat while playing only 1 game, imo. Also I’m glad somebody with reputation mentioned Sonicfox as being on their Mount Rushmore of fgc goats. Too many tournament wins across multiple games to not at least get a mention in the conversation
The level of play pioneered by the OGs is why competitive fighting games are capable of being the world spectator phenomena they are. Always respect. PS: of course JWong is on the shortest of short lists. Straight lifetime polygamer savant and many times champion.
Great video to put the 'GOAT' debate in perspective. I think it is easier to pick goats for specific franchises though. Knee is the obvious choice for Tekken so far. But Arslan Ash who put his entire country's scene on the map can surpass him if he keeps it up.
Justin had great points here at the end and i felt the same way before even hearing him say it. I would also put Leffen up there for consideration. He's another player that has been top tier in multiple titles. To me having the versatility to be at the top in multiple different games is the only way to consider some of these players a GOAT in the fgc.
I consider EVO the pinnacle of fighting game championships so, who won the most EVOs again? Yep. Justin Wong. So my Mt Rushmore is JWong, Ryan Hart, Tokido, Daigo.
I think goat in fighting games it goes based on accolades, how many different fighting games you won globally, major tournaments, how you changed the game. I think Justin you have accomplished all these things including a large fan base. Sako is also good with Big bulleta hood in dark stalkers
I agree with your ending words. Most people use the word goat to bring one person up and bring everyone else down. It is used too much to ignore all the accomplishments of everyone in the same category.
Tangentially, the root tier yet still rapidly improving commentary and hosting skills make JWong also something bigger and different than the GOAT, and that is THE overall pick for fighting game ambassador of Planet Earth.
Great Vid. Agree with everything you said about the GOAT topic. I wonder why no one ever brings up or Mentions Carl White(Perfect Legend) as one of the GOATS?? PL has 3 Evo titles. 2 back to back in MK and 1 from Dead or Alive. Plus he's won CEO and other tourneys,etc. Alex Valle,John Choi, and Bas should be mentioned as well imo.
yeah the Ryan Hart Disrespect is crazy to me. Ryan put Sagat on thr map post Vanilla in SF4. His brought new tech and set ups to sagat AFTER the Nerfs. And even during SF4 Hart was considered an OG
It's a sign of the health of the FGC that GOAT is so debatable, and I think this video hit on everything I would want said. But I think you have to say Justin Wong is the MVP of the FGC in terms of his contributions to both the competitive scene and the overall popularity of this genre.
just as the younger gen players probably have higher skill ceilings larger size tournaments, I think we should consider that the old gen players had very little resources to learn and practice compared to the current gen. It's already hard enough to get good at a fighting game using practice modes, youtube tutorials, pro match footages, and even an AI ghost you can fight these days, but the older players had to innovate, learn, and practice all that in isolation using arcade machines. I think new gen players are amazing and great, but old gen players had their own struggles that they had to face and i think they deserve a lot of credit.
Justin has all this information and its great that he shared it. Looking at things in isolation is easy, but taking everything into consideration is hard.
2:44 The new generation don't know how much harder execution was in older games (compare 3rd strike and sfv, or melee and ultimate). Plus, the competition now is filled by many casuals but back in the days it was full of monsters even at the first stage of the tournaments, pools where hype. Now we don't find this much hype before a top 32. Money and number doesn't automatically mean higher quality or higher level.
The older players are the goats imo. The third strike mvc3 and tekken players. No one in specific just everyone. Those are some of the most difficult games to play and to be masters at it is good enough for me
You're definitely in the conversation. Once upon a time I'd have said Infiltration, but he ruined it. This topic would be a great episode of Triple KO.
You make a great point with New player that won some tournament. For me being a goat is to be able to have consistency from year to year over a decade then you could get a name. But when it's about just like 3 to 4 years winning for me it's not enough.
I agree 1,000%. Thank you for posting this rant. As an almost 40 year old FGC head myself I need these young people coming in to know the history of how this genre and international community grew from our $100 tournament grand prize winning seeds. 😂 Wong GOAT
Goat debates come down to stats a bit, but its usually more subjective than anything. We all have our own GOATS, and for me JWONG is top 3 and i've only really watched his UMVC3 career first hand. Didn't experience any of his Street Fighter history first hand.
The fact that Evo 37 is mentioned as the #1 E-Sports moment of all-time really is all that needs to be said honestly.
You and Daigo got people PAID to play video games and blew the whole thing up.
I think you're on point Justin. Honestly, Twitter is just full of hot takes and really rewards people for making them when it comes down to it.
Recency bias is pretty common and annoying in all kinds of things unfortunately. Best response to it is just facts.
Good point about recency bias - sometimes people who took the first step deserve massive credit despite their attempt of seeming crude by modern standards. Google micro mouse for a fun example.
0
props to giving Ryan Hart his flowers, UK represent!
The most short-term GOAT must at least be Arslan Ash. Dude came outta nowhere and bullied everyone in T7, including the Korean hegemoni, all by himself.
Arslan's T7 arc is legendary.
Short-term greatest of all time? You hear how redundant this sounds right? Makes no sense. He's a good player, now, in the present, not of all time.
@@CobraCommander69 Arslan is the only Tekken player in history to win EVO twice AND Tekken Tour twice
@yoruzeruel5009 You making this statement just proves my point. He has notable feats in 1 title in a few years time. Sako, Nemo, Tokido, Justin Wong, Leffen, Daigo, Sonic Fox. Some of these guys have been great at a bunch of fighting games, FOR DECADES. Sonic Fox was dominant for a good 5+ years in multiple titles. If AA can keep doing what he's been doing then maybe you can consider him for GOAT status. As it stands right now he's just a really good player in the present.
@CobraCommander69 ash also casually demolishes pro king of fighters players for fun when he takes a break from tekken,he was very good in kof before tekken
Well when a mommy goat and a daddy goat love each other very, very much…
Justin: I dont like talking about myself (in regard to being a goat)
Also Justin: Has 9 Evo titles
Legends never call themselves goats thats why you never see Justin,daigo or tokido said that 😂 all of them have like 18 evos combined or something which is insane!
Hes so humble! Surely he must be the GOAT
Great video, I think it's interesting what you said about Momochi already winning Capcom Cup and EVO, and also being one of the best since 3s, and most people not even bringing him up even when talking Street Fighter players only. Legends like Ryan Hart, Kazunoko, Tokido, Yourself, Daigo, etc. have done so much over the span of 20 years in all kinds of games, some of them still winning majors today way past their prime, and a lot of these stories aren't well told or passed on to newer players
Momochi was hands down the best sf4 player for the last year and a half of the games life when the meta was at its highest and won evo japan in sf5 so that is suprising that he gets over looked by people. I'd think most people would either have Daigo, Infiltration or Momochi as the front runners for Street Fighter goat. Daigo has the most history going all the way back to the 90s so for someone to beat him out in my opinion, they'd need a Justin MvC2 / Sonicfox level of dominance for atleast 2-3 years to be close since no one has been able to do that, with the closest being Infiltration and Daigo himself.
Maybe we should remove sfv from the conversation because that game was trash
@stephenm707 Sonic Fox doesn't count, he's not good at real fighting games. MK and DBZ are nothing but shallow gimmick games.
@@theshadiest7109 lmao. There is always that one guy who calls other games "not real". I bet you won enough tournaments in both the "real" fighting games and "not real" ones to say that.
@@theshadiest7109what the fuck is a "real game" what a gatekeeper ass take. Just say you don't like the game, just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less real. All fighting games now have gimmicks anyways
What makes you the goat? Be named Justin Wong. Bam.
😂
😂let's go Justin
In all seriousness, to me he's like Shroud but with fighting games. You put a few random fighting games in his hands and he probably picks it up faster than most people.
Great video!
It’s nice to bring history to the table because all that we see now, even in terms of skill or prizes was made by the late players.
Congrats on the video!
Dont remind him@@xiaoxu8447
Nice shout out for Ryan Hart. Knew him back in the day causing havoc at Roberts Arcade, Croydon, England. Mad talent 👏🔥
Same I use to beat him in tekken on George Street maybe we met
Agree with JWong's list. You have to stand the test of time to have the GOAT status. IMO, you also need to be able to have more than one franchise under your belt too because otherwise folks like Xiaohai should be on the list for just how dominant they are in their respective game. Every one of Jwong's list satisfies these criterion.
Great video Justin! Couldn't have said better. Putting respect on those names of people that literally sacrificed a lot just to "play videogames" back in the days with basically no financial support and often not even emotional support 😅, it's really important. We wouldn't be at the place we are now, AAA games and massive communities if it weren't for those great players that created memorable moments that hooked many other people to play those games! LET'S GO JUSTIIIIIN ❤❤!!!!
Evo Moment #37. You and Daigo pushed fighting game scene to the world. It still brings people together and makes them awe. Another great player for me is Qudans, although he might not have as many titles and wins in tournaments, but he was also a huge inspiration factor like yourself Justin. For me GOAT is not only a person with most titles but the one that puts something on the world map, and as you said yourself Michael Jordan will always be a great example here. For me you are the Michael Jordan of fighting games Justin, and Daigo is Scottie Pippen. Thank you for all the content and all the memories. Big love from Poland.
Criteria for me:
Consistency in multiple games/eras ,Impact, an era of dominance, major wins,define an era. Which is why Justin is the GOAT of fighting games
That's why Tokido or Ryan Hart are name that deserve the same kind of praise.
I mean Tokido literally taught the US how to play 3s and especially Urien.
@@Genkaku The top 3 all time GOAT of FgCs are a toss up between Justin Daigo Ryan and Tokido
Justin, Daigo, Tokido are the reasonable answers.
@@adamquenano8563Ryan is clearly 4th when compared to the other 3.
No lies detected
Winning in multiple game series 2D and 3D makes someone the goat. As with everything, context is key.
For me, an important part of a fighting game GOAT is presence over multiple games. Yeah there are a couple really good younger players, but thinking back there were multi game rivalries and dominating players over decades.
Even one like fchamp who maybe does not have consecutive first places among capcom cups or whatnot did consistently fight in top 8 spots from SF4 over UMVC3, Street Fighter x Tekken, Killer Instinct, SF5 and now into SF6. That's some competitive history and consistency that the younger folks have yet to build up.
People don't talk about Ryan heart cause he's quite. But man's a beast his story is crazy.
I really appreciate your views and commentary in this video and on this subject. The respect you show to the top players of old and the humbleness of not wanting to brag about yourself really shows how great of person you are, my good Sir.
"Mashes the 🐐 button" is just perfectly said. It's an overused term in general nowadays. People will have a good run with a couple Value Menu visits and be like "these Wendy's spicy nuggets stay goated" lol. Jokes aside, im glad you brought up other fighting games. Not all FGs merit being in the conversation, like i wouldnt think GOAT if someone said they won Rise Of The Robots nationals. But focusing just on SF while also saying FGs broadly juat shows lack of awareness to competition elsewhere. I understand the hype building though. For GOAT convos, i personally value consistency over various metas in one game, and the ability to play multiple FGs at high levels. Kind of tough to compare different eras too. Still a fun convo.
Thing is you're on this list no matter what
That key part that you said…. Impact in the scene. You my dood are that for me and many that have grown to love you and your continued contributions to the scene! Not to mention you’re a badass at the genre as a whole.
WHAT MAKES YOU THE GOAT IN FIGHTING GAMES?
Being named Justin Wong is a good place to start...
This is the most honest conversation I have ever heard about this issue.
Being a GOAT is not just winning tournaments. Evolving the meta with your play, dramas, complete domination of the opposition, remarkable moments and your brand overall makes the GOAT.
Yoooo, I'm liking these slice of life episodes; they allow for interesting discussions and you learn an thing or two
The curse of youth..to be blind to everything that came before you..Good video..SALUTE
I'm glad you mentioned Ryan Hart in this list. I loved watching his Sagat in SF4 and met him at a London Arcade one time.
We all stand on the shoulders of giants! That's how progress is made. If not for the old guard, who played their games to the max, we wouldn't even have iterations of the newer games. The old guard's passion and flag-bearing for their games is what eventually let it spread to the general public. Thank you for all you did and still do, Justin! You deserve your spot on Rushmore!
Bruh i love this video
Not only is it informative, but it's accurate and doesn't throw shade. It really does feel like it's made with love for the fgc but also with love for accuracy and history
Justin's sentiment is great. Let's just say this, Daigo from 3rd strike to his streak in SF4 to start was not just considered the goat, before the loss to Poongko he was untouchable. SF4 had the highest skill cap of the SF games, had tons of these old guard legends, and Daigo at that time was a cut above. Tokido on career has probably caught up to him, but the GOAT conversation in fighting games begins and ends with Umehara and I don't even think that's debatable.
His reign in mvc2 is what made the biggest mark. Legend.
I agree with you 100% on this topic. First, Ryan Hart deserves way more respect in this conversation than most people give. Recency bias is real and people always overreact with recent results. Mena may very well end up being the GOAT one day, but he ain't there yet. JWong, Daigo, Sonic Fox, Ryan Hart, and Tokido are probably all in the top 5 for me right now. JWong versus Daigo is maybe the hardest decision out there in terms of #1 and #2.
This discussion about who the GOAT is will never have a definitive result. Let's just recognize the great players.
Daigo, Tokido, Justin Wong, Ryan Hart, Punk, MenaRD, XiaoHai, Arslan Ash, SonicFox, Knee, Kazunoko, GO1, Problem X, JDCR, Fujimura, Fenritti, BAS, Alex Valle, John Choi, Nuki, sako, Xian, Momochi, Fuudo, Saint, Dragon, Wawa, Mago, Nobi, Haitani, Ricky Ortiz, Leffen, Hungrybox, Sandstorm among many others...
Great vid, the need for fgc history and commom context is super necessary, example in 2000 - 2010 what were the fgc majors in japan/usa aside from evo, who won? Who were contendors, what were the games, what was most popular.
Who were the commentators, how many people entered? How many people watched? All these questions and more need amswers for context
I feel like dominance in multiple games is necessary to be in the convo. I think Arslan is almost there. He conquered T7, but I like to see him finally dominate KOF15 or the next Fatal Fury.
Absolutely agree. A lot of the new heads do not know about the lore of the FGC. Fighting Gods of japan, who came to the US and showed the world how to play proper third strike. Yun and Urien specialists showing you how to use their super arts. And of course Ryan Hart. The original Ryu of the 3D FGC. Travelled all over Asia to play the best and learn. All the way back in the 90’s there are stories of him playing best of 50 sets. Against the best in Japan and Korea. And of course Daigo needs no introduction, famously playing capcom fighters and even GG. Sonic has shown in multiple games in modern era that he is capable. Being dominant in one game is good, but more consideration is needed before throwing the word GOAT around.
The GOAT is in the heart of the cards
Im putting you in that category no man has ever mad me cry but seeing you win that mvc trophy again is what inspired me to play
Infiltration is definitely up there too. He's won evo in three different games, and the only person won SF5 evo twice.
I definitely agree what is crazy is that you never really hear anyone mention his name on topics like this despite what happened dude was on the path of being the best in SFV.
Infil is also up there
Yeah most definitely, he's dominated so many games highly competitive scenes, Sfiv, Sfv, Tekken X SF , Tekken tag team, samurai showdown and i think theres one more
Yes i hate how he has been forgotten. Infiltration is an amazing player.
Amazing points. I think a lot of the time the term “goat” is tossed around without the actual meaning being taken into consideration. Loosely tossed around as a “that person is really good” - I have a hard time taking it seriously as the “greatest of all time”.
Your thoughts on Alex Valle? I consider him one of the goats of fighting games. You Diego Ryan is definitely up there and probably Snakeeyes.
Bro I’m not trynna glaze but you. Like when people think of fighting game players they think of you. I’ve actually been watching you compete for like my whole life( I think you’ve been doing it for at least 21 years)
Great respect to Justin for mentioning Xiaohai and his accomplishments in KOF
Overall impact on the scene takes you, Justin, on the mt rushmore at the very least. Thank you for being humble but you really helped carry the FGC
Evo moment 37 makes you the goat. You were there so you know better than anyone lol. Jokes aside you, Daigo, and a handful of others are truly in that conversation. Old fighting game players can definitely compete now but I question how many of these newer dudes could hang in the games with harder execution.
In no order: The goats for me are the following 10 players:
1. Justin Wong
2. Daigo
3. Tokido
4. SonicFox
5. Ryan Hart
6 Infiltration
7. Xiao Hai
8. Arslan Ash
9. Leffen
10. Momochi
Mena’s record does not match the records of these 10 yet. Maybe someday.
Arslan Ash won 4 evos ,twt finals, 2 combo breakers, thaiger uppercut , CEO , Gamers 8 and uprising in korea in tekken 7 and made top 8 in kof 15 in combo breaker while playing tekken 7 and wining in tekken 7 and playing street fighter.
Arlan Ash only dominated in one game the same way Infiltration dominated SF4 and SF5 in 2015-2017. I wouldn't put him at goat status.
Even in tekken, he's not the goat. I'll reserve that until he wins 8 and 9 the same way other goats like JW, Tokido, and Sonicfox could win across multiple generations and genres.
@@bboygenetics9882I wouldn't put Sonicfox anywhere near them until he starts winning major tournamnets at actual good games with the best interenational competition. For Ash to smash the best of Korea and Japan at a hard game like Tekken while still being able to compete with the Mexicans at another hard game in KOF makes him worthy of a mention.
@@atuls55 idk man. I just can't put him in the discussion when he's only won in one game. If he can win in KoF, then we can have a discussion. As of now, I wouldn't even put him as a tekken goat. If he dominates 8 and 9 too, then sure.
@@bboygenetics9882 Even then, Sonicfox isn't worthy of the conversation when Tokido dominated more in more games of more genres. Sonicfox is basically good at games only NA plays bar DBFZ and even DBFZ, he got caught up pretty quickly and doesn't compare to the french domination for example.
@@Hazakura-in I don't think Sonicfox is goat worthy either. Just using him as an example since he was the best in multiple games. Gives him a better argument than Arslan
I used to play and watch a lot of Tekken Tag back in the day. When I think goat my mind automatically goes to Jang Iksu. It might be easier found now, but back then at least, I can't recall any videos of him losing a set. Again I'm not confirming he's undefeated, but back then through the minimal tournament footage we had, and the Korean weeklys, he at least went on an incredibly long winning streak through top competition.
I didn’t hear that name ( jang lksu ) in forever to the point it left my memory bank for a second until you mentioned him again you my friend know your tekken history
Awesome video Justin. I still think you are the goat not only from your results playing but also what you have done for the FGC as a whole. Glad to hear your praise for Ryan Heart. With the influx of players a ton of great people get overlooked, including him. Gotta check the mashing on words. Stoked to hear you commentate at redbull kumite!
I agree with you Justin in this list, yet I want to mention someone who truly deserves some recognition: Bunbun-maru. He is basically the true OG, the guy that when in the west people were playing fighting games almost only for button mashing or simple fun he was already the modern equivalent of a esport player and a TV celebrity in Japan in, like, 1994. He is still respected and admired in Japan to this day.
Nah, you're not overreacting. These goat labels are stupid. It's only gotten worse due to social media and these young clowns in a rush to label a "goat" in order to exercise their hyped idolatry.
I remember when you were with EG. But weren’t you also with Empire Arcadia for a short time? With Sanford, Yipes and that dude with the Nintendo power glove that was good at Tetris back in the Marvel days.
calling a dominant sf5-sf6 player the goat of fgc is criminal lmao. you gotta at least place high in 3 different fighting games to be considered 💯
It's Daigo. He's good in most of the Fighters. Daigo can play Darkstalkers and ALL Street Fighter games. He beat Alex Valle and Justin and his parry skills became an EVO moment on a Capcom game. The G.O.A.T is Daigo. Sorry but not sorry. Check Daigo's resume....
Great vid and really goos points. Calling Mena the goat of ALL fightning games is a crazy shout.
Jwong was 2 years younger than me when he got into the scene and crushed it and this was a great breakdown and commentary.
3:05 - Yeah, all the best players back then basically only got that good because they just really liked the games. You'd end up at a net negative going to tournaments sometimes, but people would go anyway just to meet up or challenge themselves. There was never any money in fighting games until very recently. I remember when COVID hit, and some of the top SF5 players acted like there was no reason to even play when the prize money dried up. Where's the love for the game at?
I wanna see a tournament with leffen, sonicfox, arslan, menard, punk, jwong, lord knight and go1 in a fighting game tournament where they fight in multiple fighting games. Whoever wins the most fighting games wins the tournament; also comment more players that are good at multiple fighting games or fighting game goats that I gotta add
Also add Tokido and xiao hai
What makes you the goat to me is you're willing to put in every night single fighting game have a full-time job put only 4 hours into your training session show up as a nobody never been heard of. And pop off and win consistently in one video game or even place like top five makes you one of the goats.
Justin you are the goat because how much work you put in everyday from playing at home to playing in arcades you have a resume built on your legacy in history.
I think to be honest every one of us can be the goat if we are willing to put the time in and be passionate about the game I'm really hoping I can go to Evo and meet all of the goats there possibly sign up in the tournament as a casual and see how well I do learn for that experience think it even better I always know that is always going to be that person that is better than me and that's why I want to train very hard and fighting games that I love and have a passion for. But let me stop you happen you guys have a wonderful day if any of you guys want to play some fighting fighting games that I own hit me up sometimes
J Wong.......You are the GOAT!!! Thanks for also becoming a Canadian!!
You are so calm and humble, and yet here you are dropping facts and roasting everyone just like that. You the GOAT!! haha
I appreciate this video. Context and history is key and the great ones of today stand upon the shoulders of legends who paved the way. More attention and lip service should be given to history, and also games that don’t get as much attention, especially at EVO. Vampire Savior has some legendary players around the world who likely will never set foot on EVO main-stage, which is a shame.
finally someone mentioning sonicfox, like hes not my goat but my god the disrespect in some of the discussions
Sonicfox Is insane. Simultaneously being #1 at DBFZ, Skullgirls and MK, 3 completely different games with completely different mechanics, is unbelievable.
I think Arslan Ash is definitely one of the goats for sure. Granted, he succeeded in mainly Tekken 7 but it's freaking Tekken that we're talking about here. The amount of talent that game has is insane.
What makes you a goat is not only your accomplishments, but also paving the way for others throughout history. Also, the community and commentators has pushed their legend beyond what was inside the game. Finally, their consistency of success. Like sonic fox, making low tier characters look amazing in MK. Not only pushing them to only to the limits, but actually winning. Another example would be Maximillion, not only because of his fighting game knowledge, but how he intertwines it with the community itself. As far as overall fighting games no I think he’s an amazing player but he doesn’t have an era like punk did. I would even put yipes in there from his amazing gameplay, actually winning and becoming a top 10 commentator in top of that. Or H box in melee, and how you still carries it until this day. I think the term goat is extremely over but I’m just a scrublord commenting on a UA-cam vid.
Even Sonic Fox is light years ahead of Menard in terms of GOAt of fighting games
100% agree with your breakdown. Maybe we need to change the rhetoric use another term in place of G.O.A.T. since in the case of Menard (who is an unbelievably skilled player), its not accurate to say "all time". Its easy to say goat but maybe greatest of recent time(G.O.R.T.), or greatest of last decade (G.O.L.D.). A lot of disagreements in my own experience stem from a word meaning different things to both sides of the argument. Usually the first step in resolving conflict would be to pinpoint the word and agree on a meaning or insist on being more specific if it is to vague in description. Just my 2 cents.
There's not gonna be many that can touch you and Daigo though. As others have mentioned - moment 37 is the catalyst for what allowed the fighting game genre to blossom and survive since then. I actually picked up SF6 because moment 37 was recommended to me out of nowhere in my yt feed. I hadnt played a fighting game since xmen vs street fighter in 2002.
Thanks for being my personal 🐐 jwong.
Xiaohai really do be beating people with one hand random select though
There are multiple GOATed players in the FGC, and Justin is definitely one of them.
Criteria for fighting game goats is this. 3. Rang. How long have they been playing for 12 years or more min. 2. Accomplishments. What have they won or consistently placed in the top 32. #1 They have to be great at more then 1 game that matters. You can't be just a Street Fighter Specialist or a Mortal Kombat Specialist.
Ryan Hart has more tournament titles than most people have entered. Justin Wong has NINE Evo titles, across multiple games. C'mon bros
This was a great video and topic. That word gets thrown around carelessly these days. I am glad you brought up Ryan Hart, that man may just be THE goat. Definitely debatable, but it's crazy to me that anyone that just started in the last 5 years can already be called a goat... Keep it up Justin.
People also sleep on Zakunoko. He won DBFZ world finals, Street Fighter evo or Capcom Cup, and multiple Guilty Gear big tournament. 8 times capcom cup finalist and so much more
You, Daigo, and Tokido are the goat's my opinion
Great points, Justin. As great as Mena already is at Street Fighter, that’s only 1 franchise. You gotta dominate for like an entire decade with basically no losses to be an FGC goat while playing only 1 game, imo.
Also I’m glad somebody with reputation mentioned Sonicfox as being on their Mount Rushmore of fgc goats. Too many tournament wins across multiple games to not at least get a mention in the conversation
The level of play pioneered by the OGs is why competitive fighting games are capable of being the world spectator phenomena they are. Always respect. PS: of course JWong is on the shortest of short lists. Straight lifetime polygamer savant and many times champion.
Daigo, Jwong, Infiltration are the 3 at the top of this topic.
Great video to put the 'GOAT' debate in perspective.
I think it is easier to pick goats for specific franchises though.
Knee is the obvious choice for Tekken so far. But Arslan Ash who put his entire country's scene on the map can surpass him if he keeps it up.
Justin had great points here at the end and i felt the same way before even hearing him say it. I would also put Leffen up there for consideration. He's another player that has been top tier in multiple titles. To me having the versatility to be at the top in multiple different games is the only way to consider some of these players a GOAT in the fgc.
I consider EVO the pinnacle of fighting game championships so, who won the most EVOs again? Yep. Justin Wong.
So my Mt Rushmore is JWong, Ryan Hart, Tokido, Daigo.
Fair points. I agree. Recognizing the players on other games was also really cool.
I think goat in fighting games it goes based on accolades, how many different fighting games you won globally, major tournaments, how you changed the game.
I think Justin you have accomplished all these things including a large fan base. Sako is also good with Big bulleta hood in dark stalkers
My Top 5 Goats for Fighting Games Category.
1.Daigo
2.Justin Wong
3. Tokido
4. JDCR
5. Qudans
I agree with your ending words. Most people use the word goat to bring one person up and bring everyone else down. It is used too much to ignore all the accomplishments of everyone in the same category.
Tangentially, the root tier yet still rapidly improving commentary and hosting skills make JWong also something bigger and different than the GOAT, and that is THE overall pick for fighting game ambassador of Planet Earth.
Great Vid. Agree with everything you said about the GOAT topic. I wonder why no one ever brings up or Mentions Carl White(Perfect Legend) as one of the GOATS?? PL has 3 Evo titles. 2 back to back in MK and 1 from Dead or Alive. Plus he's won CEO and other tourneys,etc. Alex Valle,John Choi, and Bas should be mentioned as well imo.
yeah the Ryan Hart Disrespect is crazy to me. Ryan put Sagat on thr map post Vanilla in SF4. His brought new tech and set ups to sagat AFTER the Nerfs. And even during SF4 Hart was considered an OG
Thank you for saying this! You're on point! People are stepping on history!
It's a sign of the health of the FGC that GOAT is so debatable, and I think this video hit on everything I would want said. But I think you have to say Justin Wong is the MVP of the FGC in terms of his contributions to both the competitive scene and the overall popularity of this genre.
just as the younger gen players probably have higher skill ceilings larger size tournaments, I think we should consider that the old gen players had very little resources to learn and practice compared to the current gen. It's already hard enough to get good at a fighting game using practice modes, youtube tutorials, pro match footages, and even an AI ghost you can fight these days, but the older players had to innovate, learn, and practice all that in isolation using arcade machines. I think new gen players are amazing and great, but old gen players had their own struggles that they had to face and i think they deserve a lot of credit.
Justin has all this information and its great that he shared it. Looking at things in isolation is easy, but taking everything into consideration is hard.
2:44 The new generation don't know how much harder execution was in older games (compare 3rd strike and sfv, or melee and ultimate). Plus, the competition now is filled by many casuals but back in the days it was full of monsters even at the first stage of the tournaments, pools where hype.
Now we don't find this much hype before a top 32.
Money and number doesn't automatically mean higher quality or higher level.
Man Justin dropping knowledge on the young and un informed...
Thank you for showing how having a platform can actually be informative.
The older players are the goats imo. The third strike mvc3 and tekken players. No one in specific just everyone. Those are some of the most difficult games to play and to be masters at it is good enough for me
Teach em' the Roots, J-Wong-Sama!
They gon' learn
I too always use basketball as an analogy for fighting games but their trajectory run parallel to each other.
You're definitely in the conversation. Once upon a time I'd have said Infiltration, but he ruined it. This topic would be a great episode of Triple KO.
You make a great point with New player that won some tournament. For me being a goat is to be able to have consistency from year to year over a decade then you could get a name. But when it's about just like 3 to 4 years winning for me it's not enough.
I agree 1,000%. Thank you for posting this rant. As an almost 40 year old FGC head myself I need these young people coming in to know the history of how this genre and international community grew from our $100 tournament grand prize winning seeds. 😂
Wong GOAT
Goat debates come down to stats a bit, but its usually more subjective than anything. We all have our own GOATS, and for me JWONG is top 3 and i've only really watched his UMVC3 career first hand. Didn't experience any of his Street Fighter history first hand.
Honorable mention to Pepeday and his El Fuerte , would watch him anytime
Good talk, and thank you for introducing about Momochi and Sako. I didn't know that.