Common Braking Technique Mistake on the Track & How to Fix it
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- Опубліковано 5 гру 2018
- Learn a common braking technique mistake often displayed on the track. Find out here. For more advice and to pick up your FREE track riding Ebook, head here…
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In this video we take a look at a common approach to braking that less experienced riders display, and I talk about how flipping it on it's head can bring massive gains in the braking zones in the way of lap times, as well as in how you feel.
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Wow. The content in this video is revolutionary. I do exactly what is being explained not to do.
Same.
excellent points, great video
my last session at California Superbike School we addressed this, there were a lot of people doing exactly as you mentioned. They had everyone brake hard at their individual corner entry markers and slowly everyone saw what was happening, the staff then slowly moved everyones corner markers closer to the corner and you could see the riders having a light bulb moment and brake way way later. So the jist of it was at the end of the day everyones entry braking marker was now significantly closer to the corner.
Can you do a video on being in the right gear for the right corner or how to figure out the best gear for any given corner
Also sit up and become a sail into the wind when braking hard . I guess that's a bigger advantage for us tall guys
Correct, for us wider guys as well.
I guess it depends on your area/weight ratio..
Dammit now i wanna go to the track. LOL I think i may have this problem Ill check it out next time i do the deed. Picking up a race bike this Monday actually so...yay.
Thank you for the upload, very informative. I am an avid track day rider on a R3, rolling off or braking is a speed killer for low powered or any powered motorcycle. After many track days, I have learned to do my hard braking, late, straight up, and trailing off before any corner tip-in. I do not use rear brake on track. With that said, the front tire can do 100% of its grip either braking or turning, it can't give you 200% of both at the same time. So my braking is hard, deliberate and momentary as far into the markers as I am comfortable with. I trail off brakes to get to a desired turn in, bike levels off nicely and make the apex.
Don't you feel a bit nose heavy / diving since you're braking hard with only the front? Is this a new R3?
Dhanaywad
Awesome video this is what I’ve been exactly looking for and it seemed as if it was made for me. I was struggling too much with losing speed on the entry and this will be an eye opener
My first track days are at the end of the month and I feel like I’m already ahead of the curve for a “beginner” (on the track) because of all your videos. I have a lot to learn and your videos have helped! Thank you.
Still track riding?
@@motomigos 100%! Im ready for April and the 2023 season. I might even be coaching the newer riders which I’m pretty pumped about. Have about 30 track days under my belt now.
I realize I was doing exactly that approaching a fast corner which led to more corner entry panic attacks. I couldn’t fathom the concept of trail braking cause it meant keeping the heavy braking inside the corner. When I realized you have to do the heavy braking before and then apply less pressure it was mind blowing!
Great information and graphics. Thanks
Thanks mate!
Enjoy the bike life🤙
This information is very helpful, thank you! I will try this the next time I'm on track.
Agreed
Super useful, as always! Many thanks...
This is such a great tip
Its so useful
Once again, thank you for such useful information. This has been one of my bad habits.
Thank you..Thank.you..
That was such an eye opener when I saw the video in your course!! I was exactly doing what you described and turning that approach on it’s head helped me to understand that I can be more relaxed just before the turn point. Cheers, Mike
Cheers Mike! Glad you say an improvement 😀
Yup, finally it will teach alot to many.... Specially those who slide in corners 👍👍
I’m an intermediate rider, while I have progressed, I still haven’t become confident enough on the bike to get through my current thresholds. Exiting corners I feel I am doing well, it’s my entry/braking into corners where i lose a lot of time. I have seen my data from my Aim Solo, the good progress and the bad habits. These videos have been great in helping me implement new and proper techniques. Think I will try a Superbike school for some extra help. Cheers!
And thats why the first thing I do at new tracks is sort the brake markers a corner at a time
Braking related but more race specific... In my very first race from the grid, I had an awesome start and was in pole position, I began braking for corner 1 at my usual braking marker and ended up at the corner extremely slower than what I should've been doing because I didn't have all that straightaway speed (100mph vs 130mph). I spent the rest of the race trying to catch up. No one taught me this.
Maybe a bit late, but for anyone reading this: at the warm up lap start, just do a regular race start up until corner 1, and guess where your braking point will be (as Pan said, later than your usual braking point). With that info in mind you can now have a better estimation of where to brake after the race start. After that, it's just business as usual. Luckily for me I was told of this trick before my first race start :)
Good video thanks. I have started working on this for the last yr. I have found that in my practice sessions I work both at 75% and 100% of race pace. By practicing race pace I race to the corner more. I also have found by focusing on the more technical corners with hard breaking I am able to run the faster corners smoother . My bike is a 250 cc so momentum is everything.
You brake on a 250? :)
@@nsant Haha yes i know but my home track is thought of as the most technical track in north America.csbk.ca/index.php/2018-schedule/atlantic-motorsport-park We have a former AMA racer that clocks a 1:14 on a two stroke 125 . All good fun .
Excellent video, as always. From my experience, I once hit hard&late on the brakes, but did not release throttle completely. So I stuck with right hand grip 100% brakes approaching the corner but still some throttle on with my thumb. Basic error and never to be repeated again. Before braking, make sure pulling brake lever would also mean closing the throttle completely. That was my lesson.
Same happened to me aswell. I was already very tired and muscles were done. So i unfortunately didnt close the gas to 0 and started braking.. ended off the track but i didnt crash.. never again :D
You shouldn't close the gas fully mate keep rpm up enough maximize engine braking and so don't lock rear wheels. I'm no professional but I'm yet to be out braked on any track day including in advanced group.
@@mattmann6328 I've never locked rear when braking. I practically do not use rear brake. Even if you close gas completely there is "idle" rpm of ca. 1,500. Rear is often up in the air, occassionally touching the ground. Downshifting with brake on and throttle blipping is something I need to work on as rear may lose grip. Can be managed a bit using clutch.
@Matt Mann, I would not recommend keeping the throttle open during braking. Unless I've misunderstood you, keeping the throttle open will actually counteract engine braking because you are driving the bike forward. You want to be at high RPM, yes, but that should come from correct gear selection. Unless you mean blipping for downshifts?
@Zdravko Levko, I did exactly that on my 3rd track day and crashed 👎
I've never given it to much though before. I remember my first track day I definitely fell in to this category but soon saw others passing me and braking harder and firmer I just picked one I matched else where and copied his braking which is more like you stated. But the thing is there is so much to take in and learn were all there for a laugh so enjoy it and only concern yourself about your performance
Hello Dan, would you use this tecnique with a dry clutch as well? Even when downshifting multiple gears?
Yep, guilty of the poor breaking technique. Lets try to improve
Man U so good
This is a good video. It may be worth adding a disclaimer for beginning riders. For them it is important to dichotomize quickly closing the throttle off when upright before applying hard braking (a good thing with no risk) versus "chopping" the throttle off in other circumstances (especially when beginners are leaned over).
Tried this on my most recent track day. Wiped 2 seconds off my pb but I'm still a novice
Would also like to see a vid on approaching a corner during a slow/fast bend and how to properly brake harder and safer while in a turn/bend.. if that makes sense
Cheers
As someone who is yet to enter a track day, i find it terrifying to enter a corner too fast. This could result in me breaking too early. However, that can be dangerous too if there are other riders on the track who do not break early and may be surprised by someone right in front of them breaking a lot earlier then necessary. That's why i'm not confident enough to try a real track day yet. I need more experience with my bike.
I can remember my first race, how scared i was thinking of all the things that could go wrong but when i got my suit on sat on the bike the flags got down it was all feeling mate, you stop thinking and let the feeling flow you just need to experience it to believe. just go out and do it experienced riders behind you will see that you´re inexperienced they will watch the moves you make just go believe me, you will always be scared of this and that untill you did it.
No need for that man. Pick a good organization and pick the rookie/beginner/level 1 group, preferably with proper theory and practice lessons. You don't need a fast bike, and you will start with the most important things first. Get to know the track, where are your braking points (these will change once you build up speed, but that will come eventually), where is the steering in-point, where is the apex, ... The braking is a HUGE part in being fast, but there is more than enough space and time to train these in the beginner groups.
You said that you need more experience with your bike. I can tell you one thing only: go do trackdays with your bike to gain experience with your bike.
Don't overthink it
Something I still have to improve, too much coasting.
This is so me 🤦♂️
can u make a video on hard braking with throttle blipping on dry clutch
@@zbyh2011 but how to do it step by step? e.g. how quickly to shift down on track......when I blip while braking hard, I tend to release pressure on brake lever....there has to be a technique to avoid this..... So I asked if this channel can make a step by step video about this topic
I don't use that method, Sanal, so it's not really a video I plan to make. I had similar issues to you early on, then I was told by a coach not to blip and that's the technique I stuck with. I did a video on it here - ua-cam.com/video/Yk7GrMINMmM/v-deo.html
@@LifeatLean thank you :)
Sanal Abraham what bike do you ride? I never blip but smoothly release clutch.
@@zbyh2011 ya.... i'll try that thanks :)
Ik this video is not the most recent, but how does this translate into trailbraking/squaring off?
Love the videos but had my only set of wheels stole from my house so now I have no bike and no way of improving my riding.
Sorry to hear that buddy 😔
I have a question, why and how the MotoGP riders and pro riders wobble their bike while braking before a corner?
What do you mean by wobble?
My problem is I use way too much rear brake, making me come in sideways (it doesn't scare me too much, but I know it's wrong) Have you done a video covering the percentage of front Vs rear braking needed when on track? Some people say don't use the rear at all.
I don't use the rear brake, Mike. Jorge Lorenzo didn't either on his Yamaha, so if you don't feel you need to then you're in good company.
@@LifeatLean nice one! Thanks for the reply. Trying to take all of your advice onboard ready for next season. My bike is in the garage as we speak getting a front end brake overhaul. New EBC pads, and discs and servicing the calipers and new brake fluid front and rear. New chain and sprockets and an oil and filter change.
@@LifeatLean Yeah but the late great Nicky Hayden used massive amounts of rear brake and so does Casey Stoner, I find it takes a bit of momentum out of and reduces the gyroscopic effect of the rear wheel, also when I get back hard on the gas I find a little drag on the rear brake helps with stability on corner exit, definitely makes me smoother, not sure if it makes me quicker though...
You don't keep two fingers on each lever for sports riding? They taught me to do that and to start applying the break as I roll the throttle if I need to.
Are you talking about street riding? Personally I only touch the brake lever when I want to use it.
Yep. My bike school said: two fingers on each lever always. You just save milliseconds when you need to break or disengage the transmission. It was a standard motorcycle licence course, but all the guys were active riders and some still competed. I read on some forums that it's a common approach. Once you get used to it, it becomes a reflex - you always grab the bars this way, even when you sit on a bike at the dealer's. I noticed in many videos that a lot of people do it. Lately I noticed Tom Hardy in Venom for example.
Keeping two fingers on each lever continuously puts a lot of weight and pressure on your wrists. If you’re riding for hours, you’ll feel pain. At least that’s been my experience in Los Angeles riding to the canyons then having to deal with bumper to bumper traffic on the way home. When I’m at the canyons, my fingers only touch the levers if I’m shifting or braking. But on the way home, fingers are always on the levers because of traffic.
Prince Valencia who puts weight on their wrists riding? Sounds like you need tank pads.
Do this in normal street concrete.... Kaput
Usually, I find your videos informative, approachable and providing quality information to riders. This time, I was disappointed with what you were showing with your brake graphs.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by 'corner entry', but I'm going to define it as the turn-in point: where you take the motorcycle off-center at corner entry. This seems to be what you mean as well.
Let's brake this down:
"When talking about the initial application of the brake there’s only really one main point to raise, and that is don’t snap the brakes on. By snapping the brakes on you are risking the suspension bottoming out which will increase the chances of the front wheel locking up (though it should be said that if your suspension is set up properly and is working correctly it shouldn’t be bottoming out)."
It's correct in that 'snapping on' the brakes can cause the wheel to slide, but it's not because the suspension is bottoming out, it's because there's no load on the tire. You haven't compressed the suspension and the tire carcass, so you're asking a small contact patch with very little weight on it to do too much work. - ua-cam.com/video/Of1XHMKOuxQ/v-deo.html The first 5% of braking is one of the most important parts of your braking procedure and should be practiced every day you're on a motorcycle.
"You would see a steep curve from initial application to full brakes;" - Correct! However, you need to take the first 5% of brake pressure to deliberately load the tire. Allow the fork and the tire to collapse before asking it to do work.
" the line would then stay at the top of the graph while you scrub your speed off," - This is much less flat than your graph suggests. This is where you're using your eyes and depth perception to set the entry speed of the corner. This part of your braking _must_ be adjustable and having a flat line suggest a bad habit - not being adjustable on the brakes. This is something I work with a LOT with students that are moving into the advanced group. They build to XX% brake pressure, then leave the lever there, not making fine adjustments to their braking as they set entry speed (See Lorenzo video below). This results in over-slowing if the pressure was too much, or under-slowing if the pressure isn't enough. At the very least, it's a squiggly line.
" then as you get closer to your turn point you would see the line come back down the graph slowly as you taper off the brakes" - NO! You have to have significant brake pressure at turn-in for the motorcycle to have the correct geometry to.....turn in. Look at MotoGP (or any professional race seires you like): They are at or near the bottom of their fork travel when they turn-in. Depending on the radius of the corner, this brake pressure may be traded for lean angle very very quickly, but at turn-in, it's significant. The 'magic' number for sporty bikes is 120mm of travel, +/- a few mm. As an exercise: Put a video camera pointed at your forks, and use a marker to mark 120mm of compression. If your suspension isn't tremendously out-of-whack, if you don't see the fork around that mark, you're turning in with too little brake pressure.
The first graph, if you add adjustability, is much closer to proper braking than the second. Specifically, it shows significant brakes, though not maximum, at turn-in Without this, the bike won't turn well, and the tire will not be loaded properly. Just like 'snapping on' the brakes, you're now dealing with an under-loaded front tire, which can lead to a low-side. More low-sides are from under-loaded rather than over-loaded fronts.
Proper brakes look like a 'shark fin' with turn-in happening just after peak brake pressure. But don't take my word for it, see if you can get a peek at data from a BSB rider, I guarantee that their brake graph does not match your second graph.
Another point I don't think you addressed, but is critical to riding properly, is how adjustable braking _must_ be per corner. The graph will look the same, but the time scale on the bottom will be adjustable per corner. Short radius corners require very quick (but not abrupt) actions, while long radius corners may require a longer (time-duration) procedure.
ua-cam.com/video/gTT7mYbSY-8/v-deo.html - Notice Lorenzo maintains almost all of his brake pressure up to corner entry, and only dissipates it slightly to take the motorcycle off center. Also, notice that at maximum braking the brake bar isn't just pegged, there's adjustability happening. As he builds pressure, it's quick, but it's measured. He builds the pressure
You can find other, external shots of MotoGP riders with their forks buried in the travel as they turn in. Marquez will frequently _just_ set the rear tire down as he turns-in. Huge brake pressure at turn-in
ua-cam.com/video/G6eqCBXOL8I/v-deo.html - America's best rider coach, Ken Hill, talking about brake pressure and data when working with a top-level MotoAmerica, and Superprestigio winner J.D. Beach.
ua-cam.com/video/m0l0nULCeOk/v-deo.html - Another video with data of proper braking techniques.
Hi Hawker, thanks very much for your feedback. I'm sorry I've left you disappointed with this video, but if you'll allow me to provide a little reasoning hopefully you can go away a little less so. Also I'll say here that I'm merely offering my view, not challenging you, and I say that simply because I often see people become defensive when a different viewpoint is put forward.
Ok, so the first thing to note is who this channel aimed at. Most of my content is aimed at newer riders of the track. Those who have little understand and are looking to put a good fundamental base together. Also, it's worth noting that a VERY wide variety of riders (on a wide variety of bikes) will watch these videos. Lastly, my content has always been about short videos with a few valuable keys points to take away, rather than a complete and comprehensive breakdown of riding technique. With that in mind hopefully the rest of this will make some sense.
So for the most part I actually agree with everything you've said. When looking at the very best riders on the very best machinery and tyres, the way you describe braking is the end goal for every rider wishing to go as fast as possible.
That point of the graph is to give a few key lessons. 1) Build up brake pressure, 2) Get the harder braking done earlier, not later, and 3) the brakes should taper (trail) off as you approach and enter the corner.
I think we can both agree that lessons 1 and 2 (while the graph is overly simplistic) are fine. The issue is 3 - the timing and severity of the trailing off of the brakes. Again, your standpoint is correct. For maximum potential this will be much closer to the corner, and the trailing will be quicker with it being more linear with lean angle as the rider enters the corner (for a healthy majority of corners).
However, it is remembering who this channel is aimed at and who could potentially consume this content that creates the type of graph you see here. First, I feel that riders should learn how to trail the brakes off in a controlled and safe way before attempting to take that trailing effort deep into a corner. I simply wouldn't feel comfortable telling a new rider to maintain "almost all brake pressure" to corner entry, not because it's poor technique, but because it has a high probability of creating a panic situation. Learning correct technique THEN pushing the boundaries is my preferred approach.
Second, there's going to be a rider out there who watches this video who rides in the novice group on touring tyres which are 4 years old and have ridden 8000 miles. Telling a rider in that situation to perform deep and heavy braking like Lorenzo or Marquez is not going to end well if they sit on the fearless side of the scale. For this and the above reason I wanted to offer a safe starting point that riders will naturally improve upon over time as their understanding and feeling for grip improves.
So again, you are correct in what you say in terms of what it means to be fast in this part of the track and how much more severe braking will be at corner entry, but this and my other braking video were never meant to be “here’s how to get maximum potential from corner entry”. Perhaps a “higher level” corner entry/braking video would be good in the future to make this point more clear.
The only thing I disagree with in your comment is this…
“You have to have significant brake pressure at turn-in for the motorcycle to have the correct geometry to.....turn in”
This is a notion I’ve seen growing over the last couple of years, that you need brakes at corner entry for the bike to not only work properly, but to be safe. This is fundamentally untrue.
The proof? The many many corners around the world that don’t require any braking effort which riders get through just fine without losing the front end. In fact, I personally ride a particular corner where you’re actually still accelerating as you tip in, and you only roll the throttle back slowly as you lean the bike over so you don’t lose too much speed (because it’s such a high speed corner). In my 10 years of riding and watching racing at this track I have never seen a front end wash out in that spot.
The crashes you see from unloading the tyre are, in my experience, all it very high lean angles. You see it a lot in MotoGP where they are releasing the brakes at very high lean angles. Couple that with a rider that likes engine braking on the low side and you have a recipe to cause a front-end washout.
At track day level though, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rider lose the front while entering a corner off the brakes. It’s anecdotal but I actually rode with very little trail braking for my first 2-3 years on track and got to a pretty good level by track day standards too, all without incident at the front end.
So I personally think that this notion that we NEED the brakes for a motorcycle to work and be safe are false. Can they help in many situations? Absolutely. Will you extract more potential from many corners by using them like that? Hell yes. But to believe you need significant brake pressure for a bike to steer and be safe is setting yourself up to meet barriers later down the line in my opinion, purely because it begins to create a universal belief that isn't wholly true.
As you are rightly showing braking is a much bigger subject that what I’ve covered in these videos, and while I will never say my content and delivery is perfect, hopefully you can begin to better understand why it is the way it is.
Sorry this went on so long, that wasn’t my intention. Thanks again for your feedback and have a great New Year!
Are you Captain Joe’s brother? (He’s a pilot You Tuber)
Haha, no I'm not. Not unless I have a long lost German brother I don't know about.
Depends though. If I want to out brake other riders sometimes I'll go by them with rear wheel in the air. And I'll have to go off racing line to do so but then once in front I'll steal there line because they will sometimes be carrying slightly more corner speed then i. but then once I'm in front I'll go back to braking early and carrying more corner speed as normal. I ussaly follow a slower rider for a couple of laps to see a pattern in there lines and where I think I may be capable of making my braking attack.
I hope you're talking about racing and not doing that to people on track days
`10 second video- brake harder later then trail brake into corner. Don't 'punch' brakes.
The only bike I have ridden at the track is my 899 Panigale. The braking issue is made worse due to how much speed (170 mph on some tracks) it can reach at the end of the straight. Half a second too late and I could find myself running off into the grass and crashing. Had I started on a 300, it wouldn't have taken me that long to get comfortable with hard braking. Easier to brake from 110 mph than 170 mph.
As a fellow Brit from the south east who didn't go to private school, it still makes me laugh (but respect) the effort you put into sounding your t's. Subscribed and loving your channel, sooooooo helpful 👍
Please change the music!
probably should or could have been a 1 minute video if you actually wanted to make your point without waffling