How A Horn Speaker Works - Exciting Horn Experiments!
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- Опубліковано 24 гру 2020
- Basically, a horn increases the sound output from a speaker. It does that by reducing the mass of air directly in front of the driver allowing it to move that mass of air more efficiently. This happens more effectively in the lower frequency range because it also stops the wave from propagating outwards to the sides. The highest frequencies are mostly unaffected because they beam directly forward.
That extra output gives you more flexibility when you are designing the crossover. That lower end boost may allow you use a lower crossover point than you could if flush mounting the tweeter.
However, the horn can also dramatically change the way the speaker sounds, so that's something to keep in mind.
Horns also work for midrange drivers and woofers, but have to be much bigger.
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Do horns make you.... excited?
:D
Yes John, very exciting video :) but most of your content is exciting and enjoyable. Merry Christmas
More horn content please! Been currious about good ways to build these.
it gets me very, horny
Andrew bird uses horns speakers in his live shows it’s pretty unique. Recently did a small live show with one heavily featured.
I don't care much about speakers BUT this has to be a top video on the subject on YT. I hope it goes viral; a great video!
I'll settle for enough views to attract some people who are actually into the subject. Losing 100+ subs with every video I publish and no new blood coming in.
@@IBuildIt Yikes. Well, I guess Rome was not built in a day? Maybe some kind of collaboration with an actual audio channel would help. I am sure you have already thought of that, though.
I fully expected a period like this where I'd lose subs and the views wouldn't be stellar as the audience realigns to the new subject. I figure it'll take a few months at least to establish.
I've not found collaborations to be particularly effective for this. The gain is minimal at best.
I personally really dig "horn" loaded drivers when listening to Jazz & Whiskey Blues since the horn can really amplify the frequency(s) in which it was designed for...
Horn design is a very tricky thing..! The wrong angle & or radius will dictate the bandwidth in which the driver will produce predominantly...
Baffle diffraction is another huge issue to over come..!
@@IBuildIt I’m a new subscriber, audio fan and fellow timber tickler!
I’m late to the John Heisz party so going through a lot of your videos on both channels! Top job on both channels!
I'm glad people like you are taking the time to do these experiments. It gives us answers without the work :)
This is interesting thanks. I'm far from an audiophile but I do plan to rebuild the housing for my speakers in the next year or two. I appreciate seeing the techniques you're using
John, I'm enjoying the heck out of the new direction for this channel. Also, Merry Christmas!
I would imagine the sound more evenly distributes out of the circular shape than the straight sided one. Great video!
Hey John! Loving the "new" channel!!! Keep it up... Learning a lot. Love your experiments!
Thanks for another great video, John. I found it so interesting that you could demonstrate the effect of the horn shape with the SPL graphs. I’m looking forward to hearing more about your crossover designs and what you look for when integrating a mid or woofer with the tweeter.
Hope your Christmas was full of happiness and cheer!
Loving this new direction... Inspired and learning lots
These videos have been really interesting to me. I'm planning on a couple of speaker projects in the future. I'm planning on a set of monitors for my desktop computer and also following your design of the tv soundbar. Keep it up!
Especially given the inexpensive low power tube amp options out there now, I love to see people working in this area. I have done horn for many years now. I have a fairly big 3D printer that I have used for a couple year now. Fun stuff!
I have a mentor who is in the high-end horn industry and the geometry of the horn can make quite a big difference. Some drivers are well-suited for other geometry‘s than other ones.
I would also recommend rounding the edges at at the mouth. Reduces diffraction.
Cool video. I learned something today about why the horn makes it louder. Thanks John!
It's the same principle behind why cheerleaders use megaphones.
So cool, I always wondered about horn tweeters, it makes sense they would be louder or more efficient.
The more I learn about horn loading, the more I like it. There is just so many advantages. Better time alignment, lower distortion, better dispersion control to match woofers, fewer parts needed in the crossover. It's all pretty awesome.
Yes so much technically good about horns.... I personally just don't like the sound of them, but like so much in loudspeakers there's always compromise.
John, love your channel the woodworking and the audio
i LOVE your tools.
the material of the horns might play a part it resonance within the horn.
if you change the material, you might see a different curve pattern
Real good presentation and lesson on horns. Thank you John!
Horn throat diameter determines the higher frequency response. Hence, the lack of amplification after 15 kHz. Of you use a 1" compression driver, you can potentially extend the high end response
Great video! Thank you for doing science in an understandable way.
Thanks for this video, very use full 👍
John! Thank you so much for your channel! I can’t wait to watch all your videos. I have already learned so much from you in just a few videos. THANKS!
This is a great channel. Living the dream man! I hope to have my own personal custom listening room when I am older.
Great video, and your workshop is gorgeous also!
Wow thankyou for the quality and info!!!! Wish all YT videos were up to par with this!! Please keep them coming dude!!!!
I am now subscribed
Nice Test !,...thanks.
With Tannoy Dual Concentric full range speakers, the tweeter and the bass cones both shared the same magnet. The tweeter used the bass cone as a horn. Their adverts use the term "Single Point Source" as the origin of the sound waves, this in turn gives a more cohesive sound stage. The Tannoy Monitor Golds were extremly popular with recording studios during the 60's and 70's.
Just came from your other build it channel. Can't wait to watch more from this channel and maybe learn a thing or two.
More on this!
I haven't tested myself but the say is that you need hard diaphragms since softer ones start to wobble at higher frequency thus not being able to produce higher notes especially under horn load. Sounds plausible since I haven't seen compression drivers with soft diaphragms. Anyway, excellent video. Appreciate it! =)
It’s strange how horns have come to mean mainly tweeters.
Backloaded full range horns is what I think of, and what I consider taking the greatest benefit of the idea.
Horns introduce directionality which is something that should be accounted for.
With your build skills you should be able to do the holy grail of a Voigt Corner Horn.
You needn’t stick religiously to the Lowther driver or the exact topology though. Plenty of modern tweaks to the idea.
Great video
I wish to know the same principle made by you on a 4 inch fullrange speaker.
Thats would be nice to see.
merry christmas, John!
Thanks, same to you :)
That plastic horn, you made, looks really good.
Need a small stuffed dog now John... to listen to his Heisz’ voice.
Muy buen diseño y da buen sonido
Very interesting stuff! How are you accounting for your room reflections in the measurements? I know you’ve got treatment on the ceiling, are you doing anything for the walls?
Holy conical!
Just ran across your channel !! Thanks for the video !!why can't this guy be my neighbor !
I'd love to see you build a L.A.B. subwoofer, it was a project from the Live Audio Board several years ago. It's a large and complicated folded horn subwoofer that has two special twelves driving it. It would be an amazing woodworking project, and an amazing audio project. I'm sure someone would pay good money to own it after you were finished, so you could probably turn a nice profit on it.
I'll be building a new pair of speakers for my listening room, but nothing big enough to have a folded horn. I don't have the space for the big stuff :)
We used to make paper cones around our earphones in school to make a makeshift speaker worked pretty good
Instead of freehand, cut a hole in scrap big enough for router to ride inside. Use double sided tape to stick it down. Perfect circles everytime. Save templates
Nice woodworking vid
Makes me think of Klipsch.
I wonder if the plastic horn is more prone to got into resonance with the signal due to being lighter weight, which might explain why the curve is higher but also it had wider swings as the frequency changed. I wonder if the outer edges of the plastic horn were held in a stiffer frame, would thr curve be lower but perhaps more stable
Merry Christmas and God Bless you and your family John!
If anything you have a good start for a led desk lamp... Just saying... Lol
LLAP
Awesome. Thanks for the reminder of the significance of horns. Does it matter as much as it becomes more distant i.e. less focused/bigger area to cover e.g. outside venue?
I think it's more correct to say that the horn changes the output energy of the speaker to be more directive, and less isotropic, thereby causing more gain directly in front of the speaker and less off to the sides. It does this by physically impeding the sound waves (via the wood structure of the horn) and forcing them out forward. The total output energy is the same in both cases, it is just being redistributed.
In your images for your explanation, the dome actually has the same amount of air contacting its front surface, and therefore the force needed to move the dome is the same in both cases as F = PA where P is pressure and A is area. P in this case being the only variable which could change the force required to move the dome, which should be the same in both cases.
Great video though!
Directivity is just part of it. Impedance matching is the main mechanism that boost efficiency and in this video I tried to describe that impedance match improvement in a way that most could understand.
One thing of note is that you still have to take care not to lower x-over point too low. Don’t forget that the cut off limit for crossover is about one point five octaves above tweeter resonance to avoid significant and very audible odd order distortion which rises as you approach resonance.
I really like the response a lot better with the horns because they drop off around 13khz
Hi! Great video!
Is there a mathematical equational relationship between the area of a horn's mouth and its decibel output? Or an equational relationship between the length of a horn's throat and its decibel output? I need it for a project I am doing.
Thanks!
i think the curve and the plastic surface bounces better than the wood which have more damping property ...leads to higher lower end freq output...but does doing this change the sound alot..like cupping or even conical amplified..
They are more efficient which is good for the environment. But I wonder about flatting the mid range with an equalizer until the volume becomes in balance with the high frequencies. Perhaps then you would get the same efficiency as with a normal speaker,?
Paul Klipsch was right!!
I have reservations about horn loaded speakers. They add discoloration to the sound. Similar to cupping your hand on your mouth while you speak.
1:49 - one reason why plastic became popular - forming.
the plastic horn probably owed it to its smooth and gradual profile.
if you use die-cast alloy the resonance are more higher and louder the sound
Ok but what is the spl at 45 degrees off axis by comparison? Great tests btw, greatly appreciated
During the time of iPhone 4, I found a purchase a silicone horn adapter for novelty's sake. Now I cup my hand around phone speaker areas in case I need to hear something better.
Interesting...curious question...why did you change the running on your sled when you set the saw to 45 degrees
There seems to be renewed interest in horn speakers. Horns have had a reputation ad sounding very bad, but new ( old) designs have solved a lot of those problems.
Anyone have a vid on how to calculate these angle for the horn, please?
OMA SPEAKERS is the company he is referencing. I make conical wave guides for my pro speakers. A wave guide works by trapping and directing the sound into a narrower range- it's sort of an acoustic lens. They sound more natural than a full blown horn which also does the same, but compressed the sound even more leading to greater coloration of the sound. I use aluminum sheet metal to form the wave guide. Also, the conical shape sounds much more natural than other shapes. I TYPICALLY GAIN BETWEEN 4 AND 5 D.B. OF OUTPUT.
I was always told. if you can blow a good bubble out of a horn it will sound better.
Would phase plug in horn help equalize thee response
I enjoy listening sound of violin solo via horn but a bit uncomfortably large ones.
Is there a video or article about that plastic horn you made? Curious about that process.
I have the pictures and the plan was to write an article about it, but never got around to it.
John, are you doing anything to compensate for time alignment based on the distance from the driver to a theoretical zero timeline? That was one item we worked on a lot in the electronic crossover programs for our horn loaded arrays (JBL HLA) back in my big rock days... I'm wondering if the difference in depth in your speakers is negligible in comparison or if it could benefit from compensation.
Adding the horn to my office speaker physically improved time alignment, since it pushed the tweeter back and closer to where the woofer coil coil is. And I think for a a pair of small bookshelf speakers listening in the nearfield, any time alignment mismatch is not going to be great enough to make an audible difference.
Go to Google Patents and type in Folded Horn Acoustic Guitar. This is USPTO Patent #10,777,172, and has two five foot long (exponential) folded horns inside an acoustic guitar. This provides more low end, and much greater volume, but the natural frequency range on the soundboard remains. The sound is captured by a microphone, amp, and two speakers inside the guitar. Compression chambers tuned to 89 Hz feed the horns. Similar to having two small Klipsch or other speaker horns inside the guitar, battery powered. Enclosed speakers and divided guitar chamber prevents feedback. A pickup can be blended with this also. This new patent is in the prototype build stage. All tonewood, no plastic or carbon fiber. Its good to dream!
Well, the quickly put together wood horn is neither exponential nor parabolic, no wonder the plastic horn is louder!
For anyone planning such a project, run a Roundover bit on the wood cones' outer edges. That way you get a slight output boost where it matters the most.
For viewers not convinced about the whole horn thingy, think about it this way. Driving a typical 30% efficiency 10w speaker with a 10w amp produces the equivalent of only 3 watts in sound output. Horn loading a tweeter makes it way more efficient. That's like free MPG. Who doesn't want it?
Unless you hate the shape of horns.
Personally I love horns 😂
About the horn reducing the mass of air directly in front of the driver causing increased output, that could be a good way to put it for that kind of horn, which is one having a constant slope to the sides. If the horn's flare varies with the distance from the driver in a way such that the diameter does not vary linearly with the distance from the driver then the horn can have the opposite effect of holding in the sound.
This is what trumpets and other such wind instruments are all about. The non-linear flare makes in effect for a more defined endpoint for the column of air vibrating inside. Trumpets have purer pitch than coronets or bugles because the shape of the bell stops more sound from coming out, and that is how those instruments are defined, by the shapes of their bells (and not by whether or not the instrument has valves... bugles can have valves).
While you don't have a long column of air to vibrate inside the speaker, the curvature of the horn would still greatly influence output.
The plastic one has more of a trumpet like flare, the sides aren't straight.
I was wondering if the effect of the plastic horn was due to a smoother transition to the external air which provides for a better impedance match than the relative sudden transition offered by the wooden horn John made?
What's happening if you are not directly in front of the speaker?
Fun
Can we get higher resoult above 15K if we use a crossing between a phase plug and a small horn? I have amt4 pro and i think they are fast enought but the size or whatever make a poor resoult on the upper end above 10K. I WNAT TO FIX IT. I will have a 3d printer here next week
If you're reading this and want to hear one of those wooden speakers in person, go to an Andrew Bird concert.
So the inventor in me wants to see a horn made from a centre rotated tesla valve... (so each valve curve forms concentric rings around the tweeter, moving out away from it) so that with each vibration it sucks air in from outside the horn, but won't let any back lash out. I think the design may work better for a subwoofer though. Likely a job for a 3D printer.
I'm curious about this, but not enough to try it myself.
I have a question for you sir! Based on the theory that the sound level increases by placing a horn in front of the tweeter, would this also work when using a horn in front of a midrange or a subwoofer? The car audio enthusiast in me has some ideas spinning...
Yes, works for everything that makes sound.
I would use two tweeter design for larger speakers. One for 1-10k and other one for 10-25k .
man, you're good with wood processing! great stuff
John, at 2:25 how much of that sweep is room response? I've always swept at near field because I don't have a proper testing room. Thoughts?
I ask because the ampI heard costed 15000 I guess maybe your opinion on a less expensive option if no I understand that your busy thanks again wood rocks
The downside is it makes the speaker/tweeter more directional.
So that's how those old timely megaphones work?
Exactly.
How about dispersion/beaming?
More details in the video description.
lmao, how many channel do you have?
👍
Recognize the "naaaah" at 01:10 :D
If I was rich, I'd buy you a cnc ... I guess the sound bounces off the plastic more efficiently or not impacting the sound wave vs wood horn. Shape too as you mentioned.
If I had the free space for a CNC, I'd get one. Or more correctly, make one.
@@IBuildIt , sure would love to see that build, buy the plans, try it out, etc. thanks for the reply. Have a good one.
Before you said you were hotgluing the big horn to the twitter, i cringed because I thought you still had the pin nailer in your hand rather than the glue gun.
Q? What does it mean that they are almost even at abouth 15k?
What does 15k mean ?
Yes i am new to audio.
John...have you ever heard of Comb filñters? Do you wanna see what they look like? Just pay attention to the measurements BEFORE you smooth it out !
Just after 6:26, I started hearing a song in my head: ua-cam.com/video/cJadVfzmOn0/v-deo.html
That's the CD version of Games Without Frontiers by Peter Gabriel. Other versions don't seem to have the sweep.
I have some image dynamics horns in my car..
Casting plastic? Man, who doesn't wanna see that process happen and documented.
From my experience... horns distort the actual 3D image of the recorded music. They are good for concert and club speakers, to help amplify the volume levels and overall dispersion spread... But as for Crystal Clarity and Perfect Audiophile Accuracy.. they are Not good for that.
Im going to add, that Graph sweeps only tell part of the story. They show frequency output.. but they do not tell you how they will actually sound when playing actual music. A lot of audiophile headphones, for example, are specially tuned to enhance the experience: For example, to reduce harshness of the upper range, that certain other headphone drivers produce (making them painfully fatiguing, after only a short period of listening).
They also dont, (as Ive posted above).. show the distortions of the intended 3d image / soundstage that occurs, due to the horns shape, and how the waves are altered when bouncing around the horns sides... and then beyond them.
Keep listening to horns... Eventually you will see... Also try $100 iem buds.... And high voltage headphones.... "Coloration" of music is not necessary evil..... Wine is all about coloration....I have heard zero distortion transducers and I can assure you.... me and everybody around said they musically sound like crap....Q = 0.7 is normal sounds in nature.... High Q > 1.3 and low Q >0.5 will musically sound unnatural....
Klipsch horns are 4 sided
Correction: Horn loading a dome tweeter (or any other) makes the driver work HARDER (yes) against the air. While a flush mount driver works into a LOW pressure open environment, horn loading it confines the air into a column of HIGH pressure air, which is then dispersed. Hence the descriptor "Impedance matching". Simply put, horn loading causes the driver to transfer more kinetic energy to the air. This in turn increases power, but even more importantly it significantly increases detail and conveys more information making the sound more life-like. Horn loading is more about sound quality, than power.
Acoustic impedance, like electrical impedance, is a tough concept for most people to grasp, so I simplified the explanation while sacrificing absolute accuracy.
These days it's about perceived sound quality, but back when they were first being developed and used it was more for power. As in high powered amps were expensive, more expensive than bumping up the efficiency of the speakers.
@@IBuildIt No, it's not a tough concept to grasp, if you understand it and provide examples for the layman. If I blow into the mouthpiece of a trombone, the sound might travel across the room. If I connect that mouthpiece onto a "Ricola" horn (Mountain or Alpine horn) and blow with the same pressure, the sound will travel across the valley. That's impedance matching. The more "easing" the high-pressure, low-volume of the mouthpiece into the low-pressure, high volume of the surrounding air, the more efficiency.
That's probably why when we go to concerts the sound guy is unaware that the sound coming out of those big stage speakers with horns needs to be adjusted for a higher than expected output on the higher end frequency. Not always but a few times I thought my ears were going to split. Dam drunk and uneducated soundguys...lmao
Sound men.. Better a little too loud than not quite loud enough... Not loud enough gets you fired...
50ed.
why don't you just model and 3d print?