AIR-BAG HELPER SPRINGS. ANY GOOD? | ASPW 4xOverland
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- What do I think of airbag helper springs for 4wds? Welcome to "4xoverland", ASPW's overlanding and 4WD channel. The world's first global 4WD adventure motoring channels.
#overland #4wd #ASPW #4WD_adventure
GEAR WE USE: www.4xoverland...
NO BRANDED SPONSORS FOUND HERE. SUPPORT THESE SHOWS:
/ andrew_stpierre_white .
INSTAGRAM: / 4xoverland_com
ANDREW’S VIDEO COURSES: beafilmmaker.com
ANDREW'S PHOTO ART PRINTS: tolowagallery.com/
WEBSITE: 4xoverland.com/
PODCASTS: bit.ly/4XOPODCASTS
ANDREW’S 4X4 BOOK: bit.ly/Four_Whe...
ANDREW’S AWARD-WINNING MEMOIR: bit.ly/Torn_Tro...
Watch more videos :
1. 25 YEARS INSPIRING THE WORLD'S OVERLANDERS
• 25 YEARS INSPIRING THE...
2. BEST OF 2019 on 4xOverland.
• BEST OF 2019 on 4xOver...
3. WORLDS LONGEST 4WD TRACK
• WORLDS LONGEST TRACK-1...
4. TOURER vs OFF-ROADER. I went too far towards Tourer.
• TOURER vs OFF-ROADER. ...
5. 4xoverland Live Q&A
• 4xoverland Live Q&A. F...
4xOverland is the world's only public-funded global 4WD adventure off-road motoring channel. Established in 1996, it is hosted by well known 4x4 writer, explorer and filmmaker, Andrew St Pierre White.
**Thanks For Watching This Video**
Airbags when mounted like in 10:40 is an absolute nightmare for the frame. Shows not the slightest understanding of swelling/oscillating forces. IF at all, the load must be distributed to a maximum of frame length. And then still the basic failure is: the vehicle is overloaded and will brake.
Very common mistake: big cabins on a pickup. Its not working, needs stronger springs, will break when used even in light offroad driving. It will. You'll completely lose the car in the midth of your trip because the frame will be welded to get you home finally and you have to replace it.
Wrong, go look at how the Ram 3500 comes from the factory with the air leveling suspension. Airbags mounted exactly like in the photo.
I disagree
@@travisschultz874I don't mean factory settings
@@travisschultz874. Yeah . Built for it FROM THE FACTORY . Engineered for it . Not an " Add-On " . OE equipment .
I have Air bags fitted to my Hilux and I think they are great. I agree with Andrew that most chassis breaking is because of airbags but when you speak to those people you would find out that they overload their vehicles and pump the airbags to the max to prevent the car from sagging at the back. I use my Hilux for a daily driver so my OME suspension is set up for daily driving and medium loads but when I have the back loaded with our diving gear, some other basics and have the caravan hooked up I use the airbags to support the leave pack at the back. I never inflate the airbags more that a quarter of its capacity but find that it give additional stability while towing and I can control the sagging at the back to ensure the caravan in running straight. This does not affect my ride comfort as my Hilux drives like a dream loaded or unloaded so having airbags can be beneficial but it requires self restraint not to think you vehicle is now all of a sudden capable of carrying load it was never designed for. Thanks.
Hi Andrew,
Airbags are a hit and miss. We have used them for over 12 years in mining vehicles. With that knowledge and seeing what fails I use this method.
I figure out what rate springs the vehicle needs when fully loaded, I remove around 15 to 25% of that spring rate then rate my mechanical springs to that.
The last remaining 15 to 25% we fit airbags to carry that extra. This give you the best balance I believe with the drivability and ride.
It also allows x3 sections of the chassis to carry it as even as possible.
😎
G'day Ty, love your channel (even though you're a Effy lover!!! hahaha).
You're probably right when it comes to trucks with a bloody good chassis like yours and mine (I have a Chev Silverado 3500 srw...single rear wheel).
However, when it comes to the little butter boxes that most people buy (Ranger, Hilux, D-max etc), I would urge caution about the "3 points of contact" idea. Those chassis aren't built with the idea of having upward force (ie: the air spring) applied directly above the axle location. Fifteen years ago I had a Patrol with 6.5 Chev V8 diesel, cut-down to a dual cab and managed to crack the chassis because I over-engineered the rear springs....and they were COILS so actually meant to have the load placed on that section of the chassis.
The 15 to 25% overload idea has merit, but too many numpties would still manage to just keep adding more weight and STILL bend the chassis I reckon.
Air bags in coils make perfect sense if your occasionally towing a heavy caravan or similar. They do not affect the ride if used correctly. The trick is not to inflate the bags to their maximum pressure and overload the chassis. You don't need to pump them up hard to get back to normal ride height, just settle for lifting the back a little to recover some of the suspension travel. I never inflate mine beyond half their rated pressure. I wouldn't use them on a leaf sprung vehicle though, as the chassis isn't designed for the additional load point.
Wait! The chassis in a whole is made to distribute the load onto the suspension. Yes there are fixed points, but other points can be used properly to help relief the pressures of heavy loads.
I have both air spring helpers in coil and leaf spring applications. They are both adjustable with a special pump and the ride quality is perfect. In empty I lower the pressure to let the springs work, and loaded I increase the pressure to help stop the saggin so my headlights are not pointed up.
When done properly with quality parts air spring helpers are the best on and off the road.
I load two dirtbikes into the back of my defender 130 and with the ome long travel springs and air helper bags in the springs the ride is pleasant all the tine. In my tahoe I load it full with kids, gear and tow and the air bags in the coils give the back a boost and ride quality is not harsh at all.
I am running 20psi empty and 30psi fully loaded. Everything is happy, and in the last ten yrs never broke anything, if anything my shocks last longer and my swaybars also.
All areas of the chassis rails are designed for carrying load. In fact adding pressure to other areas spreads the overall pressure reducing the likelihood of failure. If your load is going to break the vehicle it's going to regardless off wether you fit an air again setup
Well said. I would put money on that the breakages are from people who have overloaded the vehicle then overinflated the air helpers to deal with the overloading.
Sorry Andrew, I can't help but try and pick holes in your argument.
Air bags on my Leaf patrol are mounted to where the bump stop was. This area would be engineered to handle the severe forces that are put through the chassis when bottoming out.
Marty from Perth
I'm using airbag withy Nissan Armada when towing camper. Greatest addition to my setup. When I'm not towing I'm running bags 2-3 psi...
I run 10 psi in mine. Not quite enough to notice ride height change but with my caravan on amazingly stays level.
Good topic and good comments. Like all things, you really need to be clear about what it is you're trying to achieve. First,a lot of 4wds have very poor GVMs. Trying to carry a tonne of weight in a vehicle that can effectively only carry a few hundred kilos is nuts. Go and buy a truck! A lot of 4x4s carry a lot of equipment permanently. You need to get the correct suspension set up for this permanent load. A slight increase 'may' be helped by air bags. It's a fine line. The other issue is that a lot of coil spring suspensions have a very long bump stop which must be removed to fit the air bag. These are not a bump stop but are actually designed as a spring/shock/suspension component. Why? The usual issue with manufacturers cutting costs! Removal of this is another can of worms. Air bags for towing? Another can of worms! Depends what you are towing. The weight over each axle and the towball must be distributed evenly and correctly. A weight distribution hitch may be required to equalize axle loads. This is a complex topic needing a lot of analysis for each situation and expert advice to get the correct and safe outcome.
For coil sprung rear axles, we should remove the bump stop to install airbags. After few months the pressure inside the airbag drops and then you are bottoming out the shockabsorber. This happened to my 4R/Prado 95 rear and the top mounting plate of the shockabsorber (which also holds the top side of the coil spring) started cracking off the main chassis.
We have had airbag assist coils in our 100 series for many years trips including Cape York & latest one 12000ks + Western Australia including Gibb River Road Kimberley still going strong with no issues
I have airbag man bags in my Patrol ute rear coils. My set up is different, my ute has a 450mm chassis ext and the chassis is braced a lot stronger than stock. I run 20 psi when my van is hooked up. 250 kg down ball load.
I love your opinion. I’ve watched this vlog three times now. I’d like your opinion for my specific case. I believe you’re talking about built overland vehicles. I have a FJ cruiser. I love the ride. When I tow my bushwakka trailer the rear sags. Say 15-20%. Are airbag helpers still not a good idea? I desperately dont want to ruin the amazing ride I currently have. Many thanks.
I have airbags in my 150 Prado with a 2" lift. I dont want heavy duty springs for everyday driving. I have some light weight drawers in the back and that's it when not touring and I dont notice any difference in ride at minimum 5psi. When it comes time to load up to go away I put 20psi in the airbags and off we go. car sits level and handles great. I guess if you pumped em up to 60psi it would not handle/ride well at all, but if you are doing that then you have the wrong suspension setup.
Had air bags in my 76 very nice as I use them when I use it to go camping. But took your advice on the 79. And had the suspension totally redone with a full load and it's a great ride.
SPRING RATES!
Man, I always say it, a true suspension builder / car builder for stance knows his Spring Rates and understands the relationship between Shocks/Dampening and Springs.
I’ve built and also rode inside cars that are extremely comfy and responsive, never air ride always static coilovers. I like all suspensions, they all have their place but just to explain how great conventional works when done right.
I know you kinda hate the Land Rover Discovery 4 platform and its air suspension... but I love being able to level my rig with the xlifter module. 4.5 degrees of pitch and roll of self levelling. No stacking rocks or maxtrax... I just press a button and have a level bed, tailgate, etc every time
Air bags kinda give you part of that capability. I would have thought you would be into the luxurious feature of levelling via air.
Yes but the Discovery chassis was engineered from the get go to use the air bags. This is not the same as adding them on later, especially to springs that may have already increased load carrying capacity.
I rather just sleep on a slight angle than mess around with air leveling or rocks....
@@RyanYoxo uh, it’s one button push lol. whatever man. I swear any mention of anything and someone has to say something like this. i’d rather slam my head into a wall than hang out with people with that attitude. you do you man.
Iowa LR4 attitude? Me not being a sook is an attitude? Mate no need for fancy gear just deal with it, want comfort go to a hotel.
I think the dislike of that system is the reliability and complexity making it difficult to fix in remote areas.
No reputable 4wd shop would/should recommend airbags for a constant load carrying situation. Airbags are idea for varying loads, vehicles that tow occasionally but are usually unladen. Suitable suspension is always the answer for vehicles with constant load.
Do you have a suggestion for the current monster Max video released by whistling diesel yesterday?.... He needs some advice because of his suspension just literally tipping over and never rebounding due to his "sway bar being to small"
Andrew. Logical and sensible advice. Surely simply adding air bags to compensate for not fitting correct spring and shock absorber rates in the first place is completely wrong. For safety surely you need to fit springs and shock absorbers set up for maximum GVM. Alternatively consider adjustable shocks for the times when only lightly loaded. Great explanation thanks👍.
The information in this video... ON THE MONEY!
I drive 10 ton rigs at work and they do the airbag inside the spring set up and my gosh the ride is terrible! Vs the older rigs without the bag-in-spring setup
The only scenario where air bags ruin the ride is when you are so over loaded that you people severely over inflate the air bag to make up for it. There's a place for air bags and most people that use them use them incorrectly, but when they're in the right application they're amazing.
Lots of blablabla. Fab Rat just demonstrated how air bags should be fitted properly in his dad's 200% refitted extreme offroad tow truck. Ofc the fram has been modified to cope with the extremely different loads a tow truck will face every day. As such, his airbags serves their purpose adjusting to flexible GWMs.
Well i've heard it all now, the chassis at the point directly above the axle has been designed for incredibly high impact loads as the springs compress as a pothole or washaway is unexpectedly hit. Just imagine the 900kgs or so on just one rear wheel whacking into the "bump stop" at high velocity as the standard shocks and springs of any vehicle give up the ghost at this time of impact. Yes Andrew the "bump stop" is a lump of rubber on many vehicles, some actually have an internal hollow and have an extended shape to soak up and slow down the velocity of the impact on part of the chassis well and truly designed for these loads. I reckon go have a talk to an actual chassis engineer and ask him/her about bump stop impacts and the possible high velocity loads this point is designed for. Worth a video maybe to remove the airbag stigma which they do not deserve. Remember many of us out here do not need superflexible leaf springs for superb offroad articulation which airbags definitely reduce, been there done that. We need and adjust our suspensions in many ways to give us that superb corrugated roads (and towing) ride for thousands of outback highway kilometres, been there doing that.
Go stick well designed airbags on the vehicle (maybe ones that do not permit shockers to bottom out at low pressures), run at lowest pressure possible when unloaded and bump it up as required to maintain a level ride when towing. Air bags at bump stop locations do not cause most chassis breakages, you should know many other issues are well up the list before the airbags take the blame, driver, speed, depth of washaways, mass of vehicle, load positioning, etc.
Airbags don't reduce articulation. Unless you didn't put the cross over tap in.
@@jarlnieminen4307 After market air bags are individual units and don't have interconnecting pipes (apart from the tiny inflation hoses).
@@SC-nv8ve Without wishing to be cynical, don't expect any engineering from the air bag manufacturers. See the video on my channel for the story of how and why mine fell apart prematurely. Badly engineered.
Watch this for an engineers opinion; ua-cam.com/video/pMJfwsGhDNw/v-deo.html&ab_channel=AutoExpertJohnCadogan
@@defendermodsandtravels actually a lot of kits have a t fitting to inflate both bags via the same valve. This setup allows air volume to flow between the bags to transfer weight. One wheel goes up compressing the bag and the other gets the air while it expands down.
.
Of course it can be ran individual which is better for load handling.
I do not disagree with most of what you are saying.
However I would add in my experience with air helper springs as a way to temporarily add spring rate for temporarily heavy loads while retaining the stock suspension for mostly empty use and more comfortable ride.
So number one if an air bag is rated for 70 80 lb of air pressure doesn't mean you can use it once you get above say 30 in most airbag applications it does lock the suspension out. So if you need more than 15 os so pound's roughly than you need a low distribution hitch for a trailer or heavier mainsprings for a camper van type thing. Secondly the bigger the bag the more air volume and the cushier the ride at pressure. One way around this when you have to run smaller bags is to run air tanks in line as close to the bag as possible with a big line between the tank and the bag this acts as a reservoir and the same amount of air pressure will give you more Kush a softer ramp up rate so to speak.
Correct springs to carry the load and correct shocker to control the wheel travel
Spot on Andrew We finally agree on something lol
I have a 78 Series Troopy with the Terrain Tamer 4 leaf Parabolic springs And Terrain Tamer Shocks. The ride was perfect even when loaded or towing my 2.2 Tonne Caravan. I upgraded my Van last month to a 2.6 Tonne Van and the ride was crap when towing. So I added the helper airbags amd with just 20-25psi and it’s made a massive difference so they do have their place. Not sure why Andrew is using 3 leaf spring when the 4 leaf works perfectly.
Nice New haïr cut wow
Going to have to call BS on the 10:40 part about airbags. The Ram 3500 with FACTORY air leveling has airbags in that exact location....... So while I wouldn't use it to increase load carrying capacity, it's more than capable of holding the load at the factory height.
The dreadful squatting stance. From an engineer’s point of view it’s not a big deal as long as at high speed the negative rake doesn’t invite too much air wedged underneath the chassis and causing lift at the vehicle’s front thereby reducing steering control.
As for the rear end violently bottoming out at full load; stiffer springs will sure take care of that at the cost of less stability at high speed, harsher ride (especially for those passengers at the back), higher stress concentrations in the chassis and worse off road ability in way of shorter suspension travel at the back. To solve the problem consider hydraulic bump stops
Your kinda a hardass, but you make some good points. Makes me winder how stupid people can get w/suspension. It is an amazing thing when its dialed in, just right.
What do you think about setup for 200 series? & be able to tow 8k +/- 1+k?
Any good options for 200series integrated rtt conversion?
The best explanation I’ve heard. Excellent.
Great educational video, that.
I love air bags
springs have a lifespan. if your always gonna be fully loaded airbags will extend the life of your springs
Keep it mechanical, airbags air too vulnerable to damage , Inc level sensors and compressor etc....better to have the right springs and shocks.....
Thats literally what Andrew said in this video
@@ridef0rlife just agreeing with him, having had experience of air springs on a RRS....lovely ride, expensive fix....
Good video. Airbags for towing only - simple. Otherwise spend some of that bolt-on toy money on sorting your suspension.
I find the airbags on leaf springs eliminates body roll very significantly.
It does. By limiting vertical wheel travel. Good at speed, not good off-road.
@@4xoverland I find my hj61 Sahara with 200kg on the roof (tent & 660w solar) , has much better handling both on & off road with the airbags @ 25psi. If they aren’t inflated…it’s like a beanbag on wheels.😂
Informative video Andrew, enjoyable to learn
Hi, have you had anything to do with the coil spring over Leaf spring rear , with the cross body bracket that takes the load point to arms that go down to the std leaf mounts? I have a close friend with a early Hilux, with the kit , it works brilliantly.
I find anything designed to cater for excess weight you have to make sure where the attachment points are, is within specification for the excess weight..
reason why shit fails because it under engineered carry the load you want to carry on it..
if you are towing something at 2 ton or higher, average ball weight is 200 kg, if you are towing 4.5 ton you're average ball weight is 450 kg,
If what you are towing has a 1.8 ton/1800 kg ball weight would 180kg..
average off road considered caravan getting between 3-5.5 ton average ball weight 300-550 kg
75-150kg would roughly 750-1,500kg
the bigger issue with utes, is to add structure before you decide the weight capacity you want to hang off the back and what to tow without damaging the chassis...
Thoughts on air shocks?
Why not just use test loads to find the weight limits for those parabolics prior to building out the truck rather than asking the hordes on Utubez?
I know the weight limits of the springs. On paper they should be too light to carry the load that I've already fitted. But in reality, they are not! And this is the point of this experiment. Do it the way the stores do it and most of the time 4wds are over-sprung. Because the stores play the safety factor first, not the comfort factor. I am looking for the right balance, and working it out for myself. Many have suggested air-bags as a solution. I have rejected this idea, and this is why.
@@4xoverland you fail to mention a 3rd scenario, replacing coils and springs with air suspension entirely. I want to know how does air suspension perform on ash board roads, I know it extremely uncomfortable when you raise the height of the vehicle but I heard nothing is more comfortable than air, especially off-road.
@@4xoverland My only experience with air bags has been a positive one. At 5psi (min setting) they really don't affect the normally sublime ride of the King Shocks suspension, but when carrying an additional 30 gallons of fuel, water, etc and towing they offer perfectly customizable support on the fly. Granted this is on a RAM 2500 Power Wagon on 40" toyo M/T's, so I'm nowhere near the design limits of the carrying capacity for the frame and axles, but I've been rather impressed with the performance in every situation thus far. From highway to washboards to more technical max articulation scenarios it's been perfect. Living in SW Utah I use the truck more than most and coming from a heavily built 200 Series I can't say I'll ever miss that platform.
You have fitted light springs to the new one though, surely a helper is a best of both worlds thing? Never just airbags though.
You went on to make the argument - and remember you are "testing" induction cooking, why not test it yourself properly and tell us all :)
Risk of testing induction cooking and it goes badly wrong - cold food. Risk of testing improperly engineered suspension and it goes badly wrong- a catastrophic accident killing people.
@Jack P-J things can be done with engineering thought. You know, like cutting a roof off ..... do you have a 100% stock vehicle?
There is no doubt that bad mods and badly engineered changes can be dangerous, but things can be done properly.
@@stupidmonkeykev As a matter of fact I do, apart from some heavy duty springs made by Land Rover for the car I have, and an LPG kit. And guess what? I can take that 25yo truck everywhere that I am legally allowed to and tow anything Im legally allowed to, all whilst fully loaded, and no amount of modification will change that. The only thing I cant do is take it through really really deep water, because its a V8 not a TDI. Airbags, in this context, really are no more than extra-long progressive bumpstops, not really any good for off road or load carrying, and if they arent properly engineered thay could be extreamly dangerous. I dont see the point, If you want a stiffer spring, get a stiffer spring. If you want a nicer ride, then dont fit a stiffer spring.
@@jackp-j1041 what if you want both?
I'm not a big airbag fan boy or anything, don't have them, don't want them. Although I know a few motorhomes with them and works ok between empty and overloaded :)
@@stupidmonkeykev Ahh, on motorhomes its a different story. Firstly, I presume they are fitted by the manufacturer and hence have been tested and engineered etc, secondly you dont really need to worry about axle articulation or hitting giant bumps/ruts. If you want both? Well Im not sure about other cars, but the rear spring on old land rovers can be changed in less time than a spare tyre (if you need to inflate it with a manual pump). Ive never even seen this type of airbag, so I have no idea how easy it would be to inflate/deflate with a manual pump. If you hadnt guessed, Im from the UK, where long distance off road touring isnt possible, I dont think the longest unpaved road is even 10 miles, its certainly nothing a normal healthy person couldnt walk in a day, so if the 4x4 isnt the daily, people tend to do giant lifts with giant MT tyres, and cut as much weight out as possible. In my case, my discovery is my daily, so its unmodified, because it spends 90% of the time on the road. 90% of the distance on unpaved tracks in the UK could be done in a toyota RAV4/ honda CRV etc, only needing land rovers/jeeps/jimnys/pick ups for the other 10%, and then theres a really really tiny distance, probably less than a mile in the entire country, that needs a big lift big tyre bobtailed monster truck, but honestly, you could probably take a lightly modified nissan micra with a winch to all these places if you tried hard enough. (Im only talking about public byways/greenlanes, not pay'n'play days etc)
i could hear the aftermarket part fitting industry thinking "be quiet Andrew".........where we are most airbags are fitted to vehicles that are never loaded to go bush.....its just a fad
Don’t air bag bellows sit against the chassis in place of the rubber buffers? Therefore the chassis is designed to take some load at this location.
I think air bags do have their place. When you have hugely varying loads in the rear they do help.
Towing a caravan vs daily driving is a completey different load and you cant have one spring that does the job for both conditions
In aspws scenario, his cars weight.chsnges by 1-200kg over the course of an entire trip (as the tanks empty and the food is consumed) so airbags make no sense.
I’ve been considering the airbag option for my wrangler because I’m towing an overland trailer and was just this week doing my homework. Shocking coincidence that you posted this video with such perfect timing. I have a towing problem and pretty certain now airbags are the answer.
From my understanding of shocks / springs, you should NOT be relying very much at all on a shock absorber to slow down compression. Won’t last long at all.
Springs are to carry the load and absorb impacts, shocks are to slow the rebound and stop the pogo effect.
The simply basics, keep it simple as its best. 100% agree with him.
This Chanel is not about keeping it simple. It's about carrying as much stuff as u want and then mitigate for it.
Yes.. its just the look.. :). All vehicles look better dead equal or a little higher at the back. I wouldnt, not have air bags on a coil spring back end. They are brilliant..
Leafs are a bit different, the chassis isnt really made for the forces at the point they are fitted, unless reinforced.
I vehemently disagree with your conclusion. The right air bags are a proper helper system, spreading the load on leaf sprung trucks especially. Personally I use a Air Lift 2000 system aired to 70% when loaded, and 10% when empty. I can also use them to help level at camp.
Most people over size their air springs and ruin the travel on their trucks, then swear off air forever.
The key for me is they can reduce some of the stress on the leaf pack, helping the leafs last longer. Also by maintaining ride height it helps allow the shock to use its full travel before bottoming, and bottoming causing shock loading the frame under weight is where things will get bent.
Which truck do you own though? Australia doesn't really have a large market for full sized trucks/pickups.
@@HardstylePete I have a short wheel base, single cab F-150 which is not available in Australia. It has a dry weight of 4550 lbs (2068 kg) and a Gross Combined Axle Rating (what you may call GVM) of 9100 lbs (4136 kg). You can't get a spring suspension that covers all those possibilities. Currently the truck fully loaded in Expedition weight is around 6250 lbs (2841 kg) with me in the truck.
Check out my UA-cam channel.
I'm sorry Andrew, but the airbag in the picture where you are showing "that part of the chassis is not designed for a load", is replacing the factory bump stop.
It is in fact designed to take the full weight of that corner when the axle hits the bump stop.
By putting in airbags, you are effectively cushioning the impact.
Totally agree on the coil sprung vehicles, the ride is atrocious with airbags inside of the coils.
Some one should mention this to Jmcax , he’s has over 500 conversion being used with this airbag set up.
@@TP-mi7st Who's Jmcax?
If you run something like a long range tank that can add a variable load of 200+kg in the worst spot, behind the rear axle, airbags (within coils) are great, here's why.
An air bag will effectively increase the spring rate, not only that, because of Boyle's law, it'll do it at a non linear rate.
That is, it'll take a linear rate spring and have the ability to use it as a adjustable progressive rate spring, exactly what you want with a varying load, and progressive rate, just like leaf springs.
I think the large generalisations at the start of this vid are a little misleading... like you say towards the end the air helpers are for when you have a large difference between your unladen and laden weights. For your usage I cant see the load changing more than 100-200kg which is why you wont see any benefit IMHO however for a family car being kitted out for a weekend away its a huge weight difference from the daily commute.
My personal experience is with my friends Land Rover 90 station wagon here in the UK. It goes from being just an empty station wagon to being loaded with a roof tent, a couple of adults, the dog, the fridge, all the beer and then it has a trailer with a heavy vintage tractor put on the back so going from 2psi to 40psi with the in coil air helpers maintains the same ride quality and ride height as standard and also can be used to level the roof tent to some degree in camp.
My friend uses the arch gap from the top of the tyre to judge the pressures required to suit the load and the only time it has ever had anything but a comfortable ride was when he left the full pressure in the bags after removing the trailer and the the rear was visibly 3" higher than it should be and not how you would travel with it any more than a mile or so.
My opinion is I suspect with going the heavier (terrain tamer) parabolic leaf pack than the lighter set you have now - is you won’t suffer the same ride penalty (unladen) as you would if you were having the same conversation with conventional multi leaf springs. I think you’ll experience a very small and acceptable ride penalty for better heavy laden performance. The benefit of the parabolic design. Look forward with interest to how this pans out for you.
I believe in-spring airbags (for coils) have their application and in my experience work well if used correctly. All too often they are installed to “Band-Aid” inherent issues with the current suspension set up which often is already compromised, as you explained very well.
I only had to use mine on a previous patrol wagon I owned when towing fully laden and the ride quality was great. But I had very good coil and shock combo to start with to deal with the weight range in every other scenario.
Great insights, thanks for sharing!
Airbags used as helper springs are perfectly fine. From an engineering standpoint what you said is incorrect and if you think about it, it will sound insane. Your axle is engineered with tolerances for the thickness and type of steel to carry a load of amount. As for span and angle stresses, the closer you are to the wheel the more stress it can take. As for connection points on the frame they are usually placed in factory holes on the frame so you aren't taking away anything from structure on integrity that was intended by the engineers. Then where the airbag brackets are beefy metal they are nowhere on the same level of strength as your frame. This means if there is a point of failure it will either be the bag or the bracket but it will not be your vehicle.
For completely custom engineered applications, the bracket tree that is welded in place actually makes the frame stronger at that point, specifically to carry that loadb and those stresses.
I don't recommend the bag in spring but there are also airbags that go on to the top of struts that act completely as spirings, depending on your application.
It might be newish to you and your lifetime but airbags have been used on trucks since the 1930's. This is not new technology.
The photo of the full-length in-coil airbag that's fully inflated makes me shudder. However, like you said, they can be useful when towing. I have in-coil airbags that only occupy half the space of the rear coils and keep them inflated at 10psi (manufacturer recommends 5psi min) when driving normally. When I tow, I inflate them until the rear end is level--about 18-20psi (manufacturer states 25psi max). I feel that installing smaller in-coil airbags and running them near minimum pressures preserves most of the ride and still allows for decent articulation for the purposes of overlanding.
I'm not a expert but looking at some people's feedback, airbags are a good way to temporarily balance a load, provide better handling and reduce sway when towing. If you are almost always laden with weight, heavy duty suspension is preferable and smoother. There's no wrong decision, and airbags are generally a cheaper option then new suspension.
What I think we can all agree on is if you plan on towing 3t with a Prado with the family regularly, the safest option is to consider heavy duty suspension or airbags. You will have a much more enjoyable holiday with something to balance the load.
Airbags probably encourage overloading. It seems the airbag equipped mid size twin cabs (Triton, Navara, Ranger etc) are more prone to snapping behind the cab ... like the 2018 Triton at Well 41 on the Canning Stock Route that broke in July 2019.
There's likely some confirmation bias, I can totally see someone using cheap airbags to level out the ride then load up their dual cab with well over 1t of gear. It seems like it would be fine as the car is level yet if they had upgraded to heavy duty springs, when overloaded the ride would be terrible and focus the owner to reduce the load.
Ive been fitting Terrain Tamer springs to 4 or 5 of my customers vehicles lately. Found their Leaves very comfortable and capable of much greater loads. Even when unloaded. Not used parabolic's.
A good well reasoned video.
But what is the actual weight change between, fully loaded, including a second person and say a half load, part way through a trip.
My 130 HD has twin coils, one fitted inside the other, rides well empty or fully laden and towing my three ton digger, but my normal payload of tools is 410kg so that's taking the edge off being truly empty.
How often are we truly fully laden? Totally agree with your arguments Andrew.👍
Airbags inside the coils are kak, and a very cheap attempt to fix a serious problem
I highly disagree with you regarding shock absorbers being able to control the weight of the vehicle and keep it from bottoming out. The shockers are strictly there to control spring oscillations....be it a coil, leaf or torsion bars creating that form of energy. Even Baja trophy trucks don't use the shocks as bump stops or to limit bottoming out. Shocks are to keep the tires connected to the ground and prevent them from bouncing like a ball. In case you are under sprung and start bottoming out, there are other options such as hydraulic bump stops, poly spring bump stops, etc. Regarding your rear spring issue, I would go with a heavier spring for when "loaded up" and just reduce 5 to 10 psi off the rear tires when lightly loaded to soften the highway ride and limit the slapping sensation when going over expansion joints and such at speed. Tire pressure will have more effect on ride comfort than the spring rate differences you're dealing with. Cheers.
👍your's,trip to AFRICA 🌍, historical, places ,history, culture, environmental around in AFRICA 🌍, 👉👍CHABWINO, TWHALUMBE, ZIKHOMO 👉🇿🇲
I'll be back in Africa next year.
Are you looking for a free set from an airbag company? Go buy some your self and test them out.
I use airbags when towing a Caravan, 20 psi does the trick.👍 They do work well in coils as long as you dont put too much air in them. With 20 psi, the coils still compress and extend no problem at all.
Airbags are great for varying loads as you said. I have Terrain Tamer 0-300kg progressive springs in my Patrol which ride great when empty or partially loaded. However as soon as it’s full with the trailer, they’re too soft. I previously had heavier springs which were great when loaded but were too harsh when empty. The way I travel, it needs to drive well either way. I haven’t found a noticeable difference having them in the coils. Drives normal when empty (deflated to 0.5 bar) and normal when loaded (2.5 bar). Had just the Terrain Tamer coils for a few trips before installing the airbags.
So interesting you say this. I tried airbags inside the coils on a Prado to help with heavy loads on a trip. My experience was exactly as you describe. The ride was terrible even with 0 - 5 psi in the bags. They lost all suppleness. Yet before I put them in it was impossible to find anyone who explained this. So I totally agree and I hope others watch this before paying for airbags thinking they can have their light load road and load carrying with airbags only to end up going with stronger rear springs afterwards anyway.
It must really vary vehicle to vehicle. I use them on my Frontier/D40, and on top of leaf springs for my purposes they work great. They are sized so that they aren’t being used unless I am heavily laden or towing, and add just a touch of support and stability only as needed. Very much one of the best additions to my suspension, for me at least.
@@jimyeats I think Andrew is spot on about the impact on the ride having the airbag contained inside the coil spring which gives the bag very little room to expand as the spring compresses.
@@peterj5751 That very well could be. I am not familiar with that type of air bag setup personally. I think the airbag on top of the leaf spring, or better yet, the air bag on top of the leaf spring that simply contacts a cradle and is not permanently affixed, has less impact on how your suspension feels, and your ride quality.
Many mechanics and vehicle fitters don't understand how poisons ratio impacts the behaviour of "constrained" normally compliant materials - rubber or air.
I could not agree more. Here in the states the best performing rigs do so on their regular spring configuration (leveraging the vast amount of engineering of the Manufacturer). We are lucky to have spring shops that have years of experience making replacements and upgrades for the way the truck is used. I have used their expertice in vocational trucks for decades with great satisfaction.
"Isn't designed for it". Wrong, I regret to say. The longitudinal chassis members are beams which are designed to resist bending moments anywhere along their length, not just at one point. If you put an air bag above the axle in a vehicle with leaf springs the local bending moment diagram will change a bit but the maximum BM won't be altered much. If there's a chassis failure on a vehicle with air helper springs this will be because it's overloaded in the first place.
air bags tend to either replace bump stops or go inside the coil so they are working in the designed loading area anyway IMHO though I agree with you.
@@nrs91 We are on the same wavelength.
If one adds yet more to go wrong on a vehicle it will go wrong (in my experience). Never mind the risk of ripping an airbag on trail. Yes arguably not easy to do but 50% of all my bush repairs have been performed on items that are not considered easy to damage.
Good call keeping them off the build.
I think airbags are a great idea especially if you don't have a dedicated overlander. Why would you install springs for full GVM load when you have full GVM load only a dozen or so times a year. If you have a dedicated overlander then definitely get your spring rates dialled in, but otherwise airbags are awesome
Exactly. His perspective on reality is not that of the rest of the world Who doesn’t have an over laden vehicle every day 365 days a year
I only use the airbags when towing…
I would have thought what you are describing is for the weekender drive around midweek empty and load up on weekends. Whereas you predominantly drive your vehicle on expeditions so spring it for loads and suffer the rougher ride on the few times you drive it empty
Totally agree. I investigated air bags for a Triton I had back in 2010. My research found several instances of bent chassis where airbags had been fitted. All because the chassis was not engineered to have the stresses in the places affected. That scared me off air bags for life. EDIT: my research was specifically for towing a big off-road trailer and the instances of bent chassis I found were all where people were towing a heavy trailer. Apologies for not stating this in my original comment.
I imagine that could very well happen Doug, but I would say chassis damage was caused by over loading not by the air bags. With leaf sprung vehicle, fitting an air bag, you are putting pressure on the chassis where it was never designed to go - so that could be a contributing factor, but with coils, that point of contact is where loads are designed to go. I don't know that loading the chassis with an air bag or a stiffer spring will make any different to bending or breaking of the chassis, but I do know that over loading will do this.
That's not an airbag issue your data search was too narrow. You will find that there's likely 90% of chassis failures that do not have airbags.
@@jarlnieminen4307 Agree, but beware of statistics. e.g. It could be that 90% of Tritons have coils and so such a statement is meaningless. Statistics - a fickle mistress.
I don't know the full set of numbers so I can't say one way or other from this statistic proves coils or air bags contributed to chassis failure.
My guess is, since to hold the same weight you need the same force from the spring or air bag so a coil or an airbag plays little or no role in chassis failure.
However when the spring or airbag bottoms out - usually caused by overloading and or too harsh a treatment causing bottoming out, then that is when damage to the chassis will occur and neither the spring or the airbag has anything to do with the forces acting on the chassis since the force either can exert is expended - its bottomed out. The other cause, again independent of type of suspension is the loads imparted by weight hanging a long way behind the axle - either a trailer or badly distributed load in the tub. I'm sure you can find a video on this - John Cadogan or Robert Peper.
@@MiniLuv-1984 nah even if the spring can't carry the weight you will be on the bump stops and the chassis will break there's no magic situation where the type of springs saves the chassis.
@@jarlnieminen4307 You put it so succinctly Jarl - that was the point I tried to make.
Hi Andrew, why not air only? Light and simple to replace so carrying spares is not a problem and if maintained very reliable. I have driven Range Rovers for over 30 years including a one year 24000 mile trip around Australia so very familiar with the vehicles. My current daily driver is an all original P38 with over 330000 kilometers on the clock and the suspension has been totally reliable. I would not hesitate to take this truck anywhere. Shurely air has to be the way for variable load situations as can be seen on numerous trucks.
Generally, air suspensions have very limited travel. One of the benefits of the LC is it’s articulation to maintain mechanical traction. Swapping to air only will severely reduce its capability. The ride will be beautiful tho!
Hi, I certainly wouldn't say that articulation is compromised on my P38 which also has solid axles. Air suspension also gives you the ability to raise and lower the vehicle as required and self levels. Well maintained they are not at all problematic so I would say perfect for an overlander. Yes, they are of course more complex than four solid springs but ECU's and fuel injection are more complex than points and carburetors etc etc. I would be interested to hear why Andrew would not consider an air only system.
That is certainly a popular view by many, and I was adverse to fitting airbags for many years, however don't you think that the manufacturer designed the bump stops to handle some fairly severe loads? This is the mounting point for airbags on a 70, which if used CORRECTLY.... and I believe this is the key here, will lessen the forces applied here by providing a progressive load as opposed to a shock load. The springs should still support the majority of the load. I own a 79 series, and although it was riding fine when not towing, the airbags have definitely improved things.
A friend of mine gave his 110 a 3" lift and I asked why he bothered since that's all he'd done and he said it was to give him much better handling off and on road! I reminded him that LR Engineers had spend years and 000's of £ to make the vehicle drive as well as it could under all circumstances.
He thought adding a few more pounds was going to be much better so off he went on Green-lane. After getting stuck and breaking a spring he reverted back to standard.
My point is that I have found that generally the 4x4's Engineers are pretty good getting things right for us must if the time and helper springs and other bodges can make things really bad quickly.
Absolutely incorrect. Stock vehicles are engineered as a compromise. On road performance is directly against off road performance. LR has to make sure the vehicle is safe and meets government standards. Raising the vehicle provides more clearance but also makes it more susceptible to rollover.
.
Your friend broke a spring it’s either it was installed incorrectly or he bought something real cheap.
From one "stuffoholic" to another :)
I bought a Prado with airbags and nothing but problems with holes from sticks, removed them to replaced with springs and new shocks. If not towing air bags are no point.
Well articulated. It always alarms me when peeps start with the premise that Toyota engineers have NFI about what they’re doing.
Im currently running the 500-700kg Parabolics; my vehcile is pretty heavy as a daily; and very heavy when touring. But they handle so nicely in both cases. I just find the HD shocks from TT need to be beefed up to handing the parabolics at a full load; so probably looking at going to the pro shocks in the rear.
Do yourself a favour and get the 4 leaf TT parabolics.
Once you tune the rebound on your shocks you'll find the unladen ride spot on.
I've got mine spot on now in my 76 series which IMO is almost the same to the troopy.
Remember you can always remove a leaf if you want to, but considering your troopy will be carrying a reasonable weight when touring, the 4 leaf TT will be perfect.
Oh and you can add another leaf if you want to to your current set-up.
Thanks for sharing
Watch his last video on the build. He has the parabolics
He has the 3 leaf, I agree he will need the 4 leaf unless he really loves the Carolina squat look.
I'm running 4 leaf and air bags in my troopy.. granted I'm likely heavier than he plans to be. I just don't think the 3 leaf will be enough, particularly with no air bags. The great think about parabolics is their ability to ride well unladen, so why not go the 4 leaf
@@danielhayes1000 I guess Andrew can take a gamble as most things on his truck are freebies. We need to get it right or it's hard earned wasted.
I have to agree that the 4 leaf Parabolics are really very good unloaded. I really believe adjustable shocks with rebound adjustment is crucial to controlling the kinetic energy of the parabolics.
What shocks are you running?
@@danielhayes1000 ok yeah sorry you’re onto it!
I’ve got the 700kg ome leafs and kinda wish I went the parabolics, don’t quiet need airbags yet but maybe in the future.
@@michaelnugara1 I'm running terrain tamer shocks aswell. The ride is good. The airbags were simply to even out ride height from front to back for asthetic reasons, which btw I also don't have a problem with.
I've been running them on an 80 series for years. I constantly change from near empty to a decent load. The truck rides beautifully when empty but sags a little when full. The airbags level it out and make it more stable when loaded.
It's basic physics. Add load and your springs will compress and can't work the same due to reduced travel. The spring rate is also harsher when compressed.
Except airbags don't compress. They just stop the spring doing anything at a certain point. And then break your spring mount points. As stated. They are dumb for offroad load carrying. Perfect and designed for bitumen towing on daily city 4x4's.
@@Snook_ of course they compress.. they're made of rubber! Get the right pressure in them and they'll compress just like a football bladder. The key is to have the right pressure which usually means not too much. I think they're most useful if your load changes a lot but I agree that for serious off-road with a fairly constant load you should have the right spring set-up.
@@LongStraightLines they don’t truly compress tho. Air has a limit where it just stops/bottoms out completely so it’s kinda shit and bad for your car to hit that limit and put all the load on a tiny point of the chassy. That was my main point
@@Snook_ Its all about balance and knowing your vehicle , if when loaded you make the air bags and suspension work in unison you can run your vehicle on zero load ,and then when loaded equalise the weight with the air bags. obviously the bags compress , as the air presses the bags out horizontal on load ,thus giving you movement in a controlled way.As we all know all Toyota's chassis are massively over engineered , thats why we are all lucky in Australia to drive them. They also help with breaking under load. as they stop pitch and roll.
Also, unless you have progressive springs, compression doesn’t change the spring rate, so it is not harsher because it’s compressed. But because it has less travel for the shock absorber to do it’s thing.
In my experience, if your front high the headlights look like high beam to oncoming traffic and could create a less than desirable situation. Either in the highbeam response from the oncoming traffic or an accident caused by your inability to dip your headlights.
20 years of off road travel and the best solution (Discovery TD5) is the factory air suspension
Air helpers are the only answer for a vehicle that is 90% of its life running empty and correctly sprung for the lower weight but is loaded up to GVM on trips away. They make the vehicle ride correctly and you can keep the headlights pointing in the correct direction rather than skywards. Just don't overload your vehicle and everything will be fine.
Yes and no
Air bags with in cab control is perfect.
I am different in that I tow. But the best GVM kit available still sags and compromises steering when towing. Add air bags it’s better. Plus can drop the air with no load.
Agree chasi is not designed for it but I’ll take that risk if I can now steer and keep my family safe.
We all do it differently.
Hi Andrew,
At 8:04 you ask a question: at roughly laden weight, should you rather have (had) air-springs fitted to deal with this, or have a slightly heavier-rated spring. I would venture to say one needs to, like with almost everything, match your kit with your intentions (broadly speaking). If one wants / needs proper axle-articulation (wheel travel) for your vehicle (matched to the Q: what am I going to be doing with this car, mainly?) then I would say the answer is simple: stay with springs only. Basically because you will never get the same, or even near to, decent wheel travel / axle-articulation over rough terrain with air-helpers fitted.
I have air helpers fitted to my 105 (i purchased it with them fitted) and I will be removing them, for many of the reasons you've mentioned, and for the reason I mention above.
They have their place, and I would agree: mainly for towing or very heavy loads, on occasion, on smooth roads where serious axle articulation is not required.
Thanks for the content, have fun with the Rangie...
This help me decide, I towed 2X a year with my Lexus gx 460(Prado). Towed 2700lbs Rv trailer(caravan), installed timbren bump stop instead.
If keeping within the cars GVM towing doesn't add weight to the towing vehicle, so I don't see a need for airbags even then. Andrew is right just get your springs and shocks right :)
Well yes and no. You are correct in 99% of situations, but say for example you had a single axle trailer of max towing weight (probably 3500kg?), you would then have an enourmous towball download weight, miles over the rear axle, really compressing the springs. (not sure if theres a limit for towball downoad, or if it just has to be incorperated into axle limits/payload). But again, you are correct 99% of the time
The ball weight from the trailer does add that force to the tow vehicle and must be included as part of the GVM calculation for that vehicle.
@@HardstylePete Yes, I was assuming he knew that already
@@HardstylePete Yes a trailer puts a load to the tow vehicle but if you stay within the vehicles GVM your not adding any additional load over the GVM
I had inside coil airbags over 15 years on a 2000 honda odyssey, which have relatively soft spring and when it's loaded to max sags low and wallows in corners. Pressuring up my air bags levelled the car and the handling improved greatly. I reduced pressure when not loaded and felt no negative impact handling wise. Odyssey is much different than my current 4runner and I'm not sure if they would diminish offroading capabillity.
If you can get the ride perfect as a daily with good suspension, then 100% nothing wrong with airbags when towing. I run them on my Defender 110 and tows so nice with airbags inside coils at 25PSI. Like suspension, must go quality airbags or then the dramas start.
?????? Good day, We have a 3500 2016 Ram Dually 20,000 miles on the truck …..We tow a 19,000 rv 5th wheel….. we are having ware on our brand new front tires ……. We have had the truck front end ailment done and checked for any mechanical issues…..Do we need air bags or something else ???????
Andrew you stated it correctly from the start. You are either under sprung or under shocked. If you have to add an airbag to any suspension system then you are outside of its parameters, time to reevaluate the vehicle or your needs. Thank you for sharing thiss much overlooked topic.
@Bismarckmark No, you dont understand how parabolics or variable rate coils work!
I have turned my 2019 Fortuner into an overlander. Fitted a second fuel tank which sits above the spare wheel. The spare wheel now sits 50mm lower, and that is my problem. When the vehicle is fully loaded, it sits pretty level, I just needed to add the 50mm I lost with the 2nd fuel tank. Fitted air suspension fitted on the axle not inside the spring, I must say I am very happy, the vehicle handles well. I am only using 20% of the air suspension's capacity
I put air bags on my 13 JKUR as i had put a motorcycle carrying hitch on it, and with that extra 500+ pounds ish on the hitch, yea, the stern sagged. After that, I now actively tow an RPOD travel trailer which is , ah, shall we say at the GVW rating, and even without the equalizer hitch, the bags keep the unit well balanced overall. Funny thing - it wasnt the rear diff that ive broken, it was rather the front diff that broke in half. The fault still lie behind the steering wheel, of course.
You nail it well on the head -- what is the vehicle going to be doing? If it spends most of its life empty and only rarely sees full load, air bags make sense. If it spends most of its life loaded, upping the spring rate makes much more sense. With my ride, it always has a loaded 'coffin size' tool box on the roof rack, steel winch bumper and winch up front, and sees frequent towing - so, when i upgraded the front diff, so too did the shocks all round (they were done anyway) and upgraded springs up front and airbags that i already had astern.
One other thing I might point out - in a solid frame vehicle, the frame is designed to take the load of the vehicle across its entire structure. Im sure therell be exceptions to that, but in general, well, we use the frame to lift a vehicle clean off the ground regardless of its load at any mechanical shop. Generally, any two post hoist with its four arms is going to want to make contact to the frame for a solid lift. Is an air bag going to break a true frame? Id love to see pictures of that, and if there were any, ah, comorbidities to the fault (rust, collision, etc), cause im really skeptical on that.
Now, UNIBODY vehicles, aahhh, that is its own ball of wax, and , in my personal opinionated opine, unibodies arent particularly grand off road vehicles when compared straight across to a frame unit.
Great UA-cam channel with great informative content.But you need to take some good advise.Stop the fizzy drinks,Stop the bad carbohydrates & Stop the sugars.Coz you're starting to look like you're at deaths door😯
There is a problem with my dream car that I put my heart to afford.. its ford ranger raptor.. i love it capabilities offroad and on road... but I occasionally need to load my pickup fully and here I see a problem with ford suspension.. its not designed for heavy cargo... is there an easy solution to fix this without ruining the fun offroad without the heavyload ?
I was thinking that installing airbags would allow me to fix rear drop, and bad handling due to heavy cargo.. unfortunatly I thought there would be many aftermarket designs dedicated to my dream pickup and I couldnt find anyone fixing that problem...
What would be the best sollusion to raise cargo max weight ocasionally without swapping all suspension and ruining fun when almost empty...??
Been a user of inspring airbags for well over 20 years now. Very reliable, very adjustable, and suitable for many applications. This so called expert is just full of it. And full of himself. What a clown. Just an opinionated hot air bag himself.
fine if the car is like a troop carrier but when u have a ute with a removable canopy they work perfectly so your not stuck with 400 or 500kg springs on an empty ute ,situational id say