Some Dogs Should NEVER do Protection Work!!!
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
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As a decoy with more than 30 years experience , I more than agree with a standpoint in this video.
Yes, we tried everything. On a show dogs, sometimes, with weak, sometimes hard to see behavior traits, until we knew better.We learned. And got bitten, sometimes hard.
I'm just very glad, that the dogs, that I trained with them never bit an innocent person or a child. Not because we trained bitework with them, at least, some were a liability and nervous or dominant aggressive towards owners before they came to me; that's another reason I always pulled the brake- if you can not control your dog to the point, that it's dangerous for you, and your relationship is so bad, than I will not train him in biting just because you think, that it needs a Schutzhund exam and his breeding test. I offered a behaviour therapy and good basic obedience instead.
The greatest poor souls in this industry are dogs from working breeds, but of show lines.
It happens all the time, there comes the most "beautiful" gsd or dobermann.... with a pedigree composed of world, international, European champions, and now he desperately needs a training for his ZTP (german breeding test) or körung and Schutzhund or IPO test. Because he is already youth champion here and there on various international shows.
But his character is fearful at best, or fearful aggressive at worst, with very weak prey drive, or no prey drive at all.
Such dogs are pushed through the needle's eye through this tests with a levels of negative stress that should be forbidden very soon.
This could be achieved through obligatory puppy testing at various age before serious training.
Breeding test at 15 months is just too uncertain test of genetic aptitudes (too much socialization and training beforehand is involved), and is then also evaluated with very "diluted" and toned down criteria from subjective judges who are not interested in work and want to push the dubious dogs forward because of their exterior standard beauty only.
I'm certain that IPO or Schutzhund sport will thrive and develop further if this basic predisposition is explained: good dogs need such training, they enjoy it.
But for a weak dog it's a pure torture, even now when techniques of dog learning and training evolved towards positive methods.
Choosing the right dog for it, from puppy age onwards is simply our ethical duty.
7 months and only one upvote? Wish I had more than one to give you making it only two.
This x1000. "What breed for protection, rottweiler or gsd?" Then they end up with some crap passive frog legged dog that blows off at new stimulus and they say "look how strong he is, hes protection dog" when in reality it scared to death loool. Thesedays i want the most confident self righteous outgoing dog in the litter and nothing less. If a dog comes in and it isnt showing confidence in its body language from the second it steps into my foreign environment im not working with it
My German Shepard was a behavioral NIGHTMARE. She wouldn't even SIT!!! Your articles and videos....in 5 weeks it has changed EVERYTHING. We have a great bond and she has manners. I'm just telling you this because I have a friend in her now. Thank you.
Could you elaborate, on how you achieved results so fast?
I like his attitude and calm approach. He also has a great understanding of dog behavior and is therefore an excellent trainer.
I love that you see where a dog is not a good fit and don't work him in protection sport. We do the same thing for Service Dogs, if they are fearful, being a SD is not the job for them.
I do not train my dog for protection or bite work nor do I intend to, but this video is very educational for every owner of a more "intense" dog in my opinion anyway!
if the dogs backing down , dont work it at all !! best part of the video i agree 110% !
My dog was born to do bite work.. I could tell she was the one out of a whole litter of 8. She was a very confident she is so awesome
Finally someone knows what the hell they are doing. A sensitive, observant guy
So 👍! I have opposite problem with people wanting and buying working dogs (esp huskies and any dogs in the movies!) and wondering why they aren't like the laid back labrador next door (the family pet they should have bought).
These guys are the best, the leading authority in dogs and dog training.
Great philosophy and absolute truth. Applies to all dogs, all breeds. There's much more to the psychology of protection training regardless of intent - personal protection, law enforcement, military - than most backyard trainers will ever know. Michael has the self confidence to acknowledge that he did things while "learning the trade" that he wouldn't do today. I had that discussion with a breeder I worked with for years - 3 GSD's from her - we were talking about the games we played with our dogs when first getting dogs that could be aggressive. No more games, I treat my dogs with respect, like a loaded gun - no games with friends, strangers, etc. When it's "on" it's "on", I don't play with my guns, and I don't play with my dogs aggression capabilities. In the end, it's 98% genetics and 2% training.
Great advice makes sense
Sounds very Wise.
Respect you for the fact u r true to sharing your life lessons
Old school awesomeness 👍👍
Just a question - what about for the dogs, thinking outside the typical, more w/ mastiff blood that are low or no prey drive, that work out of defense. I get that you can sometimes awaken a prey response through 1st channeling what the dog offers - defense.
I guess as I learn my point is - what if you prefer that the bitework is rewarded and you make it positive but your ok w/ it now being a game.
I have two bulldogs - one is high prey drive and a super duper drivey girl. Bit through to competition sleeve her first time ever doing it - ever. It was awesome. Now she’s also super friendly girl.
My big boy, he’s super social I raised him as such knowing he was genetically bred as a more protective dog. He’s an old school alapaha bulldog who is naturally hot w/ anything foreign in his domain.
Anyways - he is never gonna be running blinds, but watching him work, stakes are higher...he’s thinking. He’s focused of threat not sleeve and will likely bite whatever human part is closest.
Enjoy watching both. The key point is I see my boy opening up more - looks like if not more fun per se, his confidence growing.
And notable - after or before working he’s very able to be kind and friendly on my word. He is sweet natured when cued and encouraged to “say hi” to new people.
Rambling - I just wonder why folks focus on sport and games - I guess I’m a strange man that I like seeing my dog actually protect and handle a perceived real threat vs playing bite patty cakes.
I think top dogs that work w/ both drives are great but I see too many Pavlovian pillow biters.
I’m still learning even after working a shepherd in my 20s and now working w/ bulldogs in my 40s. Just food for thought.
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Under "Reason for Contact" select "Ask Cindy a Training Question
This is an amazing comment. It’s just more confirmation to the deductions I’ve been making recently. Im on the path of learning what a true personal protection dog is and your boy sounds like the better candidate in my opinion.
That all makes perfect sense to me.
Very well said Michael.
What about use bite work tools, to a level of building confidence in the dog, but not necessarily is said dog being taught to be a "protection" aggressive dog? Just a basic confident dog, in the event that some scenerio happens that the dog needs to show courage, or a bluff/ show of force. Thoughts?
If you want your dog to do its job then you need a genetically confident and pushy dog. If the dogs genetics are only half there maybe the dog likes a bite but lacks confidence theres no harm in doing bitework where the dogs comfortable but if you actually wanted to work that dog to a serious level then its a waste of time. Most dogs will naturally bluff, thats fight or flight, theyll bluff, then if it comes down to it it will either run or bite. If the dogs scared and cant run itll just fearbite and flinch which is useless, a dog that naturally runs away will never be trained to reliably handle the pressure of fighting. Clear and consistent marker and reward foundations will do far more for confidence than just "bitework" unless you know what youre doing and can read the dog as to know when to back off and give bites at the right times
absolutly agree!
Where’d you get that version of the song “Goodbye Mick and goodbye Pat”??
I have such a weak dog. I still do protection work with her because it helps her a lot with facing her environment in a confident way. She bites like a maniac and fights well but it's hard to motivate her. We just do puppy group training with her and that's it. I just love to see how calm and confident she comes out of the ring.
Having aggression as way to build confidence is dangerous just don't for dogs sake
I wish I had the money to send my dog to you for training... I can not seem to get threw her.... yet hav had no problems with my other dogs!
Keep your money and go to a club!
This was a phenemonal video!I wonder if hes talking about !The very first time you do bite and agitation work on your puppy!Or after a few sensations does the dog go into avoidance!
why If it does go into avoidance then you don’t train the dog in protection military police work. Because it won’t work with the dogs nature. The only way that you could make it work is by breaking the dog, and that is number one, cruel if it’s against his or her gentle nature, or number two, it endangers the now broken dog and others around him.. making him become uncontrollably unsociable and excessively aggressive, or number three, turning the now broken dog into an anxious unsociable pissy little coward for the rest of its miserable life. Some dogs were not born nor cut out for that line of work.
the title is misleading :( it reads as dogs shouldn't be trained by michael :( i have watched his vids, so wanted know to why you had a problem with him.. when in fact you don't, you have mearly titled it wrong..
it should be micheal explains why some dogs shouldn't be trained ;)
Who cares
Why should some dogs never be trained by Michael Ellis? Should I find someone else to protection train my dog?
"By" in this case means that the video is by Michael - he is explaining why some dogs should not be protection trained.
I understand. I'm just making fun of the title a little bit. The video was great!:)
@@bluefirex24 just find a different trainer. Don't give up on your dog...
So my 35 lb. border collie mix really shouldn't be trained for protection because she might get confused and bite someone who is friendly? What would be some good breeds for this, preferably small ones?
I have seen australian cattle dogs do a good job in it a belgian malinois.Those are the only 2 breeds I can think of right now.
It is irresponsible to move to more headstrong bite oriented breed if you cant teach protection games and limits to a border collie.
the dog doesn't decide whos friendly. The trainer decides the limits and response behavior. Its training, not inate cognition by the dog.
Definitively Malinois,german or dutch shepperd...
I'm training my dog to be a protection dog all by myself because I need to protect myself and my house
Thank you for posting this!!!
Preach it louder fot the people in the back ... please
Those DVD's come with subtitle?
Unfortunately they don't. This is something we have looked into as some people have requested for subtitles.
Shit this guy makes a lot of sense..
this makes sense, but it's also kinda sad... is there no way to build up a dogs confidence. I mean, with humans you would do exposure therapy where you just push them a little bit at a time so that they are uncomfortable but not afraid. Like, if someone is scared of elevator you might start with being 10 feet away from a few weeks and when they got used to it you can do 9 feet or eight feet etc. at some point you might open the doors when they are standing 3 feet away. let them push the button and get them into the elevator at some point. The point is, this doesn't make them less afraid, it make them braver, so if there is a way to do this with a dog, you should be able to get them to a poin where the are a brave and curious and you can't easily scare them. Even if they are not going to do bite work i would hope there is something you can do because they will live a happier life if they aren't so scared of everything.
Yes I agree with you dogs can be trained from being scared to being totally confident There's No Limit what you can do with a dog
In some cases you could however he is saying that he has a limit on what he believes he will train in this work. Not everyone wants to spend a lot of time on fixing a dog in those areas when they can start with a dog that is already confident in itself and has good genetic nerve.
so...all the law enforcement k9 are dogs that excel in character and biting prior to training ???
i dont think so
Im sure they do....the ones that fall through the cracks become a liability. Police dog training is quite thorough...my family got the pups from one and the pups were born confident.
The biting confidence is taught, however the drive and an inner confidence needs to already be there. They need solid nerves. My working line 8 month old GSD has very high drive and confidence. He is learning protection now from a very talented ex military K9 handler..
I agree with you, I've seen dogs go from being scared to totally confident, and drive can be cultivated too
Yeah, but that's what you want for a war dog--a specialty I don't hear talked about by all of the commercial trainers.
Do you sell trained dogs or do you only train dogs?
Neither. We produce and sell dog training videos (and have tons of free videos like this!), so you can train and build a relationship with your own dog!
Ok. Thanks for getting back to me
when you talk about the dogs that you stare and they back up and you know that that dog is not for protection work, what age are you talking about? puppies? or young adults? younger than year or older? it seemed to me you were talking about dogs older than at least 7 months, they are already done teething...
my dog had a low grip in biting how can i upgrade her bite gripping?
maybe work on her prey drive?
Either your dog is being too inhibited by it's obedience handler or its environment, or you need to work on bringing out more of the dogs natural pray drive.
Table work!! I did this with my Australian sheperd and it worked like hell
What about Rottweilers for protection training
Great dogs
Great in protection training
Bam and he drills homeless guy. Lol
I love that we can coorporate so intimately with another species and form loving bonds with them. I hate that we abuse that bond to involve them in human-on-human violence that they have no part in. Among others I'm looking at you, LEOs who bring dogs and horses to riots.
I'm training my dog to be a protection dog all by myself because I need to protect myself and my house
Are your own decoy? Good luck