"Tank is very difficult and challenging" man it's fucking MISERABLE. Tanks aren't allowed to do anything without forcing their supports to basically pocket them. Everyone else gets to run around and have impact, but tanks are forced to just stand on point and hope things happen. Even Super, one of the best tank players in the game, can use every ability including his ultimate, and actually get no value out of them and he's the one that dies. The reason there isn't a gap between average ranking vs high level tanking is because tanks are at the mercy of the other players, particularly supports. I'm one that loves the tanks in the game. They're so fun and unique, but actually playing them is an awful experience. If I want to actually have fun, I queue for dps or support. If I queue flex for my challenges, I know I'm only going to be playing tank because nobody wants to play the role.
Imma be honest I don't know how he felt that was a positive when he said it. The gap between high ranks and low ranks should be similar across all roles and he said there wasn't much of one. 🤷♂️
Also impossible to have fun on tank, if you start rolling they will 5 stack counter pick you. Like bro I just wanna play doom and not go against Orisa/Zarya paired with a sombra + mercy because I got 2 kills with a rocket punch
freedo is so rude and obnoxious as soon as someone has an different opinion he said we have memory loss rose tinted glasses and ludicrous, are you serious freedo ? We are not allowed a different opinion to you ? You really think you are going to change are opinions ?
At this point I only do my All Queue challenges and then go back to soloing in DPS or Support. I used to love being a good tank but now it is just miserable because if you don't pick the meta you just get flamed, even if you are good at playing the tank you try to pick...
I think both have their own unique pros and cons since each fundamentally change how the game is played, however I almost never queue tank anymore cause it’s straight up a miserable experience in almost every game. Something needs to change
On the rare occasion I play anything other than Total Mayhem now I only play dps. Which, I almost never played DPS in OW1 and Sombra is the only DPS character I play in OW2. Playing support makes me want to walk into traffic and playing tank is just miserable.
The worst part about OW2 is how limited your team becomes the second you tank chooses. Too often I load into Gibraltar our tank picks attack rein, and we get obliterated curb stomped because we choose a melee low ground brawl tank on a map with 2.5 points of high ground. I miss the days when your tank comp could double up on one skill set (like brawl), do a variation like double bubble, or go two different tanks like rein/dva and you could have all your bases covered for defensive terrain. Which supports can feasible contest a widow/Hanzo/soldier/echo with a healer on high ground, the answer is zero of them. It feels bad to have 1 player on your team responsible for choosing a hero that is map specific or else you lose.
A good point he didn't bring up. Maps were not made for 5v5 and we're just stuck in this weird spot of people yelling at their tank to go take care of high ground while they also have to move the cart, duel the other tank, and protect supports
@@A_Larvitar ironically enough I think the maps that would play BETTER 5v5 is 2cp. Less stall, less bunker capabilities on defense, less damage mitigation. I'm not saying it would be fixed/perfect but some of the problems were caused by 2 tanks stalling on point 2 defense
I'd argue that Ana, Illari Bap and Moira all have that potential. I've out-sniped widows numerous times as Ana, Illari is proving to be good at mid and ranged duels, a decent Moira knows how to flank, and Bap should also be strong on distance duels due to his kit, not to mention his mobility allowing him to get places faster than most of the other supports. Now, throw in the DPS getting the pocket and yes, it's more difficult, but if anyone else on the team has any sort of awareness, then it shouldn't be just one support vs in this scenario. The problem becomes the awareness rather than the comp itself.
@@C0rran05 the effort for a nap/moiria/illari to reach a snipers position to even attempt a dual will be a throw by the time you reach the snipers position in most cases. Equally in most cases (not all) to utilize mobility/utilities/healing abilities means your team is missing those benefits from you as a support. I personally understand that getting proactive as a support is sometimes the only option, but with every sniper/ranged DPS having a movement ability and a close range DPS option it just feels bad pursuing a character that can hit you for 200 damage in 1 second and costing your team a support
As someone with over 5k hours in the game, I will always say this.. bring 6v6 back for a season in arcade. See how it is. Collect the data. The players want it so give it to them.
Most comp players don't really play arcade mode. They should replace open queue with 6v6 for a season and see how it does Or just add 6v6 as a competitive mode without replacing open queue
the reason they wont do this is because they already know 6v6 is better and they will receive so much hate and people asking for 6v6 to be the main game but the only reason 5v5 was even created was to make ow2 look like a new game and not just an update... but its literally 10x worse and they would never just own up and say u know what 5v5 didnt work we are reverting it, will never happen unless by some god microsoft step in and actually fix the game
I appreciate the video but I cannot get behind the "5v5" is better for all roles. There is NO way its better for tanks. Counterpicking ruins it for me. Even if there was a bad tank synergy, I could always pick a tank to try and synergize better with my other tank. Of course, if the other tanks picked a better "synergy", then it could be tough, but I would still take that any day over the "oh hes on dva, ill go zar" gameplay. I cant even pick a hero I like playing because it immediately gets countered, especially if im playing well. So either I get punished for playing well and forced to counterpick them, or I am throwing the game. For that reason alone, I went from tank main to support main and much more dps play (which in OW1, I NEVER picked). The counterpicking is the lamest thing to come to ow2 as a former tank main.
freedo is so rude and obnoxious as soon as someone has an different opinion he said we have memory loss rose tinted glasses and ludicrous, are you serious freedo ? We are not allowed a different opinion to you ? You really think you are going to change are opinions ?
@@nufcjoker9057 yeah, freedo lost me on this one, I stopped playing the game because the tank experience is completely dogshit. I believe freedo is just catering to DPS players for content at this point
Exactly how I feel about it, I was a tank main on OW1, but nowadays it's a terrible and stressful experience. You can start rolling the enemy team and then after the first two fights they 5 stack counter you lol. I can say for certain that even playing DPS it doesn't happen as often like it does for tank.
The only problem I have with 5v5 is the Stomp or Be Stomped experience. With one less tank and counter picking, being rolled every single teamfight, sometimes for multiple games in a row, is very common. And it’s extremely frustrating and draining.
Tell me about it. It even happens in my QP games. It’s never a fun balanced game with 5v5, it’s always roll or get rolled and both of those are boring as hell.
Just like Freedo said. A lot of people don't know how to play OW2. That's why the stomp or be stomped is the problem. If my Tank is bad. I take more space on DPS by getting good damage angles to take off some pressure from my tank. Depending on what Support character I'm playing I'll do the same thing.
Tank synergies only mattered at the top? EXACTLY. That is why 6v6 was better for the majority of the playerbase. You literally just said it. Outside of the top, pretty much every tank combination could work, where your skill on the hero could make up tank-on-tank counters to a good extent. In 5v5, the single tank is the focal point. And the counterpicking is so incredibly oppressive that even a single DPS or Support hero can negate 80% of the value of some tanks simply by existing. In 5v5, the tank-on-tank counterpicking is so bad because there is only a single tank. Counterpicking is so fundamental in how the game plays that it makes the game abysmal to play for tanks AT ALL TIERS OF PLAY. Not just at the top, like in 6v6, but for EVERYONE. You went back and forth on this three times in the video. Tank synergies only matter at the top. But then 5 minutes later. You can't play the game without the right tank synergy.
Thank you! Couldn't have said it better. What made overwatch fun as opposed to other fps games was the moba aspect, the fact that you needed to use your brain and synergize was the point! Now you just can't do that at all unless you have perfect aim which is just like ever other fps and I don't just want to point and shoot all day, I want a more complex game so there are less braindead players 😅
freedo is so rude and obnoxious as soon as someone has an different opinion he said we have memory loss rose tinted glasses and ludicrous, are you serious freedo ? We are not allowed a different opinion to you ? You really think you are going to change are opinions ?
Yeah for me that comment about 6v6 being more team oriented and less deathmatchy is exactly why I never like the change to 5v5 in the first place and it only got worse over time. Very rarely do people go out of their way to actually know what’s going on with their team in order to help now. everyone just wants to jump in blind and start fighting or whatever they want without even thinking about the team or different ways of approaching a situation. *that’s not to say 6v6 didn’t have its problems and that 5v5 didn’t come with benefits, but overall to me 5v5 was a tipping point where they just wanted to attract the wider audience from competing games and no longer cared about the core of what overwatch is/was
So it seems that the general takeaway is this: "5v5 is better, because now there's more counter potential for an individual player. The tank role has been pretty much shafted entirely to get to this point, so the other 4 players can do whatever they want now. But that's fine, because tank players make up the far minority of the playerbase anyways."
I dont even understand how even dmg mains are enjoying this 1: they lost one of the most unique characters ever made in a fps, and thats Doomfist 2: hence the absence of a tank they are way more free to flank, but who are you flanking? Baptiste the immortal god? Ilari? Kiriko? Good luck with that
@@passadeliriousWE ARENT BRO idk what the hell fredo is talking about. “Atleast in 5v5 you can shoot things even if u are getting rolled” no we cant. We either literally sit there being spawn camped, or flank into 4 people all grouped up and instantly kill us cuz the rest of our team is just dead to nothing + the 100 immoral abilities in the game, then if we play with our tank we just sit at a choke forever til we lose. DPS was WAYYY better in overwatch 1 and i played the last 3 seasons before overwatch 1 turned into overwatch 2 so i have very recent memories of this. And 6v6 was SOOO much better even in the double shield and spam CC state it was in (which would be fixed right now if we stayed 6v6 btw) 2 weeks into overwatch 2 i was already saying 5v5 was horrible. If this game stays 5v5 its over. Im telling you. We all know blizzard wont rework all the heros to actually fit in 5v5 so we will always just have this shitty stomp or be stomped experience. THATS EVEN EFFECTING THE CASUALS. Thats the worse part, soon even they will quit along with the hardcore players following very soon.
Tank player POV: Ok I forced pylon Ok I forced suzu Ok I forced torb turret Ok I forced bastion form Ok I forced javelin Ok I forced fortify Now I can play the game This isn't all that better, the problems have just been shifted elsewhere.
Fredo is too high up on his soapbox notice tanks hate this mode. Every game and I mean every game has a tank leave mid game because they get diffed, inconvenienced or flamed. I feel bad for tank mains and can barely play this game when the game still struggles to find a tank to replace them. I’m getting “stop bitching tanks “ energy from him.
@@Trailmix305 If your tank is rage quitting I'm going to assume it's some dumbo who can only play things like DVa to get their socks off with a 4 kill ult or trying to play hog to 1hko people with hook (but failing).
freedo is so rude and obnoxious as soon as someone has an different opinion he said we have memory loss rose tinted glasses and ludicrous, are you serious freedo ? We are not allowed a different opinion to you ? You really think you are going to change are opinions ?
And also everyone is so toxic towards tanks. I played tank in comp a few times, but then stopped completely, because people would start insulting me and talking crap to me and I would get ALL the blame no matter how hard I was trying. If the DPS and Support did bad, it must have been because of the tank, so now i just que up for support or dps.
My biggest problem with 5v5 is that it changed the entire fundamentals of playing the game. 6v6 was structured around team play and synergy building, where now 5v5 feel more like lane dueling. The game abruptly changed from looking to break down a team together and gone to chaotic duelist battleground, so for the og player base it’s a different game in approach completely.
It definitely did change the fundamentals of the game, but team play and synergy building still very much exist in 5v5 (dive comps, rush comps, bunker, etc.) it's just that now it's more balanced between those aspects and the shooter gameplay.
The og playerbase was tiny and ever dwindling. The change to 5v5, and to be more focused on skill expression and duelling rather than who has the better team opens up overwatch to a larger playerbase.
@@kevingerstner9001 Does synergy actually matter tho in 5v5? You can just play Orisa and any teammate can just play whatever they feel like. The problem here in 5v5 is that if a tank dominates enough and not just because a character is broken but also if that tank player is skilled enough the synergy just doesn't matter at all at any tier.
@mentlegen3887 well in overwatch 1 me and my wife we be able to make all the way from bronze to high diamond just playing every night, now she only play supports when i stuck in the dps role in mid diamond, i feels is not the same fun that play the same role, i suck in supporting and she suck in dps so we are doomed haha
I feel you. My fiancée played a little bit of OW because of her friends, and really liked Zarya, but never got a chance to truly learn to play. I started tank duoing with her so she could learn in Quick Play and it was so fun to support each other. I got to play tanks like Wrecking Ball and get so many bubbles. And she got to experience melting things at max charge constantly. It was so funny.
This is, imo, the best solution. Just provide an official 6v6 mode. I really do like the 5v5, and I play a lot of tank games because I queue for all roles usually (I remember not long ago that would mean I was playing support all day, lol). I have personally felt that most games give you a fighting chance, and on tank I usually don't need to swap much. Or I refuse to swap because I like playing which ever tank I'm on, usually Dva. If you understand your tank well enough, you can play around the other team/tank pretty well most of the time, outplaying the counter play. I've forced the whole enemy team to swap to counters before, which feels good because it means they know they can't outplay you otherwise, but sucks because it can become unsustainable at times when EVERY pick is made just to take YOU out, lol. I short, its kind of a mixed bag with all sorts of pros and cons, but I agree the main set up should actually be the 5v5, but the 6v6 was rather iconic and fun in its own right, so I'd love to have the 6v6 as an option for casual play.
I would love for 6v6 to return. It doesn’t have to be 2 tanks, they could make an off tank specific type to avoid double shields. If any1 remembers early ow1, there was a section where torb, mei, hog, and i think they added sym to that slot too before dps - wrecking ball for example would make an excellent addition to the role.
Or they could ballance creativelly. Like if you have 2 shield tanks on a game their shields are nerfed by a percentage and give full shield if there is only 1. Give it a lore excuse like "oh our battery can only handle one we'll have to share lol" or some bullshit like that.
@@Yorishiriamorioh that’s an idea I had but with open queue. For example healing is reduced by 5% for each support class. The only issue with that is what happens when someone switches mid team fight. If someone dies early as rein then switch off rein does there sig get an increased barrier?
@@tyreemiller1389 all they would have to do is change tank damage values and health back to OW1 levels and keep all the reworkd we have (example: orisa javelin, rein 2x firestrike etc.)
Just let the tanks have slightly different abilities depending on presets they pick like off tank or full tank that way one tank will have the barriers and the other tank will be like the back up.
NO ONE PLAYED TANK. WHAT DO YOU MEAN TANKS ALWAYS RUINED THE GAME. DOUBLE SHIELD SUCKED DOUBLE FLANKES WERE JUST BALL SLAM PLUS WINSTON JUMP DYING IN ONE SECOND. YOU GUYS DONT EVEN REMEMBER OVERWATCH YOUR JUST BLINDED BY NEVER BEING SATISFIED WITH ANYTHING AND ALWAYS LOOKING BACK ON PAST MEMORY FONDLY AND ITS FUCKING INSANE
The key reasons given in the video for 5v5 being better are simply not true, are still problems in OW2 like they were in OW1, or could be fixed in 6v6 through hero balance/reworks and adding more Tank & Support heroes. *(Queue Times)* - The argument that going to 5v5 was needed because there wasn't enough Tank players in 6v6 is a faulty argument. The Tank role is largely seen as the least fun role BY FAR right now, because of the lack of team play + lack of interactions between Tank heroes, as well as the constant Tank counter-swapping getting on everyone's nerves. The amount of Tank players you lose going from 6v6 to 5v5 really hurts Tank queues. The Tank queues in 5v5 are instant queues like they were in 6v6, whereas DPS & Support have longer queues times, just like it was in OW1, showing that the change to 5v5 did not fix any queue time problems, especially since we are past the honeymoon phase of people trying out how the Tank role feels in OW2. A MASSIVE reason why the DPS queues were so long in 6v6 is because we have always had such a low amount of Tank & Support heroes compared to Damage heroes. At end of OW1, we had 8 Tanks, 17 Damage, & 7 Supports, so no wonder the Damage role queues were the longest. *(DPS Game Quality)* - Sure you had to get around the enemy Tanking in 6v6, but that was also the case for the enemy. Having a 2nd Tank on the team gave the DPS players more space to make plays. A major issue with 5v5 that I experience when I play the Damage role, is that instant death comes out of nowhere far more than it did in 6v6. Also, for your average player that cannot hit shots on squishies as much, having a 2nd Tank to shoot made them feel like they are having a more consistent impact in the fight. As long as overall sustain is balanced properly so fights don't come to a stale-mate, then there is no such thing as 6v6 feeling sluggish. The pace of 6v6 can be controlled through hero balance/reworks. *(Haven't Played 5v5 Long Enough)* - Well OW2 has been out for a whole year at this point, and the over-emphasis on counter-picking in 5v5 is a real problem that cannot be gotten used to. Counter-picking still existed in OW1, but it wasn't as severe or straight forward in 6v6. Having 1 Tank vs 1 Tank directly encourages counter-swapping whenever you can, and people are sick of it. Again, OW2 has been out for basically a year at this point, so people have played Tank enough in 5v5 to know they don't like playing Tank; no amount of extra time will change that. *(Tank Synergies)* - Freedo points out in the video that 90% or so of the player-base had to play Reinhardt in order to not have a hard time. Well if that was the case, then Reinhardt is still a must pick in 5v5 like he was in 6v6. If the OW2 Reinhardt changes, new Tank heroes being released, or other balance changes have changed that, then those changes could have been done in 6v6 as well to make more Tank diversity for more tiers of play. Double Barrier was very fixable while still keeping Orisa & Sigma viable when paired with other Tanks. Fortify & Kinetic Grasp needed nerfed or 1 or both abilities reworked, so that Brawl & Dive can be effective against Orisa & Sigma once they close the distance. Fortify & Kinetic Grasp being as good as they were, in the kit of Ranged Tanks, negated their weaknesses to Brawl & Dive comps. Tanks like Roadhog & Wrecking Ball should have been reworked even in 6v6, in order for them to fit better in different Tank pairs. Most Tank pairs have been severely under-rated. There are a lot more viable Tank pairs than most people realize. Also, them giving Winston a ranged fire option for OW2 is an example of something they could do in 6v6 to make more Tank pairings closer in power level to each other. Damage & Support pairings are very important too though; for example, a Rush Support paired with a Ranged Support is not synergistic. This will always be the case for every role, so no need to remove a Tank slot just because certain tanks synergize with each other more than others. *(Importance of Good Team Compositions)* - It is a MASSIVE misconception that having a good team comp in 5v5 is less important than in 6v6. In 5v5, because of having to play out in the open more than before, if you don't have the right Tank that can create enough space for your DPS & Supports to make plays, then your team can get rolled very easily. In 6v6, having a 2nd Tank on each team means that both teams have enough space to get into their effective range, and have space to make plays, regardless of what their Tank pair is. I've already stated that Tanks like Roadhog & Wrecking Ball should have been reworked even in 6v6; this would allow for Roadhog & Wrecking Ball to better create space for their team. A current example of a horrendous team comp in 5v5 that causes you to lose a lot of matches would be a Doomfist paired with hit-scan heroes who need a Tank to hold the space in-front of them and block for them in order for them to make plays, but Doomfist does not do that like other Tanks can (I'd rework Doomfist back into a Damage hero with OW1 Doomfist's abilities, but remove stun from Rocket Punch, and reduce his knock-backs - in turn, his wall impact damage would be removed).
Reworks Orisa - her shield is now retrievable like sigma and goes on a small cd but if it gets destroyed it goes on a longer cd. Winston- if his gun shoots through Shields it increases its dmg output. Dva- her missles do more shield dmg. Certain DPS due more dmg to barriers
Dps and support queue times are shorter in OW2. Just because they are still longer than tank doesn’t make them actually the same length of time as in OW1. Logically, looking for 4 other players, especially looking for 1 less tank takes a shorter amount of time.Faulty argument
@@kash_6115 I remember back in 2020 (before the devs stopped updating the game), that the Queue Times were extremely similar to how they are now in OW2 (only difference is Support is more popular than DPS now). Yes queue's were worse at the end of OW1 than they are now because the devs abandoned the game.
Bro cooked, but you forgot 1 thing about Qtimes OW2 is - F2P - Gets new content monthly - Gets fast and impactful changes that shake up the meta (They are not good changes, but they do atleast keep it from becoming stale) These 3 points MASSIVELY increase player counts. If Blizzard announced F2P + BP + Shop + New Monthly Content for Overwatch im 2019, didnt even bother to do PvE and just kept growing PvP OW It would be in a 10000x better spot right now
I think the problem with 5v5 is that it was a lazy solution to a problem they (being the devs) created. Make good tanks and give tank players more options and there would have been more tank players in que overall. 5V5 just felt like a lazy way to nerf comps that the devs couldn't fix after they created them and a lazy way to fix the que time problems.
This is a common occurrence with the overwatch balance team. They're met with balance challenges and come up with some lazy cop out to get them out of putting in work and dealing with it in a healthy way. Cop out 1 - Brig, Cop out 2 - Role lock, Cop out 3 - 5v5. I predict cop out 4 will be no hero switching in game or a cooldown on it to get around the tank problem of everyone constantly switching to counter them. Every cop out has made the game significantly worse so game will probably die after that.
I've always said 5v5 was blizzard's only solution to kill double shield meta... But then they reworked Orisa(for the better) and that fixed it by her self right there lmao
lazy solution... it was literally the same solution they came up with when 3 tanks and 3 supports were meta for 10 years and they didnt understand how to fucking balance mother fucking supports and tanks to do less damage and healing then THE ACTUAL DPS HEROES in their game
idk man, any game with roles has a tank problem. it's a role that inherently has a lot of pressure put on it and requires a lot of strategy and mind games. a lot of people just don't have the mindset needed for tanking (or they need more experience with the game to build it up) so there will always be less tank players by nature.
@@endless_del I disagree, I think if you give good incentives (Good tanks, with a wide variety of viable, but fun playstyles) to play tank, then you would inherently attract players that are new or veterans alike to the tank role. Giving tank players, specifically, more options would have helped prevent role-burnout or players avoiding the role altogether. This possibly could have led to alternative ways to move the meta along that wouldn't have fundamentally changed the way the game was played by morphing it into a counter pick game as well. I think people forget that before in OW1, in order to reach the very top levels you had to do three things really well, among others, but the main three are as follows Understand team compositions, master mechanics (we'll group aim in with mechanics), and master positioning. To me 5v5 feels like the removal, or at least the partial removal, of a fundamental aspect of the game being "Understand team compositions". Thus, making it a lazy solution to a problem the devs couldn't solve. I think the larger, overarching, issue is role-to-hero-inequality from the developers.
I do miss 6v6, the tank duo specifically, and probably only because I had a duo... I think the balance issues are making this desire to go back stronger, it's like being in a new relationship and after the first big fight you start thinking maybe the old relationship was better
I think some of the problem is that you're only looking at it from your level of play. I can attest that from an average player level, the game is no longer "balanced", it's far less enjoyable because no one looks at it as a team based game, and all the matches tend to be stomp or be stomped. I have had very few of what I would call balanced, enjoyable matches since the game went to 5v5.
i play in GM on my main account and ive played in diamond and masters on my smurf, i can assure u the game is just as miserable if not more miserable at higher levels of play i genuinely have no idea what fredo is thinking he is just plain wrong, no matter the rank ow2 is worse than ow1 in every way unless ur playing support
bro no one looked at 6v6 as a team game. it still is always dps diff or supp diff or someone calling you trash in chat. not "oh we played that bad." "we messed up our ults" the game has never been a team game in practice. I agree that the games can be stomps very often. IT WAS THE SAME IN OW1. Id argue it was worse.
I played in the first ow competitive season. and play now. we always act like people werent raging at jeff kaplan and the game devs for the first 10 seasons of the ganme. now people call it the best time of ow. people just look back on things with nostalgia. Im positive we went back to 6v6 a year later people would be saying 5v5 is better, or coping by saying the devs are terrible and 6v6 is still really good. this imagination yall have that 6v6 would make people love ow and never complain and be happy and love tank and all the problems be solved is pure naivety. ik its not a technical point. But people didnt want to play tank in ow1 it wasn't fun. AND on top of It, it wasn't fun to play into rein sigma, or dva ball, or anything like that while the other team had torb mei and I just want to play gengi or tracer. It sucked. This is better. Playing into dps doom with a winston and ball, just makes me want to uninstall hearing about it. fucking awful
@@jordanstarr2992 There were things that weren't fun about it, sure. But I will stand by my statement that with 6v6 the game felt more team based rather than deathmatch based. The things that made it not fun then (even tho I've always enjoyed playing tank and support) were much as they are today - the devs are too reactive and don't actually attempt to balance the trifecta that they've created. They just use power creep. Also, you know you can just keep typing in the full statement. These aren't text messages.
If you do that though people are gonna be dumb enough to complain the mode isn't balance when it's not the main mode at all. Also dividing the player base is a problem.
17:33 Yeah, you're right! There isn't a massive falloff between playing tank through the average ranks to the high/top level of play and, the tank role is now just miserable for everyone equally!
I knew this would happen. 5v5 is simply put fundementally broken when a single tank has to do twice the work, no matter how juiced up the tanks are in 5v5 the stress of needing to solo tank is unbearable.
@@FR_N-do4xiIt can be really bad especially since as a tank you can run into counters on every role. So the rock paper scissors for tank is like playing rock paper scissors against 5 people and you lose if they have your counter.
@@MannyMulattoPlays before paper was invented, people played Rock paper scissors with only Rock and scissors and I suppose tank is like scissors rn then?
@@FR_N-do4xi More so that tanks have more counters and are more likely to be countered. I cant tell you how man times i had 1 good starting fight as doomfist and the enemy team came back on orisa sombra ana brig. Youre not just being countered by one person its often multiple.
@@joshuacollins9316it is not a team game when you have to rely on your supports as a tank to babysit you and you can not take control of the map as a tank you are quite literally not able to play your role properly. A tank in overwatch is not supposed to be one dimensional sit in front of the team take space you are supposed to have balanced fair support cooldowns to aid you in taking space but thats not a thing anymore since they removed a tank.
I am going to disagree with you, and something that they brought up in the group up podcast, having a player throw in 5v5 is way worse, especially when its the tank. In the metal ranks Doom and Hammond are like 80% of the tank picks to which half the time they aren't even in the fight. I would much rather at least have another tank to rely on.
I mean the math makes this really clear, 1/6 of a team is a smaller percentage than 1/5, but I don't think it is at all reasonable to format the game around players who purposefully lose. Effort should instead be put toward warning and banning those players. If you're saying that a tank pick is a throw just because of the rank they're playing it at, this is simply incorrect thinking. Those players who play ball and doom in metal ranks and won't switch are almost guaranteed to be more help to your team on those heroes than playing something that you want them to because they lack the skill in the tank you want.
But in the previous game the exact same thing would happen where your tanks would pick other obsolete throw picks in the metal ranks. Its a fundamental problem of having a game where teamplay is so crucial, and 5v5 or 6v6 doesn't really affect how easy it is to throw.
Imo the only reason we are not back to 6v6 is because the devs are going to get clowned since it's really the only thing that still differentiates OW1 from OW2 aside from the battle pass nonsense
Tank was a unpopular role in overwatch 1 so their experience means less. That’s basically what the dev team said and that’s why I quit the game. My role was essentially deleted. Maybe balance your game next time. Support and dps can still have 10+ minute Queue times with 1 less tank slot to fill on each team. That should tell you how the game is doing.
Hahahaha I remember when there were no role restrictions. I would be in 6v6: A = 1 support, 2 Dps, 3 tanks Or B = 1 healer and 5 tanks Those games were fun as hell 😂😂😂😂
@@lesliejacoby9137 All tanks were superbuffed when they switched from OW1 or OW2, check the patch notes. As for whether it is the problem, no that is not the root cause. The problem is 5v5, the tanks couldn't survive alone without a partner so they had to be superbuffed. Zarya and Orisa this seasons are the exception. They are triple omega buffed and steamroll most of the meta. Still, that also has a cause, the support power creep, which is just a big of a problem as 5v5.
My issue with 5v5 isn't the 5v5 is the balance and time to kill being just very fast. It feels like many times running back is more time consuming than before. I think what really needs to happen is increase the ttk so it's a bit longer
The TTK isn't just fast, sometimes it's SLOW! In 5v5 currently you either blow up instantly or live forever. The immune and immortality effects and high healing values can make a pocketed target impossible to kill. But you step out of position while your supports are trying to get damage value, you just die.
@@avatarofdeath Yeah, it's due to the fact that people think by taking away 1 tank, the game should be less team play orientated, but less team arguably just makes the rest of the team even more important with less leeway for alternate playstyles.
@@avatarofdeaththe person got it only half right. Numbers in general are too high, damage being so high means the healing and support utility had to be broken to match up with the dmg potential. The problem is the moment that utility or player skill don’t line up people just fall over. Look at how quickly tanks get burst down in ow2, it’s no surprise supports are so strong right now. The reverse is also a problem, imagine you don’t have the dps to take on all that healing and utility? You’ll just get rolled over by the better team. Imo this is why supports currently are the strongest role that can actually carry the game. They have both the stats and utility to carry games that mean without being checked it’s futile to fight against it. Tank is absolutely being hurt by these inflated damage and healing stats. If numbers across the board (and support utility was nerfed) tank would be in a better spot.
freedo is so rude and obnoxious as soon as someone has an different opinion he said we have memory loss rose tinted glasses and ludicrous, are you serious freedo ? We are not allowed a different opinion to you ? You really think you are going to change are opinions ?
Tank diff gets magnified in a 5v5 because there is no second tank to moderate that difference. The same math also explains why after a teammate dies, 4v5 (25% difference) is more devastating than 5v6 (20% difference), allowing for more snowballing. The same math also explains why a kill feels that much more impactful in OW2 and why all the roles have more playmaking potential. Overall, 5v5 seems to allow for a more varied game play at the expense of more stomping, and more pressure on the tank players.... I'm just sad I can't play ball as an off tank like I used to >< Yes to hero ban!
you mention the complexities of tank synergy as a negative, I've always viewed it as a positive and it truly was in ow1. Tank synergies are arguably more influential/impactful for sure, but overwatch is a fundamentally synergistic shooter which is its strength. The only reason 1 tank was removed in my opinion was to draw players to a "new experience", a thinly veiled way of making a drastic change to cover up an extreme lack of content.
No amount of argument is going to erase the fact that EVERYONE was having more fun in Overwatch 1. I have not seen a single person say Overwatch 2 is way more fun. I've heard people say it's a minor upgrade, I've heard proponents of 5v5 say it's more balanced, I have not heard even ONE person say 5v5 is more FUN.
6v6 was way more fun, tank synergies was the essence of Overwatch. yes it was more chaotic but the fight isnt over if 1 player dies. I think they could have balanced it.
6v6 was awful people didnt want to play the game. especially not tank. playing into sigma rein with cheesy dps, or ball dva comps were horrible. more ults more chaos. people didnt want to play tank. you guys are just being nostalgie rose tinted glasses. gamers always do this even though they bitched about the game nonstop and always have and always will and you are being a dumb human sheep but its psychology. no ones ever said, at the very least thats never been close to the consensus. "wow overwatch is fun and balanced" and its not because the game has never been fun or decently balanced its that no one can be happy and aways has something to complain about and thats life. ofc people will infantilise and blame devs and say thats why game has never been good. so ofc in some imagined reality, the game has been good but never reality.
Everyone talks about double shield, the main reason for double shield was orisa with her shield and sigma. The only new shield is rammatra which wouldn’t be a powerful shield in the comp because it disappears after a few seconds. The main reason why tanks want a second tank is because in OW2 you’re just a target for every single ability with no body to soak up powerful cooldowns for you
The same stuff happend in 6v6, but worst because there was more cc in the game, playing rein was, cass stun, rock, discord, ball boop, brig stun, you die Peole looking at 6v6 like if didnt have a way worst cc issue that was needed to stop 2 tanks
@diegocorvalan5435 ok but the difference now is that there isn't as much cc for tanks so that problem wouldn't exist and even in ow 1 you had another tank to protect you if too much damage was coming at in this If you get cc dumped then your done unless a support saves you 6v6 just gave the tanks more freedom the only thing that would need to be changed would be the shield tanks
Most tank players will disagree here. If your team does not have a competent support lineup to defend themselves and keep the tank alive then its not going to be fair. As a tank, if you DPS don't support you then you are done, often time you also wont be getting as much healing to survive a well coordinated push from the enemy tank +dps. Plus, a tank is the first focus for the entire opposition, imagine being shot by 5 different 'e' abilities every 10s
That's true, supports make a big difference in the tea comparison, even if you as a tank are way batter than the enemy tank, sometimes even the support pick on your team can throw that game. Just yesterday I was mowing the other tank, but then they swaped to Ana while I was on Moira mercy, it was gg even tho I switched to try and adjust
If you feel like that you probably have a "My W key is stuck and I can't stop pressing it" problem. Cover exists. When I play as healer, there's nothing more annoying that those tanks that literally just stand there feeding the enemy DPS ult while I literally cannot stop healing them for a single second because they would die instantly. If you're forcing your support to spend 100% of their time healing you, you're playing tank wrong.
@@_korbo_ I'm not talking about healing numbers, it's more of a utility problem, some supports are just useless in this format of the game. This gets even worse when counterwatch is the name of the game.
Yes. I agree to this. I like to tank, but it feels exactly like I am the one being hosed by the opposition while trying to take space and not being backed up by DPS. When we lose, all I see is "tank diff", when the "diff" is DPS not DPSing (for want of a better word). So many matches could be better if the team I was on actually shot at the opposing tank like what is being done to me. It does my head it.
The biggest issue with 6v6 was double shield, with the lack of shields and changes to shields such as Ram's being a cooldown, its solves that problem already. We dont have to worry about making tanks indestructible in 6v6 because they have another tank to help support them and supplement some of that tankiness. Plus, more things to shoot= more engaging. You always feel like you have something to do in 6v6
@@nufcjoker9057and I'm pretty sure all the shield breaks weren't meta but I think a solution was to make shields take more DMG and the problem was heighten by people's need to win a all costs like your telling that the owl couldn't have a gentleman's agreed not to use goats or double shield at all or maybe they could use it once per set
I'd say about CCs it could have simply been solved by "if you're hit by a CC, any additional CCs have reduced effect for the next 3-5 seconds" so then, oh you got hacked, that sucks but you can't really be slept or stunned for the rest of the duration and for a few seconds afterwards. That way CC comps don't really work as you would have to layer them and not just unleash all of then and nuke a tank. A hot issue not being talked about is how CC had its merits for holding certain characters in check. Such as: Wrecking Ball and Sombra. An even semi-decent Ball player can pretty easily go deathless all game because there just isn't enough CC now to stop him from hit and running. Same applies for Sombra, you either 1 shot her, hack her, or hinder her. Other than that any Sombra with good reaction time just gets out of jail for free. Possible hot take as a Genji main, but McCree should have flashbang back. It needed an actual follow up and wasn't a guaranteed bodyshot worth of damage and flashbang headshotting Tracers was a skill shot compared to hinder now. Also Brig just feels wrong not having stun on Bash and I despise Brig as a Genji, Tracer, and Winston player (yeah I like Dive, sue me) but also was fun as Rein blocking Flash with shield
IMO, 6v6 was and is more fun. I said it when OW2 released, they should’ve made a 6v6 gamemode alongside 5v5, separate queue pools for both. (Comp, QP, etc)
Calling it rose-tinted glasses is a bit silly. I play OW1 most of its life, then right before it shut down I played it again for about a week. Right after OW2 went up I played that as a tank main and immediately did not like it as much in a 5v5 format. It isn't just some OW1 nostalgia considering I got to play them back-to-back.
@@therebelfrogy9287 I got a lot better at the game being the only tank in all honesty. Could never really get tank out of gold like that. Went three straight seasons of Diamond 1 on tank. That alone made me prefer 5v5. Having to perfectly sync up with someone else was annoying, cool when it worked, but too easy to place blame over self reflection for me.
the chances of having 2 bad tanks on a team are lower than the chances of having 1 bad tank The chances of being a bad tank are lower when there is another tank buddy on your side to share responsibilities They could solve double shield by nerfing shields whenever there are 2 shield tanks in a team and giving full shields when there is only one to encourage tank and off tank metas... Deleting a tank was a lazy getaway that is bitting them in the ass
@@aerostrafe1075 I dont want to make you feel bad but, everyone who played OW1 got a rank increase going into OW2. It has nothing to do with you getting better, its more like, New players come into OW2, they dont know as much as you and thats why you climb. Add to that, that climbing in OW2 is way easier than in OW1 and you get boosted to diamond. I mean take me as an example, i was Diamond 3400 in OW1 on DPS and now in OW2 after not playing actively and acknowleding that im not as good as high elo players im still GM2 on DPS? No fucking way, thats equal to 4400 DPS in OW1, im not shit but i am not a OWL Player on DPS. I dont see how i "Improved" 1000 SR going from OW1 -> OW2. Also Tank synergies in gold never mattered, you could literally win by just being good on Zarya, i know this because i played with my friends who were gold (I was 3600 Tank at the time) and maybe its smurfing, but i tried to play hereos i dont usually play a lot, even then as Zarya i basically 1v6. Call me an asshole, but you climbing has little to do with you getting better, im sorry.
More Interesting Tanks? Wrecking Ball with his Gigabillion techs? Zarya High Damage Potential? Korean gamer girl DVA? And now Doom and Ramattra? The problem isn't that the problem is the fact the FPS audiences in general love Damage characters or any characters centered around DPSing. And if we're going down that lane, as a company why put all your eggs aka money and resources to make "more interesting tanks" in a basket that has a very small player base? That's why OW1 has released so many DPS, because again, FPS audiences, in general, tend to go for Damage/DPS characters.
@@Skycube100 ow1 originally started with only 5 tanks and ended with 8 split between 2 people and further split between main and off tank. The stagnation and lack of variety had a role in its downfall. Now in ow2 with only one tank there's alot more weight placed on them which can easily deter players from the role and just flat out adding more heroes would benefit the game and retain and pique new interest in it
Honestly though there wasn't enough PLAYERS in general; ow1 was abandoned for 3 years and the player base just offed its-self while everyone else was just trapped in a shit eccho or cheater/hacker infested nightmare
@@Skycube100 Tbh I think the reason that the Dps role is the most played role is a couple reasons, 1 they have by far the most hero's to choose from so more players will find a character in that role that they enjoy and 2, the Dps role is the least stressful role; while tank is just straight up miserable, Dps can just go about it at their own pace without really having to worry (I know there's more depth to it than that but I can't explain all that) and 3, What you said etc...
Give me some positives about overwatch 2 the only negative about overwatch 1 is that the game wasnt balanced and thats not the games fault its the balance teams fault
6v6 = having fun and synergising with your team with multiple different hero combinations 5v5 = counter picking and relying on 1 tank, if they are bad or refuse to counter pick you automatically lose
@@wazzuper11 nah for the most part they're right. at least in the metal ranks most of the time. higher elo maybe not, but the game will be an uphill battle.
@@williamhenderson1739the rock paper scissors get worse the higher you go, can’t pick any tank without the enemy immediately swapping unless they have ult
Nah this is some pure cope. 6v6 is better in every capacity for those exact reasons you present. There was MORE options for tanks to flair their skill and diverse playstyles. As a tank player I hate OW2 specifically because of 5v5, and the fact that it simply comes down to who has the better immortality supports behind them, and plays the counterpick game better. It's so fucking boring no wonder nobody wants to play tank. And for new players, I'm sure it's a very pleasant experience getting the "tank diff" message literally every single game - because the entire role balances on their shoulders alone with no margins for figuring out their own playstyle. If you don't play the "correct" meta defined way, you just get rolled in an instant. And because a tank got removed, Blizz had to overcompensate by buffing that remaining tank, and shifting the sustain further over on the supports who now have shit abilities like Suzu, Life Grip, Pylon, aoe healing en masse, and what not. So even if you do take matters into your own hands and try to find those 1v1's, you can shoot at them but you can't kill jack shit because everything in this game now has an immo ability or a get-out-of-jail-free card on a low cooldown. That is not fun. That is not good gameplay. That does not give more agency. It gaslights players into thinking they have agency, but they don't. And the illusion only lasts for a short while, until people realize "hey it doesn't matter that I avoid the tank and try to be a difference maker my own way, because I can't do shit on my own without seeing the rest of my team getting rolled in the meantime". Overwatch has never seen more criticism of matchmaking and snowball fights than it does in OW2. Guess why: 5v5. 5v5 makes everything bad about 6v6 10x worse.
@@WorldKeepsSpinninIdk if u watched the video, but a lot of things he said were true. That + he played for YEARS and the fact that he’s GM, I wouldn’t say he have no actual knowledge on the game lol.
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin I wouldn't say he's bad either. I think it's easy to assume in the clip that tracer might not have recall or he may have forgotten in the heat of the moment.
I use to love playing tank in OW1 in most cases it was more fun than playing DPS. Now it’s less fun and less rewarding. It made it more interesting with 2 tanks.
The longer into this video it gets it seems like you had a different experience than us. I dont remember matches in my elo being “unplayable” that feels more like this game when my opponent has an orisa and we have a ball.
I fucking do. It was either double shields or nothing. You had no hope of getting anywhere without them. And DPS players rather than try to break trough shields with rat or pharah wanted to hitscan duo and unload everything to shields. And then they had the balls to blame their supports or tanks and wonder why nothing died. That's the reason why I dropped comp in 2019. I don't even where this "in 6v6, tanks couldn't have impact"-comes from, because majority of the time I was at the (nonexistent) mercy of my Dps, hoping they'd understand that blasting 999 bullets at double shields won't work. And before you ask "why didn't you just take dva and ball and just past the shields?" Because 90% it just resulted in dps just staying where they were, putting bullets on shields. While other teams dps could chase me down and kill me without an issue. Oh, and they ofc blamed me for "abandoning the team". Nevermind THEY abandoned me in the character selection screen already.
@@Ruosteinenknightyeah buddy but ninety percent of the time in ladder that wasn't the experience, and in ow2 if you have one bad player you lose instantly, much less an off meta pick.
Imo since it's 5v5 now I think Rein deserves his 2000hp barrier back, especially with Mauga. I've been silent about this but as a Rein main I've been dealing with a glass shield for 5 agonizing yrs. 💀@@Rivler20
Just remember guys when ow was 6v6 it was one of if not the best fps game of its time AND game of the year, when overwatch 2 came and become 5v5 its the worst steam game ever in numbers and second worst in dislike ratio, you decide which is worse
So it's okay that tank players are quitting tanking and changing roles because of how good our heroes were early in the game? You admit that tanking is miserable and that tanks are expected to do everything and blamed immediately for losses, but since there is more of everyone else, that doesn't need to change? edit: upon reading further comments, I now see that this is actually what the community thinks. Good thing it's not leading to us all doing different stuff and you totally aren't going to lose more people out of the tank playerbase by telling them that their opinion doesn't matter.
I feel you brotherman, tank is some ass right now. Also don't be surprised that Freedo doesn't understand, he's a support player, of course he likes 5v5
What changes do you propose? It's easy to say it would be great without giving examples of changes. I've been playing since OW1 released and I think 5v5 is better overall. Two tanks is too much defense, especially if you are playing two main tanks. Plus with 6 players on each team it's just more clutter (more ults, more cc, more visual effects, etc). I think the balance is heading in the right direction (especially after the recentt support nerfs that came out after this video was released).
@@Chase_Crawford tanks that were causing problems like orisa could have been reworked or, since everyone played off and main tank, split the tanks into 2 categories or roles. some CC being removed like brig's bash or mei's hard freeze would have helped greatly
I'm pretty sure the dps queue time issue was due to everyone and their mother playing dps, which was also why role queue was needed. Was anytime else tired of being queued up with 5 other dps that confidently couldn't play any other role?
"The playability was easily hijacked by just one player messing up the team comp." ...What? How is that a pro-5v5 argument? In 5v5, if your one and only tank messes up, you're done. At least the other tank could pick up the slack in 6v6. Also, weird off-meta comps were not a big deal, whereas not partaking in this 5v5 rock-paper-scissors will most certainly guarantee a loss.
I was a tank main for ages. Even with the frustrations that come with a game like this, I NEVER wanted to move away from 6v6. I was sad watching the last of the Flats/Emmong duos... I miss the synergy of 6v6, which is I why I used to OW over other shooters. I tried not to be a negative nancy and embrace 5v5, but it doesn't feel as rewarding. I liked needing teamwork! I know I can't be the only one!
Honestly the reason i havent been play as much recently is because playing tank in ow2 is feeling more and more like playing main tank back in 1 without a proper off tank. One small missteps and you're blown up to oblivion. Theres less cc now obviously, but its still that unrewarding playstyle of wait for their team to blow all their cds or else you instantly die, and your playmaking potential feels like its just in the hands of waiting for your supports to pop off. There is still merit to the more cautious, make the perfect play at the perfect time style of tanking, but its just so punishing and the constant shouldering of the blame just makes it exhausting to play
20:30 maybe it's just the metal ranks experience, but I can tell you for sure that I feel it WAY more when one player isn't pulling their weight in my games now than I did in 6v6. You've said yourself even from before the public release of OW2 that one of the benefits of 5v5 is the individual skill expression. I knew then just as well as I know now that it's a double-edged sword. In my games in gold and plat, when the other dps, or one of the supports is off their game, the whole team feels it way more. Heaven forbid there's a tank diff, then all is immediately lost. It's much easier to know who to blame for losing our games. Yay. Does that help me win more games? Not really. Does that help my experience game to game? Idk. There will always be toxicity, especially at my rank but it seems more directed now. Since your individual impact is felt more in 5v5, it stands to reason that a lack of impact is equally noticable and it feels like people get called out individually a lot more. Honestly, it feels like 5v5 just comes down to either the best or the worst player in the lobby. If the best player isn't able to hard-carry, then you just hope that your worst player is just a *little* better than the enemy's worst player. At least in 6v6 you could sometimes make up the difference if your worst player happens to play tank, it doesn't feel like anything can fill a tank gap in 5v5.
@@Printzor as a support player in masters the only way to climb out is to start doing damage. If you look at high level gameplay, the Baptiste or Ana has a lot more damage than what you are most likely doing. Now if you play Mercy or something I am sorry.
But yeah your original comment is right, that's why I quit the game. It just never felt the same after OW2, no team play or coordination, nobody in VC now, people don't understand how the game works (or used to work idk?).
It's not only shields, but shooting at tanks, every tank has a CD rotation during which they are safe and at the end of which there's an opportunity to punish them (orisa lance + fortify, sigma shield + grasp, zarya bubbles, rein huge shield etc.) With two tanks this safe period is long enough so that both tank can't rotate they CDs and nothing dies. That's the 6v6 experience : nothing dies until everybody gets their Q and then everybody presses Q at the same time and the team that pressed Q slightly better than the other team wins the fight. It was horrible
So if orisa shield is gone because of the rework what happens when they release another tank with a shield or are we never allowed to have a shield tank
@@alfred9805 But that isnt meaningfully different then what we have now. Sure, there's no shields, but nothing dies because healing is so oppresively overtuned and they all have abilities which you are forced to play around, exactly the same as shield. There's no double shield but there might as well be when the enemy's hp is always topped up and if they ever get low it doesn't matter because the get out of jail free cooldowns on the other team
@@lemonke2964 Hell, the current oppressive healing is even worse than double shield since the limit of the team's hp is now, mostly, limitless...especially with all the jacked up healing we have.
I would have loved to hear your thoughts in this podcast. I think 6v6 should come back, but I wouldn't delete 5v5. Both sides deserve to play the way they prefer.
@@ken7007 Splitting 1 minute into 2 seems okay to me, waiting 15 min to maybe get a game like in OW1 is horrendous. Best of both worlds now that we have F2P and Steam playerbase
What makes tank so bad is every sleep,boop,stun in the game is aimed at the tank, it is fucking miserable. As a whole the 5v5 just feels like a fucking team deathmatch.
Something you touched on regarding tanks that I want to expand on. I'm a gold/plat tank player. 100% average. Touched diamond one time way back in Season 3 of Overwatch 1, so I've been here for a while. The biggest problem with 6v6 vs 5v5 for me is that main tanks were not allowed to be tanks due to how much utility off-tanks provided. Does Zarya rely on another teammate in order to do her job? Sure, she needs a warm body to walk in and take damage for her, but she can also do that herself. Do Roadhog or Dva REQUIRE assistance to do what they need to do? Not really. Did Winston need assistance to do his job as a tank? Yes, or he would just dive in and die. Without some other defensive ability, Winston just didn't work. Same goes for Reinhardt. While everyone wanted a Reinhardt, not everyone wanted to give him a Lucio so he could actually play the game, or play Zarya to give him extra defense. Reinhardt is a character that does great when enabled but falls hard alone. Roadhog, or Zarya? Well they can do whatever they want, and I think that's what some of the current OW2 tank players are disappointed by. Of course someone who played Zarya or Hog in OW1 would be a bit more frustrated when losing their main tank. They were the ones taking all the aggro, now they have to deal with it. It also explains why there weren't many tank players in general. "Oh boy I can't wait to play as a character that requires another person in order to function" doesn't exactly sell a role well. It's why even when you got tanks in your lobbies they'd just play two off-tanks half the time. At least those characters have individual agency, even if they don't sync up together well. I don't think balance is quite there yet for tanks in 5v5, Hog and Ball are obvious, but Reinhardt still needs some love so he's less dependent on his team to do his job too. He shouldn't have to rely on a speed boost or stats getting poured into him in order to close the gap when every single tank released after Overwatch 1 launched has had some form of defensive ability to take care of this problem for them. (excluding Sigma but he's not supposed to close gaps.) Point being, the hero fantasy of tanks in Overwatch 1 was that you make space and protect your team, but in actuality it felt like your team protected you in order for you to even exist. Less agency compared to other roles just led to people either moving to said other roles, or just switching to an off-tank that played more like a DPS.
As an 18 yr old who plays quite casually for maybe 2 or 3 hours every other day I can confirm that 6v6 was better for tank gameplay. It’s simply too stressful and not fun anymore. Also 6v6 put supports in check and prevented them from running every match. The only role that 5v5 benefited was dps, they are the main people I see complaining abt 6v6 while us tanks suffer through 5v5.
Your tanking for your whole team, your are the bullet taker, you are the ability eater YOU are the biggest most powerful role on the field... it should feel stressful and difficult...thats what it means to be a tank you should not be queing for tank wanting it to feel like your playing support or dps...
@@silis4645yeah but when it comes down to rock paper scissoring with the other tank to win the game that’s not skill. that’s just counter picking to win the game
@@silis4645not rewarding whatsoever for tank players who wanna play a certain tank just to be counter picked in QP and forced to swap bc they have no choice. not saying you can’t win but it’s way harder to do so.
I think this is a difference in opinion over the word "fun." This video mentions that the 6v6 camp was skewed by the top 500 environment where tanks tried to synergize, but this video is also skewed by always buying the new heroes and having dozens of hours to practice several characters. Casual players, that probably make up the majority of players, *don't want to do homework to play video games after work.* Most just want to play the character the think is fun and have a decent chance of winning. If none of your top 3 characters in a role are viable because the balance or DLC heroes hard-counter them, then you have to choose between feeling crappy because you're getting shutdown, feeling crappy because you suck at the character that counters what they're playing, or feeling crappy because you got forced off what you *wanted* to play just for a shot at winning. Having "fun" for those players is hoping that the characters you like to play (in any role) just happen to fit the meta on any given day. Aside from the lack of consistent fun, there's also he moral issue of paywalling heroes and moving the game towards counter-swapping being mandatory. That basically guarantees there will be moments where paying players will have definite advantages - even if it's only in quickplay. I don't know if 6v6 necessarily fixes that, but the current game balance was not fun or an improvement on 6v6 for me personally.
Havent watched the Video yet, all i can say is i played OW1 for 4k+ Hours, had fun even in graveyard Season and overall the game felt more fun with its Big Teamfights, more synergies and less Opressive 1 Shots. OW2 i have played for like 300 Hours the last year (100 of them in S1) it just doesnt hit the same as OW1, it feels soulless, fights feel like a deathmatch where everyone does what they want and nobody even tries to cooperate or talk to each other. Things like - Solo Tanking feeling horrible - 1 Shots getting more oppressive because of less protection - Supports having to be made OP to stand a chance (and because of it, being just better DPS in disguise, i mean Kiriko and Illari can basically 1v1 every DPS with relative ease) - Off-Tanks feeling out of place in 5v5 - Fights boiling down to "Who gets the first kill" or "Which Tank can kill the backline faster" which dumbs down the game a lot etc. 6v6 had problems, but they were fixable. 2x Shield was fixable by either reworking Orisa (like they did for OW2 and they didnt even try to release her for 6v6), or by nerfing Sigmas Grasp and Orisas Fortify so that you could dive them. The Qtimes were fixable by making the game alive, think about it, the Qtimes only went bad because 1. The Game got no Content 2. The game got no patches and was stuck on 2x Shield meta 3. The game was not F2P 4 years after release 4. People quit OW1 waiting for OW2 All these aspects led to the Qtimes going shit and i think it could have been avoided. I wont be playing much OW2 as long as 6v6 and SR Ranked System isnt back, its just an inferior version of OW1, released to make quick money with BP and Shop Skins. Sad what they have done to my favourite game.
@@VambraceMusic There were 20+ seasons of OW1, I mained almost every character at one point. When Tracer was countered, I just picked someone else instead of meat-grindering myself into Brig and complaining.
"if one of your tank players doesn't play well in 6v6 you lose more than in 5v5" sooooo my hog in numbani wasn't a throw pick which made us unable to play at all but actually was the one thing that allowed us to play respawn simulator 2
I’m sorry but half the points you made in this video are straight up incorrect and the other half are highlighting issues with overwatch 1 until you realize they are even worse in Overwatch 2
exactly why 5v5 is a disaster. it fails miserably to attract new players to the role and the old tank players left over from OW1 are leaving or already left the game.
From the channel that brought you great hits like, "Overwatch 2 has the best monitization" and "No it's wonderful that new heroes are behind a paywall now you guys are just poors".
the reason why counterpicking for tank is at an all-time high is that there isn't any way to compensate for your counters if you're getting dove as ana, your other support can go brig if you need to deal with pharah as junkrat, your other dps can go widow (as long as she doesn't have a mercy) if you're getting countered by orisa as reinhardt, you can um, uh, well you see, uh, die I guess idk. OW 1 wasn't like this because you had that other tank to compensate for that (dva could help winston/ball vs hog by eating damage. Zarya could help rein if he's getting pressured too hard at close range by reaper etc). Tldr: Removing a tank makes it so that you don't have anything to compensate for your counters, which is something the other roles don't suffer from.
Nah bro, 6v6 was so much better. I quit playing tank entirely coz you only play counter not the hero you want, if the enemy is an Orisa main you are doomed, one tank sucks. I even believe elo hell is real now coz of one tank, 5matches good tank, the next 5 u get a bad tank and get rolled so bad. I rarely get close games nowadays. DPS sucks coz they can't kill anything. I play only support nowadays
People are forgetting how many problems in OW1 revolved around tanks. Role queue was implemented because of tanks. There weren't enough players and often support players or dps players had to switch to the tank role and you'd end up with 1 tank, 1 support and 4 dps or 1 tank, 2 support and 3 dps. Even then Blizzard was sticking to their guns and refusing to implement role queue until goats became a thing and suddenly all the dps players felt forced to play tank if they didn't want to lose. Everyone was miserable. No one was happy. Goats existed as a meta long enough for even the metal ranks to start getting the very basics of it. After role queue, tanks were still a problem! Most tank players (the few that there were in the player pool) wanted to play off-tank, not main tank. If they were stubborn your team would end up with two off-tanks. It was not fun trying to attack gibraltar with a dva and a hog as your tanks. So many tank players were just players from other roles looking for a faster queue time, refusing to play anything other than hog or dva. Even when you did manage to get two tanks that synergised, there is no guarantee that your tanks even understood what to do. Especially in the lower ranks, where you have a majority of the player base. It didn't matter that you ran winston/dva on gibraltar when your dva was always off on a solo mission leaving your winston to get blown up when he dove in. It didn't matter that you were running double bubble when no one was in voice chat and the zarya kept bubbling at the wrong time. And nothing felt worse than trying to play the best tank for your team comp and map while your other tank player was off on a solo feeding mission and the enemy tanks were actually working together. Going back to 6v6 is not the answer.
I think the idea we need to consider is that we wouldn’t be reverting to 6v6, but FORWARD to 6v6. I think there is argument to be made, now that I’ve watched the video, that with what we have now and some minor tweaks (maybe putting shield tanks in a separate category so only one can be chosen), 6v6 sounds healthier for everyone. The stomp of 5v5 is enough of a reason not to play regularly. I played the heck out of OW1, but can only take so much of OW2 as it is even more frustrating. I didn’t know the arguments for 6v6 before this video, just heard the call for it, but nearly every point Freedo made I disagreed with.
6v6 really would be a better game, it's kinda obvious to see now that 5v5 has played out. Tanks are so unfun it hurts, support is so op they control the game, and dps are basically playing deathmatch and hoping their supports do the right thing at the right time
As a main tank player SINCE OVERWATCH 1 SEASON 2 I’ll attest that 5v5 is less miserable overall than 6v6. I like the agency of picking a tank and not having to worry about my off tank player not trying to synergize whatsoever. Now I can pick my a tank and have the rest of my team not try to synergize whatsoever. At least in 5v5 I have the agency to pop off for like 2-3 fights before the enemy team counters me. In 6v6 it’s way harder to pop off in a situation where there’s no team synergy. Overwatch 1 was no tank synergy no win overwatch 2 is no team synergy? You can still possibly pop off and carry. It’s not easy but it’s not impossible like it was in 6v6
@@vopcracker3193 I was plat season 2 overwatch one (probably before you ever touched the game) and have been casually sitting in gold/silver ever since. If you read/understood my comment you would know that tank synergies just don’t happen in low level play 6v6 and in 5v5 there’s more space in the game to pop off compared to playing 6v6 where your team most likely doesn’t have a good tank combo. If you have enough iq and/or mechanics it is possible to pop off in 5v5
@@vopcracker3193 your idea of “6v6 level coordination” was non existent in 6v6 unless ur gm. You need one less kill in 5v5 to end a team fight and there’s one less tank stunning/shooting at you so yes in 5v5 it’s easier to pop off without synergy compared to 6v6 where there’s still no synergy PLUS there’s another tank shooting at you AND on top of that the other team might have a good tank combo while ur stuck playing rein/hog
@@johnseidle655 OK man 😂 since you want to measure dicks: I've been playing Overwatch since it's release around 2013. Consistently gold/silver as well; I know all about how coordination works in this game I can assure you. You cannot pop off in this game like DPS and Supports can. Tank synergies absolutely happened in low level play; the whole point of two tanks was to have a strong frontline that can cover weaknesses and punish bad positioning. In low-elo, these were much less effective but they didn't stop existing just becuase your team was shit. Compared to now however, it was a hell of a lot more fair. Tanks were to be respected not simply fed resources to buy time for cooldown management. To be honest, Tanks didn't even NEED to pop off either to be fun in OW1; The role was simply better defined and holding the frontline felt impactful instead of an absolute chore with no real payoff. Mechanics mean nothing when any idiot can swap Orisa, spam Fortify and Spear and get enough value for Supports and DPS by stalling without any actual skill at all.
"the game is more fun in all aspects, including tanking" literal clown statement. absolutely in denial of reality and the voices of so many people who don't enjoy tanking as much or have stopped tanking completely.
6v6 was better and the devs can't even play their own game without throwing and griefing their team. They're out of touch saying dumb shit online trashing people who want 6v6 back just like they talked shit on the guy who asked for classic wow like "you think you want that but you don't." Guess what, people got classic and love it. Blizz was wrong then and they're wrong now. Nothing new, Blizzard is dead and nobody is surprised.
"Tank is very difficult and challenging" man it's fucking MISERABLE. Tanks aren't allowed to do anything without forcing their supports to basically pocket them. Everyone else gets to run around and have impact, but tanks are forced to just stand on point and hope things happen. Even Super, one of the best tank players in the game, can use every ability including his ultimate, and actually get no value out of them and he's the one that dies.
The reason there isn't a gap between average ranking vs high level tanking is because tanks are at the mercy of the other players, particularly supports.
I'm one that loves the tanks in the game. They're so fun and unique, but actually playing them is an awful experience. If I want to actually have fun, I queue for dps or support. If I queue flex for my challenges, I know I'm only going to be playing tank because nobody wants to play the role.
This is everything I feel
Imma be honest I don't know how he felt that was a positive when he said it. The gap between high ranks and low ranks should be similar across all roles and he said there wasn't much of one. 🤷♂️
Also impossible to have fun on tank, if you start rolling they will 5 stack counter pick you. Like bro I just wanna play doom and not go against Orisa/Zarya paired with a sombra + mercy because I got 2 kills with a rocket punch
freedo is so rude and obnoxious as soon as someone has an different opinion he said we have memory loss rose tinted glasses and ludicrous, are you serious freedo ? We are not allowed a different opinion to you ? You really think you are going to change are opinions ?
At this point I only do my All Queue challenges and then go back to soloing in DPS or Support. I used to love being a good tank but now it is just miserable because if you don't pick the meta you just get flamed, even if you are good at playing the tank you try to pick...
I think both have their own unique pros and cons since each fundamentally change how the game is played, however I almost never queue tank anymore cause it’s straight up a miserable experience in almost every game. Something needs to change
True
On the rare occasion I play anything other than Total Mayhem now I only play dps. Which, I almost never played DPS in OW1 and Sombra is the only DPS character I play in OW2. Playing support makes me want to walk into traffic and playing tank is just miserable.
@@thegolem9325 literally exact same
Do not worry my friends, some of us still pick up the hammer. We die immediately... but we do pick it up.
common tank player sentiment for metal ranks
The worst part about OW2 is how limited your team becomes the second you tank chooses. Too often I load into Gibraltar our tank picks attack rein, and we get obliterated curb stomped because we choose a melee low ground brawl tank on a map with 2.5 points of high ground. I miss the days when your tank comp could double up on one skill set (like brawl), do a variation like double bubble, or go two different tanks like rein/dva and you could have all your bases covered for defensive terrain. Which supports can feasible contest a widow/Hanzo/soldier/echo with a healer on high ground, the answer is zero of them. It feels bad to have 1 player on your team responsible for choosing a hero that is map specific or else you lose.
A good point he didn't bring up. Maps were not made for 5v5 and we're just stuck in this weird spot of people yelling at their tank to go take care of high ground while they also have to move the cart, duel the other tank, and protect supports
@@A_Larvitar ironically enough I think the maps that would play BETTER 5v5 is 2cp. Less stall, less bunker capabilities on defense, less damage mitigation. I'm not saying it would be fixed/perfect but some of the problems were caused by 2 tanks stalling on point 2 defense
@@A_Larvitartanks aren't supposed to move the cart buddy that's the supports job
I'd argue that Ana, Illari Bap and Moira all have that potential. I've out-sniped widows numerous times as Ana, Illari is proving to be good at mid and ranged duels, a decent Moira knows how to flank, and Bap should also be strong on distance duels due to his kit, not to mention his mobility allowing him to get places faster than most of the other supports. Now, throw in the DPS getting the pocket and yes, it's more difficult, but if anyone else on the team has any sort of awareness, then it shouldn't be just one support vs in this scenario. The problem becomes the awareness rather than the comp itself.
@@C0rran05 the effort for a nap/moiria/illari to reach a snipers position to even attempt a dual will be a throw by the time you reach the snipers position in most cases. Equally in most cases (not all) to utilize mobility/utilities/healing abilities means your team is missing those benefits from you as a support. I personally understand that getting proactive as a support is sometimes the only option, but with every sniper/ranged DPS having a movement ability and a close range DPS option it just feels bad pursuing a character that can hit you for 200 damage in 1 second and costing your team a support
As someone with over 5k hours in the game, I will always say this.. bring 6v6 back for a season in arcade. See how it is. Collect the data. The players want it so give it to them.
Fax
Most comp players don't really play arcade mode. They should replace open queue with 6v6 for a season and see how it does
Or just add 6v6 as a competitive mode without replacing open queue
Big brain comment right here. Seriously, I'd love this...
the reason they wont do this is because they already know 6v6 is better and they will receive so much hate and people asking for 6v6 to be the main game but the only reason 5v5 was even created was to make ow2 look like a new game and not just an update... but its literally 10x worse and they would never just own up and say u know what 5v5 didnt work we are reverting it, will never happen unless by some god microsoft step in and actually fix the game
@@gi1kxsy908 dude, even the prop-hunt game had more people playing that than anything else.
I appreciate the video but I cannot get behind the "5v5" is better for all roles. There is NO way its better for tanks. Counterpicking ruins it for me. Even if there was a bad tank synergy, I could always pick a tank to try and synergize better with my other tank. Of course, if the other tanks picked a better "synergy", then it could be tough, but I would still take that any day over the "oh hes on dva, ill go zar" gameplay. I cant even pick a hero I like playing because it immediately gets countered, especially if im playing well. So either I get punished for playing well and forced to counterpick them, or I am throwing the game. For that reason alone, I went from tank main to support main and much more dps play (which in OW1, I NEVER picked). The counterpicking is the lamest thing to come to ow2 as a former tank main.
freedo is so rude and obnoxious as soon as someone has an different opinion he said we have memory loss rose tinted glasses and ludicrous, are you serious freedo ? We are not allowed a different opinion to you ? You really think you are going to change are opinions ?
@@nufcjoker9057 yeah, freedo lost me on this one, I stopped playing the game because the tank experience is completely dogshit. I believe freedo is just catering to DPS players for content at this point
I fully agree.
Exactly how I feel about it, I was a tank main on OW1, but nowadays it's a terrible and stressful experience.
You can start rolling the enemy team and then after the first two fights they 5 stack counter you lol. I can say for certain that even playing DPS it doesn't happen as often like it does for tank.
U should have counters in a fps game. NO HERO SHOULD BE UN-COUNTERABLE.
The only problem I have with 5v5 is the Stomp or Be Stomped experience. With one less tank and counter picking, being rolled every single teamfight, sometimes for multiple games in a row, is very common. And it’s extremely frustrating and draining.
Tell me about it. It even happens in my QP games. It’s never a fun balanced game with 5v5, it’s always roll or get rolled and both of those are boring as hell.
But 5v5 is good. They just need to ad 6v6 as a game mode
Just like Freedo said. A lot of people don't know how to play OW2. That's why the stomp or be stomped is the problem. If my Tank is bad. I take more space on DPS by getting good damage angles to take off some pressure from my tank. Depending on what Support character I'm playing I'll do the same thing.
Lmfao, ypu never had Rein and Sigma or Orissa and Sigma set up double barrier in front of spawn have you? Shit prevented you from playing the game 🤡
@elusivegoat3647 Bronze life huh?
Tank synergies only mattered at the top? EXACTLY. That is why 6v6 was better for the majority of the playerbase. You literally just said it. Outside of the top, pretty much every tank combination could work, where your skill on the hero could make up tank-on-tank counters to a good extent. In 5v5, the single tank is the focal point. And the counterpicking is so incredibly oppressive that even a single DPS or Support hero can negate 80% of the value of some tanks simply by existing. In 5v5, the tank-on-tank counterpicking is so bad because there is only a single tank. Counterpicking is so fundamental in how the game plays that it makes the game abysmal to play for tanks AT ALL TIERS OF PLAY. Not just at the top, like in 6v6, but for EVERYONE.
You went back and forth on this three times in the video. Tank synergies only matter at the top. But then 5 minutes later. You can't play the game without the right tank synergy.
Thank you! Couldn't have said it better. What made overwatch fun as opposed to other fps games was the moba aspect, the fact that you needed to use your brain and synergize was the point! Now you just can't do that at all unless you have perfect aim which is just like ever other fps and I don't just want to point and shoot all day, I want a more complex game so there are less braindead players 😅
freedo is so rude and obnoxious as soon as someone has an different opinion he said we have memory loss rose tinted glasses and ludicrous, are you serious freedo ? We are not allowed a different opinion to you ? You really think you are going to change are opinions ?
preach my man
@@nufcjoker9057he’s a whiny DPS player what’d you expect? he got what he wanted in OW2 but yet he’s still yapping.
@@lukedorney3933 he not an dps player he’s an main support , dps is the role he plays the less ..
Going 5v5 has basically caused issues for characters and reworks that weren't too much of an issue in 6v6.
Are you guys suffering from dimentia?
And offered solutions for problems that were ignored in 6v6.
@@User-gj9pbdebatable lmao
@@User-gj9pb no. There were problems that couldn’t be solved with balancing
I just wanna see rein zar combos again
Yeah for me that comment about 6v6 being more team oriented and less deathmatchy is exactly why I never like the change to 5v5 in the first place and it only got worse over time.
Very rarely do people go out of their way to actually know what’s going on with their team in order to help now. everyone just wants to jump in blind and start fighting or whatever they want without even thinking about the team or different ways of approaching a situation.
*that’s not to say 6v6 didn’t have its problems and that 5v5 didn’t come with benefits, but overall to me 5v5 was a tipping point where they just wanted to attract the wider audience from competing games and no longer cared about the core of what overwatch is/was
What you said. Long sweaty team battles with clutch ults is what it was and all that’s gone. The magic has left the building
exactly 5v5 feels like a limited time arcade mode that got old quick
@@1trillions yeah a Chinese knock off
So it seems that the general takeaway is this: "5v5 is better, because now there's more counter potential for an individual player. The tank role has been pretty much shafted entirely to get to this point, so the other 4 players can do whatever they want now. But that's fine, because tank players make up the far minority of the playerbase anyways."
I dont even understand how even dmg mains are enjoying this
1: they lost one of the most unique characters ever made in a fps, and thats Doomfist
2: hence the absence of a tank they are way more free to flank, but who are you flanking? Baptiste the immortal god? Ilari? Kiriko? Good luck with that
@@passadeliriousWE ARENT BRO idk what the hell fredo is talking about. “Atleast in 5v5 you can shoot things even if u are getting rolled” no we cant. We either literally sit there being spawn camped, or flank into 4 people all grouped up and instantly kill us cuz the rest of our team is just dead to nothing + the 100 immoral abilities in the game, then if we play with our tank we just sit at a choke forever til we lose.
DPS was WAYYY better in overwatch 1 and i played the last 3 seasons before overwatch 1 turned into overwatch 2 so i have very recent memories of this. And 6v6 was SOOO much better even in the double shield and spam CC state it was in (which would be fixed right now if we stayed 6v6 btw) 2 weeks into overwatch 2 i was already saying 5v5 was horrible.
If this game stays 5v5 its over. Im telling you. We all know blizzard wont rework all the heros to actually fit in 5v5 so we will always just have this shitty stomp or be stomped experience. THATS EVEN EFFECTING THE CASUALS. Thats the worse part, soon even they will quit along with the hardcore players following very soon.
Tank player POV:
Ok I forced pylon
Ok I forced suzu
Ok I forced torb turret
Ok I forced bastion form
Ok I forced javelin
Ok I forced fortify
Now I can play the game
This isn't all that better, the problems have just been shifted elsewhere.
Fredo is too high up on his soapbox notice tanks hate this mode.
Every game and I mean every game has a tank leave mid game because they get diffed, inconvenienced or flamed. I feel bad for tank mains and can barely play this game when the game still struggles to find a tank to replace them.
I’m getting “stop bitching tanks “ energy from him.
@@Trailmix305 If your tank is rage quitting I'm going to assume it's some dumbo who can only play things like DVa to get their socks off with a 4 kill ult or trying to play hog to 1hko people with hook (but failing).
5v5, playing as tank, seriously feels like Rock Paper Scissors and I hate it.
Not only that, i feel like a punching bag half the time
freedo is so rude and obnoxious as soon as someone has an different opinion he said we have memory loss rose tinted glasses and ludicrous, are you serious freedo ? We are not allowed a different opinion to you ? You really think you are going to change are opinions ?
And also everyone is so toxic towards tanks. I played tank in comp a few times, but then stopped completely, because people would start insulting me and talking crap to me and I would get ALL the blame no matter how hard I was trying. If the DPS and Support did bad, it must have been because of the tank, so now i just que up for support or dps.
@@nufcjoker9057 Stop spamming dude.
its just rock paper scissors with some flashing colors and thats it
My biggest problem with 5v5 is that it changed the entire fundamentals of playing the game. 6v6 was structured around team play and synergy building, where now 5v5 feel more like lane dueling. The game abruptly changed from looking to break down a team together and gone to chaotic duelist battleground, so for the og player base it’s a different game in approach completely.
It definitely did change the fundamentals of the game, but team play and synergy building still very much exist in 5v5 (dive comps, rush comps, bunker, etc.) it's just that now it's more balanced between those aspects and the shooter gameplay.
The og playerbase was tiny and ever dwindling. The change to 5v5, and to be more focused on skill expression and duelling rather than who has the better team opens up overwatch to a larger playerbase.
@@kevingerstner9001 Does synergy actually matter tho in 5v5? You can just play Orisa and any teammate can just play whatever they feel like. The problem here in 5v5 is that if a tank dominates enough and not just because a character is broken but also if that tank player is skilled enough the synergy just doesn't matter at all at any tier.
what rank were you in 2018 and in end of OW1
@@kenerb654 what does that have to do with what I said?
I wish at least a 6vs6 QP game mode, now theres always one of my group of friends that need to stay out and i miss playing duo tanks with my wife
I know you said qp, but there's something wholesome about the idea of a couple climbing the ranks in overwatch in competitive
@mentlegen3887 well in overwatch 1 me and my wife we be able to make all the way from bronze to high diamond just playing every night, now she only play supports when i stuck in the dps role in mid diamond, i feels is not the same fun that play the same role, i suck in supporting and she suck in dps so we are doomed haha
I feel you. My fiancée played a little bit of OW because of her friends, and really liked Zarya, but never got a chance to truly learn to play. I started tank duoing with her so she could learn in Quick Play and it was so fun to support each other. I got to play tanks like Wrecking Ball and get so many bubbles. And she got to experience melting things at max charge constantly. It was so funny.
This is, imo, the best solution. Just provide an official 6v6 mode. I really do like the 5v5, and I play a lot of tank games because I queue for all roles usually (I remember not long ago that would mean I was playing support all day, lol). I have personally felt that most games give you a fighting chance, and on tank I usually don't need to swap much. Or I refuse to swap because I like playing which ever tank I'm on, usually Dva. If you understand your tank well enough, you can play around the other team/tank pretty well most of the time, outplaying the counter play. I've forced the whole enemy team to swap to counters before, which feels good because it means they know they can't outplay you otherwise, but sucks because it can become unsustainable at times when EVERY pick is made just to take YOU out, lol.
I short, its kind of a mixed bag with all sorts of pros and cons, but I agree the main set up should actually be the 5v5, but the 6v6 was rather iconic and fun in its own right, so I'd love to have the 6v6 as an option for casual play.
I just wanna have rein zar duos again it was so much fun
I truly wish 6v6 could come back at least as a arcade mode
Overwatch would never do that, it would take all the tank players from the competitive queue lol.
There’s so much wrong with 5v5 but sadly devs rarely if ever go back on such changes even if literally everyone wants them to.
I would love for 6v6 to return. It doesn’t have to be 2 tanks, they could make an off tank specific type to avoid double shields. If any1 remembers early ow1, there was a section where torb, mei, hog, and i think they added sym to that slot too before dps - wrecking ball for example would make an excellent addition to the role.
the only way to get double shield at the moment is rein sig and that isn't that good
Or they could ballance creativelly. Like if you have 2 shield tanks on a game their shields are nerfed by a percentage and give full shield if there is only 1.
Give it a lore excuse like "oh our battery can only handle one we'll have to share lol" or some bullshit like that.
@@Yorishiriamorioh that’s an idea I had but with open queue.
For example healing is reduced by 5% for each support class.
The only issue with that is what happens when someone switches mid team fight. If someone dies early as rein then switch off rein does there sig get an increased barrier?
I would like to see maybe defensive dps be able to take the tank role too. it'd probably solve a lot of problems with that q time
Queue times would be horrendous if main tanks and off tanks had their own queue
6v6 should never have been removed, they could have easily made it a separate game mode in arcade.
Or could be a separate qp and comp version
2x Tank was the best thing in OW. imagine if we had reworked tanks but with ow1 damage values and 6v6
Then they going to rework again
@@tyreemiller1389 all they would have to do is change tank damage values and health back to OW1 levels and keep all the reworkd we have (example: orisa javelin, rein 2x firestrike etc.)
Agreed. Tank cc / ultimates make the game so fun especially when you combo 2 together
Just let the tanks have slightly different abilities depending on presets they pick like off tank or full tank that way one tank will have the barriers and the other tank will be like the back up.
NO ONE PLAYED TANK. WHAT DO YOU MEAN TANKS ALWAYS RUINED THE GAME. DOUBLE SHIELD SUCKED DOUBLE FLANKES WERE JUST BALL SLAM PLUS WINSTON JUMP DYING IN ONE SECOND. YOU GUYS DONT EVEN REMEMBER OVERWATCH YOUR JUST BLINDED BY NEVER BEING SATISFIED WITH ANYTHING AND ALWAYS LOOKING BACK ON PAST MEMORY FONDLY AND ITS FUCKING INSANE
The key reasons given in the video for 5v5 being better are simply not true, are still problems in OW2 like they were in OW1, or could be fixed in 6v6 through hero balance/reworks and adding more Tank & Support heroes.
*(Queue Times)* - The argument that going to 5v5 was needed because there wasn't enough Tank players in 6v6 is a faulty argument. The Tank role is largely seen as the least fun role BY FAR right now, because of the lack of team play + lack of interactions between Tank heroes, as well as the constant Tank counter-swapping getting on everyone's nerves. The amount of Tank players you lose going from 6v6 to 5v5 really hurts Tank queues. The Tank queues in 5v5 are instant queues like they were in 6v6, whereas DPS & Support have longer queues times, just like it was in OW1, showing that the change to 5v5 did not fix any queue time problems, especially since we are past the honeymoon phase of people trying out how the Tank role feels in OW2. A MASSIVE reason why the DPS queues were so long in 6v6 is because we have always had such a low amount of Tank & Support heroes compared to Damage heroes. At end of OW1, we had 8 Tanks, 17 Damage, & 7 Supports, so no wonder the Damage role queues were the longest.
*(DPS Game Quality)* - Sure you had to get around the enemy Tanking in 6v6, but that was also the case for the enemy. Having a 2nd Tank on the team gave the DPS players more space to make plays. A major issue with 5v5 that I experience when I play the Damage role, is that instant death comes out of nowhere far more than it did in 6v6. Also, for your average player that cannot hit shots on squishies as much, having a 2nd Tank to shoot made them feel like they are having a more consistent impact in the fight. As long as overall sustain is balanced properly so fights don't come to a stale-mate, then there is no such thing as 6v6 feeling sluggish. The pace of 6v6 can be controlled through hero balance/reworks.
*(Haven't Played 5v5 Long Enough)* - Well OW2 has been out for a whole year at this point, and the over-emphasis on counter-picking in 5v5 is a real problem that cannot be gotten used to. Counter-picking still existed in OW1, but it wasn't as severe or straight forward in 6v6. Having 1 Tank vs 1 Tank directly encourages counter-swapping whenever you can, and people are sick of it. Again, OW2 has been out for basically a year at this point, so people have played Tank enough in 5v5 to know they don't like playing Tank; no amount of extra time will change that.
*(Tank Synergies)* - Freedo points out in the video that 90% or so of the player-base had to play Reinhardt in order to not have a hard time. Well if that was the case, then Reinhardt is still a must pick in 5v5 like he was in 6v6. If the OW2 Reinhardt changes, new Tank heroes being released, or other balance changes have changed that, then those changes could have been done in 6v6 as well to make more Tank diversity for more tiers of play. Double Barrier was very fixable while still keeping Orisa & Sigma viable when paired with other Tanks. Fortify & Kinetic Grasp needed nerfed or 1 or both abilities reworked, so that Brawl & Dive can be effective against Orisa & Sigma once they close the distance. Fortify & Kinetic Grasp being as good as they were, in the kit of Ranged Tanks, negated their weaknesses to Brawl & Dive comps. Tanks like Roadhog & Wrecking Ball should have been reworked even in 6v6, in order for them to fit better in different Tank pairs. Most Tank pairs have been severely under-rated. There are a lot more viable Tank pairs than most people realize. Also, them giving Winston a ranged fire option for OW2 is an example of something they could do in 6v6 to make more Tank pairings closer in power level to each other. Damage & Support pairings are very important too though; for example, a Rush Support paired with a Ranged Support is not synergistic. This will always be the case for every role, so no need to remove a Tank slot just because certain tanks synergize with each other more than others.
*(Importance of Good Team Compositions)* - It is a MASSIVE misconception that having a good team comp in 5v5 is less important than in 6v6. In 5v5, because of having to play out in the open more than before, if you don't have the right Tank that can create enough space for your DPS & Supports to make plays, then your team can get rolled very easily. In 6v6, having a 2nd Tank on each team means that both teams have enough space to get into their effective range, and have space to make plays, regardless of what their Tank pair is. I've already stated that Tanks like Roadhog & Wrecking Ball should have been reworked even in 6v6; this would allow for Roadhog & Wrecking Ball to better create space for their team. A current example of a horrendous team comp in 5v5 that causes you to lose a lot of matches would be a Doomfist paired with hit-scan heroes who need a Tank to hold the space in-front of them and block for them in order for them to make plays, but Doomfist does not do that like other Tanks can (I'd rework Doomfist back into a Damage hero with OW1 Doomfist's abilities, but remove stun from Rocket Punch, and reduce his knock-backs - in turn, his wall impact damage would be removed).
Reworks
Orisa - her shield is now retrievable like sigma and goes on a small cd but if it gets destroyed it goes on a longer cd.
Winston- if his gun shoots through Shields it increases its dmg output.
Dva- her missles do more shield dmg.
Certain DPS due more dmg to barriers
This whole comment put my thoughts clearly than my comment on the video. Thank you
Dps and support queue times are shorter in OW2. Just because they are still longer than tank doesn’t make them actually the same length of time as in OW1. Logically, looking for 4 other players, especially looking for 1 less tank takes a shorter amount of time.Faulty argument
@@kash_6115 I remember back in 2020 (before the devs stopped updating the game), that the Queue Times were extremely similar to how they are now in OW2 (only difference is Support is more popular than DPS now). Yes queue's were worse at the end of OW1 than they are now because the devs abandoned the game.
Bro cooked, but you forgot 1 thing about Qtimes
OW2 is
- F2P
- Gets new content monthly
- Gets fast and impactful changes that shake up the meta (They are not good changes, but they do atleast keep it from becoming stale)
These 3 points MASSIVELY increase player counts.
If Blizzard announced F2P + BP + Shop + New Monthly Content for Overwatch im 2019, didnt even bother to do PvE and just kept growing PvP OW
It would be in a 10000x better spot right now
I think the problem with 5v5 is that it was a lazy solution to a problem they (being the devs) created. Make good tanks and give tank players more options and there would have been more tank players in que overall. 5V5 just felt like a lazy way to nerf comps that the devs couldn't fix after they created them and a lazy way to fix the que time problems.
This is a common occurrence with the overwatch balance team. They're met with balance challenges and come up with some lazy cop out to get them out of putting in work and dealing with it in a healthy way. Cop out 1 - Brig, Cop out 2 - Role lock, Cop out 3 - 5v5. I predict cop out 4 will be no hero switching in game or a cooldown on it to get around the tank problem of everyone constantly switching to counter them. Every cop out has made the game significantly worse so game will probably die after that.
I've always said 5v5 was blizzard's only solution to kill double shield meta... But then they reworked Orisa(for the better) and that fixed it by her self right there lmao
lazy solution... it was literally the same solution they came up with when 3 tanks and 3 supports were meta for 10 years and they didnt understand how to fucking balance mother fucking supports and tanks to do less damage and healing then THE ACTUAL DPS HEROES in their game
idk man, any game with roles has a tank problem. it's a role that inherently has a lot of pressure put on it and requires a lot of strategy and mind games. a lot of people just don't have the mindset needed for tanking (or they need more experience with the game to build it up) so there will always be less tank players by nature.
@@endless_del I disagree, I think if you give good incentives (Good tanks, with a wide variety of viable, but fun playstyles) to play tank, then you would inherently attract players that are new or veterans alike to the tank role. Giving tank players, specifically, more options would have helped prevent role-burnout or players avoiding the role altogether. This possibly could have led to alternative ways to move the meta along that wouldn't have fundamentally changed the way the game was played by morphing it into a counter pick game as well. I think people forget that before in OW1, in order to reach the very top levels you had to do three things really well, among others, but the main three are as follows Understand team compositions, master mechanics (we'll group aim in with mechanics), and master positioning. To me 5v5 feels like the removal, or at least the partial removal, of a fundamental aspect of the game being "Understand team compositions". Thus, making it a lazy solution to a problem the devs couldn't solve. I think the larger, overarching, issue is role-to-hero-inequality from the developers.
I do miss 6v6, the tank duo specifically, and probably only because I had a duo... I think the balance issues are making this desire to go back stronger, it's like being in a new relationship and after the first big fight you start thinking maybe the old relationship was better
duos aside, the worst part of 5v5 gotta be that the game is over as soon as the tank refuses to adapt and switch as needed
@@itsbeeva
Which I think could be solved with taking power away from "stand there menacingly" strategies, something harder to do in 6v6
Anyone willing to play tank and had a friend that would play tank too led to a great time. Nothing was more fun than tanking with your buddy.
@@itsbeeva Eh, that happens with every role
I think some of the problem is that you're only looking at it from your level of play. I can attest that from an average player level, the game is no longer "balanced", it's far less enjoyable because no one looks at it as a team based game, and all the matches tend to be stomp or be stomped. I have had very few of what I would call balanced, enjoyable matches since the game went to 5v5.
They always only see it from their level and can’t seem to fathom that not everyone is a gm
i play in GM on my main account and ive played in diamond and masters on my smurf, i can assure u the game is just as miserable if not more miserable at higher levels of play i genuinely have no idea what fredo is thinking he is just plain wrong, no matter the rank ow2 is worse than ow1 in every way unless ur playing support
bro no one looked at 6v6 as a team game. it still is always dps diff or supp diff or someone calling you trash in chat. not "oh we played that bad." "we messed up our ults" the game has never been a team game in practice. I agree that the games can be stomps very often. IT WAS THE SAME IN OW1. Id argue it was worse.
I played in the first ow competitive season. and play now. we always act like people werent raging at jeff kaplan and the game devs for the first 10 seasons of the ganme. now people call it the best time of ow. people just look back on things with nostalgia. Im positive we went back to 6v6 a year later people would be saying 5v5 is better, or coping by saying the devs are terrible and 6v6 is still really good. this imagination yall have that 6v6 would make people love ow and never complain and be happy and love tank and all the problems be solved is pure naivety. ik its not a technical point. But people didnt want to play tank in ow1 it wasn't fun. AND on top of It, it wasn't fun to play into rein sigma, or dva ball, or anything like that while the other team had torb mei and I just want to play gengi or tracer. It sucked. This is better. Playing into dps doom with a winston and ball, just makes me want to uninstall hearing about it. fucking awful
@@jordanstarr2992 There were things that weren't fun about it, sure. But I will stand by my statement that with 6v6 the game felt more team based rather than deathmatch based. The things that made it not fun then (even tho I've always enjoyed playing tank and support) were much as they are today - the devs are too reactive and don't actually attempt to balance the trifecta that they've created. They just use power creep.
Also, you know you can just keep typing in the full statement. These aren't text messages.
I think having both a 5v5 and a 6v6 mode wouldn’t be bad. I think getting rid of things completely in a game is never a thing I’m a fan of
I wanna agree, but it would be so hard to balance the heroes for both modes
If you do that though people are gonna be dumb enough to complain the mode isn't balance when it's not the main mode at all. Also dividing the player base is a problem.
@@lesliejacoby9137 they why do we have open queue and other modes?
@BigMamaBlack I didn't say you can't have other modes but you have to moderate them.
We still have open queue it's just that only trolls play it.
17:33
Yeah, you're right! There isn't a massive falloff between playing tank through the average ranks to the high/top level of play and, the tank role is now just miserable for everyone equally!
I knew this would happen. 5v5 is simply put fundementally broken when a single tank has to do twice the work, no matter how juiced up the tanks are in 5v5 the stress of needing to solo tank is unbearable.
is it really? I think you and the 29 people who liked this are exaggerating a bit
but I don't play tank
@@FR_N-do4xiIt can be really bad especially since as a tank you can run into counters on every role. So the rock paper scissors for tank is like playing rock paper scissors against 5 people and you lose if they have your counter.
@@MannyMulattoPlays before paper was invented, people played Rock paper scissors with only Rock and scissors and I suppose tank is like scissors rn then?
@@FR_N-do4xi More so that tanks have more counters and are more likely to be countered. I cant tell you how man times i had 1 good starting fight as doomfist and the enemy team came back on orisa sombra ana brig. Youre not just being countered by one person its often multiple.
6v6 was a team game. . . 5v5 is great for 5 solo players who don't work together.
Bingo
It’s still a team game. And the majority of people in OW1 didn’t work together either lol and you got punished more for it.
I'd argue that it's even doing that great either
@@joshuacollins9316it is not a team game when you have to rely on your supports as a tank to babysit you and you can not take control of the map as a tank you are quite literally not able to play your role properly. A tank in overwatch is not supposed to be one dimensional sit in front of the team take space you are supposed to have balanced fair support cooldowns to aid you in taking space but thats not a thing anymore since they removed a tank.
I am going to disagree with you, and something that they brought up in the group up podcast, having a player throw in 5v5 is way worse, especially when its the tank. In the metal ranks Doom and Hammond are like 80% of the tank picks to which half the time they aren't even in the fight. I would much rather at least have another tank to rely on.
I mean the math makes this really clear, 1/6 of a team is a smaller percentage than 1/5, but I don't think it is at all reasonable to format the game around players who purposefully lose. Effort should instead be put toward warning and banning those players.
If you're saying that a tank pick is a throw just because of the rank they're playing it at, this is simply incorrect thinking. Those players who play ball and doom in metal ranks and won't switch are almost guaranteed to be more help to your team on those heroes than playing something that you want them to because they lack the skill in the tank you want.
But in the previous game the exact same thing would happen where your tanks would pick other obsolete throw picks in the metal ranks. Its a fundamental problem of having a game where teamplay is so crucial, and 5v5 or 6v6 doesn't really affect how easy it is to throw.
What they said^^^
That’s not just a 5c5 problem.
if you have a doom or ball, play heroes that go with them. it's really that simple
Imo the only reason we are not back to 6v6 is because the devs are going to get clowned since it's really the only thing that still differentiates OW1 from OW2 aside from the battle pass nonsense
I doubt that is possible for the dev team sink any lower.
They’d have to rework all the heroes again lol which would take a while
worth the wait at this point@@joshuacollins9316
Tank was a unpopular role in overwatch 1 so their experience means less. That’s basically what the dev team said and that’s why I quit the game. My role was essentially deleted. Maybe balance your game next time. Support and dps can still have 10+ minute Queue times with 1 less tank slot to fill on each team. That should tell you how the game is doing.
Seriously. Deleted our role from under us.
Having multiple tanks is what made it a team game instead of a constant clusterfuck
Hahahaha I remember when there were no role restrictions. I would be in 6v6:
A = 1 support, 2 Dps, 3 tanks
Or
B = 1 healer and 5 tanks
Those games were fun as hell 😂😂😂😂
Your Overwatch back to gaslighting us.
I wish we could at least have a 6v6 game mode in the arcade or something
With tanks as they are now, I don’t think double shield would be that big an issue.
This 📌
And if it is, just nerf the shields don't take away the other tank
i can always tell when people never touch mystery heroes or open queue.
double shield is as miserable as it’s always been
@@dogs-game-toobecause that worked so well in ow1 😂
ive played open queue for about a week now, cant say I've really played against an enemy team with double shield.@@noahsarkhive4482
the plays you could make with 2 tanks made the game so fun. Problem with 6v6 was the lack of balancing not the format itself
1000% agree.
Couldnt disagree with this video any more. Enjoyed every role FAR more in 6v6 than i do in 5v5
A boomer made a video defending 5v5
Even dps?
@@lesliejacoby9137 Yes even DPS. At least tank and support wasnt so superbuffed.
@psyonicvertebrae1717 I wouldn't say tank is super buffed or the problem in overwatch 2 lol.
@@lesliejacoby9137 All tanks were superbuffed when they switched from OW1 or OW2, check the patch notes.
As for whether it is the problem, no that is not the root cause. The problem is 5v5, the tanks couldn't survive alone without a partner so they had to be superbuffed.
Zarya and Orisa this seasons are the exception. They are triple omega buffed and steamroll most of the meta.
Still, that also has a cause, the support power creep, which is just a big of a problem as 5v5.
My issue with 5v5 isn't the 5v5 is the balance and time to kill being just very fast. It feels like many times running back is more time consuming than before. I think what really needs to happen is increase the ttk so it's a bit longer
The TTK isn't just fast, sometimes it's SLOW! In 5v5 currently you either blow up instantly or live forever. The immune and immortality effects and high healing values can make a pocketed target impossible to kill. But you step out of position while your supports are trying to get damage value, you just die.
@@avatarofdeath Yeah, it's due to the fact that people think by taking away 1 tank, the game should be less team play orientated, but less team arguably just makes the rest of the team even more important with less leeway for alternate playstyles.
@@avatarofdeaththe person got it only half right.
Numbers in general are too high, damage being so high means the healing and support utility had to be broken to match up with the dmg potential. The problem is the moment that utility or player skill don’t line up people just fall over. Look at how quickly tanks get burst down in ow2, it’s no surprise supports are so strong right now.
The reverse is also a problem, imagine you don’t have the dps to take on all that healing and utility? You’ll just get rolled over by the better team. Imo this is why supports currently are the strongest role that can actually carry the game. They have both the stats and utility to carry games that mean without being checked it’s futile to fight against it.
Tank is absolutely being hurt by these inflated damage and healing stats. If numbers across the board (and support utility was nerfed) tank would be in a better spot.
@@MrJayza89 Well said.
freedo is so rude and obnoxious as soon as someone has an different opinion he said we have memory loss rose tinted glasses and ludicrous, are you serious freedo ? We are not allowed a different opinion to you ? You really think you are going to change are opinions ?
Tank diff gets magnified in a 5v5 because there is no second tank to moderate that difference.
The same math also explains why after a teammate dies, 4v5 (25% difference) is more devastating than 5v6 (20% difference), allowing for more snowballing.
The same math also explains why a kill feels that much more impactful in OW2 and why all the roles have more playmaking potential.
Overall, 5v5 seems to allow for a more varied game play at the expense of more stomping, and more pressure on the tank players....
I'm just sad I can't play ball as an off tank like I used to ><
Yes to hero ban!
you mention the complexities of tank synergy as a negative, I've always viewed it as a positive and it truly was in ow1. Tank synergies are arguably more influential/impactful for sure, but overwatch is a fundamentally synergistic shooter which is its strength. The only reason 1 tank was removed in my opinion was to draw players to a "new experience", a thinly veiled way of making a drastic change to cover up an extreme lack of content.
No amount of argument is going to erase the fact that EVERYONE was having more fun in Overwatch 1. I have not seen a single person say Overwatch 2 is way more fun. I've heard people say it's a minor upgrade, I've heard proponents of 5v5 say it's more balanced, I have not heard even ONE person say 5v5 is more FUN.
6v6 was way more fun, tank synergies was the essence of Overwatch.
yes it was more chaotic but the fight isnt over if 1 player dies.
I think they could have balanced it.
6v6 was awful people didnt want to play the game. especially not tank. playing into sigma rein with cheesy dps, or ball dva comps were horrible. more ults more chaos. people didnt want to play tank. you guys are just being nostalgie rose tinted glasses. gamers always do this even though they bitched about the game nonstop and always have and always will and you are being a dumb human sheep but its psychology. no ones ever said, at the very least thats never been close to the consensus. "wow overwatch is fun and balanced" and its not because the game has never been fun or decently balanced its that no one can be happy and aways has something to complain about and thats life. ofc people will infantilise and blame devs and say thats why game has never been good. so ofc in some imagined reality, the game has been good but never reality.
to save overwatch we need a player revolt. bring back the 6v6 patch right before OW2 release. hit the reset.
Exactly, that was the point of the Overwatch and we loved it.
Everyone talks about double shield, the main reason for double shield was orisa with her shield and sigma. The only new shield is rammatra which wouldn’t be a powerful shield in the comp because it disappears after a few seconds. The main reason why tanks want a second tank is because in OW2 you’re just a target for every single ability with no body to soak up powerful cooldowns for you
The same stuff happend in 6v6, but worst because there was more cc in the game, playing rein was, cass stun, rock, discord, ball boop, brig stun, you die
Peole looking at 6v6 like if didnt have a way worst cc issue that was needed to stop 2 tanks
People will figure out other double shield meta, like with Reinhardt or Zarya, and FUTURE TANK HEROES
@diegocorvalan5435 ok but the difference now is that there isn't as much cc for tanks so that problem wouldn't exist and even in ow 1 you had another tank to protect you if too much damage was coming at in this If you get cc dumped then your done unless a support saves you 6v6 just gave the tanks more freedom the only thing that would need to be changed would be the shield tanks
@@diegocorvalan5435 Then how would 6v6 look like with all the cc changes from 5v5?
@@immortalmadman4822 colosally worse, because tanks would be even harder to stop
Most tank players will disagree here. If your team does not have a competent support lineup to defend themselves and keep the tank alive then its not going to be fair. As a tank, if you DPS don't support you then you are done, often time you also wont be getting as much healing to survive a well coordinated push from the enemy tank +dps. Plus, a tank is the first focus for the entire opposition, imagine being shot by 5 different 'e' abilities every 10s
Bruh If I'm not being healed frequently my health bar gets deleted
That's true, supports make a big difference in the tea comparison, even if you as a tank are way batter than the enemy tank, sometimes even the support pick on your team can throw that game. Just yesterday I was mowing the other tank, but then they swaped to Ana while I was on Moira mercy, it was gg even tho I switched to try and adjust
If you feel like that you probably have a "My W key is stuck and I can't stop pressing it" problem. Cover exists. When I play as healer, there's nothing more annoying that those tanks that literally just stand there feeding the enemy DPS ult while I literally cannot stop healing them for a single second because they would die instantly. If you're forcing your support to spend 100% of their time healing you, you're playing tank wrong.
@@_korbo_ I'm not talking about healing numbers, it's more of a utility problem, some supports are just useless in this format of the game. This gets even worse when counterwatch is the name of the game.
Yes. I agree to this. I like to tank, but it feels exactly like I am the one being hosed by the opposition while trying to take space and not being backed up by DPS. When we lose, all I see is "tank diff", when the "diff" is DPS not DPSing (for want of a better word). So many matches could be better if the team I was on actually shot at the opposing tank like what is being done to me. It does my head it.
The biggest issue with 6v6 was double shield, with the lack of shields and changes to shields such as Ram's being a cooldown, its solves that problem already. We dont have to worry about making tanks indestructible in 6v6 because they have another tank to help support them and supplement some of that tankiness. Plus, more things to shoot= more engaging. You always feel like you have something to do in 6v6
I’d say double sheild and cc were the biggest issues because it was so common back then to get chain ccd
Double shield didn’t even apply to the majority of the player base another high sr problem
@@nufcjoker9057and I'm pretty sure all the shield breaks weren't meta but I think a solution was to make shields take more DMG and the problem was heighten by people's need to win a all costs like your telling that the owl couldn't have a gentleman's agreed not to use goats or double shield at all or maybe they could use it once per set
Getting chained CC'ed was a skill issue that no one ever talks about. There were literally counters to everything in 6v6.
I'd say about CCs it could have simply been solved by "if you're hit by a CC, any additional CCs have reduced effect for the next 3-5 seconds" so then, oh you got hacked, that sucks but you can't really be slept or stunned for the rest of the duration and for a few seconds afterwards. That way CC comps don't really work as you would have to layer them and not just unleash all of then and nuke a tank.
A hot issue not being talked about is how CC had its merits for holding certain characters in check. Such as: Wrecking Ball and Sombra. An even semi-decent Ball player can pretty easily go deathless all game because there just isn't enough CC now to stop him from hit and running. Same applies for Sombra, you either 1 shot her, hack her, or hinder her. Other than that any Sombra with good reaction time just gets out of jail for free.
Possible hot take as a Genji main, but McCree should have flashbang back. It needed an actual follow up and wasn't a guaranteed bodyshot worth of damage and flashbang headshotting Tracers was a skill shot compared to hinder now. Also Brig just feels wrong not having stun on Bash and I despise Brig as a Genji, Tracer, and Winston player (yeah I like Dive, sue me) but also was fun as Rein blocking Flash with shield
IMO, 6v6 was and is more fun. I said it when OW2 released, they should’ve made a 6v6 gamemode alongside 5v5, separate queue pools for both. (Comp, QP, etc)
Probably not enough players for healthy que times for both.
Also impossible to balance nearly as good as picking one format. A lose lose eventually.
I found no difference.
@raffyk7541 that's complete bs
Calling it rose-tinted glasses is a bit silly. I play OW1 most of its life, then right before it shut down I played it again for about a week. Right after OW2 went up I played that as a tank main and immediately did not like it as much in a 5v5 format. It isn't just some OW1 nostalgia considering I got to play them back-to-back.
6v6 better
More friends =less suffering
It actually makes tanks better
@@xlbthedemigod5662because that's how thing should be, a main tank and an off-tank
Only two, no more......no less
@@therebelfrogy9287 I got a lot better at the game being the only tank in all honesty. Could never really get tank out of gold like that. Went three straight seasons of Diamond 1 on tank. That alone made me prefer 5v5. Having to perfectly sync up with someone else was annoying, cool when it worked, but too easy to place blame over self reflection for me.
the chances of having 2 bad tanks on a team are lower than the chances of having 1 bad tank
The chances of being a bad tank are lower when there is another tank buddy on your side to share responsibilities
They could solve double shield by nerfing shields whenever there are 2 shield tanks in a team and giving full shields when there is only one to encourage tank and off tank metas... Deleting a tank was a lazy getaway that is bitting them in the ass
@@aerostrafe1075 I dont want to make you feel bad but, everyone who played OW1 got a rank increase going into OW2.
It has nothing to do with you getting better, its more like, New players come into OW2, they dont know as much as you and thats why you climb.
Add to that, that climbing in OW2 is way easier than in OW1 and you get boosted to diamond.
I mean take me as an example, i was Diamond 3400 in OW1 on DPS and now in OW2 after not playing actively and acknowleding that im not as good as high elo players im still GM2 on DPS? No fucking way, thats equal to 4400 DPS in OW1, im not shit but i am not a OWL Player on DPS.
I dont see how i "Improved" 1000 SR going from OW1 -> OW2.
Also Tank synergies in gold never mattered, you could literally win by just being good on Zarya, i know this because i played with my friends who were gold (I was 3600 Tank at the time) and maybe its smurfing, but i tried to play hereos i dont usually play a lot, even then as Zarya i basically 1v6.
Call me an asshole, but you climbing has little to do with you getting better, im sorry.
Playing tank in 5v5 is far worse experience than in 6v6.
The problem of not enough tank players could've likely been remedied by adding more interesting tanks
More Interesting Tanks? Wrecking Ball with his Gigabillion techs? Zarya High Damage Potential? Korean gamer girl DVA? And now Doom and Ramattra? The problem isn't that the problem is the fact the FPS audiences in general love Damage characters or any characters centered around DPSing.
And if we're going down that lane, as a company why put all your eggs aka money and resources to make "more interesting tanks" in a basket that has a very small player base? That's why OW1 has released so many DPS, because again, FPS audiences, in general, tend to go for Damage/DPS characters.
@@Skycube100 ow1 originally started with only 5 tanks and ended with 8 split between 2 people and further split between main and off tank. The stagnation and lack of variety had a role in its downfall. Now in ow2 with only one tank there's alot more weight placed on them which can easily deter players from the role
and just flat out adding more heroes would benefit the game and retain and pique new interest in it
Honestly though there wasn't enough PLAYERS in general; ow1 was abandoned for 3 years and the player base just offed its-self while everyone else was just trapped in a shit eccho or cheater/hacker infested nightmare
@@Skycube100 Tbh I think the reason that the Dps role is the most played role is a couple reasons, 1 they have by far the most hero's to choose from so more players will find a character in that role that they enjoy and 2, the Dps role is the least stressful role; while tank is just straight up miserable, Dps can just go about it at their own pace without really having to worry (I know there's more depth to it than that but I can't explain all that) and 3, What you said etc...
Wouldn’t solve the boring counterpick gameplay, it would just make it slightly more bearable
This game needs 6 v 6, 2 tanks again.
"You think you do, but you don't" - Freedo
there are in fact a lot of good arguments for both, but at the end of it, i still liked ow1 more, and i think a lot of people did
Give me some positives about overwatch 2 the only negative about overwatch 1 is that the game wasnt balanced and thats not the games fault its the balance teams fault
Imagine having 1849 likes vs 2186 Dislikes. That sounds like getting ratiod.
6v6 = having fun and synergising with your team with multiple different hero combinations
5v5 = counter picking and relying on 1 tank, if they are bad or refuse to counter pick you automatically lose
wrong
right
wrong@@Xanthopathy
@@wazzuper11 nah for the most part they're right. at least in the metal ranks most of the time. higher elo maybe not, but the game will be an uphill battle.
@@williamhenderson1739the rock paper scissors get worse the higher you go, can’t pick any tank without the enemy immediately swapping unless they have ult
Nah this is some pure cope. 6v6 is better in every capacity for those exact reasons you present. There was MORE options for tanks to flair their skill and diverse playstyles. As a tank player I hate OW2 specifically because of 5v5, and the fact that it simply comes down to who has the better immortality supports behind them, and plays the counterpick game better. It's so fucking boring no wonder nobody wants to play tank. And for new players, I'm sure it's a very pleasant experience getting the "tank diff" message literally every single game - because the entire role balances on their shoulders alone with no margins for figuring out their own playstyle. If you don't play the "correct" meta defined way, you just get rolled in an instant.
And because a tank got removed, Blizz had to overcompensate by buffing that remaining tank, and shifting the sustain further over on the supports who now have shit abilities like Suzu, Life Grip, Pylon, aoe healing en masse, and what not. So even if you do take matters into your own hands and try to find those 1v1's, you can shoot at them but you can't kill jack shit because everything in this game now has an immo ability or a get-out-of-jail-free card on a low cooldown. That is not fun. That is not good gameplay. That does not give more agency. It gaslights players into thinking they have agency, but they don't. And the illusion only lasts for a short while, until people realize "hey it doesn't matter that I avoid the tank and try to be a difference maker my own way, because I can't do shit on my own without seeing the rest of my team getting rolled in the meantime". Overwatch has never seen more criticism of matchmaking and snowball fights than it does in OW2. Guess why: 5v5.
5v5 makes everything bad about 6v6 10x worse.
A fundamentally disagree with the entire notion of 5v5 and the idea should have never became a realitly.
6v6 > 5v5
DPS doom > Tank doom
Volskaya > Colosseo
OW1 > OW2
Freedo, dont put the sticky bombs directly on the sleeping tracer because the attach damage will wake her up. Put them right next to her instead.
Hes not a good player lol, tbh idk why hes even speaking on this topic when hes clearly a very bad player with no actual knowledge on the game
@@WorldKeepsSpinninIdk if u watched the video, but a lot of things he said were true. That + he played for YEARS and the fact that he’s GM, I wouldn’t say he have no actual knowledge on the game lol.
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin I wouldn't say he's bad either. I think it's easy to assume in the clip that tracer might not have recall or he may have forgotten in the heat of the moment.
@@strixnumbezzedz7837 he's masters
@@gidkid100hes not a bad player i disagree with his opinion though
I use to love playing tank in OW1 in most cases it was more fun than playing DPS. Now it’s less fun and less rewarding. It made it more interesting with 2 tanks.
The longer into this video it gets it seems like you had a different experience than us. I dont remember matches in my elo being “unplayable” that feels more like this game when my opponent has an orisa and we have a ball.
I fucking do. It was either double shields or nothing. You had no hope of getting anywhere without them.
And DPS players rather than try to break trough shields with rat or pharah wanted to hitscan duo and unload everything to shields. And then they had the balls to blame their supports or tanks and wonder why nothing died.
That's the reason why I dropped comp in 2019. I don't even where this "in 6v6, tanks couldn't have impact"-comes from, because majority of the time I was at the (nonexistent) mercy of my Dps, hoping they'd understand that blasting 999 bullets at double shields won't work.
And before you ask "why didn't you just take dva and ball and just past the shields?" Because 90% it just resulted in dps just staying where they were, putting bullets on shields. While other teams dps could chase me down and kill me without an issue.
Oh, and they ofc blamed me for "abandoning the team". Nevermind THEY abandoned me in the character selection screen already.
@@Ruosteinenknightthat feeling of hopelessness comes way more often in ow2 when things don’t die or tank gets countered.
@@Ruosteinenknightyeah buddy but ninety percent of the time in ladder that wasn't the experience, and in ow2 if you have one bad player you lose instantly, much less an off meta pick.
@@Ruosteinenknight Double shield is a balancing issue, they could have easily fixed that.
Imo since it's 5v5 now I think Rein deserves his 2000hp barrier back, especially with Mauga. I've been silent about this but as a Rein main I've been dealing with a glass shield for 5 agonizing yrs. 💀@@Rivler20
Just remember guys when ow was 6v6 it was one of if not the best fps game of its time AND game of the year, when overwatch 2 came and become 5v5 its the worst steam game ever in numbers and second worst in dislike ratio, you decide which is worse
So it's okay that tank players are quitting tanking and changing roles because of how good our heroes were early in the game? You admit that tanking is miserable and that tanks are expected to do everything and blamed immediately for losses, but since there is more of everyone else, that doesn't need to change?
edit: upon reading further comments, I now see that this is actually what the community thinks. Good thing it's not leading to us all doing different stuff and you totally aren't going to lose more people out of the tank playerbase by telling them that their opinion doesn't matter.
I feel you brotherman, tank is some ass right now. Also don't be surprised that Freedo doesn't understand, he's a support player, of course he likes 5v5
I think with proper changes 6v6 could be great to have again.
What changes do you propose? It's easy to say it would be great without giving examples of changes. I've been playing since OW1 released and I think 5v5 is better overall. Two tanks is too much defense, especially if you are playing two main tanks. Plus with 6 players on each team it's just more clutter (more ults, more cc, more visual effects, etc).
I think the balance is heading in the right direction (especially after the recentt support nerfs that came out after this video was released).
@@Chase_Crawford tanks that were causing problems like orisa could have been reworked or, since everyone played off and main tank, split the tanks into 2 categories or roles. some CC being removed like brig's bash or mei's hard freeze would have helped greatly
@@Phar_aoh1 yeah I agree that splitting tanks into main and off roles could have worked
Nah bro just give me dps Doom again.
That part
Nah bro dont. Big black man chasing me was too real and I don't wanna relive those moments
Bring back Doom dps. Fak the doom tank.
EXACTLY 👌👀
@@therebelfrogy9287 and in ow2 a Big 400 hp black man is chasing you. How is that better?
I'm pretty sure the dps queue time issue was due to everyone and their mother playing dps, which was also why role queue was needed. Was anytime else tired of being queued up with 5 other dps that confidently couldn't play any other role?
Every time things went bad, the solution was that we needed more DPS
"The playability was easily hijacked by just one player messing up the team comp."
...What? How is that a pro-5v5 argument? In 5v5, if your one and only tank messes up, you're done. At least the other tank could pick up the slack in 6v6. Also, weird off-meta comps were not a big deal, whereas not partaking in this 5v5 rock-paper-scissors will most certainly guarantee a loss.
6v6 was just better, but tanks complained about that too, so I don’t know
I was a tank main for ages. Even with the frustrations that come with a game like this, I NEVER wanted to move away from 6v6. I was sad watching the last of the Flats/Emmong duos... I miss the synergy of 6v6, which is I why I used to OW over other shooters. I tried not to be a negative nancy and embrace 5v5, but it doesn't feel as rewarding. I liked needing teamwork! I know I can't be the only one!
@@DatCreoleBoy I’m a support that started playing tank in iv2, and it’s misery
Honestly the reason i havent been play as much recently is because playing tank in ow2 is feeling more and more like playing main tank back in 1 without a proper off tank. One small missteps and you're blown up to oblivion. Theres less cc now obviously, but its still that unrewarding playstyle of wait for their team to blow all their cds or else you instantly die, and your playmaking potential feels like its just in the hands of waiting for your supports to pop off. There is still merit to the more cautious, make the perfect play at the perfect time style of tanking, but its just so punishing and the constant shouldering of the blame just makes it exhausting to play
20:30 maybe it's just the metal ranks experience, but I can tell you for sure that I feel it WAY more when one player isn't pulling their weight in my games now than I did in 6v6. You've said yourself even from before the public release of OW2 that one of the benefits of 5v5 is the individual skill expression. I knew then just as well as I know now that it's a double-edged sword.
In my games in gold and plat, when the other dps, or one of the supports is off their game, the whole team feels it way more. Heaven forbid there's a tank diff, then all is immediately lost.
It's much easier to know who to blame for losing our games. Yay. Does that help me win more games? Not really. Does that help my experience game to game? Idk. There will always be toxicity, especially at my rank but it seems more directed now.
Since your individual impact is felt more in 5v5, it stands to reason that a lack of impact is equally noticable and it feels like people get called out individually a lot more.
Honestly, it feels like 5v5 just comes down to either the best or the worst player in the lobby. If the best player isn't able to hard-carry, then you just hope that your worst player is just a *little* better than the enemy's worst player. At least in 6v6 you could sometimes make up the difference if your worst player happens to play tank, it doesn't feel like anything can fill a tank gap in 5v5.
Notice how everyone who thinks 5v5 is better is a dps or support main. Some people just don't want tanks to be able to play the game.
DAMN RIGHT WE DO! I miss team fights and actually working together rather then just waiting for someone to get a cheeky pick.
Why don't you get a kill? Can't you shoot?
@@LeicaFleury I’m a support player.. weird troll comment tho
@@Printzor as a support player in masters the only way to climb out is to start doing damage. If you look at high level gameplay, the Baptiste or Ana has a lot more damage than what you are most likely doing. Now if you play Mercy or something I am sorry.
"team fights and actually working together" - that happened 1 out of 5 games
But yeah your original comment is right, that's why I quit the game. It just never felt the same after OW2, no team play or coordination, nobody in VC now, people don't understand how the game works (or used to work idk?).
I think the only problem people had was shooting at shields literally the whole match. Nowadays Orisa doesn't have a shield.
It's not only shields, but shooting at tanks, every tank has a CD rotation during which they are safe and at the end of which there's an opportunity to punish them (orisa lance + fortify, sigma shield + grasp, zarya bubbles, rein huge shield etc.) With two tanks this safe period is long enough so that both tank can't rotate they CDs and nothing dies. That's the 6v6 experience : nothing dies until everybody gets their Q and then everybody presses Q at the same time and the team that pressed Q slightly better than the other team wins the fight. It was horrible
So if orisa shield is gone because of the rework what happens when they release another tank with a shield or are we never allowed to have a shield tank
@@alfred9805 But that isnt meaningfully different then what we have now. Sure, there's no shields, but nothing dies because healing is so oppresively overtuned and they all have abilities which you are forced to play around, exactly the same as shield. There's no double shield but there might as well be when the enemy's hp is always topped up and if they ever get low it doesn't matter because the get out of jail free cooldowns on the other team
@@lemonke2964 Hell, the current oppressive healing is even worse than double shield since the limit of the team's hp is now, mostly, limitless...especially with all the jacked up healing we have.
I would have loved to hear your thoughts in this podcast. I think 6v6 should come back, but I wouldn't delete 5v5. Both sides deserve to play the way they prefer.
Aka split the player base that make que times longer great idea
@@ken7007 Splitting 1 minute into 2 seems okay to me, waiting 15 min to maybe get a game like in OW1 is horrendous. Best of both worlds now that we have F2P and Steam playerbase
@@aliaddas7938 1min more?
Y'all really underestimate cause & effect
So make 5v5 unplayable because everyone would go back to 6v6 bc it's better
if 6v6 came back then maybe ill actually reinstall the game again. hog main here :(
What makes tank so bad is every sleep,boop,stun in the game is aimed at the tank, it is fucking miserable. As a whole the 5v5 just feels like a fucking team deathmatch.
Something you touched on regarding tanks that I want to expand on. I'm a gold/plat tank player. 100% average. Touched diamond one time way back in Season 3 of Overwatch 1, so I've been here for a while.
The biggest problem with 6v6 vs 5v5 for me is that main tanks were not allowed to be tanks due to how much utility off-tanks provided. Does Zarya rely on another teammate in order to do her job? Sure, she needs a warm body to walk in and take damage for her, but she can also do that herself. Do Roadhog or Dva REQUIRE assistance to do what they need to do? Not really. Did Winston need assistance to do his job as a tank? Yes, or he would just dive in and die. Without some other defensive ability, Winston just didn't work. Same goes for Reinhardt. While everyone wanted a Reinhardt, not everyone wanted to give him a Lucio so he could actually play the game, or play Zarya to give him extra defense. Reinhardt is a character that does great when enabled but falls hard alone. Roadhog, or Zarya? Well they can do whatever they want, and I think that's what some of the current OW2 tank players are disappointed by. Of course someone who played Zarya or Hog in OW1 would be a bit more frustrated when losing their main tank. They were the ones taking all the aggro, now they have to deal with it.
It also explains why there weren't many tank players in general. "Oh boy I can't wait to play as a character that requires another person in order to function" doesn't exactly sell a role well. It's why even when you got tanks in your lobbies they'd just play two off-tanks half the time. At least those characters have individual agency, even if they don't sync up together well.
I don't think balance is quite there yet for tanks in 5v5, Hog and Ball are obvious, but Reinhardt still needs some love so he's less dependent on his team to do his job too. He shouldn't have to rely on a speed boost or stats getting poured into him in order to close the gap when every single tank released after Overwatch 1 launched has had some form of defensive ability to take care of this problem for them. (excluding Sigma but he's not supposed to close gaps.)
Point being, the hero fantasy of tanks in Overwatch 1 was that you make space and protect your team, but in actuality it felt like your team protected you in order for you to even exist. Less agency compared to other roles just led to people either moving to said other roles, or just switching to an off-tank that played more like a DPS.
Incredibly well said. Thanks
As an 18 yr old who plays quite casually for maybe 2 or 3 hours every other day I can confirm that 6v6 was better for tank gameplay. It’s simply too stressful and not fun anymore. Also 6v6 put supports in check and prevented them from running every match. The only role that 5v5 benefited was dps, they are the main people I see complaining abt 6v6 while us tanks suffer through 5v5.
Your tanking for your whole team, your are the bullet taker, you are the ability eater YOU are the biggest most powerful role on the field... it should feel stressful and difficult...thats what it means to be a tank you should not be queing for tank wanting it to feel like your playing support or dps...
@@silis4645Exactly, these rookies dont know any better. Let alone how to play the game smh
@@silis4645yeah but when it comes down to rock paper scissoring with the other tank to win the game that’s not skill. that’s just counter picking to win the game
@@silis4645Tanks deserve to have fun too, and part of having fun is leaving room for error. Tanks now simply don’t have that room anymore.
@@silis4645not rewarding whatsoever for tank players who wanna play a certain tank just to be counter picked in QP and forced to swap bc they have no choice. not saying you can’t win but it’s way harder to do so.
Thank you for arguing for 6v6 Freedo
I will definitely come back if there is a 6v6, but 5v5 literally feels like a different game.
a different game, in a bad way
@@its_lucky2526 100%
I think this is a difference in opinion over the word "fun." This video mentions that the 6v6 camp was skewed by the top 500 environment where tanks tried to synergize, but this video is also skewed by always buying the new heroes and having dozens of hours to practice several characters. Casual players, that probably make up the majority of players, *don't want to do homework to play video games after work.*
Most just want to play the character the think is fun and have a decent chance of winning. If none of your top 3 characters in a role are viable because the balance or DLC heroes hard-counter them, then you have to choose between feeling crappy because you're getting shutdown, feeling crappy because you suck at the character that counters what they're playing, or feeling crappy because you got forced off what you *wanted* to play just for a shot at winning. Having "fun" for those players is hoping that the characters you like to play (in any role) just happen to fit the meta on any given day.
Aside from the lack of consistent fun, there's also he moral issue of paywalling heroes and moving the game towards counter-swapping being mandatory. That basically guarantees there will be moments where paying players will have definite advantages - even if it's only in quickplay. I don't know if 6v6 necessarily fixes that, but the current game balance was not fun or an improvement on 6v6 for me personally.
As a tank main, please bring 6v6 back. Playing tank is bloody miserable and makes you NOT want to play the game.
Havent watched the Video yet, all i can say is i played OW1 for 4k+ Hours, had fun even in graveyard Season and overall the game felt more fun with its Big Teamfights, more synergies and less Opressive 1 Shots.
OW2 i have played for like 300 Hours the last year (100 of them in S1) it just doesnt hit the same as OW1, it feels soulless, fights feel like a deathmatch where everyone does what they want and nobody even tries to cooperate or talk to each other.
Things like
- Solo Tanking feeling horrible
- 1 Shots getting more oppressive because of less protection
- Supports having to be made OP to stand a chance (and because of it, being just better DPS in disguise, i mean Kiriko and Illari can basically 1v1 every DPS with relative ease)
- Off-Tanks feeling out of place in 5v5
- Fights boiling down to "Who gets the first kill" or "Which Tank can kill the backline faster" which dumbs down the game a lot
etc.
6v6 had problems, but they were fixable.
2x Shield was fixable by either reworking Orisa (like they did for OW2 and they didnt even try to release her for 6v6), or by nerfing Sigmas Grasp and Orisas Fortify so that you could dive them.
The Qtimes were fixable by making the game alive, think about it, the Qtimes only went bad because
1. The Game got no Content
2. The game got no patches and was stuck on 2x Shield meta
3. The game was not F2P 4 years after release
4. People quit OW1 waiting for OW2
All these aspects led to the Qtimes going shit and i think it could have been avoided.
I wont be playing much OW2 as long as 6v6 and SR Ranked System isnt back, its just an inferior version of OW1, released to make quick money with BP and Shop Skins.
Sad what they have done to my favourite game.
This is all well and good, but even in the bleakest moments in OW1, things were never as bad as they are in OW2.
Even with brig 1.0?
@@VambraceMusic Unquestionably.
You're not a tracer player then
@@VambraceMusic There were 20+ seasons of OW1, I mained almost every character at one point. When Tracer was countered, I just picked someone else instead of meat-grindering myself into Brig and complaining.
When you need to swap your hero because it's literally unplayable then how is that not worse than ow2
they should just add it as a different gamemode for those who wanna do 6v6 instead of 5v5
"if one of your tank players doesn't play well in 6v6 you lose more than in 5v5" sooooo my hog in numbani wasn't a throw pick which made us unable to play at all but actually was the one thing that allowed us to play respawn simulator 2
So sad to see just how out of touch YourOW has become with the playerbase. 5v5, objectively, is worse for the game than 6v6.
I’m sorry but half the points you made in this video are straight up incorrect and the other half are highlighting issues with overwatch 1 until you realize they are even worse in Overwatch 2
After 2 weeks of trying out tank as a newbie and I hate it. I'm going back to support, less stressful, more impact.
exactly why 5v5 is a disaster. it fails miserably to attract new players to the role and the old tank players left over from OW1 are leaving or already left the game.
From the channel that brought you great hits like, "Overwatch 2 has the best monitization" and "No it's wonderful that new heroes are behind a paywall now you guys are just poors".
the reason why counterpicking for tank is at an all-time high is that there isn't any way to compensate for your counters
if you're getting dove as ana, your other support can go brig
if you need to deal with pharah as junkrat, your other dps can go widow (as long as she doesn't have a mercy)
if you're getting countered by orisa as reinhardt, you can um, uh, well you see, uh, die I guess idk.
OW 1 wasn't like this because you had that other tank to compensate for that (dva could help winston/ball vs hog by eating damage. Zarya could help rein if he's getting pressured too hard at close range by reaper etc).
Tldr: Removing a tank makes it so that you don't have anything to compensate for your counters, which is something the other roles don't suffer from.
Nah bro, 6v6 was so much better. I quit playing tank entirely coz you only play counter not the hero you want, if the enemy is an Orisa main you are doomed, one tank sucks. I even believe elo hell is real now coz of one tank, 5matches good tank, the next 5 u get a bad tank and get rolled so bad. I rarely get close games nowadays. DPS sucks coz they can't kill anything. I play only support nowadays
Freedo being clueless again. Nobody surprised... Again
Overwatch Boomers?
Is that what we are calling the player base at it’s peak?
As a dps player from 2016. 5v5 sucks ass.
People are forgetting how many problems in OW1 revolved around tanks. Role queue was implemented because of tanks. There weren't enough players and often support players or dps players had to switch to the tank role and you'd end up with 1 tank, 1 support and 4 dps or 1 tank, 2 support and 3 dps. Even then Blizzard was sticking to their guns and refusing to implement role queue until goats became a thing and suddenly all the dps players felt forced to play tank if they didn't want to lose. Everyone was miserable. No one was happy. Goats existed as a meta long enough for even the metal ranks to start getting the very basics of it.
After role queue, tanks were still a problem! Most tank players (the few that there were in the player pool) wanted to play off-tank, not main tank. If they were stubborn your team would end up with two off-tanks. It was not fun trying to attack gibraltar with a dva and a hog as your tanks. So many tank players were just players from other roles looking for a faster queue time, refusing to play anything other than hog or dva. Even when you did manage to get two tanks that synergised, there is no guarantee that your tanks even understood what to do. Especially in the lower ranks, where you have a majority of the player base. It didn't matter that you ran winston/dva on gibraltar when your dva was always off on a solo mission leaving your winston to get blown up when he dove in. It didn't matter that you were running double bubble when no one was in voice chat and the zarya kept bubbling at the wrong time. And nothing felt worse than trying to play the best tank for your team comp and map while your other tank player was off on a solo feeding mission and the enemy tanks were actually working together.
Going back to 6v6 is not the answer.
I don't even play overwatch but I can tell you right away you're not convincing anyone with that "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude.
I think the idea we need to consider is that we wouldn’t be reverting to 6v6, but FORWARD to 6v6. I think there is argument to be made, now that I’ve watched the video, that with what we have now and some minor tweaks (maybe putting shield tanks in a separate category so only one can be chosen), 6v6 sounds healthier for everyone. The stomp of 5v5 is enough of a reason not to play regularly. I played the heck out of OW1, but can only take so much of OW2 as it is even more frustrating. I didn’t know the arguments for 6v6 before this video, just heard the call for it, but nearly every point Freedo made I disagreed with.
6v6 really would be a better game, it's kinda obvious to see now that 5v5 has played out. Tanks are so unfun it hurts, support is so op they control the game, and dps are basically playing deathmatch and hoping their supports do the right thing at the right time
As a main tank player SINCE OVERWATCH 1 SEASON 2 I’ll attest that 5v5 is less miserable overall than 6v6. I like the agency of picking a tank and not having to worry about my off tank player not trying to synergize whatsoever. Now I can pick my a tank and have the rest of my team not try to synergize whatsoever. At least in 5v5 I have the agency to pop off for like 2-3 fights before the enemy team counters me. In 6v6 it’s way harder to pop off in a situation where there’s no team synergy. Overwatch 1 was no tank synergy no win overwatch 2 is no team synergy? You can still possibly pop off and carry. It’s not easy but it’s not impossible like it was in 6v6
Do you play in Bronze? Where can any Tank in this game pop off without 6v6-level coordination lmao
@@vopcracker3193 I was plat season 2 overwatch one (probably before you ever touched the game) and have been casually sitting in gold/silver ever since. If you read/understood my comment you would know that tank synergies just don’t happen in low level play 6v6 and in 5v5 there’s more space in the game to pop off compared to playing 6v6 where your team most likely doesn’t have a good tank combo. If you have enough iq and/or mechanics it is possible to pop off in 5v5
@@vopcracker3193 your idea of “6v6 level coordination” was non existent in 6v6 unless ur gm. You need one less kill in 5v5 to end a team fight and there’s one less tank stunning/shooting at you so yes in 5v5 it’s easier to pop off without synergy compared to 6v6 where there’s still no synergy PLUS there’s another tank shooting at you AND on top of that the other team might have a good tank combo while ur stuck playing rein/hog
@@johnseidle655 OK man 😂 since you want to measure dicks: I've been playing Overwatch since it's release around 2013. Consistently gold/silver as well; I know all about how coordination works in this game I can assure you.
You cannot pop off in this game like DPS and Supports can. Tank synergies absolutely happened in low level play; the whole point of two tanks was to have a strong frontline that can cover weaknesses and punish bad positioning. In low-elo, these were much less effective but they didn't stop existing just becuase your team was shit. Compared to now however, it was a hell of a lot more fair. Tanks were to be respected not simply fed resources to buy time for cooldown management.
To be honest, Tanks didn't even NEED to pop off either to be fun in OW1; The role was simply better defined and holding the frontline felt impactful instead of an absolute chore with no real payoff. Mechanics mean nothing when any idiot can swap Orisa, spam Fortify and Spear and get enough value for Supports and DPS by stalling without any actual skill at all.
"the game is more fun in all aspects, including tanking"
literal clown statement. absolutely in denial of reality and the voices of so many people who don't enjoy tanking as much or have stopped tanking completely.
6v6 was better and the devs can't even play their own game without throwing and griefing their team.
They're out of touch saying dumb shit online trashing people who want 6v6 back just like they talked shit on the guy who asked for classic wow like "you think you want that but you don't."
Guess what, people got classic and love it.
Blizz was wrong then and they're wrong now.
Nothing new, Blizzard is dead and nobody is surprised.
BRING BACK 6V6. even if its an arcade mode. that will be all i play