Caller: "Don't Argue For Abortion Using Forced Organ Donation" | The Atheist Experience: Throwback
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The fact that a corpse's bodily autonomy cannot be violated to save a life, but a woman's can says all you need to know
Yup, none of this is about saving lives or life at all, it's about controlling women and remove their most basic human right, the right to their own person.
Project 2025 goes into what comes next and it's not like Republicans haven't already repeated that in public.
@@Beacon80 because the corpse didn’t endanger the life to begin with.
Are you stupid on purpose @@Thunderbolt-9
@@Thunderbolt-9Doesn't the woman's life matter?
@@Thunderbolt-9A pregnant woman didn't endanger a life, either.
There is something so disturbing listening to a man say that women should go to jail for exercising autonomy.
Yeah?
How about when a woman does it?
Because I've seen that.
@@antediluvianatheist5262 I would say, when a woman argues that way, it is equally as, or even more disturbing...
but they are disturbing in different ways.
also: there is no need for whataboutism...
OP did not state that it would not be disturbing when a woman did that.
@@antediluvianatheist5262example?
@@jens2old2care if women want to keep their autonomy then they need to exercise their right to it less
@@Gumpmachine1 if women choose not to have sex with men, are you going to argue for forced impregnation too?
It's interesting that the caller only considers physical harm
and brushes away the psychological harm of forcing a rap victim to give birth.
I think you mean psychological harm. As physical and physiological are the same thing.
I'm also pretty sure they meant RnB as every rap victim I know wanted their kids 😂😂
And completely ignores the potential suffering of the child as well. I dont think that being a living reminder of a horrific assault is good for ones mental health after all.
@@marcusreading3783 My brother was put in care at 4 because he was the product of r*pe. His bio mom tried keeping him, but whenever she saw him, all she could see was her rapist bearing down on her. It fucked him up for years. Glad we adopted him though as hes doing much better now he knows he's loved and wanted.
@@Not_An_EVyt has a problem with me using the full word.
As a woman, I am so glad I had my uterus removed at age 27. No babies will EVER come out of my body for a society that treats women like disposable breeding cattle.
You're going to geniunly regret that. Please come back and comment at 38.
@@TheMegaelectronic So Woman can’t live fulfilling lives if they can’t get pregnant?
@@TheMegaelectronic You have no fucking idea if she will or won't so don't make statements about other people who you don't even know. It's just pathetic.
I have two kids, which is great and to be honest if I didn't have those kids I wouldn't exist today but that's ME, not someone else.
Many women in society these days don’t have much use for anything else
@@elem-sike4161what more do you expect from someone who thinks women shouldn't have the right to their own bodies?
It's ok to kill a 5 year old swinging a sword around, even without intent just because the 5 year old could hurt you? This guy... I don't even know what think.
Exactly. In that analogy, any fetus carries the risk of harm just the way a 5 year old swinging a sword does.
Like...holy shit...what kind of back-assward rationalizations will anti-choice advocates not use?!
Well in the case of an unwanted pregnancy there is garunteed harm@crystalw8050
Surely this is just self defence? It's a standard lawful defence, you're allowed to protect yourself...
Shannon Q has demolished every caller on this topic. I love her passion.
How did she demolish her I agree with her on a lot of things but legal abortion without good reason is murder if you decide to have sex you know the consequences of your actions you are 100 percent responsible for for that child’s life
@@unseenhero7498 why is abortion murder when it comes to consensual sex but ok when it comes to rape? if its murder then its murder regardless of the circumstances. Almost as if you are trying to punish women for having sex
@@unseenhero7498so? Yes she's responsible, and what she's gonna do with that responsibility is have an abortion possibly.
Having sex and accepting the possible risks, whether it's a pregnancy or an std, doesn't mean now all your rights to bodily autonomy are thrown out the window, and the government should have a right to force you to do something with your body.
If you decide to get into a car, that doesn't meant you consent to getting in a car crash and then being responsible for your own injuries by not being allowed by the government to fix your injuries, but rather having to just "with the consequences you knew could happen".
What else do you want the government to have the right to do with your body and life against your will? What about all the kids who get pregnant, who don't even have a fully developed brain to understand the consequences in the long run and to think critically? Fuck them too, because the younger child inside them is more important? Or do they also get special rights and circumstances, that grown women don't, because again, fuck them right?
@@unseenhero7498 So you would be against abortion in cases of rape and incest? Do you think it's OK to murder children if someone was raped? Does it matter if it's the resulting fetus or a random five year old? It shouldn't, not if you actually believe the bullshit you are spewing.
Don't play pretend that this has ANYTHING to do with the fetus, you just want to control women's bodies. That's what this is about and it is ALL that this is about.
@@unseenhero7498I've always found that idea weird, because it has the same feeling as if somebody said that a pedestrian who is struck by a car while crossing the street should not be allowed to sue the driver if there was a way to get to the destination without crossing the street, meaning it was entirely the pedestrian's fault for taking that risk.
I have been pregnant twice and have had an abortion both times. Both times my early pregnancy caused severe morning sickness (vomiting morning, noon, and night) and other severe symptoms associated with early pregnancy. By having the abortion, I medically treated the illnesses I was suffering from. I have a right not to suffer. No one has the right to cause me to suffer. Therefore I had every right to terminate.
There’s a particular issue that can cause that throughout pregnancy to the point that some women become hospitalized over dehydration and malnutrition because they literally cannot keep anything down and are consistently vomiting. It’s extremely dangerous to be in that state for an extended period of time and I would think it could potentially lead to a miscarriage. It’s a nasty deal! I’m grateful that you could get the care that you needed when you needed it. ❤
You know you can get medication to treat morning sickness right? You don’t have to abort the baby to feel better. You are highly regarded
@andymcmeekin2532 you know that those medications aren't always effective, right? You know that medications can have side effects and reactions and contraindications, right? You know medications and treatments take time and cost money that not everyone has, right? You know that hyperemesis gravidarum can have long-term consequences, which can lead to women not even being able to physically care for themselves, right? You are aware that this can lead to job loss and associated loss of resources to care oneself in the short and long term, right? You are aware that this comment has yet to even touch on the negative mental effects this can cause, right? You are aware that this is all a moot point because bodily autonomy is basic human right, right?
@@carpevinum8645 It's interesting how Andy here trivializes a severe medical issue and dismisses it. He thinks that it was just some minor inconvenience for the OP. Or that her doctor wouldn't have tried medical intervention because that doctor forgot that there's medication that can help with morning sickness to various degrees.
It's this type of trivializing pregnancy, where a woman is impregnated and then pops out the baby, that lead to some people thinking that the woman shouldn't have any rights to terminate it.
@@queuecee I saw one comment on another video that women couldn't really die from pregnancy. I am consistently amazed at how ignorant some men can be about pregnancy.
He lost me when he said rape victims should not be allowed to terminate a pregnancy. These people are insane. And it just went down from there 😳 .
It's always about controlling women
@@amandasunshine2and raising dumb people's ego.
I forgot which comedian said it (George Carlin maybe), we're dirt poor and stupid, lets *bleep*. 5 kids, welfare and living a trailer later, lets *bleep* some more.
What? It’s logically consistent from his POV. Are you saying you’re allowed a pass for murder (from his pov) if you’ve been victimized First?
@@technofsfsfsfs What? Do you think the 10 years old should carry the pregnancy to the end? Do you think the victims should be burdened with carrying their abusers' children? You're sick.
@@technofsfsfsfs I'm not arguing from his point of view.
People who do not understand biology or Healthcare should never be able to dictate what Healthcare people can have. I don't care if someone thinks a group of cells is a human, zero fucks. That doesn't mean they get to dictate other people lives.
that's all it ever amounts to in the end, they plainly and simply want to tell other human beings they aren't even remotely acquainted with what they can and can't do, to hold dominion over them
"People who do not understand biology " - Biology "According to science, human life begins at conception, or fertilization, when a sperm and egg fuse to form a zygote." Delusional Atheist. Your whole worldview is science and you deny it.
@@Rage867 you should have been aborted cause you are a freak
Worst when their "opinion" comes from à bad religion with immoral values. Like christians
@@THESMARTERMAN555When life begins is irrelevant to whether or not a woman should have the right to bodily integrity. Do try not to make oughts from is's.
*NOTICE FOR ANTI ABORTION POSTERS*
Please try to learn:
1) What abortion is
2) What consent is
3) How pregnancy occurs, including what an ectopic pregnancy is
4) How pregnancy affects the body
5) The difference between embryos, fetuses, and babies
6) What bodily autonomy is and entails, including consent
If anyone has additions please comment for updating!
(Edited with updates)
I just wanna add: Ectopic Pregnancies
This has more to do with #4.
But I’d add consent.
@@meloveAi
Cheers, I'll update 2 to include it
@@elem-sike4161
Good point!
Learn 😂😂 good luck.
Remember guys, banning abortion is not helping neither the woman neither the baby because:
1. A pregnant woman can always have an abortion in a different state or country
2. She can inflict a miscarriage to get rid of the pregnancy, something that can cause medical complications
3. She can have an abortion into a shady place in un unsterile, unsafe and unhigienic environment that might cause medical complications that could cause death or to make her unable to convince again later in life
4. She can drink alcohol because she doesn't care about the fetus casing it mental health and health related issues when it's born
5. The baby can end up in an orphanage with a big chance of never being adopted, so never having a family, so never being loved, so etc.
Smoking is also a thing.
Abortion bans have also been tried in the communist dictatorship of romania, Tell that to a conservative the next time it comes up.
#2 and 3 was the reason why Rowe v. Wade existed. The very first thing I thought when Republicans were talking about removing it.
Unfortunately #1 is the one the Republicans care the most about stopping -- and so they've made lists of names of women who've been doing this, anticipating having their chosen one become president, and also have drafts for how they would "shut it down".
But the rest, they don't care as much about. Smoking and drinking, well those are personal freedoms so... fine, I guess? As for induced miscarriage they've indicated they'd treat _all_ instances of miscarriage as murder. And orphanages would make a great source of cheap labor for the mines, mills, and other -slave- low-cost labor.
Poor pregnant women do not have the luxury of leaving their state for an abortion in Canada, or overseas.
I wish that when abortion comes up, they would ask the caller about their stance on vaccine and mask mandates, because a lot of the pro-life crowd trotted out bodily autonomy when it came to them being asked to being vaccinated.
Good point 👍
I am an atheist and pro choice on both accounts. I decided against having the hastilu concocted covjab, due to lacking information. I have not regretted that for a moment, Seing the harm dine to jabbed people, losing my healthy uncle due to clotting 20 minutes after his second jab.. and hearing hundreds of similar stories, I know I made the right choice. My children made a different choice, and all of them are now having health issues that are new..
And if I heard hundreds of stories, as a single person.. how many stories do you think is out there? There is so much I could tell you about this experiment.
And we either have bodily autonomy or we dont,. If there is a single thing that can override that, we do not have bodily autonomy at all.. then we are cattle.
@@Goldenhawk583 you are stupid
The main anti-abortion argument I hear is that women who don’t keep their legs closed & skirt down, need to take responsibility for their actions. Even the willingness to let SA victims be an exception reinforces the notion that of different treatment for innocent women compared to guilty ones. And ignores that this “responsibility” is extremely painful & often health- or life-threatening.
It's a dumb notion anyway..... getting an abortion IS taking responsibility
It's also just technically saying that pregnancy is a punishment for sex.
@@terrencelockett4072 Its not punishment, you should acknowledge it is an effect of sex.
@@THESMARTERMAN555in the pro life world, its a direct punishment for failure of not being able to avoidcpregnancy
@@firmak2 Where is this so called pro life world? You are dismissing accountability both on the woman or man that performed the act.
He already agreed I am not obligated to sustain or save someone. So he should be perfectly fine to just remove a fetus, making sure it survives the removal, and leave it at that. Nobody killed it. Just stopped sustaining it. That should be fine, no?
No he thinks that women should be punished for having sex. That's ultimately what this entire bullshit argument boils down to. Slut shaming.
@@perryegolson833yup
I would remind people that a fertilized egg can implant in places other than a uterus. Fallopian tube for example. Well... what happens if these dear sweet concerned men were to be implanted with a fertilized embryo? What would they feel if their body was used and violated against their consent? I really think we need to start forcing these men to gestate a pregnancy considering how they don't understand a woman's right to her own body.
Look, men, generally, have 1 x chromosome so they have the female genetic code already. They can do it. The placenta is from the embryo. Just implant it near their liver and let life live. The uterus isn't necessary.. it's just a expanding bag in a woman's body. And c-sections will work too.
Isn't it interesting that we have done research to produce Viagra or Rogaine but we've never considered the idea of using men to gestate a pregnancy.....And it's not so impossible. we do gastric bypass and do a cut and paste with people's GI tract. Surgeons can use excess internal tissue to create a "uterus" in a man.
He actually said, with his own words, that if it was possible to remove the fetus and sustain it without harming it he would be perfectly fine with that. Guess you didn't hear that part.
@@TheMopar181990 Strangely enough, I don't believe him. It's like saying "Sure... if a teapot exists circling Saturn..." but he's put no effort into understanding what pregnancy is. He's put no effort in understanding the history of abortion. He's put no effort in understanding the health effects of pregnancy.
He's just a modern city who is visiting a primitive village and is telling them they need to invest in wi-fi .. when the village doesn't have electricity.
In other words, it's just a lie to make his position seem more palatable. But let's just state this.. why aren't they acknowledging that the woman is a human and has rights to her own body? Why is that never prioritized or respected? We have to respect delusions, hypothetical babies, feelings... but where's the respect for women as human beings?
Gohan just seems like a guy who is just desperate to justify his misogyny, this argument became/is so ridiculous
Oh 1000%
So desperate that he projects his own sexism onto a straw man of Shannon, pretending she said he wasn't allowed to have an opinion after listening to his for 1/2 hour.
Never underestimate a narcissists burning lust to manufacture oppression for themselves when faced with even the most reasonable or minor criticism/disagreement.
I think a big factor is also that he wants attention. While misogyny is a big part, his ideas/suggestions didn't sound genuine, I think he just came up with what he thought would get him on the air and make him seem _unique_ ... a real outside-the-box thinker with his dumb takes.
@@Caitlin_TheGreat do you mean he does not actually believe what he was saying?, I have no reason to believe he does not believe, it is just incredibly stupid and uninformed, maybe you thought it was not genuine, because of how stupid and contradictory it was?, to me it seems like a lot of people believe very similar things to Gohan, when he started talking about the human organisms I was so pissed, what idiocy, anyway this is a long way to say I think he was being genuine in saying what he believes, it's just what he believes is incredibly stupid
Drives me to distraction that people like Gohan are speaking from a place of incredible ignorance on this topic.
It’s so much more efficient than taking the time to learn about the topic first, y’know?
Summation of his view. When is abortion legal? When this random guy says it is. When anyone goes to the doctor for healthcare, he will be called in each and every case lol.
Of course a man can have an opinion, however, unless that guy is a medical doctor, their opinion means f*ck all in this situation!!!!!
I know. I read somewhere that the number of vasectomies has gone up in states where abortion is banned. Do they realize that if a couple gets pregnant and they both want her to have an abortion, they're also taking away the man's choice?
That mean NO ONE'S opinion means fuck all unless they're a medical doctor.
@@WizardImp *means.
If you feel the need to share your half-baked, ill-informed opinions online, at least check your grammar.
@@riccardozanoni2531 Not a question of bad grammar. Question of not wearing my glasses.
For the record, I stand by what I said.
Unbelievable how people like this caller can say the most heinous shit about women's rights in the presence of others and not feel immediate shame.
But a fetus *_I S N ' T_* a human organism it's a clump of human cells. A tumour is more human than a fetus. 😂😂
I don't usually care for throwbacks, but I'm definitely clicking my two favorite hosts!
You only need 1 argument for abortion even though there are a dozen good ones: When abortion is legal fewer abortions are performed. So not only does the quantity drop but the quality goes up. No matter if you are for or against it at that point it only makes sense to vote and be in favor of it.
When legalized, it’s fewer.
Until it no longer is.
Prohibition was stupid but in the long run, ending it didn’t decrease alcohol usage.
@@Thunderbolt-9
Did you know prohibition actually increased alcohol use?
@@Thunderbolt-9
Was your mom a heavy drinker, while pregnant with you?
Because that would explain, why you are comparing the consumtion of alcohol, to an abortion.
Do have to REALLY explain, why that is super fukked up?
@@nealjroberts4050 and ending it decreased it for a long time.
Now it’s higher than ever
@@Thunderbolt-9
There are multiple factors that go into increased alcohol usage. Stress is one of them - it is much harder for the average person than 50 years ago.
I had a miscarriage and what I saw was not a baby it was a potential baby. I had 3 children after that those what maybe's that's just a big difference dude.
Send all the unwanted kids to Gohans house and see how soon he changes his attitude.
The thing that a lot of people also don't get on this topic is, you can be pro-choice for society but not really want yourself or your partner to have an abortion. That's why the term "choice" is used. If someone chooses to never have an abortion, that's their personal choice, not one they should make for everyone.
Pro-choice people also often want to reduce the situations that lead to abortions in the first place, by providing things like comprehensive health education, access to contraceptives, affordable childcare, affordable medical care, fair wages, and additional help for the disadvantaged.
Pro-life people basically want everyone pregnant all the time with zero control or access to medical care. Just yolo ten pregnancies and figure out how to afford the kids.
@@LaCeiba1924
Yea, I don't even really like to call them pro-life because it's not really what they are. They're just anti-abortion. They'll force people to give birth while trying to cut funding to programs that help feed kids.
@@LaCeiba1924yeah and unfortunately we see this as a trend throughout history, especially within religious groups with it being considered wrong or sinful to avoid having children in any way... So people literally had like families of 15 kids while only half of them would even make it to adulthood, all for what?! I guess pro-lifers would be better off in the 1800s and earlier
The point is that at any point the mother can choose to no longer consent to have another human use their body and bodies resources to sustain itself. Anything else would result in being forced to have their body used against their will, which is immoral and in every other case illegal.
I fuckin love Shannon and Forrest. Two of the best hosts there is. Keep up the phenomenal work! ❤❤
If a woman dies during childbirth, who goes to prison for manslaughter, the child or the father?
Oooooh! Never heard that before, I'll be borrowing that tyvm. 😄
I'm a Florida man and take too a 2A philosophy when it comes to abortion. If I can shoot a person who's on my property without permission, women (or gestators? I am obviously a cis dude, sorry.) should be able to remove the fetus if they deem it does not have permission to be in her (their) person.
I don't understand the other side at all.
There are simply too many people on this planet to totally take abortion off the table.
The doctors end the baby first so it doesn't die slowly and horrifically in the outside world. Their skin and organs (especially respiratory) aren't fully developed, they die from their organs not working (so it's kinda similar to organ failure) or infection because their skin isn't developed yet. Source? I watched a baby die like that because it was born too early. The mom was a teenager. A diabetic teenager. Who wasn't really sure about having it, because she hated her boyfriend, but her family was southern and religious. She ended up in the hospital for awhile, but the baby was there even longer, in an incubator. The family never even got to really touch him when he was alive. He had no skin and looked like something from Hellraiser. So maybe don't make your chronically ill teenagers who don't even have control of their disease yet, have babies. It's kind of such an obvious thing, I'm surprised the guy made the argument that doctors kill the baby first.
And medical privacy is already being violated. If you're not pregnant and you go to the doctor or hospital with drugs in your system, they don't call the cops. If you happen to be pregnant...even if you didn't know yet, and they test you and there are drugs in your system, you're going to jail where I'm at. My county has arrested more pregnant women than anywhere else in the US. It's labelled as child endangerment.
"It's sexist for you to be mad at me for saying you should have fewer rights."
Who cares Gohan?, why do you think you get to decide for someone else when a person becomes a parent?, the cause of death is irrelevant as the fetus is not actually a person
5:34
Gohan.... no they freaking dont.
The gestational age is relevent andnup til 3 months a pill and a period is what an abortion looks like.
Get over yourself gohan
He's so dishonest it's annoying
Yes this is true, they can give you a pill. I myself chose to undergo a d&c just so I would be sure the termination would be effective but was offered the pill to induce miscarriage. I've had 4 d&c's in total 3 for miscarriages and 1 for a termination.
Why do men keep calling about abortion? I don't recall seeing any AE videos where women have called to defend forced birth. Not yet anyway.
Women are much less likely to call call-in shows than men on any subject. Abortion isn’t special.
As predicted; Gohan ignores the fact women are FORCED to carry an unwanted fetus. Effectively giving women LESS RIGHTS than a CORPSE. His only argument is that he is against murder.
Get 'em Shannon Q! I hear you!!!
Does a person have the right to use another person's body against their will? no? Then we're done here, welcome to Pro-Choice
Haven't watched yet but hearing Shannon rant on "pro-lifers" Is so satisfying.
She also rants on men while in the same conversation, finding herself unable to use the word "woman." It was disappointing to hear.
@@seekeroftruth6728 because not only women get pregnant, but cis men specifically do what she said. "It's always men", not people who can't get pregnant or people with penises. Men specifically.
What sucks is that Gohan seems like an actually friendly, nice person... He just doesn't want to believe that the fetus isn't a person.
Why should he believe the lie that an innocent human life (fetus) is not a person?
Atheists lie.
@@EdithBromfeldThe question contains a false premise, the false premise being that the idea of a fetus being not a person is a lie. So if we remove the false premise, we’re left with the question, “Why should he believe that an innocent [fetus] life is not a person?” That’s an easy one to answer: “Because it isn’t.”
@@Leith_Crowther You are lying to claim a fetus is not a living human being.
What is the fetus? A watermelon?
You degenerates are liars. Liars justifying slaughter of innocent human lives. Horrible people. No better than NAZI's dehumanizing humans to slaughter them.
Fetus, person, it doesn't matter. It begins and ends at bodily autonomy. Period. Full stop. And Gohan is a freaking coward for ending the call after Shannon took him down in just the most BRUTAL fashion by stating that she was accusing him of being sexist. Holy crap. Hey Gohan!!!! You want to put Shannon and all others like her in jail if they fail to bring a pregnancy to term. And YOU have the nerve to claim you were offended?
@@EdithBromfeld
Like when the Amalekites were slaughtered? Or the Midianites?
Or what you want to do to atheists? Or what you want to do to theist nonbelievers?
This guy might have the craziest abortion stance I have ever heard lmao.
There’s no debate, it’s your body! Do what you want to it!
I do get what he’s saying, and it’s sort of a valid point when viewed very very literally. The issue is that the “moral” alternative in this argument is to induce birth of the living, non-viable fetus. This is medically possible, and would destroy the argument that “abortion isn’t ok because it intentionally kills the fetus before ending the pregnancy.” And the ONLY advantage to that is that on paper it’s more blameless. The reality is that doing it that way is more dangerous and painful for the mother, which is why we don’t do it.
I think that only applies to later term (post 10 weeks) pregnancies, where medical abortion can’t be used and surgical abortion is more appropriate. In the case of a medical abortion, my understanding is that there are two pills. The first block’s progesterone, the second induces a period/miscarriage. I genuinely don’t know whether either medication directly does *anything* to the fetus, but it seems as though even if it does, the purpose of the medication is not at any point to “kill” the fetus, the purpose is entirely restricted to the patient’s body.
It’s undeniable that the later in a pregnancy an abortion occurs, the more complicated the procedure, and the more complicated questions of personhood become. But personhood is a completely different problem than bodily autonomy. There’s not a point in pregnancy where it’s acceptable to force a woman to be an incubator. And it also doesn’t make sense to force more risk on the woman to skirt around a logistical dilemma. If you are disturbed by the method of later abortions (and I think that’s an understandable reaction) the solution is to broaden access to early abortions so that there will be fewer abortions where it is necessary to destroy the fetus.
Surgical abortions are still performed early on in pregnancy, I've had 4 of them. 1 for an abortion and 3 for miscarriages. All were performed before 10 weeks. Your information is not correct, while a pill is available for early pregnancies they are not the only option and any woman can choose to have a fetus surgically removed even verybearly on.
I feel like I'm the only pro choice person in the world. Why do these hosts get sucked into these ridiculous thought experiments? I have the right to make decisions regarding my body as I see fit. Same goes for anybody with a womb.
Oh you're not. Most women are pro-choice, just not vocal about it because of the social stigma. But 1 in 5 women in the US will have at least one abortion in their life, those are tens of millions, plus the ones that won't but feel safer having the option... that's why ending Roe was so electorally expensive for the GOP.
What makes Gohan think he should have a say in matters that don't directly impact him? He was even using loaded language like "killing" fetuses. it's, frankly, none of his business.
I feel like if husbands had to start watching their wives get taken to jail or prison after something like a miscarriage, it would actually result in a complete revolt and rebellion. Like that’s just way too far.
Frickin right Shannon! Thanks for blowing up on this guy. Yes!
So I a family decides to remove grandma from life support, and the doctor turns off the breathing machine keeping her alive, does that make the doctor a murderer too?
This dude did a final disservice to Dragonball and men. But I definitely think what he did the former, made me most sad.
This call is a great example of how, if all you have is religious "morality," you can't really understand things like justice, responsibility, grace, or fault. It breaks your brain.
Every time I hear someone bring this shit up, I just say "You voted for Herschel Walker, so you're never allowed to talk about abortion again."
This dude has a completely skewed view of ethics. He may not even be aware of the concept because his shit is all over the place. What if a woman refuses to eat healthy or take care of herself and as a result her baby dies in Utero? Is she a murderer? When I was deployed a close friend’s wife was pregnant. She was so fucking beside herself because he was in a combat zone her stress and inability to eat a regular diet led to her pregnancy ending in miscarriage. So should she be charged with a crime?
These hosts are a perfect team!! Love them
I have the feeling that this person would be against The Morning After pill.
I'm against Viagra. It may cause unwanted pregnancies.
It's a pity Gohan can't be pregnant on a cold dark night with no money.
Damn Shannon! Swinging hammers at this dude.
Every pregnancy is high risk. Every birth is high risk. NO UTERUS NO OPINION
Shoot, here I was gonna vote partly based on my strong pro-choice stance, but I guess I don’t actually have an opinion. I’ll factor that out of my voting decision.
Women got the right to abort because of men's opinion
They'll only keep that right with the support of men and their opinion.
Why people like you want to alienate half the population is beyond me.
@@joshsheridan9511 Especially considering that a lot of women oppose abortion.
@@queueceeit's only with abortion such mindlessness comes up.
Nobody tells me if I'm not black my opinion on racism is worthless.
I understand her anger. I've never been pregnant, but due to my autism I've been in so many situations where people decided things for me without me being able to say anything. Varying from "what school should i go to" and "should and could I have a job" to teachers in school discussing what i can and can't do in my free time with my parents/friends or alone.
They even told me that i should not be going on a spesific ride in a theme park that I've been on for 10 times at that point because that ride is "not autism friendly"😂😂😂
Of course, I've been on it, and I'm fine. Nothing happened.
I've had teachers tell me that i should not have kids with my "condition." Well, I don't want kids, but that's my own decision to make. Also, I've been self-employed for the last 4 years and doing fine
Pro- choice does not, in any way, mean anti-life. Religion makes one be anti-choice. Who are you to shove your religion on me. It is between "God" and that individual. According to religions, only God gets to decide what is and isn't 'sin'. Not a fellow human being. America used to stand for freedom for individuals regardless of race, opinion, or creed.
"I don't know anything about the law or the medical reality of abortion but I'm going to insist that everyone do what I say."
Failure to render aid is also a crime in many places. Not that he had a good point otherwise.
And abortion isn’t failure to render aid. Failure to render aid doesn’t apply when the aid is for 7 months and giving you sickness
Rendering aid, is also not universal.
If the rendering aid would be endangering me, than I don't have to do it.
I do not have to jump into the water, to save someone, if that is too dangerous for me to do.
On the flip side, it can also be a crime TO render aid when you aren’t qualified to, especially if you get it drastically wrong and hurt the person worse.
@@vertigo4236 correct. However, not calling an ambulance/emergency line would qualify as failure to render aid in many countries
As to abortion: Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, not the death of a fetus.
But, since current tech level ensure that a removed fetus WILL die, it is ethically responsible to do so in such a way as to cause the least harm to the carrier.
This is why the fetus is killed during removal.
I love you, Shannon.
Wow! I would be in jail based on the caller’s justification. I’ve had three miscarriage and I would have had to fight to defend myself in court each time? FU dude; I’m still struggling with the losses of my babies.
One thing I don't understand: Why is human life held so sacred? Why not animal life? Animals have the same right to life as humans.
Why stop at animals? Why not also include plants or organisms in any other kingdom? They are all life.
@@queuecee Bacteria don't feel pain.
@@papabeard4976 How do you know bacteria don't feel pain? Do you think bacteria will move away from things that might hurt it?
@@queuecee Because they're single cell organisms. They don't have nervous systems, which is a prerequisite for feeling pain.
Addionally, you really want to go down this rabbit hole of allowing all bacteria to thrive?
@@papabeard4976 Really? So you know that a central nervous system is needed to feel pain? So you are good with eating animals that do not have a CNS. Right?
You really want to go down this rabbit hole???
The recent debacle in Texas made my blood boil. The AG in Texas actually said that her appeal would be denied because she hadn't convinced his office that the abortion was medically necessary.
I definitely don't want blood taken without my consent to sustain the life of another.
Thank God for abortions 🙏
And a good Tuesday Morning 🌞 AXP Fans and Theists ❤❤❤
Peace Love Empathy From Australia 💪🤠☝️
💯, Shannon! This affects the health and wellbeing of a specific subset of the population and does not affect the people outside of that population. When the part that is not affected gets to make the rules for the affected portion of the population and cries foul when we voice objections to their ludicrous rules that they can’t understand the implications of, it’s ridiculous and maddening. It’s not sexist to point out the fact that this guy doesn’t understand the issue the way people who are actually affected by it are.
Imho this is one of my favorite conversation in Axp. The caller is a good faith caller honestly answering question while clearly making their point. Their position is something i oppose but im so glad it doesnr boil down to Because God Said So.
Not completely honest since he's either lying or ignorant and using his ignorance to defend his position. He was inaccurate on how abortions work
This 'debate' needed a pause after Shannon shared that harrowing personal story. The hypothetical points about fruit straight after hearing about her MS etc made me gasp. Ethically I'm opposed to abortion but the law and the state should stay the hell away from draconian rulings about women's health issues and this conversation shows some of the absurd implications of treating fetuses as fully sentient people with certainty and no evidence at the very least. I'm so sorry Shannon.
Y'all lost me a lot here. Several incorrect rebuttals. "A doctor isn't a bodyguard" has to be one of the most incorrect statements one can unintentionally make! 😂😂
About 30 minutes onwards was epic though. Nice work there.
Love you all! Thank you!
🏳️⚧️🇺🇲💙
Well they arent, they dont have an obligation to step in between 2 people throwing hands
@@firmak2 THEY GUARD YOUR BODY! In the most literal sense possible! 🤣🤣🤣
@@Alexa-RaineYou know that's not what bodyguard means
@@Alexa-Raine but they dont, bodyguards do it. doctors fix you up after the beatdown, they dont stop the beatdown.
as one who since i was able to fully understand what it means even if i didnt know all the details of what it ment, wanting kids and making a family with my partner(s) over time. gone through 3 wanted and planned (by both) that ended in misscarriges one unplanned but wanted (by both again) misscarrige, and one where the other party told me months later due to her knowing how long and much i wanted the kids and family life she had a abortion. and she feared my respons on her wanting to abort. when she told me the only thing i was not angry but sad about was that she didnt tell me so i could come with her to the procedure too. we werent ready, or able to raise a kid. i want the family dream but im not living in the dream world. i fully support her choice to abort. none of us was in a position to bring it to term and bring a life into this world. but she was afraid id object so she didnt tell me until much later. and my only objection was that i wasnt there with her through it. some day i might be a father, and i hope to pass that along. biological or not.
YESSSSS!!!!! Shannon spitting 🔥
Caller basically arguing for pre-birth adoption
Before anything, I want to clarify that I am in favor of the legalization of abortion. That being said, I'm still waiting to see what happens the day a caller is asked "If I need a blood transfusion to survive, should you be forced to give it to me?" and the caller answers "yes".
This is why when people ask me my opinion on abortion i always say it’s irreverent because it’s not my place. I don’t vote on that issue beyond voting for candidates that are more likely to support choice by virtue of the fact my atheism generally has an impact on my politics.
I love the analogy with “all lives matter” to telling someone doing a fundraiser for breast cancer, that they are saying f*ck skin cancer!
A question I’d like this type of caller to answer is -as this is the core of the organ donor analogy- since no human has the right to live at the medical expense of another without their consent, which they freely agree with, would they prefer that the fetus be removed and left to “fend for itself” outside the womb? Of course we know it would die, but within their parameters it seems they wouldn’t be able to say that it’s immoral without admitting they haven’t a counter to the organ donor argument.
Let it all out Shannon. I agree, I’m just done. I’m living in Missouri and it’s a hellscape for abortion topics. Even trying to actively remove the vote from our ballet this week. They say “let the states decide” yet they don’t let the people decide. This is the issue. The hypocrisy is insanity.
They aren’t “pro-life”. For the powerful that push the anti-abortion agenda it’s just a wedge issue. For the rank-and-file it’s just obedience to the powerful that speak to them from the pulpit. For the moralists it’s about being anti-sex. None of it is right, well-informed, or sane.
If women suddenly banded together and said no more sex until the laws reflect their right to bodily autonomy... the laws would change over night...
These are a series of questions that flew into my brain to ask the caller in regard to the hypothetical of having an artificial womb outside the body that would carry the fetus to term:
-What happens to the baby that now exists with no parent(s) to (willingly) accept responsibility for it?
-Does it become a ward of the state and simply be shoveled into an already overwhelmed foster system?
-If so, Pro-lifers typically also vote for people pushing policies that actively hinder or 'terminate' social safety nets, so how will that work out?
--Would the state force child support on the parent(s) to finance these programs as well? (1) In this case, the incentive to have an off the record (likely illegal in this hypothetical) and potentially dangerous abortion so that the mother's life won't be drastically diminished by burdens created by such policies.
-If not defaulting to be a ward of the state, will there be forced child rearing by one or both of the biological parents? See (1) again.
I really don't think people like the caller have the ability to think about the secondary and tertiary effects of their ideas, which is also shown in how much disregard they have for the baby once it's born.
This call had me fuming a little and I wanted to vent. If anyone has counterpoints or want to explore the hypothetical some more, I welcome engagement.
If we're adding the doctor to the mix, we should add anyone who compelled a blood or organ donation. If someone is bleeding out, and I have the right blood type, compelling me to donate the blood would be a crime. Likewise, Compelling a person to bring a pregnancy to term is a crime these scenarios always leave off their own responsibility
Wow. Caller took a dark turn when he decided it was OK to shoot a 5 year old for playing with a sword.
When this was initially posted, Gohan would be in the comments section. He would be the typical unreasonable and angry theist lol
Shannon Q, thank you for saying what you did about the gender disparity and tone policing in these conversations.
All of those nuances, ALL OF THEM, are why I hold my opinion: It's simply none of my business.
There is no amount of information that could be provided to anyone to allow them to understand why another person feels a certain way. So there is no possible way to understand what decisions a person makes to allow an abortion.
It's simply not my business. Leave abortion alone.
While I don't agree with his premise; the callers argument is logically consistent and sound based on our current legal system assuming a fetus has the same exact rights as a human being. The fact that Forrest couldn't grasp the difference between an innocent bystander and someone causing harm to you is astonishing.
A decision to carry a fetus to term or abort a pregnancy is the pregnant woman's decision alone. Unless, she chooses to include the biological father's desire in her decision. Even if he was willing to have the embryo implanted from her uterus into his body, if that were ever to become a possibility (I'm jumping a lot of hurdles here), he would need her permission (cooperation) to perform the surgery. It's no wonder our ancestors' were Patriarchal with a capital "P", we don't want to accept our lack of control in population reproduction. Christian's should remind themselves that their God is the all-time abortion champion and move on from the subject.
I have to say, Shannon stayed calmer a lot longer than I would have. I can't believe, well, actually I can, that he was ignorant and conceited enough to say Shannon didn't think he had the right to an opinion b/c he was a guy. He shouldn't, but the reality is that he does. It would be awesome if guys like him had to get a room full of women to vote to determine whether he can have 'x' medical procedure. Regardless of if it's necessary to his ability to live. I do wish he could have been forced to understand that a fetus IS NOT the equivalent of a baby. And that as long as it is in the woman's body, it IS forced organ donation. More than just her uterus (which is an organ) is used to keep both her and the fetus alive.
I'm too old to get pregnant now, but I have a condition that made it likely that any fetus I conceived would suffer severe disabilities. Some of the worst would have resulted in a child who was blind, deaf, mentally disabled, and in need of numerous heart surgeries just to reach the age of 3, after which the child would die. So, a child whose short life would be full of pain, and no way to explain why s/he kept going to the hospital.
According to MY conscience, knowingly bringing a child like that into the world is child abuse. Fortunately, our contraception worked, so I never had to make the decision to abort, but I wrestled with that decision in advance, just in case, so I know what it would have been. I would have followed my conscience, gotten the abortion, and spent the rest of my life grieving.
And politicians who have never had to wrestle with that kind of decision think they have the right to override MY conscience. And some of them want to outlaw contraception, as well. Disgusting.
When men have uteruses, then their opinion will matter. Why are there no laws pertaining to men contributing to an unwanted pregnancy?
Did you know that people can have opinions on abortion based on the ideas of freedom, bodily autonomy, privacy, etc? Of course if you can't empathize with the kinds of issues that are part of human reproduction, then their opinion matters less. But it's not because they lack some organ. Would you exclude someone who's had a hysterectomy from being able to have a view on this topic?
Gohan is the living embodiment of the trolley problem.
He draws a distinction between standing around letting a thing happen, and causing the thing.
Either way, you're reasonable if you can affect the outcome without cost.
Fun facts about "high risk" and self defense. The general standard for using deadly force, the one we attempt to hold police to, for example, is when things have intent, capability, and opportunity to cause death or severe bodily harm That line would include a leg, but it also includes any dismemberment, reduction in function (like blinding you, or ear-clapping to ruin hearing, etc) as well as disfiguring.
The caller removes intent.
So basically all abortions would meet his crazy standard, because pregnancies definitely risk that bodily harm. The pregnancy clearly causes permanent, detrimental effects in a very large number of pregnancies.
Abortion shouldn't even be an issue. If you don't want an abortion then you shouldn't get one... Pretty simple. Pro-life is really the position that you know what's best for everyone else... It has nothing to do with valuing life.
... Also kudos to Shannon for laying into this guy.
I wish I had a dollar for every time Forrest said LIKE. I’d be a millionaire.
Started out having some hope for that caller... Turns out I still have hope to lose.
Shannon, the only thing this man will say is: I'm ashamed on behalf of men, because there seem to be a lot of A-hats like this around
This is the first time ever that i agree with the caller about putting the fetus in a man-made embryo.
And can we call it anti choice and not pro life? Words have meaning. I'm neither anti choice, nor pro death.
as you said, words have meaning. The issue is about the legality of abortions, meaning that the two opposing positions are pro-legality or against it. Now, if someone is against the legality of abortion, they are for making it illegal, and if someone wants to make abortions illegal, that is directly impacting on people's ability to choose to have an abortion. If someone is directly and intentionally affecting people's ability to choose to have an abortion, they are BY DEFINITION anti-choice on the topic of abortions.
The fact that you don't like the meaning of a word, doesn't allow you to change it. Words have meaning.
@riccardozanoni2531 no, it's not about legality. It's about labeling two juxtaposing positions on a single issue. It makes sense to use juxtaposing terminology for those labels. It's really that simple. For a woman's right to choose and not for a woman's right to choose is a true dichotomy, and as such, the labels for it should also be a true dichotomy.
According to this guy smashing an acorn with a hammer is the same as cutting down an oak tree.
Here's a guy who can't outrun a 5 year old 😂😂😂😂