I never get tired of learning about mechanical design (I'm a SW engineer, and machining is a recent hobby of mine), especially when it comes to firearms. The breadth of things you cover is really cool, and I love how you point out what is unique on the pieces you cover and the relative advantages and disadvantages of each. Keep up the good work Ian :)
I own a Savage 1907 (32 ACP) and I've always been fascinated by Savage and their pistol designs. Years ago, at a Gun Show in Las Vegas I got see one of the few Savage 1907 45 ACPs ever lymade (less than 300) and it looked my gun on steroids. Of course, I couldn't handle it as it was under glass, but it looked exactly like mine except for the grip safety. It was supposedly one of guns tested during the US Army trials (at least that what the sign on the display case said). Of course, I take that with a grain of salt from collectors and dealers as every other Colt was carried by Jesse James and every other 1911 was used by Alvin York. At least with this gun it was within the realm of possibilities.
You’ve produced an excellent explanation of the what might have been a Savage 1911. What a strange world an alternate reality if there was no John Browning and no Colt 1911. Walt Kuleck speculates in his 1911 Owner’s Guide that the Savage’s harsh recoil is the result of the slide/barrel not remaining in battery until the bullet left the barrel.
+Rik Raptor How? The disassembly is simple and has only 1 small part to float around while a 1911 has 2. The Savage has no downside in it's disassembly really, and definitely not anything that would be negative for military use.
Numerous guns went missing during shipping to the US Army. I believe my source for that would be Hatcher's Notebook, but I can't be sure. Many guns, therefore, never made it to trials. A few lunchbox guns were also suspected.
+RyeOnHam Yeah, both Colt and Savage had to replace a few "missing" guns, with the presumption being that some got taken home. Which is probably where at least some of the never-refurbished Savage .45s came from.
I just purchased Savage 1907 32acp, and I tried to disassemble it, when i was sliding off slide forward, it was stocking halfway, and was no way to slide it off. I looked trough few disassembling videos, and no one mentioned you have to hold trigger, while sliding slide off, until I watched your video. I discovered after I took slide of, and released trigger, sharp pice of trigger mechanism, jumped up, which was up, when I tried to slide off, the slide, without holding trigger alway through. Thank you!!! P.S I actually tried to pull trigger, just in case, the way like Glock guns disassembles, but didn’t hold it through, like you showed.
'...missing or destroyed under mysterious circumstances...' Ahhh the good old days when a U.S. senator could so brazenly smuggle and deal in black market weapons on the side.
Thanks Ian, I really enjoyed having an in-depth look at these interesting pistols. It's very clear after watching this just how superior the M1911 is to the Savage 45. I've read articles on the pistol trials before and it wasn't very clear as to why or how the M1911 won out other than reliability, ease of use, etc. This demonstrates the power of video and being able to see it rather than read about it. That said I think these are beautiful pistols and would see value in Savage taking another more modern attempt to improve its design for the consumer market. Let's face it there can never be too many 45 auto's on the market. :)
+William Hayden It's really a pity that .45 autos weren't in demand on the civilian market at all back then. If they were maybe Savage would've continued to develop their .45 pistol alongside its .32/.380 cousin. And then the US Army probably would've bought some as secondary pistols during WW1, same way they did Colt and S&W .45 revolvers.
"...1911... Everyone familiar with...". Oh my no. Why I have begun watching this channel. I doubt I'll ever see a 1911 or any other handgun given that I live in England. But I do enjoy watch these videos!
@@maxcactus7 if only! I went to New York when I was in college. But I'd love to visit more of the US. Mainly see as much of your car culture as possible. We have very few American imports here. It'd be great to see lots of muscle cars and go to a range! Since watching this channel I have joined a local club here and done some shot gun shooting. Just clays. I've enjoyed that. Getting my firearms license is under way but it takes a long time and even then I certainly won't see hand gun's. So the 1911 will remain a mystery for now! :)
I used to drool over this pistol. I have loved the .45 ACP round and it's pistols since I was a boy, sitting at my fathers knee and listening to him tell tales of his dealings with the bootleggers of the 30's. He told me of one man who had a farm near ours, his farm house was elegant as only a bootlegger could afford in those times, and hand a very beautiful fireplace with a wide solid walnut mantle. On the mantel; were his pistol's, all Model 1911's and stacks of magazines between the pistols, the middle of the mantle was stacked boxes of ammo. So it was, as soon as I got my FFL in the late 70's my first pistol (I didn't have a lot of money on a city patrolman's salary of $400.00 per month) was an Interarm's Silver Cup M1911A1 which was an old military surplus Remington slide on a frame built by Interarms and completed with surplus parts. She was a good old war horse and served me very well for many years. Eventually all the parkerizing wore off, and I polished her and put her in the bluing tanks to refinish her. I put in a nice skeletonized trigger and extended safety but that was about it. Carried her for many years and never failed to qualify near the top of the list on our quarterly qualification tests.
It's definitely an interesting built gun, and that disassembly and reassembly procedure could definitely be hard under stress. It's definitely something you wouldn't want to do out in the field.
Wow,..If I had ever bought one without getting schooled on take down I would never figure out how that thing came apart,... Thanks for showin that Ian...Very Cool !
They certainly did have an interesting look to them... I've honestly never have seen one of these... Not even in a book... I'm not sure how I overlooked them... Great Video!...
Savage was right on the money with those "gills." They make for a much quieter firing firearm. I have a Model 87D .22 rifle and shooting it is not much louder than a CO2 pellet gun.
Ian you don't have no idea how much I enjoy this videos, everyday I join youtube an before going to bed I wach one of these videos. And I'm so dummy that I've just realized that I was not subscribed, now I am. I've read on other videos that the audio changed and I can perceive that too, this video without any noise cancelling filter sounds much better.
Ease of assembly and disassembly of his designs is one of the hallmarks of JMB. I'm far from an expert, but I could have taken down an reassembled my 1911 Colt several times in the time it took Ian to reassemble the 1911 Savage. The Savage didn't have a ghost of a chance of being adopted competing in a military trial with the Colt. I wouldn't mind having a Savage though!
Yeah I don't think it really matters.. it's not like your gonna be field stripping either in the heat of battle..and while the Browning design is easier to disassemble, the savage isn't so much harder that it really matters
Are these from your personal collection, Ian? How large is your personal collection (if you don't mind my asking)? And thanks for another great video, you are a firearms encyclopaedia with two legs and a ponytail.
+nomad8723 Ha! I wish! No, these belong to a friend of mine. My own collection is fairly extensive by most peoples' standards, but I have very few really expensive guns. Mostly things that are cheap because they are not widely appreciated. :)
+TomasPabon You've already seen a bunch of my guns...and I would rather bring them out one or a few at a time and put them in proper context than do a video that's just a big mess of everything at once. Nothing to be gained from a video like that, except for people to render judgement on the collection as a whole and see if they have more or fewer guns than I do. Nothing useful will come of that...
+Forgotten Weapons OMG thanks for the reply,I understand that you'd rather compartmentalise the videos but you never really state which are yours in the vida so perhaps a playlist? anyway thanks for replying I'm a BIG fan so...I'll go geek out for a while now
very nice pistol, I really like the old style bluing.... could you like make a video talking about the early bluing procces used by companies like colt savage, winchester remington, etc???
It's the same process as now. Hasnt changed much in 100 years. You just dont see it much anymore because it wear extremely fast and there are WAY better options now.
Superbly informative, as always, Ian. Being Canadian, access to pistols is tough without specific license. I inherited a 1911 Savage lever action 99 chambered in 30-30 and the pistols of that vintage have been of interest since seeing Jude Law use one in "Road to Perdition". Thank you for this and all your videos. I'd buy you a beer but thee current exchange rate...
Wikipedia lists this pistols "locking" mechanism under the section limited utility in the article about blowback operation. This section also includes the Blish lock from the Tommy Gun.
I wasn't even aware of the 1911 model. Kind of a pity that large-bore semi-autos weren't really in demand on the civilian market back then, so that there'd be more than 5 of them and maybe it would actually be possible for me to own one.
I’ve heard about the weapon, on earlier episodes of forgotten weapons. Apparently people thought that they were very promising I am perhaps should’ve been adopted instead of the 1911, but I have no idea why anyone would say another one of those things ? From what Ian said it sounds like it doesn’t really lock and therefore a lot of the gun powder is being used to make a fireball which is causing a lot of recoil but not really doing its job. I truly don’t understand even having the opinion that it’s in the same class as a very excellent very useful very accurate very well respected 1911 pistol (s)
If I were writing one of those "Alternate WWII history" themed novels one of the small details I would include would be to replace all the 1911s with this gun.
Yes and no. The Savage design is a delayed blowback. That of Beretta and Grand Power is a breechlock design (the barrel rethreat with the slide until it's unlocked) that derives from that of the Steyr 1912.
I'd sure hate to get a pebble stuck in that grip saftey. Reminds me of the major problem with the serpa holster. Some amount of debris can render it ineffective.
Question, which I had on watching the 1907-1915 video, wouldn’t it have been possible to accidentally hit the mag release during firing due to it’s position on the grip versus having a heel release or even a button release?
Yeah, that re-assembly procedure under field conditions looks very awkward and problematic. And rapid reloads look impossible because dropping the empty mag is a two handed process, that is also a bit awkward. I can see why it never got adopted.
Really interesting video would love to have one of those. Always find it funny what the gun manufacturers thought of sites back then. They are all tiny almost useless things and sharing the site with another part seems kind of crazy. But then again I imagine from other videos I've seen these were for up close kind of stuff anyway maybe more point shooting? Great video though thanks.
+Antonello Prodomo because it was way before the invention of such lovely things as: common sense actually wanting to aim wars that had longer ranges than 'the next trench over'
+Antonello Prodomo They tended to be used much more instinctively and close range, with the sights reserved for careful long shots. In that use, the small sights aren't all that bad; they allow good precision.
+Antonello Prodomo If you think those are tiny, you should see some of John Browning's handmade prototypes that barely even have a notch in the rear sight.
As with so many of the firearms shown on this channel, I would love to see a modern company reproduce this thing with just some minor changes. I think if you shortened the barrel/slide 2inches and polymered the lower you could have a really concealable, reliable, and lightweight .45 acp. I suppose they may want to improve the locking system though, and obviously that extractor with the sites built in won't be the best for accuracy.
The design style of the slide makes me think this was designed with the same designer/design team as the savage 6 series .22 LR "gill" rifles. Also, the takedown process is similar in starting with taking something out of the rear of the tube body of the firearm. I suppose one would have to pour over some primary sources, if they exist, to figure out who the designers are for each gun.
A little bit more attention to the tricky bits of assembly (one piece rear sight & extractor) and subsequent manufacturing by Savage would have helped them greatly. But more was to be made from the small calibre pocket model than from the relatively unknown .45acp which Colt was well ahead with... If only it was a slightly double stacked magazine (10 shot) and the locking mechanism beefed up, it would have given Colt a run for its money! I know Savage had big troubles with supplying these from scratch. Additionally, I would have liked to know the background & value to these models ('07, '10 & '11) as they are exceptionally rare. NRA museum? Thanks for the show & tell.
It would be difficult to argue that the trial board got it wrong when they selected the 1911 but it is too bad Savage did not further refine the design and see if they could make a commercial success or win a foreign contract like with the Brits
A little late reply, however Savage sold many 1907 models in .32 ACP to the French during WWI (one of the many civilian .32 ACP pistols adopted during the war due to time constraint). It worked so well that the French used the same delayed blowback system for the MAB PA-15 in 9mm Luger, that so coupled the Savage system with a more modern slide design. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAB_PA-15_pistol
Ian, does the 1911 model again have the lighter 1907 model slide instead of the heavier slide used the 1910 model? Or did i see that wrong? if so i guess that improvement did not work.. Are the main springs in all 3 models the same?
+Pepper Spray Ian mentioned in a previous video about the styling. Very much an _Art Deco_ like style, although _Art Deco_ itself wasn't really a thing until after 1914 or so...
Think about this, the grip safety could be done away with and install a recoil plate so springs or padding takes some of the recoil. Like anything, it could be perfected.
Trying to visualize a Doughboy field stripping one of these in the conditions prevalent on the Western front in WW1. Sometimes the gov't. gets it right. Well....not lately....
I know you've cleared it (and demonstrated as such) but it always makes me nervous when disassembly involves pushing on the front of the barrel and pulling the trigger.
Hard to imagine to do the disassembly and assembly in muddy trench. Even Browning Colt 1911 has quite horrible disassembly, but this pistol trumps it... on military pistol it should be as easy as for example with Makarov PM..
I will also add these points to the conversation in general: Ian is left handed. For fine motor skills stuff like this, I am too. Everything is backwards to intuition. Especially on things specifically designed for right-handed people. The Simpsons did a whole episode on the subject. So, this is going to look way worse than it actually probably is. Next, development time and investment - Ian said that Savage's intent probably wasn't to actually win the contract, but to fund other programs - which they did, creating the 1915 and 1917 models. This was a trials gun. People forget, it wasn't long after WWI, before we had a Model 1911A1, officially adopted in 1924. This firearm never even made it to a full production model. Lastly, I'll address the "It's too complicated for dumb soldiers" thing - while you certainly don't want your troops needing Swiss watch maker skills, and lots of parts... Have any of you ever disassembled a MK XIX 40mm, fully automatic, belt-fed, grenade launcher? Or, even an archaic M-60? - Or... a Javelin missile weapons system used by the US Infantry? How stupid do some of you think our Troops are?
newdefsys That's because after the 1907 trials, Searle just made a few refinements to the Savage while Browning made extensive improvements to the Colt, to the point that it was practically an all-new design.
I am not one to complain about difficulty of disassembly and reassembly of handguns, but this was a ridiculously complicated takedown design. I mean its almost as if savage went out their way to make this complicated. That alone could have lost the contract lol. This was probably a time when handgun owners didn't wine about complicated weapons as much as they do now though. Now they complain about the 1911 takedown, imagine if they were forced to use these lol
Thank God the military actually does trials and doesn't adopt things based on what looks the coolest. Aside from the recoil and questionable lockup, assembly/disassembly looks to be much more difficult. I am not a 1911 fan but it is obviously a superior handgun.
If you're asking why have a locking mechanism instead of just recoil operated (which I think you are) the way I understand if it's that larger calibers like the 45 do not handle recoil operation all that well. It is more suited for 9mm and below, as I understand. However I could be wrong.
+Necro DWM (the company that was manufacturing Lugers) didn't want to spend the money to make a semi-production run of 200 guns in .45 ACP for the US field trials. The .45 required completely new tooling compared to the 7.65mm and 9mm guns, and the Germany Army had just adopted the Luger in 1908. DWM deemed it not worthwhile to put in the expense for US guns. The US had a pretty small military, nothing like today, and a US military contract wasn't worth the risk and effort compared to contracts for European powers like Germany.
+Forgotten Weapons Given that they were busy building the Luger for the German military at the time, and the fact there was no guarantee that they would win the trials, almost certainly the correct choice on DWM's part. Still makes for a interesting what if, no?
I never get tired of learning about mechanical design (I'm a SW engineer, and machining is a recent hobby of mine), especially when it comes to firearms. The breadth of things you cover is really cool, and I love how you point out what is unique on the pieces you cover and the relative advantages and disadvantages of each. Keep up the good work Ian :)
I own a Savage 1907 (32 ACP) and I've always been fascinated by Savage and their pistol designs. Years ago, at a Gun Show in Las Vegas I got see one of the few Savage 1907 45 ACPs ever lymade (less than 300) and it looked my gun on steroids. Of course, I couldn't handle it as it was under glass, but it looked exactly like mine except for the grip safety. It was supposedly one of guns tested during the US Army trials (at least that what the sign on the display case said). Of course, I take that with a grain of salt from collectors and dealers as every other Colt was carried by Jesse James and every other 1911 was used by Alvin York. At least with this gun it was within the realm of possibilities.
You’ve produced an excellent explanation of the what might have been a Savage 1911. What a strange world an alternate reality if there was no John Browning and no Colt 1911. Walt Kuleck speculates in his 1911 Owner’s Guide that the Savage’s harsh recoil is the result of the slide/barrel not remaining in battery until the bullet left the barrel.
The disassembly process is enough to discourage any military from adapting it, especially when compared to that of the 1911.
+Rik Raptor Yeah... Needing three hands with seven fingers each is not a great selling point.
+Rik Raptor It is not too bad for pistols of the time, but I do have to agree that the 1911 beats it for sure.
Seriously though, there are like 50 steps to disassembling this gun and none of them are that intuitive. I'd take a Colt 1911 any day.
+Rik Raptor How? The disassembly is simple and has only 1 small part to float around while a 1911 has 2. The Savage has no downside in it's disassembly really, and definitely not anything that would be negative for military use.
+Rik Raptor My thoughts also. What a pain in the (pick your appendage). :)
"And then a whole bunch of them got lost or destroyed under odd circumstances"
The Marines know nothing
Anonymous Marine: "It was probably for the best, whatever happened, I mean." (Walks away whistling)
Xo: so did you LOSE it or DESTROY it??
Marine: uhhh which gets me in LESS trouble? 😁
Numerous guns went missing during shipping to the US Army. I believe my source for that would be Hatcher's Notebook, but I can't be sure. Many guns, therefore, never made it to trials. A few lunchbox guns were also suspected.
+RyeOnHam Yeah, both Colt and Savage had to replace a few "missing" guns, with the presumption being that some got taken home. Which is probably where at least some of the never-refurbished Savage .45s came from.
Cool how the lanyard loop can fold in.
I just purchased Savage 1907 32acp, and I tried to disassemble it, when i was sliding off slide forward, it was stocking halfway, and was no way to slide it off. I looked trough few disassembling videos, and no one mentioned you have to hold trigger, while sliding slide off, until I watched your video.
I discovered after I took slide of, and released trigger, sharp pice of trigger mechanism, jumped up, which was up, when I tried to slide off, the slide, without holding trigger alway through.
Thank you!!!
P.S
I actually tried to pull trigger, just in case, the way like Glock guns disassembles, but didn’t hold it through, like you showed.
'...missing or destroyed under mysterious circumstances...'
Ahhh the good old days when a U.S. senator could so brazenly smuggle and deal in black market weapons on the side.
Good old days, you mean now?
@@therugburnz who is 'now'? Never heard this name. Don't call this number again.
Yeah, these days they only run prostitution rings out of their homes and sell influence.
You mean like this guy? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leland_Yee
"Fast And Furious" sees Hillary Clinton and other politicians running guns to Mexican cartels.
Someday, I hope that metal printing technology gets to where small production runs of guns like this one can be done for affordable prices.
WOW, three of those rare pistols on the same table!
Thanks Ian, I really enjoyed having an in-depth look at these interesting pistols. It's very clear after watching this just how superior the M1911 is to the Savage 45. I've read articles on the pistol trials before and it wasn't very clear as to why or how the M1911 won out other than reliability, ease of use, etc. This demonstrates the power of video and being able to see it rather than read about it. That said I think these are beautiful pistols and would see value in Savage taking another more modern attempt to improve its design for the consumer market. Let's face it there can never be too many 45 auto's on the market. :)
+William Hayden It's really a pity that .45 autos weren't in demand on the civilian market at all back then. If they were maybe Savage would've continued to develop their .45 pistol alongside its .32/.380 cousin.
And then the US Army probably would've bought some as secondary pistols during WW1, same way they did Colt and S&W .45 revolvers.
Would love for them to put a modern take on this on the market
@@justinreed9029 The production would probably be prohibitively expensive.
"...1911... Everyone familiar with...". Oh my no. Why I have begun watching this channel. I doubt I'll ever see a 1911 or any other handgun given that I live in England. But I do enjoy watch these videos!
Come visit the US, Adam! There are plenty of us who would be happy to take you to the target range with most any tool you'd be interested to try.
@@maxcactus7 if only! I went to New York when I was in college. But I'd love to visit more of the US. Mainly see as much of your car culture as possible. We have very few American imports here. It'd be great to see lots of muscle cars and go to a range!
Since watching this channel I have joined a local club here and done some shot gun shooting. Just clays. I've enjoyed that. Getting my firearms license is under way but it takes a long time and even then I certainly won't see hand gun's. So the 1911 will remain a mystery for now! :)
Actually, I had no idea about Savage and it's competition in US military trials with the 1911... until I started watching your videos. :D
Ian long as your here there will never be a forgotten weapon
I used to drool over this pistol. I have loved the .45 ACP round and it's pistols since I was a boy, sitting at my fathers knee and listening to him tell tales of his dealings with the bootleggers of the 30's. He told me of one man who had a farm near ours, his farm house was elegant as only a bootlegger could afford in those times, and hand a very beautiful fireplace with a wide solid walnut mantle. On the mantel; were his pistol's, all Model 1911's and stacks of magazines between the pistols, the middle of the mantle was stacked boxes of ammo. So it was, as soon as I got my FFL in the late 70's my first pistol (I didn't have a lot of money on a city patrolman's salary of $400.00 per month) was an Interarm's Silver Cup M1911A1 which was an old military surplus Remington slide on a frame built by Interarms and completed with surplus parts. She was a good old war horse and served me very well for many years. Eventually all the parkerizing wore off, and I polished her and put her in the bluing tanks to refinish her. I put in a nice skeletonized trigger and extended safety but that was about it. Carried her for many years and never failed to qualify near the top of the list on our quarterly qualification tests.
It's definitely an interesting built gun, and that disassembly and reassembly procedure could definitely be hard under stress. It's definitely something you wouldn't want to do out in the field.
Be careful
The best weapons channel, it is great what you learn here.
This man has some serious knowledge
Wow,..If I had ever bought one without getting schooled on take down I would never figure out how that thing came apart,... Thanks for showin that Ian...Very Cool !
They certainly did have an interesting look to them... I've honestly never have seen one of these... Not even in a book... I'm not sure how I overlooked them... Great Video!...
Thank you for showing reassembly.
Savage was right on the money with those "gills." They make for a much quieter firing firearm. I have a Model 87D .22 rifle and shooting it is not much louder than a CO2 pellet gun.
HI Ian, thanks for being awesome!
Ian you don't have no idea how much I enjoy this videos, everyday I join youtube an before going to bed I wach one of these videos. And I'm so dummy that I've just realized that I was not subscribed, now I am.
I've read on other videos that the audio changed and I can perceive that too, this video without any noise cancelling filter sounds much better.
I've watched you for close to a year now and have always been impressed with your knowledge and style of presentation. Keep up the good work!
seems like an effective and simple design. not sure why its not more popular.
interesting to see the similar improvements made by the contending pistols.....
savage should make a modern version
Ease of assembly and disassembly of his designs is one of the hallmarks of JMB. I'm far from an expert, but I could have taken down an reassembled my 1911 Colt several times in the time it took Ian to reassemble the 1911 Savage. The Savage didn't have a ghost of a chance of being adopted competing in a military trial with the Colt. I wouldn't mind having a Savage though!
Yeah I don't think it really matters.. it's not like your gonna be field stripping either in the heat of battle..and while the Browning design is easier to disassemble, the savage isn't so much harder that it really matters
Are these from your personal collection, Ian? How large is your personal collection (if you don't mind my asking)? And thanks for another great video, you are a firearms encyclopaedia with two legs and a ponytail.
+nomad8723 Ha! I wish! No, these belong to a friend of mine. My own collection is fairly extensive by most peoples' standards, but I have very few really expensive guns. Mostly things that are cheap because they are not widely appreciated. :)
+Forgotten Weapons Ian,now I'm curious about your collection,how about a video? pretty pleeeeeease?
+lefr33man Yes, he does. Works hard for his money and uses it to buy guns he finds interesting. Drives a 15-year-old Camry. :)
+TomasPabon You've already seen a bunch of my guns...and I would rather bring them out one or a few at a time and put them in proper context than do a video that's just a big mess of everything at once. Nothing to be gained from a video like that, except for people to render judgement on the collection as a whole and see if they have more or fewer guns than I do. Nothing useful will come of that...
+Forgotten Weapons OMG thanks for the reply,I understand that you'd rather compartmentalise the videos but you never really state which are yours in the vida so perhaps a playlist? anyway thanks for replying I'm a BIG fan so...I'll go geek out for a while now
Interesting vid, a bit of real history and fun to boot!
very nice pistol, I really like the old style bluing.... could you like make a video talking about the early bluing procces used by companies like colt savage, winchester remington, etc???
It's the same process as now. Hasnt changed much in 100 years. You just dont see it much anymore because it wear extremely fast and there are WAY better options now.
Superbly informative, as always, Ian. Being Canadian, access to pistols is tough without specific license. I inherited a 1911 Savage lever action 99 chambered in 30-30 and the pistols of that vintage have been of interest since seeing Jude Law use one in "Road to Perdition". Thank you for this and all your videos. I'd buy you a beer but thee current exchange rate...
Seems like an editing whoopsie about the refinishing?
+jagx234 I noticed that too. Accidentally left in some blooper footage, ha.
+jagx234 I'm guessing he did a little mid-video research.
+jagx234 Ah Thank God, I thought I was getting some serious Deja Vu :)
Love the design of these.
Rear sight and extractor in one piece, that´s an interesting design.
Great video, all of your videos are very interesting and informative!!
Nice video, and I think it would be interesting to own one of these guns knowing the history.
Very attractive pistols - although I can imagine doing a blind folded strip and assembly exercise!
Very cool. I would really like a video like this on the Iver Johnson safety auto revolvers. It would be really neat to see a video on those.
have .32 and used to have .380 ones, nice pistils. .45 would be cool
Wikipedia lists this pistols "locking" mechanism under the section limited utility in the article about blowback operation. This section also includes the Blish lock from the Tommy Gun.
I wasn't even aware of the 1911 model. Kind of a pity that large-bore semi-autos weren't really in demand on the civilian market back then, so that there'd be more than 5 of them and maybe it would actually be possible for me to own one.
After watching this twice, I realized that sight/retainer is very much like the spring retainer in a Daisy air rifle.
Very interesting and informative video; thanks for posting and sharing.
I’ve heard about the weapon, on earlier episodes of forgotten weapons. Apparently people thought that they were very promising I am perhaps should’ve been adopted instead of the 1911, but I have no idea why anyone would say another one of those things ? From what Ian said it sounds like it doesn’t really lock and therefore a lot of the gun powder is being used to make a fireball which is causing a lot of recoil but not really doing its job. I truly don’t understand even having the opinion that it’s in the same class as a very excellent very useful very accurate very well respected 1911 pistol (s)
If I were writing one of those "Alternate WWII history" themed novels one of the small details I would include would be to replace all the 1911s with this gun.
Looks clean simple and deadly
So Savage was the company that possibly pioneered the rotating barrel mechanism that now Beretta and Grand Power have revived
Yes and no. The Savage design is a delayed blowback. That of Beretta and Grand Power is a breechlock design (the barrel rethreat with the slide until it's unlocked) that derives from that of the Steyr 1912.
Ian, you should tell Othais to wave things around less on his channel so we can actually see what he's talking about, lol. Great video as always!
A new production Savage 1911 would be neat. Imagine that thing nickel plated. It would be a neat movie gun sort of thing.
parabéns pelo vídeo.
Seeing these tiny sights on the first model, it makes me wonder if anybody at Savage actually tried to aim with one of these guns.
+Jesus von Nazaret on a 10 yard range maybe? They really are awful.
+Jesus von Nazaret
Looking at old guns is also kinda like looking at the mentality behind the use of firearms at that time.
My dad has a Savage .32 and the sights are unusable
It doesn’t look like the barrel moves rearward with the slide at all during recoil. It only rotates?
Man, that is a pain to take down, and re-assemble!
Very awesome show
I'd sure hate to get a pebble stuck in that grip saftey. Reminds me of the major problem with the serpa holster. Some amount of debris can render it ineffective.
Question, which I had on watching the 1907-1915 video, wouldn’t it have been possible to accidentally hit the mag release during firing due to it’s position on the grip versus having a heel release or even a button release?
Great video once again!
Good vid 👍
Yeah, that re-assembly procedure under field conditions looks very awkward and problematic. And rapid reloads look impossible because dropping the empty mag is a two handed process, that is also a bit awkward. I can see why it never got adopted.
In the up coming 25/26 Feb. auction their are 31 pin fire items listed. PLEASE do a piece on how to date these.
Really interesting video would love to have one of those. Always find it funny what the gun manufacturers thought of sites back then. They are all tiny almost useless things and sharing the site with another part seems kind of crazy. But then again I imagine from other videos I've seen these were for up close kind of stuff anyway maybe more point shooting? Great video though thanks.
Looks awesome
Ian, why a lot of old pistols have such tiny sights?
+Antonello Prodomo because it was way before the invention of such lovely things as:
common sense
actually wanting to aim
wars that had longer ranges than 'the next trench over'
+Antonello Prodomo They tended to be used much more instinctively and close range, with the sights reserved for careful long shots. In that use, the small sights aren't all that bad; they allow good precision.
+Antonello Prodomo Large sights interfere with holstering and unholstering of the gun.
+Antonello Prodomo If you think those are tiny, you should see some of John Browning's handmade prototypes that barely even have a notch in the rear sight.
RedXlV
In that case the sights may have been place holders, not for serious purposes, and the prototypes were to test function of the weapons.
As with so many of the firearms shown on this channel, I would love to see a modern company reproduce this thing with just some minor changes. I think if you shortened the barrel/slide 2inches and polymered the lower you could have a really concealable, reliable, and lightweight .45 acp. I suppose they may want to improve the locking system though, and obviously that extractor with the sites built in won't be the best for accuracy.
Personally i think that is perhaps better looking pistol than Luger. Not as iconic or unique looking maybe, but it suits my taste.
that's a nice pistol.
Wait. Is that a stack-and-a-half mag? How many rounds do they hold?
10 rounds.
@@ForgottenWeapons Wow. It took, ~70 years and a lot of too-fat full double stack 1911s before HK duplicated the magazine format.
The design style of the slide makes me think this was designed with the same designer/design team as the savage 6 series .22 LR "gill" rifles. Also, the takedown process is similar in starting with taking something out of the rear of the tube body of the firearm. I suppose one would have to pour over some primary sources, if they exist, to figure out who the designers are for each gun.
They should remake this pistol today, with all necesary refinements. The 1907, that is.
A little bit more attention to the tricky bits of assembly (one piece rear sight & extractor) and subsequent manufacturing by Savage would have helped them greatly.
But more was to be made from the small calibre pocket model than from the relatively unknown .45acp which Colt was well ahead with...
If only it was a slightly double stacked magazine (10 shot) and the locking mechanism beefed up, it would have given Colt a run for its money!
I know Savage had big troubles with supplying these from scratch.
Additionally, I would have liked to know the background & value to these models ('07, '10 & '11) as they are exceptionally rare.
NRA museum?
Thanks for the show & tell.
That ain't a savage, you a savage bro! Great vid
It would be difficult to argue that the trial board got it wrong when they selected the 1911 but it is too bad Savage did not further refine the design and see if they could make a commercial success or win a foreign contract like with the Brits
A little late reply, however Savage sold many 1907 models in .32 ACP to the French during WWI (one of the many civilian .32 ACP pistols adopted during the war due to time constraint). It worked so well that the French used the same delayed blowback system for the MAB PA-15 in 9mm Luger, that so coupled the Savage system with a more modern slide design. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAB_PA-15_pistol
It is a savage to take apart and reassemble 😢
interesting that it has an external hammer that moves with the slide instead of being cocked by it.
It's because it's really a cocking lever that resembles an hammer. The Savage is really a striker fired pistol.
Yikes, that reassembly process!
I always found reassembling an M1911 a little bit fiddly, but that makes it look like nothing.
There's one on Gunbroker right now.
👍
Didn't these morph into the Astra pistols in 9 Largo?
Gee Ian I didn't see a cut, scrape, or bandage on any of your fingers or anything!
Ian, does the 1911 model again have the lighter 1907 model slide instead of the heavier slide used the 1910 model?
Or did i see that wrong? if so i guess that improvement did not work..
Are the main springs in all 3 models the same?
Looks like a Flash Gordon prop.
+Pepper Spray
Ian mentioned in a previous video about the styling.
Very much an _Art Deco_ like style, although _Art Deco_ itself wasn't really a thing until after 1914 or so...
You mentioned the refinishing twice
I doubt the rigorous test data the trials were providing them hurt the .32 and .380 model's development either.
Best agun. On world
Think about this, the grip safety could be done away with and install a recoil plate so springs or padding takes some of the recoil. Like anything, it could be perfected.
Trying to visualize a Doughboy field stripping one of these in the conditions prevalent on the Western front in WW1. Sometimes the gov't. gets it right. Well....not lately....
I know you've cleared it (and demonstrated as such) but it always makes me nervous when disassembly involves pushing on the front of the barrel and pulling the trigger.
😯😯👍👍👍 VERYGOOD sudyord I FROM THAILAND PATLUNG
9 1. 66
Hard to imagine to do the disassembly and assembly in muddy trench. Even Browning Colt 1911 has quite horrible disassembly, but this pistol trumps it... on military pistol it should be as easy as for example with Makarov PM..
Rear sight is part of the extractor? Weird.
I will also add these points to the conversation in general:
Ian is left handed. For fine motor skills stuff like this, I am too. Everything is backwards to intuition. Especially on things specifically designed for right-handed people. The Simpsons did a whole episode on the subject. So, this is going to look way worse than it actually probably is.
Next, development time and investment - Ian said that Savage's intent probably wasn't to actually win the contract, but to fund other programs - which they did, creating the 1915 and 1917 models. This was a trials gun.
People forget, it wasn't long after WWI, before we had a Model 1911A1, officially adopted in 1924.
This firearm never even made it to a full production model.
Lastly, I'll address the "It's too complicated for dumb soldiers" thing - while you certainly don't want your troops needing Swiss watch maker skills, and lots of parts...
Have any of you ever disassembled a MK XIX 40mm, fully automatic, belt-fed, grenade launcher? Or, even an archaic M-60? - Or... a Javelin missile weapons system used by the US Infantry?
How stupid do some of you think our Troops are?
Imagine trying to field strip and reassemble this thing in a trench at night!
When it's ten degrees and your being shelled
Great looking guns, but, the Colt does appear to be the no-brainer for the trials.
newdefsys That's because after the 1907 trials, Searle just made a few refinements to the Savage while Browning made extensive improvements to the Colt, to the point that it was practically an all-new design.
RedXlV It's true,
I am not one to complain about difficulty of disassembly and reassembly of handguns, but this was a ridiculously complicated takedown design. I mean its almost as if savage went out their way to make this complicated. That alone could have lost the contract lol. This was probably a time when handgun owners didn't wine about complicated weapons as much as they do now though. Now they complain about the 1911 takedown, imagine if they were forced to use these lol
these look a lot cooler than the muh 1911.
Thank God the military actually does trials and doesn't adopt things based on what looks the coolest. Aside from the recoil and questionable lockup, assembly/disassembly looks to be much more difficult. I am not a 1911 fan but it is obviously a superior handgun.
@@boomerisadog3899 Like the 1911, this is an antique. We judge antiques for aesthetic value.
@@morganb.3430 I find the 1911 more aesthetically pleasing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all.
Why have tilt barrel pistols not the recoil spring around the barrel? Is there some problem with this?
If you're asking why have a locking mechanism instead of just recoil operated (which I think you are) the way I understand if it's that larger calibers like the 45 do not handle recoil operation all that well. It is more suited for 9mm and below, as I understand. However I could be wrong.
+Matt Gent
no
Ian, do you know what made the Lugar lose to the m1911? Just wondering because the Lugar is an excellent handgun itself.
+Necro DWM (the company that was manufacturing Lugers) didn't want to spend the money to make a semi-production run of 200 guns in .45 ACP for the US field trials. The .45 required completely new tooling compared to the 7.65mm and 9mm guns, and the Germany Army had just adopted the Luger in 1908. DWM deemed it not worthwhile to put in the expense for US guns. The US had a pretty small military, nothing like today, and a US military contract wasn't worth the risk and effort compared to contracts for European powers like Germany.
+Forgotten Weapons Given that they were busy building the Luger for the German military at the time, and the fact there was no guarantee that they would win the trials, almost certainly the correct choice on DWM's part.
Still makes for a interesting what if, no?
+Lafeel Abriel Its still a fantastically iconic weapon none the less. That weapon is a piece of art!
The Browning design would have won, more reliable and simple.
Also betting that a lot of it is that the U.S. would prefer not to have a foreign made gun, and thus naturally favored the local product.