Sorry to say, but if one wants to maintain the 70/30 grind, equal grinding is what one should do (same amount of strokes on each side). I don't usually disagree with you, and I might catch flack from some viewers, so look at it this way, If one accidentally had a 60/40 grind on a knife that was supposed to be 50/50, one wouldn't be able to center the edge by grinding evenly on both sides, as that wouldn't change the ratio. Thanks for the video.
I though EXACTLY the same thing. I’m glad someone else is saying this. I apply the same amount of strokes on BOTH sides of the blade-edge, and simply use a very acute angle on the inside -side (the right side of the blade as I would hold it to cut, being a right handed user), and sharpen a more obtuse angle on the outside-side. So basically I’m sharpening my Japanese-steels (AS, A#2, S#1, and S#2) with an asymmetrical bevel (the cutting edge) as follows: Inside-side = approx. 10’ Outside-side = approx. 15’ As most all Japanese knives are already asymmetrical in respect to their grind (to varying degrees), even if the bevel is sharpened to 50:50, there is zero reason to sharpen less or more times on a particular side - I think this is just another way to accomplish the same outcome, just like there are many ways to sharpen. Am I wrong here - I think not?!
How does that make sense? If you grind 30% of the surface area the same amount as you grind 70% of the surface area your going to end up removing more material from the side with smaller surface area! If you want to keep a 30/70 it needs to be ground 30/70 and not 50/50.
@@a.lame.username. Say what? It's just the opposite. When you're grinding the 70 side, a greater amount of surface area is in contact with the stone than if you're grinding the 30 side, so you're taking off more material per stroke. If you magnify the difference by doing more strokes on the 70 side than the 30 side, you're going to gradually push the apex to the left. I see no reason why the edge ratio should be reflected in the stroke ratio. The difference in the bevel *angles* could have a small effect, but the angle ratio is not the same thing as the edge ratio and cannot be inferred fom it.
Hi ryky I have just had the pleasure of using the the masamoto gyuto for the first time it's very sharp and nimble in your hand it just glides thru cutting the vegetables and excellent tutorial thanks
Are both primary and secondary bevels asymmetric? I mean, the cutting bevels (secondary bevel?) are 70/30 but what about the rest of the grinded parts (primary bevels) of the blade? If you reprofile the cutting edge (secondary bevel) to get a symmetric edge, are the remaining parts of the blade (primary bevels) like in a 50/50 edge blade?
Could you explain why you wouldn't stroke the same number of times on each side? How do you get from the fact that the edge ratio is 70/30 (right side is wider than left side) to the idea that you should stroke the sides in the same ratio? I don't understand the logic in that AT ALL. If you use the same number of strokes on each side (as you would with a 50/50), you're going to take more material off the right than the left naturally because the surface area is greater. Why would you want to magnify the difference? Why wouldn't what you're doing push the apex leftward over time? The difference in the bevel *angles* could have a small effect, but the angle ratio is not the same thing as the edge ratio and cannot be inferred fom it.
what does the deburring method and ratio have to do with the 70/30 angle sharpening ratio when deburing strokes are meant to remove the burr anyway you do it as long as you do it enough times ( never enough apparently) and the sharpening angle is another story? I mean what i find most important and i haven't seen you point out is how to determine the sharpening angle on each side of this asimetric knife, beacuse obviously when you have 70/30, 60/40, 90/10 or 80/20 ratio, wich is common for japanese knifes, you must sharpen each side on that particular angle, otherwise you compromise the way that knife cuts and edge, if you do not sharpen it exactly as it was as new ! So how do you determine that angle on each side ? I have the Tojiro Shirogami Kurouchi Gyutoh 210mm ( as on your webstore) and eventhough every info i have about the ratio of this knife ( including the description of the item on your site) it states that it's 50/50 when in reality i find the ratio of the knife being 60/40 or even 70/30 as it is hard for one to determine the sharpening angle at this point!
You just sharpen at the same angle it has from the factory. You do that by feel. You cannot infer the angle ratio from the edge ratio, and I've never seen a knife description state the angle ratio.
Not sure why you need to count the strokes if you get the geometry right after 19 or 47 strokes? It's all about getting the burr after you have the geometry aligned on each side.
Since your knife is 30 on the left and 70 on the right, would this classify as a right handed knife? I just bought a right handed gyutou and the 70 side is on the left face of the knife so Im a bit confused...
I'm not so sure that you are correct about taking off more on the 70 side then 30 side I'm no knife expert but I excell at geometry, I think what you need to do is adjust the grinding angle, I just got my yaxell today and it is a 70/30 hence the reason I searched your videos, that angle on the 30 side is higher than that of the 70 side which makes sense actually because if the angles are the same degree then the knife would be symmetric. aka 50/50
@Gus I agree with you. I think it's probably better to just set your sharpening angle differently depending on which side you are working on. You probably don't need to do a different number of strokes. I'm sure that Riky's sensibility and experience will make the difference so he is able to achieve an excellent result even with an uneven number of strokes for the 2 sides of the blade.
I think the underlying confusion is whether the angle is asymmetric, or the long axis of the tip is asymmetric with respect to the long axis of the blade. I think the latter, since as I understand it the entire blade itself is designed so that the cut happens on one specific side of the blade. That means that you can have the same angle on both sides, but if you take off more material from one side that moves the tip toward the proper side of the blade (one side has a curvature that will "glide" better, while the other side "ejects" better.) So no adjustment of the angle is necessary, and simply taking more off one side in the appropriate ratio will move the tip. Having said all that, it does seem like doing equal strokes on each side should keep the existing asymmetry once it is established - but I may be wrong - this is all very confusing.
@@Burrfection ryky, just got an enso 5.5 prep and when i look down the edge of the blade it definitely looks asymmetrical even though the website says 50/50....can you confirm?
To know if you achieved a 70/30 bevel cut a piece of paper and if the first stroke curved a bit before it cut through then you have achieved the desired bevel.
Check the website of the merchant/manufacturer, if they don’t specify it’s generally safe to assume 50/50 (which I believe is the case for both of those)
Hey Ricky, I just got a Masamoto VG and noticed the 70/30 grind after looking at - this video was super helpful on learning the best way to keep it sharp! Quick question, I have a couple traditional whetstones (800, 1000, 3000, 6000 grit), but they're nothing special. Do you have any recommendations on your favorite stones for sharpening? Thanks!
This is a great video! I have a similar knife (Tojiro DP) and I wish I had watched this before I sharpened it... This is way simpler than the trial and error it took. One question though: what angle were you holding for this? 12-15 degree angle?
do you have a video tutorial on just absolute knife sharpening basics? there are a lot of terms that i have had to research on my own that would make it way easier for your viewers if you could just go over the terminology (ie: burr, stropping, etc) and an entry level setup. i've been getting really interested in learning more about knife sharpening videos but i think i've wasted days now trying to figure out my basic setup...
Youre making this to complicated. You don"t need to count any strokes. The surface area of the bevel on the right side is larger than than of the other side so all you need to do is keep that in mind. Do you think the creators of these knives in Japan were worried about ratios, no they are not. Anyway, you have a loyal group of followers so I'll say no more, only to finish by saying that of all the asymmetrical knives that I have worked on, I have never counted strokes.
Awesome, this video is great for understanding how to sharpen an asymmetrical knife. I have a question. Oftentimes I read that one reason Japanese knives are so sharp is because they are asymmetrical, but why is this so? Is it really true that a 70/30 knife is always sharper than a 50/50 knife?
not ALWAYS. it really depends on the sharpener, and knife's overall profile. in theory, the 70/30 may be sharper, because it can be sharpened to a lower cutting angle. that's why we see true yanigibas having a 100/0 or single bevel grind. i suppose it's time for another comparison video.....
hello burrfection, I'm brazilian big fan of your videos, but I do not understand much, what's the difference between sharpening a 50/50 or 70/30 knife? only the angle of cut? would a 50/50 knife not cut easier or just change the angle of the cut?
honestly, a 50/50 knife will cut just as good as a 70/30 knife. the most important is how the knife feels in your hand, and if it suites your needs. i don't care at all if a knife is 70/30 .
@filipe The asymmetrical grind is probably aimed at giving to not-so-hard steels a better sharpness. For example, you could have a 12° grind to one side (30%) and a much, much, MUCH less angled grind to the "70% side" of the blade instead of giving a 16° grind to both sides. The degrees I wrote were chosen just to give you an idea. The 70% grind-side (less angled) will help the other side to keep the edge for longer periods of time. With a harder steel you can have both sides sharpened at... say 14°, with the same level of edge retention. The extreme version of asymmetrical bevel blades are single-bevel blades (100%-0%). On those blades you have an extreme degree grind to one side (100%) and no bevel at all to the other side (0%). If you grinded both sides at that extreme degree you would have an "a lot shorter" edge retention.
30% of the total angle on one side and 70% of the total angle on the other side 10,5+24,5 degrees it's a 35 degree angle on the knife, lower side should probably look thinner than the other i'm just assuming things though.
maybe I don't know anything about kitchen knives, maybe, but I'm sceptical as to whether the microbevel at the edge of an asymmetric knife is also asymmetric. I'm 76% sure that the 70/30 is only descriptive of the primary bevels and not the cutting edge itself. The angle subtended by the edge should still be the same as a symmetrically ground knife, even if the profile of the edge leans to the fatter side, or has a facet which is longer than its opposite, unless you purposefully grind the edge finer out of preference there shouldn't be a difference in cutting capacity when compared with any other double bevel knife with similar thickness and profile. but what do I know :>?
Not sure why they would put a 70/30 grind on a western style knife....On a JP knife for prepping Sushi sure...just like using a 90/10 grind on a Yanigaba...
Because an asymmetrical bevel allows the inside blade edge to cut better (be more sharp), and the outside blade edge acts as more or less of a support for the inside edge, keeping it from folding over as quickly and easily and causes food to release from the blade more easily. - So increased overall perceived sharpness - Increased blade resilience to dulling - Promotes the release of food when cutting. Basically, it’s like a SBK-light but without the curving of the cut (assuming one is not employing proper straight SBK cutting techniques.
Sorry to say, but if one wants to maintain the 70/30 grind, equal grinding is what one should do (same amount of strokes on each side). I don't usually disagree with you, and I might catch flack from some viewers, so look at it this way, If one accidentally had a 60/40 grind on a knife that was supposed to be 50/50, one wouldn't be able to center the edge by grinding evenly on both sides, as that wouldn't change the ratio. Thanks for the video.
I though EXACTLY the same thing. I’m glad someone else is saying this. I apply the same amount of strokes on BOTH sides of the blade-edge, and simply use a very acute angle on the inside
-side (the right side of the blade as I would hold it to cut, being a right handed user), and sharpen a more obtuse angle on the outside-side.
So basically I’m sharpening my Japanese-steels (AS, A#2, S#1, and S#2) with an asymmetrical bevel (the cutting edge) as follows:
Inside-side = approx. 10’
Outside-side = approx. 15’
As most all Japanese knives are already asymmetrical in respect to their grind (to varying degrees), even if the bevel is sharpened to 50:50, there is zero reason to sharpen less or more times on a particular side - I think this is just another way to accomplish the same outcome, just like there are many ways to sharpen.
Am I wrong here - I think not?!
@@Chihuahuauno1 I am going to try that, I've been sticking with 50/50, same angle (12° ). I like your idea.
How does that make sense? If you grind 30% of the surface area the same amount as you grind 70% of the surface area your going to end up removing more material from the side with smaller surface area!
If you want to keep a 30/70 it needs to be ground 30/70 and not 50/50.
@@a.lame.username. how does one correct an accidental 60/40 grind ?
@@a.lame.username. Say what? It's just the opposite. When you're grinding the 70 side, a greater amount of surface area is in contact with the stone than if you're grinding the 30 side, so you're taking off more material per stroke. If you magnify the difference by doing more strokes on the 70 side than the 30 side, you're going to gradually push the apex to the left. I see no reason why the edge ratio should be reflected in the stroke ratio. The difference in the bevel *angles* could have a small effect, but the angle ratio is not the same thing as the edge ratio and cannot be inferred fom it.
Hi ryky I have just had the pleasure of using the the masamoto gyuto for the first time it's very sharp and nimble in your hand it just glides thru cutting the vegetables and excellent tutorial thanks
right on. glad you had a chance to play with one. you planning on getting one?
Burrfection I should've made myself more clear I purchased one based on your reviews and very happy with it from a distributor in uk London
ahh... right on. cool, i'm glad you are enjoying it. stay in touch.
use flatening stone and round the edges of main stone it prevents mistakes if hand twitch or // so just get angles to 45 vs 90 degree
Are both primary and secondary bevels asymmetric? I mean, the cutting bevels (secondary bevel?) are 70/30 but what about the rest of the grinded parts (primary bevels) of the blade? If you reprofile the cutting edge (secondary bevel) to get a symmetric edge, are the remaining parts of the blade (primary bevels) like in a 50/50 edge blade?
Your math skills are killing me.
Could you explain why you wouldn't stroke the same number of times on each side? How do you get from the fact that the edge ratio is 70/30 (right side is wider than left side) to the idea that you should stroke the sides in the same ratio? I don't understand the logic in that AT ALL. If you use the same number of strokes on each side (as you would with a 50/50), you're going to take more material off the right than the left naturally because the surface area is greater. Why would you want to magnify the difference? Why wouldn't what you're doing push the apex leftward over time? The difference in the bevel *angles* could have a small effect, but the angle ratio is not the same thing as the edge ratio and cannot be inferred fom it.
what does the deburring method and ratio have to do with the 70/30 angle sharpening ratio when deburing strokes are meant to remove the burr anyway you do it as long as you do it enough times ( never enough apparently) and the sharpening angle is another story? I mean what i find most important and i haven't seen you point out is how to determine the sharpening angle on each side of this asimetric knife, beacuse obviously when you have 70/30, 60/40, 90/10 or 80/20 ratio, wich is common for japanese knifes, you must sharpen each side on that particular angle, otherwise you compromise the way that knife cuts and edge, if you do not sharpen it exactly as it was as new ! So how do you determine that angle on each side ? I have the Tojiro Shirogami Kurouchi Gyutoh 210mm ( as on your webstore) and eventhough every info i have about the ratio of this knife ( including the description of the item on your site) it states that it's 50/50 when in reality i find the ratio of the knife being 60/40 or even 70/30 as it is hard for one to determine the sharpening angle at this point!
You just sharpen at the same angle it has from the factory. You do that by feel. You cannot infer the angle ratio from the edge ratio, and I've never seen a knife description state the angle ratio.
Is it possible go see whether or not it's an asymmetrical grind, or should you research the knife?
Not sure why you need to count the strokes if you get the geometry right after 19 or 47 strokes? It's all about getting the burr after you have the geometry aligned on each side.
you sound like an expert. why are you watching a basic knife sharpening tutorial?
Since your knife is 30 on the left and 70 on the right, would this classify as a right handed knife? I just bought a right handed gyutou and the 70 side is on the left face of the knife so Im a bit confused...
The one you got is left handed
I'm not so sure that you are correct about taking off more on the 70 side then 30 side I'm no knife expert but I excell at geometry, I think what you need to do is adjust the grinding angle, I just got my yaxell today and it is a 70/30 hence the reason I searched your videos, that angle on the 30 side is higher than that of the 70 side which makes sense actually because if the angles are the same degree then the knife would be symmetric. aka 50/50
i'm sure you are 100% right.
Yeah, 70 side lower angle, 30 side higher angle.
@Gus I agree with you. I think it's probably better to just set your sharpening angle differently depending on which side you are working on. You probably don't need to do a different number of strokes.
I'm sure that Riky's sensibility and experience will make the difference so he is able to achieve an excellent result even with an uneven number of strokes for the 2 sides of the blade.
I think the underlying confusion is whether the angle is asymmetric, or the long axis of the tip is asymmetric with respect to the long axis of the blade. I think the latter, since as I understand it the entire blade itself is designed so that the cut happens on one specific side of the blade. That means that you can have the same angle on both sides, but if you take off more material from one side that moves the tip toward the proper side of the blade (one side has a curvature that will "glide" better, while the other side "ejects" better.) So no adjustment of the angle is necessary, and simply taking more off one side in the appropriate ratio will move the tip. Having said all that, it does seem like doing equal strokes on each side should keep the existing asymmetry once it is established - but I may be wrong - this is all very confusing.
Ryky, the Enso HD chefs knife I got form cutleryandmore says it is a 50/50 bevel but the grind looks more like a 70/30, can you confirm this?
will look into it when i get back in town in a few days.
@@Burrfection ryky, just got an enso 5.5 prep and when i look down the edge of the blade it definitely looks asymmetrical even though the website says 50/50....can you confirm?
I love Ryky, but he has some major arithmetic problems.
such is life
7:54 the knife was like hihi that tickled
To know if you achieved a 70/30 bevel cut a piece of paper and if the first stroke curved a bit before it cut through then you have achieved the desired bevel.
How can I know if 50/50 or 70/30, I don’t found information about this ! For example tojiro dp are 50/50? And yaxell Damascus? Thank you
Check the website of the merchant/manufacturer, if they don’t specify it’s generally safe to assume 50/50 (which I believe is the case for both of those)
My Tojiro Shirogami #2 F809 210mm Gyutoh has 60/40 ratio, eventhough merchants (burrfection store included) are promoting them as 50/50 ratio 😏
Hey Ricky, I just got a Masamoto VG and noticed the 70/30 grind after looking at - this video was super helpful on learning the best way to keep it sharp! Quick question, I have a couple traditional whetstones (800, 1000, 3000, 6000 grit), but they're nothing special. Do you have any recommendations on your favorite stones for sharpening? Thanks!
In December, Ryky produced about four? videos on his favorite stones for 2018.
I'm verry curious how did you find the right angle on each side to sharpen it watching this video ??
This is a great video! I have a similar knife (Tojiro DP) and I wish I had watched this before I sharpened it... This is way simpler than the trial and error it took. One question though: what angle were you holding for this? 12-15 degree angle?
probably. i never bother with angles. check out my videos in my Tutorials / Demo playlist and you'll see how i get my sharpening angles
do you have a video tutorial on just absolute knife sharpening basics? there are a lot of terms that i have had to research on my own that would make it way easier for your viewers if you could just go over the terminology (ie: burr, stropping, etc) and an entry level setup.
i've been getting really interested in learning more about knife sharpening videos but i think i've wasted days now trying to figure out my basic setup...
Asimetric knifes require different angle sharpening on each side according to the knife's ratio. Does not apply using 50/50 angle ratio.
Youre making this to complicated. You don"t need to count any strokes. The surface area of the bevel on the right side is larger than than of the other side so all you need to do is keep that in mind. Do you think the creators of these knives in Japan were worried about ratios, no they are not. Anyway, you have a loyal group of followers so I'll say no more, only to finish by saying that of all the asymmetrical knives that I have worked on, I have never counted strokes.
you the man
Awesome, this video is great for understanding how to sharpen an asymmetrical knife.
I have a question. Oftentimes I read that one reason Japanese knives are so sharp is because they are asymmetrical, but why is this so? Is it really true that a 70/30 knife is always sharper than a 50/50 knife?
not ALWAYS. it really depends on the sharpener, and knife's overall profile. in theory, the 70/30 may be sharper, because it can be sharpened to a lower cutting angle. that's why we see true yanigibas having a 100/0 or single bevel grind. i suppose it's time for another comparison video.....
Lol, sweet, your comparison videos are always fun to watch.
Cuánto cuesta un cuchillo así
Ryky, being a 70/30 grind, can this knife be used left handed?
yes. of course.
thanks for the response. keep up the good work man. i dig your content. i'm starting to get into Japanese knives and your channel is helping big time.
hello burrfection, I'm brazilian big fan of your videos, but I do not understand much, what's the difference between sharpening a 50/50 or 70/30 knife? only the angle of cut? would a 50/50 knife not cut easier or just change the angle of the cut?
honestly, a 50/50 knife will cut just as good as a 70/30 knife. the most important is how the knife feels in your hand, and if it suites your needs. i don't care at all if a knife is 70/30 .
Burrfection thank you so mutch
Burrfection to sharpen the left side of the knife in your opinion would it be better to change your hand or keep it?
@filipe The asymmetrical grind is probably aimed at giving to not-so-hard steels a better sharpness. For example, you could have a 12° grind to one side (30%) and a much, much, MUCH less angled grind to the "70% side" of the blade instead of giving a 16° grind to both sides. The degrees I wrote were chosen just to give you an idea.
The 70% grind-side (less angled) will help the other side to keep the edge for longer periods of time.
With a harder steel you can have both sides sharpened at... say 14°, with the same level of edge retention.
The extreme version of asymmetrical bevel blades are single-bevel blades (100%-0%). On those blades you have an extreme degree grind to one side (100%) and no bevel at all to the other side (0%). If you grinded both sides at that extreme degree you would have an "a lot shorter" edge retention.
But how do you determine the angle? It must be different on the 30 and the 70 side, but you do not explain that..?
Angle is the same on Both sides,
@@simonvolsmann So, that's only possible if the edge is not in the centre of the blade right?
@@simonvolsmann Are you sure? Not according to many other videos I saw.. If the angle is the same it means the cutting edge is off-centre right?
@@simonvolsmann I have a masamoto vg and its not the same angle.
30% of the total angle on one side and 70% of the total angle on the other side
10,5+24,5 degrees it's a 35 degree angle on the knife, lower side should probably look thinner than the other
i'm just assuming things though.
maybe I don't know anything about kitchen knives, maybe, but I'm sceptical as to whether the microbevel at the edge of an asymmetric knife is also asymmetric. I'm 76% sure that the 70/30 is only descriptive of the primary bevels and not the cutting edge itself. The angle subtended by the edge should still be the same as a symmetrically ground knife, even if the profile of the edge leans to the fatter side, or has a facet which is longer than its opposite, unless you purposefully grind the edge finer out of preference there shouldn't be a difference in cutting capacity when compared with any other double bevel knife with similar thickness and profile.
but what do I know :>?
this is a very good question. are there not two bevels?
the instructions that came with my VG said to sharpen either 5:5 or 6:4.
OK, just saw a vid where a master sharpener said to remove the micro bevel for best results.
do you think it's a good idea to reprofile a knife like this to give it an equal bevel???
it depends on personal preference. i'm not going to, because i don't have the time, but for people who want the ease of sharpening a 50/50 knife, yes.
Ricky, you realize that the top left window covers your face and I'm not sure the purpose of that window since it's static.
Not sure why they would put a 70/30 grind on a western style knife....On a JP knife for prepping Sushi sure...just like using a 90/10 grind on a Yanigaba...
Because an asymmetrical bevel allows the inside blade edge to cut better (be more sharp), and the outside blade edge acts as more or less of a support for the inside edge, keeping it from folding over as quickly and easily and causes food to release from the blade more easily.
- So increased overall perceived sharpness
- Increased blade resilience to dulling
- Promotes the release of food when cutting.
Basically, it’s like a SBK-light but without the curving of the cut (assuming one is not employing proper straight SBK cutting techniques.