Measuring The Room's Response : Building A Studio Pt. 4
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- Опубліковано 13 січ 2022
- ➡️➡️Learn more about Testing Room Response here: producelikeapro.com/blog/meas...
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➡️➡️Watch the other videos in our Building A Studio series here: • Build A New Studio
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Gear Used:
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Today, we have another video looking at our progress with our new studio build!
We are changing a small kids bedroom into a studio, and showing you guys every step in our process so you can build a studio too.
Our friend Gavin Haverstick from Haverstick Designs is joining us to help with the acoustic design of our room and passed along his tips and tricks to share with you! Gavin is testing the room's response to see if what we have so far will work for our room.
Check out the gear used to test the room below:
1. Omnidirectional Microphones
Earthworks M30 is a FIRST-CLASS reference microphone. Use it with your audio-band measurement system to get honest results, so you can tune accordingly. The difference between the omnidirectional mic's and regular mic's is that the omnidirectional mic's can find really high frequencies.
DBX RTA-M is a more affordable alternative to the Earthworks M30. The RTA-M is a real-time analyzer microphone for the DriveRack PA. Flat frequency response, super-accurate omnidirectional mic.
2. Testing Sound (through a laptop)
Sound Devices USB Pre 2 has a really low noise floor and is great for really low noise measurements. It is built really well, so it is also great for people who will need to travel with it. Borrowing the same award-winning microphone preamplifiers found on their 744T digital portable interface, the Sound Devices USBPre 2 provides one of the highest quality portable interfaces available for both Mac and Windows computers. The USBPre 2 is equipped with a pair of fully discrete, transistor-based XLR inputs and impressively lucid 24-bit converters that are capable of up to 192kHz sample rates.
3. Testing Sound Application
RødeTest FuzzMeasure is an audio and acoustic measurement tool to produce, analyze, and publish beautiful graphs. It delivers a comprehensive suite of features for professionals in research, acoustics, live sound, room design, and pro audio. By combining sophisticated technology with an elegant user interface, FuzzMeasure offers an unparalleled experience.
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Have you measured your room's response? Did you do additional treatment? Please let us know below!
I had a build up at 50 hz. Once that was fixed, flat from 30 hz to 20khz within 2 db total. Couldn't ask for more than that!
Yes, but I'm going to get a decent measurement mic, I've used a studio condenser mic with omni mode to get a picture, but not to make decisions.
I love the series, thanks alot!
Hi Warren. I measured my room using REW both with & without treatment, the differance was massive, i have now installed 2no 600mm x 1200mm x 100mm thick clouds above the mix point and noted that although they did not affect the dip i'm getting at 90Hz they did improve the stereo field. i'm now designing and building additional absorbsion for the Door (Already have 4 layers of Mass Loaded Rubber inplace (Very heavy door now)) as my Right speaker is firing straight at that in a similar way to your studio, as Gavin says this is Fun experimenting. Look forward to the next installment of your studio build.
Yes, One thing I've learnt is it's not just about freq response , but whats just as important, is room decay..
Measured mine and added bass traps and diffusion where possible. It’s not perfect but mixes seem to translate pretty well.
I want this guy's job soooo bad! Fine tuning frequencies in different rooms all day? Oh yeah, sign me up!!
Haha indeed!
Thanks for the comment. I definitely enjoy what I do for a living. It was the perfect combination for my mechanical engineering degree and my passion for music. Have a great day!
@@haverstickdesigns thanks Gavin! You Rock!
It's always fascinating wathcing people who are really good at what they do, even if I don't understand much of it.
The reference sound pressure for calibrating audio stuff is 1 Pascal, which equals to a sound pressure level of 94 dB SPL, so that's the reason :) that's also why, on microphones charts, you usually see the reported sensitivity referred to a 1 kHz tone at 94 dB SPL or at 1 Pa.
Thanks ever so much for sharing
Thank you for sharing your process Warren and crew. About 3 years ago, I went on a similar journey to you (dealing with real world problems, making a space comfortable, but also have enough treatment). It was helpful to see you do the end-to-end process and learn a few new things on the way.
Hey Warren, try temporarily removing the accordion doors and hang another sound curtain. This would still behave like a bass trap but allow you to keep the storage space of the closet.😎
Even better to have an absorber in front while the closet acts as an air gap. There was some talk about a gobo style thingy? That´s the place!
Love this series! It just keeps getting better and better with SUCH good knowledge bombs.
Thanks ever so much Lee!
After watching this awesome educational video. I went and looked at my calibration that I did with Sonarworks SoundiD and mine looked a little bit like yours Warren. Same scenario with different dips and peaks with right and left in the low end in almost the same areas. Thought that was funny. SoundiD does a great job of fixing issues. What I took away from this is no room is completely perfect. You must spend the time and effort to learn your monitors and room. Thank you for doing this it gives me more reinsurance that if I keep working hard, I'll continue to improve........
Thank you Warren and Sweetwater
Thanks ever so much Andy!
The joy of getting excited about a studio setup despite not being for yourself!
Haha thanks Jonas!
@@Producelikeapro love the channel!
Very encouraging. I am in a the end phase of my studio build. Looking forward to trying these tests soon.
Fantastic! Thanks for your great comment
Hey Warren! I’ve watched a LOT of tutorials, tips & tricks etcetera on UA-cam, but I always find myself coming back to your channel as it is honest, warm and very informative for us new in the industry.
Would be a dream to join you producing, recording and mixing a song in real life.
Thank you, ever so much, hugs from Sweden 🤗
Very nice! Room response is foundational to good sound. Can’t wait for the follow up. It will be interesting to see what can practically be done with the room. 🍻
Thanks ever so much!! It's a lot of fun doing these videos and the room is coming along great!
Really enjoyed watching this series Warren, very interesting & educational. Great job, thanks for sharing the journey!
Thanks ever so much
Wow! I love the data, I’m definitely an analyst. 200-400hz response is really good, and over time I’m sure you will find some tweaks that will work to even flatten response even more! Great video too.
Thanks ever so much Eric!
Glad you guys did this video. It’s so true a correct response for people working at home in studios. Given what’s happening in the market and economy working from home is a realistic option for a lot of professionals to still build a business.
Thanks ever so much Miguel!
This is such a great help! Thank you so very much! Going to change rooms soon and this is great information!
Thanks ever so much Michael!
Really like this content 👍🏻 looking forward to chapter 2 🙌🏻 thanks Warren
Thanks ever so much
The build up of things is always exciting… 👍
Thanks Azlan!
Best video yet!!!!! Thank you Warren i may need to join the community
Wow! Thanks ever so much Ed!!
Great video!
Thanks. Once I get a ref mic I will have a go at more treatments. I live 5 mins walk from a great sawmill and they will make up a frame, with proper dovetails, quite cheaply.
Assuming that you have a laptop or desktop computer, pick up a *miniDSP UMIK-1* or *Dayton Audio UMM-6* USB measurement microphone with a calibration file and download the Free *RoomEQ Wizard* (REW) measurement software. Or use the aforementioned DBX RTA-M XLR mic with your audio interface and REW. If you have at least a 2-channel Audio Interface with 2 phantom powered XLR mic preamps you can set up a loop-back to do IR measurements.
Very informative!
Great information Warren 👍🏾. There’s some good stuff I can nick here 😎. I look forward to seeing if the sub fills out low end dip. If it does improve it, it would also be great to understand how you do the crossover (I’ve struggled with that), and I would also advise to be sure to do an actual listening test for how frequency response sounds with known music, with and without the sub and crossover. I currently have the Shape Twins , but previously had the 65’s and have preferred both without the sub (with high crossovers).
Thanks 🙏🏾
Thanks ever so much Mike! Excited too!
Learned so much from this video. Awesome thanks
You’re very welcome!
good to see you do this. REW modeling vs actual placement is reasonably close so you can play a bit with speaker placement in the app before moving things for better tuning. You can take some of that window fabric and hang a piece doubled or tripled up on the door to tame that corner a bit, or make a pillow with it and put some fiberglass 403 or similar in it. Staying at 1-2" thick your door will work and it'll help take down those reflections a bit :)
Working with Kali LP6's in a treated room and it translates really well! It took a few steps after I moved here but I'm really happy where I am at now.
Thanks ever so much for sharing
I know Gavin. Great guy; knows his stuff. We worked together for our studio at Minor Prophet and with the Indiana Guitar Show. Two thumbs up!
That’s wonderful to hear! We love Gavin
Gavin & Haverstick Designs are the best!!!!
We love what Gavin does! So easy to talk to! Zero ego!
Great timing for me to see this. So much practical and useful information. I'm setting up my own studio; am about to make my own sound proofing. I'll run these tests before and after I set it all up.
Do you mean you're about to make acoustic panels? Soundproofing deals with how the room is actually physically constructed.
@@brandonwilliams966 you're right, I'm not making sound proofing, I'm making acoustic panels. I'm reducing reflections, not trying to prevent sound travelling from other places.
Thanks Simon! Best of luck with your new studio!
@@Producelikeapro thanks!
Awesome content
check the distance of your speaker to the wall. If the distance is around 90cm then that could explain the 95hz deep.
Super informative. Thanks!
You’re very welcome
I added a few $k of treatment to my "less than ideal" room. Got it as best as I could with decay times and frequency response. Then purchased Dirac Live to do the last bit of correction. Due to putting myself is a sort of "alcove" type arrangement, I had bass buildup that trapping wouldn't get rid of. I re-measured my whole setup with Dirac running, and my response it +/- 3 db up through 1khz. (I turn off the eq above 1khz.)
Same. 🙂 I use a miniDSP C-DSP 8x12 DIRAC Live processor in my high-end car audio system as well. Game changer.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Watched all four videos. I'm about to embark on this journey myself.
Sonarworks is not the only software option. It might be worthwhile to compare different calibration software while you're setting up different speakers. Neumann happens to have their own software for the their DSP monitors.
Thank you as always 🙏🏻
Absolutely! That’s why I built the room!
This is helpful. Thank you. 🤘
Thanks ever so much
Glad to be able to help
@@Producelikeapro Do you think the PreSonus Eris Sub 8 is a good option to pair with Kali LP6s for home studio mixing? I need something to better monitor sub bass. (I currently use the LP6s, no sub) Other options I'm considering are open back headphones or use sonarworks soundID to correct some room issues. I can't hang treatment in the current space and would appreciate any advice you can give. Thanks.
Really enjoying this series. Would love to see some testing of the speaker isolation pads. I've heard from some people that they are a must and others say they make no difference at all. I'm currently using just the isolation mat/pads that came with my Focals.
This room is going to allow me to do a lot of great testing!
Sometimes speaker pads can actually introduce problems too. But mostly if they're somewhat tall (10+ cm). But the low ones make very little difference. It's much preferred to either use heavy speaker stands, ceiling mounting (in long wires) or wall-mounting (IF the wall is rigid).
Still, we all live in real rooms, and if it isn't possible to do the above, then some speaker-pads are ok. Just don't expect them to isolate much.
Proof? Touch the surface next to the speakers while playing some music at a decent/normal volume. I'll bet you can still feel the vibrations. And if you put your ear straight onto the surface, you can **hear** the resonances too.
Would have been interesting to see the EQ Charts before and after the treatment was installed.
Gavin is amazing !
Yes! He certainly is!
Warren you consistently deliver great content, easy to digest... WH, you rock! PS. Which artists have you been working with lately?
Hi Jeff, I've been busy with a bunch of projects! Still doing alot with Steve Maggiora of course, plus lot's of mixing!
Hey there Mr. Warren, your channel has given me and so many so much insight and amazing lessons so thank you so much for all you do for the community. Is this just a specific software that gives you this information on the room?
lol, I thought only Americans said "ICE hockey" It's just Hockey here in Canada lol. Enjoyable episode and those speakers are gorgeous
I grew up ij the UK, we play the original Hockey, which Canadians and Americans would know as 'field hockey'
Fantastic.
Thanks ever so much
@@Producelikeapro It seems that the treatment with the air gap Gavin mentioned in regards to mounting on the ceiling could be mounted to the door also.
Really interesting Bedroom recording speaker series Warren 👍 now off to find somebody in London who can do this for me 😩
Glad to be able to help Ron! Best of luck with your studio build
Thanks for the video. Some helpful info in here for beginners and intermediates.
Love my Focal Shape 65s. Unfortunately, one has had the amp and woofer go out twice through no fault of my own. Focal replaced it twice but informed me they wouldn’t replace it any more after that. Like what?
Never confirmed with whether there was a design flaw or anything. Just hey we fixed it for you but you’re on your own next time.
Sell them while your ahead and go with something more reliable?
Warren Huart, rockin' the Swedish (with a decent pronunciation no less). :-D
I’m trying Lasse!
You should measure the response with and without the pucks at equivalent height.
Interesting idea! The great news is we will be able to test all of these things over and over again with different speakers
Great video overall! I’m surprised there wasn’t as much focus on the time domain (z axis) which is equally if not more important than frequency response. You can view this information on a waterfall or spectrogram graph. In a nutshell: if 60 and 70 hz are flat even with each other level wise, but 60hz “reverberates” / decays for 200-300 ms longer, the bass will still sound muddy and ill - defined, as if you put certain bass frequencies through a reverb plug-in and not others.
You are absolutely right 👍
An electrician might consider this Overkill, but you could run all of your audio equipment on a separate breaker from the electrical with its own grounding rod. I'd ask about surge protection before the breaker box, and whatever protection you can get against brownouts. Brownouts are actually much more damaging than blackouts are
It's definitely not a bad idea, but could be very costly depending on the existing electrical service entry & panel, along with how difficult it would be to run the circuit/wiring to that room. It obviously has two exterior walls, so probably not that difficult. A standard sized electrical panel's single circuit breaker slot can usually be replaced with a slim, dual-gang (2 circuit) breaker to provide the additional circuit.
Ideally, Warren would have two 20-amp breakers with 2 dedicated outlets run to this room, like a typical kitchen or bathroom would have (to accommodate high-wattage toasters & microwave ovens, bathroom heaters, curling irons, & hair dryers, etc.).
Unfortunately, most bedrooms (especially in older homes) will usually have just ONE 15-amp breaker and circuit to accommodate both the lighting and wall sockets, and that single 15-amp circuit may even supply all of the bedrooms combined, unless there is a dedicated master bedroom suite.
If Warren's house is an older L.A. home with just a 100-amp main service entry, it's probably not possible without sacrificing power in other areas of the home. But if he has a more modern and typical 200-amp service entry to the main panel, and at least one full-size, single-gang breaker slot available in the main panel, it should be fairly easy and straightforward.
There are double-conversion pure sine wave inverter UPS systems available (such as those used for data servers/server farms) that perform a complete conversion & "clean" regeneration of the AC waveform and eliminate brown-outs & surges/spikes that are typically $800-$2,500 and fit in a 2-4U rackmount unit or floor-standing unit. Many offer extended run time by connecting an additional outboard battery bank (if needed). I use a 2U rack-mount Pure Sine Wave UPS from Tripp-Lite for this purpose.
Several of the major commercial studios in L.A. use a large, closet-sized commercial grade pure sine wave inverter/regenerator units, but their cost is obviously outside the scope of this project.
@don ald
Oh, and an electrical service and ALL of the 120VAC circuit breakers in the panel should only have a SINGLE Grounding Rod/grounding point. There should never be two different paths to ground. The 240VAC circuit(s) *may* be tied to a separate ground rod, such as an exterior forced air HVAC condenser unit.
The U.S. electrical wiring & power system is really weird, in that the Neutral (white wires) of each 120vac circuit are all tied to the common Ground Bus Bar in the service panel. It doesn't seem to make any sense, but there are several good UA-cam videos that explain the reasons why it is set up this way.
Thanks ever so much Don!
I rent so my method is to use UPS battery backups. I run all my gear across two of them, rated at about 750 watts apiece and both feature automatic voltage regulation. By design, they are isolating my equipment from the outlet in the wall so no matter what happens, a sag, surge, blackout, etc. my equipment stays on and at a constant 120v 60hz clean power. This also has cleared up grounding issues and noise a noticeable amount. My room is split between two circuits with different ground paths so this has been my low cost method to solving the issue. These are rackable units as well so they won't be in the way.
There also exists isolation transformers as well, but I like the battery backup so I can power things down and save my work in the event I lose power.
Warren being based in Cali, the electrical costs to have the whole star topology ground rod technique done would be prohibitively expensive.
I would just get a couple nice rackable apc units with small batteries to decrease weight and call it a day.
@@MrNEWDY that's freaking brilliant!
I rent too but it's a single family farmhouse. It's been rewired but
OF COURSE
not exactly right so I do deal with a little noise
very nice indeed
Thanks very much!
@@Producelikeapro just finished watching, very interesting video since I am a sound engineer undergraduate and just completed my first acoustics module. Thank you very much for letting this guy go into such deep detail on the topic!
@@leocarr1551 thanks ever so much Leo!
@@leocarr1551 Acoustics can be a lot of fun! Good luck with your schooling!
This is awesome. I honestly need help with my studio. I have the speakers set up left/right but I my left speaker always seem to be louder the the right one. I have my setup where the front wall and back wall are furthest from each other. Could it be becuase the ceiling is slanted. Left side of the ceiling is higher and slants down to the right side.
I say this light-heartedly as love your content: So you hired a guy to measure your room response, agreed with his use of iso-pucks and size of equalateral triangle and suggestion of sub with particular crossover point, but when he says the closet can be filled with treatment and freestanding absorption in front to address the Bass issue due to room symmetry, you say “nah I’ll probably just continue to use it to store things”. Do what he says!!! Haha. Learning loads, only joking.
Haha it’s always a balance isn’t it? We need storage haha and as it seems that isn’t that much of an issue with the room’s acoustics
Very nice video as usual. Thanks. But I got a question, since I have focal shape monitors too. There's a burn in period (explained in the manual). Do you think the dip could be due to the "too new" monitors (freshly unpacked)? How about burning the monitors in before testing the room response? What does the expert think?
@Haverstick Designs
Gavin, do you typically rely on Single Point microphone measurements to determine and inform your corrections to the in-room response at the listening/mix position??? I understand that for the LF range it will not vary significantly, but above the Schroeder Frequency would you not prefer a spatial average or moving mic measurement within the listening window???
Second question: Have you implemented *DIRAC Live* measurements and correction in any of your projects?
More bass trapping needed! 2 inch panels aren’t going to smooth out the amount of deep bass you need, they just don’t catch frequencies that low. I’d be getting stacked GIK tritraps for any corners that can accommodate them, that’ll make a big difference! 👍
There actually isn’t an issue with too much Bass/Low End, if you watch the video you’ll see we don’t have that issue. Many thanks
I don't use the pucks in the studio but I do have the Iso Acoustic stands, great addition to my PreSonus Eris E5's
Fantastic! Thanks for sharing
@@Producelikeapro I've been using them for a few years now. I actually did a review on my youtube some years ago LOL and people had nerve to thumbs down the review. I guess people felt some type of way back then, but using them definitely allowed me to hear things I wouldn't have otherwise., both with the monitors and the stands.
This is very useful information, I would love to know what kind of measuring software is available for this, and the science behind it, very interesting.
Thanks ever so much! Glad to be able to help!
not sure how much difference it would make, but you could try one of those oversized mouse pads that cover the entire desk to try and mitigate desk reflections 🤔
Very cool!
@Pav S
Unfortunately, it wouldn't do too much, especially at the typical frequencies that are problematic with desk/console reflections.
And a mouse pad is typically made with closed-cell neoprene foam, not open-cell acoustic foam. And to be effective, the foam or absorbing medium would need to be AT LEAST *1/4-wavelength* of the problem frequency to even begin to be significantly effective. For example, 20kHz has a wavelength of 0.675 inches (17mm) and a mouse pad is typically just 0.25 inches (6.3mm) thick, or less.
A better solution would be to eliminate the desk or console altogether and simply use individual speaker stands and a small table/support surface just large enough for your mouse and keyboard.
@@bbfoto7248
yeah, I don't expect it would do wonders, but some of those full table mousepads are fairly thick and the idea isn't to make a drastic change, just to be better than nothing at a very low cost.
of course angled desk or no desk would be better, but that's not what we're dealing with here.
it reminds me of the old physicist joke about how a farmer hired a bunch if physicists to help him improve his milk output. after a week spent tirelessly working in the barn, an elated physicist emerges and tells the farmer they figured out how to maximize his milk output. the farmer is eager to hear the solution and so the physicist begins: "Step 1! All cows have to be perfect spheres!"
sometimes we just have to deal with the desk we have 🤷♂️
I hope this didn't come across negatively, it wasn't meant to. I certainly agree that a non-existent desk would not cause as many reflections.
@@pavs8736 No, not taken negatively at all. 👍 It's obvious that 99% of us will be using some type of desk or console and will have to deal with it the best we can!
I just happen to have an extremely small room as well...actually it's a converted 20ft long, "high-cube" steel shipping container. 🙄 For this reason I omitted a desk altogether as it's my drum & saxophone tracking room as well. I also fit in an acoustic and electric guitar and bass, as well as a 61-key synth/keyboard, so the space got tight very quickly. 😂
However, I did do extensive climate related insulation and acoustic treatments throughout (including a suspended "cloud" absorber/diffusor and multiple 5'x7' uber-thick shag area rugs that can be moved/removed), and extensive measurements to dial in the response.
I've utilized lots of thick & heavy acoustic curtains with grommets hung from multiple steel cables strung from end-to-end and at multiple points dividing the room. Shipping containers have welded-in eyelets or "D"-rings all around the upper perimeter that are used for securing cargo with straps.
I can open or close the various curtains to get the desired tonality and natural decay time and reverb from my drum "room" mic's...and this works well for my sax tracking as well.
The drum kit is positioned at the far end of the shipping container, and the drum "room" mic(s) are positioned at the opposite far end. For any reverb that I can't achieve acoustically in the smallish room, a well-used Bricasti M7 that I scored at a great price saves the day. :)
I also built a fairly compact DIY rolling "sidecar" for my rack-mount equipment instead of having it in a traditional desk...
Look for my other post here if you're interested in more details of my No-Desk & low-positioned computer display monitor setup. For me, this helps to keep the clutter down to a minimum in my small room and leaves more room for other instruments and musicians/vocalists.
I use a medium size mechanic's rolling workbench/tool cabinet drawer base for my "mic locker" and extra guitar pedals, XLR/instrument cables, all types of small percussion instruments, and other general accessories. On top of the tool box workbench I built an open rack for my various snare drums and cymbals.
I also used quick-connect/quick-release wall- and ceiling-mounted mic stand adapters from Triad-Orbit to keep stands off of the floor and less cluttered. For example, my ORTF drum O/H mics are mounted to a short boom stand suspended from the ceiling, and one for a vocal mic as well. Look at *Andrew Masters* UA-cam channel and his drum studio tour for a similar ceiling-mounted mic setup.
I'm also a high-end car audio enthusiast, and a custom 1" thick dash mat DOES make a slight positive difference in regards to the many destructive and constructive comb filtering anomalies resulting from the extensive windshield/dash/side window reflections. So the "mouse pad" idea does have some merit. But again, it will only be effective in the upper treble region.
I also use a multichannel *miniDSP C-DSP 8x12 DL* processor in the car audio system which utilizes *DIRAC Live* room correction, and it is a game changer IMO. DIRAC Live works extremely well in the home studio setup as well. Enough rambling, LOL!
Cheers!
@@bbfoto7248
neat, I appreciate the detailed description of your setup. always working on my own, so I'll definitely borrow some of these ideas 👍
Before testing in the room I always want to see the measured response of the speakers themselves. Typical one watt one meter, spectral, horizontal, vertical, etc. Otherwise it’s difficult to judge what is the room vs what is the speaker. Then of coarse how many hit songs were mixed in rooms with lousy room acoustics and questionable (NS 10) speakers? Maybe we are all getting too hooked on newer expensive gear.
The thing that I always wonder about with room acoustics is why we don't have more freestanding baffle board-style solutions (sorry, I don't what they're called), that you can put behind/around the listener to more succinctly deaden the sound. To a bedroom mixer, these could be a very practical solution if they fold flat, then you only get them out when you're mixing. I mean, I know the simple answer, they don't work for some reason and I'm sure people have measured it. I'm just curious why.
I like using subs with small speakers so they ( the small speakers) don't have to reproduce the low end and they will be much cleaner.
Now I have four 8" woofers that go to 30 hz before they start to roll off. They handle the bottom end very well and go up to 300 hz where a 4" Scan Speak mid takes over.
@Erik Kroll
Which 8" subwoofers and Scanspeak midrange are you using? 10F, 12m, or 12mu?
@@bbfoto7248 Dayton RSS 225 HO woofers and 10f Scan Speak mid. They are super neutral sounding. Love them.
@@erikkroll2154
NICE! Those are both excellent drivers and a good combination while still being very affordable. 👍 I've used both in car audio applications in the past with excellent results.
I've been experimenting with some 3-way DIY studio monitors that I'm still testing and dialing-in the crossovers on by using the multichannel miniDSP C-DSP 8x12 processor.
For this particular 3-way mid-field monitor pair, I'm using the BMS 5CN162HE 5" midrange that has an integrated concentric compression driver tweeter as my mids & highs solution, combined with a 10" Ciare HW251N midbass driver. So it looks more like a 2-way rather than a 3-way monitor.
The test cabinets aren't pretty, but without much time into them otherwise, I'm ecstatic with the results... :-)
They are already besting my ATC SCM25A's in regards to their sheer Dynamic and maximum SPL capabilities.
And the detail, focus, and Soundstage that these things present is about the best I've heard in terms of extended 3D Depth & Layering. :-) Excellent at very low listening levels as well, but these things can also get down and BOOGIE when asked, and remain linear with nearly no power compression!
The Ciare 10's are incredible midbass drivers, and are very reasonably priced as well. They are providing incredibly articulate, fast, and rich but "airy" midbass.
The detail and realism in the plucked strings, buzzes, and the body & harmonics of bow strokes on a well recorded acoustic double bass and cello are stunning.
The BMS concentric drivers are a bit more money, but still very reasonable considering their performance, and that you're getting both the Midrange & HF drivers in one unit.
I'm just working to smooth out and dial-in their spectral balance a bit. But CRIKEY, these things give me the goosebumps!
Cheers
@@bbfoto7248 sounds great! The tweeter I am using is a titanium dome from Seas. Cheers!
in most speaker manuals, they specify to listen with the tweeter at ear level, or else you wont hear the response intended or represented by the manufacturer. listening higher or lower will result in peaks and dips in the response due to timing and phase differences. is there a suggestion in the manual ? also, the measurement mic must be in the exact position the center of your head would occupy while seated. otherwise you measure a different set of reflections than you will hear. and i will bore you with one more, the bounce or reflection off the table will definitely change the response, once again due to differences in timing and phase of the reflection versus the direct sound from the speakers. the equipment that will be on the table will partially act as a diffusor and will smooth the peaks and dips out a bit.
Also a rectangular room without treatment produces more stationary waves that creates lows and highs volume spots depending on the frequency that is very annoying for mixing
I know the room is small, but that desk is still very close to the wall. You had did another video with a guy couple years ago talking about the ultimate seating position was at just over a 33-38% off the length of the front wall of the room. I did that and my flat frequency response change drastically. Plus made it a hell of a lot easier to get behind things. Just food for thought!
Yes, I very thing is in exactly the right place. Did you watch the video? Or as I assume you are commenting before? Many thanks
The ultimately seating position is discussed in the video and it is at 38%
I skipped around and 2x the speed... guilty as charged. When you post long videos I tend to do that!
@@Producelikeapro
Warren, I suppose you need the desk because you'll be testing & reviewing many different products in this room. But why not eliminate the desk altogether? The more desk surface I have, the more needless junk it accumulates. :-P
In my small room, my monitors are on individual speaker stands, and I use a single rolling upward-angled sidecar for my rack-mount equipment. I made a small DIY QWERTY keyboard and mouse stand/table out of cabinet grade Baltic Birch plywood with walnut trim that is similar to a small accessory percussion table (I'm a drummer & saxophonist).
I added another shallow & slim shelf underneath it that is on extendable drawer glides to hold a small MIDI keyboard, control surface or, audio interface.
I also placed a headphone hanger hook on one end of the lower shelf, and another hook/hanger on the opposite side for my D.I. electric guitar & bass instrument cable & a 20' XLR mic cable to quickly plug in for scratch vocal takes.
A desk simply took up too much valuable space in my room, and its omission all but eliminated the typical desktop reflections & comb filtering seen in your mix position measurements.
My computer monitor is on a floor stand and uses a tripod ball head attached to the rear VESA mount in order to angle it up to my POV. The top edge of the 4K monitor comes up to just below the level of the speaker stand platforms and is surrounded with a DIY 2.5" thick black acoustical foam "hood".
The foam monitor hood reduces some potential mid/high frequency reflections & comb filtering (measured with REW) and eliminates screen glare and reflections from the in-room lighting and other equipment.
I didn't want a large, acoustically-reflective display monitor at eye- & ear-level smack-dab between the studio monitors, and the very slight downward viewing angle is more comfortable for my neck and shoulders over long periods. It's similar to the angle you would look at the instrument panel and gauges in your car while driving. I really don't need to tilt my head down at all to view the display monitor, just shift my eyes ever so slightly downward, like looking at your speedometer and then back through the windshield...errr windscreen.
I also use DIRAC Live room correction, and my in-room impulse response is excellent, and amplitude response in the listening window is flat between +/- 2dB from ~110Hz-17kHz, with a gradual rise from ~160Hz down to 23Hz, and F3 at ~16Hz. :-) I'm using two 1990's Infinity Beta 15x car audio subwoofers, each in 2.2 c.f. sealed enclosures stuffed about 50% with acoustic lamb's wool.
I manually checked phase alignment/coherency using the FREE Download-able *TüN 4* measurement & DSP software from car audio manufacturer *JL Audio* which utilizes measurement functions similar to Systune & Smaart v8.
The *JL Audio* UA-cam channel has some recent tutorials for using the *TüN 4* measurement software. And while it is geared for measurements in vehicle interiors using their VXi car audio DSP/amplifier products, it can easily be applied to typical listening rooms.
Oh, I should mention that I use typical DIY acoustic absorption, diffusion, and bass traps that are similar to the commercial products in your new room, though I do have a suspended overhead "cloud" absorber/diffuser and a large, uber thick area rug over bamboo flooring as well.
For those on a budget who are wanting to do their own in-room measurements, the FREE download-able *RoomEQ Wizard* software combined with a laptop and a $100 *miniDSP UMIK-1* USB measurement microphone can go a long way!
@@gotyor haha it's ok! Thanks for the great response!
I have a similar situation where one speaker has a big dip and other speaker a peak in the same spot, was wondering if that was actually helping each balance that area out
I’m working on an extremely asymmetrical room so I opted to deaden it. I haven’t done measurements in a while, but I will again because now I’m curious. My question is, what are the issues that arise from having a room that doesn’t have much decay or top end response?
I'm waiting for a presonus cal mic to arrive in the post right now.
Marvellous! I hope it went well
Man I have a question....if I am doing like the guitar on one side and the reverb on the other....how do I treat my levels ....the reverb from the guitar will effect other things right?
GREAT SERIES
Thanks ever so much! I don't know that particular builder, where are they based?
Which version of the Iso-puck are those?
What about adding a narrow band bass trap to fix that 95hz dip ?
Was the program that was showing floorplan, was that FuzzMeasure, or Autodesk Revit? It looked like Autodesk lol
Is there a reason why you didn’t put the grills on the Focal speakers?
HI Fred, I'm not sure why I would? I have many speakers that don't have covers or grills, in fact all of the ones I have! I suppose if I was using them in a situation where people were throwing things? Haha
Excellent video. My only issue is that hiring an acoustic engineer to do all this fine tuning would require a second mortgage loan.... Very curious to the final cost when all is said and done.
I’m not sure a second mortgage would be required! Haha Sweetwater themselves have a service where they use Gavin’s company. Plus there are a lot of affordable options out there
@J S
While it may seem daunting, using a laptop or desktop computer with a single measurement mic and some very powerful FREE software is not that difficult.
There are many UA-cam tutorials and Online blogs and forums that cover this topic. Once the I/O and other parameters in the software is set up properly, you pretty much are repeating the same steps and process over and over, which simplifies things.
Probably the most difficult aspect to it is INTERPRETING the results of your measurements. But again there are many videos and public Online discussions on this topic.
For those on a budget who are wanting to do their own in-room measurements, the FREE download-able *RoomEQ Wizard* software (REW), combined with a laptop and a ~$100 *miniDSP UMIK-1* or *Dayton Audio UMM-6* USB measurement microphone with a calibration file can go a long way!
Or you can use the aforementioned *DBX RTA-M* or *Behringer ECM-8000* XLR measurement mic with your existing audio interface. If your interface has at least two channels with mic preamp/line inputs, you can create a "loop-back" to perform the IR measurements.
*miniDSP* offers some fairly inexpensive 2-channel DSP room/EQ correction interfaces, and some are compatible with the DIRAC Live room correction software that is an add-on to the unit for an additional fee.
@@bbfoto7248 Acoustics require A LOT of hands-on experience in order to not waste lots of money and time for little to no practical ACTUAL impovements (without inducing new problems in the process).
I know that UA-camrs want to make everyone think it's a totally DIY-friendly thing that anyone can learn by watching a handful videos and buying whatever treatment that UA-camr recommends. But it's simply more a case of UA-camrs wanting views - and they do that by "selling the dream".
And I say that as someone who only at this point in my life, after years of experimenting with acoustics, and learning learning learning about it, feel ready to start offering it as a service to clients (as part of my daytime business).
Whenever I read comments to acoustics videos like this, and on Reddit, etc, I see SO MANY misunderstandings and misapplied rules of thumb, armchair experts dispelling half-truths, etc etc etc. And all that just adds to the confusion out there. Cos then other people watch or read it, and go on to share the same bad advice, elsewhere online. And thus it perpetuates itself.
My best advice is to read books of the nerdy type, by the people who truly 100% know what they're doing. And then apply their advice, and experiment. Verify that what you've implemented actually does what you expected it would do. And if it doesn't: figure out why, and to to THEN solve the problem, differently.
There are so many factors at play (f.e. wall-thickness and rigidity), doors, windows, etc. So every room (and sound system) is 100% unique. And so are the ears of the person/people USING the room. And the latter doesn't stop at "applying a house curve". There's so much more to it than that. Some like their bass "loose" - some like it "lean" - and that's where speaker Q's (Qtc = 0.707, etc) come into play. And how they relate to, and interact with, that particular room - and the personal preferences of the person/people using the room.
And I could go on and on 😅
Want a simple, inexpensive, effective isolation for your speakers to sit on to de-couple them from the desk?
McMaster Carr, vibration isolators part 60855k71, $3.33/each. Get 8, four for each speaker to sit on. So $14 per speaker.
I use (and love) Sonarworks in my 10x10 foot office/studio. I calibrated with the reference mic provided by Sonarworks that I thought should be pointed at the speakers. I noticed that the mic in this video was pointed at the ceiling. Any thoughts and advice from anyone.
For low frequency measurements (which was our main focus on this trip), it doesn't matter which direction you point the microphone since it is omni-directional. It is better to point it straight up because the microphone doesn't have to be moved for each speaker and it keeps things consistent. If our focus was for higher frequency measurements, pointing the microphone at the source would be the way to go. Thanks for the comment!
@Arthur Zatarain
In addition, good measurement mics will usually be supplied with 2 calibration files. One for use with the mic in a vertical orientation, such as Gavin's measurements here, and another for the "more typical" horizontal microphone orientation, i.e. pointed on-axis to the source or MLP.
Were you able to hang the Rose brand sound curtains using regular curtain rods?
Yes we were!
@@Producelikeapro awesome! I will be utilizing one of those for my window. Thanks Warren!
@@Producelikeapro how? from what I can tell, they don't come sewed to place a rod thru...
94 dB SPL = 1 Pa
Thanks ever so much Mats!
Hello Warren, I did ask you a question on FB but you probably haven't seen it yet or ignored it!!!
What's the best ideal smallest size for a mixing room?
I'm absolutely tickled you picked Focal Shape 65's to start with. I bought a pair of those for my home studio! Talk about validation, when some of the best ears in the business choose those out of the crowd. :) I absolutely love the Shape 65's.
Jay S
Hi Warren, first I would like to say I have never subscribed to any channel as of till now!!
I just have to thank you for your work on this. I also have taken a room and turned it into a studio. Moved things, changed room around changed monitors, purchased equipment, microphones, on and on, and now years later after also going down the road of high-end listening, and purchasing of that type of systems and equipment also. I would like to say I have learnt the hard and expensive way the ROOM "OH The Room"! has to be addressed more-so than poring money into equipment and thinking it will get better! (But not being satisfied). Change out more equipment and just store more of the old equipment in the closet, back room, or waverer we find a place to put it! Although I did not, and do not give up easily because? Maybe I have some "John Wayne syndrome" and to stubborn for my own good I guess! I have been failing my way to success. I now realize that great audio equipment does not sound good in a room that has (Bad Acoustic) Yes I have tested and treated my room and use room calibration software to touch it up, finally years later! I do not have the money now to build a custom ideal size, isolated, Acoustically treated room. I Probably could have with what I have spent on what I mentioned above. The studio is not perfect, I know that does not exist, but it now sounds good, and I can finally mix, and enjoy just listening.
Warren I would love to see just how you go a-bought installing and setting up a sub woofer. The measuring equipment you're going to use for the time and phase aligning and crossover settings and and so on. Also the why you are making your choices you are would be helpful too.
Warren It appears you know how important this room acoustic really is! I won't to thank you for helping us all on this so often misted important topic! And thanks for your time consuming work you are putting into this on room Acoustics for us. This will help most all of us from the seasoned studios, to beginner and to the avid listener as well. I hope it will help a lot of you out there to not make the same mistakes as me and blow this topic over as many years as I did chasing my sound tail.
Warren I am looking forward to following you on this journey. I love learning!
Sorry every one for the lengthy comment. I just do not know how else to say this.
Thanks for your incredible comment! I really appreciate it
Yes, more to come
@@Producelikeapro Looking forward to it Warren, thanks again.
I'm going through this exact thing right now. I've completed building my own studio, and I'm using REW to test my room. I even had the same series of monitors (Focal Shape Twins), and I'm even getting the same type of problems in my low end below 100Hz. This video couldn't have come out at a better time! I'm going to add a sub to my room, and see how it helps. Thanks a ton!
One question I do have. What subwoofer are you going to use with these speakers? Focal doesn't have a Shape sub, so I'm wondering which one you're going to go with.
Same here. I'm considering adding a sub. Curious if adding a sub got rid of your null/dip?
@@clintyoung9902 oh yes it definitely helped. Also moving my speakers as close as possible to the back wall to minimize SBIR.
@@braedenlane did you stick with all Focal?
@@clintyoung9902 nope. I went with Adam S3H’s and actually ditched the sub.
@@braedenlane a speaker change helped the issue??
Don’t like to sound negative but the difference between 95hz and ~200 is almost 30db which is really too much… also on other speaker there is a huge dip below 100hz… 50-200hz is one of the most important sound range, without it everything will sound tin… you need some really good dsp sub like Genelec 7370A and more bass trapping to try to fix it… you can also try to bring speakers closer to the walls that dip might be just a SBIR problem… just don’t use Sonarworks 🙈
Why focal shape and not Adam a7x or another in that price range?
I have the Adam’s as well! Please check out the other videos in the series
Well,,, where is the SSL going ? I could store it (completely assembled of course, lol) as long as you need if that helps :D
Edit: Ahh, part 4,,, so watching the prior episodes, sadly you won't be needing a bit of storage space in my 27 x 25 studio in progress lol,,, Sadly I won't have an SSL in it either lol. But I do have decent interfaces and many SSL, API emulation plugins ;)
Should be done in a year or two lol,,, but I said that 3 years ago too, so,,, lol.
Hmm, that desk looks to be a great upgrade for the more flimsy APEX tiered desk I have. What is it?
Watch the previous video in the series where they choose all of the gear & furniture for the room. And there are links in the video description as well if you take the time to look.
🙂
Thanks ever so much Audrey!
What are you guys going to do about lighting? People are having trouble with the LEDs because sometimes they flicker. Fluorescent lights tend to put out a lot of noise.
Hey I don't know if you guys knew this or not but Romex shouldn't be ran parallel with any kind of audio cables or wiring. I should be at least six inches between them. Although strangely enough electrical wiring and audio wiring can intersect without any trouble
Yes, LED lighting can cause some interference, and their dimming via built-in ballasts is usually achieved by varying the frequency of the flicker.
While not as energy efficient, in a small room, using old school incandescent task lighting should minimize any potential EMI or RFI noise and not cost too much more on your electric bill. However, note that using a dimmer on incandescent lighting may reintroduce this interference.
In general, where low level audio or video Signal cables need to intersect or cross 120V A/C Power cables, it is best that they cross at 90° angles, i.e. like a "+" in order to minimize any inducted noise and interference.
The speaker outputs from a power amplifier are also A/C voltage, though it is dynamic/fluctuating power and usually at much lower voltages than 120VAC/60Hz household AC lines.
Some Class-D amplifiers that are not shielded well will emit lots of EMI/RFI noise that can be inducted into low level signal cables, or interfere with WiFi and AM/FM tuners.
Next part?)
Coming soon!
def don't need 4 pucks per speaker, I only got three each for mine.
Hi Warren,
I notice that you addressed the mid freq to solve with sonarworks but not the low end issues. Did you have good results with sonatworks on the low end?
Absolutely! In the mix Position it sounds amazing
@@Producelikeapro In the meantime I have bought SW, happy with the results! First time ever that I was happy when I was checking in other room/speakers❤️
Don't forget SLÁN among your goodbyes Warren. I know there's some Irish in you somewhere 😅. Incidentally 'slán' is how americans ended up with 'so long'! Believe it or not.
Fantastic! Can you spell that phonetically?
@@Producelikeapro Haha yeah the á is somewhere between an O and an A sound.. a bit like slawn I suppose!
Warren, I didn't see the speakers being swapped around or in some way tested to see they are exactly the same without manufacturing differences - that would be a first port of call for mine.
Cheers, Ross
@ross muir
While it would be nice to confirm that each monitor has identical amplitude response, etc, my experience with all Focal products is that they have relatively reliable manufacturing and QC testing with matching response unit-to-unit.
The individual Acoustic Response at the listening position due to the variations in the room interactions from each Left & Right speaker will be much greater than any variance between the anechoic response of each speaker...unless of course there is a significant manufacturing or assembly defect in one of the units which is nearly always easy to detect and quite obvious.
That may not be the case for all entry-level "budget" studio monitors and/or other brands, but IME Focal products have been really consistent in that regard.
Check out the *Erin's Audio Corner* UA-cam channel for an extensive review and test measurements of the *Focal Twin6 Be* monitors.
Your insurance bill must be astronomical
Haha indeed!
Oh it's a pre-existing building. For some reason I was thinking you guys were having a place built from the ground up
Yes, it's my kids old bedroom!
@@Producelikeapro Are you moving your studio exclusively to your house ?
Not too bad. The properties of room < 200Hz are controlled by geometry rather than by 2-4" absorbing matherials (regardless of vendor claims) because 100Hz wavelength is 3.4m, and anything less than wl/4 is not going to affect much. Adding false bevelled walls to de-parallel them is of great value. Old big sofa is great too. Going away from 90 deg angles is also very beneficial. Floor-ceiling resonance is bad - but listeners will have the same, for standard 8...9ft.
Subwoofer will create a lot of mess in IR. Try closed-box speakers instead to exploit LF room gain.
There were many research efforts on user setups which found that most start with a TV on a (long) wall, spks on TV sides, sofa on opposite, viewing distance ~3...3.5m. Move your spks to the walls - that's what most listeners will do anyway. imho, there is no sense whatsoever in making a mix that sounds great in anechoic chamber.
Finally, you need to examine room responses in STFT (spectrogram) domain.
Very interesting. Also hard not to be a tad disillusioned by this. If we are happy with 10 db (!) dips and peaks, then what the hell are we doing in mastering adding 0.5 db here and there. It's a miracle if those things translate. Goes to show that everything is about knowing your room and if you are not using reference mixes, you are probably not doing yourself a favour.
Surely the most accurate way to measure it for mixing etc, would be for the guy to sit in the mix position and for Warren to leave the room? With you both stood in the corners, you're acting as extra bass traps and the not taking in to account what a person in the mix position would have (which is the most important).
While true, they would also need to use a Go-Pro or other small camera on a tripod or mic stand to capture the video footage for us without Eric or a videographer in the room as well.
I do think that it would be interesting to see a real-world comparison of the delta in response at the mix position both with and without the guys sitting in each corner. However, I don't think that it will be significantly different.
Small rooms tend to never represent low frequencies as low frequencies never complete their full cycles within the space provided, they just go straight through the walls, that is why most small room mixing usually has too much low end in the mixes.
I'm happy to mix in here! Feel pretty confident with some minor tweaks I"ll have a fairly accurate room. It's interesting that they last video had tons of comments saying there would be too much low end in there!
@@Producelikeapro That's what matters most, that you are happy.
It's ironic the recommendation to fix your dip in the 90s is to add a subwoofer. I would have thought adding another low frequency "emitter" would cause more bouncing off the walls, and in turn cause more cancellation problems.
@Dan Updegraff
Search for and check out the following video on the *Erin's Audio Corner* UA-cam channel titled *Using a Subwoofer to Improve Midbass in Your Car Audio System*
While this video is targeted at the high-end car stereo audience, the information can be applied to typical listening rooms as well.
Erin's day job is as an engineer/rocket scientist for NASA, but he has been a music and audio measurement geek for over 10 years.
He currently owns a $100k *Klippel Near-Field Scanner* loudspeaker measurement system and has many EXCELLENT reviews and comprehensive test measurements on his website and UA-cam channel, including several budget to high-end studio monitors such as the Kali Audio line, the Focal Twin6 Be, the Dutch & Dutch 8C, the Kii Audio THREEs, and many more.
Erin also has UA-cam videos on how to "read" and interpret all of the measurements and graphs/charts. Highly Recommended!
Nobody listens to music in a calibrated studio. To bad 😅