Another factor regarding String Relief to consider is that as the string is fretted, and the vibrating length is shortened, the amplitude of the maximum vibrating width is also reduced.
In the 30+ years I have been doing luthier work and over 1000 fret jobs, my determination is that “proper relief” in a neck is the factories way to minimize poor fretwork. A flat neck plays better and sounds better….IF the fretwork is stellar.
You right.. tone much better when flat neck.. but many guitar bass side and trble side always not the same flat and poor fretwork.. i have this problem with gibson lp std, sg vibrola, and fnder american original.. all the guitar had a problem with neck flat bass&trble side
@@neilmcleanmusic That depends on neck construction. On a 3 or 5 piece Nk with carbon fiber rods there probably isn’t much movement when you take the strings off. With a flat sawn fender style neck, yea there probably is movement.
Your explanation leaves out at least one significant factor that I will briefly mention. As you fret up the neck, the geometry from the fret to the bridge changes. The angle becomes greater. With slight relief in the neck, the center of relief does indeed move up the neck as the geometry changes. With no relief, you have to raise the action to eliminate buzz in the low register, but then the action is overly high in the upper register.
I had a Guitar in the shop a few weeks ago for a new Bone nut, and a complete setup. It had .018" of relief at the 9th fret. The owner said he liked the way it played, but 1 nut slot was cut too deep, and he added relief to stop fret buzz. I set the neck up with zero relief, built the new nut, and set the 1st fret action at .009" I completed the setup, and set the relief at .004" I told him to pick up the Guitar, play it for a week, and bring it back for any final adjustments he felt were necessary, and to polish/glue in the new nut. He told me the Guitar (2022 Gibson Les Paul Standard Tobacco Burst) had never played this smoothly. He even gave me a $40 Tip!
I've read all the comments here, and feel that something else needs to be added: With a neck that is dead straight after the instrument is strung and tuned up, the clearance between the string and the fret above another one that's fretted (with a finger, etc) gets increasingly small towards the nut end of the neck (basic geometry). Neck relief helps to reduce this effect, and it's very convenient that necks bow more at the thinner end, which is where the bow/relief is most needed.
Well spoken sir, except let’s not forget you need more clearance going down the neck because the strings vibrate most in the middle. So, the straighter the neck the better
I set my personal guitars up with dead straight necks. If your frets are level you can get super low action with a little or no relief. I also use 8s… things the internet seems to think is impossible (light strings/low action/jumbo frets).
Do you play with a light or heavy technique? I like my shreddier type guitars flat with low action and I generally use a lighter technique with more overdrive/ distortion on those. For most other playing I like a little relief and a little higher action since i play those with heavier technique and cleaner sound. My technique generally dictates whether the guitar needs relief or not.
@@DavidRavenMoon Cheers, a fellow bassist. I play guitar too but bass is my calling (thanks Geddy). For bass I use fingers and pick depending on the attack I want. I generally use a slight relief for most of my basses, but my fretless is always dead flat.
When I'm levelling the frets I put a slight bit of pressure on the beam as it travels towards the bridge end of the neck, kind of sloping the frets if you will. After stringing the guitar I'll tighten the truss rod until the fingerboard is flat. Next I lower the bridge to the lowest point just before buzzing occurs. Lastly I give the tiniest amount of neck relief. Providing the the nut is cut appropriately to string gauge I get the lowest action. I'm not saying this is the best method but it's worked best for me.
Chris has soooo much insight and answers no one else has youve bailed me out in a few situations in which im very grateful for so thank you Chris any new viewers stick around you too will learn no matter your skill level this guy knows his stuff long time viewer not much on commenting but you deserve all of the recognition might i add you dont get enough of it thanks again 🙂
I will add this when you intonate your g-tar lower your pickups, lower magnetic pull helps strings vibrate freely and helps to stop other strings and harmonics to interfere with the calibration
I have a little different take. I go with "dead flat" as much as I can, but some guitar necks are more sensitive to temperature and humidity changes. In those cases I may add a bit of relief to keep from going "over bowed" during seasons when it has that tendency.
This is exactly my experience. I want enough relief to know there isn't a back bow and ensure low humidity won't create one. If you hang the guitar next to a wood burning fireplace you're on your own.
The neck should always remain straight. The only adjustment should be possible at the saddle (height at the bridge), whilst at the nut it should be low enough. This way is the optimal compromise and also visually (intuitively) seems to be the right way to adjust the trust rod and keep the neck straight.
I've always put a bit of back bow on my necks, without the strings on. Then when I put the strings on and tune it up, the neck ends up straight and flat. My opinion, a straight flat neck plays, and feels quite nice.
What I found is that if there is buzzing between the nut and the 8th or 9th fret its neck relief, buzzing between the 10th to 24th fret it's string height adjustment at the bridge saddles.
A couple things, great video. And what I often find is the fret buzz I have problems with don't usually occur out in the middle, or where max amplitude of the string is, but just one or two frets from where I press the string into a fret. The amplitude isn't largest here but the space for the string is at a minimum. SO it's not a buzz per se, but more of a metallic overtone, almost the way a Citar makes its odd metallic overtones. Sometimes it's just the profile of the fret I'm on. Keep in mind also that as you move up the neck the max amplitude spot changes but, the string gets shorter so the amplitude is overall less, and less likely to buzz. Plus the angle between the 17th fret and above is much steeper, and for that reason gives it more space to vibrate, It gets pretty complicated.
Physics says the fret plane should be a spiral with constant-ish take-off angle for the strings and almost zero clearance at the nut *and* saddles. Lower action = straighter curve, higher action = tighter curve. So really it *is* the truss rod that adjusts action, but because 1/3 of the curve is missing/nonadjustable, you end up having to adjust the saddles to compensate, but in reality the saddle height above the projected curve should be close to zero. If you keep a straight neck and just raise the saddles, then your high frets will be much higher than they need to be, relief prevents that.
Would you mind elaborating on the desired shape of the frets and also how to achieve this? Are are basically saying you want relief, but with fall away at the high frets, so you can have but low action near the nut and saddles? Roughly what relief do you shoot for and how much fall away do you add (if I’m interpreting correctly). Thanks!
Everyone has a different idea about this, some ppl claim dead straight is best, but think about what that would look like for a theoretical 100th feet - clearly ridiculous. The correct shape is a constant angle spiral. Definitely no fall away. (fall away is for poorly made acoustics that fail over time) In practice you can usually go for straight, level frets with the neck under no tension and let the strings and rod set the relief. Amount of relief depends on your desired playability and tone. Personally I go for 10-12 thou relief (8th fret) and 3.5-4.5 64ths action (12th fret). That should be very playable and clear. You'll be able to bend at the 5th fret and the action will still be low low at the 24th fret (neither of these are true with a dead straight neck). Shredders will go for lower action (less curve, less relief), which is perfectly fine for what they do - just don't expect it to be very clear sounding. The other thing to look out for is nut height, if you have a bright sounding guitar you probably need .02 clearance at first fret, otherwise you can get away with lower nut, eg .015 (bright guitars tend to make nut/1st fret buzz sound quite annoying)
Nice description of how and what relief is. I have some guitars with dead straight necks and others with a little relief. For basses I pretty much always have a tiny bit of relief except for fretless where I want perfectly straight. Lots of factors to consider but especially playing style. Its weird seeing 2 players try the same instrument with a little relief and it work for one but not the other. Then adjust the relief to perfectly flat and see the reactions can flip. As always, nice video.
comments like these are very helpful for someone that's learning like myself, ty for this. the video also was helpful in that it describes the movement up the neck upon fretting for the max oscillation.
@@staleyexplores Thanks. So much depends on preference and playing technique. Opinions by prominent builders varies too. Roger Sadowsky recommends and says on his website the he's "had the best success with the neck essentially dead flat.” On the other hand, Paul Reed Smith recommends on his company's website "Using a capo at the first fret, measure the distance from top of fret to bottom of string while depressing the string at the 1st and last fret: Relief for PRS guitars should measure .3/64" - .6/64" (.1mm - .3mm) at the 8th fret." Note those fractions have .3 and .6, not whole numbers so that equals around 4 thousandths and 9 thousandths of an inch. I'm not going on a limb and say either Roger Sadowsky or Paul Reed Smith is incorrect.
@@staleyexploreswoah hey another Staley!! Don’t see that very often! Cool man, our line went through Missouri, to Kansas, and then Arizona. I broke code and moved back to south East. Them damn staleys are nothin but dirty nomad hippies 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@TheyFearUAwake definitely a name I am proud to own for a little while 💜! Thanks for dropping me a line! Think I was named after my great uncle from Tennessee. Cheers friend!!😎
I have xcort floid rose guitar I was trying to keep my action low Than started Fret buzz at 15,16 frets in 2nd string Notes were sharp in all frets after doing intonation also I thought i need more neck relief But the theory of neck relief hit me hard i did lot of research As my experience i have played lot of guitar with straigh neck easy to play and sounds good Than finally after so many research i came across this video and did made my neck straight Now my action is low I raised a little bit lower bridge And now my notes are also in pitch perfect I guess guys with floid rose know the pain Now i will wait for neck to adjust nicely and see Thanks for the video. Important note: I tighten the thrust rod really carefully Cause with my past experience I have already broken my thrust rod and have it changed so while tightening or loosening make sure to be gentle And if it's not moving at all don't put too much force or a quick force just try some other day or take it to a professional so they can do it Nothing is worse than a broken thrust rod, your neck will be like a real bow.
Excellent explanation. One thing I started experimenting with 4 or 5 years ago is carving relief into the frets themselves, for the very reasons you described, using a Rectify Master Katana. Sometimes I even combine fallaway with relief when contouring the frets like this. I use a digital neck relief gauge to precisely set the curvature of the tool, and sand in an X pattern under string tension. Typically I only ever do this on the Low E and A strings, or bass string equivalents. I recently was working on a Warwick 6 string bass, and the only thing that ended up solving this nasty low string buzz was carving relief into the frets with the lowest point of relief at around the 13th fret. I also added fallaway on top of this. And not too long before that, I was working on a ukulele with a similar issue, solved almost the same way. Being able to select *where* to add relief and exactly *how much* to add is a huge, huge advantage. Again, for the exact reasons you described. And of course being able to test your work as you go by using your ears and playing the instrument immediately after each brief contouring session. Just as you pointed out in the video, people tend to think "more relief = less buzz," but many times more relief can actually make the buzz *worse* depending on where that buzz is. I've come to prefer dead straight necks on all my guitars, with a couple to a few thousandths of relief carved into the frets *only* under the Low E and A strings, and only as needed. And man. The nightmares about the hundreds of guitars and basses that have come in with buzzy Low E and A strings and the buzz wouldn't go away even with raising the action or inducing more relief into the neck. I can see the appeal of building your own guitars from scratch, because the stuff that's out there in the wild, well. You never know what you're going to get. To use a phrase my mentor used many times during my apprenticeship, it can get "muy ugly."
That's really interesting, I'm building a Frankenstein "Basher" bass for myself right now, just a quickie build that is going to be a DGAF instrument and, due to the fact I'm fitting a neck that doesn't belong to the body, I needed to rout out the pocket so I decided to experiment with a slight break angle and so far, it's looking really good but the neck needs some love as it's a factory second. I need to run the notched edge and rocker over the frets and see where we are but I think that I'll give your method a try if I find myself up against the same problems you described as I certainly have on other build in the past.
@@restojon1 Let me know how it goes! I usually start with leveling the frets flat with the neck completely straight, under full string tension. Any buzzes that remain after leveling flat, with the neck as straight as possible under full string tension, I address with the aforementioned techniques. Of course, you can also do this with the 'old school' method of leveling fret with the neck straight and the strings removed. Same thing at the end of the day. All final fine-tuning will be done under string tension with an understring tool, and using these techniques if necessary. I don't think I've ever needed to carve relief into the frets on the treble string side. But with bass strings, it might be necessary in some cases due to how big they are. It's possible to just use a flat beam, and put the neck into a back bow manually with the truss rod. David Collins uses a technique where he actually manually flexes the neck into a back bow by pressing the back of the neck (around the 7th fret) against a pivot, and then levels with a full length beam. He actually also pivots the neck in the *opposite direction* for the treble side -- pushing the neck into a slight forward bow before leveling the treble side. Then leaving the middle straight, and back bowing it for the bass side. I learned about his methods on the official luthier's forum after sharing my own method of using the Katana or another understring beam to carve relief into the frets. For my money, the Katana is the most practical and versatile way as you're not limited to the flexion of the neck dictating the lowest point of relief.
Hi, I was wondering if your techniques work on a completely flat neck that’s straight regardless of whether or not strings are tensioned on it ? It’s using a D tube and it’s very stiff. Luthier friend said it doesn’t bend even under string tension and can’t provide relief. Shaping it in the feet leveling itself would be an alternative
My opinion as a 45 year player and tooler lol,is knowledge is power, learn as much as you can, in the end I’ve played music with people that can take the worst guitars and make them sound like a top of the line instrument, I would play it after them and say I must have something to learn or want to quit altogether! Don’t quit you will make it to that level if you have enough desire, there are videos where people play SRV on 1 foot long plastic kids guitars that impress you more than SRV on a real one.
I quit using adjustable truss rods in favor of a carbon fiber "D-tube" inlayed the length of the neck. Ie, it forced the neck dead straight and will never arch. No issues with action at all.
I asked a friend to build a neck using that D tube for a baritone neck. It’s completely straight even under tension he said. Question here is: How do you set relief for it if necessary ? I’m researching this not as a luthier but as a person interested in this topic cause there’s this view that relief is needed and other holding the view that a straight is what’s optimal
Relief raises the string action, which usually prompts a guitarist to lower his bridge to compensate for the extra string height. However, it usually brings back the buzz he was attempting to get rid of by adding relief. Eventually his guitar ends up with too much neck relief, which causes more buzzing (above the 12th fret) and an uncomfortable playing action too. Now, he's looking for another guitar... factory set-ups usually always suck. They have "happy medium settings" to disguise bad fret work, even if the instrument has been marketed as "plek'd". The only way is to get a skilled tech to set it up for your hands and preferences.
So interesting. I have always set this sort of by request, and very much by trial and error. If I have a very heavy picker or strummer, a bit more relief. Finger style? nearly flat, unless a buzz starts, but frankly, I prefer curing buzz with the saddle, nut, and frets. It seems electric players can tolerate a bit more fret buzz for the sake of very low action. Jazz guys seem to like the action a bit higher, so the buzz takes care of itself if the neck and frets are OK. Also fretboard radius seems to make a difference. Great explanation.
Neck relief is a huge myth. In 2007 I bought a guitar with a perfectly strait neck. I brought it back into the store because of the fret buzz, and the store owner said the neck was "too strait". He "fixed" the problem by turning the truss rod instead of checking for high frets. That guitar was pretty crappy anyway, but the idea of neck relief stuck with me until I started building guitars last year. That is when I realized that neck relief is B.S. and usually is added to a crappily fretted instrument, or when someone can't figure out how to fix the fret buzz. There are alot of guitar players out there that actually believe there neck has to have relief.
My peers growing up told me that a guitar must have relief at the 10th fret, and I completely agree with you, it is to easy to turn a truss rod than to have the proper tools and experience to correct a very delicate problem, I’m a protectionist when it comes to intonation, but don’t spend any time on chording the guitar correctly! My uncle could make even a plastic kids guitar sound incredible, he told me “the musicians make the music not the instruments “,watching him I have no choice but to believe it’s true.
Fret buzz is fine. You don't hear if like myself your a really light player. Even as a Brian may fan, bm gear, owner and user, you can tell Brian has fret buzz as his frets have never been replaced. I like a straight neck and super low action. I don't like upbow at all. Personal preference. ;)
when they put the adjustment at the heel of the neck to begin with,it kinda indicates you should'nt be diddling with it every little whip-stitch, but instead is a preventative reinforcement to keep the bow and arrow thing from occurring. The Geometry of those strings is literally "Math Rock"😉
It all has to do with the standing wave of the string vibrations. The largest wave will always be at the mid point in any length of string. The higher the note the shorter the string the smaller that standing wave gets. Therefore less and less relief is needed as notes go up. This is why only the center of the neck gets the relief. To account of the larger standing wave of the lowest notes..
Yes when you press a fret the point of max excursion move forward but the amplitude decrease constantly. The max amplitude is with open strings and it's located in the middle of the neck, roughly.
Thank you for providing Informative videos. Please note I like the necks on my guitars to be dead straight as an arrow with NO relief. I’ve been told by the local “luthiers” that all guitars have to have relief to prevent string buzz. I know this is BS because I’ve had guitars with straight necks and low action and they did not have string buzz…the luthiers had the audacity to tell me that I’m not remembering my guitars correctly because all guitars have string buzz with low action that I prefer. Correct me if I’m wrong: If the neck is straight as an arrow with no relief or back bow and the nut slots are cut just right and the bridge and saddles are the right height - the strings should run parallel with the neck and not buzz. Please advise. Cheers
In most cases where the neck is dead flat, the strings aren't exactly parallel with the frets. They gradually climb higher toward the bridge. You want that so the strings will have room to vibrate without buzzing off the upper frets.
@@HighlineGuitars Thank you for responding. Yes, the strings do have a gradual climb toward the bridge. Allow me to amend my question: Can I have a dead flat neck with no string buzz? or am I not remembering correctly the necks on my other "shredder" guitars from years ago (as I was told by the luthiers) :)
@@Spaceman-jo5mz Yes you can. However, a normal relief of .008” is almost impossible for most people to detect. It feels flat. Therefore, what you may have remembered as dead flat may not have been.
thanks to chris and also the commenters here that confirm my suspicions. I have been playing and doing my own guitar setups for a very long, but never paid any attention to "neck relief" until recently. I've always set my neck flat, and my frets even and smooth, and then lowered the bridge until the strings were low and even. Suddenly I start hearing about and seeing "neck relief" and I wondered 😕 have I been doing something wrong all these years? Judging by the vid, the comments, and my own setup results over the years, NOPE. I love the comment about neck relief just being a manufacturers cheap solution to poor fretwork. That is probably exactly correct. I plan on producing my own guitars and they won't be needing any such "feature". Just good old craftsmanship works the best imo.
I think one crucial aspect of neck relief is that the trussrod reinforces the neck and helps adjusting the relief but there's still plenty of elements to take into consideration! Necks will usually be different to each other in how they handle the pressure of the strings. Just because you measure relief at a certain point, the neck could have a wildly different curve compared to another neck set at the exact same relief! This is really something most youtube videos and blogs skip! And then the 'simple subject of relief' even goes way further in depth with subjects such as fret compression and sanding the fretboard etc It's invaluable to learn how to read a neck! And it takes a looong time to learn all these small details because not all youtube channels are as helpful as this one! A great way to find the relief that suits you is to set it up with just enough room for the first few frets to vibrate and not too much whereas you will run into buzzing in the middle and higher up the neck. I prefer as straight as I can get away with; so for electrics usually 5 thou and for acoustics dead straight!
The truth is having a fine tune instrument is a real pain in the brain!!! Because to obtain this the nut is cut with very little life left , everything has very little room for wear and or change, hours of work lost in a short time to usage or change in environment. Perfect intonation is as easy as learning how to correct intonation problems with muscle memory and hand control which is possible lol
A straight neck sounds like nails on a chalkboard to me, lower strings don't resonate fully and even if it's not buzz per se the immediate frets rob a lot of tone and sustain. I need about 0.030 as per Fender specs measured at the 8th between 1st and 17th fret otherwise it's torture. And the bending gets much easier. I don't have to punish my fingers with the extra tension a bone straight neck makes
To get the lowest possible fret action the fret board has to have a slight rise in the fretboard from about the 10th fret on up to the 22nd fret. This makes your stings as low as they possible can be all the way up the neck. This is tricky to do! But is the real best way to get a guitar close to perfect. So start ripping your fretboards off guys ?????????
I run a machine shop and I used to build guitars. I'm currently experimenting with some really thin aluminium necks and richlite fretboards. Theres no truss rod in the neck and I'll be interested to see how it pans out as I've always thought having a truss rod is better than not but regarding this build the aluminium is significantly more rigid than wood but I can't be sure as it's a prototype. I'm debating installing some carbon fibre rods to give it even more rigidity. Be interested hear your thoughts. Cheers Man Jack
I have learnt so much from your various posts. Regrettably, the translation here is incomprehensible (at least to me). I do see what you are getting at, but the string height is always rising above the frets as you move towards the bridge (although obviously you are lowering it again as you move up the neck (but most of the heavy chord work is lower down), so most of the potential for buzz is still at the low frets. I not that Bob Benedetto builds his necks with NO relief (presumably relying on tension to create relief), and Jazz guitarists are notoriously picky for 2 things: playing with strings like ropes and being very precise over their desired action. Peronally, I never dial in relief and I never have complaints of buzzing.
I'm very thankful you validated my thought process of setting my own guitars up. I noticed with strats Les pauls didn't matter when I put a little relief as they call it in the neck I got fret buzz from about the9th 10th fret on. And when I made my neck perfectly straight I didn't have it anymore at first it Really puzzled me. Because I have an extremely light picking technique. Then I figured it out. When I talked to other guitarists about it oh my God. You would thought I said a guitar made out of concrete or crayons can sound just like your vintage strat or lp. I didn't say it but damn it I wanted too.😮
Another factor is that the neck is thicker near the bridge than near the nut, this causes that under string tension, the effect of the trussrod by itself never could reach that the neck be completely flat. I think the better solution it´s a little bit of relief. These are the questions when you more think about, the more you move away from the solution.
Really interesting explanation thanks! When people talk about zero neck relief presume they mean under string tension ie back bow when strings removed?
I just took my 2017 les paul classic to be accessed for neck buzz. I was told from Sam Ash there’s actually a second neck relief between 12th fret and pickups and my guitar wasn’t built right. So I sent it back to Gibson but I know it had a fret Rock around 15th fret. I hope they fix it because I never really played it being so busy and finally got around to bringing it in. Has anybody ever heard of a 2nd neck relief between 12th and pickups ?
I use the rule of thumb when setting neck relief. I set the neck relief as low as it will go without string buzz, and if the action is too high for my taste, I beat that guitar with a stick that's no larger than the diameter of my thumb. I'm joking of course. If the frets need to be leveled, one would do well to set the guitar for zero relief, level, dress and polish the frets, and then add neck relief to taste.
Chris, something I have wondered regarding this is - on a zero fret guitar might it be better to just have a slight angle to the neck instead of a bow? That would take care of needed relief, and if a person doesn't really play a lot in the upper register. I think I would take the trade off. Your thoughts?
I'm not Chris, but I build all my guitars with a zero fret and no relief dialed in. I rely on string tension to provide any relief. I recommend Roger Bucknell of Fylde Guitars for an excellent discussion of the value of the zero fret. As for neck angle- if you mean neck to body angle, that's not really related to relief and numerous sites give neck angle calculations for optimum string height. Cheers
@@robertnewell5057 What about a situation where you have a reinforced graphite neck that's perfectly straight no matter whether the strings are on it or not ? I had one built as an experiment and the luthier has the option of building one using traditional methods to replace it if this fails. Is that completely flat neck still viable ?
Could the misconception come from the fact that when we loosen the truss rod the action effectively gets raised? I think I’ve always adjusted relief and action together due to this.
Indeed. When overall fret buzz can be so simply adjusted by one screw, it is bound to take root in people's heads that neck relief simply equals buzz adjust.
As far as I can remember. The truss rod was invented by Gibson to counteract the string pull over time. That's why Gibson only uses a one-way truss rod because they know what it really is for.
Correct. Thaddeus J Mchugh received a patent for a guitar neck with a truss rod in 1921 while he was employed at Gibson. It was a one-way design intended to counteract string pull. patents.google.com/patent/US1446758A/en
´‘I’m really over the moon with these Steinberger guitars. The necks are specially made for me. They’re made with no relief, ‘cause I’ve never believed in that. I don’t believe in that theory at all. It doesn’t make sense. I know why they did it on old acoustic guitars with a big action, just because the string where it vibrates the most in the middle is more likely to buzz. But it causes problems all over the guitar. The best way to me is to take two straight lines; so the neck’s made with no relief, and it’s got a 20in radius, so it’s really flat, and Jim Dunlop 6000 frets, so they’re really high. There’s something about the guitar when the neck’s got an underbow in it, it feels soggy in the middle.’´ Allan Holdsworth.
I noticed on my Warwick corvette $$ limited edition bass when checked with a 34" notched straight edge on fret board theres more relief (.016") vs when i take that same tool and lay it on top of the frets instead. And its in a slight different spot. I get .004" with a feeler gauge at largest gap on fret. So now which one should i use? Seems like the actual frets are flatter then the fret board wood. How would you approach this setup? Does it mean the frets were leveled with a neck that wasnt straight to begin with? Thanks for sharing this info!
It sounds like the frets were leveled without checking the condition of the fretboard first. If it were me, I would pull all of the frets and re-radius the fretboard with a radius sanding beam. My goals would be to make sure the radius is correct and that the surface of the fretboard is level with the truss rod in the neutral position of adjustment. Then, I would press in new frets. Sometimes when you install new frets, the pressure of the tangs in the slots can change the fretboard's state of level. If it does, you can correct it with an adjustment to the truss rod in order to level the fretboard. Then, I would proceed with leveling the frets. By doing it this way, if you want a certain amount of relief between your notched straight edge and the fretboard, it will be the same amount and in the same place at the tops of the frets.
Guitars never used to have truss rods and they played with low action. I've played 18th century parlor guitars with straight necks and action lower than a modern shredder's guitar. No buzz anywhere. I've played pre-truss rod era jazz guitars that were the same. I think Gibson invented the truss rod just to speed up production in their factories.
How does it speed production when adding a whole other step into production? Your talking drilling a hole , fabbing the truss rod, setting it in, setting it, adjusting it, sounds like more work added
Question: I have an 1986 Yamaha LL5 that I had refretted but when I got the guitar back I noticed immediately that the truss rod nut was “way loose” like it could pop off. I knew that the rod wasn’t all the way loosened when I gave my guitar to the luthier. Now I don’t know what to do. Any advice or suggestions, please?
As far as I know Russian, it was written by hayter, and his surname "Pupkov" (from the word - bellybutton) is most likely not real. You create excellent materials for those who need a deep understanding of the topic. Please don't pay attention to such people.
Does neck relief help intonation has I have found relief helps lower chords intonation while minimizing string height at the bridge, but I have a fender that I have spent hours making every string note perfectly every where under the 16 fret and still block A cords up the neck are a nightmare to listen to, maybe a plex job and someone who cares like you is the real answer, looks are also very deceiving as I have had guitars without intonation problems but the strings settings look very incorrect to an trained eye, intonation is a nightmare for guitarist that play different styles and everywhere on the neck
I am confused by one thing…. When i see neck setups on fender guitars - they do the technique with the capo, one finger on 17th fret and the feeler gauge in the middle. They go for .010 between the top of the middle fret and the string. Are you saying that you literally go for 0 in the scenario - or does .010 really mean “no relief” in your book? Thanks for these videos.
Too small of a fretboard radius. A flatter radius would probably work better. Or even better, a conical radius with 16” at the heel and 10” at the nut.
@@HighlineGuitars Strats and Teles come with a 9.5" radius. I have a few. Some allow double bends above the 10th fret ... some have choke. Could it be uneven upper frets?
Any experience how neck relief affects the feel of the guitar? It could be all in my head, but I've stumbled on this on forums as well, that adding relief makes strings feel slinkier, and reducing relief makes them stiffer. Presumably because the neck with more relief "bends" more when you bend a string. On one hand this makes no sense to me because you still have to apply the same amount of force if you want to bend the string to a certain pitch no matter if the neck bends or not, but on the other hand I do feel like guitars with more neck relief are easier on the fingers with slinkier feeling strings. Thanks in advance if you can shed some light on this subject.
@@andyglamrock Adding relief shortens the scale by a fraction of a micron and in that regard is absolutely impossible to have any affect on string tension.
I *HATE* neck relief. Unfortunately,(in my experience) Unless hou jave the $$$ for it youll probably have to deal with sime neck relief. Its just the nature of the beast. If yoube ever picked up an $8000 guitar and played it, im betting that when you got home and picked up your $800 one that you've put hours and hours of set up into, you were probably very disheartened.
![The Perfect Stratocaster Trem / Vibrato Setup [Floating, Flat Or Blocked?]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/PjVXWyUGpwc/mqdefault.jpg)
Another factor regarding String Relief to consider is that as the string is fretted, and the vibrating length is shortened, the amplitude of the maximum vibrating width is also reduced.
Well said.
Exactly, so neck relief can help!
You are so right! I love this one. Give me no relief or give me a different guitar!
In the 30+ years I have been doing luthier work and over 1000 fret jobs, my determination is that “proper relief” in a neck is the factories way to minimize poor fretwork. A flat neck plays better and sounds better….IF the fretwork is stellar.
You right.. tone much better when flat neck.. but many guitar bass side and trble side always not the same flat and poor fretwork.. i have this problem with gibson lp std, sg vibrola, and fnder american original.. all the guitar had a problem with neck flat bass&trble side
Listen to pops.....
👍👌
Interesting. So if the guitar is playing with a dead straight neck, when the strings are removed the neck will have a degree of backbow?
@@neilmcleanmusic That depends on neck construction. On a 3 or 5 piece Nk with carbon fiber rods there probably isn’t much movement when you take the strings off. With a flat sawn fender style neck, yea there probably is movement.
Your explanation leaves out at least one significant factor that I will briefly mention. As you fret up the neck, the geometry from the fret to the bridge changes. The angle becomes greater. With slight relief in the neck, the center of relief does indeed move up the neck as the geometry changes. With no relief, you have to raise the action to eliminate buzz in the low register, but then the action is overly high in the upper register.
Buzz isn't a problem if you play really lightly. I have a light touch and I honestly don't mind fret buzz or rattle.
I had a Guitar in the shop a few weeks ago for a new Bone nut, and a complete setup. It had .018" of relief at the 9th fret. The owner said he liked the way it played, but 1 nut slot was cut too deep, and he added relief to stop fret buzz. I set the neck up with zero relief, built the new nut, and set the 1st fret action at .009" I completed the setup, and set the relief at .004" I told him to pick up the Guitar, play it for a week, and bring it back for any final adjustments he felt were necessary, and to polish/glue in the new nut. He told me the Guitar (2022 Gibson Les Paul Standard Tobacco Burst) had never played this smoothly. He even gave me a $40 Tip!
There ya go!
I've read all the comments here, and feel that something else needs to be added: With a neck that is dead straight after the instrument is strung and tuned up, the clearance between the string and the fret above another one that's fretted (with a finger, etc) gets increasingly small towards the nut end of the neck (basic geometry). Neck relief helps to reduce this effect, and it's very convenient that necks bow more at the thinner end, which is where the bow/relief is most needed.
Well spoken sir, except let’s not forget you need more clearance going down the neck because the strings vibrate most in the middle. So, the straighter the neck the better
I set my personal guitars up with dead straight necks. If your frets are level you can get super low action with a little or no relief. I also use 8s… things the internet seems to think is impossible (light strings/low action/jumbo frets).
i've only heard rumours, myths haha
Do you play with a light or heavy technique? I like my shreddier type guitars flat with low action and I generally use a lighter technique with more overdrive/ distortion on those.
For most other playing I like a little relief and a little higher action since i play those with heavier technique and cleaner sound.
My technique generally dictates whether the guitar needs relief or not.
@@sunn_bass I use 1.5mm picks and play pretty hard. I’m also a bass player, so I’m used to bashing the strings! I get a nice clean tone.
@@DavidRavenMoon Cheers, a fellow bassist. I play guitar too but bass is my calling (thanks Geddy).
For bass I use fingers and pick depending on the attack I want. I generally use a slight relief for most of my basses, but my fretless is always dead flat.
I am the same. Straight neck and super low action. I like you don't like loads of relief.
The truss rod was introduced to STRAIGHTEN the neck, as it can warp over time or have actually too much relief from high string tension.
When I'm levelling the frets I put a slight bit of pressure on the beam as it travels towards the bridge end of the neck, kind of sloping the frets if you will. After stringing the guitar I'll tighten the truss rod until the fingerboard is flat. Next I lower the bridge to the lowest point just before buzzing occurs. Lastly I give the tiniest amount of neck relief. Providing the the nut is cut appropriately to string gauge I get the lowest action. I'm not saying this is the best method but it's worked best for me.
Chris has soooo much insight and answers no one else has youve bailed me out in a few situations in which im very grateful for so thank you Chris any new viewers stick around you too will learn no matter your skill level this guy knows his stuff long time viewer not much on commenting but you deserve all of the recognition might i add you dont get enough of it thanks again 🙂
best video about neck relief I have found... most people just want to talk about how to adjust it, none seem game enough to discuss it. thanks sir
I will add this when you intonate your g-tar lower your pickups, lower magnetic pull helps strings vibrate freely and helps to stop other strings and harmonics to interfere with the calibration
But then when you put the pickups back up, the guitar will be out of wack surely?
I have a little different take. I go with "dead flat" as much as I can, but some guitar necks are more sensitive to temperature and humidity changes. In those cases I may add a bit of relief to keep from going "over bowed" during seasons when it has that tendency.
Excellent point!
This is exactly my experience. I want enough relief to know there isn't a back bow and ensure low humidity won't create one. If you hang the guitar next to a wood burning fireplace you're on your own.
The neck should always remain straight. The only adjustment should be possible at the saddle (height at the bridge), whilst at the nut it should be low enough.
This way is the optimal compromise and also visually (intuitively) seems to be the right way to adjust the trust rod and keep the neck straight.
I've always put a bit of back bow on my necks, without the strings on. Then when I put the strings on and tune it up, the neck ends up straight and flat. My opinion, a straight flat neck plays, and feels quite nice.
That might also put less stress on the truss rod nut as you adjust without string tension.
What I found is that if there is buzzing between the nut and the 8th or 9th fret its neck relief, buzzing between the 10th to 24th fret it's string height adjustment at the bridge saddles.
A couple things, great video. And what I often find is the fret buzz I have problems with don't usually occur out in the middle, or where max amplitude of the string is, but just one or two frets from where I press the string into a fret. The amplitude isn't largest here but the space for the string is at a minimum. SO it's not a buzz per se, but more of a metallic overtone, almost the way a Citar makes its odd metallic overtones. Sometimes it's just the profile of the fret I'm on. Keep in mind also that as you move up the neck the max amplitude spot changes but, the string gets shorter so the amplitude is overall less, and less likely to buzz. Plus the angle between the 17th fret and above is much steeper, and for that reason gives it more space to vibrate, It gets pretty complicated.
Physics says the fret plane should be a spiral with constant-ish take-off angle for the strings and almost zero clearance at the nut *and* saddles. Lower action = straighter curve, higher action = tighter curve. So really it *is* the truss rod that adjusts action, but because 1/3 of the curve is missing/nonadjustable, you end up having to adjust the saddles to compensate, but in reality the saddle height above the projected curve should be close to zero. If you keep a straight neck and just raise the saddles, then your high frets will be much higher than they need to be, relief prevents that.
Would you mind elaborating on the desired shape of the frets and also how to achieve this? Are are basically saying you want relief, but with fall away at the high frets, so you can have but low action near the nut and saddles? Roughly what relief do you shoot for and how much fall away do you add (if I’m interpreting correctly). Thanks!
Everyone has a different idea about this, some ppl claim dead straight is best, but think about what that would look like for a theoretical 100th feet - clearly ridiculous. The correct shape is a constant angle spiral. Definitely no fall away. (fall away is for poorly made acoustics that fail over time)
In practice you can usually go for straight, level frets with the neck under no tension and let the strings and rod set the relief. Amount of relief depends on your desired playability and tone. Personally I go for 10-12 thou relief (8th fret) and 3.5-4.5 64ths action (12th fret). That should be very playable and clear. You'll be able to bend at the 5th fret and the action will still be low low at the 24th fret (neither of these are true with a dead straight neck).
Shredders will go for lower action (less curve, less relief), which is perfectly fine for what they do - just don't expect it to be very clear sounding.
The other thing to look out for is nut height, if you have a bright sounding guitar you probably need .02 clearance at first fret, otherwise you can get away with lower nut, eg .015 (bright guitars tend to make nut/1st fret buzz sound quite annoying)
it's amazing abd humbling to learn how imperfect the electric guitar is, and still know how much great stuff has been done with them.
Nice description of how and what relief is.
I have some guitars with dead straight necks and others with a little relief. For basses I pretty much always have a tiny bit of relief except for fretless where I want perfectly straight. Lots of factors to consider but especially playing style.
Its weird seeing 2 players try the same instrument with a little relief and it work for one but not the other. Then adjust the relief to perfectly flat and see the reactions can flip.
As always, nice video.
comments like these are very helpful for someone that's learning like myself, ty for this. the video also was helpful in that it describes the movement up the neck upon fretting for the max oscillation.
@@staleyexplores Thanks. So much depends on preference and playing technique.
Opinions by prominent builders varies too. Roger Sadowsky recommends and says on his website the he's "had the best success with the neck essentially dead flat.”
On the other hand, Paul Reed Smith recommends on his company's website "Using a capo at the first fret, measure the distance from top of fret to bottom of string while depressing the string at the 1st and last fret: Relief for PRS guitars should measure .3/64" - .6/64" (.1mm - .3mm) at the 8th fret."
Note those fractions have .3 and .6, not whole numbers so that equals around 4 thousandths and 9 thousandths of an inch.
I'm not going on a limb and say either Roger Sadowsky or Paul Reed Smith is incorrect.
@@staleyexploreswoah hey another Staley!! Don’t see that very often! Cool man, our line went through Missouri, to Kansas, and then Arizona. I broke code and moved back to south East. Them damn staleys are nothin but dirty nomad hippies 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@TheyFearUAwake definitely a name I am proud to own for a little while 💜! Thanks for dropping me a line! Think I was named after my great uncle from Tennessee. Cheers friend!!😎
That makes a lot of sense, you just answered why I have like a neck with no relief, Thanks!
I have xcort floid rose guitar
I was trying to keep my action low
Than started Fret buzz at 15,16 frets in 2nd string
Notes were sharp in all frets after doing intonation also
I thought i need more neck relief
But the theory of neck relief hit me hard i did lot of research
As my experience i have played lot of guitar with straigh neck easy to play and sounds good
Than finally after so many research i came across this video and did made my neck straight
Now my action is low
I raised a little bit lower bridge
And now my notes are also in pitch perfect
I guess guys with floid rose know the pain
Now i will wait for neck to adjust nicely and see
Thanks for the video.
Important note:
I tighten the thrust rod really carefully
Cause with my past experience I have already broken my thrust rod and have it changed so while tightening or loosening make sure to be gentle
And if it's not moving at all don't put too much force or a quick force just try some other day or take it to a professional so they can do it
Nothing is worse than a broken thrust rod, your neck will be like a real bow.
Not at all what I expected. Excellente’. Thank you 🤙🤙
Excellent explanation. One thing I started experimenting with 4 or 5 years ago is carving relief into the frets themselves, for the very reasons you described, using a Rectify Master Katana. Sometimes I even combine fallaway with relief when contouring the frets like this. I use a digital neck relief gauge to precisely set the curvature of the tool, and sand in an X pattern under string tension.
Typically I only ever do this on the Low E and A strings, or bass string equivalents. I recently was working on a Warwick 6 string bass, and the only thing that ended up solving this nasty low string buzz was carving relief into the frets with the lowest point of relief at around the 13th fret. I also added fallaway on top of this. And not too long before that, I was working on a ukulele with a similar issue, solved almost the same way.
Being able to select *where* to add relief and exactly *how much* to add is a huge, huge advantage. Again, for the exact reasons you described. And of course being able to test your work as you go by using your ears and playing the instrument immediately after each brief contouring session.
Just as you pointed out in the video, people tend to think "more relief = less buzz," but many times more relief can actually make the buzz *worse* depending on where that buzz is.
I've come to prefer dead straight necks on all my guitars, with a couple to a few thousandths of relief carved into the frets *only* under the Low E and A strings, and only as needed.
And man. The nightmares about the hundreds of guitars and basses that have come in with buzzy Low E and A strings and the buzz wouldn't go away even with raising the action or inducing more relief into the neck. I can see the appeal of building your own guitars from scratch, because the stuff that's out there in the wild, well. You never know what you're going to get. To use a phrase my mentor used many times during my apprenticeship, it can get "muy ugly."
That's really interesting, I'm building a Frankenstein "Basher" bass for myself right now, just a quickie build that is going to be a DGAF instrument and, due to the fact I'm fitting a neck that doesn't belong to the body, I needed to rout out the pocket so I decided to experiment with a slight break angle and so far, it's looking really good but the neck needs some love as it's a factory second.
I need to run the notched edge and rocker over the frets and see where we are but I think that I'll give your method a try if I find myself up against the same problems you described as I certainly have on other build in the past.
@@restojon1 Let me know how it goes! I usually start with leveling the frets flat with the neck completely straight, under full string tension.
Any buzzes that remain after leveling flat, with the neck as straight as possible under full string tension, I address with the aforementioned techniques. Of course, you can also do this with the 'old school' method of leveling fret with the neck straight and the strings removed.
Same thing at the end of the day. All final fine-tuning will be done under string tension with an understring tool, and using these techniques if necessary.
I don't think I've ever needed to carve relief into the frets on the treble string side. But with bass strings, it might be necessary in some cases due to how big they are.
It's possible to just use a flat beam, and put the neck into a back bow manually with the truss rod. David Collins uses a technique where he actually manually flexes the neck into a back bow by pressing the back of the neck (around the 7th fret) against a pivot, and then levels with a full length beam. He actually also pivots the neck in the *opposite direction* for the treble side -- pushing the neck into a slight forward bow before leveling the treble side. Then leaving the middle straight, and back bowing it for the bass side.
I learned about his methods on the official luthier's forum after sharing my own method of using the Katana or another understring beam to carve relief into the frets.
For my money, the Katana is the most practical and versatile way as you're not limited to the flexion of the neck dictating the lowest point of relief.
Thanx for the tips, espacially about the E and A string. Seems to be a more common problem.
Did some fadeways but never thought of a carved relief.
Hi, I was wondering if your techniques work on a completely flat neck that’s straight regardless of whether or not strings are tensioned on it ? It’s using a D tube and it’s very stiff. Luthier friend said it doesn’t bend even under string tension and can’t provide relief. Shaping it in the feet leveling itself would be an alternative
@@billhuey8866 It should work for sure. Let me know if you try it!
My opinion as a 45 year player and tooler lol,is knowledge is power, learn as much as you can, in the end I’ve played music with people that can take the worst guitars and make them sound like a top of the line instrument, I would play it after them and say I must have something to learn or want to quit altogether! Don’t quit you will make it to that level if you have enough desire, there are videos where people play SRV on 1 foot long plastic kids guitars that impress you more than SRV on a real one.
I quit using adjustable truss rods in favor of a carbon fiber "D-tube" inlayed the length of the neck. Ie, it forced the neck dead straight and will never arch. No issues with action at all.
I asked a friend to build a neck using that D tube for a baritone neck. It’s completely straight even under tension he said. Question here is: How do you set relief for it if necessary ? I’m researching this not as a luthier but as a person interested in this topic cause there’s this view that relief is needed and other holding the view that a straight is what’s optimal
Relief raises the string action, which usually prompts a guitarist to lower his bridge to compensate for the extra string height. However, it usually brings back the buzz he was attempting to get rid of by adding relief. Eventually his guitar ends up with too much neck relief, which causes more buzzing (above the 12th fret) and an uncomfortable playing action too. Now, he's looking for another guitar... factory set-ups usually always suck. They have "happy medium settings" to disguise bad fret work, even if the instrument has been marketed as "plek'd". The only way is to get a skilled tech to set it up for your hands and preferences.
Finally. A proper explanation.
So interesting. I have always set this sort of by request, and very much by trial and error. If I have a very heavy picker or strummer, a bit more relief. Finger style? nearly flat, unless a buzz starts, but frankly, I prefer curing buzz with the saddle, nut, and frets. It seems electric players can tolerate a bit more fret buzz for the sake of very low action. Jazz guys seem to like the action a bit higher, so the buzz takes care of itself if the neck and frets are OK. Also fretboard radius seems to make a difference. Great explanation.
Thank you very much and that makes perfect since ! Now I can actually fix my guitar
I'm starting now in the craft. Trying to figure out the science behind a good setup. really hard stuff.
Same here, I’m going crazy
Neck relief is a huge myth. In 2007 I bought a guitar with a perfectly strait neck. I brought it back into the store because of the fret buzz, and the store
owner said the neck was "too strait". He "fixed" the problem by turning the truss rod instead of checking for high frets. That guitar was pretty crappy anyway, but the idea of neck relief stuck with me until I started building guitars last year. That is when I realized that neck relief is B.S. and usually is added to a crappily fretted instrument, or when someone can't figure out how to fix the fret buzz. There are alot of guitar players out there that actually believe there neck has to have relief.
My peers growing up told me that a guitar must have relief at the 10th fret, and I completely agree with you, it is to easy to turn a truss rod than to have the proper tools and experience to correct a very delicate problem, I’m a protectionist when it comes to intonation, but don’t spend any time on chording the guitar correctly! My uncle could make even a plastic kids guitar sound incredible, he told me “the musicians make the music not the instruments “,watching him I have no choice but to believe it’s true.
Fret buzz is fine. You don't hear if like myself your a really light player. Even as a Brian may fan, bm gear, owner and user, you can tell Brian has fret buzz as his frets have never been replaced. I like a straight neck and super low action. I don't like upbow at all. Personal preference. ;)
when they put the adjustment at the heel of the neck to begin with,it kinda indicates you should'nt be diddling with it every little whip-stitch, but instead is a preventative reinforcement to keep the bow and arrow thing from occurring. The Geometry of those strings is literally "Math Rock"😉
It all has to do with the standing wave of the string vibrations. The largest wave will always be at the mid point in any length of string. The higher the note the shorter the string the smaller that standing wave gets. Therefore less and less relief is needed as notes go up. This is why only the center of the neck gets the relief. To account of the larger standing wave of the lowest notes..
Relief is often not necessary on guitars where the strings gradually ascend to the bridge. And that is the case with most guitars.
Yes when you press a fret the point of max excursion move forward but the amplitude decrease constantly.
The max amplitude is with open strings and it's located in the middle of the neck, roughly.
Thank you for providing Informative videos.
Please note I like the necks on my guitars to be dead straight as an arrow with NO relief.
I’ve been told by the local “luthiers” that all guitars have to have relief to prevent string buzz.
I know this is BS because I’ve had guitars with straight necks and low action and they did not have string buzz…the luthiers had the audacity to tell me that I’m not remembering my guitars correctly because all guitars have string buzz with low action that I prefer.
Correct me if I’m wrong:
If the neck is straight as an arrow with no relief or back bow and the nut slots are cut just right and the bridge and saddles are the right height - the strings should run parallel with the neck and not buzz.
Please advise.
Cheers
In most cases where the neck is dead flat, the strings aren't exactly parallel with the frets. They gradually climb higher toward the bridge. You want that so the strings will have room to vibrate without buzzing off the upper frets.
@@HighlineGuitars Thank you for responding. Yes, the strings do have a gradual climb toward the bridge. Allow me to amend my question: Can I have a dead flat neck with no string buzz? or am I not remembering correctly the necks on my other "shredder" guitars from years ago (as I was told by the luthiers) :)
@@Spaceman-jo5mz Yes you can. However, a normal relief of .008” is almost impossible for most people to detect. It feels flat. Therefore, what you may have remembered as dead flat may not have been.
You have helped me out a lot with this video
Nice explanation. Thank you Chris.
thanks to chris and also the commenters here that confirm my suspicions. I have been playing and doing my own guitar setups for a very long, but never paid any attention to "neck relief" until recently. I've always set my neck flat, and my frets even and smooth, and then lowered the bridge until the strings were low and even.
Suddenly I start hearing about and seeing "neck relief" and I wondered 😕 have I been doing something wrong all these years? Judging by the vid, the comments, and my own setup results over the years, NOPE. I love the comment about neck relief just being a manufacturers cheap solution to poor fretwork. That is probably exactly correct. I plan on producing my own guitars and they won't be needing any such "feature". Just good old craftsmanship works the best imo.
Much success to you🎉🎉🎉 I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your kindness and support to helping the guitar community
I think one crucial aspect of neck relief is that the trussrod reinforces the neck and helps adjusting the relief but there's still plenty of elements to take into consideration! Necks will usually be different to each other in how they handle the pressure of the strings. Just because you measure relief at a certain point, the neck could have a wildly different curve compared to another neck set at the exact same relief! This is really something most youtube videos and blogs skip! And then the 'simple subject of relief' even goes way further in depth with subjects such as fret compression and sanding the fretboard etc
It's invaluable to learn how to read a neck! And it takes a looong time to learn all these small details because not all youtube channels are as helpful as this one! A great way to find the relief that suits you is to set it up with just enough room for the first few frets to vibrate and not too much whereas you will run into buzzing in the middle and higher up the neck. I prefer as straight as I can get away with; so for electrics usually 5 thou and for acoustics dead straight!
The truth is having a fine tune instrument is a real pain in the brain!!! Because to obtain this the nut is cut with very little life left , everything has very little room for wear and or change, hours of work lost in a short time to usage or change in environment. Perfect intonation is as easy as learning how to correct intonation problems with muscle memory and hand control which is possible lol
Very insightful, Chris. Thanks.
A straight neck sounds like nails on a chalkboard to me, lower strings don't resonate fully and even if it's not buzz per se the immediate frets rob a lot of tone and sustain. I need about 0.030 as per Fender specs measured at the 8th between 1st and 17th fret otherwise it's torture. And the bending gets much easier. I don't have to punish my fingers with the extra tension a bone straight neck makes
you explain things so well
Cool blueprints on your site.
To get the lowest possible fret action the fret board has to have a slight rise in the fretboard from about the 10th fret on up to the 22nd fret. This makes your stings as low as they possible can be all the way up the neck. This is tricky to do! But is the real best way to get a guitar close to perfect. So start ripping your fretboards off guys ?????????
I run a machine shop and I used to build guitars. I'm currently experimenting with some really thin aluminium necks and richlite fretboards. Theres no truss rod in the neck and I'll be interested to see how it pans out as I've always thought having a truss rod is better than not but regarding this build the aluminium is significantly more rigid than wood but I can't be sure as it's a prototype. I'm debating installing some carbon fibre rods to give it even more rigidity. Be interested hear your thoughts. Cheers Man Jack
I have learnt so much from your various posts. Regrettably, the translation here is incomprehensible (at least to me). I do see what you are getting at, but the string height is always rising above the frets as you move towards the bridge (although obviously you are lowering it again as you move up the neck (but most of the heavy chord work is lower down), so most of the potential for buzz is still at the low frets. I not that Bob Benedetto builds his necks with NO relief (presumably relying on tension to create relief), and Jazz guitarists are notoriously picky for 2 things: playing with strings like ropes and being very precise over their desired action. Peronally, I never dial in relief and I never have complaints of buzzing.
I'm very thankful you validated my thought process of setting my own guitars up. I noticed with strats Les pauls didn't matter when I put a little relief as they call it in the neck I got fret buzz from about the9th 10th fret on. And when I made my neck perfectly straight I didn't have it anymore at first it Really puzzled me. Because I have an extremely light picking technique. Then I figured it out. When I talked to other guitarists about it oh my God. You would thought I said a guitar made out of concrete or crayons can sound just like your vintage strat or lp. I didn't say it but damn it I wanted too.😮
Another factor is that the neck is thicker near the bridge than near the nut, this causes that under string tension, the effect of the trussrod by itself never could reach that the neck be completely flat. I think the better solution it´s a little bit of relief. These are the questions when you more think about, the more you move away from the solution.
Really interesting explanation thanks! When people talk about zero neck relief presume they mean under string tension ie back bow when strings removed?
I just took my 2017 les paul classic to be accessed for neck buzz. I was told from Sam Ash there’s actually a second neck relief between 12th fret and pickups and my guitar wasn’t built right. So I sent it back to Gibson but I know it had a fret Rock around 15th fret. I hope they fix it because I never really played it being so busy and finally got around to bringing it in. Has anybody ever heard of a 2nd neck relief between 12th and pickups ?
You have the dreaded "S" curve!
I use the rule of thumb when setting neck relief. I set the neck relief as low as it will go without string buzz, and if the action is too high for my taste, I beat that guitar with a stick that's no larger than the diameter of my thumb. I'm joking of course. If the frets need to be leveled, one would do well to set the guitar for zero relief, level, dress and polish the frets, and then add neck relief to taste.
Sorry if this has been covered. I see your updated neck rest and wondered if there is a video on that? I searched but didn't find anything. Thanks!
Sorry, no video.
Chris, something I have wondered regarding this is - on a zero fret guitar might it be better to just have a slight angle to the neck instead of a bow? That would take care of needed relief, and if a person doesn't really play a lot in the upper register. I think I would take the trade off. Your thoughts?
I'm not Chris, but I build all my guitars with a zero fret and no relief dialed in. I rely on string tension to provide any relief. I recommend Roger Bucknell of Fylde Guitars for an excellent discussion of the value of the zero fret. As for neck angle- if you mean neck to body angle, that's not really related to relief and numerous sites give neck angle calculations for optimum string height. Cheers
@@robertnewell5057 What about a situation where you have a reinforced graphite neck that's perfectly straight no matter whether the strings are on it or not ? I had one built as an experiment and the luthier has the option of building one using traditional methods to replace it if this fails. Is that completely flat neck still viable ?
i played with low action and straight neck its ok but kind of felt soulless a bit of relief gives you better playing experience
Could the misconception come from the fact that when we loosen the truss rod the action effectively gets raised? I think I’ve always adjusted relief and action together due to this.
Indeed. When overall fret buzz can be so simply adjusted by one screw, it is bound to take root in people's heads that neck relief simply equals buzz adjust.
As far as I can remember. The truss rod was invented by Gibson to counteract the string pull over time. That's why Gibson only uses a one-way truss rod because they know what it really is for.
Get your tin hat ready, fella
Correct. Thaddeus J Mchugh received a patent for a guitar neck with a truss rod in 1921 while he was employed at Gibson. It was a one-way design intended to counteract string pull. patents.google.com/patent/US1446758A/en
@@HighlineGuitars Thaddeus J McHugh!! What a name!! He deserves to be remembered for that alone
´‘I’m really over the moon with these Steinberger guitars. The necks are specially made for me. They’re made with no relief, ‘cause I’ve never believed in that. I don’t believe in that theory at all. It doesn’t make sense. I know why they did it on old acoustic guitars with a big action, just because the string where it vibrates the most in the middle is more likely to buzz. But it causes problems all over the guitar. The best way to me is to take two straight lines; so the neck’s made with no relief, and it’s got a 20in radius, so it’s really flat, and Jim Dunlop 6000 frets, so they’re really high. There’s something about the guitar when the neck’s got an underbow in it, it feels soggy in the middle.’´ Allan Holdsworth.
I noticed on my Warwick corvette $$ limited edition bass when checked with a 34" notched straight edge on fret board theres more relief (.016") vs when i take that same tool and lay it on top of the frets instead. And its in a slight different spot. I get .004" with a feeler gauge at largest gap on fret.
So now which one should i use? Seems like the actual frets are flatter then the fret board wood. How would you approach this setup? Does it mean the frets were leveled with a neck that wasnt straight to begin with? Thanks for sharing this info!
It sounds like the frets were leveled without checking the condition of the fretboard first. If it were me, I would pull all of the frets and re-radius the fretboard with a radius sanding beam. My goals would be to make sure the radius is correct and that the surface of the fretboard is level with the truss rod in the neutral position of adjustment. Then, I would press in new frets. Sometimes when you install new frets, the pressure of the tangs in the slots can change the fretboard's state of level. If it does, you can correct it with an adjustment to the truss rod in order to level the fretboard. Then, I would proceed with leveling the frets. By doing it this way, if you want a certain amount of relief between your notched straight edge and the fretboard, it will be the same amount and in the same place at the tops of the frets.
Nice! I subscribed. Cheers.
Totally agree.
Guitars never used to have truss rods and they played with low action. I've played 18th century parlor guitars with straight necks and action lower than a modern shredder's guitar. No buzz anywhere. I've played pre-truss rod era jazz guitars that were the same. I think Gibson invented the truss rod just to speed up production in their factories.
Gibson invented the truss rod because their necks are made of Mahogany which is prone to excessive bow.
How does it speed production when adding a whole other step into production? Your talking drilling a hole , fabbing the truss rod, setting it in, setting it, adjusting it, sounds like more work added
Exactly! You were talking about relief and I'm like: That's BS! And then you kept talking and I'm like: Yeah, exactly! Simple physics :)
Question: I have an 1986 Yamaha LL5 that I had refretted but when I got the guitar back I noticed immediately that the truss rod nut was “way loose” like it could pop off. I knew that the rod wasn’t all the way loosened when I gave my guitar to the luthier. Now I don’t know what to do. Any advice or suggestions, please?
Have a conversation with the person who did the work.
I tend to make them as straight as possible and usually the string tension provides some "natural" relief.
So if I have no fret buzz on any string until the 12th fret I should set no relief? A complete flat neck? Thanks
Which string is going to have the greatest amplitude. A 5 foot string or a 5 inch string??
It depends on the amount of tension on the strings.
cool haircut!
As far as I know Russian, it was written by hayter, and his surname "Pupkov" (from the word - bellybutton) is most likely not real. You create excellent materials for those who need a deep understanding of the topic. Please don't pay attention to such people.
Does neck relief help intonation has I have found relief helps lower chords intonation while minimizing string height at the bridge, but I have a fender that I have spent hours making every string note perfectly every where under the 16 fret and still block A cords up the neck are a nightmare to listen to, maybe a plex job and someone who cares like you is the real answer, looks are also very deceiving as I have had guitars without intonation problems but the strings settings look very incorrect to an trained eye, intonation is a nightmare for guitarist that play different styles and everywhere on the neck
you are definitely very analytical
I am confused by one thing…. When i see neck setups on fender guitars - they do the technique with the capo, one finger on 17th fret and the feeler gauge in the middle. They go for .010 between the top of the middle fret and the string. Are you saying that you literally go for 0 in the scenario - or does .010 really mean “no relief” in your book?
Thanks for these videos.
I go for 0.
indeed relief wont fix fret buzz on higher frets its either a bridge problem or higher fret
I was just wondering does neck relief affect string tension at all? sorry if I missed the answer in the video
Not enought to worry about.
Yes a great deal. Strings feel way looser. But lowering your action does the same effect
At 10th fret and above, what causes choke-out on double-tone bends on E or B string?
Too small of a fretboard radius. A flatter radius would probably work better. Or even better, a conical radius with 16” at the heel and 10” at the nut.
@@HighlineGuitars Strats and Teles come with a 9.5" radius. I have a few. Some allow double bends above the 10th fret ... some have choke. Could it be uneven upper frets?
@@RideAcrossTheRiver Yes. Also adding fret fall off can help.
@@HighlineGuitars Can that be done with a simple fret file? Or is it a job best left to a pro?
George Benson..no neck relief..RIP Larry Melero..I played GBs stage guitars..he used Darrio 13 chromes didnt like Thomastiks
Sooo in theory the angle of the dangle is relative to the heat of the meat!
@@dannyturner7967
With each ooze of the booze
It'll get smoother and better
PS : no sorry for the bad puns
Ха, официально на Русского парня обратили внимание!)))
это работало в фильме Армагеддон (я учу русский)
You're like Steve Jobs of guitar world
String gauge and bad frets can have you all messed up! Lol
Any experience how neck relief affects the feel of the guitar?
It could be all in my head, but I've stumbled on this on forums as well, that adding relief makes strings feel slinkier, and reducing relief makes them stiffer. Presumably because the neck with more relief "bends" more when you bend a string.
On one hand this makes no sense to me because you still have to apply the same amount of force if you want to bend the string to a certain pitch no matter if the neck bends or not, but on the other hand I do feel like guitars with more neck relief are easier on the fingers with slinkier feeling strings.
Thanks in advance if you can shed some light on this subject.
If it’s in your head, there is nothing I can say that will matter.
Adding relief effectively shortens the neck scale, hence decreasing string tension to reach the same note. Lowering your action does the same thing
@@andyglamrock Adding relief shortens the scale by a fraction of a micron and in that regard is absolutely impossible to have any affect on string tension.
Can only like once :/
I *HATE* neck relief. Unfortunately,(in my experience) Unless hou jave the $$$ for it youll probably have to deal with sime neck relief. Its just the nature of the beast. If yoube ever picked up an $8000 guitar and played it, im betting that when you got home and picked up your $800 one that you've put hours and hours of set up into, you were probably very disheartened.
Maximum amplitude vibration is always in the middle between 2 endless points of string, say in other words. Simple phisycs.
Thanks, Captain Obvious!
@@HighlineGuitars😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂