Also oh my god I cannot believe that I forgot to include this but Arya literally named her direwolf after a queen who saved her people from Valyrian/dragon tyranny, which seems relevant.
I do have to say that Maegor is very accomplished. He saved house Targaryen from extinction by extinguishing the faith. Great video BTW. What do you think of the idea that Jorah will kill Dany in ASOIAF?
Interesting bit about Maegor, he didn't have any kids at all and the Targaryen line is not descended from him at all. Dany doesn't have the blood of Maegor at all, none of the Targaryens do. The line continued through Aenys's kids instead, leading to Jaehaerys on the throne. This could be foreshadowing that Dany's line will end, and that the Targaryens will either end completely or continue in a different line, either Aegon's or Jon's.
I think one of bigest failure of GoT compare to ASOIAF is shifting perspective outside of POV characters without acomodating for personal bias. Dany see herself as heroic queen bringing justice and freedom but she has more common with Eren Yeager bringing doom.
Ye shes bringing fire breathing monsters she can barely control, dothraki screamers who raid and pillage as a way of life and an army of eunuchs who have been raised as slaves for one purpose and one purpose only, for war.
2 роки тому+64
Oh wow. Arya killing Dany would be amazing - and maybe why they chose to have her kill the Night King in the show. Arya spends a lot of time travelling through the ruined landscape of war, seeing the impact of the great game of thrones on ordinary people. If Dany inflicts that on Westeros, there's no reason she wouldn't become Arya's target.
LOL yeah I heard that a lot as well and I'm like... okay but Arya is going to be chill about someone seeking power at the expense of the Starks? Doubt it.
@@Nihilanth yes. Seeking power. Dany could’ve allied herself with the North instead of subjugating them. Plus if the NK didn’t fall at Winterfell then there wouldn’t be a kingdom to rule so it was in her interest to take her dragons and army up north.
The thing is how often asoiaf fans dismiss some lines or thoughts from the characters as not important because it doesn't align with their personal interpretation of the characters or the books, without taking into account what the author may be trying to say. I don't think the Maegor-Dany association you made is a reach. George sat there and thought it was ok to write Dany associating herself with Maegor. One could argue that maybe no, Dany is not as bad as Maegor was, but George may be trying to say something important from a narrative perspective. And considering how meticulous he is, and how he likes the "symmetry of it", that's probably the case. I like the idea of Arya killing Dany, I think it makes perfect sense, for all the things you already said here. And some of their chapter transitions seem to point to that direction too. I also believe that Jon may have a role to play in all of this. After all, there's a lot of negative foreshadowing between Jon and Dany, and while I don't think he will be the one to actually kill her, I think he could be an accomplice. Great video and interesting subject! ❤️
Thanks! And I totes agree, I mean the very fact that George included that in the books does mean something, even if it doesn't necessarily mean what I think it means. Plus, just the very fact that he went out of his way to explain the specifics of Maegor's death and that his death was so weird makes it seem like there is importance to it beyond just some tidbit of worldbuilding. I think Jon probably has a role to play in Dany's death as well, but to be frank I just don't think he has the necessary skills to do it himself, or at least by himself.
It kind of works as a way for Arya to choose life over her morbid fascination with death. But I think her killing Daenerys would probably work better for that.
I agree! I think most people seem to always forget the core idea of the faceless man, a kindly man even suggest that they had a share cause of the doom of valyria. And in asoiaf their representation is Arya..so I believe Arya in the end would be the one who kill the dragons and the dragon queen. She will slay some the others too I think, but not ending the long night/night king. That was Jon and Bran's arc. And if you read the books again you'll find that these two girls have some parallel in the first book, but then move away to become the opposite in the later books. And I just love to speculate everytime Martin would inscript the words "no one" in lines and paragraph it was meant for arya. No one could hear meaning arya could hear or no one could kill meaning arya could. Martin is a wizard of words
Something about your videos makes me feel like you've really grokked something about the way Martin writes. The parallel you've drawn here between the ways Dany and Arya experience the horrors of war feels so much more in line with what a pacifist like Martin would write than most other theories I've heard. And even if it's not exactly what happens, this is 100% the kind of analysis Martin has been writing for. Only just found you recently, and I'm super super impressed. Liked, commented, subscribed. I even clicked the stupid bell.
Arya was a champion of the people too just like Dany. Everyone in her list of names was someone who caused harm to others who could night fight for themselves all the way down to the butchers boy. Both Arya and Dani had a lot in common. Both came from wealth and was raised as a commoner. I think that they would have been enemies too, because it changed and shaped the character very differently
Idk, I'd like it to be Jaime, mirroring the choice he made with her father and possibly in revenge for getting Brienne killed somehow. Although I suspect that might happen with Cersei instead. Maybe he kills both, he is the "kingslayer" after all. Alternatively, someone else has written out a long well thought out comment about it being Jon, how they're being set up as lovers but he's going to have to choose duty vs love
I stumbled on the idea that he actually kills the Night King, turning his nickname from slander into reverence. He could even use his golden hand to block/lessen a deadly blow, surprising the white walker*. That would be his worldly redemption, with killing Cersei being his emotional redemption. *He shouldn't be the only one involved in killing him, but maybe the final nail in the coffin
It seems like a massive part of Arya’s journey should occur in Winds because her turnaround is definitely directly tied to Lady Stoneheart, witnessing Red Wedding 2.0 and reuniting with Gendry at the same time. She’ll have a massive mental breakdown and identity crisis, but it seems to me that the new person she becomes will be defined by fighting the White Walkers. She’ll be fighting the personification of death, rather than worshipping death (faceless men). But I never considered how much can be gained from her killing Dany. I always learn so much from these videos, awesome stuff.
Lovely video! I just want to add that Daenerys’s response to the food question was like another reminder that she cares more about her dragons and her conquest for the throne than other peoples safety. A child got burned to death because of Drogon after all…
Yes she ended up locking the other two dragons (which I applaud), but its weird how the writers just straight up ignore the issue of how wild the dragons are. Why not write Daenerys learning how to tame them or something? After Drogon saves her in Meereen its just magically goes away 🤦🏾♀️
Yeah, it's a very interesting juxtaposition that seems to indicate that out of the two sides of Dany, the one who wants to be a decent ruler and the one who wants to conquer and take as much power as she can, by the time she makes it to Winterfell she is fully committed to her conquering side. I don't think that she ever had zero care for others, but she would never prioritize the safety and security of human beings in exchange for any of her dragon power, which obviously doesn't reflect well on her leadership skills. And I assume the dropped issue of having wild dragons is just one of the many later-season instances of the writers feeling like something will take too much time and is too much of a pain in the ass to explain so it just ceased to be a thing.
Dany probably mentioned Maegor, because she learned history of her house from Viseris. He was sadistic and petty psychopath and likely was fascinated by ancestor most known for his cruelty.
Great video! I always found it strange that Dany was proud to be descended from maegor the crule and old valyria... Like girl that were all awful people. And yes maybe viserys told her bullshit but it seems she knows exactly what valyrian was and maegor was called the crule... not much explanation needed
Exactly! I know a lot of people are committed to the idea that she is the savior of the world despite GoT, but she constantly ups herself because she is the descendant of slavers and conquerors and subjugators, it seems like a pretty obvious indication that her character arc is going in a pretty dark direction.
LOL yes, like I understand that a subsection of the ASOIAF fandom worships all things Targaryen, but they are ultimately a bunch of ego-driven blowhards who think that they are god's gift to the world because they can use fire lizards to kill a fuckton of people. I really don't get the glorification of their family.
@@HillsAliveYT Tyrells are lannister with flowers and targaryens are lannisters with dragons that how I see it in a way. And yes targaryens are epic and dragons are epic and kingdomstuff is epic... It's epic but not good.
Yeah I actually agree, the Lannisters and the Targaryens have a great deal in common even down to the weird incest aspect, and I think that is almost entirely driven by the fact that they sincerely believe that they are better than everyone else. I also think a great deal of Targaryen "madness" actually comes down to this, I think they tend to lose their shit not because of some inborn mental illness, but largely because they spend their entire lives thinking they're gods among men and expecting to be the greatest being that has ever lived. No one can ever really live up to that idea, so they often go to massive extremes and create chaos because they're so obsessed with being history's main character that they can't cope with the fact that they are literally just people who will probably do nothing of significance or worse, will just fuck the world up even more than it is already. And Tywin and his children (because he ultimately is the root of Lannister toxicity) are just the Targaryens without the dragons because once again they're outrageously entitled and think they're superior to everyone, and thus create a ton of destruction in their quest to be the most important person of all time.
It's probably more likely Jon and Dany's roles will be switched. This show's finale was written by D. Benioff, who fundamentally changed the Trojan War's ending in Troy, removing the gods and fantasy elements whilst having Paris and Helen survive and in love. Dany takes inspiration from, among others, Vedic traditions of Parvati, Durga, and Kali, different aspects of a mother goddess. If Dany goes full Kali in her wrath, using a Dance of Dragons to threaten scorching the earth rather than her own body's dancing on earth, Jon might have to take the role of Shiva and throw himself beneath her dance to save others (Martin has promised another Dance of Dragons in the main storyline). This, like Kali, can snap Dany back to her more motherly Parvati state, and might also fulfill an Azhor Ahai prophecy. Jon being a Nissa figure, the dragon acting as Lighbringer with it's fire being quenched in Snow, possibly allowing Snow to become a combination of a Ice Other and Fire Other. Maybe what Dany is burning is the equivalent of Kali's ashura enemies, Dany's ashura being the Ice Others or magic followers of the demonic Euron Greyjoy.
It's possible Jon will take a role like that but he will still kill Daenerys in the end... sorry... If you watch season 1 again it super hilariously throws it into your face
@@Nihilanth She won't though. She wants what's hers by 'right'. We'll see how Daenerys reacts to someone having more of a 'right' to Westeros (Aegon) than her in the next book.
@@jomckellan that's show Dany only, read the books properly and you'll understand what's the character true motivation. but if you choose to reduce one of the most complex characters in ASOIAF with "she only wants to take what's hers" then you're really dumb. and fAegon Blackfyre doesn't have more right than her. Jon is a bastard and Daenerys is the true heir.
Interesting, but I think Maegor the Cruel was killed by his kingsguard. Maegor wanted to send them all off to their near certain deaths. They had the means, motive and opportunity, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they were the last people that saw him.
The order of the greenhand had a series of interesting videos on Maegor, that actually kind of changed my perspective about him. He was brutal but in the world of ASOIF that's not uncommon, however, it's likely that without him the Faith would've overthrown the Targaryens and destroyed them. The Faith and the masters turned against Aenys(kind Abomination), because he was the product of incest and because he also wanted his children to marry echother, he died and was probably poisoned and left a small child as a king, with a raging rebelion against his house. Cruel as he was house Targaryen woudl've been destroyed without him by the Faith. Maybe that's why Danny mentions him and thinks he was a good example.
Thanks! I know it's a bit of a left-field theory but honestly that Maegor the Cruel shoutout just became a brain worm in my mind from which I could not escape.
I think Jon will kill dany, but he will the person that decides he needs to, nobody will ask him like Tyrion did. There’s themes of hero’s killing their loves, but the first lesson the stark boys learned in GOT is that a lord ought to perform the executions he sentenced.
Great, yet again a really nice video. Whether it makes the most sense or plays out or not it makes a lot more sense than the show. Aryas show arc does seem broken in some way , I guess whatever George told D&D about her ending they couldn't or wouldn't do it. The Daenerys arc seems nonsensical and weirdy sexist, not really George's style. I assume the execution of her arc was too hard. Maybe they both are similar in needing subtle arcs and that's why it went wrong, who knows. Neither really gives meaning or narrative to thier journey. Neither end up very sympathetic by the end , arguably book Cerci is more sympathetic than either who are both a bit souless at times (show only, I still like them in the book). I'm hoping for the best, your senario would be a very satisfying one.
Yeah, actually in retrospect I am both more irritated but also more impressed by Dany's arc in the show, because on the one hand they went very far out of their way to make the surface text of the series make Dany seem like a nearly flawless hero, but on the other they actually telegraphed that Dany was likely a villain from a cinematic and subtextual perspective. One of the fundamental issues with GoT that could never be avoided though is simply, George uses his POV writing to such particular effect that a great deal of the material is completely unadaptable for the screen. They failed to execute Dany's arc properly because they essentially adapted her story that was written from her point of view, but translating it to the screen told that story in a third person point of view, which took a very subjective vision that Daenerys has for herself and treated it like it was objective fact. That is obviously an issue for every character, but given that GRRM seems to have pretty clearly written Dany as a hidden villain in ASOIAF, there was hardly any way to actually make that make sense without conveying Dany as the villain in GoT from the start.
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah that seems true. I wonder what an adaptation would look like that was made after the books were finished, they would need to creatively convey some of these things, and some things couldn't be adapted. But at least they could have a run up , while the show got stuck on portrayals that deviated too much from the core charectors, which is fine until you have an end point in mind that doesn't work. I think they made all of the Lannisters (except Joffrey) too sympathetic as well. They are alot more flawed in the books, while I can see the benefits of that, they seem to be on punishment or redemptive arcs in the books, but the nuances of how they see themselves Vs the truth isn't as well done. I think they'll have a lot of soul searching in the books and some might reject their fathers (terrible) teachings, in the show it's not even an issue. But for sure it's always going to be an obstacle. In terms of Danny if you think there was some decent work telegraphing her as bad. Where do you think it went wrong in terms of the twist being unpopular? For instance, was it enough? The lack of her darker thoughts? The narrative of people around her? I think it's interesting, I didnt care by that point about Dany so I'd be interested in what was done well that I just didn't notice. Thanks
Oh my god so agreed about the Lannisters, I will do a video about it someday but I'm still outraged that book!Tyrion is basically a narcissistic abusive monster while in the show he was basically a hero. I understand that ultimately Peter, Nikolaj, and Lena were essentially such good actors that it was impossible for them to be entirely unsympathetic, but the way in which they whitewashed their characters was very disappointing. And I'm going to go into full film nerd territory here, but it's obvious that D&D and the GoT crew were more filmmakers that novel writers or adapters, because I have a BA in film criticism and my actual job is as an entertainment writer and editor, and from a filmmaking perspective they included a lot of film technique that would make Dany's villainy obvious to people who recognize the references but aren't going to be as clear to people who aren't on the lookout for it. Probably the best example is that in a lot of Dany's "rousing" moments the cinematography pretty directly references Leni Riefenstahl, she directed the propaganda films for Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party and she's one of the most commonly mimicked directors of all time because her propaganda was so effective. She's basically the reason why someone can look at a legion of Stormtroopers in Star Wars and recognize that they're space Nazis even though it's not something that they're super consciously aware of. But in most instances, films or TV shows that reference Riefenstahl create other context clues that we're looking at the "bad guys," whereas GoT went for a straight propaganda-style angles, framing, and scoring when Dany was having a lot of her "Darth Vader" moments. They were shooting her scenes in the exact style of the most effective propaganda of all time, so someone who would recognize what that was would get it but it should come as absolutely no shock whatsoever that the general audience thought that she must be the world's ultimate hero. And score is one of the most effective filmmaking context clues for whether or not what we're seeing is good or bad, and GoT mostly obscured Dany's dark nature because they literally gave her heroic music, it was generally very uplifting with a lot of literal rising notes. However, a lot of her scenes also included very classic "evil" scoring that you almost never hear with any "good" protagonist characters, there's a lot of moments where Dany appears "badass" but the music accompanying the scene is very classically villainous with a descending melody that is often punctuated with a heavy rhythm. LOL it's stupid trying to write it out, but you can probably recall Dany scenes where she had that score that sort of had that "bmmmmm-BOM" sound to it which is very classic bad guy. But again, for the average viewer to actively notice these details is unusual, especially when so much of her material was very uplifted and classically heroic. I also think that quite frankly, a lot of the way in which they filmed Dany was in the style of American propaganda. If you look at the way in which the US likes to portray themselves as a military power in the media vs. what they actually do in real life, Dany actually mirrors that fantastically both in terms of storytelling and actual filmic framing. However, this is a show that is made for an American audience, so to film Dany like she's Captain America for the first 7.75 seasons and then expect the audience to actually be able to reflect and not only change their perspective on Dany's character arc, but to also switch gears from the POV of someone who has spent literally their entire lives absorbing American propaganda and to be able to ask themselves "wait, are we actually the baddies" at the very end is both actually kind of brilliant from GoT's artistic standpoint but also was 100% doomed to fail no matter what because it's asking way too much of a general audience.
@@HillsAliveYT I don’t suppose you could turn this explanation of cinematic language, scoring, and modern propaganda in relation to Dany into an essay, could you? The scenes the paralleled Riefenstahl had always felt a little unnerving to me. I hadn’t even considered how it could relate to American propaganda though in hindsight it makes sense to me.
@@lindaschreifels9889 ABSOLUTELY I would love to do that and have totes planned to for a while, honestly it's one of the most interesting aspects of GoT to me.
I appreciate this perspective. I don't believe that Daenerys is going to be a villain in the books, and generally think she'll die in the war against the others. But I always enjoy new fan theories that contradict what I have come to believe will happen
I think GRRM basically revealed that Dany was always going to go mad, and start a second Dance of Dragons with the rightful heir Aegon (most likely Jon Snow)
Wouldn't want a black cat to startle you, and cause you ACCIDENTALLY, PURELY ACCIDENTALLY, fall onto the blades of the Iron Throne, ending your life. That would REALLY suck...
Being honest, I'll believe Jon's and Dany's romance in ASOIAF when I see it. Because they seem to be polar opposites; and if Jon's character development goes the way it has been going so far in the books, I believe he would just bend the knee if needed to in order to save lives, and basically intending to use her resource for the good of the realm. I don't see him being this much fascinated or stunned by her "noble intentions" or "idealism" (although those simplistic portrayals of her as a hero and him as a loyal, not knowing dog, go into the lore of the seasons 6-8 of GOT). Also, I've never toticed the Maegor the Cruel detail, and it's really a Chekhov's gun of its own class!
Wow! You dropped some major bombs. My mind is fucking blown. First, there's the idea that Maegor was killed by a faceless assassin, which never occurred to me. Then, you propose that Arya take an immediate dislike to Dany, when I always thought the opposite. At least at first. I always imagined that Arya would be in awe of Dany. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still think that is possible, at least at the beginning. Even though I am perhaps naively hopeful that Dany will die a hero, if she dies a villain, that is a fantastic theory as to how it could happen in the books. Wow! *_I'm guessing your 2nd candidate to kill Dany is Jaqen? If you are correct, do you think Arya & Jaqen will ever meet again? If so, for what purpose? Could he fail in his mission to kill Dany, and charge Arya with it before he dies?_*
I love your theories, but I don't agree with your interpretation of Maegor's inclusion in AGoT. Imo, she said Aegon to signify her nature as a conqueror and Maegor to show that she's capable of reigning with fire and blood. Let's not forget that she addresses the Dothraki-people who understand terror and violence and seek that from their khal. Had Rhaego been born, he wouldn't have automatically become the new khal (this isn't Westeros) he'd have to prove himself to the khalasar. That's essentially what Dany is doing in that chapter - trying to prove herself as a reigning khaleesi and trying to keep as many Dothraki as possible to conquer the Seven Kingdoms, hence the Maegor reference.
I think Barristan Selmy could be someone that kills Dany. He could finally make a decision for himself and become a Queenslayer at the end of his life after realizing he wasted his life serving people unworthy of loyalty.
The in universe reason why Maegor is comparatively well known and hated, might be because the sources we have are very pro Jaehaerys and use Maegor to prop up their favorite. It's basically the same thing that happened to Nero in Rome: Nero was unpopular, so after he was dead, he was smeared by every historian ever, to make the new emperor look better. It's basically what Shakespeare did to Richard III: Make the old, unpopular ruler look like a monster, to make his successor look even better by comparison. The IRL reason might be that GRRM wanted to write a novella (or 3) instead of working on Winds.
She is a descendant of Rhaenyra thoughb and she was called King Maegor with teats. maybe Danny was trying to take those claims of the terrible things that men said about Rhaenyra and said let them all things considered Rhaenyra descendents did win the dance of the dragons🤷🏻♀️
If Arya does indeed put lady stoneheart to rest, she might also make the difficult decision to put Jon down, after which she might use his face to kill dany
i'd say that bran can warg anyone or any animal and kill dany. there are a few people who could kill dany. she's still supposed to be betrayed by love, so there's still the possibility that it's jon after all. it can't be jorah because he already fulfilled the "treason by gold" part of the prophecy. sorry for spamming the comments. 😸 edit: wouldn't it be insane if lady stoneheart ends up having a role in dany's death? like, say, she'd do it to protect jon snow whom she mistreated in life but is now protecting as an undead creature? LOL i know it's tinfoil but i couldn't help myself cause it's funny 🤣
Depending on the context, 'betrayed by love' doesn't necessarily mean love for Dany. Dany helping the Starks' defeat the Night King with her dragons is probably going to happen. This might then be used as justification for the Starks' supporting her claim to the throne and forming an alliance. Arya then killing Dany would then be a betrayal. If she does it out of love for the people she met in the river lands, her family, the north, and humanity in general (or any combo there of), then it would be a "betrayal by love," just not love of or for Dany.
@@stareyedwitch "love for the people" is a bit of a stretch. it's more altruism than love. i think it really is going to be jon but the show simply failed the execution (pun intended).
Hi Hill, love the videos. I have a question for you: do you think that the Others will be dealt with first and then the final conflict will be against human foes like in the show? Or will it be the other way around with the Otbers being the ultimate threat?
I think the human threat will be the final battle, given GRRM's love for examining the human heart in conflict with itself I see him making humanity the endgame threat.
@@HillsAliveYT I sort of agree - but I think the Others have to form the grand climax - but much of our attention will always be with the factions of humanity continuing to squabble and politik during the apocalypse. And there will continue to be disputes and feuds after the Others are defeated. But once the Others are defeated, I cant see there being a second, ultimate climax, that we are expected to care even more about. Do you see it like that?
Personally i suspect Maegor was killed by a kings guard. Also i don’t think the Iron Throne will be standing at Daenerys death, i think it will be destroyed with King Landing
In my opinion, I believe Jon will kill Daenerys. George RR Martin has said that A Song Of Ice and Fire is about Jon and Daenerys. Unlike the TV show, which presented them as polar opposites, Jon as a stoic good guy, and Daenerys as an impulsive fiery queen, in the books their stories are parallered and contrasted in a poetic way. Jon is a classic boy with a lot of anger management issues who wants to be a hero and lead the world against the Others, but realizes being a hero is a very difficult task that puts his own values into conflict ( love vs duty), and Daenerys is a fierce but inexperienced young girl who has genuinely good intentions to rule Westerors, but she eventually realizes that the virtue of being a Targaryen is to be Conqueror, as warmonger, a Dragon. Martin wants us to imagine Jon and Daenerys as a romantic union who will save Westerors against the Others, but tragically, the real reason why their stories are so intertwined, is because ones destiny ( Jon) is to destroy the other's ( Daenerys).
Stepped on them, and also woke up with them crawling all over her, and they'd come from the other side of this little wall. I don't know what to think haha
another thing about the dragons, I think they are also the reason why Dany can just x her empathy at any given moment! Not just in the way you describe but internaly through the bond. We know that bonds go both ways with skinchangers and wargs, why not dragon riders? Dragons are reptils and apex predetors with little need for complex social structures and skills, you are a threat so you are an enemy and get eliminated is a very appropriet way of thinking for a dragon, but terrible one for a ruler. Thats why so many people miss the red flags with dany, she has two compleatly different sides to herself, her sweet I want to help everyone self from the beginning and ever since she bonded to the eggs the hairtrigger ruthless one which are constantly at odds with eachother but she does not seam to be aware of that an thats why I think she will go mad.
I think Danny's fate will depend on the order she deals with the Night King, (F)Aegon, Cersei and Euron. I'm guessing the destruction of Kings Landing (after Aegon has captured it, with Danny's dragons igniting the Wildfire caches) would tip Arya into assassinating her, but if Euron is still around, it could easily be him to kill Danny (presumably leaving Jon to claim - or not claim - the Iron Throne). And if Cersei is the last opponent standing after Danny has dealt with the NK, who knows who might kill Danny (maybe Jon)?
Does the fact that she said that she have the blood of Maegor could mean that she IS not really Dany but rather a dragonseed who descent from Maegor ? After all She could in her subconscious mind remember that from what Viserys told her ?
You say that both Arya and Daenerys can still come back from their dark paths. Setting aside what you think will happen in the books, what would their setting aside their dark paths look like to you?
I don't see how she could be descended from maegor when he couldn't have children. Seems like that line has to mean something, like why would she say that if it's not true?
This might actually make sense. I could see a flip flop from the show where Jon defeats the White Walkers but balks at killing Dany because of his honor.
Aegon (young griff) ? Or the long night. Daenerys is not burning kings landing imo maybe Jon connigton will or Daenerys if she fights young griff. I don’t Arya kills Daenerys
as a Daenerys fan till the end (not closed minded) i never thought about this and i like it more (even though it will hurt me), it makes more sense, when the ep aired i was shook it was so stupid like "so all her journey as a faceless girl is for nothing?" Because killing the freys wasn't season finale worthy enough for me. Also i'm not a book reader but i wish Arya was played by a different actress or that maisie would have played her differently (or maybe was the script idk) because most vibes she gave me were "i'm not like other girls" so i was never into her that much so hearing this makes me think a little bit more about her.
I'm desperately clutching to the theory that if Dany dies, she will die a hero, and recede from her darkness before the end of her narrative arc. I feel like my grip on this hope just got a little looser because you played _This Little Piggy_ with it with your splendid theory. Well played!
I strongly believe it will be the Young Griff, since a lot of his arc seems to be given to Jon in the series. But your theory about Arya is also interesting.
I think it’s Arya to do it. All the Starks are wargs and if Dany does attempt to burn down KL, I could see Arya warging into Drogon and kill Dany that way.
Also, while I'm not sure GRRM will have Jon and Dany fall in love- the original plot outline from before GoT was released had Arya and Jon romantically linked. So that would create a love triangle.
@@sgauden02 LOL well I coincidentally posted a video sort of covering the topic like a day or two ago, but essentially because people always interpret prophecy wrong and Rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophecy about the Prince That Was Promised and was focused on having a baby when the world devolved into war largely because of his actions, none of the remaining Targaryens are actually going to fight in the war for the dawn. I actually think GoT may have gotten it half right, but I think that Dany will be too focused on the IT and Jon will waste too much time trying to convince her to help, and while they're still negotiating the Others will come and the people who have already united will be the ones to battle against them. It might be a long shot, but given how anti-war GRRM is, I can't imagine him ever justifying Rhaegar's actions by proving him right in any way.
After S8 Dany fans latched onto Arya as the favorite Star sister, drawing parallels between them while ignoring anti-Valyrian hints in Arya's story, like naming her firewood after Nymeria and crossing to Braavos that was founded by slaves escaping Valyria 🤔 and Sansa become the Stark sister that is seen as an enemy due to ship wars, but book Sansa could be more friendly to Daenerys considering how much she likes the stories of Queen Alysanne, Aemon & Naerys
Noooo! I want her to get Cersei. As for Dany, I will never understand how easy it is for some people make the tone death argument that her freeing the slaves made it worse for them. The only people who’s life got worse were the masters and common free people, I guess. Yes many of the slaves were going hungry or caught the pale mare during her conquest. But when you compare that to the brutality they were facing under the masters: 163 children crucified alive; kids used for follies and fed to bears , lions, tigers alive for mass entertainment & gambling; mutilations; assaults; torture etc. You have to read the books. It’s so upsetting reading about the casual apathy most people had towards the brutal and excessive killings of the slaves in Essos and the smallfolk in Westeros.
Are you actually telling Hills Alive to go read the books? 😶🌫️ That aside... if anyone did read the books, they'd see how Daenerys changed nothing for the slaves but make their lives more chaotic. And she never cared about slavery anyway till it was convenient for her PR image to.
Dany and Jon will rule Westoros as one and the Targaryen dynasty will reign for centuries to come. Give us the Happy ending George! It doesn't all have to be tragic. Plus, that would really subvert our expectations. Seeing how we expect the worst.
Where did Martin say that the ending matches his? I just don’t think it does match and even if it did I think it diverges so much he would never say it matches. It would be so unwise to say it matches . Source
@@HillsAliveYT Thankyou, I suggest watching that source again becuase he really emphasised many ways they are different. 'Theres no way to fit the secondary and tertiary characters in,' 'It could run for 5 more seasons', 'I dont think DnDs ending is gonna be THAT different from my ending because of the conversations we did have ' - this implies GRRM dosent know exactly what DnDs ending is yet. He hasnt seen what they ended up writing at this point.
@@umwha Well I think it's very unlikely that GRRM would say absolutely nothing if the show was wildly different from the books, and my interpretation is different, but I can't say that I'm 100% right so we'll see.
@@HillsAliveYT His silence says it all, I think. I remember when the finale was airing, Martin made no public comment at all. On his Notablog, he made posts casually talking about other shows. No acknowledgement of the finale at all.
@@umwha Fair, but when he has disagreed with something significant on GoT he has directly said it, like with Stoneheart or putting Sansa with Ramsay. But GoT also ended pretty much exactly how I expected the show and book series to end so I'm not inclined to look for ways in which George would indicate that it was wrong in the way that a lot of people who don't think Dany is a final villain seem to look.
What if Arya's motivation to the threat Daenarys poses creates a confrontation, but one where daenarys triumphs instead of Arya? What if the death of Arya drives Jon Snow to the act? Book Arya will all-but-certainly not be the quite hyper-badass-assassin as show Arya as a consequence of Martin's removal of the five-year time jump. This could muddy the waters of Arya simply taking out Daenarys.
Well it kind of happened like that in the show. Dany wasn’t gunning for Arya, but Sansa. That’s I why I thought if anyone was going to kill Dany, it would’ve been Arya cause she definitely will protect her family.
the nod to maegor the cruel seems more about his vicious brother viserys' influence on her. this is a point in dany's arc where she just realized on her own that she's not the weak person that viserys made her believe all her life. this claim to cruelty is also a parallel to the "gold crowning" of viserys by khal drogo. dany steeled herself and watched on as his psycho brother get a humiliating and tortorous death in front of everybody, while telling herself that "a dragon does not burn". this part of her arc is a foreshadowing that she is indeed capable of much cruelty and that other than the horrid viserys, she didn't have a real life mentor to show her the more ennobled characteristics of their ancestors like jaehaerys the conciliator, because the ones viserys would have idolized would have been maegor and the conqueror. in a way, having a brother like viserys really messed her up and made it difficult for her as an adult to not easily resort to cruelty.
That seems like too big a change from the book to the show to not have Jon kill her. At that point it really is an entirely different story and George will have only changed it due to backlash from the fandom.
I really enjoyed the contrast between Arya and Dany. Good job. I wonder though about Jon's role. Arya loves Jon. If Jon loves Dany would Arya betray him? If Dany does get preggers with Jon's kid would Arya kill her nieces or nephew's mother? I think it would be more interesting for Arya to be Dany's Hand of the Queen or be like Varys..a master of whispers. Dany is good at brute strength but she could use someone of Arya's talents.
No, but could have been. Short answer: The clues about Ayra are actually about her killing Aegon the younger (Jaqen Jon’s twin brother) the ?third? (fourth if you count fake nightking Euron) Nightking. For Aegon(Griff) vs Daenerys ending read Oedipus, it’s where “slayer of lies” is from. Sprinkle in Tyrion teaching Aegon(Griff) that dragons are the most important thing. Add a dash of all of Daenerys former servants who “stole” from her are serving Aegon(Griff) (and gave him the treasure, since he is actually the heir not Daenerys). Cook close to a well for Jon Con to jump into (maybe with Sansa) with a very unhealthy dose of dragonfire. For Daenerys first death: Thesus and the Amazons / Romulus and Remus/ Azor Ahai. Either Jon or Arya (less likely) will cauterize a blade in fire to give a pregnant Daenerys a Cesarean birth. She will appear dead, maybe will be. Second death: Jon pushes her on the throne?!?! or stabs her. Drogon gives Daenerys a Targaryen cremation on the throne, splitting 1 kingdom to 7.
I think that Dany is going to die in the fight against the others, dying in Jorah's arms as Jon uses Lightbringer to bring down the others. I think in the book Jon and Dany will be more platonic and will embrace each other as Aunt and Nephew. when Dany learns about Azor Ahai she tells Jon to do the right thing at the right moment to bring an end to the others, sacrificing herself for her people and dying in the arms of the man who loves her most.
it sounds too "cheap" for the books. GRRM already said prophecies shouldn't be taken so literal, so to have jon make an flaming sword with the heart of her lover to save mankind doesn't really fit. imo, Dany is azor ahai. she was born amidst salt and smoke (dragonstone) and reborn from the ashes also in salt and smoke, she has awaken the stone dragons and she has the bleeding star (the red comet), the tale of someone killing it's lover to save the world did happen in book 1, when Dany asphyxiated Drogo. the death of Drogo brought the lightbringer (dragons), the literally opposing force against the white walkers (fire).
Also oh my god I cannot believe that I forgot to include this but Arya literally named her direwolf after a queen who saved her people from Valyrian/dragon tyranny, which seems relevant.
I do have to say that Maegor is very accomplished. He saved house Targaryen from extinction by extinguishing the faith.
Great video BTW.
What do you think of the idea that Jorah will kill Dany in ASOIAF?
Interesting bit about Maegor, he didn't have any kids at all and the Targaryen line is not descended from him at all. Dany doesn't have the blood of Maegor at all, none of the Targaryens do. The line continued through Aenys's kids instead, leading to Jaehaerys on the throne. This could be foreshadowing that Dany's line will end, and that the Targaryens will either end completely or continue in a different line, either Aegon's or Jon's.
They do share blood, though not from being a direct descendant. He was after all son of Aegon and brother (and technically cousin too) of Aenys.
Ok yeah I thought so. Glad it wasn’t just me lol
The family will most likely end completely
I think one of bigest failure of GoT compare to ASOIAF is shifting perspective outside of POV characters without acomodating for personal bias.
Dany see herself as heroic queen bringing justice and freedom but she has more common with Eren Yeager bringing doom.
Ye shes bringing fire breathing monsters she can barely control, dothraki screamers who raid and pillage as a way of life and an army of eunuchs who have been raised as slaves for one purpose and one purpose only, for war.
Oh wow. Arya killing Dany would be amazing - and maybe why they chose to have her kill the Night King in the show. Arya spends a lot of time travelling through the ruined landscape of war, seeing the impact of the great game of thrones on ordinary people. If Dany inflicts that on Westeros, there's no reason she wouldn't become Arya's target.
Heard a lot of opinions during 7 and 8 that Dany and Arya were going to be immediate bestest friends. Very nice to hear a different opinion!
LOL yeah I heard that a lot as well and I'm like... okay but Arya is going to be chill about someone seeking power at the expense of the Starks? Doubt it.
@@HillsAliveYT seeking power? lol
@@Nihilanth yes. Seeking power. Dany could’ve allied herself with the North instead of subjugating them. Plus if the NK didn’t fall at Winterfell then there wouldn’t be a kingdom to rule so it was in her interest to take her dragons and army up north.
@@jjh2456 Oh, the same way the Starks did in the past. Well, serves them right.
Different + stupid
The thing is how often asoiaf fans dismiss some lines or thoughts from the characters as not important because it doesn't align with their personal interpretation of the characters or the books, without taking into account what the author may be trying to say. I don't think the Maegor-Dany association you made is a reach. George sat there and thought it was ok to write Dany associating herself with Maegor. One could argue that maybe no, Dany is not as bad as Maegor was, but George may be trying to say something important from a narrative perspective. And considering how meticulous he is, and how he likes the "symmetry of it", that's probably the case. I like the idea of Arya killing Dany, I think it makes perfect sense, for all the things you already said here. And some of their chapter transitions seem to point to that direction too. I also believe that Jon may have a role to play in all of this. After all, there's a lot of negative foreshadowing between Jon and Dany, and while I don't think he will be the one to actually kill her, I think he could be an accomplice.
Great video and interesting subject! ❤️
Thanks! And I totes agree, I mean the very fact that George included that in the books does mean something, even if it doesn't necessarily mean what I think it means. Plus, just the very fact that he went out of his way to explain the specifics of Maegor's death and that his death was so weird makes it seem like there is importance to it beyond just some tidbit of worldbuilding. I think Jon probably has a role to play in Dany's death as well, but to be frank I just don't think he has the necessary skills to do it himself, or at least by himself.
Yeah GRRM likes to lay these traps for the readers. If we don’t pay attention then we will get caught up.
George also likely concieved of Maegor when he was writing that scene.
Arya killing Danny makes waaaaay more sense than her killing the Night King
Unless dany is the night king? 🕵♂️
"We kinda forgot it would make way more sense to have Jon kill the Night King, so we mixed it up on accident"
It kind of works as a way for Arya to choose life over her morbid fascination with death. But I think her killing Daenerys would probably work better for that.
I agree! I think most people seem to always forget the core idea of the faceless man, a kindly man even suggest that they had a share cause of the doom of valyria. And in asoiaf their representation is Arya..so I believe Arya in the end would be the one who kill the dragons and the dragon queen.
She will slay some the others too I think, but not ending the long night/night king. That was Jon and Bran's arc.
And if you read the books again you'll find that these two girls have some parallel in the first book, but then move away to become the opposite in the later books.
And I just love to speculate everytime Martin would inscript the words "no one" in lines and paragraph it was meant for arya. No one could hear meaning arya could hear or no one could kill meaning arya could.
Martin is a wizard of words
Something about your videos makes me feel like you've really grokked something about the way Martin writes. The parallel you've drawn here between the ways Dany and Arya experience the horrors of war feels so much more in line with what a pacifist like Martin would write than most other theories I've heard. And even if it's not exactly what happens, this is 100% the kind of analysis Martin has been writing for.
Only just found you recently, and I'm super super impressed. Liked, commented, subscribed. I even clicked the stupid bell.
Also it’s weird she mentions Maegor since she’s not Maegor’s descendant but Aenys’
Originally good queen Alysanne was supposed to be Maegor’s Daughter
@@cardd1577 LOL.
Arya was a champion of the people too just like Dany. Everyone in her list of names was someone who caused harm to others who could night fight for themselves all the way down to the butchers boy. Both Arya and Dani had a lot in common. Both came from wealth and was raised as a commoner. I think that they would have been enemies too, because it changed and shaped the character very differently
Idk, I'd like it to be Jaime, mirroring the choice he made with her father and possibly in revenge for getting Brienne killed somehow. Although I suspect that might happen with Cersei instead. Maybe he kills both, he is the "kingslayer" after all.
Alternatively, someone else has written out a long well thought out comment about it being Jon, how they're being set up as lovers but he's going to have to choose duty vs love
I stumbled on the idea that he actually kills the Night King, turning his nickname from slander into reverence. He could even use his golden hand to block/lessen a deadly blow, surprising the white walker*.
That would be his worldly redemption, with killing Cersei being his emotional redemption.
*He shouldn't be the only one involved in killing him, but maybe the final nail in the coffin
It seems like a massive part of Arya’s journey should occur in Winds because her turnaround is definitely directly tied to Lady Stoneheart, witnessing Red Wedding 2.0 and reuniting with Gendry at the same time. She’ll have a massive mental breakdown and identity crisis, but it seems to me that the new person she becomes will be defined by fighting the White Walkers. She’ll be fighting the personification of death, rather than worshipping death (faceless men).
But I never considered how much can be gained from her killing Dany. I always learn so much from these videos, awesome stuff.
Lovely video! I just want to add that Daenerys’s response to the food question was like another reminder that she cares more about her dragons and her conquest for the throne than other peoples safety. A child got burned to death because of Drogon after all…
Yes she ended up locking the other two dragons (which I applaud), but its weird how the writers just straight up ignore the issue of how wild the dragons are. Why not write Daenerys learning how to tame them or something? After Drogon saves her in Meereen its just magically goes away 🤦🏾♀️
Yeah, it's a very interesting juxtaposition that seems to indicate that out of the two sides of Dany, the one who wants to be a decent ruler and the one who wants to conquer and take as much power as she can, by the time she makes it to Winterfell she is fully committed to her conquering side. I don't think that she ever had zero care for others, but she would never prioritize the safety and security of human beings in exchange for any of her dragon power, which obviously doesn't reflect well on her leadership skills. And I assume the dropped issue of having wild dragons is just one of the many later-season instances of the writers feeling like something will take too much time and is too much of a pain in the ass to explain so it just ceased to be a thing.
Dany probably mentioned Maegor, because she learned history of her house from Viseris. He was sadistic and petty psychopath and likely was fascinated by ancestor most known for his cruelty.
Given how close Arya and Jon are, she would absolutely dispatch Dany when she became a threat to him.
Dragons really are nukes, the violence becomes abstract
Great video! I always found it strange that Dany was proud to be descended from maegor the crule and old valyria... Like girl that were all awful people. And yes maybe viserys told her bullshit but it seems she knows exactly what valyrian was and maegor was called the crule... not much explanation needed
Exactly! I know a lot of people are committed to the idea that she is the savior of the world despite GoT, but she constantly ups herself because she is the descendant of slavers and conquerors and subjugators, it seems like a pretty obvious indication that her character arc is going in a pretty dark direction.
Yes! I mean even aegon the first just sucked and killed thousands of people sometimes with no reason( Dorn)
LOL yes, like I understand that a subsection of the ASOIAF fandom worships all things Targaryen, but they are ultimately a bunch of ego-driven blowhards who think that they are god's gift to the world because they can use fire lizards to kill a fuckton of people. I really don't get the glorification of their family.
@@HillsAliveYT
Tyrells are lannister with flowers and targaryens are lannisters with dragons that how I see it in a way.
And yes targaryens are epic and dragons are epic and kingdomstuff is epic... It's epic but not good.
Yeah I actually agree, the Lannisters and the Targaryens have a great deal in common even down to the weird incest aspect, and I think that is almost entirely driven by the fact that they sincerely believe that they are better than everyone else. I also think a great deal of Targaryen "madness" actually comes down to this, I think they tend to lose their shit not because of some inborn mental illness, but largely because they spend their entire lives thinking they're gods among men and expecting to be the greatest being that has ever lived. No one can ever really live up to that idea, so they often go to massive extremes and create chaos because they're so obsessed with being history's main character that they can't cope with the fact that they are literally just people who will probably do nothing of significance or worse, will just fuck the world up even more than it is already. And Tywin and his children (because he ultimately is the root of Lannister toxicity) are just the Targaryens without the dragons because once again they're outrageously entitled and think they're superior to everyone, and thus create a ton of destruction in their quest to be the most important person of all time.
That stupid line 🙄 “I know a killer when I see one.” YEAH, ME TOO, she just burned down the fricking CITY!!!
It's probably more likely Jon and Dany's roles will be switched. This show's finale was written by D. Benioff, who fundamentally changed the Trojan War's ending in Troy, removing the gods and fantasy elements whilst having Paris and Helen survive and in love. Dany takes inspiration from, among others, Vedic traditions of Parvati, Durga, and Kali, different aspects of a mother goddess. If Dany goes full Kali in her wrath, using a Dance of Dragons to threaten scorching the earth rather than her own body's dancing on earth, Jon might have to take the role of Shiva and throw himself beneath her dance to save others (Martin has promised another Dance of Dragons in the main storyline). This, like Kali, can snap Dany back to her more motherly Parvati state, and might also fulfill an Azhor Ahai prophecy. Jon being a Nissa figure, the dragon acting as Lighbringer with it's fire being quenched in Snow, possibly allowing Snow to become a combination of a Ice Other and Fire Other. Maybe what Dany is burning is the equivalent of Kali's ashura enemies, Dany's ashura being the Ice Others or magic followers of the demonic Euron Greyjoy.
It's possible Jon will take a role like that but he will still kill Daenerys in the end... sorry... If you watch season 1 again it super hilariously throws it into your face
There's no denying the foreshadowing in season one it's all over the place! It became so obvious after season eight where the foreshadowing was
I just thought Dany would “die” by changing her name and finding her own red door and lemon tree and living a simple life.
i really like that ending
@@Nihilanth She won't though. She wants what's hers by 'right'. We'll see how Daenerys reacts to someone having more of a 'right' to Westeros (Aegon) than her in the next book.
@@jomckellan that's show Dany only, read the books properly and you'll understand what's the character true motivation. but if you choose to reduce one of the most complex characters in ASOIAF with "she only wants to take what's hers" then you're really dumb.
and fAegon Blackfyre doesn't have more right than her. Jon is a bastard and Daenerys is the true heir.
@@Nihilanth She's not complex, and we don't yet know for sure if Aegon is a fake or if Jon is indeed a bastard.
@@jomckellan yeah, I'm not talking with someone who clearly didn't read the books. keep your simple mind, peace out
Interesting, but I think Maegor the Cruel was killed by his kingsguard. Maegor wanted to send them all off to their near certain deaths. They had the means, motive and opportunity, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they were the last people that saw him.
The order of the greenhand had a series of interesting videos on Maegor, that actually kind of changed my perspective about him. He was brutal but in the world of ASOIF that's not uncommon, however, it's likely that without him the Faith would've overthrown the Targaryens and destroyed them. The Faith and the masters turned against Aenys(kind Abomination), because he was the product of incest and because he also wanted his children to marry echother, he died and was probably poisoned and left a small child as a king, with a raging rebelion against his house. Cruel as he was house Targaryen woudl've been destroyed without him by the Faith. Maybe that's why Danny mentions him and thinks he was a good example.
Another great video! This makes sense to me. I love listening to theories about this! Thanks!
Thanks! I know it's a bit of a left-field theory but honestly that Maegor the Cruel shoutout just became a brain worm in my mind from which I could not escape.
man i wish i can read the books for the first time again. the crazy depth of the lore is very addictive to pore over and obsess about.
I think Jon will kill dany, but he will the person that decides he needs to, nobody will ask him like Tyrion did. There’s themes of hero’s killing their loves, but the first lesson the stark boys learned in GOT is that a lord ought to perform the executions he sentenced.
Great, yet again a really nice video.
Whether it makes the most sense or plays out or not it makes a lot more sense than the show.
Aryas show arc does seem broken in some way , I guess whatever George told D&D about her ending they couldn't or wouldn't do it.
The Daenerys arc seems nonsensical and weirdy sexist, not really George's style. I assume the execution of her arc was too hard. Maybe they both are similar in needing subtle arcs and that's why it went wrong, who knows.
Neither really gives meaning or narrative to thier journey. Neither end up very sympathetic by the end , arguably book Cerci is more sympathetic than either who are both a bit souless at times (show only, I still like them in the book).
I'm hoping for the best, your senario would be a very satisfying one.
Yeah, actually in retrospect I am both more irritated but also more impressed by Dany's arc in the show, because on the one hand they went very far out of their way to make the surface text of the series make Dany seem like a nearly flawless hero, but on the other they actually telegraphed that Dany was likely a villain from a cinematic and subtextual perspective.
One of the fundamental issues with GoT that could never be avoided though is simply, George uses his POV writing to such particular effect that a great deal of the material is completely unadaptable for the screen. They failed to execute Dany's arc properly because they essentially adapted her story that was written from her point of view, but translating it to the screen told that story in a third person point of view, which took a very subjective vision that Daenerys has for herself and treated it like it was objective fact. That is obviously an issue for every character, but given that GRRM seems to have pretty clearly written Dany as a hidden villain in ASOIAF, there was hardly any way to actually make that make sense without conveying Dany as the villain in GoT from the start.
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah that seems true. I wonder what an adaptation would look like that was made after the books were finished, they would need to creatively convey some of these things, and some things couldn't be adapted. But at least they could have a run up , while the show got stuck on portrayals that deviated too much from the core charectors, which is fine until you have an end point in mind that doesn't work.
I think they made all of the Lannisters (except Joffrey) too sympathetic as well. They are alot more flawed in the books, while I can see the benefits of that, they seem to be on punishment or redemptive arcs in the books, but the nuances of how they see themselves Vs the truth isn't as well done. I think they'll have a lot of soul searching in the books and some might reject their fathers (terrible) teachings, in the show it's not even an issue.
But for sure it's always going to be an obstacle.
In terms of Danny if you think there was some decent work telegraphing her as bad. Where do you think it went wrong in terms of the twist being unpopular? For instance, was it enough? The lack of her darker thoughts? The narrative of people around her?
I think it's interesting, I didnt care by that point about Dany so I'd be interested in what was done well that I just didn't notice.
Thanks
Oh my god so agreed about the Lannisters, I will do a video about it someday but I'm still outraged that book!Tyrion is basically a narcissistic abusive monster while in the show he was basically a hero. I understand that ultimately Peter, Nikolaj, and Lena were essentially such good actors that it was impossible for them to be entirely unsympathetic, but the way in which they whitewashed their characters was very disappointing.
And I'm going to go into full film nerd territory here, but it's obvious that D&D and the GoT crew were more filmmakers that novel writers or adapters, because I have a BA in film criticism and my actual job is as an entertainment writer and editor, and from a filmmaking perspective they included a lot of film technique that would make Dany's villainy obvious to people who recognize the references but aren't going to be as clear to people who aren't on the lookout for it.
Probably the best example is that in a lot of Dany's "rousing" moments the cinematography pretty directly references Leni Riefenstahl, she directed the propaganda films for Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party and she's one of the most commonly mimicked directors of all time because her propaganda was so effective. She's basically the reason why someone can look at a legion of Stormtroopers in Star Wars and recognize that they're space Nazis even though it's not something that they're super consciously aware of. But in most instances, films or TV shows that reference Riefenstahl create other context clues that we're looking at the "bad guys," whereas GoT went for a straight propaganda-style angles, framing, and scoring when Dany was having a lot of her "Darth Vader" moments. They were shooting her scenes in the exact style of the most effective propaganda of all time, so someone who would recognize what that was would get it but it should come as absolutely no shock whatsoever that the general audience thought that she must be the world's ultimate hero.
And score is one of the most effective filmmaking context clues for whether or not what we're seeing is good or bad, and GoT mostly obscured Dany's dark nature because they literally gave her heroic music, it was generally very uplifting with a lot of literal rising notes. However, a lot of her scenes also included very classic "evil" scoring that you almost never hear with any "good" protagonist characters, there's a lot of moments where Dany appears "badass" but the music accompanying the scene is very classically villainous with a descending melody that is often punctuated with a heavy rhythm. LOL it's stupid trying to write it out, but you can probably recall Dany scenes where she had that score that sort of had that "bmmmmm-BOM" sound to it which is very classic bad guy. But again, for the average viewer to actively notice these details is unusual, especially when so much of her material was very uplifted and classically heroic.
I also think that quite frankly, a lot of the way in which they filmed Dany was in the style of American propaganda. If you look at the way in which the US likes to portray themselves as a military power in the media vs. what they actually do in real life, Dany actually mirrors that fantastically both in terms of storytelling and actual filmic framing. However, this is a show that is made for an American audience, so to film Dany like she's Captain America for the first 7.75 seasons and then expect the audience to actually be able to reflect and not only change their perspective on Dany's character arc, but to also switch gears from the POV of someone who has spent literally their entire lives absorbing American propaganda and to be able to ask themselves "wait, are we actually the baddies" at the very end is both actually kind of brilliant from GoT's artistic standpoint but also was 100% doomed to fail no matter what because it's asking way too much of a general audience.
@@HillsAliveYT I don’t suppose you could turn this explanation of cinematic language, scoring, and modern propaganda in relation to Dany into an essay, could you? The scenes the paralleled Riefenstahl had always felt a little unnerving to me. I hadn’t even considered how it could relate to American propaganda though in hindsight it makes sense to me.
@@lindaschreifels9889 ABSOLUTELY I would love to do that and have totes planned to for a while, honestly it's one of the most interesting aspects of GoT to me.
I appreciate this perspective. I don't believe that Daenerys is going to be a villain in the books, and generally think she'll die in the war against the others. But I always enjoy new fan theories that contradict what I have come to believe will happen
I think GRRM basically revealed that Dany was always going to go mad, and start a second Dance of Dragons with the rightful heir Aegon (most likely Jon Snow)
@@BleedingGrafitti revealed when?
Wouldn't want a black cat to startle you, and cause you ACCIDENTALLY, PURELY ACCIDENTALLY, fall onto the blades of the Iron Throne, ending your life. That would REALLY suck...
Being honest, I'll believe Jon's and Dany's romance in ASOIAF when I see it. Because they seem to be polar opposites; and if Jon's character development goes the way it has been going so far in the books, I believe he would just bend the knee if needed to in order to save lives, and basically intending to use her resource for the good of the realm. I don't see him being this much fascinated or stunned by her "noble intentions" or "idealism" (although those simplistic portrayals of her as a hero and him as a loyal, not knowing dog, go into the lore of the seasons 6-8 of GOT).
Also, I've never toticed the Maegor the Cruel detail, and it's really a Chekhov's gun of its own class!
I know this won't be the ending, but man it would be so cool if Arya warged into Drogon and had Drogon eat Dany
😂😂that’d be fun
Wow! You dropped some major bombs. My mind is fucking blown. First, there's the idea that Maegor was killed by a faceless assassin, which never occurred to me. Then, you propose that Arya take an immediate dislike to Dany, when I always thought the opposite. At least at first. I always imagined that Arya would be in awe of Dany. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still think that is possible, at least at the beginning. Even though I am perhaps naively hopeful that Dany will die a hero, if she dies a villain, that is a fantastic theory as to how it could happen in the books. Wow! *_I'm guessing your 2nd candidate to kill Dany is Jaqen? If you are correct, do you think Arya & Jaqen will ever meet again? If so, for what purpose? Could he fail in his mission to kill Dany, and charge Arya with it before he dies?_*
araya respects jon beyond any other. that respect kept her from actions toward danaerys, imo.
I love your theories, but I don't agree with your interpretation of Maegor's inclusion in AGoT. Imo, she said Aegon to signify her nature as a conqueror and Maegor to show that she's capable of reigning with fire and blood. Let's not forget that she addresses the Dothraki-people who understand terror and violence and seek that from their khal. Had Rhaego been born, he wouldn't have automatically become the new khal (this isn't Westeros) he'd have to prove himself to the khalasar. That's essentially what Dany is doing in that chapter - trying to prove herself as a reigning khaleesi and trying to keep as many Dothraki as possible to conquer the Seven Kingdoms, hence the Maegor reference.
I think Barristan Selmy could be someone that kills Dany. He could finally make a decision for himself and become a Queenslayer at the end of his life after realizing he wasted his life serving people unworthy of loyalty.
The in universe reason why Maegor is comparatively well known and hated, might be because the sources we have are very pro Jaehaerys and use Maegor to prop up their favorite.
It's basically the same thing that happened to Nero in Rome: Nero was unpopular, so after he was dead, he was smeared by every historian ever, to make the new emperor look better. It's basically what Shakespeare did to Richard III: Make the old, unpopular ruler look like a monster, to make his successor look even better by comparison.
The IRL reason might be that GRRM wanted to write a novella (or 3) instead of working on Winds.
She's descended from Aegon and Maegor. Two people who were impotent
It was never confirmed Aegon was impotent. This is a tinfoil hat fan theory.
@@rainluna9765 he literally put the entire realm to the fire
She’s not a descendant of Maegor? Maegor died with no children. She’s descended from his older brother, Aenys.
She is a descendant of Rhaenyra thoughb and she was called King Maegor with teats.
maybe Danny was trying to take those claims of the terrible things that men said about Rhaenyra and said let them all things considered Rhaenyra descendents did win the dance of the dragons🤷🏻♀️
You have the best analogy of the books I have found, you deserve 100,000’s of subscribers and I will endeavour to help by adding my own 💜
Maegor WAS accomplished. If not for him, the faith would have rid Westeros of Targayen rule.
Definitely one positive thing he did
@@made-line7627 Is that a positive? I’d argue Westeros would’ve been better off without that family.
@@sugarpearl9781 Yeah, I get what you mean. I just don't like fanatics haha. Though you could argue that Targaryens are fanatics in their own way.
@@made-line7627 They definitely are. They worship themselves.
Maehaps Dany gave props to Maegor bc her brother idolized him, who also died ironically?
If Arya does indeed put lady stoneheart to rest, she might also make the difficult decision to put Jon down, after which she might use his face to kill dany
You just blew my mind with this one. Please keep these coming
i'd say that bran can warg anyone or any animal and kill dany. there are a few people who could kill dany. she's still supposed to be betrayed by love, so there's still the possibility that it's jon after all. it can't be jorah because he already fulfilled the "treason by gold" part of the prophecy.
sorry for spamming the comments. 😸
edit:
wouldn't it be insane if lady stoneheart ends up having a role in dany's death? like, say, she'd do it to protect jon snow whom she mistreated in life but is now protecting as an undead creature? LOL i know it's tinfoil but i couldn't help myself cause it's funny 🤣
Depending on the context, 'betrayed by love' doesn't necessarily mean love for Dany. Dany helping the Starks' defeat the Night King with her dragons is probably going to happen. This might then be used as justification for the Starks' supporting her claim to the throne and forming an alliance. Arya then killing Dany would then be a betrayal. If she does it out of love for the people she met in the river lands, her family, the north, and humanity in general (or any combo there of), then it would be a "betrayal by love," just not love of or for Dany.
@@stareyedwitch
"love for the people" is a bit of a stretch. it's more altruism than love. i think it really is going to be jon but the show simply failed the execution (pun intended).
Hi Hill, love the videos. I have a question for you: do you think that the Others will be dealt with first and then the final conflict will be against human foes like in the show? Or will it be the other way around with the Otbers being the ultimate threat?
I think the human threat will be the final battle, given GRRM's love for examining the human heart in conflict with itself I see him making humanity the endgame threat.
@@HillsAliveYT You surprise me! So the Others are just a fake out villian?
@@umwha Oh no I definitely don't think they're a fake out threat, I just think that the last threat is going to be people rather than magic.
@@HillsAliveYT I sort of agree - but I think the Others have to form the grand climax - but much of our attention will always be with the factions of humanity continuing to squabble and politik during the apocalypse. And there will continue to be disputes and feuds after the Others are defeated. But once the Others are defeated, I cant see there being a second, ultimate climax, that we are expected to care even more about. Do you see it like that?
@@umwha Agreed
Super interesting, makes alot of sense. 👍 I just hope we get to see whether youre right or not one day 🙏
Daenerys won't die she will decide that westeros is not for her and return to merreen
Personally i suspect Maegor was killed by a kings guard.
Also i don’t think the Iron Throne will be standing at Daenerys death, i think it will be destroyed with King Landing
In my opinion, I believe Jon will kill Daenerys. George RR Martin has said that A Song Of Ice and Fire is about Jon and Daenerys. Unlike the TV show, which presented them as polar opposites, Jon as a stoic good guy, and Daenerys as an impulsive fiery queen, in the books their stories are parallered and contrasted in a poetic way. Jon is a classic boy with a lot of anger management issues who wants to be a hero and lead the world against the Others, but realizes being a hero is a very difficult task that puts his own values into conflict ( love vs duty), and Daenerys is a fierce but inexperienced young girl who has genuinely good intentions to rule Westerors, but she eventually realizes that the virtue of being a Targaryen is to be Conqueror, as warmonger, a Dragon. Martin wants us to imagine Jon and Daenerys as a romantic union who will save Westerors against the Others, but tragically, the real reason why their stories are so intertwined, is because ones destiny ( Jon) is to destroy the other's ( Daenerys).
I think there was an ominous scene in the book when she stepped on ants
Stepped on them, and also woke up with them crawling all over her, and they'd come from the other side of this little wall. I don't know what to think haha
@@made-line7627 Its like they represent the peasants and smallfolk Thats what they are to her Little ants mwahaha
another thing about the dragons, I think they are also the reason why Dany can just x her empathy at any given moment! Not just in the way you describe but internaly through the bond. We know that bonds go both ways with skinchangers and wargs, why not dragon riders? Dragons are reptils and apex predetors with little need for complex social structures and skills, you are a threat so you are an enemy and get eliminated is a very appropriet way of thinking for a dragon, but terrible one for a ruler. Thats why so many people miss the red flags with dany, she has two compleatly different sides to herself, her sweet I want to help everyone self from the beginning and ever since she bonded to the eggs the hairtrigger ruthless one which are constantly at odds with eachother but she does not seam to be aware of that an thats why I think she will go mad.
She also isn't descended from Maegor. She's descended from king Aenys. Maegor's older half-brother.
I think Danny's fate will depend on the order she deals with the Night King, (F)Aegon, Cersei and Euron. I'm guessing the destruction of Kings Landing (after Aegon has captured it, with Danny's dragons igniting the Wildfire caches) would tip Arya into assassinating her, but if Euron is still around, it could easily be him to kill Danny (presumably leaving Jon to claim - or not claim - the Iron Throne). And if Cersei is the last opponent standing after Danny has dealt with the NK, who knows who might kill Danny (maybe Jon)?
Excellent video. I watch a lot of these ASOIAF pages and as near as I can tell none of them have made a video on this subject.
Does the fact that she said that she have the blood of Maegor could mean that she IS not really Dany but rather a dragonseed who descent from Maegor ?
After all She could in her subconscious mind remember that from what Viserys told her ?
OMG This video should be marked with spoilers for the book signs! Genius, I am in awe with this theory! Brilliant!
You say that both Arya and Daenerys can still come back from their dark paths. Setting aside what you think will happen in the books, what would their setting aside their dark paths look like to you?
I don't see how she could be descended from maegor when he couldn't have children. Seems like that line has to mean something, like why would she say that if it's not true?
I feel like George would pull some shit like her being found dead on the throne or something and no one knowing how
This might actually make sense. I could see a flip flop from the show where Jon defeats the White Walkers but balks at killing Dany because of his honor.
Every character mentioned was a killer.
Aegon (young griff) ? Or the long night. Daenerys is not burning kings landing imo maybe Jon connigton will or Daenerys if she fights young griff. I don’t Arya kills Daenerys
Yes Young Griff, and I'm presuming Dany will burn King's Landing because of Young Griff.
😄
❤
I totally disagree with how you paint Dany.
as a Daenerys fan till the end (not closed minded) i never thought about this and i like it more (even though it will hurt me), it makes more sense, when the ep aired i was shook it was so stupid like "so all her journey as a faceless girl is for nothing?" Because killing the freys wasn't season finale worthy enough for me. Also i'm not a book reader but i wish Arya was played by a different actress or that maisie would have played her differently (or maybe was the script idk) because most vibes she gave me were "i'm not like other girls" so i was never into her that much so hearing this makes me think a little bit more about her.
I'm desperately clutching to the theory that if Dany dies, she will die a hero, and recede from her darkness before the end of her narrative arc. I feel like my grip on this hope just got a little looser because you played _This Little Piggy_ with it with your splendid theory. Well played!
I strongly believe it will be the Young Griff, since a lot of his arc seems to be given to Jon in the series. But your theory about Arya is also interesting.
I think it’s Arya to do it. All the Starks are wargs and if Dany does attempt to burn down KL, I could see Arya warging into Drogon and kill Dany that way.
@@jjh2456 That just stupid. Bran might be able to do that but definitely not Arya
Also, while I'm not sure GRRM will have Jon and Dany fall in love- the original plot outline from before GoT was released had Arya and Jon romantically linked. So that would create a love triangle.
If Dany dies, I think she'll most likely die during the final battle against the Others.
Yeah that's definitely a popular theory, but I actually don't think Dany will be a part of the battle against the Others at all.
@@HillsAliveYT What's your theory?
@@sgauden02 LOL well I coincidentally posted a video sort of covering the topic like a day or two ago, but essentially because people always interpret prophecy wrong and Rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophecy about the Prince That Was Promised and was focused on having a baby when the world devolved into war largely because of his actions, none of the remaining Targaryens are actually going to fight in the war for the dawn. I actually think GoT may have gotten it half right, but I think that Dany will be too focused on the IT and Jon will waste too much time trying to convince her to help, and while they're still negotiating the Others will come and the people who have already united will be the ones to battle against them. It might be a long shot, but given how anti-war GRRM is, I can't imagine him ever justifying Rhaegar's actions by proving him right in any way.
@@HillsAliveYT It's hard to tell with GRRM. We'll have to wait and see.
@@sgauden02 LOL yeah, I mean I love to think about what will happen but if I get even 10% right I'll consider that a win.
After S8 Dany fans latched onto Arya as the favorite Star sister, drawing parallels between them while ignoring anti-Valyrian hints in Arya's story, like naming her firewood after Nymeria and crossing to Braavos that was founded by slaves escaping Valyria 🤔 and Sansa become the Stark sister that is seen as an enemy due to ship wars, but book Sansa could be more friendly to Daenerys considering how much she likes the stories of Queen Alysanne, Aemon & Naerys
Noooo! I want her to get Cersei. As for Dany, I will never understand how easy it is for some people make the tone death argument that her freeing the slaves made it worse for them. The only people who’s life got worse were the masters and common free people, I guess. Yes many of the slaves were going hungry or caught the pale mare during her conquest. But when you compare that to the brutality they were facing under the masters: 163 children crucified alive; kids used for follies and fed to bears , lions, tigers alive for mass entertainment & gambling; mutilations; assaults; torture etc. You have to read the books. It’s so upsetting reading about the casual apathy most people had towards the brutal and excessive killings of the slaves in Essos and the smallfolk in Westeros.
Are you actually telling Hills Alive to go read the books? 😶🌫️
That aside... if anyone did read the books, they'd see how Daenerys changed nothing for the slaves but make their lives more chaotic. And she never cared about slavery anyway till it was convenient for her PR image to.
Dany and Jon will rule Westoros as one and the Targaryen dynasty will reign for centuries to come. Give us the Happy ending George! It doesn't all have to be tragic. Plus, that would really subvert our expectations. Seeing how we expect the worst.
This is a nightmare ending, and it's exactly what many fans were expecting lol.
Where did Martin say that the ending matches his? I just don’t think it does match and even if it did I think it diverges so much he would never say it matches. It would be so unwise to say it matches . Source
ua-cam.com/video/SjDentEr9c4/v-deo.html
@@HillsAliveYT Thankyou, I suggest watching that source again becuase he really emphasised many ways they are different. 'Theres no way to fit the secondary and tertiary characters in,' 'It could run for 5 more seasons', 'I dont think DnDs ending is gonna be THAT different from my ending because of the conversations we did have ' - this implies GRRM dosent know exactly what DnDs ending is yet. He hasnt seen what they ended up writing at this point.
@@umwha Well I think it's very unlikely that GRRM would say absolutely nothing if the show was wildly different from the books, and my interpretation is different, but I can't say that I'm 100% right so we'll see.
@@HillsAliveYT His silence says it all, I think. I remember when the finale was airing, Martin made no public comment at all. On his Notablog, he made posts casually talking about other shows. No acknowledgement of the finale at all.
@@umwha Fair, but when he has disagreed with something significant on GoT he has directly said it, like with Stoneheart or putting Sansa with Ramsay. But GoT also ended pretty much exactly how I expected the show and book series to end so I'm not inclined to look for ways in which George would indicate that it was wrong in the way that a lot of people who don't think Dany is a final villain seem to look.
Also she’s not a direct descendent of maegor
Yes she is
As cruel as Maegor was, you can’t deny that he saved his house. (At the time at least)
What if Arya's motivation to the threat Daenarys poses creates a confrontation, but one where daenarys triumphs instead of Arya? What if the death of Arya drives Jon Snow to the act? Book Arya will all-but-certainly not be the quite hyper-badass-assassin as show Arya as a consequence of Martin's removal of the five-year time jump. This could muddy the waters of Arya simply taking out Daenarys.
Well it kind of happened like that in the show. Dany wasn’t gunning for Arya, but Sansa. That’s I why I thought if anyone was going to kill Dany, it would’ve been Arya cause she definitely will protect her family.
the nod to maegor the cruel seems more about his vicious brother viserys' influence on her. this is a point in dany's arc where she just realized on her own that she's not the weak person that viserys made her believe all her life. this claim to cruelty is also a parallel to the "gold crowning" of viserys by khal drogo. dany steeled herself and watched on as his psycho brother get a humiliating and tortorous death in front of everybody, while telling herself that "a dragon does not burn". this part of her arc is a foreshadowing that she is indeed capable of much cruelty and that other than the horrid viserys, she didn't have a real life mentor to show her the more ennobled characteristics of their ancestors like jaehaerys the conciliator, because the ones viserys would have idolized would have been maegor and the conqueror. in a way, having a brother like viserys really messed her up and made it difficult for her as an adult to not easily resort to cruelty.
That seems like too big a change from the book to the show to not have Jon kill her. At that point it really is an entirely different story and George will have only changed it due to backlash from the fandom.
I really enjoyed the contrast between Arya and Dany. Good job. I wonder though about Jon's role. Arya loves Jon. If Jon loves Dany would Arya betray him? If Dany does get preggers with Jon's kid would Arya kill her nieces or nephew's mother? I think it would be more interesting for Arya to be Dany's Hand of the Queen or be like Varys..a master of whispers. Dany is good at brute strength but she could use someone of Arya's talents.
No, but could have been.
Short answer:
The clues about Ayra are actually about her killing Aegon the younger (Jaqen Jon’s twin brother) the ?third? (fourth if you count fake nightking Euron) Nightking.
For Aegon(Griff) vs Daenerys ending read Oedipus, it’s where “slayer of lies” is from. Sprinkle in Tyrion teaching Aegon(Griff) that dragons are the most important thing. Add a dash of all of Daenerys former servants who “stole” from her are serving Aegon(Griff) (and gave him the treasure, since he is actually the heir not Daenerys). Cook close to a well for Jon Con to jump into (maybe with Sansa) with a very unhealthy dose of dragonfire.
For Daenerys first death: Thesus and the Amazons / Romulus and Remus/ Azor Ahai. Either Jon or Arya (less likely) will cauterize a blade in fire to give a pregnant Daenerys a Cesarean birth. She will appear dead, maybe will be.
Second death: Jon pushes her on the throne?!?! or stabs her.
Drogon gives Daenerys a Targaryen cremation on the throne, splitting 1 kingdom to 7.
I think that Dany is going to die in the fight against the others, dying in Jorah's arms as Jon uses Lightbringer to bring down the others. I think in the book Jon and Dany will be more platonic and will embrace each other as Aunt and Nephew. when Dany learns about Azor Ahai she tells Jon to do the right thing at the right moment to bring an end to the others, sacrificing herself for her people and dying in the arms of the man who loves her most.
it sounds too "cheap" for the books. GRRM already said prophecies shouldn't be taken so literal, so to have jon make an flaming sword with the heart of her lover to save mankind doesn't really fit.
imo, Dany is azor ahai. she was born amidst salt and smoke (dragonstone) and reborn from the ashes also in salt and smoke, she has awaken the stone dragons and she has the bleeding star (the red comet), the tale of someone killing it's lover to save the world did happen in book 1, when Dany asphyxiated Drogo. the death of Drogo brought the lightbringer (dragons), the literally opposing force against the white walkers (fire).
@@Nihilanth Good points about killing Drogo etc
No