Interestingly, we (by Which I mean The House on the Borderland. The combined record/comic/bookshop I co-ran in Peterborough at the time) also did some events with Jane & the Unwin Hyman authors. This consisted of a library tour in various towns around our area, with Colin Greenland, Geoff Ryman, M. John Harrison and others. These were rather unsuccessful, if I'm honest, due to lack of promotion. I remember one library had us, a deaf man, who waited patiently through the author readings, so he could ask questions through an interpreter, and a couple of librarians. We were the booksellers, and ended up with quite a bit of leftover stock, which we eventually sold off to Mike Don in Manchester. It was good fun, though.
They were great days. It's always difficult to get people out for the more interesting and literary SF writers, but in Bath I've had some big successes where genre/cult author attendances beat mainstream ones (or at least equalled them). Harrison & Kilworth was around 30 people I recall, last Priest I did was 45 (as many as Susan Hill and Mick Herron), dozens for Moorcock the three times I hosted him, 45s for Christopher Fowler and M John Harrison (the second time I hosted MJH). For writers like Toner, Chris Beckett, Ken McLeod, Emma Newman, Gavin Chait, Andrew Bannister and Dave Hutchinson I'd get between 15 and 30. Obviously big mass market names like Christopher Paolini you get a lot more, but then that's the popular for you - usually less interesting and more conservative, but he was a lovely guy.
You are right in my era now with Interzone. I have a complete run of David's issues and he had such a reliable school of writers working for him. I think that the first few issues, which were great, caught some criticism for being too much like New Worlds, and David reacted to this by publishing more hard sf. I share your opinion of many of these writers, especially Eric Brown, who was very readable but a bit like Keith Roberts or Michael Coney without the hard edges. Some of the mainstays that you didn't mention included Brian Stableford, Ian Watson, Geoff Ryman, Gwyneth Jones, Lisa Tuttle, Kim Newman and lots of work by Barrington Bayley. I also loved the non-fiction, including Clute's reviews and also interviews with and features on most of the important writers of the time. I am pleased that you are giving Paul McAuley another chance. His novel Fairyland and stories with a shared background are the ultimate Gene-rat fiction and I suggest that you try them next. Also excellent and full of biological speculation are the slightly later Quiet War books with lots of near-future nasty politics. I'm going now to re-read some of Paul's stories.
Hi Alan - I didn't mention Stableford, Watson, Jones and the older writers as although as you said they were 'Interzone' regulars, they were all published extensively before IZ got going- Ryman I meant to highlight, but I realised I'd cleared out a lot of his work and wish I'd kept it ("Oh Happy Day" was a great story by him that went in the first anthology IZ did). I met Ryman once, he was charming. I've actually received two more of Paul's books today and am looking forward to reading them. ...and by the way, I'm hoping to firm up my plans to visit Hay again soon and we can have that pint!
I was a subsciber to Interzone for many years and kudos to David Pringle for running the mag and publishing all the new writers you mention. I have to say that I wanted more transgressive stories that pushed the bounderies, but thats just my taste,and dos'nt take away anything from David who did a great job. Anyone who is JGB's archivist and at one time published JGB News is a star in my opinion.
Never met David in person, but I am in touch with him online via my 'Deep Ends' work- he's a great, great guy and one of my key influences as a non-fiction writer. I respect him enormously and he has impeccable taste.
I'm glad you mentioned (albeit briefly) some of the issues around New Worlds. When my Moorcock enthusiasm was at it's highest, and I was most likely to undertake a vast unpaid research project, there was no Internet (in the public way) , no way to find copies of any "New Worlds" other than catch as catch can. From the perspective of an American, searching more than a decade after publication, reading about what was usually called "New Worlds Magazine" in articles on the subject & finding issues of New worlds, New Worlds Quarterly, New Worlds # - many of them sporting non Moorcock author/editor names - it was more impenetrable than confusing. It gives just a taste of what you feel when looking for a movement that seems to be wiped from the historical record. It's great to hear about these books & I'd love to know more. While we're at it, if you ever get the chance, a deep dive into the differences between the different issues of New worlds would be great as well. Yes, I know, that's what Patreons are for.
Great vid, Steve. "Literary space opera" is such an interesting premise to me. I don't think I've heard anyone talk about this notion. Any other recommendations?
Thanks Matt. Well, I'd say that 'Literary Space Opera' is for me just Space Opera that is well-written to the standard (or at least aspires to the standards ) of mainstream literary modernism: at the more pulp-derived end I'd cite Barrington J. Bayley (who is like PKD meshed with Bester with a UK sensibility), Stableford's 'Hooded Swan' series and Greenland's 'Take Back Plenty', then getting more stylistically inventive and subtextual, Delany's 'Nova', while Spinrad's 'The Void Captain's Tale' adds the darkness of late 19th century decadence to the melange. Ultimately, though, you're looking to M John Harrison - initially 'The Centauri Device', but then leaping forward to his Kefahuchi Tract Trilogy ('Light', 'Nova Swing' and 'Empty Space') which make 'Hyperion' look like a walk in the park (not that I dislike 'Hyperion', I think it's a great one). Ultimately, the small Schroedinger Catbox you could fit all true literary space opera into comes out of a bigger cage: William S. Burroughs' Nova Trilogy (Reading Order: 'The Soft Machine', 'Nova Express' and 'The Ticket That Exploded'), where Burroughs samples and meshes the Golden Age texts of Henry Kuttner with his Beat Outsider sensibility and pre-Cronenberg take on Modernism. Check the Bayley and Burroughs entries in my book and way back in the early days of the channel there are videos on both. Keep watching the skies, man.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Superb, thank you. I will be referencing back to this periodically. And thankfully I do own one Bayley, might read that next.
Forgot to mention: If you already like Night Shade Books, their 5 volume Collected Works of Clark Ashton Smith really nice. The TPB's are $11- $15 ea depending, {but you MUST have a connection} (like the Wm Hope Hodgson ones as well.) So much better than paying the same money for an incomplete 2nd hand Gollancz collection that's well read. When in doubt, all his stories are up at the Eldritch Dark website
This has been planned for a very long time but will finally take place in March - well, it won't be 'book hauls' as such, for I generally only buy B Format paperbacks new, or if I do buy them they get featured this way anyway, but I will be doing a B Format Shelf Tour to reveal my SF in this now standard format.
Perhaps someone should find the time to request Wikipedia write an article about "Gene Rats". It seems a worthy endeavor. Thanks for this bit of history, OB. I often feel as though I'm taking fun and interesting SF Lit classes in college when I watch your episodes! Cheers.
I think David Pringle would be the man for the job, really- I have to ask him about the detail (should have done so before I filmed this one really) but it gives me an excuse to contact him as it's been a while!
Your suggestions for "Literary Space Opera" are exciting and inciting! They incite me to go out and look for a bunch of books I wont read right away from that list below as well as in the video. Dangerous talk near Christmas!
@@outlawbookselleroriginal it's a lovely pagan holiday brutally co-opted away from the Germans by southern Americans. You can tell by how it pivots on slave labor South American coffee, and the cups within which it is presented.
@@waltera13 Well yes, but my antipathy is entirely down to the way it dominates people's consciousness completely for months on end (and in retail, it NEVER goes away- it 'ends' in theory in late january, with the final unwanted gift exchanges/refunds, but then someone will mention it in february, so it's a constant thing for the retailer - yes, that's how I make my living, but it does grate after a few decades). It's more that fact that you simply cannot get away from it- especially if you leave the house- for two months. It's a form of psychic ritual totalitarianism. When I retire, I'm not 'doing Christmas' for a few years...actually, I will be, as I'm planning to spend it in Italy each year...
I'm a bit older than you and was around at the time. I know the movement and have had a difficult reading relationship with many of the authors involved. So I thought I knew the story and didn't need your opinion. As usual, I am an idiot. Thank you
The answer is 'Junky', NOT 'Naked Lunch' - people who don't read 'Junky' first invariably struggle withj Bill's magnificent work. This video explains why: ua-cam.com/video/RDeGSeJ4QO4/v-deo.html
@@GypsyRoSesx -You must: it's the same with 'Moby Dick' -it's not the first Melville anyone should read. You have to work up to these difficult titans by getting some early works in first. I've read 'Junky' at least 25 times (no kidding).
I think the "gene rats" movement is forgotten because it wasn't a movement. A new movement requires a new approach, a new vision, and for all that these writers were mostly capable, they failed to give SF a kick in the arse in the way the New Wave did. Instead they reworked well worn SF tropes, and there's nothing new in doing that. Paul McAuley is the best of them, as you say, but even his work has settled into a comfortable rut. My favourite among his novels are Fairyland and Pasquale's Angels, both of which, I think, are atypical.
Interestingly, we (by Which I mean The House on the Borderland. The combined record/comic/bookshop I co-ran in Peterborough at the time) also did some events with Jane & the Unwin Hyman authors. This consisted of a library tour in various towns around our area, with Colin Greenland, Geoff Ryman, M. John Harrison and others. These were rather unsuccessful, if I'm honest, due to lack of promotion. I remember one library had us, a deaf man, who waited patiently through the author readings, so he could ask questions through an interpreter, and a couple of librarians. We were the booksellers, and ended up with quite a bit of leftover stock, which we eventually sold off to Mike Don in Manchester. It was good fun, though.
They were great days. It's always difficult to get people out for the more interesting and literary SF writers, but in Bath I've had some big successes where genre/cult author attendances beat mainstream ones (or at least equalled them). Harrison & Kilworth was around 30 people I recall, last Priest I did was 45 (as many as Susan Hill and Mick Herron), dozens for Moorcock the three times I hosted him, 45s for Christopher Fowler and M John Harrison (the second time I hosted MJH). For writers like Toner, Chris Beckett, Ken McLeod, Emma Newman, Gavin Chait, Andrew Bannister and Dave Hutchinson I'd get between 15 and 30.
Obviously big mass market names like Christopher Paolini you get a lot more, but then that's the popular for you - usually less interesting and more conservative, but he was a lovely guy.
You are right in my era now with Interzone. I have a complete run of David's issues and he had such a reliable school of writers working for him. I think that the first few issues, which were great, caught some criticism for being too much like New Worlds, and David reacted to this by publishing more hard sf. I share your opinion of many of these writers, especially Eric Brown, who was very readable but a bit like Keith Roberts or Michael Coney without the hard edges. Some of the mainstays that you didn't mention included Brian Stableford, Ian Watson, Geoff Ryman, Gwyneth Jones, Lisa Tuttle, Kim Newman and lots of work by Barrington Bayley. I also loved the non-fiction, including Clute's reviews and also interviews with and features on most of the important writers of the time.
I am pleased that you are giving Paul McAuley another chance. His novel Fairyland and stories with a shared background are the ultimate Gene-rat fiction and I suggest that you try them next. Also excellent and full of biological speculation are the slightly later Quiet War books with lots of near-future nasty politics. I'm going now to re-read some of Paul's stories.
Hi Alan - I didn't mention Stableford, Watson, Jones and the older writers as although as you said they were 'Interzone' regulars, they were all published extensively before IZ got going- Ryman I meant to highlight, but I realised I'd cleared out a lot of his work and wish I'd kept it ("Oh Happy Day" was a great story by him that went in the first anthology IZ did). I met Ryman once, he was charming.
I've actually received two more of Paul's books today and am looking forward to reading them.
...and by the way, I'm hoping to firm up my plans to visit Hay again soon and we can have that pint!
I was a subsciber to Interzone for many years and kudos to David Pringle for running the mag and publishing all the new writers you mention.
I have to say that I wanted more transgressive stories that pushed the bounderies, but thats just my taste,and dos'nt take away anything from David who did a great job.
Anyone who is JGB's archivist and at one time published JGB News is a star in my opinion.
Never met David in person, but I am in touch with him online via my 'Deep Ends' work- he's a great, great guy and one of my key influences as a non-fiction writer. I respect him enormously and he has impeccable taste.
Love the Averoigne sequence, it was the inspiration for the Dungeons and Dragons module "Castle Amber".
yes, Vance's system of magic was used for D&D as well I understand.
I'm glad you mentioned (albeit briefly) some of the issues around New Worlds. When my Moorcock enthusiasm was at it's highest, and I was most likely to undertake a vast unpaid research project, there was no Internet (in the public way) , no way to find copies of any "New Worlds" other than catch as catch can. From the perspective of an American, searching more than a decade after publication, reading about what was usually called "New Worlds Magazine" in articles on the subject & finding issues of New worlds, New Worlds Quarterly, New Worlds # - many of them sporting non Moorcock author/editor names - it was more impenetrable than confusing.
It gives just a taste of what you feel when looking for a movement that seems to be wiped from the historical record.
It's great to hear about these books & I'd love to know more.
While we're at it, if you ever get the chance, a deep dive into the differences between the different issues of New worlds would be great as well.
Yes, I know, that's what Patreons are for.
Leave it with me. My great New Wave project will at some point contain an overview of New Worlds' history.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Be Didactic! Be cruel! I want charts and kinky boots!
@@salty-walt The tortuous publishing history and format hell of NW is too kinky even for the most dedicated masochist, I'd say LOL.
Great vid, Steve. "Literary space opera" is such an interesting premise to me. I don't think I've heard anyone talk about this notion. Any other recommendations?
Thanks Matt. Well, I'd say that 'Literary Space Opera' is for me just Space Opera that is well-written to the standard (or at least aspires to the standards ) of mainstream literary modernism: at the more pulp-derived end I'd cite Barrington J. Bayley (who is like PKD meshed with Bester with a UK sensibility), Stableford's 'Hooded Swan' series and Greenland's 'Take Back Plenty', then getting more stylistically inventive and subtextual, Delany's 'Nova', while Spinrad's 'The Void Captain's Tale' adds the darkness of late 19th century decadence to the melange.
Ultimately, though, you're looking to M John Harrison - initially 'The Centauri Device', but then leaping forward to his Kefahuchi Tract Trilogy ('Light', 'Nova Swing' and 'Empty Space') which make 'Hyperion' look like a walk in the park (not that I dislike 'Hyperion', I think it's a great one).
Ultimately, the small Schroedinger Catbox you could fit all true literary space opera into comes out of a bigger cage: William S. Burroughs' Nova Trilogy (Reading Order: 'The Soft Machine', 'Nova Express' and 'The Ticket That Exploded'), where Burroughs samples and meshes the Golden Age texts of Henry Kuttner with his Beat Outsider sensibility and pre-Cronenberg take on Modernism.
Check the Bayley and Burroughs entries in my book and way back in the early days of the channel there are videos on both. Keep watching the skies, man.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Superb, thank you. I will be referencing back to this periodically. And thankfully I do own one Bayley, might read that next.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Don't give in to him Steve! He's just the narrow end of the Hegemony!
@@waltera13 - No, he's one of my Sixth Colmunists
Forgot to mention: If you already like Night Shade Books, their 5 volume Collected Works of Clark Ashton Smith really nice. The TPB's are $11- $15 ea depending, {but you MUST have a connection} (like the Wm Hope Hodgson ones as well.) So much better than paying the same money for an incomplete 2nd hand Gollancz collection that's well read. When in doubt, all his stories are up at the Eldritch Dark website
Loved Colin Greenland's Take Back Plenty, but the sequels didn't quite catch the magic of the first.
Agreed. I think he bowed to commercial pressure rather than artistic need to write them.
Another very watchable informative episode Steve, many thanks
Thanks Robert, we do what we can here!
Definitely need to read more Bear, seen he died last week so feels the right time
Well, he was prolific. I certainly have more to read by him, despite first encountering him in 1985.
You could do a few deep dive book hauls from your illusive B formats ;)
This has been planned for a very long time but will finally take place in March - well, it won't be 'book hauls' as such, for I generally only buy B Format paperbacks new, or if I do buy them they get featured this way anyway, but I will be doing a B Format Shelf Tour to reveal my SF in this now standard format.
Perhaps someone should find the time to request Wikipedia write an article about "Gene Rats". It seems a worthy endeavor. Thanks for this bit of history, OB. I often feel as though I'm taking fun and interesting SF Lit classes in college when I watch your episodes! Cheers.
I think David Pringle would be the man for the job, really- I have to ask him about the detail (should have done so before I filmed this one really) but it gives me an excuse to contact him as it's been a while!
@@outlawbookselleroriginal It would probably raise more steam if there was an article stub on the subject first (it shows interest.)
Informative and enjoyable as always, thank you.
My pleasure Jack!
Your suggestions for "Literary Space Opera" are exciting and inciting! They incite me to go out and look for a bunch of books I wont read right away from that list below as well as in the video. Dangerous talk near Christmas!
Any sentence that uses 'Christmas' is dangerous in my opinion!
@@outlawbookselleroriginal it's a lovely pagan holiday brutally co-opted away from the Germans by southern Americans. You can tell by how it pivots on slave labor South American coffee, and the cups within which it is presented.
@@waltera13 Well yes, but my antipathy is entirely down to the way it dominates people's consciousness completely for months on end (and in retail, it NEVER goes away- it 'ends' in theory in late january, with the final unwanted gift exchanges/refunds, but then someone will mention it in february, so it's a constant thing for the retailer - yes, that's how I make my living, but it does grate after a few decades).
It's more that fact that you simply cannot get away from it- especially if you leave the house- for two months. It's a form of psychic ritual totalitarianism. When I retire, I'm not 'doing Christmas' for a few years...actually, I will be, as I'm planning to spend it in Italy each year...
I'm a bit older than you and was around at the time. I know the movement and have had a difficult reading relationship with many of the authors involved. So I thought I knew the story and didn't need your opinion. As usual, I am an idiot. Thank you
I'm sure you're not an idiot, Brett! Good to have you on board here.
Hi Steve, Where would a good starting point for Burroughs be?
The answer is 'Junky', NOT 'Naked Lunch' - people who don't read 'Junky' first invariably struggle withj Bill's magnificent work. This video explains why: ua-cam.com/video/RDeGSeJ4QO4/v-deo.html
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Oops, I forgot you had this video. Thank you, I’ll make sure to rewatch. Also I’m going to buy Junky so I don’t forget.
@@GypsyRoSesx -You must: it's the same with 'Moby Dick' -it's not the first Melville anyone should read. You have to work up to these difficult titans by getting some early works in first. I've read 'Junky' at least 25 times (no kidding).
I think the "gene rats" movement is forgotten because it wasn't a movement. A new movement requires a new approach, a new vision, and for all that these writers were mostly capable, they failed to give SF a kick in the arse in the way the New Wave did. Instead they reworked well worn SF tropes, and there's nothing new in doing that. Paul McAuley is the best of them, as you say, but even his work has settled into a comfortable rut. My favourite among his novels are Fairyland and Pasquale's Angels, both of which, I think, are atypical.
Agreed, James.
'Sword and Singularity', I like that lol.
Yep, that did it for me too...
haha you say you cant keep doing book hauls..... its all i got!! hahahaha
Two more being filmed this week. Then it has to stop...until February maybe!
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Be Strong OB! ✊
@@outlawbookselleroriginal best Christmas gift ever ☺️ love a book haul, me ❤️
No more Shakespearos