PEX vs COPPER vs CPVC plumbing pipes
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- Опубліковано 12 лип 2018
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Here in Florida we are seeing major pipe failures with cpvc in homes 18 to 20 years old. And incredibly difficult to repair as it has become so brittle. Also problems with copper pipe due to corrosive nature of the water, we have found pin holes in copper pipes in property as little as 25 years old. Pex seems to be the only way but will wait and see
I live in Florida and have found the same problem with cpvc. It broke in one place and I broke it off in another just by moving the pipe slightly. Also, in attempting a repair the only way I could cut the existing pipe was with a hack saw. It's so brittle than cutting it with a cpvc cutting tool caused the pipe to shatter. I'm on an artesian well with very hard water and high sulphur content. Don't know if that is a factor.
@@franktiller8874 My guess is that maybe some of the minerals in the very hard water leeched the protective chemicals out of the cpvc causing it to become brittle. If replacing most, or all, of the cpvc in your home would be cost-prohibitive (highly likely), then perhaps installing a water softener or other form of filtration to try and lower the water hardness might help?
@@PongoXBongo Thanks for your suggestion. I think you are correct and will look into a water softener.
I'm in south GA and have cpvc in my 22yr old home. I was replacing the faucet on my tub and opened a can of worms. The cpvc pipe broke when I moved it slightly. It broke under the house though, at the T where it downsized from 3/4 to 1/2 for the tub line. Repairing it with PEX.
@@franktiller8874 CPVC is crap...but u know that...Hard water is tough on everything! We had an OLD water heater with 20 extra pounds of 'Iron sludge' in it from when it was new and empty ! For hard water up here in Granite NH I use a Rope style Prefilter and then Charcoal in a 2 Cartridge System. I only plumb them to the Toilet and Kitchen sinks. Saves on filter costs. Keeps toilet shiny too, and Flush valves stay clean. Good coffee and Ice water...CPVC sucks from the start, replace it whenever and wherever you can. Many Lawsuits over the crap in past years...Good Luck!
Pro tip. The clear primer does a great job of taking purple stains out. Also pro tip, only by the clear primer. I learned this when installing a brand new tub... dumped an entire bottle in a brand new tub. I thought I was going to have to get a new tub. Clear primer took the stain completely out
Amazing tip. Thank you.
Careful if there is someone inspecting the plumbing, a lot of code doesn’t allow clear primer because you can’t tell if it’s been primed. That’s why it’s purple, they can tell easily
@@SirPokemonX
Yeah, purple primer is literally just clear primer with a dye added to show it was used.
One thing that was not mentioned about pex tubing is the fact that it is the only one that does not burst when water freezes in it. I have personally seen pex swell twice it's original size from water freezing in the line and shrunk back to its original size as soon as the ice was cleared from the water lines. Afterwards the water system operated as if it were just installed that day.
I just had frozen pipes in my house. Copper. Luckily, all survived. The only thing broke is brass rough in valve in the shower. But yes flexibility of PEX would be useful. . But how pex fittings perform in this scenario ?
PEX A is more freeze forgiving than PEX B.
Had pex b break from freezing many times
25 years ago, christmas, 2am *drip*drip*. Walked down the steps into a wet warm puddle of dirty water. Copper heating pipes had a hole at the lowest point, all water leaked out. Took me hours to get that spot dry for soldering. Dried the floor (new wood). Next work day I bought a press/crimping tool. Never soldered copper again. Copper only for repair, otherwise only composite pipes with their press fittings. What a pleasure to work with, repaired the pressure valve on the ww heat pump yesterday. Greetings from metric Germany, watching your channel here too.
I diagnosed two problems in my house after watching this video. Thanks a ton!
Matt, about 20 years ago, my son did a science fair project on PEX vs copper. At the time Wirsbo/Uponor was the new kid on the block in the northwest, and the only PEX available to my knowledge. And, yes, a 20 year success rate in Europe. My husband having been raised a plumber and a forward thinking man encouraged the project for our son. In the north, wintertime brings frozen pipes and spring brings flooding from houses not winterized and left by snow birds or the electricity went out while a family left for a winter vacation. In the process of the project, we kinked a pipe to damage it and were able to repair the pipe with a heat gun because of its amazing memory. There was another test that I fail to remember, but most importantly, we attached a cap on one end and a valve on the other end of 2 copper and 2 PEX pipes, filled them with water and put them into a deep freezer. The next day, I was shocked at the amount of damage to both the copper pipes as well as their attached valves. However, the PEX pipes were both swollen from the freezing but did not break. There was no damage to the valves. All 4 were displayed at the science fair, the PEX still holding water although no longer frozen. I would never consider using anything but Uponor PEX in the north where you’re dealing with frozen pipes. Copper is definitely a money maker for a plumber repairing broken plumbing, but it’s not a smart choice if your house might not have heat for any reason in a cold winter.
Thank you for your post it is very interesting and helpful for us. Love the experiment!
Look up Uponor Lawsuits. It’s a ticking time bomb.
@@gsu1612thank you
Metal doesn’t expand in the cold, while Pex and plastics can. For potable water, in my opinion, longevity of copper vs. pex/synthetics is the crucial factor. I would not trade copper longevity for plastic pipe forgiveness when frozen. Plastics, all plastics, leach and get brittle. Give me copper any day, but get me a plumber who doesn’t screw it up with bad soldering, or doesn’t wipe away flux that is acidic on copper.
Best video on youtube explaining the different type of pipes.
A big issue you overlooked with copper is the effect that water quality has on it. Hard water in particular in our house kept eating through the damn lines, we were replacing sections every year or two when new pinhole leaks would pop up. We replaced it all with PEX and haven't had any issues for several years now.
Good to know 👍
im having pinholes everymonth is crazy im not aplumber but i been fiximg e with shark bitesconnection it might be time to replace all pippimg i just domt now which one is gonna hamdle my well water is crazy is stromg culligan told me i need to spend over 3k o some water softener tank 😢
If you know that, why would you install house or accessible filter housings, rather than replacing pipes.
Those pinholes could be manufactured defect (which easily effects synthetics too, cement mixes, pavers, any manufactured product), or incompetent plumbers who don’t wipe away flux which is an acid on metal.
If you have stainless steel or galvanized, piping, touching copper, or in the system, it will cause electrolysis, and the pipe will get pinhole leaks. Also, the Chinese pipe that came over for a few years is notorious for early failure.
I'm in a country where there's lots of chlorine in the water. PEX hardens. It's been 15 years since a pipe I rerouted is installed. It's no longer PEX, it's frozen solid, it's a harder plastic now. No leaks, no problems, but I expect it to eventually become brittle
This is the 5th of your videos that I’ve watched. Not my first video about piping, but I still learned a lot. Great delivery and prod value. Your mike pickup and room tone are excellent, and your humility is admirable. Kudos for giving credit to TOH for lessons learned. Upvoting and passing this on.
I work for an engineering firm, and design plumbing HVAC for a living. Pex is fine. Copper is fine.
Some installers are very good with Pex, and they make wonderful, neat installs. Some are less skilled and things look a bit sloppy/spaghetti-like. Caveat: my opinion is use Pex-A ONLY. Pex-B is inferior.
Some installers are very good with copper. They get perfectly straight lines, and things look "razor sharp". Some are less skilled and they don't use enough hangers, things are droopy, and suffer from water hammer, and have pinhole leaks.
I use CPVC for gas furnace flues.
It's not the copper or whatever, it's the installer. I've been to several homes/buildings where the shower head plumbing wasn't fixed to a stud so of course it jiggles around when you adjust the shower head/spray etc. Same on toilet angle valves, suspended in space, loose and some are up against a stud or the concrete so tightly you have to hammer out concrete to make room for a connector to extend the pipe so a new valve and bracket can be installed, the correct way. This involves a plumber, drywall guy and a painter for those who will hire the job out. This makes a simple unscrew the angle valve for $10 into an $800 or more cluster that will take a few days. Builders: Hire experienced tradesmen. We new home buyers and home remodel types are looking for decent tradesmen who have a craft vs. what you guys call "cheap labor". We can spot it a mile away and if your crews are of those qualifications, we won't use you or buy a home built by you and your cheap labor. The first thing we do look for is your truck and how many thousands of dollars you blow on lift kits, big tires/wheels etc vs. the equipment you bring onto the job site. The more you spend on your personal stuff, the less we are interested in contracting with you. Decent contractors spend their profits back into the company in the latest equipment and tools to do good accurate construction, learn the trade via trade groups, seek reliable suppliers and labor with skills and the knowledge required to start a job right the first time.
Pex B is better except in flow rate and the difficulty of installing it verse pex A. It's stronger, less likely to burst in freezing temperatures, more resistance to chlorine, a little more difficult for rodents to chew through, and if it's installed correctly, won't leak.
Great video. I am a part time, summer CSA at Lowe's and work in plumbing. This is a good education for me. It helps me to explain to the customer the types of water lines and connections.
Peter Steitz please please please do everyone a favor and suggest them to STAY AWAY from CPVC pipes... they’re legit the worst! Too brittle and easy to break. anything else is better, I question daily why the hell cpvc is still in codes. It’s a plumbers nightmare. Anytime I see cpvc I change it to something else to be more stable and less breakable
I've used both PEX and copper they both work well I've never had an issue with either now I've seen 80 year old houses with copper pipes and absolutely no issues of course none of us have yet seen a house with PEX pipes that are that old so no telling how this will really hold up in a long long time PEX is great for mobile homes rental properties or flipping houses because nobody's going to steal all the PEX pipe out of your house but if I was going to build a half a million dollar house for myself to live in the rest of my life I would use copper
Very helpful for me as I am thinking I want to flip a schoolbus into a motorhome. I am planning or hoping that I can get some copper fixtures faucets for looks but for everything else PEX and PVC will be my go to.
Acidic water makes pinhole leaks in copper.
Thank you for providing a quality video on the difference between plumbing options. I’ve struggled with rural customers debating on their current home. I will forward your video to my clients as a base for them to make their choice.
7 years ago I bought a foreclosed house (to live in) were someone stole all of the copper. I'm an electrician not a plumber. I replumbed the house in PEX using what was at Home Depot. PEX - B and SharkBite and crimp connections. I home-ran everything. After 7 years, not a problem. Now I'm in Phoenix and I left some PEX outside. After a couple of years it became brittle and easily snapped, so I completely agree with Matt's assessment with UV and PEX. How this helped.
The sun eats everything out here
I think metal survives heat more than synthetics.
Hot damn, just bought a new to me house, discovered TWO spots in the attic that the copper is leaking yesterday. The first four minutes of this video just explained the likely reason why.. Thanks Matt!
Those are easy to repair too. Likely any repair will last long as well.
Hello Matt thanks for your episode about pex, copper and cpvc it was of great insight for people like me who are new in the remodeling houses. It helped me choosing which type to go with on my first rental ,thanks Francis!
In my home near the Gulf Coast (i.e., no basement - the pipes are out in the open air), the old CPVC joint failed (I repaired it myself) on the hot water line (the cold water line was an old galvanized steel line). However, a few years later, a hard freeze (18F) obliterated the CPVC pipe section (evidently, I did not have the hot water line dripping enough), and I got a plumber to put in PEX.
Didn't mention freezing? Copper will split, CPVC will split, PEX-A will survive.
Also, CPVC gets super brittle over time and snaps easily making it susceptible to damage and hard to repair because it splits lengthwise when cut.
And how about the cost of fittings? Copper fittings probably average $3 each. That's worth mentioning. PEX can use brass or plastic fittings. CPVC fittings are dirt cheap.
Oh, and PEX-A can be heated to undo kinks. PEX also tends to have a smaller ID than same size CPVC/Copper.
Pex expands. However. Pex rings and fitting don’t
copper kills bacteria and viruses, PEX and CPVC will promote bacterial growth.
@@blacquejacqueshellaque6373 Maybe when it is new but after a short time it forms a rust coating that isolates the copper from the water. In fact the old galvanized pipe, as bad as it is, attracted heavy metals and make the water taste much better.
@@blacquejacqueshellaque6373 sulfur eats copper for breakfast
Another thing nobody ever mentions when comparing copper to Pex or CPVC is that rodents can't chew through copper. If you live in the woods with squirrels, mice, rats or any other wildlife that can get into your house, it's worth the price to use copper. I've heard about a lot of houses having to be replumbed because the Pex was destroyed by rodents.
Uh, you do know that there are protection sleeves + insulation for them.
If you have rats in your house you have more problems than pipes!!
Excellent point
@@edenassos and then it should be added to cost consideration
Yes, this is why I always put my pex inside a protection sleeve of copper pipe.
25 years with my copper pipes,.....never knew what a plumbing issue looks like....i guess i will continue with my comfortable life for a looong time ....
@Semper Fi Never seen that happen, and in the video the one case he ever heard of was from a rusted out waterheater cramming the hot water pipe with rust and causing corrosion.
Good chance it will last another 25.
I purchased a new home 13 years ago I remove all cpvc dumped in garbage and i install new copper type L made in usa with made in usa copper fitting bcz I love house I want it keep for years without worrys some plastic water line bust and destroyed all house on second
This was a very informative video, thank you.
As a licensed plumber I must say that this episode made me cringe with durability and lifespan descriptions... Copper decays for quite a few reasons when no foreign substances are involved, it could just be a failure to ream a pipe or too many joints causing turbulence in the flow. CPVC might be easy to repair but it is way more costly when you figure in the long term costs that it will cause when it snaps and floods an area. Pex is not without fault but it is very durable, keeps workable, and will even expand with frozen lines instead of bursting.
PS: Don't Tell people they can happily get away with type M copper, no plumber worth their weight would recommend it due to it's tendency to fail with any kind of hard water. Also, there are more than 2 types of types of copper and that's not even mentioning soft and hard copper.
Type L copper is domestic water piping. Type M copper is for heating systems. K copper is medical gas
All depends on where you live and the local codes. We can use type M for all domestic water
I am cringing and biting my tongue until it bleeds.
As a retired plumber I'm about to go through the roof!
Best to leave credible plumbing advice to the plumber.
I like copper
I’m a HVAC guy not a plumber but right or wrong the thought of plastic pressurized pipes full of water scares me. Our house was built in 1998 and is all hard copper. Drains of course are pvc. So far no leaks. We do occasionally have a hammering effect can’t seem to fix it so I don’t worry about it. I expect the copper plumbing will out last me.
I grew up in a house with copper as well and do not remember any floods or leaks other than clogs. I do not know if it was copper originally as it was built in 1933. It was destroyed by hurricane Charlie. The builder of their new home used Pex hopefully it will last. But I doubt it.
www.thisoldhouse.com/plumbing/21017327/how-to-stop-copper-pipe-corrosion
Matt, your videos are awesome! Thanks man, you've helped me out a bunch !
Good info. I have used all 3 also. Now, I try to exclusively use PEX. Sharkbite, I only use for going from copper to PEX, and never on the PEX side. A few years ago, I plumbed a house using PEX and Sharkbite. Did not get back to my project for a few weeks, but had it pressurized and checked it every few days. after 3 weeks, I saw a drop of water on several of the fittings. I do not attribute this to the product, but rather the squareness of the cut. On copper, it is pretty hard to not get a very square cut. On PEX, especially if you are using coiled PEX, it is almost impossible to get a square cut, because you are cutting into a curved pipe.
CPVC does not last 50-70 years in Alabama in my experience, I see 20-30 year old CPVC so brittle that you can't even repair it because when you go to cut it the whole thing shatters. Maybe it's something in our water here, but we always replace it on remodels if we ever run into it
sounds like UV radiation damage
I have a 1994 built duplex with brittle cpvc and it was below sink so no UV damage.
In my experience, CPVC does not last that long either. It is extremely brittle with age and we don’t install it unless needed. PEX or copper with propress is the way to go in my book.
-Journeyman Plumber in GA
What do you replace it with? PEX?
I found the same problem with my CPVC and changed to PEX. I had a bath install about 15 years ago and when I went to remodel I found the CPVC was very brittle.
Deal with pin hole leaks all the time but never really noticed that they are usually on hot lines.. good info ty.
great video I used pex b in my house over 25 years ago, great stuff easy to install
This was a GREAT explanation of the 3 plumbing pipes. Thanks for sharing your expertise.
Excellent video. My house was built in 1950 with copper and some remodeling in 1970's with cpvc. I have found the cpvc has gotten really brittle. I am currently remodeling with a combination of copper and pex.
Exactly. I was in the process of a sink and cabinet replacement and the cpvc broke with mild handling. A catastrophe waiting to happen.
The only thing I would change about this channel is I wish it was about northern houses lol amazing channel man.
I know. NS Builders is a nice channel (Boston based). What I'd like to see on both channels is $/sqft numbers on houses they are building. Is it a secret or something?
yeah but the north doesnt need dehumidifiers and air conditioners
Blox117
Have you ever been to Boston? Unless of course you don't consider it North enough.
Blox117 That’s not remotely true. Temperatures can vary as widely as 100 degrees within a year. Not having A/C in the summer can be dangerous.
I second that
Very helpful video. We are in the middle of a new build and I didn’t know to even ask these questions.
I live in northern Idaho. I like to go look at new construction and see what's going on. All of the new houses where I live have used PEX. After listening to some of your videos, I'm sure that is the product I will use for replumbing my house (mentioned in another comment).
Good job Matt with the information, hey you never thought of getting your own tv show like the ones were they show the start and finish of a house being remodeled. I like the way you give more information of the supplies you use on a house and go more in depth of what it takes to build a home...just throwing an idea..👍👍
He's like the Alton Brown of home construction & remodel 😉
Thank you for the information. I've just moved to Texas, bought a house and all I see is this blue and red piping coming out from the walls. I found the name when I went to the local hardware store. Something I need to learn to fix when there is a problem
Its very very esy to fix!! Youll love working with it.
Did it freeze??
Pex is a dream to work with. Cut affected area, snap on fittings to both ends, cut piece to fit. No heat or electricity needed whatsoever.
It would be worth mentionning the importance of checking your local building code before choosing your plumbing type. Also, as I have also used the 3 types of pipes, I have noticed that pex will withstand frost very well, while CPVC and copper will not at all.
I would prefer copper due to it antibacterial properties. Would only use the highest quality too.
First-class instructional video!
Hammering in copper can be fixed by using a coiled length of type k usually at the termination of the line that is affected. It simply absorbs the shock. The one thing I see by reading most of the comments is that plumbing is affected differently in different locations and water ingredients.
Water hammer arrestor is what your thinking of i believe.
Yes a hammer arrestor. Expensive to buy already made but can be made with a tee fitting, a short section of pipe and a cap for way cheaper.
Ok where to start with this one....
Pinhole leaks in copper water systems are not rare at all. They are quite common in Florida. We repair pinhole leaks on a regular basis both above and below ground on horizontal and vertical piping. When soldering copper always apply solder beginning at the point on the joint farthest from the heat you are applying and always wipe the area around the joint with a dry cloth after soldering to clean up excess flux and prevent corrosion. Water hammer is can easily be prevented by adding a hammer arrestor at vulnerable points (Ice maker, dishwasher, clothes washer, lavitories, etc..).
I have been installing CPVC and repairing it for years. After about 5-10 years, give or take, the tubing begins to get brittle. Also if you are not diligent in properly cutting and gluing the fittings it is possible to have a fitting blow off several minutes or even hours after the water is turned back on. This is my personal worst nightmare as a plumber and for these reason I try and avoid using CPVC where I can. There are atleast two majior manufacturers of CPVC in my area, Flowguard Gold and Silver Line. Flowguard Gold is the industry standard and the only product I would use. Do not.... use primer and glue on CPVC. There is a yellow all in one primer and glue made by Flowguard Gold that you should use. I am not sure if it is the case anymore but in the past, Flowguard golds warentee was only good on systems that used the pipe, fittings, and glue made by the manufacturer.
If you need to use a PVC primer in an area where you are worried about dripping or spilling purple, there is a clear primer for PVC that is the exact same thing but without the dye. The coloring is added so plumbing inspectors can see that primer was used on the joint and not just glue.
Pex type A is defiantly the best of the bunch in my opinion. My only reservations are to see if the piping can maintain its flexibility over several decades, but only time can tell.
God this turned into a full on rant...
Copper pipe + chloramine (disinfectant) = pinhole leaks
@@KreemieNewgatt copper pipe+ water=pinholes
@@researchair7693 LOL ya that too
@@KreemieNewgatt I was wondering why pinholes might be common in the US for copper, but that's a very reasonable explanation (also mixing metals, like in the boiler and the piping is an issue). I have other experiences with copper, no pinholes, for many decades. (But where I live, no disinfectant is used in the water systems, so that's maybe why I never experienced that issue).
@@petersatzer3010 It became a problem with increased use of chloramines, which were used to reduce THM's in water which are formed as byproduct of chlorine on organics. Municipal water system have other treatment options, but like chloramines because they're cheap. The cost has been shifted to ppl w/ copper pipe in their homes.
Ppr pipes and fittings are cheap and very good. I recommend installing it in the homes. Did rly a lot of homes with the thing. Very grateful material
Very well done and informative video. Thanks, Build Dude!
Learned a lot from the comments section. Where the pros give their opinions from their hard won experience, laboring in the dank, wet and cold.
BTW, I watched a few of these videos & it is suggested NOT to use shark-bites connectors inside walls. Since shark-bites are a relatively new product there are some concerns. There is a rubber O-ring inside these connectors that may dry out from chlorine (in some waters) causing leaks. I suggest buying some "Jack's" lubricant which is used for swimming pool O-rings. Do NOT use a petrol based lubricant (Vaseline, etc.) on rubber. "Vaseline or other petroleum products should never be used on rubber or neoprene objects. It can deteriorate the rubber or neoprene very rapidly. The correct lube to use is a silicone based lubricant, which comes with or without Teflon. This is available in spa or pool stores." "Jack's Formula 327 Multilube, SP0327 by Hayward. Pool & Spa lubricant for o-rings and threads on pool equipment." I would presume, if one's water contains chlorine one would use Jack's....if needed in these shark-bites. ????????????????????
Quality videos and no BS. Thank you sir
Great video with tons of information. Really appreciate it.
He failed to mention one of the main reasons copper isn’t used much anymore: Theft.
I can’t even tell you how many jobs I’ve picked up replacing stolen water lines with pex. Good for me, not good for home owners/insurance companies. It’s amazing how much damage a thief will cause in order to get $20 worth of scrap copper, which roughly translates into 2-3 nice crack hits. With the amount of work it takes to remove the copper, plus the risk of multiple felonies, it would be a lot easier just to get a job. I’ve often commented that with all the experience a thief gets working with copper, he’d probably make a decent plumbers apprentice.
Did a job where the code required copper, after it was stolen twice, we painted it in pex colors and the stupid crackheads left it alone, so we painted some pex scrap in spray paint copper and the morons stole it!
My parents church had the copper pipes stolen twice in a expansion. I have a rental house that the outdoor unit of the heap pump was stolen while still hooked up electrically and with refrigerant.
@@anonjag Very innovative! I love it!
U must be kidding! 😄
I can't imagine a burgler breaking in a private (secured) home with an electric 100dB noisy grinder to cut few feet of copper pipes hidden behind a plaster wall...for $20 bucks instead of running away smoothly in 30sec. with a TV or other small valuable items!
Those who are stealing copper pipes from private homes must be the workers themselves...
If we speak about stealing from an open-air, larger industrial land/ property / facility then, yes, stealing is a fact.
@@Mike-ql4sz You don't need a power tool. A prybar to open the walls, and bolt cutters to section up the pipe. Very little noise. The house next to where I used to live went vacant when the bank took possession from the previous owners. The town had to shut off the water because the underground line was slowly eroding a sinkhole under the sidewalk. When the new owners did their first walkthrough, the found barely enough copper in the whole building to fill a coffee can, and apparently either the previous owner or the thieves had taken the more expensive parts off the furnace as well. - The poor bank had to drastically sweeten the deal to get the place sold, because they didn't bother to ever send anyone out to see if the place was locked up.
Matt, I have replaced CPVC that is 20 years old, at least here in Ohio. It can get extremely brittle with age. I have literally had it break while attempting to strap down old CPVC or or cutting it to repair or add a fitting.
100% agreed. Cpvc that is aged is a nightmare. That cutting tool shown would split down the run length on aged pipe.
CPVC gets brittle with age! Just go PEX or Copper! I could go on about but just sayin ....
Copper for whomever has the money and PEX A for the budget minded!
I just had a leak in my CPCV hot water line in the ceiling, above the bathroom. I live in Orange County Calif. The plumber said he has been in business for 20 years and never saw CPVC. @@thomasw1144
Exactly the video I needed!!
Love you Matt. Building a new house and learnt so much!
I certainly learned something new from this video, and from the comments too. If you are really interested in a topic on this channel, you should read the comments because experienced guys watch the build show too. They often make enlightened comments that are quite valuable.
I've worked for a couple of people who own rental property and the one thing I can say for PEX is that it takes freezing better than copper of CPVC. I've seen it frozen solid, thaw and be fine. PEX and Apollo would be my first choice if I was doing a complete replumbing or new installation.
Apollo PEX is made in CHi - na. As Matt says - 'No Bueno.' YMMV.
Great video. Very detailed. Thank you!
First time watching i understand what you are saying using 3/4 to 1/2 water lines and how much better is to go bigger Keep up the good work
I used cpvc in my house nearly 40 years ago on a major remodel. It's still doing ok. I only used Genova because the other brands had fillers and seemed to be lower quality.
I have used CPVC since 1991.
I have 43 year old CPVC and no leaks so far.
Have you considered that the fittings for PEX reduce the pipe size significantly. CPVC fittings go on the outside of the pipe ,same with copper. Pex fittings go on the inside and reduce the amount of water that can flow through the pipen
Fascinating! Thanks for the educational information!!!
Very Informative! Directly To The Point! I did not know that Hot Water Heaters have an Anode!
Cpvc purple primer spills... can be mostly cleaned off using clear primer on it.
some states require Purple primer to make sure you actually used a primer, some states also let you use the Gold pvc glue so no primer required
I had bad luck with the clear primer. Believe it or not, clear glue works well to get the purple up
You can not get primer that is clear but when the inspector shines a blacklight over it, it will look purple.
why do I always see cpvc stored outside in the sun at my local plumbing supply- maybe that's why it goes brittle
is it all sizes, or just DWV stuff?
Great info, easy to understand, good English pronunciation too !!!
much love. I am not in the trades, but was given some info by the original plumbing contractor who did the townhouses where I used to live where the copper was failing after 20 years, and I found a professor who did studies in pex causing water to smell like gasoline (not a problem anymore, but still makes me think of having one copper line for drinking water).
I was told the water chemistry had been changed as our water district (Moulton Niguel. Orange County, Ca.) moved away from chloromines to drop-out pariculate in the storage tanks. The result was instead of forming a healthy, protective layer of patina, when you ran your finger inside a section of pipe I cut out there was just a thin black greasy film: without the patina the copper was left exposed to the wild shifts of pH..up to 8 or 9.
Upanor won't guarantee past ten years unless you're certified in their system, and then it's 20 years.
That plumbing contractor was retired but gave me copies of the original stub-up sketches & referred me to a plumber who, for $250, spent 45 minutes teaching me how to make a rig that used a bicycle pump to troubleshoot slab leaks, and i had to re-route three below, and patch three others...my Ex is gonna hate me for not pulling permits when she eventually sells...what am I saying, she made me homeless! still wish I could've done that re-pipe for her.
again, love ur shows
One bad thing about copper that was barely mentioned was the heat conducting property of copper. Even when insulated, copper pipe sinks heat way more than either of the plastics. My house is a large ranch plumbed with copper, and some fixtures are fairly distant from the water heater. I have to run the hot water quite a bit just to get hot water coming out when first using the fixture. You can feel the water temp rise slowly as the hot water gets through the pipe, then finally heats up the pipe itself. If the pipe is not insulated, the heated water left in the pipe cools quickly. The only option to improve the wait time is to install a circulator which wastes energy and water.
A circulator isn’t the only solution, although it could be one of the simplest/cheapest install solutions for improving hot water in the far away bathroom. You could get a small local water heater for the distant bathroom and have it in the closet near the bathroom, in the crawlspace/basement below the bathroom, etc.
@@MarlinRoth Yeah, point of use water heaters could be a good solution
I put a five gallon electric under my vanity to serve that whole battery,then fed it with a hot water pipe, not cold from the main water heater 75 feet away.been working 28 years .
Right but my testosterone levels won't sink because I'm drinking plastic water.
I've used all of these systems. I have had good experience with modern cpvc (this is not to be confused with polybutylene). The current product is rated for 50 years, same as copper according to national standards. I used to swear by copper when I did plumbing 25 years ago, but pex and cpvc have proven themselves in the last two decades.
Can you elaborate on PEX vs CPVC?
@@ravinkrishnan3183 PEX is easy to route through walls and floors with minimal connections. Cpvc is easier to connect because it's just glued, so no special tools required. Cpvc holds up to sunlight, PEX will deteriorate and cannot be left in sunlight. PEX B is more durable in the long run, as cpvc should not be moved or disturbed once installed. Cpvc does not remain flexible like PEX. They are both rated at 50 years if installed properly. I work with both and find that PEX is better for a whole new system, but I use cpvc for updating sections or smaller repairs. Does that help? There are definitely problems with both systems.
I live in a suburb of Dallas that was built from 75 to 84. Neighbors on next door are always posting asking for advice about fixing under slab leaks. It's always copper that the builders used, springing leaks. Some people have leaks every couple of years. The trend now is to reroute all the water pipes through the attic using pex. Depending on the plumber, I've seen prices from $8k to $20k for the reroute.
The conversations on next door always include a debate about copper vs pex. I've saved this video for the next time it shows up. Thanks!
I very much enjoyed the informative video as a past "owner builder" of a house. Our previous neighbor in Vancouver Canada (we moved aboard a sailboat 5 years ago) has been instructed by his insurance company to have all Pex plumbing removed from their quite new home of approx. 10 years or they will not be covered by insurance. I found this to be quite shocking as the house I built in 2006 was plumbed with Pex to save on labour costs and was recommended by my plumbing contractor....on my future build (when we return to land life), I would probably go back to traditional copper.
Good information. It might be worth asking the insurance agents if their is any cost difference in a home with Copper vs PEX. If it's higher for PEX built construction, I'd think the insurance industry has some records that water issues are higher with PEX since they end up paying for the damage the water did.
As a woman I love when you discuss these issues and I know Everything that your discussing. Knowledge is power! You dont have to do the work but you need to know about it.
Copper pipes always get stolen in vacation houses! So for that reason, I use Pex or CP.
As a few others have stated cpvc gets VERY brittle over time. Maybe the chemistry has changed a bit over time, but I've had valves break off in my hand simply trying to turn them off while trying to also hold them I'm place with pliers to prevent them from breaking. If I'm simply replacing a faucet or whatever with cpvc piping I turn the water off to the house before proceeding with simple maintenance of plumbing fixtures since the piping is so brittle.
I have been doing a lot of remold jobs here in Upstate NY. I found that the old timers installed a T and a 90 degree elbow off there highest plumbing fixtures supply lines which aloud them to put a one foot vertical copper pipe going straight up with a cap on it on both hot and cold supply. That stopped the water hammering!
Thanks for that tip! I noticed the same thing and was going to remove this as I figured it was just another dead leg in an old house. But this makes a lot of sense. The vertical pipe is full of air which compresses like a spring to remove water hammer. Very simple and effective. It can be on any level btw but should be close to the largest source of water hammer.
Thanks for the video! Well done!
Love your video. Your channel is going to take off. How about characteristics of temperature and pressure handling?
I live in a mobile home in Branson Mo and I'm in the process of renovating the whole system to pex using shark bites. I've kept the unused roll in the house until recently when I took it out to fix a small leak. It was dark and cold so I left it lay in the back yard. I'm glad you mentioned that it's not a good idea to do that. I hope I didn't ruin it. We are on a community well, and what I can say is we have HARD water. Which brings me to the question does hard water or systems using a water softener have an effect on the different types of piping? Thanks for sharing your expertise and video, Rodney
Shark bites only seal the pipe to fitting using one rubber O ring. Sharkbites are to be used as an emergency type fitting.
Just used pex and shark bite for a new laundry room in our garage so far so good...
I found several burst copper pipes and several degraded leaking elbows in a basement where the property was not heated. PEX-a would have survived.
It is best to keep your plumbing inside somewhat conditioned space. This basement had no insulation and half was above grade with solid stone walls.
licensed plumber here,, and i think that in the near future plastic pipe for potable water will be outlawed.
you cant tell me that all the chemicals used to make ,cpvc and pex dose not leach into the water that is in the pipe. just like lead solder was phased out
Not only that, it shatters when cut.
@@DillonPeterson so true! plus i did not mention the glue and cleaner used in cpvc piping. Just look at all the chemicals in that poison ! Do you really wanna drink water that has flowed thru that stuff?!
Do you think an RO system would take out contaminants?
@@jonnyg9330 .. Not sure , I have only installed A few reverse osmosis systems . Though it would have to be installed in line " after" the cpvc or pex piping
@@tracyridge6245 well ro have plastic pipe, but if it’s under the sink it’s minimal I guess. Whole house ro tds coming out under 50 and same when you read it at the sink...
Having used shark-bites quite a bit, in multi family housing, on the old grey polly pipe, the key to dependable repairs is the use of the debur tool. We had return visits on repairs until we purchased this tool. After that, no return repairs. I have also worked at properties with cpvc. The repairs are the same with Shark bites, but after 10 years, leaks develop, not at joints, necessarily, but in the middle of pipe runs,possibly from flexing.
Excellent and very helpful video. Thanks.
PEX blue main water line to my house, installed 2004, failed 2018. So it lasted 14 years. Location was midway between meter and house, with no obvious stressors. Also, on excavation, the PEX line next to the house was degraded. There were hairline cracks forming at a bend with slight leaking. I assume the bend was due to settling. I asked about replacement PEX vs Copper. Licensed plumber that I hired didn't sound super confident to PEX. Therefore I replaced with copper. This was in Georgia, red clay soil.
I heard the same from a plumber in Georgia. They have pex systems failing on new builds from 2015 in Georgia. Are you on cobb water?
@@LeeNobody Yes
Some old, 100 plus years copper pipe I've seen has a seam, it was sheet that was fabricated into pipe.
If made by a quality manufacturer, it is acceptable.
Great presentation! Very useful. Do you have experience repiping behind a brick/mortar walls and which pipe is more suitable?
Thanks!
I work at an injection molding company and all of our molding presses have pro press copper water lines up to 2" dia. We run water under pressure at temps up to 285 degrees through them and have never had an o-ring failure.
Lucky I have a huge stock pile of copper pipes. Its the only thing I use for my house.
Hope you are not on a well.
I had a sharkbite connector on pex line that ran to my sunroom and when the first freeze came, that connector popped right off and flooded the sunroom.
My house was built 2002 with all pex lines and a hot/cold manifold... was super easy to work on when I moved the water softener... needless to say when I build my new house in the next year or so it will also be done with pex lines.
Very Helpful thanks Im expanding my childhood home by adding a second story we already have copper originally im thinking cpvc may work ok.
Use PEX, cheap and easy.
I've seen CPVC degrade in 20 yrs got brittle and breaking in odd places.
Someone told me: replace your plumbing with a high grade of synthetic PEX plumbing. The specific brand we specify for our clients' homes is Upinor. It is more resilient and better than the typical PEX plumbing supply lines.
All my PEX's live in Texas.
That's why I glue my joints of CPVC.
PEX is dominate....good luck cutting cpvc after 20 yrs...LOL
??????????????? ~~~~~WTF~~~~~????????????
@@joeyocom5087 It's a song.
Funny
Yep, Jason you are correct, it's the next big replacement cost facing many homeowners, I installed miles of it. It turns out , it can't hold up to high temp. Water,....and don't bury sharkbight fittings,...can't stand up too the minerals in the ground
I have worked on my PEX at the Jim this week. I thought that would be a funny one comment. I agree with your astute remarks on copper. I dont understand why so many pipe guys have walked away from what for me is “pipe metal of choice”. I agree that some yo you do pad their bid, and you have to be sharp not to get hosed. I like to use type M. How would anyone know they can get 75 years out of copper, I doubt highly that an old plumber would go back to a house 75 years later to check. If he put in that pipe when he was say 27, he would have to be alive when he was 102. So I rest my case that this is just what they call a hypothesis and not a water tight fact. If you agree with that, then I have no gripe today, so ignore the statement. Like your videos, they help me learn to become a better man
10 feet of half 8nch copper is now 35 nux .that's the main reason pex is taking over
Brother-in-law had a few pin holes in the copper in his house a few years back. Apparently a lot of the houses in that area had similar issues around the same time. That area was built up in the 70's and it's not, as you might say, an affulent area. I wonder if it was a trend of people not maintaining or replacing their water tanks.
Marc Crocker Most of the pinhole leaks are due to electrolysis. Electrolysis is a galvanic reaction when a dissimilar metal touches copped. Something as simple as a metal band used for strapping touching the pipe could cause it to happen. The way to stop electrolysis is to disconnect the metal touching the copper.
Cameron: Please be specific when you warn against "metal" touching copper, which is also "metal." Iron is more reactive than copper, in oxidation-reduction chemistry. So usually, iron will deteriorate when put in proximate contact with copper. So I assumed that copper would not degrade. To my amazement, the test of time (over decades) has shown that copper can spring leaks thanks to iron flakes propagated into copper piping systems, especially on horizontal pipes. Matt cited this when mentioning This Old House seminal lecture on the dangers coming from old hot water heating tanks whose sacrificial anodes have depleted.
Sacrificial anode metals are even more reactive than ion, on the redox chart, and have long been used on ship hulls to deter corrosion of steel.
So, even though copper is famously stable, it can be killed by oxidized and partially-oxidized iron. That wasn't supposed to happen, according to my college chemistry book.
It's funny ya know, I've had plumbers give me shit for running a armoured cable(electrical cable with an aluminium outer sheath) across their copper pipes. Fair enough, it's easy to wrap my cable with some electrical tape in those sections to saperate those metals. Yet, at the point where their water meter is, they will have a rack build out of uni-strut(which is aluminium) and not bat an eye. Refrigeration techs do the same thing with their copper lines. Maybe I got it wrong, maybe the copper doesn't react the same way to different grades of aluminium. Maybe they do have something saperating them and I missed it or they are supposed to have some saperation there and they missed it.
My hunch is that aluminum is not a problem but iron is a problem. Aluminum is so high on the redox chart (meaning it's very very reactive, while iron is only moderately reactive) that it always skins over with a tough oxide. That means, essentially, that aluminum immediately becomes "painted" when exposed to oxygen in the air. It stays "painted" (thus protected from further reactivity) even when occasionally wet. Iron corrodes in different patterns, irregularly, and is particularly obnoxious when splashed with non-distilled water. The saltier the water (meaning more dissociated ions; hence reactive, aggressive ions in solution) the worse. So all non-copper "metal" might be erroneously condemned as "hostile to copper," by blanket prohibition. On the other hand, codes require care be taken, on the hunch that once in a great while, something will get wet. etc etc.
JOHN BECICH Wow John, you are very knowledgeable about chemistry! The way that I was taught was a dissimilar metal touching copper. Metals that are closely alike with copper are permitted to touch per GA plumbing code.
So going back to my previous comment, not all metals are bad to touch copper. It is dissimilar metals that can cause a galvanic reaction.
I also have never heard of the rusty water and the deteriorated anode rod theory with copper pipes. It makes complete sense and if I can get a better understanding of it I may use it as a selling point.
I had my toilet with pex leak after 8 years and my bathroom sink had leaks after 18 years with pex. My house was built in 2002 all with pex.
Shawn Gabriel Sounds like you might have had polybutylene not Pex.
Likely poor installer on the job. The main cause for leaks is due to quality control on the labor these days as just about anyone with a heartbeat calls themselves a plumbing contractor yet never got their journeyman experience from a skilled craftsman.
Very helpful post. Looking like I'll be re piping a house here soon. Definitely want to use a reliable product with a good lifespan. Probably end up with either CPVC, or Type L copper. Thank you for the information.
Type L copper and CPVC are polar opposites . Don’t use CPVC.
Pinhole leaks were common in Plainview NY due to the water. Almost everyone experienced this in hot water pipes.
Your supposed to use the yellow glue on that flow guard gold buddy. One step glue. No primer
One step glue is illegal in any circumstances here in South Dakota.
So far my shark bite fittings has collected good amount of dust on them the last 10 years. Not a drop anywhere. Used them with combo of pex and copper. See what the next ten brings. Seen unskilled dudes cut pipe, had to ask if they used their teeth. Then they wonder why the fitting failed.
Shark bites are great, its just very expensive for fittings.
I recommend copper for valve installs but pex for the long runs.
We use "shark bite" type fittings in the UK.
Brilliantly they can be used on both polypipe and copper so running into a visible or exposed to uv system!
Never use shark bite inside a wall. They fail too often.
@@crosisofborg5524 I've never seen shark bite fittings fail unless frozen
Here’s some advice from a professional construction mgr with over 4 decades of experience across this and other continents.
There are serious water contamination consequences with pex. Google pex health hazards and read Purdue Univ study. There are also quality problems with pex fittings. Zinc fittings corrode and fail quickly; some EU brands are now banned in US. Next is installer capability. As the Corps of Engineers learned on a barracks in San Antonio if the pipe cuts are not perfectly square and pipe connections plumb and square they start to leak in 1-3 years. The Corps paid millions to remove pex and replace with copper. Then there is the ripoff. Pex is about $0.50/ft and copper about $4.50/ft. Get the plumber to quote both and see if the pex material cost is 10% or not. Putting pex in takes about 25-30% of copper or galvanized. See if these savings are quoted to you. If not guess who pockets them.
Lastly on pinhole leaks and meal pipe degradation, this is often caused by your electrical wiring being grounded to the plumbing instead of a true ground rod at the panel board. Electrical current, even milliamperes induces corrosion. There should be no wires connected to any plumbing or pipe; make sure electrical is done right.
Robert Morse : 1 u can use plastic fittings. 2 use of high zink is a cheaper production aka China shit. Shark bite uses less zink to manufacture its fitings that’s why they cost more. Does ur study point out brands? And levels of zink? Do they have comparison to plastic and other high quality production? Or some homo decided to do an experiment with shits for brain on random brass fitting that happens to be from China
Pex requires transition fittings at your fixtures, which raises the cost.
Continuity grounding for copper is required in some places so that nobody gets electrocuted by mistake when they’re taking a bath...
Yes grounding for copper is recommended and sometimes required. I am referring to grounding the electrical wiring to plumbing instead of using a proper independent electrical ground rod which does meet IBC. Grounding to plumbing does not meet code and accelerates destruction of plumbing metal. You ground each system separately.
Robert Morse
incorrect, IBC is not the authority for electrical installations and it is not a code violation to ground the piping
how did you get your electrical contractor license? lemme guess, you dont have one
Anytime someone begins with "I'm qualified because X" automatically makes me go... "really?" Sure, bub, sure. There be aliens in those woods, too.
Man, those numbers (100, 75, and 50 years) seem amazing these days.
My old red brick house is 89 years old and most of the old galvanized steel pipe is still working, even thou I am sure that the water flow is not as good as when it was new.
I am a homeowner and my home has PEX B tubing. No problem with crimped connections (ring type) but I have had two instances of pinhole leaks, both on the hot water side. One of them, just exiting the water heater, had four leaks and so I had to replace the section of pipe.
Even before the leaks, I decided to buy a crimping tool for pinch crimper. Both the tools and the stainless steel crimps are less expensive than for the ring type (purchased on Amazon). Plus if there is a mistake, crimps are easily removed and some can be reused. I go the special tool for removing a ring and it takes a lot of work removing one.
One tool that I got was a 18 volt battery operated crimper made by Ryobi. No matter what kind of crimper is used, the crimper must be oriented 90 degrees to the PEx tubing. Again, if there is a mistake, the crimp is easy to remove.
Having the ability to work with PEX plumbing enables me to perform plumbing repairs like replacing broken valves or instal new valves.
By the way, I would appreciate seeing a video on the pinhole leak problem.
I own a 100 + y/o house and it had cast iron pipes in most of the house. I replaced with PEX using Shark Bite fittings. The fitting are a little spendy but so easy to use. And the runs to my kitchen are in a crawl space that I have to force my big frame under the joists, so no gluing, no soldering, just cut and snap.
Same here with the old house and steel pipes, but I'm using copper(I don't trust pex for anywhere with chlorinated water). Also every horizontal steel pipe that wasn't under constant use has rusted completely shut.
Sharkbites are blowing up after 15 years so behind sheetrock is not good
Uponor Pex A all day long, with copper stub outs. Keep it outa the sun though!
Shark bit is great for emergency repairs.
At my job , which is a hvac and plumbing distributor, i barely see uponor pex ever go out , its mostly copper or pex
Connor Gadbois is there a different Pex? the stuff I use is labeled UPONOR PEX A, my understanding is that UPONOR is the brand name and Pex is an abbreviation of the type of plastic and that UPONOR makes three grades A B and C. I further understand that that the “A” is the superior of the options.
@@charleshetrick3152 we have blue/red pex by vieaga and watts , no clue the difference, we have orange fostapex , and we have the grey pex uponor , most of what we sell is watts red/blue pex or cts cpvc by Charlotte or copper but we stock it all
@@charleshetrick3152 the grade part i cant answer since im not familiar with that yet